บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Building Better Communication in the Workplace with Pam Hurley

like different motivations, different Ethan Young: 00:03:55 level of kind of commitment to the Pam Hurley: 00:03:58 yes, professionals are so much more devoted. Pam Hurley: 00:04:02 If you will, are interested or best invested is a better word. Pam Hurley: 00:04:05 There's so much more vested because a lot of them understand that. Pam Hurley: 00:04:09 If I don't learn to write well, I'm not going to be promoted. Pam Hurley: 00:04:12 Right? Pam Hurley: 00:04:13 So promotion research has shown that people who can communicate Pam Hurley: 00:04:16 well, or more likely to, they make more money than people who can't. Pam Hurley: 00:04:20 Um, I love my students don't get me wrong, but what they say about the Pam Hurley: 00:04:25 politics of academia is 100 percent true, but working with the clients Pam Hurley: 00:04:30 we work with over the past 30 years. Pam Hurley: 00:04:33 Has just been it's just been amazing and, you know, a lot of our clients hire us Pam Hurley: 00:04:38 again and again and again, but it's a, yeah, it's a different if it's a different Pam Hurley: 00:04:42 mindset, a student versus a professional, I think professionals understand. Pam Hurley: 00:04:45 Hey. Pam Hurley: 00:04:46 I really need this. Pam Hurley: 00:04:47 And when you're in academia, when you're a student, you're like, I don't know. Pam Hurley: 00:04:50 I, you know, you have no idea, but you don't have any experience. Ethan Young: 00:04:54 One point I was going to make here is I think it's kind of funny Ethan Young: 00:04:56 how this is almost a reversal of, you know, you hear a lot of times in school, Ethan Young: 00:05:00 like when, you know, when, when am I going to use this math or whatever? Ethan Young: 00:05:03 I feel like in this sort of technical field, it's the other thing. Ethan Young: 00:05:05 Like, when am I going to use this writing? Ethan Young: 00:05:06 So. Ethan Young: 00:05:07 It's funny to see that, you know, people, professionals do realize, cause they've Ethan Young: 00:05:12 run into situations where they do need it. Ethan Young: 00:05:14 They do see the value in it. Ethan Young: 00:05:15 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:05:16 I Pam Hurley: 00:05:16 mean, a lot of them, 90 percent of their jobs are writing. Pam Hurley: 00:05:19 If you're in any, any kind of profession where you have any kind Pam Hurley: 00:05:22 of power, you're going to be writing. Ethan Young: 00:05:24 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:05:24 Especially with communications, just, you know, with your Ethan Young: 00:05:27 coworkers, if you're in charge of a department, whatever it is, memos. Ethan Young: 00:05:31 Emails, all that kind of stuff. Ethan Young: 00:05:33 It's, it's a crucial part of being a leader or like you Ethan Young: 00:05:36 said, just being a professional. Ethan Young: 00:05:37 So, Pam Hurley: 00:05:37 right. Pam Hurley: 00:05:38 And the work from home movement has even, uh, made it make communication Pam Hurley: 00:05:43 skills even that much more important because you don't have a luxury of going Pam Hurley: 00:05:46 and saying, Hey, Todd, what's going on? Pam Hurley: 00:05:50 You know, is that pot simmering over? Pam Hurley: 00:05:52 I mean, you don't have that luxury of doing that. Pam Hurley: 00:05:55 So you have to, you have to do it in writing. Todd Miller: 00:05:57 I'm, I'm kind of curious. Todd Miller: 00:05:58 So, you know, we talk about that with the amount of writing Todd Miller: 00:06:01 that we all have to do anymore. Todd Miller: 00:06:03 And, you know, I think it's, it's really increased. Todd Miller: 00:06:06 Um, Do you think that teaching someone good writing skills also Todd Miller: 00:06:09 makes them a better speaker? Pam Hurley: 00:06:11 It can. Pam Hurley: 00:06:12 It can. Pam Hurley: 00:06:12 A lot of, yeah, a lot of what you're dealing with when, when, when speaking. Pam Hurley: 00:06:16 Are you talking about before, before an audience or just speaking one to one? Todd Miller: 00:06:20 Any of that, really. Todd Miller: 00:06:21 Just a better communicator in general, even verbally. Pam Hurley: 00:06:24 Yeah, absolutely. Pam Hurley: 00:06:25 If we're talking one on one. Pam Hurley: 00:06:27 I mean, one of the things you're dealing with when people are in front of, in Pam Hurley: 00:06:30 front of an audience, you're dealing with. Pam Hurley: 00:06:32 Nervousness and, you know, those kinds of things, which you typically don't Pam Hurley: 00:06:35 encounter in a 1, 1 to 1 communication. Pam Hurley: 00:06:38 But yeah, writing is just incredibly important. Pam Hurley: 00:06:42 And the flip side of that is reading. Pam Hurley: 00:06:43 It should be reading every day. Pam Hurley: 00:06:46 I mean, this is all research space. Pam Hurley: 00:06:47 This isn't anything I'm making up, but you wouldn't know if I were Pam Hurley: 00:06:50 making it, but I'm not a promise. Ethan Young: 00:06:53 Um, one thing you mentioned I wanted to touch on too, is you talked Ethan Young: 00:06:57 about, you know, you served a lot of different clients over the, over the Ethan Young: 00:07:00 years and I'm sure it's a wide variety. Ethan Young: 00:07:02 I know it's probably a lot of technical people in the technical field, but Ethan Young: 00:07:05 have you noticed any sort of like common experiences or common lessons Ethan Young: 00:07:10 that they learn when they start doing this kind of thing that really Ethan Young: 00:07:12 like seem to crop up over and over? Pam Hurley: 00:07:15 You mean when they start writing for industry or yeah, Ethan Young: 00:07:18 yeah, when they start, I guess like working with Hurley Wright? Pam Hurley: 00:07:21 Yeah, so 1 of the things that we see a lot with Pam Hurley: 00:07:24 professionals is they are confused. Pam Hurley: 00:07:28 Oftentimes when they go

into an organization about expectations. Pam Hurley: 00:07:32 Because management typically doesn't do a very good job of setting expectations Pam Hurley: 00:07:37 for this is how we want you to write. Pam Hurley: 00:07:39 These are the expectations and then you have the review process, Pam Hurley: 00:07:43 which is not a process at all. Pam Hurley: 00:07:44 But just oftentimes just people making, making random comments that Pam Hurley: 00:07:50 may not have anything to do with. Pam Hurley: 00:07:52 With the document at all, so it, it becomes, it's a very difficult thing. Pam Hurley: 00:07:56 We, I'll give you an example. Pam Hurley: 00:07:58 So we are, we are now doing what we call communication audits Pam Hurley: 00:08:02 where we go into companies. Pam Hurley: 00:08:03 We look at their documents, we look at their processes, Pam Hurley: 00:08:06 we'll look at their tools. Pam Hurley: 00:08:07 And we're, we just finished with a huge multinational. Pam Hurley: 00:08:12 Healthcare company. Pam Hurley: 00:08:14 And the writers, I'm just, it's mind blowing to me that they get anything done Pam Hurley: 00:08:20 because the writers have no standards. Pam Hurley: 00:08:22 There's no. Pam Hurley: 00:08:23 No deadlines, they say they spend half their time looking for information Pam Hurley: 00:08:28 reports to reports that they can mimic, or whatever the case may be. Pam Hurley: 00:08:32 And you think about, and we showed them the ROI on that. Pam Hurley: 00:08:36 I mean, they're wasting they're wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Pam Hurley: 00:08:40 On writing and reviewing just because people are sitting around looking Pam Hurley: 00:08:44 for, they're trying to find stuff. Pam Hurley: 00:08:47 Yeah, so it's just, but companies don't think about that. Pam Hurley: 00:08:49 You know, they look at well, we're inefficient. Pam Hurley: 00:08:51 You know, we're not making the widget fast enough. Pam Hurley: 00:08:54 Okay. Pam Hurley: 00:08:54 Well, why? Pam Hurley: 00:08:55 Maybe it's the, maybe it's whatever the case may be, but, but writing Pam Hurley: 00:09:00 has a real ROI as does reviewing. Pam Hurley: 00:09:02 And if you're not doing it, right, you're losing a ton. Pam Hurley: 00:09:05 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:09:06 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:09:06 You're losing a ton of money. Pam Hurley: 00:09:07 This company, we figured out just by cutting their review process by 25%, Pam Hurley: 00:09:11 they could save a quarter of a million dollars a year just on that alone. Pam Hurley: 00:09:15 That's huge. Ethan Young: 00:09:16 Yeah, absolutely. Ethan Young: 00:09:17 And that's Pam Hurley: 00:09:18 one department. Pam Hurley: 00:09:19 That's not even a company. Pam Hurley: 00:09:20 That's one department. Ethan Young: 00:09:21 And I think right there, I mean, that just tells us that, uh, I Ethan Young: 00:09:24 mean, I don't know for sure, but I could see one of the big causes for this being, Ethan Young: 00:09:28 especially in a bigger organization, like writing not being made a priority or sort Ethan Young: 00:09:32 of a thing that just kind of develops along the way as the company goes. Ethan Young: 00:09:35 And I mean, obviously you're probably going to know better than I am, but Ethan Young: 00:09:39 I could see that being pretty prone to bureaucracy and different people Ethan Young: 00:09:42 coming in at different positions. Ethan Young: 00:09:44 And it's just sort of this evolving. Ethan Young: 00:09:46 Labyrinth of labyrinth of existing stuff. Ethan Young: 00:09:50 And yeah, Pam Hurley: 00:09:50 you're 100 percent correct on that. Pam Hurley: 00:09:52 That's one of the reasons we, I love working with startups because startups, Pam Hurley: 00:09:56 it's an opportunity for them to start getting some things in place so that Pam Hurley: 00:10:00 by the time they are, you know, are big and are, are continuing to grow, they Pam Hurley: 00:10:04 already have all this stuff in place. Pam Hurley: 00:10:06 And they don't have to go back and try to fix something that Pam Hurley: 00:10:09 could have been standardized at the, at the very beginning. Pam Hurley: 00:10:13 But yeah, you're, you're 100, 100 percent right. Pam Hurley: 00:10:15 And then anyway, I can, I can talk for hours about this, but yes, that's, Pam Hurley: 00:10:19 you're 100 percent right about that. Ethan Young: 00:10:20 Gotcha. Pam Hurley: 00:10:21 And I'm sorry to keep saying 100 percent cause that's terrible. Pam Hurley: 00:10:24 But anyway, it's a cliche and I apologize. Todd Miller: 00:10:26 And it's not our challenge word either. Todd Miller: 00:10:28 I Pam Hurley: 00:10:28 was going to say the same thing, that's not the challenge Ethan Young: 00:10:32 word. Ethan Young: 00:10:32 Okay. Ethan Young: 00:10:32 Um, you mentioned a little bit earlier, but you're talking about, Ethan Young: 00:10:35 um, the processes that you use to kind of teach teacher students. Ethan Young: 00:10:41 And I pulled out a passage from your site is our success in creating long Ethan Young: 00:10:46 term improvement is based on science and research based curriculum and Ethan Young: 00:10:49 a focus on readability studies. Ethan Young: 00:10:50 Now, there's a couple of things there to break down, but could you talk about the Ethan Young: 00:10:53 science and research based stuff first? Pam Hurley: 00:10:55 Sure, everything we teach is based on readability Pam Hurley: 00:10:59 studies and what we know. Pam Hurley: 00:10:59 So, this is, this is a, an evolving field and there's actually people who study Pam Hurley: 00:11:04 how readers read and that kind of thing. Pam Hurley: 00:11:06 So, everything we teach is based on that, as you're probably very aware, how Pam Hurley: 00:11:11 readers read has changed

dramatically over the past 5 years, 6, you know, right? Pam Hurley: 00:11:16 But what happens is when so, so in most organizations, and for most. Pam Hurley: 00:11:24 Professionals, they glom on to grammar rules, right? Pam Hurley: 00:11:28 They are so concerned about grammar. Pam Hurley: 00:11:30 Grammar has no bearing on whether your document is readable or Pam Hurley: 00:11:34 effective, no bearing whatsoever. Pam Hurley: 00:11:37 You can have a document that's 100 percent correct and it's just Pam Hurley: 00:11:40 incomprehensible, unreadable. Pam Hurley: 00:11:43 And so everything we teach is based on the science of reading. Pam Hurley: 00:11:46 What do, what does research tell us about this? Pam Hurley: 00:11:49 And we keep up to date on that because How readers read is changed. Pam Hurley: 00:11:53 How you structure a sentence, how you structure a paragraph, right? Pam Hurley: 00:11:57 Those things matter, because readers are incredibly intolerant. Pam Hurley: 00:12:01 They don't read. Pam Hurley: 00:12:03 I mean, I think we all, I call this the Google Syndrome, which is not Pam Hurley: 00:12:06 the, I just made this up, but it's this idea that I go on Google, I see Pam Hurley: 00:12:11 a headline or a first sentence that makes sense to me, click, I'm done. Pam Hurley: 00:12:15 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:12:16 Right? Pam Hurley: 00:12:16 So, so a lot of it is this kind of quick fix, Kind of idea and for a lot of people Pam Hurley: 00:12:22 that that are that glom onto these grammar rules is because there's comfort in that. Pam Hurley: 00:12:28 Right? Pam Hurley: 00:12:28 I know that I can't do this. Pam Hurley: 00:12:31 I can't do that. Pam Hurley: 00:12:32 I can't can't do the other. Pam Hurley: 00:12:33 But 1 of the things we really focus on is how do you because writing Pam Hurley: 00:12:36 is problem solving on paper. Pam Hurley: 00:12:38 I mean. Pam Hurley: 00:12:39 Philosophers, people have said that for, you know, for centuries, and so Pam Hurley: 00:12:44 what we teach people is how do you, how do you take your problem solving Pam Hurley: 00:12:47 skills, which you already had, you're already a brilliant problem solver. Pam Hurley: 00:12:50 We know this, right? Pam Hurley: 00:12:52 Because if you weren't, you wouldn't have this job that you have. Pam Hurley: 00:12:55 And how do you take that and apply that to writing and try Pam Hurley: 00:12:59 to solve the writing problem? Pam Hurley: 00:13:02 Instead of instead of focusing on the grammar issues, writing Pam Hurley: 00:13:05 is a problem that has to be solved and for the professionals. Pam Hurley: 00:13:09 We work with that really clicks and it makes it easier for them because Pam Hurley: 00:13:12 they can relax about about the rules and really start thinking about. Pam Hurley: 00:13:17 Okay. Pam Hurley: 00:13:17 This is how I solve a problem. Pam Hurley: 00:13:19

This is how I'm going to solve the writing pump. Pam Hurley: 00:13:21 They're exactly the same. Ethan Young: 00:13:22 Well, I think a lot of that is just being able to express Ethan Young: 00:13:25 what you already know, you know, kind of giving them that tool to be able Ethan Young: 00:13:30 to share that information or that discovery or that data or whatever. Ethan Young: 00:13:33 So, and I think, yeah, confession, I'm a writer myself and something I think about Ethan Young: 00:13:38 a lot is readability and like my audience. Ethan Young: 00:13:41 And I think in any kind of writing that's really vital, but especially Ethan Young: 00:13:45 in something like this, where it's a technical or professional piece or Ethan Young: 00:13:48 whatever, you have to really think about how clearly can I communicate it? Ethan Young: 00:13:52 How. Ethan Young: 00:13:53 In depth, am I getting with jargon and terms and stuff? Ethan Young: 00:13:55 How can I make this understandable for my audience? Ethan Young: 00:13:57 And for a lot of different professional kinds of writing, that's going to change Ethan Young: 00:14:00 pretty drastically depending on who's reading it and who you're writing it for. Ethan Young: 00:14:04 So, Pam Hurley: 00:14:04 well, exactly. Pam Hurley: 00:14:05 And you can have multiple readers as well. Pam Hurley: 00:14:07 That's something that we run into quite a bit with the professionals we work Pam Hurley: 00:14:10 with is that they have multiple readers. Pam Hurley: 00:14:12 And so we help them understand if you have multiple readers, Pam Hurley: 00:14:15 how do you write to those three? Pam Hurley: 00:14:17 Tears of readers. Ethan Young: 00:14:19 Yeah, I know. Ethan Young: 00:14:20 One of the most common ways it's broken down is based on kind of a grade Ethan Young: 00:14:23 level or like a level of academic, whatever competence for, you know, Ethan Young: 00:14:29 how, how readable a document is. Ethan Young: 00:14:31 That's 1 of the measures I use for some of my writing, Pam Hurley: 00:14:33 like the flesh Kincaid or the gunning fog index. Pam Hurley: 00:14:36 Yeah, we don't use those, but that's, that's 1 way to do it. Pam Hurley: 00:14:39 For sure. Pam Hurley: 00:14:39 If you're looking at grade level, there's a lot of things I don't like about that Pam Hurley: 00:14:42 tool, but, but it can be a good tool. Pam Hurley: 00:14:45 If you're trying to write to a certain. Pam Hurley: 00:14:47 A certain grade level, the problem with that, when we talk about Pam Hurley: 00:14:50 people in engineering or science or whatever, is they, they can't, Pam Hurley: 00:14:55 you know, there are certain words they're married to married to. Pam Hurley: 00:14:59 And if they use those terms, and then their, their, their Pam Hurley: 00:15:02 score is going to be sky high. Pam Hurley: 00:15:03 Well, is it really unreadable? Pam Hurley: 00:15:07 I mean, you really have to have a to read this or is it just these Pam Hurley: 00:15:10 few words that they have to. Pam Hurley: 00:15:12 That they have to use. Pam Hurley: 00:15:13 So it's, you know, I just say, take, take, take it with a grain, uh, Pam Hurley: 00:15:17 with the grain, if it works for you, that that's great, but for a lot of Pam Hurley: 00:15:19 professionals, it just doesn't work. Ethan Young: 00:15:21 Absolutely. Ethan Young: 00:15:23 I think that's a good point too. Ethan Young: 00:15:24 Cause like you said, there's some terms you just can't break down further. Ethan Young: 00:15:27 They're going to lose their meaning. Ethan Young: 00:15:28 You know, it's not going to, it may be very specific. Ethan Young: 00:15:31 It may be very technical, whatever, but that's what it is. Ethan Young: 00:15:33 You can't, Pam Hurley: 00:15:34 right. Pam Hurley: 00:15:34 And it, or, or it's what the reader expects. Pam Hurley: 00:15:37 And if you don't use it, you, like, you don't know what you're talking about. Pam Hurley: 00:15:40 Right. Pam Hurley: 00:15:40 So there's. Pam Hurley: 00:15:41 You know, two sides to that coin for sure. Ethan Young: 00:15:43 I think that's a great point. Ethan Young: 00:15:45 Um, I guess this kind of tailors with the question I was going to ask Ethan Young: 00:15:49 later, but we brought up, you brought up Google searches and that kind of Ethan Young: 00:15:53 mentality of just going for that first. Ethan Young: 00:15:55 And I don't know, you've probably experienced it already, I'm Ethan Young: 00:15:58 sure, but it's been in the news. Ethan Young: 00:15:59 Google has switched to this sort of AI summary for its new search results. Ethan Young: 00:16:04 Those come up first. Ethan Young: 00:16:05 And I guess that leads me to ask, what was your gut reaction to this whole sort Ethan Young: 00:16:10 of wave of generative AI and how does. Ethan Young: 00:16:12 How does Hurley writes kind of deal with that? Ethan Young: 00:16:14 Use it. Ethan Young: 00:16:15 You know, what's the approach? Pam Hurley: 00:16:16 AI is, AI is the shiny new object. Ethan Young: 00:16:21 Mm-Hmm. Ethan Young: 00:16:21 . Pam Hurley: Right. Ethan Young: 00:16:22 And so there's a lot of, I remember when, oh copywriters, Ethan Young: 00:16:25 they're gonna lose their jobs. Ethan Young: 00:16:26 Writers are gonna lose their job, blah, blah. Ethan Young: 00:16:28 You know, okay, no, that's not gonna happen. Ethan Young: 00:16:32 'cause you still have to have human beings who can think. Ethan Young: 00:16:35 Right. Ethan Young: 00:16:36 And problem solving those kinds of things. Ethan Young: 00:16:38 We offer a class on writing in AI. Ethan Young: 00:16:41 How do you use AI for prompting and things like that? Ethan Young: 00:16:45 AI, at this point, cannot replace human thinking or human thought. Ethan

Young: 00:16:50 It can't replace the writing you do. Ethan Young: 00:16:52 Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that, Oh, if I use Ethan Young: 00:16:56 AI, then I can stop writing. Ethan Young: 00:16:58 I don't have to write anymore. Ethan Young: 00:16:59 Because, I mean, let's face it. Ethan Young: 00:17:00 A lot of the folks we work with don't, they don't like writing. Ethan Young: 00:17:03 They don't go, Yeah, this is the best thing I've ever done. Ethan Young: 00:17:06 So, you can use it. Ethan Young: 00:17:08 But you have to be strategic in how you use it. Ethan Young: 00:17:11 Right, so I'm not saying is terrible. Ethan Young: 00:17:14 It's not. Ethan Young: 00:17:15 It's not terrible at all, but you have to know how to use it. Ethan Young: 00:17:18 Do I believe that it's going to replace writing? Ethan Young: 00:17:20 I do not. Ethan Young: 00:17:21 And here's another reason why I don't is because if you have a subject Ethan Young: 00:17:25 matter expert in an organization, um, And that subject matter expert Ethan Young: 00:17:28 is writing, using AI or whatever. Ethan Young: 00:17:31 Somebody still has to review that writing. Ethan Young: 00:17:34 Somebody has to make sure that it's technically accurate and readable Ethan Young: 00:17:38 and all those kinds of fun things. Ethan Young: 00:17:40 So I think in a lot of cases, what you're really doing is you're Ethan Young: 00:17:43 adding to the burden, instead of just getting the SME to write it. Ethan Young: 00:17:47 You're getting AI to write, and the SME's gotta review it, and the reviewers Ethan Young: 00:17:51 gotta review it, and then you've got to go back and make, and I think a lot of Ethan Young: 00:17:54 cases start, start, start from scratch. Ethan Young: 00:17:56 And I've experimented with myself. Ethan Young: 00:17:59 I wrote a post on LinkedIn, and you know, they had the, oh, Ethan Young: 00:18:01 you know, let AI rewrite this. Ethan Young: 00:18:04 And so I did, and it was crap. Ethan Young: 00:18:07 It wasn't my voice. Ethan Young: 00:18:09 It wasn't something that I would, you know, it's just like, really, some of it Ethan Young: 00:18:12 is so sophomoric, which is not, The word of the day, by the way, some of it is so Ethan Young: 00:18:18 soft more that it's just like, really? Ethan Young: 00:18:20 So I'm not, I'm not concerned. Ethan Young: 00:18:23 Do I think it's a good tool? Ethan Young: 00:18:25 Absolutely. Ethan Young: 00:18:25 Grammarly is great. Ethan Young: 00:18:26 You know, Grammarly for correcting your spelling or great tool. Ethan Young: 00:18:30 But I'm not concerned about it in terms of replacing writing at this point. Ethan Young: 00:18:35 I think it's got a long way to go. Ethan Young: 00:18:37 I agree. Ethan Young: 00:18:37 I, I do use Grammarly myself to check a lot of my documents. Ethan Young: 00:18:41 It's just really helpful, but I'm in the same boat as you. Ethan Young: 00:18:44 I think it's interesting. Ethan Young: 00:18:46 AI kind of makes different mistakes than people do. Ethan Young: 00:18:48 Like it. Ethan Young: 00:18:49 It messes up on some things that like people would never mess up on, Ethan Young: 00:18:52 but you know, it could be, it can be a little bit more like technically Ethan Young: 00:18:55 perfect where it won't make as many grammatical mistakes as some people, but Pam Hurley: 00:18:58 there was something recently, somebody said that it was telling Pam Hurley: 00:19:02 people to feed rocks to their plants. Pam Hurley: 00:19:05 What did anybody see that? Pam Hurley: 00:19:07 It was like things that it was saying, and then I saw this, this Pam Hurley: 00:19:10 one thing where this, this person was in this debate about the year. Pam Hurley: 00:19:14 And it was like, it's 2023. Pam Hurley: 00:19:16 No, it's not. Pam Hurley: 00:19:16 It's 2020. Pam Hurley: 00:19:17 You know, it's just like, really? Pam Hurley: 00:19:19 So, Ethan Young: 00:19:20 yeah, the one I saw was something about a person was trying to Ethan Young: 00:19:24 make a pizza at home and they couldn't get the cheese to stick to their pizza. Ethan Young: 00:19:27 So it advised them to use glue to stick the pizza. Pam Hurley: 00:19:29 Yeah, it's a great idea. Pam Hurley: 00:19:33 Why not use glue? Pam Hurley: 00:19:35 Why not? Ethan Young: 00:19:38 So, yeah, it's definitely got a ways to go, but. Ethan Young: 00:19:42 I, I think you're, I think you're smart to, and I think it's great Ethan Young: 00:19:45 that you have a specific class for it to, you know, kind of address that. Ethan Young: 00:19:50 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:19:50 It's out there. Ethan Young: 00:19:51 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:19:51 This is what it can do. Ethan Young: 00:19:52 And we'd rather, you know, kind of empower you to use it instead of Ethan Young: 00:19:57 either use it as sort of a replacement or a crutch for what you could Ethan Young: 00:20:01 develop with your own writing skills. Pam Hurley: 00:20:03 Right. Pam Hurley: 00:20:03 Because yeah, it's, it's a good tool. Pam Hurley: 00:20:04 I mean, and you can use it, but you have to know what you're Pam Hurley: 00:20:07 doing, you know, and some of these regular regulated industries. Pam Hurley: 00:20:11 I don't know if it's ever going to happen because apparently if they're a closed Pam Hurley: 00:20:14 loop and all the, you know, power it takes and all that other kind of fun stuff. Pam Hurley: 00:20:18 And I'm not, I don't teach the class. Pam Hurley: 00:20:19 I'm not an expert on it. Pam Hurley: 00:20:20 And one of our, uh, one of our other consultants does, you know, still, I Pam Hurley: 00:20:25 think we're, we're probably a ways away. Ethan Young: 00:20:27 That's a good point, actually. Ethan Young: 00:20:28 I mean,

especially in some technical industries, maybe, you know, working for Ethan Young: 00:20:33 the government or whatever, some of that information that you'd have to put in, Ethan Young: 00:20:36 you can't, it would be a huge security risk to put that into something that you Ethan Young: 00:20:41 don't have all the Ability to control. Ethan Young: 00:20:43 So, I mean, Pam Hurley: 00:20:44 you think about data breaches now, right? Pam Hurley: 00:20:46 Which, which occur almost daily. Pam Hurley: 00:20:48 I mean, how many times do you get? Pam Hurley: 00:20:49 Oh, well, sorry, your social security number got out again. Pam Hurley: 00:20:52 Sorry, you know, that kind of thing. Pam Hurley: 00:20:53 And you think about that and you think about proprietary information, Pam Hurley: 00:20:58 uh, like, you know, we do a lot of with pharma companies, a Pam Hurley: 00:21:00 lot of proprietary information. Pam Hurley: 00:21:02 Uh, aerospace, those kinds of organizations, I don't know how willing Pam Hurley: 00:21:07 they're going to be to just stick it out there and hope for the best. Ethan Young: 00:21:10 So you mentioned the AI course. Ethan Young: 00:21:12 What are some of the other courses that Hurley Writes Ethan Young: 00:21:14 offers that for professionals? Pam Hurley: 00:21:16 Some of the most popular courses, we have a Pam Hurley: 00:21:18 writing for engineers course. Pam Hurley: 00:21:20 We do technical writing. Pam Hurley: 00:21:22 Um, we have a course on writing deviations. Pam Hurley: 00:21:25 Um, which a lot of, uh, so that's pharma companies manufacturing when Pam Hurley: 00:21:30 something goes wrong, they have to be able to, um, to write about it. Pam Hurley: 00:21:34 So that if they get audited, or if, you know, the real goal is so that management Pam Hurley: 00:21:39 can, um, you know, can repair it. Pam Hurley: 00:21:41 And and so we do how to build better PowerPoints. Pam Hurley: 00:21:45 We have presentations courses. Pam Hurley: 00:21:48 Pretty much anything, anything you can think of. Pam Hurley: 00:21:50 But a lot of our clients now are going, you know, we're funneling Pam Hurley: 00:21:54 into, into the communication audit. Pam Hurley: 00:21:56 So that we can figure out what they need and it's at a lower low price point. Pam Hurley: 00:22:02 And so we go in and we do this analysis and then we provide them Pam Hurley: 00:22:05 with this roadmap and they can do whatever they want to with the roadmap. Pam Hurley: 00:22:08 They can hire us. Pam Hurley: 00:22:09 They can do it in house. Pam Hurley: 00:22:10 They can go with another vendor. Pam Hurley: 00:22:11 They can do whatever they want. Pam Hurley: 00:22:12 But we do this deep dive in this analysis on how much money they're wasting where Pam Hurley: 00:22:17 they are now, where they want to be, how to get there and the whole thing. Pam Hurley: 00:22:20 And that's been, um. Pam Hurley: 00:22:23 Very, very popular, very eye opening. Pam Hurley: 00:22:25 It's been eye opening for us to, to be quite honest with you. Pam Hurley: 00:22:27 And some of the, some of the money and time that some of these large companies Pam Hurley: 00:22:32 are wasting, and they're not even aware of it because typically they come and Pam Hurley: 00:22:36 say, oh, we want a writing course. Pam Hurley: 00:22:37 We'll say, well, let's do this audit. Pam Hurley: 00:22:38 1st, let's see if that's really what you need. Pam Hurley: 00:22:40 That may be what you need. Pam Hurley: 00:22:41 You may be 100 percent right. Pam Hurley: 00:22:43 But sometimes it's not, and people often overlook the reviewers, and Pam Hurley: 00:22:47 what the reviewers are doing and not doing, and sometimes the reviewers Pam Hurley: 00:22:51 are just as much a part of the writing problem as the writers themselves. Pam Hurley: 00:22:55 But nobody talks about the reviewers. Ethan Young: 00:22:57 So can you just, so like, if I guess I'll say, could you run us Ethan Young: 00:23:01 through what, like a typical, so like, let's say a company does a communications Ethan Young: 00:23:05 audit and works through a course with you as their like follow up, is it just Ethan Young: 00:23:08 usually a one time like kind of here's the course for the people that need it or. Pam Hurley: 00:23:13 No, it's a whole program. Pam Hurley: 00:23:15 We put into a whole program, the communication audit, Pam Hurley: 00:23:18 they go through the program. Pam Hurley: 00:23:19 We do, you know, we do the webinars. Pam Hurley: 00:23:22 We have videos. Pam Hurley: 00:23:23 We have all this. Pam Hurley: 00:23:24 You know, uh, refresher webinars, all these tools that we put in Pam Hurley: 00:23:28 place, we help them revise their templates and a lot of companies. Pam Hurley: 00:23:35 We've got templates and then you look at it. Pam Hurley: 00:23:38 Does anybody use them? Pam Hurley: 00:23:40 We don't know. Pam Hurley: 00:23:41 Okay. Pam Hurley: 00:23:41 Well, if you don't know, people are using them. Pam Hurley: 00:23:43 How do you know how useful that I was talking to a client recently? Pam Hurley: 00:23:47 And I said, do you have templates? Pam Hurley: 00:23:48 And he said, yeah, and I said, are they useful? Pam Hurley: 00:23:51 Because I don't know, but we, we just redid them. Pam Hurley: 00:23:53 And I said, Oh, why, why, why'd you redo them? Pam Hurley: 00:23:55 And he goes. Pam Hurley: 00:23:57 I don't know. Pam Hurley: 00:23:57 I don't know. Pam Hurley: 00:24:00 So they redid them based on some kind of a hunch without having any Pam Hurley: 00:24:05 data about maybe the original did. Pam Hurley: 00:24:07 What was perfectly fine. Pam Hurley: 00:24:10 Right, but they don't, but they don't know. Pam Hurley: 00:24:11 So what we do is we give them data, right? Pam

Hurley: 00:24:14 So that they can, they can figure out how to move forward and Pam Hurley: 00:24:17 whether it's a writing class. Pam Hurley: 00:24:18 And what do you need in the writing class? Pam Hurley: 00:24:19 Maybe your folks need coaching. Pam Hurley: 00:24:21 Right maybe you need refresher webinar. Pam Hurley: 00:24:23 So we check in with them as a 6 month program and then we do a post audit to Pam Hurley: 00:24:28 figure out where they started and where they and and and where they wound up. Pam Hurley: 00:24:32 So it's a whole it's a whole program. Pam Hurley: 00:24:33 They don't have to do that. Pam Hurley: 00:24:34 People can just, you know, some companies just want to write in class. Pam Hurley: 00:24:36 That's fine too. Pam Hurley: 00:24:37 But if they want to see long term improvement. Pam Hurley: 00:24:41 Then the communication audit is, is what I highly suggest. Ethan Young: 00:24:45 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:24:45 And my next question is going to be about follow up because I'm sure like, like you Ethan Young: 00:24:50 said, for this to really stick, people need to see, like, make the change and Ethan Young: 00:24:54 then continue to keep that change up and continue to actively work on their Ethan Young: 00:24:59 writing and, you know, try to improve it. Ethan Young: 00:25:01 So. Pam Hurley: 00:25:01 Well, right. Pam Hurley: 00:25:02 And management has to be involved in that as well. Pam Hurley: 00:25:04 You can't just put people on a writing course and then go, Pam Hurley: 00:25:06 okay, well, they're fixed. Pam Hurley: 00:25:08 And then the reviewers don't support it and management doesn't support it. Pam Hurley: 00:25:11 And you can't. Pam Hurley: 00:25:13 Everybody has to everybody's got a dog in the fight. Pam Hurley: 00:25:16 Right and so, you know, one of the things I talk about when I teach a class is. Pam Hurley: 00:25:22 Every document has your name on it, whether it has your name on it or not. Pam Hurley: 00:25:26 It's got to be a collaborative process. Pam Hurley: 00:25:27 You have to give your writers time and space to write and to Pam Hurley: 00:25:30 think, because writing is thinking on paper, as I said earlier. Pam Hurley: 00:25:34 And when you're constantly, it's a constant time crush, we've got to get this Pam Hurley: 00:25:37 done, we've got to get this out the door. Pam Hurley: 00:25:40 You're not, you're, you're crazy if you're expecting good, good product. Pam Hurley: 00:25:46 You're not going to get good product from that. Pam Hurley: 00:25:48 So there has to be time and space. Pam Hurley: 00:25:50 And so those are some of the things we talked to management Pam Hurley: 00:25:53 about is how do you do that? Pam Hurley: 00:25:55 It doesn't have to be like, Oh, you know, Sue sitting in her chair, Pam Hurley: 00:25:58 just gazing out the window all day. Pam Hurley: 00:26:00 That's not what we're talking about, but there are ways to incorporate Pam Hurley: 00:26:03 these things so that you do produce a better product or so that your Pam Hurley: 00:26:06 writers do produce a better product. Ethan Young: 00:26:08 Um, what kind of feedback have you gotten on these writing courses Ethan Young: 00:26:11 and these programs from companies? Pam Hurley: 00:26:13 Well, we've been in business for 35 years. Ethan Young: 00:26:17 I think that says what it needs to say, Pam Hurley: 00:26:19 and it is a good, it is a long time and I started when I was 10, Pam Hurley: 00:26:24 as you can tell by my looking at my face, but, um, you know, and the majority Pam Hurley: 00:26:29 of our clients are repeat clients. Pam Hurley: 00:26:31 So, and when we get good, and you can look at our, you know, our, our, uh, Pam Hurley: 00:26:36 our website has a lot of testimonials on there, but I'm very proud of the work. Pam Hurley: 00:26:40 We do. Pam Hurley: 00:26:41 I'm very, um, it would devastate me to be quite honest with you. Pam Hurley: 00:26:46 If I had a client come back and said, that was the worst. Pam Hurley: 00:26:48 Thing we've ever done, I would be, I would be devastated. Pam Hurley: 00:26:52 I take a lot of pride. Pam Hurley: 00:26:53 I ran it myself for the 1st, 20 years. Pam Hurley: 00:26:55 Now we have a team, but I would just be I would just be devastated. Pam Hurley: 00:27:00 That would just that would that would be beyond anything. Pam Hurley: 00:27:03 I could I could bear because I take a lot of pride in what I do. Pam Hurley: 00:27:06 We're very customer customer focused. Pam Hurley: 00:27:10 And I believe very strongly in what we do. Pam Hurley: 00:27:11 And I believe in, you know, the curriculum that we offer is very unique and. Pam Hurley: 00:27:16 Anyway, we're very, um, very engaged with our clients. Pam Hurley: 00:27:20 I Ethan Young: 00:27:20 guess one last question I have for you before Ethan Young: 00:27:22 we get close to the end here. Ethan Young: 00:27:23 Um, is there like a really common sort of like, I guess I should say, like, Ethan Young: 00:27:28 what's one tip you would give any technical writer or whatever just like Ethan Young: 00:27:32 a real easy, like, you can look at this. Ethan Young: 00:27:34 This is a great thing to, like, just immediately, you know, whatever, Ethan Young: 00:27:37 regardless of your skill level, like, just kind of implement this Ethan Young: 00:27:40 and this will help your writing. Pam Hurley: 00:27:41 Slash and burn. Ethan Young: 00:27:42 Okay. Pam Hurley: 00:27:43 Do you want to know what it is? Ethan Young: 00:27:44 Yeah, I do. Ethan Young: 00:27:45 I mean, I have an idea, but for anybody who doesn't. Pam Hurley: 00:27:49 Go through. Pam Hurley: 00:27:50 I mean, this is advice has been given by. Pam Hurley: 00:27:53 Authors throughout the years. Pam Hurley: 00:27:54 I mean, uh,

you know, whatever sentence you're in love with Pam Hurley: 00:27:57 is a sentence you should cut. Pam Hurley: 00:27:58 I can't remember who said that. Pam Hurley: 00:28:00 I think it was Twain, was it Mark Twain who said that? Pam Hurley: 00:28:02 I can't remember now, but anyway, just, you gotta be brutal, man. Pam Hurley: 00:28:06 You gotta go in and you just got, you have to be brutal. Pam Hurley: 00:28:09 And most people aren't, they just love every single word that they've included. Pam Hurley: 00:28:12 And even if it's not logical and even if everything doesn't fit Pam Hurley: 00:28:16 together, so you gotta be brutal. Pam Hurley: 00:28:18 You gotta go in there and just, we call it slash and burn, get rid of it. Ethan Young: 00:28:21 I like it. Ethan Young: 00:28:21 Poetic. Pam Hurley: 00:28:22 Yeah, well, you know, if it adds, like, people will Pam Hurley: 00:28:24 say, you know, in the future. Pam Hurley: 00:28:25 Okay, well, I can probably tell by the verb tense it's going to be in the future. Pam Hurley: 00:28:29 Anywho, but that's, that's, that's my recommendation. Pam Hurley: 00:28:32 Slash and burn. Todd Miller: 00:28:33 Yeah, that's a great one. Todd Miller: 00:28:34 Ethan has edited some of my stuff, and I can tell you firsthand, he's Todd Miller: 00:28:37 really good at slashing and burning. Ethan Young: 00:28:40 And for all good reasons, the one I've always heard Ethan Young: 00:28:43 is, I think it's Stephen King calls it, he says, kill your darlings. Pam Hurley: 00:28:46 Yes. Pam Hurley: 00:28:47 That's the one I was thinking of. Pam Hurley: 00:28:48 Kill your darlings. Pam Hurley: 00:28:48 Yes. Ethan Young: 00:28:49 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:28:49 There's a, he wrote a great book called, um, I think it's called on writing. Pam Hurley: 00:28:53 Yes. Ethan Young: 00:28:53 I was gifted that when I graduated college and Ethan Young: 00:28:56 I read it a couple of times. Ethan Young: 00:28:57 It's been helpful. Ethan Young: 00:28:58 So Pam Hurley: 00:28:58 yeah, it's a good one to look out for. Pam Hurley: 00:29:01 Which is interesting coming from an author. Pam Hurley: 00:29:02 Cause they do tend to be more flowery, I guess. Pam Hurley: 00:29:06 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:29:06 A little mellifluous with her language, but Yeah, and it's Ethan Young: 00:29:10 interesting because he's such a prolific writer, but I mean, I guess a lot of his Ethan Young: 00:29:13 books are pretty, he's written a lot. Ethan Young: 00:29:14 So I guess that says something, you know? Pam Hurley: 00:29:16 Right. Pam Hurley: 00:29:16 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:29:17 Well, I think we're about ready to wrap up the Ethan Young: 00:29:19 business end of the podcast here. Ethan Young: 00:29:21 So one of our favorite things to do on construction disruption Ethan Young: 00:29:24 is called rapid fire questions. Ethan Young: 00:29:27 So this is a round of seven questions. Ethan Young: 00:29:30 Some of them are serious. Ethan Young: 00:29:30 Some of her kind of silly off the wall, but we think, are Ethan Young: 00:29:33 you up for the rapid fire? Ethan Young: 00:29:35 Sure. Ethan Young: 00:29:36 Okay. Ethan Young: 00:29:36 Awesome. Ethan Young: 00:29:37 Uh, I'll start us off then. Ethan Young: 00:29:38 I had to throw this question in here. Ethan Young: 00:29:40 Um, what's your opinion on the Oxford comma? Pam Hurley: 00:29:43 Yes. Pam Hurley: 00:29:44 Hello. Ethan Young: 00:29:44 Thank you. Ethan Young: 00:29:45 Okay. Ethan Young: 00:29:46 Good. Ethan Young: 00:29:46 Good. Ethan Young: 00:29:46 I Pam Hurley: 00:29:46 mean, they're, they're, they're how, can I elaborate or no? Ethan Young: 00:29:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:29:50 Yeah, so you heard about the lawsuit, right, up in, I think Pam Hurley: 00:29:53 it was in Maine, that these truckers, because there was no, there was no Pam Hurley: 00:29:56 Oxford comma, I can send you the link, but there was no Oxford comma, and so Pam Hurley: 00:30:00 they sued to be paid for this task. Pam Hurley: 00:30:03 Because there was no oxford comma, it wasn't seen as separate, but Pam Hurley: 00:30:05 yeah, and this is what I don't get is why would, why wouldn't you use it? Pam Hurley: 00:30:10 It makes the writing clearer. Pam Hurley: 00:30:11 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:30:11 What's the big damn deal? Pam Hurley: 00:30:13 Excuse my language. Pam Hurley: 00:30:14 I'm sorry everybody who's listening to my profanity. Ethan Young: 00:30:17 No, it's okay. Ethan Young: 00:30:18 It's okay. Ethan Young: 00:30:20 You know, sometimes you got to throw in the right word there to Pam Hurley: 00:30:22 make people pay attention. Pam Hurley: 00:30:22 Sometimes you got to throw it in there. Pam Hurley: 00:30:23 Yes, yes, to the oxford comma. Todd Miller: 00:30:25 Yeah, and it's interesting because in my. Todd Miller: 00:30:28 Over my life, we've gone back and forth, I think, three or four times Todd Miller: 00:30:32 in terms of what I was taught and, you know, Oxford comma was just ubiquitous Todd Miller: 00:30:38 and other times it was, you know, just, you don't, you don't use that. Todd Miller: 00:30:41 Um, so it's been really interesting. Todd Miller: 00:30:43 I'm glad to hear that you're on the side. Todd Miller: 00:30:45 Uh, Ethan and I are on the, okay, question number two, what one Todd Miller: 00:30:51 person would you most want to have with you on a zombie apocalypse? Todd Miller: 00:30:55 Who do you want to have on your team? Pam Hurley: 00:30:57 Oh my goodness. Pam Hurley: 00:30:59 I don't know some kind of a survivalist person. Pam Hurley: 00:31:02 I don't know any survivalist people, but that's who I would Pam Hurley: 00:31:04 want is a survivalist person. Todd Miller: 00:31:06 Who is that guy?

Todd Miller: 00:31:06 Bear, Bear Grylls or something like that? Todd Miller: 00:31:08 Oh yeah, yeah. Todd Miller: 00:31:09 Man versus wild or whatever. Pam Hurley: 00:31:11 That's a, that's a, zombies are just a freaky thing. Pam Hurley: 00:31:14 I don't know how they made that. Pam Hurley: 00:31:15 I never watched that. Pam Hurley: 00:31:16 Was it Walking Dead or whatever it was? Todd Miller: 00:31:18 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:31:18 How many seasons did that damn thing last? Pam Hurley: 00:31:20 Oh my Todd Miller: 00:31:21 goodness, a long time. Todd Miller: 00:31:22 And there have been a couple spin offs from it, too. Todd Miller: 00:31:25 I Pam Hurley: 00:31:25 mean, you're, okay, you got zombies chasing you, the end Pam Hurley: 00:31:27 is gonna, what's the story there? Pam Hurley: 00:31:29 I don't get the story, but anyway, I never watched it, so anywho. Ethan Young: 00:31:32 Fair enough. Ethan Young: 00:31:34 Um, another, uh, grammatical question here. Ethan Young: 00:31:37 What's your favorite punctuation mark? Pam Hurley: 00:31:39 Semicolon. Pam Hurley: 00:31:40 Hello? Ethan Young: 00:31:41 Okay. Pam Hurley: 00:31:41 I mean, who doesn't love a good semicolon? Ethan Young: 00:31:45 I think that's an underrated one, you know? Pam Hurley: 00:31:47 Agreed! Pam Hurley: 00:31:48 Oh my gosh, so agreed, because you can take, you can take sentences instead of Pam Hurley: 00:31:52 chopping up and putting little periods there, and you can combine them, and you Pam Hurley: 00:31:56 can use transitions, and The semicolon. Pam Hurley: 00:31:59 I should be the president of the semicolon club. Todd Miller: 00:32:02 My neighbor, sadly, had cancer a few years ago. Todd Miller: 00:32:04 Now he does have a semicolon. Todd Miller: 00:32:06 But anyway. Pam Hurley: 00:32:07 Oh, God. Pam Hurley: 00:32:08 It's Todd Miller: 00:32:08 a Pam Hurley: 00:32:09 true story, Todd Miller: 00:32:11 though. Todd Miller: 00:32:11 True story. Todd Miller: 00:32:13 Okay. Todd Miller: 00:32:13 Next one is mine. Todd Miller: 00:32:15 Um, what's a book or movie that has had an impact on you? Pam Hurley: 00:32:19 Oh, gosh. Pam Hurley: 00:32:19 I read so much all the time. Pam Hurley: 00:32:21 Um, I just, I love to read. Pam Hurley: 00:32:24 The amount, there's so many books. Pam Hurley: 00:32:26 Let me think, uh, anything by Barbara King Solver. Pam Hurley: 00:32:30 I love Barbara King Solver. Pam Hurley: 00:32:31 She's probably one of my favorite authors. Pam Hurley: 00:32:33 I read everything, but there's also Ann Patchett. Pam Hurley: 00:32:35 I love her. Pam Hurley: 00:32:36 I've just gotten through reading, uh, Jennifer Egan's The, A Pam Hurley: 00:32:40 Visit from the Goon Squad. Pam Hurley: 00:32:41 It won a Pulitzer in 2023. Pam Hurley: 00:32:43 If you've never read it, fabulous book, really, really fabulous. Pam Hurley: 00:32:46 A Visit from the Goon Squad. Pam Hurley: 00:32:48 Jennifer Egan and it won a Pulitzer in 2020. Pam Hurley: 00:32:51 I actually heard it mentioned on Jeopardy! Pam Hurley: 00:32:52 I'd never heard of it before, but it's very, very good. Pam Hurley: 00:32:56 So, I just love reading. Pam Hurley: 00:32:57 I think books are, everybody should be reading at least 15 minutes a day. Pam Hurley: 00:33:02 And that's, that again is based on Ethan Young: 00:33:04 science. Ethan Young: 00:33:05 Love it. Ethan Young: 00:33:06 What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? Pam Hurley: 00:33:08 Oh, I know what it was. Pam Hurley: 00:33:11 When I was going to get my doctorate, I guess I was, how old was I? Pam Hurley: 00:33:15 I was 35 or something. Pam Hurley: 00:33:18 And I was talking to a friend of mine. Pam Hurley: 00:33:19 I'm like, yeah, but when I graduate, I'm going to be 40 and Pam Hurley: 00:33:22 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Pam Hurley: 00:33:23 And I just don't, you know, want to get involved. Pam Hurley: 00:33:25 And she goes, you're going to be 40 anyway. Pam Hurley: 00:33:27 Regardless of whether you go get your doctorate. Pam Hurley: 00:33:29 I'm like, damn, she's 100 percent she's right about that. Pam Hurley: 00:33:34 And then that has just stuck with me. Pam Hurley: 00:33:36 You're going to grow older anyway. Pam Hurley: 00:33:38 So why not just do the things you want to do, right? Ethan Young: 00:33:41 Yeah. Ethan Young: 00:33:42 Don't let it hold you back. Ethan Young: 00:33:43 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:33:43 Don't let it hold you back. Pam Hurley: 00:33:44 I mean, you're going to, you're going to grow. Pam Hurley: 00:33:45 You're going to get old anyway. Pam Hurley: 00:33:46 I mean, tomorrow, you'll be 1 day older. Pam Hurley: 00:33:48 What's holding you back from doing the things you want to do today? Pam Hurley: 00:33:51 If it's age, that's, that's ridiculous. Todd Miller: 00:33:54 I love that. Todd Miller: 00:33:54 That is, that is great. Todd Miller: 00:33:56 So, so I'm going to ask you, I'm going to, this is not one of the questions. Todd Miller: 00:33:59 Um, I realize you work with clients from all over. Todd Miller: 00:34:03 Where, where are you based out of? Pam Hurley: 00:34:04 We're, we're in Charlotte, North Carolina. Todd Miller: 00:34:06 Charlotte. Todd Miller: 00:34:07 Okay. Todd Miller: 00:34:07 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:34:08 Well, we, we go all over the country. Todd Miller: 00:34:09 Very good. Todd Miller: 00:34:11 Okay. Todd Miller: 00:34:11 Next, uh, next to last question. Todd Miller: 00:34:14 Um, how often do you notice your, or how often do you find yourself noticing typos? Pam Hurley: 00:34:19 Oh, I always notice typos. Todd Miller: 00:34:21 Do you find it harder to watch to find them in your Todd Miller: 00:34:23 own writing or maybe you don't have any in your

own writing? Pam Hurley: 00:34:26 I'm perfect. Pam Hurley: 00:34:26 I don't have any. Pam Hurley: 00:34:27 Well, Todd Miller: 00:34:27 that's good. Todd Miller: 00:34:28 God bless Pam Hurley: 00:34:29 you. Pam Hurley: 00:34:29 Instead of typos. Pam Hurley: 00:34:30 What I'm always focused on is like the misuse of a word or words. Pam Hurley: 00:34:37 I'm always pointing that out to people and they're like, people will misuse Pam Hurley: 00:34:41 only, you know, we only got here yet. Pam Hurley: 00:34:44 You know, it's just like, and you know what I've just, I've, you Pam Hurley: 00:34:48 know, I've, I've begun to realize that I'm the only person who cares. Pam Hurley: 00:34:51 And so I just need to stop because nobody cared that only is misplaced 99%, Pam Hurley: 00:34:58 but I love to point that stuff out to people. Pam Hurley: 00:34:59 Look at that. Pam Hurley: 00:35:00 Can you believe they did that? Pam Hurley: 00:35:02 I can't, but nobody cares. Pam Hurley: 00:35:04 But me. Pam Hurley: 00:35:05 So anyway, but that's yeah, those are the things that I Pam Hurley: 00:35:08 really that I really focus on. Todd Miller: 00:35:10 I used to point out to people when they would say I could care less. Pam Hurley: 00:35:14 I Todd Miller: 00:35:16 just gave up on it. Pam Hurley: 00:35:20 I had a student years ago, um, and she, she Pam Hurley: 00:35:23 instead of took it for granted. Pam Hurley: 00:35:26 She wrote, took it for granted, and, you know, it's like for all Pam Hurley: 00:35:31 intents and purposes and people say all intensive purposes. Pam Hurley: 00:35:35 I mean, it's funny, but it's, it's the things you hear. Pam Hurley: 00:35:38 Anyway, I went off on a tangent on that. Pam Hurley: 00:35:41 But yeah, that kind of stuff drives me crazy. Pam Hurley: 00:35:43 It's funny. Pam Hurley: 00:35:43 But yeah, you just have to give up. Pam Hurley: 00:35:46 It's just you're fighting an uphill battle. Todd Miller: 00:35:48 That take it for granted, though, could become a saying of its own. Todd Miller: 00:35:51 Actually, that's kind of interesting. Pam Hurley: 00:35:54 I'll never forget that. Pam Hurley: 00:35:55 That had to have been 30 years ago. Pam Hurley: 00:35:57 I'll never forget that. Pam Hurley: 00:35:58 She went, take it for granted. Ethan Young: 00:36:01 All right. Ethan Young: 00:36:01 Last question here. Ethan Young: 00:36:02 Maybe a bit more serious, but what impact do you hope to have on the world? Pam Hurley: 00:36:06 Oh, that's a really good question. Pam Hurley: 00:36:07 What the impact that we hope to have on the world is that people will feel that Pam Hurley: 00:36:14 Writing is not the onerous task that they believe it is and that they understand Pam Hurley: 00:36:19 that they have the tools within them, the problem solving and the critical Pam Hurley: 00:36:23 thinking to be more effective writers. Ethan Young: 00:36:28 I think that's well stated. Ethan Young: 00:36:29 Yeah, that's, that's a vital mission. Ethan Young: 00:36:32 So, um, thank you so much for your time, Pam. Ethan Young: 00:36:36 Where can our audience find you and connect with Hurley? Ethan Young: 00:36:38 Right? Pam Hurley: 00:36:39 Yeah. Pam Hurley: 00:36:39 Thank you very much. Pam Hurley: 00:36:40 This was a lot of fun. Pam Hurley: 00:36:41 I like it when there's there's 2, um, Two hosts, that was fun. Pam Hurley: 00:36:44 Um, pam@hurleywrite. Pam Hurley: 00:36:46 com. Pam Hurley: 00:36:46 H U R L E Y W R I T E dot com isn't writing a letter. Pam Hurley: 00:36:50 You can hit me up on LinkedIn. Pam Hurley: 00:36:52 Uh, the phone number is 877 249 7483. Pam Hurley: 00:36:56 So if you have any questions at all, hit me up on LinkedIn or Pam Hurley: 00:37:02 Email me or call me or whatever. Pam Hurley: 00:37:05 So this has been a lot of fun, guys. Pam Hurley: 00:37:06 Thank you so much for having me. Ethan Young: 00:37:08 Thanks for coming on. Ethan Young: 00:37:09 And before we do end, I want to say we did all include our Ethan Young: 00:37:13 challenge words in this episode. Ethan Young: 00:37:14 So Todd, if you want to go first and say what yours was. Ethan Young: 00:37:17 Yes. Ethan Young: 00:37:18 I got to look it up. Ethan Young: 00:37:19 Mine was ubiquitous. Pam Hurley: 00:37:21 You got it in at the last minute. Pam Hurley: 00:37:22 I noticed. Pam Hurley: 00:37:23 I'm like, oh, is he going to be able to get it in? Pam Hurley: 00:37:25 And he did. Todd Miller: 00:37:26 Well, okay. Todd Miller: 00:37:26 So Ethan almost threw me too, because normally I would have done the Todd Miller: 00:37:31 first question in the rapid fire. Todd Miller: 00:37:33 He threw me. Todd Miller: 00:37:34 And so I had it all planned to work. Todd Miller: 00:37:37 Which I think I still did. Todd Miller: 00:37:38 I just had to tag onto what he was saying. Pam Hurley: 00:37:41 And that was good. Todd Miller: 00:37:42 It was good. Todd Miller: 00:37:42 Yeah. Todd Miller: 00:37:43 Um, Pam, what was your word? Pam Hurley: 00:37:45 My word was simmer, which I used twice. Pam Hurley: 00:37:48 Cause I'm an Ethan Young: 00:37:48 overachiever. Ethan Young: 00:37:52 And then, um, mine was mal, malithous, a bit harder to say almost than Ethan Young: 00:37:57 to use, but I got it in there. Todd Miller: 00:37:58 So, man, you worked it in on the fly though, too. Todd Miller: 00:38:01 I mean, you didn't really plan that. Pam Hurley: 00:38:03 He was kind of subtle. Pam Hurley: 00:38:04 Did, did you notice? Pam Hurley: 00:38:05 It was kind of like, yeah, he didn't like shout it out. Pam Hurley: 00:38:08 It was just kind of subtle. Pam Hurley: 00:38:10 I love it. Todd Miller: 00:38:11 Perfectly pronounced and everything Ethan Young: 00:38:12 was a good opportunity. Ethan Young: 00:38:14 So. Ethan Young: 00:38:16 Thanks everybody for tuning in to this episode of construction disruption with Ethan Young: 00:38:19 our guest Pam Hurley founder Hurley writes and keep an eye out for future episodes. Ethan Young: 00:38:23 We have a lot more great guests coming up. Ethan Young: 00:38:25 Um, if you enjoyed this one, leave us a review on Apple podcast or Ethan Young: 00:38:28 YouTube, but until next time, stay curious and open to innovation. Ethan Young: 00:38:31 Um, this is Isaiah industry signing off for the next episode Ethan Young: 00:38:34 of construction disruption. Intro: 00:38:38 This podcast is produced by Isaiah Industries, manufacturer of specialty Intro: 00:38:43 metal roofing and other building products.