บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep 233, Collaboration or Dominance: Which System Works Best?

a really cute miniskirt. 00:03:02.469 --> 00:03:08.654 And at 15, I was like, oh, that doesn't feel very comfortable. But I also was 15. 00:03:08.985 --> 00:03:13.386 So I wore my little miniskirt and I got the job. 00:03:13.850 --> 00:03:20.818 And then it was just a lot of flirtation from the manager. 00:03:21.983 --> 00:03:25.808 In restaurants I think it's really I don't know I haven't worked at a restaurant 00:03:25.808 --> 00:03:30.998 since I was in high school but back then there was a lot of I think unnecessary 00:03:30.998 --> 00:03:36.758 touching you know walking behind you and touching your waist and. 00:03:38.104 --> 00:03:44.959 And I remember just not being trained appropriately and so not really knowing how to do my job. 00:03:45.441 --> 00:03:51.391 What I remember most about it is just like the feeling in my body of not feeling safe. 00:03:52.651 --> 00:04:00.642 And it was, I had no, you're 100% right. I certainly didn't have the language for it. 00:04:01.338 --> 00:04:07.938 I didn't have the confidence or even the knowledge that it would be appropriate 00:04:07.938 --> 00:04:14.132 for me to say, please don't do that or no, or I need help. 00:04:16.434 --> 00:04:23.206 Yeah. Yeah, it was very uncomfortable. How long were you there? About two weeks. 00:04:25.986 --> 00:04:30.074 I decided I was probably just going to babysit for a little while longer. 00:04:30.596 --> 00:04:36.360 And then my next job, which I then had for several years, was lifeguarding. 00:04:37.365 --> 00:04:44.255 And that was actually a very different experience because as a lifeguard, 00:04:44.830 --> 00:04:48.406 you actually had a lot of authority over what was happening. 00:04:48.846 --> 00:04:53.146 And the goal was safety. And you had very explicit training, 00:04:53.146 --> 00:04:55.842 like you had to be certified in order to do it. 00:04:56.353 --> 00:04:58.541 And so I felt prepared. 00:04:59.058 --> 00:05:01.266 I felt empowered. 00:05:01.927 --> 00:05:08.256 And it is relatively independent work like usually if you're a lifeguard at 00:05:08.256 --> 00:05:12.726 a pool there's only a couple of you there and so you have a lot of autonomy 00:05:13.146 --> 00:05:16.061 in your job and a lot of responsibility with it too, 00:05:16.786 --> 00:05:20.926 and and that experience was actually very. 00:05:22.650 --> 00:05:26.376 I've never i've never thought about this before, but the Burger King experience 00:05:26.376 --> 00:05:32.246 was extremely power over and maneuver what you need to maneuver in order to 00:05:32.246 --> 00:05:34.922 access whatever safety it is you can find. 00:05:35.392 --> 00:05:40.196 And the lifeguarding experience was a lot of independence and empowerment where 00:05:40.196 --> 00:05:45.789 you worked with everyone you were there because your primary goal was safety. 00:05:46.586 --> 00:05:50.686 And if safety is the actual goal, You just operate with each other differently, 00:05:51.326 --> 00:05:56.926 than you do in a role, I think, where ultimately like revenue is the goal, 00:05:57.746 --> 00:05:59.244 right? Like selling something. 00:06:00.277 --> 00:06:03.680 It is so interesting. I mean, right, what is the goal? What do we all think 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:05.733 we're doing here? What is our primary purpose here? 00:06:06.139 --> 00:06:11.280 And I imagine that you could have a well-run Burger King where everybody is 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:14.770 rallying around and they're told the goal is customer service. 00:06:15.130 --> 00:06:18.202 Like a Chick-fil-A sort of scenario. We are going to be the best. 00:06:19.578 --> 00:06:25.650 And the systems and the safety is built into that because somebody recognizes that. 00:06:25.969 --> 00:06:30.010 But I would say with the lifeguarding, your pool's not going to be open. 00:06:30.010 --> 00:06:31.866 If safety is not number one, right? 00:06:32.133 --> 00:06:34.309 Something is going to happen, you're going to be shut down. So, 00:06:34.495 --> 00:06:39.510 like, the route to that for the management to know it is going to have to be, 00:06:40.170 --> 00:06:43.890 shorter, right, because of the job. But you could have it at the other place 00:06:43.890 --> 00:06:46.250 as well. Exactly. Exactly. 00:06:47.173 --> 00:06:51.637 And if, and this is what all of our work at Workplace Teets Institute is about, 00:06:52.044 --> 00:06:56.110 if people feel safe, if their dignity is honored, if they have psychological 00:06:56.110 --> 00:07:00.220 safety, that is actually good for business. Like at Burger King, 00:07:00.220 --> 00:07:01.670 we would have sold more burgers. 00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:07.043 Less turnover, no, yeah, the two-week. Exactly, exactly. 00:07:08.970 --> 00:07:10.980 So tell me, what did you go to university 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:17.486 for? So I originally went to university to get out of the house. 00:07:17.863 --> 00:07:21.178 And so I got a scholarship in theater. 00:07:21.665 --> 00:07:27.230 And very quickly, I realized acting was not my passion and it was not my career 00:07:27.230 --> 00:07:29.043 path and that wasn't what I wanted to do. 00:07:29.455 --> 00:07:36.450 And so I have always been very curious about human behavior, 00:07:36.750 --> 00:07:42.190 human dynamics, why it appears to be so difficult to be human. 00:07:43.250 --> 00:07:46.522 So I switched majors and studied psychology. 00:07:46.952 --> 00:07:51.370 So my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I wasn't planning. 00:07:52.270 --> 00:07:56.240 I really wasn't. I didn't have a plan. I was, but I definitely wasn't planning 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:00.494 on going in the therapeutic route. I was just curious. 00:08:01.441 --> 00:08:05.820 And then that curiosity led me to when I got right up, my first master's degree 00:08:05.820 --> 00:08:12.919 right out of undergrad was studying 15th century European history, 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:17.023 really specifically the Reformation and the Tudor family, 00:08:17.534 -->

00:08:22.686 which was all about navigating conflict. 00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:28.780 And really navigating what it means to be human as it relates to just some of 00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:32.121 the really complex aspects of human behavior. 00:08:34.008 --> 00:08:40.770 And then I went into education for a short while and then spent the first half 00:08:40.770 --> 00:08:47.911 of my career in marketing and just consistently was bumping up against, 00:08:48.646 --> 00:08:52.969 how hard it was for people to navigate conflict in the workplace. 00:08:53.381 --> 00:08:57.456 So I went back to school and got a master's in conflict management to speed resolution. 00:08:57.921 --> 00:09:03.220 And then that's when I realized there's a whole way of doing this. 00:09:04.627 --> 00:09:08.987 It's like the secret sauce to being human and nobody knows about it. 00:09:09.619 --> 00:09:15.076 And I got really passionate about that. left marketing and then started working in mediation. 00:09:15.750 --> 00:09:18.620 Through working in mediation, what, 00:09:19.560 --> 00:09:25.319 was curious for me and what was surfacing for me is that in the workplace, 00:09:25.464 --> 00:09:28.238 every conflict that I was encountering 00:09:28.627 --> 00:09:32.340 really had its roots in the system itself not functioning well. 00:09:33.184 --> 00:09:39.389 And like every conflict I had at Burger King had to do with the way the system was operating. 00:09:40.020 --> 00:09:42.340 And so I went back to school and got my Ph.D. 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:44.997 In organization systems design. 00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:54.496 To support organizations and building systems that support people in being in 00:09:54.496 --> 00:09:55.676 relationship with each other. 00:09:55.949 --> 00:10:00.506 So that when they do have conflict, which is inevitable, we can navigate this 00:10:00.506 --> 00:10:03.652 in a way that doesn't hurt us, doesn't harm us. 00:10:04.819 --> 00:10:08.209 Love it. I love it. I love a good system and I absolutely think you're right. 00:10:08.735 --> 00:10:12.526 So let me ask you this question came to mind because I do think that you're right. 00:10:12.526 --> 00:10:18.066 If we have these systems we set people up for success we have avenues all different 00:10:18.066 --> 00:10:21.076 sorts of avenues to deal with the inevitable conflict correct conflicts not 00:10:21.076 --> 00:10:23.406 the problem it's just when we don't manage it so, 00:10:24.086 --> 00:10:29.726 you have a system but it's still being executed by messy persons persons who 00:10:30.086 --> 00:10:32.735 are at all different levels of emotional intelligence or, 00:10:33.443 --> 00:10:36.846 have a health issue or somebody in their family has a health issue that just 00:10:36.846 --> 00:10:39.846 cropped up or whatever it might be or just don't sleep well the night before. 00:10:39.846 --> 00:10:48.626 So how do you see the fact of you can have a great system and still not get the results you want? 00:10:49.766 --> 00:10:50.770 Or just talk about that. 00:10:51.978 --> 00:10:55.554 So I think that I can talk about this in two different ways. 00:10:55.978 --> 00:11:03.861 So one is most organizations have not actually intentionally designed their system. 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:08.976 They've inherited something. And the thing that they inherited was also not 00:11:08.976 --> 00:11:10.183 intentionally designed. 00:11:10.646 --> 00:11:15.198 It's just this replication of creating what we've always done. 00:11:15.977 --> 00:11:21.410 Sometimes that is an expression of the founder's personality. 00:11:21.962 --> 00:11:25.073 Oftentimes it's the expression of the founder's personality. 00:11:26.775 --> 00:11:32.133 And then if it's an organization that maybe is publicly traded or is, 00:11:32.771 --> 00:11:40.670 you know, many CEOs down the road, it is a replication of just what has always been familiar. 00:11:41.179 --> 00:11:48.495 So, that tends to be very top-down command and control approach to a container. 00:11:49.319 --> 00:11:57.089 And then when you have our clients who are intentional about the system that 00:11:57.089 --> 00:11:58.149 they're going to design, like 00:11:58.149 --> 00:12:01.755 they can recognize this is what we're doing and we want to move to this. 00:12:02.133 --> 00:12:04.689 So, you have a system that is 00:12:04.689 --> 00:12:09.726 intentionally created and has all of the pillars in place to support it. 00:12:10.724 --> 00:12:14.762 Then I think it's the work of, to come back to that question, 00:12:15.142 --> 00:12:23.361 it's the work of identifying where I have authority and where I have advocacy. 00:12:24.029 --> 00:12:31.744 And being able to know what you have actual authority to do differently and, 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:39.231 where I don't have any authority to change this, but I do have voice and I can advocate for change. 00:12:39.980 --> 00:12:44.607 And what I think most of us, which is the vast majority of us, 00:12:45.094 --> 00:12:52.600 because we have been conditioned in systems that are power over and that are command and control, 00:12:53.250 --> 00:13:01.276 we have unconsciously bought into a belief that we don't actually have the power to do very much. 00:13:01.978 --> 00:13:07.859 And so I think a big piece of that is getting clear on what you do have authority, 00:13:08.428 --> 00:13:12.508 to influence and to change, and then act with that. 00:13:13.562 --> 00:13:19.451 And most conflicts that we find in the workplace is very much, 00:13:20.108 --> 00:13:24.282 they are doing this thing, and I'm going to go to someone else, 00:13:24.642 --> 00:13:30.482 HR or my boss, someone who I believe has more institutional authority to fix 00:13:30.482 --> 00:13:33.974 it for me, and then I'm going to be very dissatisfied with the result. Yeah. 00:13:36.218 --> 00:13:40.662 Yeah. So I think it's interesting. I'm imagining some listeners saying, 00:13:40.662 --> 00:13:44.099 yeah, but we don't

have a system here, right? It's just spaghetti on the wall. 00:13:44.668 --> 00:13:49.882 Every place has a system, right? And so I think the first is to recognize what is it here. 00:13:49.882 --> 00:13:54.362 So whether or not we like it, seeing what it is, maybe trying to understand 00:13:54.362 --> 00:14:00.736 or not the origin and how different behaviors are rewarded, how the system is currently working. 00:14:01.183 --> 00:14:05.148 And I think if you can identify that, that can help you figure out, 00:14:05.618 --> 00:14:09.172 if you're in leadership, what needs to change, what parts need to be changed, 00:14:09.172 --> 00:14:10.848 the whole thing needs to be scrapped or whatnot. 00:14:11.115 --> 00:14:15.282 And if you're not in leadership, to understand the lay of the land and then 00:14:15.282 --> 00:14:17.182 what it is that you want, right? 00:14:17.182 --> 00:14:21.242 So what do you have, what do you want to go towards? And as you said, 00:14:21.242 --> 00:14:26.872 then identifying what role you can play in bringing about whatever it is that 00:14:26.872 --> 00:14:28.628 you want or think should be brought about. 00:14:29.532 --> 00:14:36.592 Yes, I agree. And to get clear about what the system is, which is very amorphous, right? 00:14:36.592 --> 00:14:41.462 Like systems are individual. They're invisible, but they're also operating systems. 00:14:41.462 --> 00:14:45.003 Like they're driving everything, but we can't see it or touch it. 00:14:45.317 --> 00:14:47.348 It's like we can just sort of like feel it. 00:14:48.107 --> 00:14:54.243 So to begin a process of exploring what is the system I'm operating in, 00:14:54.771 --> 00:15:00.118 people can begin to think about what behaviors are rewarded. 00:15:01.111 --> 00:15:07.200 And in what way and what behaviors are punished and in what ways. 00:15:08.767 --> 00:15:12.767 And then what do I have authority in as it relates to that? 00:15:13.359 --> 00:15:21.002 And a lot of that then goes, how much courage can I muster to engage and recognize 00:15:21.002 --> 00:15:25.866 that I do have probably more power than I've been giving myself credit for. 00:15:26.273 --> 00:15:31.322 And I think a lot of that is really rooted in, 00:15:32.099 --> 00:15:39.180 building relationship. And most of us don't have a lot of skill in that, 00:15:39.180 --> 00:15:41.480 you know, giving direct feedback. 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:48.240 I was just having a conversation with a client about a person whose behavior 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:54.992 has been consistently problematic legitimately, but no one has ever given the feedback. 00:15:55.660 --> 00:16:01.807 So that person doesn't have awareness that their behavior is problematic, 00:16:02.336 --> 00:16:05.627 but they do have awareness of how people are treating them, 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:12.373 in this sideways kind of way, like these indirect, passive-aggressive comments, 00:16:12.820 --> 00:16:16.080 because no one has just cared enough about the

relationship to say, 00:16:16.400 --> 00:16:18.900 I need to say some hard things, and they might be hard to hear, 00:16:18.900 --> 00:16:21.841 but I care enough about you for you to hear them. 00:16:23.243 --> 00:16:27.240 Yeah, and as you were talking about systems, and so you might, 00:16:27.760 --> 00:16:31.670 so you have the system of the organization, and then within each organization, 00:16:31.670 --> 00:16:35.120 if it's of any size, you've got all these different divisions. 00:16:35.410 --> 00:16:38.788 And so you've got the system, and then it's applied in all these different ways. 00:16:39.102 --> 00:16:44.010 And then it's applied by then each manager or leader thinks about how it should 00:16:44.010 --> 00:16:46.672 be applied. And it's like this whole trickle-down effect. 00:16:47.465 --> 00:16:51.497 And even just the words that we hear, how am I applying that? 00:16:51.497 --> 00:16:55.934 And so I might be in this part of this division and put this leader understanding it in this way. 00:16:56.207 --> 00:17:01.356 And these behaviors are rewarded or punished. And then it might be something different. 00:17:01.687 --> 00:17:06.757 And then I've got how my colleagues are interpreting it. And it is quite complex. 00:17:06.757 --> 00:17:10.357 Even if you have a simple system, I think the complexity is that it's then being 00:17:10.357 --> 00:17:14.787 executed by people who have different desires, different backgrounds, 00:17:14.787 --> 00:17:18.490 hear words differently. Like, I'm sure we're going to get into matriarchy in a little bit. 00:17:18.891 --> 00:17:22.957 And that word can be arresting because people maybe have a different understanding 00:17:22.957 --> 00:17:26.967 or a word like feminism or a word like a system or conflict. 00:17:26.967 --> 00:17:30.977 What does it mean? All right. And so then we think we're having a conversation 00:17:30.977 --> 00:17:35.227 and we're setting expectations, but we are using words differently. 00:17:35.227 --> 00:17:40.792 And so we just have different values about certain systems and what they mean. Mm-hmm. 00:17:41.221 --> 00:17:47.667 Yes, yes. I think about systems like nesting dolls, that every system sits in 00:17:47.667 --> 00:17:51.200 a system, it sits in a system, and it sits in a system, and it sits in a system. 00:17:51.670 --> 00:17:57.406 And so we have to think about, in my role, whatever that is, 00:17:57.806 --> 00:18:04.046 which level of that system do I have influence with, and then target that. 00:18:04.337 --> 00:18:12.248 So that might be I'm an individual contributor and I have influence at the peer level. 00:18:12.987 --> 00:18:19.887 I can I can be a different human at the peer level and I can be intentional 00:18:19.887 --> 00:18:22.236 about managing up to my direct supervisor. 00:18:22.515 --> 00:18:28.710 And that's my sphere of influence. Or I'm the CEO and my system is much bigger and. 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:34.188 I think that for real systems change

to, I mean, there's a lot that goes into 00:18:34.188 --> 00:18:38.137 systems change, but for real systems change to happen, 00:18:39.072 --> 00:18:44.789 there has to be communication about who we are that scales all the way down and all the way back up. 00:18:45.381 --> 00:18:51.334 And a lot of organizations have no clarity about who they really are, 00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:57.818 and without the clarity of who they really are you can't even get your leadership 00:18:57.818 --> 00:19:00.014 team kind of marching to the same tune, 00:19:00.508 --> 00:19:06.348 so everyone's marching to their own tune right and over here the tune is really 00:19:06.348 --> 00:19:11.388 nice and over here the tune is really aggressive and then it starts to not feel fair yeah. 00:19:13.988 --> 00:19:17.878 And I was also thinking about, I've been noticing with some groups I'm working 00:19:17.878 --> 00:19:23.928 with, that there's this real desire from the leadership to address expectations, 00:19:23.928 --> 00:19:26.267 to really be going in the same, 00:19:27.115 --> 00:19:33.202 And I wonder out loud with them, are you looking to get rid of disagreement? 00:19:33.202 --> 00:19:36.745 Are you looking for everybody to agree with every policy? 00:19:37.280 --> 00:19:41.582 Is that a realistic expectation? How do we build in resiliency? 00:19:41.582 --> 00:19:44.460 How do we build in disappointment? How do we disagree well? 00:19:44.994 --> 00:19:48.332 It doesn't mean there's something wrong with the system if people are disappointed, 00:19:48.593 --> 00:19:51.362 if people don't get what they want, if people are disagreeing. 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.522 That's not the sign. It's how we help people deal with their disappointment, 00:19:56.522 --> 00:20:00.732 how we help people disagree well, what are the parameters, not just civility, 00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:04.896 but collegiality, right? How do we build all that in? 00:20:05.615 --> 00:20:11.552 How do you help leaders see, or do you, how about this, do you see that? 00:20:11.552 --> 00:20:15.342 Do you see the sort of desire to get the system and then we get everybody on 00:20:15.342 --> 00:20:17.503 board and now we're just smooth sailing? 00:20:19.101 --> 00:20:23.618 I think people think it's going to be smooth sailing. 00:20:24.159 --> 00:20:32.742 And it does get hard because systems don't like changing. 00:20:34.242 --> 00:20:41.332 And so when things start to get really difficult, what I lift up is this is 00:20:41.332 --> 00:20:43.719 actually really positive. 00:20:44.252 --> 00:20:50.402 This is really good news that we're seeing this difficulty because it's showing 00:20:50.402 --> 00:20:54.110 us that the system has made progress. 00:20:54.585 --> 00:21:00.802 And so this would be a warning sign on the dashboard that this is an area where 00:21:00.802 --> 00:21:06.262 we need to focus and keep working, but not think of it as a failure. 00:21:06.262 --> 00:21:09.492 A failure would be that it didn't get hard at all. Because then I would say 00:21:09.492 --> 00:21:11.324 we probably didn't really change anything. 00:21:12.222 --> 00:21:15.207 And I was having a conversation with someone recently and, 00:21:16.103 --> 00:21:19.278 And based off the name of my company, Workplace Peace Institute, 00:21:19.416 --> 00:21:24.717 they just made an assumption that our goal is workplace harmony. 00:21:25.332 --> 00:21:30.233 And I said, well, I need to interrupt you real quick because harmony isn't our 00:21:30.233 --> 00:21:35.493 goal at all, at all. Like, conflict is always going to be present. 00:21:36.013 --> 00:21:42.383 Have we built enough resiliency to be able to navigate that conflict well and 00:21:42.383 --> 00:21:48.222 to harness all the amazing benefits that are available to us when we can? Yes. 00:21:48.657 --> 00:21:53.853 Yeah. Like as I was reading the beginning of your book, which is the matriarchy 00:21:53.853 --> 00:21:59.287 effect, ancient wisdom, modern organizations, and the new logic of power. 00:21:59.908 --> 00:22:03.063 And I think you can point it out more eloquently than I can. 00:22:03.063 --> 00:22:06.163 But when we think about matriarchy as being the flip of patriarchy, 00:22:06.163 --> 00:22:11.806 which it is not, we think about peace as the opposite of war, which it is not. Right. 00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:15.853 Especially with just war theory some people who are just war theorists think 00:22:16.213 --> 00:22:22.173 war is acceptable in it's always we always want to get to peacetime right so 00:22:22.173 --> 00:22:24.459 but sometimes we're going to need to, 00:22:25.313 --> 00:22:30.162 change things up. We're going to need to, well, we need to address when somebody 00:22:30.162 --> 00:22:37.869 is being, when something is unjust or there are unfair practices and that can turn things. 00:22:39.397 --> 00:22:44.452 So I, as you were talking, I was thinking about a lot of times I have not come 00:22:44.452 --> 00:22:47.912 across somebody who says my behavior at work is unacceptable, 00:22:47.912 --> 00:22:51.602 but rather people say, maybe I'm doing this because, right? 00:22:51.602 --> 00:22:54.662 I have this reason. And sometimes people have been doing things for years or 00:22:54.662 --> 00:22:59.450 decades, And it's never been asked of them to do something else. 00:23:00.047 --> 00:23:02.362 And yet now we see, oh, this is bad behavior. 00:23:03.941 --> 00:23:10.031 And then the person is, you know, blindsided. And maybe it really is a bad behavior. 00:23:10.222 --> 00:23:11.755 However, we understand that. 00:23:15.122 --> 00:23:19.892 How do we treat people well who have been following the system, 00:23:19.892 --> 00:23:22.970 the broken system, and now a new system is coming along? 00:23:23.353 --> 00:23:26.882 How do we help bring them along when they have been tacitly, 00:23:26.882 --> 00:23:30.784 their behavior has been acceptable? Because it's never been questioned. Mm-hmm. 00:23:32.836 -->

00:23:37.392 Okay, so this is where I want to talk about the patriarchy. So in a patriarchal 00:23:37.392 --> 00:23:39.455 system, and it's interesting, I'll pause here. 00:23:39.866 --> 00:23:42.995 I've only recently been talking about the patriarchy and the matriarchy. 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:48.911 I've always been talking about the dynamics of the patriarchy and the matriarchy, 00:23:49.231 --> 00:23:52.329 but I've been using language of physics, 00:23:52.927 --> 00:23:59.445 and I have been talking about it from the perspective of Newtonian organizations, where, 00:24:00.993 --> 00:24:04.858 the more force you put on something, the more production you get from it, 00:24:05.316 --> 00:24:12.044 versus quantum, which is a relational approach to the way power moves through an organization. 00:24:12.706 --> 00:24:20.003 And being kind of a science nerd that made tons of sense to me but I realized 00:24:20.003 --> 00:24:25.696 when I would talk about it with people they could track with me in real time but it didn't, 00:24:26.350 --> 00:24:31.133 kind of land in this somatic kind of way where you could tell it like was registering 00:24:31.133 --> 00:24:33.420 with something that felt familiar to them, 00:24:34.117 --> 00:24:38.903 and then I realized what I'm really talking about is the patriarchy and the 00:24:38.903 --> 00:24:42.639 matriarchy And people are very familiar with the patriarchy. 00:24:42.778 --> 00:24:45.889 They are not remotely familiar with the matriarchy. 00:24:46.760 --> 00:24:53.511 So I say that to say most of us have been operating in patriarchal systems. 00:24:55.111 --> 00:25:04.351 That's the model that business is designed on, which is a model of power over dominance, zero-sum, 00:25:05.157 --> 00:25:11.181 winners and losers, and a hierarchy where those at the top of the hierarchy 00:25:11.181 --> 00:25:15.814 have power over those who were at the bottom of that hierarchy. 00:25:16.459 --> 00:25:23.252 And that model rewards dominant behavior. 00:25:23.432 --> 00:25:28.860 And it's a model that rewards hyper-competitive behavior. 00:25:29.278 --> 00:25:34.566 And it's a model that doesn't have consideration for do people feel safe. 00:25:35.228 --> 00:25:40.391 I would say it's not even that it's a model that is designed for lack of safety. 00:25:40.391 --> 00:25:43.134 It's just a model that has no consideration for it at all. 00:25:43.650 --> 00:25:52.101 And so then the people who generally succeed are very dominant personalities, right? 00:25:52.101 --> 00:25:56.581 So if you think about C-suite roles, the people who have moved up that power 00:25:56.581 --> 00:26:01.075 structure are people who lead in that way. 00:26:02.231 --> 00:26:11.774 And therefore, moving information up in the form of feedback to them is very, very difficult. 00:26:12.326 --> 00:26:20.271 And in a power over structure, you have to think about the possibility of what 00:26:20.271 --> 00:26:23.273 you are putting in jeopardy by doing that. 00:26:23.662 --> 00:26:28.931 Is my job going to be secure? Will I be looked at for promotions? 00:26:28.931 --> 00:26:34.123 Will I be put in a box I can't get out of if I move this information up to this person? 00:26:35.747 --> 00:26:40.008 And oftentimes the answer is yes, you will be. And so it prevents people from 00:26:40.136 --> 00:26:41.448 having access to information. 00:26:41.773 --> 00:26:50.262 So therefore, the person who's rewarded in that system is already very dominant, 00:26:50.715 --> 00:26:54.836 very comfortable in a power over, very competitive, very zero sum. 00:26:55.161 --> 00:27:00.463 They move up into that system and then they get further and further away from 00:27:00.463 --> 00:27:03.045 the ability to hear real feedback. 00:27:03.677 --> 00:27:11.949 So, in order for them to actually change, I think a couple of things have to happen. 00:27:12.566 --> 00:27:22.643 One is it needs to be brought to their attention that it's costing something that's very expensive. 00:27:23.044 --> 00:27:28.913 It's costing innovation it's costing collaboration it's costing capacity for 00:27:28.913 --> 00:27:34.394 critical thinking it's costing engagement and it's cultivating a lot of turnover 00:27:34.794 --> 00:27:38.370 so usually that then surfaces through 00:27:38.800 --> 00:27:45.514 i'm not getting the same returns that i used to and i need help figuring out why, 00:27:46.293 --> 00:27:52.682 and usually the safest person to say that to them is a consultant. 00:27:53.987 --> 00:27:57.215 Is an outside party because that's their job. 00:27:57.780 --> 00:28:01.464 And the very worst thing that can happen is I lose a client, 00:28:01.801 --> 00:28:03.345 not my entire livelihood. 00:28:04.760 --> 00:28:07.263 But it has to start with the humility, 00:28:07.867 --> 00:28:12.575 of what got us here isn't getting us there, and I'm at my wit's end. 00:28:13.647 --> 00:28:17.455 And a lot of times that humility isn't available, And so it doesn't change. 00:28:18.618 --> 00:28:25.596 But when it is, I have found where there is true humility and curiosity, 00:28:26.101 --> 00:28:28.550 then they can hear the feedback. 00:28:28.550 --> 00:28:33.618 And I think when it's coming from a coach, a mediator, a consultant, 00:28:33.897 --> 00:28:38.860 that person is trained to keep that nervous system safe. 00:28:45.560 --> 00:28:53.993 Mm-hmm. model, you are also likely a person who has done very well without a lot of verbal feedback. 00:28:54.237 --> 00:28:57.128 Like, you've gotten feedback in the form of what the system rewards, 00:28:57.261 --> 00:29:02.160 but you haven't gotten a lot of verbal feedback, and so you need to hear that 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:08.830 from a person that knows how to keep that particular nervous system safe in hearing that. 00:29:08.830 --> 00:29:14.320 That feedback, and then be the kind of person who cares enough to act on it. 00:29:15.378 --> 00:29:18.940 You said a lot of very interesting things. But

one thing that stuck out to me 00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:22.290 is, you know, we talk a lot about psychological safety, right? 00:29:22.290 --> 00:29:25.264 The basic belief that I can speak up without fair attribution. 00:29:25.955 --> 00:29:33.146 And in this command and control, this patriarchal system, I have seen CEOs say, 00:29:33.280 --> 00:29:36.230 we're going to have psychological safety here, you know, as if, 00:29:36.230 --> 00:29:39.339 right? That's what it is. I declare it into being. That's right. 00:29:40.712 --> 00:29:43.661 But if this is what we want, because we know it drives engagement, 00:29:43.661 --> 00:29:47.461 discretionary effort, longevity, you know, all these sorts of things that are 00:29:47.461 --> 00:29:53.501 good for institutions, innovation, then we're going to have to create it, right? 00:29:53.501 --> 00:29:58.981 And so how, if it's not going to be in this patriarchal system, 00:29:58.981 --> 00:30:02.171 right, so then one option would be a matriarchal system. 00:30:02.171 --> 00:30:06.271 So talk to us about what that is. So we're not talking about men over women 00:30:06.271 --> 00:30:09.912 or women over men. What are, what's the basic difference that you see? 00:30:10.103 --> 00:30:15.763 Yes. So I think what people get wrong about patriarchy, matriarchy, 00:30:16.059 --> 00:30:17.830 is that it's associated with gender. 00:30:18.550 --> 00:30:22.474 And it's really an organizing principle. 00:30:23.387 --> 00:30:31.061 So a patriarchy organizes around dominance and power over, and a matriarchy 00:30:31.061 --> 00:30:35.814 organizes around power with and collaboration. 00:30:37.411 --> 00:30:43.057 And so it has everything to do with how power moves through a system. 00:30:44.171 --> 00:30:51.191 The word patriarchy and the word matriarchy at their roots are the word arche, 00:30:51.672 --> 00:30:57.971 and the oldest form of that word is from the beginning. 00:30:58.807 --> 00:31:04.293 The newest form of that is around power and dominance. 00:31:04.716 --> 00:31:10.202 So if we look at the oldest from the beginning and we add maitri to it, 00:31:10.573 --> 00:31:12.953 then from the beginning is the mother's. 00:31:14.123 --> 00:31:19.088 Or from the beginning is the fathers. But biologically, we know from the beginning 00:31:19.088 --> 00:31:21.512 isn't the fathers, it's the mothers. 00:31:22.012 --> 00:31:25.227 So matriarchy is mothers from the beginning. 00:31:25.901 --> 00:31:31.498 But patriarchy has to, by default, take on the archaic of domination because 00:31:31.498 --> 00:31:34.404 it's not from the beginning if you put patri on top of it. 00:31:34.729 --> 00:31:40.888 Does that make sense? So if we look at mothers from the beginning as an organizing 00:31:40.888 --> 00:31:47.599 principle, then what we're doing is we're organizing around the characteristics, 00:31:48.179 --> 00:31:49.886 of mothering, 00:31:50.431 --> 00:31:55.534 which is the characteristics of nurturance, which is the characteristics of 00:31:55.911 --> 00:32:05.248 power with and attunement and growth and development and moving others through. 00:32:05.742 --> 00:32:14.350 Care into independence so we move from and donna hicks talks about 00:32:14.768 --> 00:32:18.928 she doesn't talk about the matriarchy but what what's connected for me and her 00:32:18.928 --> 00:32:24.583 work around dignity and her book leading with dignity is she has a dignity model that begins with, 00:32:25.466 --> 00:32:30.654 the three c's of of dignity no not the three c's the three stages dependence, 00:32:31.663 --> 00:32:36.653 independence, and interdependence. And if we think about this through. 00:32:37.704 --> 00:32:45.361 An organizing principle of care and nurturing, we are dependent on one another 00:32:45.767 --> 00:32:48.449 for our growth and development. 00:32:48.954 --> 00:32:55.193 As we receive that development through power with, through care, 00:32:55.193 --> 00:33:01.011 through intentionality around growth, all cultivated in the safety that's necessary to do that, 00:33:01.487 --> 00:33:04.355 we can move into an independent stage, right? 00:33:04.645 --> 00:33:07.879 The baby bird can begin to fly on its own. 00:33:08.494 --> 00:33:13.193 But ultimately, we're moving into, if we think about this from an organizing 00:33:13.193 --> 00:33:17.091 principle stage and the way that Donna Hicks talks about these stages of dignity, 00:33:17.532 --> 00:33:22.240 into interdependence, where we realize that we must, 00:33:22.710 --> 00:33:24.452 act with one another, 00:33:25.188 --> 00:33:27.963 in order for all of us to thrive, right? 00:33:27.963 --> 00:33:31.063 So then we have the baby bird who has been pushed out of its nest. 00:33:31.063 --> 00:33:33.837 It's in its dependent stage. It's learning to fly. 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:39.892 But ultimately, it's going to be flying with other birds as it goes on its big journeys. 00:33:40.822 --> 00:33:47.198 So we need this capacity for interdependence, which isn't available to us in 00:33:47.198 --> 00:33:49.046 a power over dominant structure. 00:33:49.909 --> 00:33:52.378 So let me ask you this. So as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, 00:33:52.378 --> 00:33:55.878 Carol Gilligan and her ethics of care and ethics of justice, 00:33:55.878 --> 00:34:00.998 right? So the male-female way of thinking, like basic ways in which men and 00:34:00.998 --> 00:34:02.243 women go about in the world. 00:34:02.970 --> 00:34:07.928 And it seems that we still need both, right? We still need, even if we've got 00:34:07.928 --> 00:34:10.294 a bunch of birds flying, there's the lead bird, right? 00:34:10.938 --> 00:34:15.768 So how do you connect this up with somebody is still making the final decision 00:34:15.768 --> 00:34:17.816 or a group is making a final decision? 00:34:18.356 --> 00:34:23.388 How do you still see? Because I have found that when people decide, 00:34:23.388 --> 00:34:28.168 oh, no, we're all equal here, and they

decide not to recognize the power that 00:34:28.168 --> 00:34:30.228 they have, that is detrimental as well. 00:34:30.228 --> 00:34:36.108 So talk about what is then the proper power structure when the fact of the matter 00:34:36.108 --> 00:34:40.953 is there are people who are going to be held accountable for making final decisions. And evaluations. 00:34:41.429 --> 00:34:47.849 Yes. Okay, so love this. And I love staying with the bird analogy because the lead bird is rotating. 00:34:48.516 --> 00:34:52.319 It isn't always the same actual bird. It's a role. 00:34:53.098 --> 00:34:57.768 And they rotate into that role. So if we think about this from an organizational 00:34:57.768 --> 00:35:03.885 perspective, I do not advocate for flat hierarchies. 00:35:04.627 --> 00:35:09.308 I mean, flat structures where there is no hierarchy, because hierarchy is a 00:35:09.308 --> 00:35:12.938 natural part of the whole natural world. 00:35:13.918 --> 00:35:17.947 Even inside of our own bodies, there is a hierarchy of how it functions. 00:35:18.353 --> 00:35:25.145 So hierarchies aren't inherently bad. They are inherently vulnerable to misuse. 00:35:25.934 --> 00:35:33.226 So when I think about this from a leadership perspective in the workplace, you can think about. 00:35:35.234 --> 00:35:42.685 The role of the leader shifts from being the person who declares what we're 00:35:42.685 --> 00:35:46.066 going to do and how we're going to do it, and now I'm going to delegate that down, 00:35:46.699 --> 00:35:53.565 to the person whose responsibility is to cultivate an environment in which wisdom 00:35:53.565 --> 00:36:00.683 can come forward, collaboration can be possible, psychological safety is consistently present, 00:36:01.572 --> 00:36:03.337 conflict is navigated. 00:36:03.615 --> 00:36:07.714 So the role of the leader shifts from being. 00:36:09.073 --> 00:36:19.371 Top decision maker to the cultivator of human capacity, which is big skill, right? 00:36:19.487 --> 00:36:23.993 And in the organization, you need to have subject matter expertise, 00:36:24.388 --> 00:36:29.305 but your biggest role is in understanding human dynamics, 00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:35.753 so that people are no longer being treated like widgets on an assembly line 00:36:36.194 --> 00:36:38.900 and rather being engaged with, 00:36:39.533 --> 00:36:41.192 in the wholeness of who they are. 00:36:41.867 --> 00:36:46.940 And then therefore we get so much more, like the business case for it, 00:36:47.451 --> 00:36:53.446 is we get so much better innovation. People are leaning in and they're connected 00:36:53.446 --> 00:36:56.796 with one another through trusting relationship. 00:36:57.121 --> 00:37:04.512 And when we have trust, our bodies are wired to do all the brilliant things that humans can do. 00:37:05.022 --> 00:37:10.796 But when we don't have trust and we don't have that somatic experience of safe, right? 00:37:11.316 --> 00:37:14.819 It doesn't matter if I've declared we're safe. If I don't feel safe, 00:37:15.324 --> 00:37:23.109 then I am also withholding my wisdom and my expertise and my skills to protect myself. Yeah. 00:37:23.968 --> 00:37:27.246 So when you think about your own career and you think about how you deal with 00:37:27.246 --> 00:37:32.836 conflict, has it changed over time? I mean, maybe not at your first fast food 00:37:32.836 --> 00:37:36.466 place, but how you've dealt with conflict at work, is it different than how 00:37:36.466 --> 00:37:37.891 you deal with it now and think about it now? 00:37:39.087 --> 00:37:42.419 Oh, absolutely. So I was. 00:37:44.019 --> 00:37:51.409 I think like the roots of what made this so, why I had so much curiosity about 00:37:51.409 --> 00:37:56.146 this from the very beginning is that I was taught at home as a child. 00:37:56.617 --> 00:38:02.462 And in that experience of being homeschooled, I had an enormous amount of agency, 00:38:02.944 --> 00:38:08.379 and an enormous amount of voice in my day-to-day life. 00:38:08.939 --> 00:38:16.219 And so that just got kind of baked into me as a thing you should expect from systems. 00:38:16.950 --> 00:38:22.494 And I was continuously shocked very early on that that is not what I was experiencing. 00:38:23.098 --> 00:38:26.900 And it felt very disorienting and confusing. 00:38:27.266 --> 00:38:37.119 So from the very beginning, I was curious about what was happening instead of, 00:38:37.636 --> 00:38:39.542 assuming what was happening was normal. 00:38:40.755 --> 00:38:46.404 So I had a lot of curiosity, but it wasn't paired with skill at all. 00:38:47.084 --> 00:38:52.124 And so my approach then was just remove yourself from the situation, 00:38:52.124 --> 00:38:57.204 right? Like I used my voice in a way that would feel very normal. 00:38:57.784 --> 00:39:02.634 And then that was not rewarded. That was punished. And so then all I knew how 00:39:02.634 --> 00:39:04.490 to do was to withdraw from that. 00:39:05.193 --> 00:39:12.884 And over time, I was like, well, there's a pattern here. And everywhere I go, 00:39:13.404 --> 00:39:15.403 I'm experiencing the same thing. 00:39:17.262 --> 00:39:22.034 And then the common denominator for me, like my own curiosity about the way 00:39:22.034 --> 00:39:25.714 I was engaging with conflict, was just leave. 00:39:28.160 --> 00:39:33.144 And that's not over the whole course of an entire career a sustainable approach. 00:39:33.867 --> 00:39:42.224 And when I then got into leadership, I was really surprised by how much my job 00:39:42.544 --> 00:39:45.499 was people bringing me their conflicts. 00:39:46.164 --> 00:39:53.524 And even though it hadn't been rewarded in my own career for me to like stand 00:39:53.524 --> 00:39:58.315 up for myself, I began coaching them to stand up for themselves. Yeah. 00:39:59.658 --> 00:40:08.439 And sometimes I found myself even coaching them to, like, be dishonest with 00:40:08.439 --> 00:40:10.569 other people in protection, right? 00:40:10.569 -->

00:40:18.367 So I worked in this one organization that was so disrespectful around people's work-life boundaries. 00:40:18.843 --> 00:40:22.409 And there was just expectations that you would work till 2 o'clock in the morning, 00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:25.392 work over the weekend, do whatever was necessary. 00:40:25.926 --> 00:40:29.467 And, you know, we weren't doctors. We weren't saving lives. This was marketing. 00:40:29.995 --> 00:40:35.109 And so I began coaching my own team, tell them you're going out of town and 00:40:35.109 --> 00:40:40.069 you're not available and you can't do it, and as just the only way to cope with 00:40:40.069 --> 00:40:43.951 a system that had no respect and boundaries. 00:40:44.630 --> 00:40:53.769 And and then when I realized if my choice around conflict is to leave the system, 00:40:54.597 --> 00:40:58.074 or engage with the system in a way that doesn't have integrity, 00:40:58.939 --> 00:41:00.329 I really need to figure this out. 00:41:02.638 --> 00:41:06.699 And so then going to school and getting my master's in conflict management dispute 00:41:06.699 --> 00:41:11.064 resolution I realized this is an actual discipline. 00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:16.583 There is actual skill here that people can develop. Shockingly, 00:41:16.780 --> 00:41:18.342 nobody knows about this. 00:41:19.474 --> 00:41:24.909 And just like anything, when you build this skill, you can engage with it. 00:41:24.909 --> 00:41:28.240 And it's not, it's not mysterious. It's not. 00:41:30.253 --> 00:41:33.256 You know when you can do it on your own and when you need to bring in help. 00:41:33.715 --> 00:41:36.710 And so then it did shift dramatically. 00:41:36.855 --> 00:41:39.305 But it wasn't going to without formal education. 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:44.983 It's such a great point about it is a skill that can be learned. 00:41:44.983 --> 00:41:48.273 And a lot of people just think, they just say, I'm conflict-averse, 00:41:48.273 --> 00:41:51.383 as if it's a personality trait. And you're like, it's not going to change. 00:41:51.383 --> 00:41:53.230 It doesn't matter. I am this. 00:41:54.233 --> 00:41:57.829 And most likely what it is is that you just need some help. 00:41:57.951 --> 00:42:02.163 You need to practice. you need to develop that that muscle that virtue however 00:42:02.163 --> 00:42:05.273 you want to talk about it and the more you do it then the more you see and the 00:42:05.273 --> 00:42:06.989 more you see the more you do it right is this, 00:42:07.491 --> 00:42:12.473 how habits are developed but it does take stopping and 00:42:12.853 --> 00:42:17.113 being led right being led out of the cave somebody to help you see and then 00:42:17.113 --> 00:42:21.623 you start practicing and then you and then you find your voice and you find 00:42:21.623 --> 00:42:25.192 as you said when you can do it on your own and when you need assistance and, 00:42:26.021 --> 00:42:29.543 for all of those out there who are enlisting people who are professionally in 00:42:29.543 --> 00:42:31.233 this field also need assistance. 00:42:31.853 --> 00:42:38.055 And it's the way it does. Yes. And those skills are really all relational skills. 00:42:38.653 --> 00:42:46.025 And to me, that's where the patriarchy and the matriarchy is important to think about, because, 00:42:46.913 --> 00:42:53.657 the patriarchal model of power over and competition and zero sum is a model of. 00:42:54.733 --> 00:42:56.132 Severing relationship. 00:42:57.131 --> 00:43:04.265 And the matriarchical model of nurturance and care and development is a model around relationship. 00:43:04.816 --> 00:43:10.161 And, you know, there's the proverb, you know, if you... 00:43:11.825 --> 00:43:14.390 If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. 00:43:15.105 --> 00:43:19.538 And the matriarchal model is the go far and go together. 00:43:19.974 --> 00:43:24.398 But it requires the skill of relationship. 00:43:24.891 --> 00:43:34.325 And it remains consistently kind of shocking to me that we live in a society, 00:43:34.939 --> 00:43:38.277 that has worked pretty hard to separate us from each other. 00:43:39.454 --> 00:43:44.325 And even in virtual work, like I love virtual work, we're a fully remote company, 00:43:44.876 --> 00:43:52.065 but the intentionality around relationship has to be such a priority because 00:43:52.385 --> 00:43:56.611 it's even a work model that is not designed for connection. 00:43:57.465 --> 00:44:01.980 And when we don't have connection and when we don't have relationship relationship. 00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:06.811 We really can't navigate conflict together. Yeah. 00:44:08.181 --> 00:44:11.760 As you're talking, and I want to go back to this idea of patriarchy, 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:16.077 metriarchy, being a male-female sort of thing, and that it isn't. 00:44:16.217 --> 00:44:20.940 And I think I could hear some people, you know, wondering about the feminization 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:25.952 of men, you know, like, okay, we don't want men to be men. We want to turn men into women. We want to. 00:44:26.565 --> 00:44:30.580 And as you're talking, and I'm thinking about like this, it's very hard, 00:44:30.580 --> 00:44:33.290 I think, to talk about the differences between the genders. 00:44:33.290 --> 00:44:36.500 Like, what are they? What is socialization? What is biological? 00:44:36.500 --> 00:44:39.600 What is whatever is spiritual, however we want to think about it. 00:44:39.600 --> 00:44:45.754 But if we think about this protecting nature, right, that both men and women want to protect. 00:44:46.212 --> 00:44:53.130 But if we think about the masculine as protecting in this matriarchal system 00:44:53.130 --> 00:44:54.206 that you're talking about, 00:44:55.129 --> 00:44:59.904 now we see safety as priority, right and so, 00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:05.100 if that is and i'm just thinking about you know ways to get help people get 00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:09.740 over words that might

be turn offs to see that no there's a place for everybody 00:45:09.740 --> 00:45:12.710 wherever you are on the spectrum wherever you are biologically or however you 00:45:12.710 --> 00:45:15.471 like to think about the male and the female, 00:45:16.137 --> 00:45:24.100 that i see it as not a feminization of one sex but rather how we actually come 00:45:24.100 --> 00:45:26.500 together in community, because women don't have, 00:45:27.220 --> 00:45:30.830 the market on wanting robust relationships and connection. 00:45:30.830 --> 00:45:33.188 Right. So can you talk a little bit more about that? 00:45:34.314 --> 00:45:36.133 Yes. So... 00:45:39.027 --> 00:45:46.022 So I think about matriarchy and patriarchy as attributes. 00:45:46.382 --> 00:45:51.750 So we can think about, if we're thinking about leadership style, 00:45:52.203 --> 00:45:55.094 then we're thinking about attributes. 00:45:55.953 --> 00:46:01.027 If we're thinking about organizational design, then we're thinking about orienting ideas. 00:46:01.514 --> 00:46:06.672 So you can have matriarchical design, patriarchal design, but you can also then 00:46:06.672 --> 00:46:11.925 have matriarchal leadership styles, patriarchal leadership styles. 00:46:13.182 --> 00:46:18.344 I don't know what to do. I don't even know how to answer the question around 00:46:18.628 --> 00:46:22.988 feminine and masculine as it relates to... 00:46:24.017 --> 00:46:29.399 The genders of the humans that are leading, because I just don't see it that way. 00:46:29.875 --> 00:46:34.897 Like, I don't know what it means to be a masculine woman or feminine man. 00:46:34.897 --> 00:46:36.642 Like, I wouldn't even know how to define that. 00:46:37.356 --> 00:46:40.996 So when I think about this from a perspective of leadership, 00:46:41.553 --> 00:46:48.597 it is leadership is essentially a relationship, right? 00:46:48.957 --> 00:46:50.954 You cannot lead me if I don't trust you. 00:46:51.612 --> 00:46:55.130 You can command that I do something and punish me if I don't. 00:46:56.197 --> 00:47:00.830 So you can control me, but you can't actually lead me. 00:47:01.497 --> 00:47:06.917 So, for instance, there's a story that I have heard and I've tried to find it 00:47:06.917 --> 00:47:09.114 and I can't find it, so I don't even know if it's true. 00:47:09.497 --> 00:47:13.497 But I like the metaphor and it was of a firefighter a chief 00:47:13.937 --> 00:47:19.527 who had not built trusting relationship with the fire crew and they got caught 00:47:19.527 --> 00:47:23.837 in a very dangerous fire and he knew the science of it was that they needed 00:47:23.837 --> 00:47:25.699 to go into the center of the fire, 00:47:26.569 --> 00:47:33.477 and he told everyone to come with him but he hadn't built the trust and people 00:47:33.477 --> 00:47:38.877 did not follow so he wasn't a leader he was a commander And there was, 00:47:39.537 --> 00:47:45.135 a big loss of life because he didn't do the relationship side of actual leadership. 00:47:45.576 --> 00:47:50.331 So when I think about the actual relationship side of leadership, 00:47:50.923 --> 00:47:53.029 it is, do I feel cared for? 00:47:53.677 --> 00:48:00.019 Do I trust that you're going to support my growth? Am I safe to fail around you? 00:48:00.362 --> 00:48:03.119 Do I trust you? And that's the matriarchy. 00:48:03.485 --> 00:48:06.764 So I only know how to look at it from that perspective. 00:48:07.391 --> 00:48:13.937 When I think about relationships in my own life that there are like genders, right? 00:48:14.477 --> 00:48:19.487 I am a biological woman and I identify as woman and I'm married to a man who 00:48:19.487 --> 00:48:21.891 is biologically a man who identifies as a man. 00:48:22.928 --> 00:48:30.646 So our gendered roles sort of orient around who can do something better, right? 00:48:30.982 --> 00:48:33.248 So like he's significantly stronger than me. 00:48:33.748 --> 00:48:39.637 If something requires heavy lifting, he does that because he's significantly stronger than me. 00:48:40.551 --> 00:48:44.038 I do things that I really enjoy and he does things he really I don't think they're 00:48:44.038 --> 00:48:50.314 gendered they are they are behaviors that are a manifestation of our strengths, 00:48:50.843 --> 00:48:52.636 and the things that bring us joy, 00:48:53.351 --> 00:48:59.822 and so if he so he does the dishes every night I cook I don't think that that's, 00:49:00.460 --> 00:49:03.136 feminine I think that's partnership, 00:49:04.028 --> 00:49:11.733 so I don't know really how to engage with a construct of feminization and masculinization 00:49:12.121 --> 00:49:15.959 because it's just not even like a structure that I operate in. 00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:24.547 I think it's a structure that it's a construct, and constructs are just belief systems. 00:49:25.721 --> 00:49:35.708 But if a person is very worried that the matriarchy is going to somehow turn men into women, 00:49:37.043 --> 00:49:41.870 they have probably been deeply influenced by the patriarchy. 00:49:44.070 --> 00:49:47.187 Because that's a very fear-based approach to thinking about it. 00:49:48.647 --> 00:49:51.829 It's a really good question because, you know, work is populated with people. 00:49:51.829 --> 00:49:54.979 We have all different kinds of people. And what do they hear? 00:49:54.979 --> 00:49:58.719 What do they see? What do they need? And yet at the end, we're still, 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:01.859 we have basic kinds of needs because they're part of the human community, right? 00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:05.081 These needs for belonging, these needs for safety. 00:50:05.939 --> 00:50:09.509 This, you know, we're meaning makers. We are active. 00:50:10.113 --> 00:50:13.879 And thinking about what system, like if you want to kind of like, 00:50:13.879 --> 00:50:16.819 so at work, we want to be, you know, we want to be solvent, right? 00:50:16.819 --> 00:50:23.329 So what system is going to help bring that about? And

I wonder if systems and 00:50:23.329 --> 00:50:25.038 workforces change over time. 00:50:25.415 --> 00:50:30.819 So, you know, this post-industrial revolution or during the industrial revolution, 00:50:30.819 --> 00:50:35.248 if you had more of this command and control given, I mean, I don't know, 00:50:35.416 --> 00:50:37.628 given the workforce, given values. 00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:42.920 Maybe it worked. Maybe it never really worked. But I think that's one thing 00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.450 to say is, but what are we doing now? 00:50:45.450 --> 00:50:48.733 What is the workforce now? What are the expectations? What are, 00:50:49.417 --> 00:50:52.530 maybe different understandings of human rights and how all humans ought to be 00:50:52.540 --> 00:50:56.859 treated, independent of their maybe social class or, 00:50:57.434 --> 00:51:00.860 the class they find themselves within the structure of the organization, 00:51:00.860 --> 00:51:04.958 that all persons deserve basic dignity and worth and more than that. 00:51:05.510 --> 00:51:10.430 So, you know, giving it a real thought about who are these messy people that 00:51:10.430 --> 00:51:18.176 populate any work environment, and therefore how do we design for them and for the business? 00:51:20.144 --> 00:51:23.540 Yeah, well, we're probably all messy people in the right environment. 00:51:27.116 --> 00:51:32.520 I don't think that in my current workplace I would be considered messy. 00:51:32.927 --> 00:51:37.750 And I can think about in previous workplaces that were extremely patriarchal, 00:51:37.750 --> 00:51:39.336 I would have been considered messy. 00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:51.540 So I think about the complexity of humans coming together to do something through 00:51:51.540 --> 00:51:55.938 the lens of, I wonder what has happened to this person. 00:51:56.106 --> 00:52:01.122 I wonder why this behavior is the rational behavior. 00:52:01.754 --> 00:52:08.055 And then, do we have the skills internally to engage with that question? Right. 00:52:09.335 --> 00:52:12.557 And so I think the way we frame the question helps. 00:52:12.987 --> 00:52:16.945 I know that for me, the reason that I was one of the reasons I wanted to write 00:52:16.945 --> 00:52:20.469 the book was my own curiosity about, 00:52:21.143 --> 00:52:28.165 in just my anecdotal living my life and social media, the comfort level that 00:52:28.165 --> 00:52:31.714 I saw with people's acceptance of the patriarchy. 00:52:32.595 --> 00:52:38.488 Like that that it exists and that it's a reality and people's general, 00:52:39.335 --> 00:52:44.635 really triggering response to the matriarchy and i was like that's interesting 00:52:44.635 --> 00:52:50.862 to me that even if you are the kind of person that's like smash the patriarchy, 00:52:51.507 --> 00:52:55.674 oftentimes that same person is very uncomfortable with the matriarchy. 00:52:58.255 --> 00:53:04.115 And I think that's because there's an underlying assumption that either is about 00:53:04.115 --> 00:53:08.456 dominance and that we don't like dominance. 00:53:08.602 --> 00:53:10.691 Obviously, we don't like that. 00:53:11.481 --> 00:53:17.576 And so my curiosity around it all was, I believe. 00:53:19.213 --> 00:53:22.167 The type of mediation that I practice is humanistic mediation, 00:53:22.642 --> 00:53:30.950 Which follows in the transformative mediation tradition, which I think is matriarchal, right? 00:53:31.275 --> 00:53:35.385 I would say anything that there's any kind of conflict resolution where you 00:53:35.385 --> 00:53:36.789 have a power over structure is... 00:53:37.665 --> 00:53:41.374 You're operating in a patriarchal design principle. 00:53:41.937 --> 00:53:47.595 And I just began realizing that's what we were doing at Workplace Peace Institute, 00:53:47.595 --> 00:53:50.934 and that's what my clients were doing, and we weren't naming it that. 00:53:51.340 --> 00:53:58.091 And I just had curiosity about naming it, what would happen if we did, if we normalized it. 00:53:58.515 --> 00:54:02.875 And I think that the principles, and the book really lays out the roadmap for it, 00:54:03.566 --> 00:54:11.099 are the principles that support our capacity for all people share these rights, 00:54:11.621 --> 00:54:18.405 but our systems haven't set us up for how all people can be in relationship 00:54:18.405 --> 00:54:20.468 and accessing these rights. 00:54:20.886 --> 00:54:26.345 And that we need to learn new skills so that we can do it from the energy and 00:54:26.345 --> 00:54:28.479 the consciousness of... 00:54:29.545 --> 00:54:34.305 Nurturing and caring for one another, rather than through the energy and the 00:54:34.305 --> 00:54:36.753 consciousness of fighting for them. 00:54:38.449 --> 00:54:43.848 Yes. Yes. When I think about my clients or the people that I work with, 00:54:44.364 --> 00:54:46.099 it does not matter who they are. 00:54:46.244 --> 00:54:50.006 It doesn't matter where they are in the system, their power structure, 00:54:50.424 --> 00:54:53.111 or how much power they have or perceive that they have. 00:54:53.572 --> 00:54:57.835 Many of the complaints are the same. It's a lack of belonging, 00:54:57.835 --> 00:55:02.277 a lack of feeling respected, a lack of feeling cared for. It's this cry for community. 00:55:03.125 --> 00:55:07.200 And community means different things to different people. But it does, 00:55:07.409 --> 00:55:08.999 there is something communal. 00:55:09.528 --> 00:55:14.085 I wonder if maybe people are reticent, as you were talking, like, 00:55:14.445 --> 00:55:19.880 what is the pushback? Is the pushback when people name their workplace family? 00:55:20.362 --> 00:55:24.095 I think that's fraught. And I know that I have not heard you, 00:55:24.095 --> 00:55:27.102 I'm not I'm not hearing you say that at all, but I wonder if that's what, 00:55:27.695 --> 00:55:31.635 a different kind of obligation, a different kind of power structure that they're 00:55:31.635 -->

00:55:36.425 uncomfortable with, as you said, it's still a power, there is going to be a 00:55:36.425 --> 00:55:39.285 power structure, of course there is, but maybe they're wondering, 00:55:39.285 --> 00:55:40.855 well, what is the bait and switch? 00:55:40.855 --> 00:55:45.687 I'm going from one and now I've got to be a dutiful daughter, you know. 00:55:46.902 --> 00:55:49.617 I don't know. What do you think? Is that going on or maybe not? 00:55:49.837 --> 00:55:56.192 I know. I think you're right. I think you're right. That if the only understanding, 00:55:56.192 --> 00:55:59.015 and I think that this is, I think what I'm about to say is largely true. 00:55:59.561 --> 00:56:06.132 If our only understanding and relationship to power is that some people have 00:56:06.132 --> 00:56:13.182 some and some people don't, then switching who gets to have it and who doesn't isn't the answer. Yeah. 00:56:14.474 --> 00:56:18.682 And I think that the one of the things that I have found very interesting is 00:56:18.682 --> 00:56:26.214 in the last five years, I've really been deepening my own education around power dynamics. 00:56:26.620 --> 00:56:31.665 And I think that that is one of the missing pieces to. 00:56:32.618 --> 00:56:38.040 Shared language and understanding is we have a physiological, 00:56:38.575 --> 00:56:42.612 visceral understanding of misuse of power. 00:56:43.415 --> 00:56:54.265 But most of us don't have any language, pedagogy, training around what that is. 00:56:54.975 --> 00:57:02.096 And so And so we don't have any familiarity with what it means to share power 00:57:02.392 --> 00:57:06.769 in a really effective, productive, pro-social way. 00:57:07.269 --> 00:57:11.553 And so then the dynamics of just getting to switch who gets it and who doesn't 00:57:11.947 --> 00:57:13.495 can't possibly be the solution. 00:57:14.135 --> 00:57:17.615 Right. And we think about power like a battery. There's only so much. 00:57:18.095 --> 00:57:21.787 Instead of powers like love, the more you use it, the more you have it. 00:57:22.147 --> 00:57:27.435 The more you love, the more love you get. And so this misunderstanding of what power is, right? 00:57:27.435 --> 00:57:33.695 As you said, you can control people for a while, but what is real power and influence? 00:57:33.695 --> 00:57:38.215 And the more you give, the more you have. That's the very interesting thing 00:57:38.215 --> 00:57:41.915 about power that we don't think so much about when we think we're hoarding it 00:57:41.915 --> 00:57:43.748 like it's this finite resource. 00:57:44.177 --> 00:57:48.485 Yes, and if we even go back to the analogy of the birds flying together, 00:57:48.804 --> 00:57:52.995 that is actually an expression of what collective power looks like in nature. 00:57:53.355 --> 00:57:59.605 There is a leader, but that leader is being fueled by all of the power that's 00:57:59.605 --> 00:58:02.695 behind it, but it takes energy to lead. 00:58:03.229 --> 00:58:08.065 And when that bird's energy is running out, it rotates. 00:58:08.635 --> 00:58:11.675 And it begins to feel the leader that rotated in front of it. 00:58:12.495 --> 00:58:14.810 And they move around in that rotation. 00:58:15.948 --> 00:58:20.139 And to me, that is what distributed power really looks like. 00:58:21.147 --> 00:58:25.287 Well, Robin, I could talk to you all day, but our time has run out. 00:58:25.287 --> 00:58:29.020 And so my last question for you is, as you look into the future of work, 00:58:29.252 --> 00:58:32.127 I think we've been talking about this, but what do you think needs to happen 00:58:32.127 --> 00:58:35.420 so that not only will all people be treated with dignity and respect, 00:58:35.751 --> 00:58:37.696 but they'll be encouraged to thrive and flourish? 00:58:38.486 --> 00:58:45.207 I think that what needs to happen, I think that the emerging workforce is a different workforce. 00:58:45.767 --> 00:58:51.137 And so truly, what got us here is not going to get us there. 00:58:51.137 --> 00:58:55.559 Because we have a body of people who are going to do things differently. 00:58:55.948 --> 00:59:00.697 And so what I think is really, really necessary is that those of us who have 00:59:00.697 --> 00:59:05.869 been in the workplace for a while have the humility to unlearn, 00:59:06.397 --> 00:59:13.357 what got us here and relearn new ways of being and recognize that that is actually 00:59:13.357 --> 00:59:18.164 the path of leadership is learning, unlearning, relearning, and doing it all over again. 00:59:19.383 --> 00:59:22.457 Excellent way to sum up our conversation. Well, Robyn, thank you so much for 00:59:22.457 --> 00:59:24.491 your time, and what a wonderful conversation. 00:59:24.857 --> 00:59:27.469 Thank you so much for having me today. Take care. 00:59:28.302 --> 00:59:31.337 Robyn, thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed, and, 00:59:31.854 --> 00:59:38.417 I wish you all the best as you help people and organizations reorient themselves 00:59:38.417 --> 00:59:46.567 to what it's like to live in this new age of what work looks like and making that fit for all people. 00:59:46.567 --> 00:59:50.837 And that means we have to think about our power structures and what is the structure 00:59:50.837 --> 00:59:54.069 that encourages people to be able to show up and do their best. 00:59:54.883 --> 00:59:58.177 Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services 00:59:58.177 --> 01:00:02.378 and hosted by me, Merry Brown. You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com. 01:00:02.778 --> 01:00:07.265 Come back. We have new episodes every Tuesday. And if you would like and subscribe, 01:00:07.387 --> 01:00:10.493 wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, it's greatly appreciated. 01:00:10.818 --> 01:00:16.015 Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected. 01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:18.407 Let's deal with it. Until next time, take care.