บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep 227, Facing Your Expectations

just kind of walked around and said hi to everybody, 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:38.250 that's fine. But I was really in the weeds. I was really doing the work with 00:04:38.250 --> 00:04:42.595 the other senior nurse's aides. And so I think that was a very intense situation to be in. 00:04:43.390 --> 00:04:47.170 Yeah. I guess when I think about, you know, the candy striper, right? 00:04:47.830 --> 00:04:51.450 That role where you're handing out magazines, then you are sitting high. 00:04:51.450 --> 00:04:55.280 You're more like a cheerleader than, as you said, in the weeds, 00:04:55.280 --> 00:04:59.516 doing that kind of life and death care. 00:05:00.456 --> 00:05:05.797 What kind of support did you receive from management at that time? Do you remember? 00:05:06.636 --> 00:05:13.540 My feeling is that the intensity of the job was normalized and that I was just 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:15.848 kind of looking around myself for cues. 00:05:16.539 --> 00:05:22.410 I remember that I usually assisted some more senior nurse's aides at the time 00:05:22.410 --> 00:05:27.070 who were very helpful and helped me orient a little bit in terms of, 00:05:27.070 --> 00:05:31.084 like, I remember, as I said earlier, that patient who had died two hours after I fed them. 00:05:31.682 --> 00:05:37.000 And I was absolutely like, wait, what? And they could tell that I was bewildered. 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:39.763 And the nurse's aides had said to me, like, look, that was not you. 00:05:40.850 --> 00:05:44.590 She was an older woman. She was not doing well. You did nothing wrong. 00:05:45.230 --> 00:05:48.430 For some reason, I needed to hear that. I needed someone to tell me that because 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:52.702 I just had no way to put that anywhere in my psyche. 00:05:53.685 --> 00:05:56.913 So that was very helpful. And I also remember watching women. 00:05:57.957 --> 00:06:05.595 Taking care of people in such a precise and devoted way. 00:06:06.432 --> 00:06:09.365 And I remember specifically watching people, 00:06:10.285 --> 00:06:14.295 like watching patients getting really relieved when somebody washed them with 00:06:14.295 --> 00:06:18.245 care and took care of their bedding and put them back in the bedding and took 00:06:18.245 --> 00:06:21.795 care of their wounds and make them help them feel really, really comfortable. 00:06:21.795 --> 00:06:27.828 I remember thinking like, wow, that's really a devotion to humanity. That was there too. 00:06:29.725 --> 00:06:33.593 Wow that was intense all the way around from the work to seeing, 00:06:34.385 --> 00:06:39.475 not only just a good work ethic but an ethic of care an ethic of care is something 00:06:39.475 --> 00:06:43.003 very specific this kind of devotion and, 00:06:43.653 --> 00:06:48.045 humility in front of the humanity that's in front of you and being able to to 00:06:48.045 --> 00:06:53.825 work with that and love into that that's that's a wonderful lesson again very 00:06:53.825 --> 00:06:58.285 intense at that age wow so where did you go So from there, where, 00:06:59.245 --> 00:07:00.808 did you major in at the university? 00:07:01.539 --> 00:07:05.737 So an undergrad, I went to Northeastern University in Boston. 00:07:06.057 --> 00:07:08.668 I had a double major in international business and marketing. 00:07:09.202 --> 00:07:14.707 And I chose that school because they had the co-op program where you could go 00:07:14.707 --> 00:07:20.352 to school for six months and then you'd work at a corporate job in your major, hopefully. 00:07:20.561 --> 00:07:23.821 And then you kind of go back and forth. And so the college took about five years. 00:07:24.112 --> 00:07:31.534 And by the time I finished college, I had three internships working at places. I worked at Kraft. 00:07:32.697 --> 00:07:37.247 I worked at AT&T. And then my last one was in Paris. 00:07:37.247 --> 00:07:40.437 I worked at Radio Telephone. 00:07:40.437 --> 00:07:42.787 And I was a marketing assistant, a market research assistant there, 00:07:42.787 --> 00:07:46.277 too. So by the time I graduated, I had a resume, which was very good. 00:07:46.277 --> 00:07:51.047 So I'm not really sure why I chose international business and marketing. 00:07:51.047 --> 00:07:55.157 And I'm thinking that because I think I thought I might live in France at some 00:07:55.157 --> 00:07:58.297 point. Maybe that might have been a good idea. But I don't remember why I chose 00:07:58.297 --> 00:07:59.366 that major, actually. I don't. 00:08:01.252 --> 00:08:05.247 But it's so interesting that, you know, because given the kind of school you 00:08:05.247 --> 00:08:09.447 chose, it sounds like, I mean, I would have imagined your story was like, 00:08:09.447 --> 00:08:12.337 from a little girl, I wanted to do international business. 00:08:12.337 --> 00:08:16.283 And so I found this school that allowed me to do this in marketing. 00:08:16.994 --> 00:08:21.057 But that's so very interesting. I mean, it sounds like a great college experience. 00:08:21.057 --> 00:08:23.310 To have these experiences. 00:08:23.826 --> 00:08:27.187 Yeah, it's really, really helpful. By the time I graduated, I had a real resume 00:08:27.187 --> 00:08:29.857 that I could talk about when I was a market research person. 00:08:29.857 --> 00:08:33.538 That seemed to be something I was falling into. I liked the analytics part of it. 00:08:34.008 --> 00:08:40.997 And I had a resume. But the interesting part is, so I, every time I worked, 00:08:40.997 --> 00:08:43.015 well, a couple things happened in college. One is, 00:08:43.745 --> 00:08:49.202 I found out very quickly that the corporate workplace was not for me. 00:08:49.394 --> 00:08:51.687 Like, I didn't feel comfortable. 00:08:52.192 --> 00:08:55.770 I knew something was intense in a different way. 00:08:56.090 --> 00:09:00.510 Everything from the way people dressed to the way people spoke to each other, 00:09:01.027 --> 00:09:04.241 I always felt like there was something

happening that I didn't quite understand. 00:09:04.468 --> 00:09:08.210 But again, just like the first job I had, it felt like everyone else seemed 00:09:08.210 --> 00:09:10.880 to know what's happening and seemed to be okay in it. And it's just probably 00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:13.610 my, you know, my, I'm not up for it. That's probably what it's about. 00:09:13.610 --> 00:09:15.468 So I used to blame myself a lot and think it was me. 00:09:16.208 --> 00:09:20.303 But I really did, you know, I knew corporate was cut, was a little bit shaky 00:09:20.303 --> 00:09:22.943 for me. So I wasn't really crazy about that. And I didn't know what to do about 00:09:22.943 --> 00:09:26.483 it, actually, because I thought, oh, gosh, I'm a major international business marketing. 00:09:27.073 --> 00:09:28.673 Like, what am I going to do now? 00:09:30.173 --> 00:09:33.873 That's smart. But, you know, and I think it's interesting what you said earlier 00:09:33.873 --> 00:09:37.133 about, like, thinking that I thought about maybe who I wanted to be. 00:09:37.133 --> 00:09:39.973 And it wasn't like that for me at all for school or work or anything. 00:09:39.973 --> 00:09:45.323 In fact, I just sort of, when I look back at how my work evolved over the past 00:09:45.323 --> 00:09:48.513 years, I just sort of started working because money was important. 00:09:49.233 --> 00:09:53.483 I needed some money. And that was the primary reason. And then trying to make 00:09:53.483 --> 00:09:57.702 sense of what work meant to me and the role it played in my life. 00:09:58.137 --> 00:10:01.243 And I couldn't articulate that back then. But now when I look back, 00:10:01.243 --> 00:10:03.280 I was like, oh, I can see what I was searching for. 00:10:03.460 --> 00:10:08.092 I was trying to figure out, like, where I fit in, what work was right for me. 00:10:08.446 --> 00:10:12.843 It never occurred to me that the workplace was disorienting you know those things 00:10:12.843 --> 00:10:15.953 never really occurred to me back then so but yeah it's really interesting look 00:10:15.953 --> 00:10:20.333 back and thinking like every job I tried I'm like nope not that nope not that oh god no not that, 00:10:21.213 --> 00:10:24.413 but I just kept trying and trying different different kinds of jobs. 00:10:25.406 --> 00:10:29.723 So let's talk about that I think it's so interesting first this idea that the 00:10:29.723 --> 00:10:33.973 corporate world was disorienting and it didn't seem right for you but maybe 00:10:33.973 --> 00:10:36.407 it's just me like blaming myself everybody else is, 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.733 buying into this everybody else seems okay so get it together right get it together 00:10:41.733 --> 00:10:44.400 we gotta figure this out and yet, 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:50.863 you kept trying different things so what is that about in you that didn't say 00:10:50.863 --> 00:10:54.432 okay well i'm in here and i'm gonna stick out for the next 10-15 years, 00:10:55.093 --> 00:10:59.823 that there was enough something wasn't right that you tried like what were those 00:10:59.823 --> 00:11:02.918 things that made you say oh i'm gonna try something different i'm gonna try something different? 00:11:03.703 --> 00:11:08.780 I think because I'm deeply curious. 00:11:09.492 --> 00:11:15.941 And I was trying to figure something out. Like, I just knew something wasn't working, it didn't fit. 00:11:16.774 --> 00:11:21.899 I didn't know how to orient around how to think about work or myself in the world. 00:11:22.624 --> 00:11:27.327 And I learned through doing. Like, I learned through failure. That's the biggest way. 00:11:28.447 --> 00:11:30.947 Everything I learned, I did everything wrong. You know, wrong. 00:11:30.947 --> 00:11:33.987 But now I know the right way. That's how I learn. That's just how I kind of 00:11:33.987 --> 00:11:35.110 go through life sometimes. 00:11:35.644 --> 00:11:39.417 And, yeah, I'm deeply curious about, like, why things are the way they are. 00:11:40.327 --> 00:11:43.858 And, yeah, I just want to keep trying because I was just like, 00:11:44.178 --> 00:11:46.053 because remember, it's interesting. Now that I'm thinking about it. 00:11:46.693 --> 00:11:49.917 My dad told me many years ago, if you find a job you'll love, 00:11:49.917 --> 00:11:50.959 you'll never work again. 00:11:52.503 --> 00:11:54.747 And I think that was probably in the back of my mind as well, 00:11:54.747 --> 00:11:57.907 trying to find a job I love that will help me never feel like I have to ever 00:11:57.907 --> 00:11:59.927 work again. Because, of course, like I said, I knew I had to work. 00:11:59.927 --> 00:12:01.697 I needed to make money. I needed to take care of myself. 00:12:02.298 --> 00:12:07.523 But I knew I wanted work to be something else than that. But I didn't know what. 00:12:08.796 --> 00:12:12.767 It's so interesting looking at this search, this curious search, 00:12:12.767 --> 00:12:15.857 this search for the kind of life that you want to live. 00:12:15.857 --> 00:12:19.817 And what I think is interesting about it is that you gave yourself permission 00:12:19.817 --> 00:12:24.027 to keep on searching instead of just accepting, well, this is it. 00:12:24.277 --> 00:12:27.677 I've got the security. I'm just going to wait it out. 00:12:27.677 --> 00:12:32.317 I'm just going to do this thing, which many people fall into for a variety of 00:12:32.317 --> 00:12:37.727 reasons. But you decided on a different path to keep on looking. 00:12:37.727 --> 00:12:40.027 And where are some places you looked and what did you find? 00:12:41.027 --> 00:12:44.967 Well, I appreciate that framing because I was seen as flaky by my family, but okay. 00:12:48.907 --> 00:12:54.177 Reframe reframe let's see so let me think because i think i had i think my last 00:12:54.177 --> 00:13:00.335 count i had about 27 jobs so after the corporate jobs i also had oh i did, 00:13:00.954 --> 00:13:04.697 i guess when you're at school you have

that that that work study where it's 00:13:04.697 --> 00:13:08.447 part of their financial aid package and i i worked at the post office there 00:13:08.447 --> 00:13:12.408 i worked in the animal laboratory taking care of the beagles and the the mice. 00:13:12.838 --> 00:13:15.007 I only did that for one term because I didn't, I was thinking, 00:13:15.007 --> 00:13:17.157 oh, let's take care of animals. But then when I saw what they did to animals, 00:13:17.157 --> 00:13:19.147 I was like, I can't be here for this. No, I just can't do that. 00:13:19.147 --> 00:13:20.277 And monkeys, I couldn't do it. 00:13:21.632 --> 00:13:26.745 I think after, let's see, after college, then I also did, oh, 00:13:26.954 --> 00:13:29.648 I actually, I worked at the post office for a little while longer because I 00:13:29.648 --> 00:13:31.038 was saving up to go to grad school. 00:13:31.038 --> 00:13:35.088 And then for grad school, I went to Howard University in DC and I was majoring 00:13:35.088 --> 00:13:38.498 in film production because I had in my head that, okay, I'm not in the corporate 00:13:38.498 --> 00:13:41.168 person. That's not what I'm doing. Maybe I'm an art person. Maybe I'm, 00:13:41.168 --> 00:13:43.478 you know, I could be, I could make movies. I could be a movie producer. 00:13:43.478 --> 00:13:45.307 I could be a female Spike Lee. Maybe that's it, you know. 00:13:45.627 --> 00:13:48.654 And I had a vision. I mean, I remember thinking that. 00:13:50.746 --> 00:13:55.798 I was really interested how, specifically how Black folks were portrayed in 00:13:55.798 --> 00:13:59.128 the media. At the time, I think I was like Bill Cosby in a different world. 00:13:59.128 --> 00:14:00.940 The Cosby Show in a different world were really big. 00:14:01.411 --> 00:14:05.624 And I just thought, oh, this is really, I would love to be a part of this, like a part of like... 00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:11.792 Helping, just showing a diverse amount of voices on screen. And because I was 00:14:11.792 --> 00:14:15.612 so excited to see people who seem to be from a similar background as myself. 00:14:15.612 --> 00:14:17.130 And I hadn't seen that before. 00:14:17.722 --> 00:14:22.272 So yeah, so I went to Howard University Film School. I was towards the end of 00:14:22.272 --> 00:14:25.464 my study there. I was working on my thesis. 00:14:25.882 --> 00:14:29.197 And a couple things happened at once. It was like one, oops, I'm so sorry. 00:14:30.148 --> 00:14:33.980 A couple things happened at once. My thesis committee fell apart. 00:14:35.502 --> 00:14:40.712 I mean when people had quit were fired etc and at the same time i got a job 00:14:40.712 --> 00:14:42.345 at sony pictures classics in new york city, 00:14:42.987 --> 00:14:45.632 and they had a management training program so that's what brought me brought 00:14:45.632 --> 00:14:50.034 me to new york i was able to i was able to get a be part of their marketing 00:14:50.469 --> 00:14:53.174 what was that i think it was

a marketing team at sony pictures classics yeah 00:14:53.441 --> 00:14:56.892 and that was a really big deal because they were that was when that was in the 00:14:56.892 --> 00:15:01.017 heyday of like really big independent films They were as big as Miramax at the time. 00:15:01.825 --> 00:15:07.452 And I was working in the Sony building on Madison Avenue, right? 00:15:07.452 --> 00:15:09.698 It was a really big building, really fancy, very ritzy. 00:15:10.349 --> 00:15:12.922 And I was very excited to do that because it was like, I'm in New York City. 00:15:12.922 --> 00:15:16.863 I'm thinking, this is so great. I'm, you know, I'm getting in the film business. 00:15:17.722 --> 00:15:26.673 I get there and I am working with the meanest people I ever met in the workplace. 00:15:27.433 --> 00:15:29.407 I had this experience where. 00:15:31.128 --> 00:15:35.280 Yeah, I remember this one time I had I was asked to get FedEx boxes from the 00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:37.133 FedEx place just really downstairs. 00:15:37.377 --> 00:15:40.732 And I brought up two boxes and I got yelled at because I was supposed to bring up three. 00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:45.190 You know, just things like that. And I remember like then saying, 00:15:45.190 --> 00:15:48.380 well, I'm in a Madison. I'm in this whole building. This whole place is so many. 00:15:48.380 --> 00:15:50.676 Maybe I can find someplace else and work someplace else. 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:54.300 And yeah, a lot of people just said, no, it's kind of kind of tough over here, 00:15:54.300 --> 00:15:55.674 too. It's kind of tough over here, too. 00:15:56.086 --> 00:15:58.850 So I remember thinking I haven't talked about this in a while. 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:04.258 I remember thinking, like, oh, wow, this work thing is not working. 00:16:05.553 --> 00:16:07.045 Like, this work thing is not working. 00:16:08.783 --> 00:16:15.716 Yeah, it isn't working for me. And at the time, I also had a job at a hotel. 00:16:15.716 --> 00:16:17.275 I was a hotel operator for a while. 00:16:17.571 --> 00:16:21.756 And that was the one that was really paying the bills because the job at the 00:16:21.756 --> 00:16:24.518 internship wasn't paying a lot. So I needed like a job job to pay the bills. 00:16:24.884 --> 00:16:28.586 So I ended up being a hotel operator for a couple of years because I just kind 00:16:28.586 --> 00:16:31.461 of was like, what am I supposed to do with my life here? Like, 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:34.340 I've been to school. I had this education. 00:16:35.045 --> 00:16:39.288 I can't find anything that I feel really great about, that I feel comfortable doing. 00:16:39.904 --> 00:16:45.134 I will say the one thing I liked about being a hotel operator was I knew what my job was. 00:16:46.056 --> 00:16:48.306 I knew what it was. I knew exactly what I was supposed to do. 00:16:48.306 --> 00:16:51.874 I knew exactly what was good work. I knew exactly what complete work looked like. 00:16:52.181 --> 00:16:55.449 Like, when I left work, I didn't have to worry about it because I knew I did my job well. 00:16:56.158 --> 00:17:01.116 Yeah, I just, you know, and I remember, in fact, I was at that hotel during 9-11. 00:17:02.160 --> 00:17:06.366 And that day we had to do overtime. And I remember, I think I must have answered 00:17:06.366 --> 00:17:09.786 like 1,100 calls. People come from all over the world trying to get a hold of 00:17:09.786 --> 00:17:10.816 their loved ones at the hotel. 00:17:11.116 --> 00:17:14.623 It was a really wild, it was a really just a horrific day. 00:17:14.871 --> 00:17:17.936 But again, that job was the first one that made me think, well, 00:17:18.639 --> 00:17:20.462 it didn't give me a headache. 00:17:20.572 --> 00:17:24.009 Like I knew what I was doing, et cetera. So yeah, and so I did that. 00:17:24.514 --> 00:17:27.926 And then I did that for a couple of years. And then, as I said, 00:17:27.926 --> 00:17:30.998 September 11th happened and they were asking for voluntary layoffs. 00:17:31.873 --> 00:17:37.996 And I thought to myself, I probably shouldn't stay here because I think I'm 00:17:37.996 --> 00:17:39.687 supposed to do something more than this. 00:17:39.838 --> 00:17:42.491 Like something a little bit more interesting than this. 00:17:42.857 --> 00:17:44.836 Even though there was nothing wrong with the job, I just didn't want to, 00:17:45.115 --> 00:17:46.375 I was afraid I'd get stuck there. Yeah. 00:17:47.379 --> 00:17:50.668 Because there had been people there who were hotel operators for many years. 00:17:50.668 --> 00:17:53.518 And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But I didn't want to get stuck there. 00:17:53.858 --> 00:17:59.541 I was looking for something else. And so I took the volunteer layoff package. 00:17:59.803 --> 00:18:02.908 I think it was like $5,000 so I would pay and I could do unemployment. 00:18:03.490 --> 00:18:10.068 And from there, after I left there, I ended up working at a small training. 00:18:10.068 --> 00:18:15.428 I got into a training as a sales rep for training organizations. 00:18:15.428 --> 00:18:19.451 And at the time, people were switching from using film to digital. 00:18:20.038 --> 00:18:24.778 So a lot of editors had to go from using film to like Avid and Final Cut Pro and things like that. 00:18:24.778 --> 00:18:28.908 So for about six or seven years there, I worked at various companies helping 00:18:28.908 --> 00:18:32.448 editors and film people make those transitions. I was a salesperson. 00:18:32.448 --> 00:18:35.989 And so I had clients like HBO and Cinemax, things like that. 00:18:36.227 --> 00:18:38.718 Their editors were coming to learn how to use this new software. 00:18:39.058 --> 00:18:40.338 So I did that for many years. Yeah. 00:18:42.331 --> 00:18:45.496 Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. It's like I just kind of like kept trying different 00:18:45.496 --> 00:18:49.706 things and I picked up things I could see that I was really good at. 00:18:49.706 -->

00:18:52.647 Like in the sales part, I really love the relationship with people. 00:18:52.948 --> 00:18:55.786 I love connecting people with when they said to me, this is what I need. 00:18:55.786 --> 00:18:58.956 And I could say, oh, yes, this is how this can serve you. And I like connecting 00:18:58.956 --> 00:19:02.206 those things for people so that they and I felt good about the class they were 00:19:02.206 --> 00:19:05.296 taking and they felt good about the recommendation. And I remember thinking, 00:19:05.296 --> 00:19:06.292 oh, I kind of like that, too. Yeah. 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.186 What an interesting career trajectory. 00:19:11.606 --> 00:19:15.006 And I want to point out a couple of things. One thing that stood out to me, 00:19:15.006 --> 00:19:18.156 of course, is when you talked about, you know, being in this nice, 00:19:18.156 --> 00:19:22.326 shiny, you know, upper class apartment, I mean, 00:19:23.006 --> 00:19:28.696 building and, you know, all the prestige and the meanest people you've ever worked with. 00:19:29.422 --> 00:19:35.866 You know and it is it's you just can't overstate how important people are you 00:19:35.866 --> 00:19:39.685 know when the people are generous even if the work is really difficult, 00:19:40.347 --> 00:19:44.881 it's just it's just so different and when people are not generous or when they're just mean, 00:19:45.650 --> 00:19:51.446 the best kind of work it just it just evaporates because what you're left with 00:19:51.446 --> 00:19:55.942 what you're dealing with is you know the mean the meanness takes you off of 00:19:56.268 --> 00:19:58.876 what you want to be doing and how you want to be living your life. 00:19:58.876 --> 00:20:01.951 And now it's defensive, posturing. 00:20:02.218 --> 00:20:05.916 Why is this happening? Am I being gaslight? All of your energy from maybe the 00:20:05.916 --> 00:20:08.562 good thing you wanted to do or learn or be in the world. 00:20:09.688 --> 00:20:14.000 It's the people. As you know, it's the people so much. Because if you can get 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.878 the people right, then you can work on systems and you can work on a lot of the other things. 00:20:18.070 --> 00:20:21.907 And then you can see more clearly whether or not this particular organization 00:20:22.273 --> 00:20:26.160 is aligned with what it is you want to do in the world. But if you get the people 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.343 wrong and the structure wrong, it just gets so confusing. 00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:33.930 And it's interesting because when I first became a manager and supervisor and 00:20:33.930 --> 00:20:39.310 oversaw a program myself, I was very aware that I had a direct effect on people's 00:20:39.310 --> 00:20:41.371 experience of work. And I took that very seriously. 00:20:41.534 --> 00:20:45.590 Like, I knew I had direct effect on how I treated staff that would affect how 00:20:45.590 --> 00:20:48.590 they showed up and how they felt about their work. And that was one of

the ways 00:20:48.590 --> 00:20:51.340 I learned to lead people was thinking about how can I keep that in mind? 00:20:51.340 --> 00:20:53.405 Because I agree with you, it's so hard, 00:20:54.052 --> 00:20:59.562 It's so hard to be okay in a work environment when you have people who are not 00:20:59.562 --> 00:21:04.692 kind, who say one thing and do something else, and then act like, 00:21:04.692 --> 00:21:07.182 what do you mean? And kind of act like it's all fine. 00:21:07.742 --> 00:21:13.358 It does something to your psyche because then you're not understanding what you're seeing. 00:21:13.567 --> 00:21:16.352 You're not understanding exactly what's happening. It's hard to wrap your brain 00:21:16.352 --> 00:21:17.722 around what's actually happening. 00:21:18.321 --> 00:21:20.642 It's so interesting talking about this. I'm like, oh, that's probably how I 00:21:20.642 --> 00:21:21.702 ended up getting here. Okay. 00:21:23.002 --> 00:21:25.792 I just thought about that, like, oh, right, yeah, because I just kind of went, 00:21:26.210 --> 00:21:28.562 was searching for myself for many years, and now I kind of just said, 00:21:28.562 --> 00:21:31.923 oh, yeah, we need help orienting in the workplace. Yeah, we really do. 00:21:32.230 --> 00:21:34.722 And then also what you said about the hotel operator, you know, 00:21:34.722 --> 00:21:37.752 that it was very clear what good looked like, what done looked like, 00:21:37.752 --> 00:21:41.332 what it meant to be done, and you knew what you were doing, the expectations. 00:21:41.803 --> 00:21:44.862 And I think I could hear somebody saying in their mind, yeah, 00:21:44.862 --> 00:21:48.246 but that's that kind of job. It's easier to lay that out. 00:21:48.809 --> 00:21:54.034 But I would say that's every job, even in a very creative job, you know, that where, 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:59.362 where there is so much that's up in the air, you can still put guide rails and 00:21:59.682 --> 00:22:04.372 signposts and you can have real elaborate conversations that allow for all the 00:22:04.372 --> 00:22:06.702 squishiness in the in the middle. 00:22:06.702 --> 00:22:12.041 But you can clear it out for people, what they're supposed to be doing, 00:22:12.238 --> 00:22:15.506 what they're not really supposed to be doing, what your expectations are. 00:22:15.849 --> 00:22:19.152 And you can have those. Sometimes we say, oh, this is a creative endeavor. 00:22:19.152 --> 00:22:20.081 We're just going to leave it. 00:22:20.702 --> 00:22:24.423 Actually, then it makes it harder to be creative when... 00:22:25.416 --> 00:22:29.117 I don't, but I know that you want a particular product at the end. 00:22:29.117 --> 00:22:33.227 So you do have an idea. You do know what you want eventually, 00:22:33.227 --> 00:22:34.448 and you know what you don't want. 00:22:35.232 --> 00:22:38.227 Let me in on that. Let me have some of that clarity. Exactly. 00:22:38.227 --> 00:22:39.537 You need parameters, right? 00:22:39.537 --> 00:22:41.777 You need parameters of what your job is and what it isn't. And then, 00:22:41.777 --> 00:22:45.187 of course, as a worker, you do want some autonomy to bring to the actual whatever 00:22:45.187 --> 00:22:48.071 you're doing. But I agree. I just think it's very important that, 00:22:48.542 --> 00:22:51.427 you know, when you're hired for a job, there's a job description. 00:22:51.548 --> 00:22:53.737 But you're applying to. You're not just walking in saying, hey, 00:22:53.737 --> 00:22:55.937 I'll do anything for you. there's a job description, you're looking at it, 00:22:55.937 --> 00:22:58.153 and you're like, oh, yes, I can do this. I have skills for that. 00:22:58.635 --> 00:23:01.387 And then you take that job, and then you get to the job and find out the job 00:23:01.387 --> 00:23:04.067 isn't quite that. It's something else. And you have to, in the moment, 00:23:04.067 --> 00:23:07.243 try to figure out and shift and reorient to, okay, what is this actually? 00:23:07.735 --> 00:23:12.837 And then you find out things like the job description wasn't written by the 00:23:12.837 --> 00:23:14.935 person who's actually supervising you. 00:23:15.357 --> 00:23:18.394 They want something kind of different than what the job description says. 00:23:18.824 --> 00:23:23.187 Yeah, so it's just very interesting how things get disoriented because people 00:23:23.187 --> 00:23:27.317 aren't communicating about what's actually happening versus what they think is happening. 00:23:27.317 --> 00:23:33.837 And so, I mean, so often you've seen this before where like the job description is written by HR, right? 00:23:33.837 --> 00:23:36.917 They're the ones who like really quote unquote clean it up. But then the person 00:23:36.917 --> 00:23:39.867 is actually supervising you wanted something else, but their boss wanted something 00:23:39.867 --> 00:23:44.067 else. And so everyone's has all their thoughts in this job description. 00:23:44.067 --> 00:23:47.801 You're looking at it going, okay, I wonder what's the most important thing I should be doing. 00:23:48.452 --> 00:23:51.847 And then you get there and yeah, if you don't have someone actually telling 00:23:51.847 --> 00:23:55.557 you, okay, this is what we're actually doing, these are the parameters of your 00:23:55.557 --> 00:23:59.037 job, then you're just gonna be responding to relationships and how people treat 00:23:59.037 --> 00:24:01.877 you and whether people tell you you're doing a good job or not. 00:24:01.877 --> 00:24:05.117 And that to me is very, it can also be very detrimental to like, 00:24:05.117 --> 00:24:06.532 how you feel about yourself and work. 00:24:08.122 --> 00:24:11.552 It's a lot of added stress when you're reacting to people and their relationships 00:24:11.552 --> 00:24:15.522 as opposed to being oriented to your job and what you're doing and what you're 00:24:15.522 --> 00:24:16.562 responsible for, you know? 00:24:17.347 --> 00:24:20.772 I think it's really

insightful because as you were talking, I was thinking about, 00:24:21.347 --> 00:24:25.842 who I am in this particular job versus who I am as a professional, right? 00:24:25.842 --> 00:24:29.972 And so if I'm just trying to appease this particular boss or person in front 00:24:29.972 --> 00:24:33.427 of me and I'm responding to they like this, they don't like that, 00:24:33.746 --> 00:24:36.480 I am kind of running around in a particular sort of way versus. 00:24:37.862 --> 00:24:39.732 As we develop ourselves as a professional, 00:24:39.732 --> 00:24:44.851 I'm coming into and I have this knowledge, I have this ability, 00:24:45.281 --> 00:24:48.962 and I'm going to, not that I don't want to deliver what it is that you want 00:24:48.962 --> 00:24:54.102 for me, boss or whoever, but I'm not just chasing that because I have a knowledge base. 00:24:54.102 --> 00:24:58.232 And that's why you hired me. And so I'm going to be able to push back or even 00:24:58.232 --> 00:25:02.802 ask the right kinds of questions. Like I hear, you know, do you see what I'm 00:25:02.802 --> 00:25:08.645 saying? That sort of difference of I'm just trailing you versus more rooted in this is who I am. 00:25:08.813 --> 00:25:10.665 And I can have more of a dialogue with you. 00:25:11.089 --> 00:25:15.320 Even more as not maybe with your boss peer to peer, but closer to that, 00:25:15.529 --> 00:25:16.801 professional to professional. 00:25:17.554 --> 00:25:20.939 Absolutely. It's so interesting because, again, it's, you know, 00:25:20.939 --> 00:25:22.799 the workplaces, it can be a crapshoot, right? 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:25.461 It depends on who's your manager. And it's so interesting because, 00:25:25.885 --> 00:25:30.109 you know, I remember when I became a manager, like I said, like what I was being 00:25:30.109 --> 00:25:33.959 hired to do had almost nothing to do with one of the most important things I 00:25:33.959 --> 00:25:35.196 had to do, which was lead a team. 00:25:35.538 --> 00:25:38.729 Like that wasn't like it was like that was this line in the distribution leading 00:25:38.729 --> 00:25:43.584 a team blah blah but nobody tells you what that actually means day to day what that looks like 00:25:44.014 --> 00:25:48.469 and so yeah and for me what i found out over time when i started leading people 00:25:48.469 --> 00:25:51.167 was i thought the best way i could care for people, 00:25:51.724 --> 00:25:54.959 was not wasn't the pizza parties or like you know being a team player and bringing 00:25:54.959 --> 00:25:58.679 in the donuts my thing for people was like do you understand why what you're 00:25:58.679 --> 00:26:02.009 doing why you're doing this so you don't have to ask me you understand this 00:26:02.009 --> 00:26:05.523 is why you're doing it this is where your jobs start, where it ends. 00:26:06.209 --> 00:26:08.682 And at the end of the day, you know what you need to get done, 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:12.609 and you know what good looks like, and you

understand, and you can assess your 00:26:12.609 --> 00:26:16.339 work for yourself to know if you lived into the standards or not standards that we all agreed upon. 00:26:16.659 --> 00:26:20.409 I'm not, I really made sure that for me, and what I encourage people about is 00:26:20.409 --> 00:26:24.269 like developing standards that everyone can see and everyone can understand, 00:26:24.379 --> 00:26:26.599 not just what you think and I said so sort of thing. 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:31.606 It really helps people develop autonomy for their work. And also, 00:26:32.152 --> 00:26:35.469 I mean, And quite frankly, to lead people that way, I think along with it's 00:26:35.469 --> 00:26:37.919 a lot easier because I didn't have to look over people's shoulders. 00:26:37.919 --> 00:26:40.159 They knew what the standard was and they could live into the standard and they 00:26:40.159 --> 00:26:43.036 would check in with me every once in a while. But I knew the job was getting done. 00:26:43.384 --> 00:26:46.349 So I think that's most important. But, you know, I learned that on my own. 00:26:46.349 --> 00:26:49.779 Like nobody taught me to lead that way. I just knew for myself I had to step 00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:53.819 back and go, OK, I just I know I have a direct effect on people's lives. 00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:57.687 I did a whole bunch of training. I did like, and it's very controversial, but I did landmark. 00:26:58.256 --> 00:27:01.999 And even though that's a little controversial, my favorite, I mean, 00:27:01.999 --> 00:27:06.219 the one thing that I always walked away from that was, without integrity, nothing works. 00:27:07.061 --> 00:27:11.832 You know, you have to say what you say and what you do have to match with people. 00:27:12.488 --> 00:27:15.869 I read a lot of Brene Brown books because I wanted to understand, 00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:18.078 like, what meant to build trust with people. 00:27:18.792 --> 00:27:22.367 And how much I could actually do in the workplace and what actually mattered in the workplace. 00:27:22.722 --> 00:27:25.891 And then I also, one thing I also really recognized too was that, 00:27:26.586 --> 00:27:29.522 and this is kind of the overall thing, my overarching thing about work in general, 00:27:29.522 --> 00:27:33.032 is like I think the way the workplace is set up, 00:27:33.872 --> 00:27:42.674 many of us as workers expect too much from our jobs to meet a lot of needs that our jobs just can't do. 00:27:43.481 --> 00:27:49.642 And I also think a lot of employers are trying to be more than they can actually be to their people. 00:27:51.446 --> 00:27:56.162 Absolutely. I just agree. I mean, this whole question, what is work for? 00:27:56.162 --> 00:27:59.462 What's supposed to be happening there? What should I be expecting? 00:28:00.464 --> 00:28:05.126 And sometimes, in a way, we expect too much, and the organization tries to do 00:28:05.126 --> 00:28:08.983 too much, and sometimes it's the opposite, right? We're treated like machines, you know? 00:28:09.383 --> 00:28:15.446 It's such a—just culture is shifting. Things are shifting where we find meaning. 00:28:16.196 --> 00:28:19.496 There's just so much that is going on, and yet we're all trying to be gainfully 00:28:19.496 --> 00:28:21.926 employed, right? Which is a good thing. Right. Paying our bills. 00:28:22.306 --> 00:28:23.686 Exactly. Yeah. Which is a good thing. 00:28:24.386 --> 00:28:27.006 Yeah, absolutely. Well, and tell us, what are you doing right now? 00:28:27.006 --> 00:28:29.566 So you've done all of these jobs, so what are you up to right now? 00:28:30.853 --> 00:28:35.229 So my work right now is I call myself a work navigation strategist. 00:28:35.502 --> 00:28:38.536 And it's funny, I came up with the title myself because I'm thinking, 00:28:38.536 --> 00:28:40.846 like, what am I really doing? I'm like, I'm working and working. 00:28:41.166 --> 00:28:44.256 I have the tagline that I help people make work work for them. 00:28:44.871 --> 00:28:50.160 And my work is about helping people really be intentional about what work can and cannot do for them. 00:28:50.682 --> 00:28:54.716 And also help people get anchored and oriented in their workplace to what they're 00:28:54.716 --> 00:28:57.706 actually seeing so that they can make decisions that they can trust. 00:28:57.956 --> 00:29:00.776 Because a lot of times when I'm running into, and this is, again, 00:29:00.776 --> 00:29:07.238 for my own situation that I was in, when you're unhappy at work or if you're feeling burnt out, 00:29:08.046 --> 00:29:10.266 but you have to keep your job because you have to pay your bills, 00:29:10.266 --> 00:29:14.246 you just have to figure out a way of how you can hold your job differently as 00:29:14.246 --> 00:29:16.176 opposed to like, oh, I'm going to get up and leave and stuff. 00:29:16.176 --> 00:29:19.566 Some people can't do that. Sometimes the best you can do is figure out how to 00:29:19.566 --> 00:29:20.691 hold the job differently. 00:29:21.364 --> 00:29:24.936 And I just found that these lessons that I learned from all these jobs, 00:29:24.936 --> 00:29:29.579 And plus, as I said earlier, when I first started to manage people, 00:29:29.809 --> 00:29:34.458 I was for an organization that was helping people in mental health recovery go back to work. 00:29:34.621 --> 00:29:37.176 And it was a really comprehensive, intensive training. And at first, 00:29:37.176 --> 00:29:38.306 I was the training coordinator. 00:29:38.746 --> 00:29:43.396 I helped oversee the revision of this program that offered 400 hours of in-class 00:29:43.396 --> 00:29:46.736 training and a 12-week internship and could help people get work afterwards. 00:29:46.736 --> 00:29:50.146 And so I was working with people who were already coming into the situation 00:29:50.146 --> 00:29:54.137 within a vulnerability, right? They had a history about mental health condition of some sort. 00:29:55.239 --> 00:29:59.493 And the job we

were training them to become was called peer support workers, 00:29:59.493 --> 00:30:02.953 which was training them to go into the system and go into the system and help 00:30:02.953 --> 00:30:07.056 people through their own lived experience, help other people in their recovery process. 00:30:07.358 --> 00:30:09.704 So it's in social services. It's a very specific job. 00:30:10.349 --> 00:30:13.903 And so I started looking at the workplace differently from that perspective 00:30:13.903 --> 00:30:17.853 because I was like, okay, so our training is about helping people go from being 00:30:17.853 --> 00:30:22.373 service users to service providers and go into a workplace that was new for 00:30:22.373 --> 00:30:24.672 them and wasn't always clear. 00:30:25.365 --> 00:30:29.803 And the profession itself is sometimes unclear. And so I really started thinking 00:30:29.803 --> 00:30:33.123 about the importance of clarity and orientation so that people could have a 00:30:33.123 --> 00:30:37.143 sense of, like, how do you get oriented in an environment that can be very chaotic 00:30:37.143 --> 00:30:39.808 and be very, and kind of like, because, again, social services, 00:30:40.301 --> 00:30:43.703 social services tends to be understaffed. And there's always a lot of work to do. 00:30:44.323 --> 00:30:47.833 And oftentimes you're just expected to do the work. You're not expected to be 00:30:47.833 --> 00:30:50.543 like, there's nobody saying to you, okay, here's how we're going to do it. 00:30:50.543 --> 00:30:52.413 And being all organized is like, this thing has to get done. 00:30:52.413 --> 00:30:54.476 You go do it. You're not doing anything. You go do it sort of thing. 00:30:54.818 --> 00:30:57.395 Because it's more important to get something done as opposed to figuring out 00:30:57.639 --> 00:31:02.083 having any sort of sense of, like, organization on who does what in social services. 00:31:02.083 --> 00:31:05.713 So I started thinking about that. And so that's what I bring to my work now. 00:31:05.713 --> 00:31:11.253 I just think in terms of, like, what do people need who are burnt out or feeling 00:31:11.253 --> 00:31:14.943 like their jobs aren't working for them or feeling like they have to rethink 00:31:14.943 --> 00:31:16.128 about what work means to them? 00:31:16.795 --> 00:31:19.551 And one of the things I found out from my own work is, like. 00:31:20.735 --> 00:31:23.475 I was talking about earlier, it's like sometimes at work, we somehow got in 00:31:23.475 --> 00:31:26.076 the habit of orienting ourselves around personalities and people. 00:31:26.958 --> 00:31:30.605 And what I encourage people to do is orient around the job itself and let the 00:31:30.605 --> 00:31:33.297 relationships organically develop from there. 00:31:34.075 --> 00:31:36.815 Because when it comes, I mean, that's what you're there to do. 00:31:37.195 --> 00:31:39.675 You're hired to do a job. You weren't hired to be this, you know, 00:31:39.675 --> 00:31:43.086 this just listening to everyone saying around you. You were hired to do this job. So what is the job? 00:31:43.336 --> 00:31:46.482 And yes, oftentimes jobs come together in a very fraught way. 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.775 But part of the beauty of it is like, you know, you want to get back to the 00:31:49.775 --> 00:31:52.578 basics. It's like, what is this job for? Why am I doing this? 00:31:53.065 --> 00:31:56.589 Who am I, you know, what is my job connected to? Who am I connected with? 00:31:57.161 --> 00:31:59.915 You know, where does it start? Where does it end? And if you can't answer those 00:31:59.915 --> 00:32:04.035 questions, I find that that's when people, the second point I want to make is 00:32:04.035 --> 00:32:06.775 like, I find that if people don't realize, think their work belongs, 00:32:06.775 --> 00:32:08.254 then they start wondering if they belong. 00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:12.285 And I find if your work belongs, you're not so worried about whether you belong 00:32:12.285 --> 00:32:14.158 or not. You just know what you're doing matters. 00:32:14.616 --> 00:32:18.095 And that's often much, much steadier and sturdier for the soul, 00:32:18.095 --> 00:32:20.255 if you will. If you know that your work matters, You know exactly what you're 00:32:20.255 --> 00:32:22.016 doing, why you're doing it, and your work belongs. 00:32:22.661 --> 00:32:27.112 Whether you belong or not, it's not so detrimental, I don't think. 00:32:27.766 --> 00:32:30.875 I think that's just really beautifully put, really interesting, 00:32:30.875 --> 00:32:34.945 because so many people find themselves in difficult situations at work. 00:32:34.945 --> 00:32:40.225 You know, there's unresolved conflict. There's a lack of clarity abounds, 00:32:40.225 --> 00:32:44.775 and people just feel really stuck. And a lot of times the advice from the outside 00:32:44.775 --> 00:32:46.743 is, if you're unhappy, change your job. 00:32:47.399 --> 00:32:52.315 Well, I mean sometimes Sometimes you really do need to For your mental or physical health 00:32:52.683 --> 00:32:57.115 But this idea of You have on your website You don't have to change your job 00:32:57.115 --> 00:33:01.365 To change how it feels Yeah I think it's really interesting Because we say, 00:33:01.365 --> 00:33:04.178 okay I'm just gonna I'm gonna leave this And move on to the next Well. 00:33:05.118 --> 00:33:08.671 When you go on to the next, you're still bringing all that stuff with you. 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.325 There is no great, you're still going to be dealing with people and systems. 00:33:12.325 --> 00:33:18.055 And again, of course, sometimes you just have to go for a particular reason. 00:33:18.055 --> 00:33:24.570 But this idea of reorienting yourself, and I love that idea of reorienting about what is this job? 00:33:25.180 --> 00:33:30.108 Apart from personalities, what is this job? What am I doing? What should I be doing? 00:33:30.572 --> 00:33:34.295 What does good or great look like?

When do I know if I've accomplished this? 00:33:34.295 --> 00:33:38.735 And I start honing in on those questions and focusing on those questions. 00:33:38.735 --> 00:33:42.165 It's like, where are we putting our attention? Am I putting my attention in 00:33:42.165 --> 00:33:45.026 that when I walked in today, this person didn't greet me? 00:33:45.532 --> 00:33:49.752 Somebody talked over at me at this meeting, right? Is that where my attention is out here? 00:33:49.967 --> 00:33:53.165 And I understand that's very human and we do want to belong and we do want to 00:33:53.165 --> 00:33:56.630 be treated with dignity and respect and we ought to be, okay? 00:33:57.118 --> 00:34:00.543 And if that's not happening, now what are we going to do? 00:34:01.370 --> 00:34:04.235 That's exactly right. I so love you brought that up. is exactly it. 00:34:04.235 --> 00:34:07.455 When you when you're feeling like your work doesn't belong, you start looking 00:34:07.455 --> 00:34:10.831 if you belong and then you start worried about people greeted you out the door, et cetera. 00:34:11.190 --> 00:34:15.575 And I just find that it's it's so interesting to me because it's so counterintuitive 00:34:15.575 --> 00:34:19.385 that well, not counterintuitive, but more like it seems like logical. 00:34:19.385 --> 00:34:21.865 Of course, you orient around the job. Of course, that's what you're supposed 00:34:21.865 --> 00:34:25.655 to because you were hired to do the job. And that's it. But we all know that 00:34:25.655 --> 00:34:29.785 when you get to work and I think I explained this and I have this on my website, 00:34:29.785 --> 00:34:33.351 I have what I call the Browns Organizational Orientation Theory. 00:34:33.485 --> 00:34:37.575 It's called BOOT. And it's about this idea of how to orient yourself based on 00:34:37.575 --> 00:34:40.688 reference points in your job itself and not relationships to people. 00:34:41.181 --> 00:34:46.005 And I start off the piece talking about how when you first get to a job, 00:34:46.005 --> 00:34:49.530 your nervous system needs to know where you stand. 00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:53.893 And I realized that that's very true for myself. That was very much part of 00:34:53.893 --> 00:34:58.106 every job I ever started. Like, I'm a very nervous person. I'm a very nervous Nellie. 00:34:58.489 --> 00:35:02.218 I'm always kind of vigilant about care and vigilant about danger. 00:35:02.642 --> 00:35:05.513 And so I'm always looking when I first started every job to look about, 00:35:05.513 --> 00:35:08.143 you know, where am I safe? Like, what am I supposed to be doing here? 00:35:08.143 --> 00:35:10.773 What will keep me safe here? What will keep me out of trouble here? 00:35:11.185 --> 00:35:15.771 And that comes from, you know, trauma, if you will. But it's just that's true for me. 00:35:16.369 --> 00:35:19.303 And so, yeah, so if the job isn't clear, then you start saying, 00:35:19.303 --> 00:35:20.753 well, who's the popular people? 00:35:20.753 --> 00:35:23.513 Who has the power, then you start kind of connecting with those people and you 00:35:23.513 --> 00:35:26.553 start like, there's a jockeying for people and that's the office politics and 00:35:26.553 --> 00:35:27.613 all that's very exhausting. 00:35:27.613 --> 00:35:31.713 Like, that's so, and that changes on a daily basis. And yeah, 00:35:31.713 --> 00:35:36.478 this is a lot of, it makes work life very complicated, very stressful. 00:35:36.808 --> 00:35:40.323 And yeah, you just don't know where you stand when you're like that. 00:35:40.323 --> 00:35:45.123 So it makes, so when people say they're burned out, those are one things I look 00:35:45.123 --> 00:35:48.094 at. It's about the relationships at work because that would cause burnout. 00:35:48.390 --> 00:35:50.393 Because it's one thing to do your job, but then on top of that, 00:35:50.393 --> 00:35:52.163 the emotional labor of the jockeying. 00:35:52.779 --> 00:35:57.179 That's a whole different job on top of whatever job you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. 00:35:57.585 --> 00:36:02.193 And I really like this idea of orienting yourself around the work itself. 00:36:02.193 --> 00:36:04.579 It doesn't mean that there aren't office politics. 00:36:05.015 --> 00:36:08.743 You'd be naive to think there aren't. Of course there are. That there aren't 00:36:08.743 --> 00:36:11.263 the popular or the people with the power or whatever it might be. 00:36:11.263 --> 00:36:14.403 Yes, there's all of that. But the question is, where is your focus? 00:36:14.403 --> 00:36:16.015 What are you spending the majority of your time? 00:36:16.943 --> 00:36:19.899 I love this. How do you want to feel? What do you want to be about? 00:36:20.253 --> 00:36:21.808 What do you want to be taking home? 00:36:23.056 --> 00:36:28.913 And if we don't ask ourselves those sorts of questions, then how are we going 00:36:28.913 --> 00:36:32.363 to, first of all, get it if we don't know what it is? And if we don't even know 00:36:32.363 --> 00:36:35.299 that maybe we can curate or arrange our day. 00:36:35.688 --> 00:36:41.743 Well, if I want to feel at peace or I want to feel secure, then if I start working 00:36:41.743 --> 00:36:44.837 backwards, okay, what I'm doing right now, I don't feel that. 00:36:45.598 --> 00:36:50.478 Are there other avenues? What could I be doing instead? And this focus of, 00:36:50.478 --> 00:36:53.688 okay, how do I major on my job? 00:36:53.688 --> 00:37:01.204 And how do I, I just think this really helpful way of thinking about, can I stay here? 00:37:01.470 --> 00:37:04.715 And, you know, can I stay here and have a healthy environment? 00:37:05.213 --> 00:37:07.168 And that doesn't mean you're going to get it because you want it. 00:37:07.168 --> 00:37:14.055 It might take a year. It might take a couple of years of reorienting yourself, retraining yourself. 00:37:14.450 --> 00:37:20.048 What are you going to focus on it's a it's a process to get and of course

depending 00:37:20.048 --> 00:37:22.533 on what is going on the chaos going on around you. 00:37:23.561 --> 00:37:29.198 To to find a different way of being at work yes and i think one of the things 00:37:29.198 --> 00:37:32.118 i always work with people on is their expectations, 00:37:32.818 --> 00:37:37.868 i find that people are often get stuck at saying it should be this way yes yeah 00:37:37.868 --> 00:37:39.858 you're right what you're saying makes sense. 00:37:39.858 --> 00:37:42.856 It's very understandable. It's reasonable to want that. 00:37:43.529 --> 00:37:45.278 But is it that way? Yes. 00:37:46.292 --> 00:37:49.710 No, but it's supposed to be. It's like, again, I will say, what you're saying 00:37:49.710 --> 00:37:55.200 is reasonable, understandable, but if it's not that way, it might be helpful 00:37:55.200 --> 00:37:59.600 to adjust that expectation to what it is and then see what you can do with that. 00:37:59.745 --> 00:38:04.110 Yeah. And people find a lot of relief when they're able to really face their 00:38:04.110 --> 00:38:07.040 expectations and understand that they could have, like I said, 00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:08.974 an understandable expectation, but it's just not there. 00:38:09.451 --> 00:38:12.640 You know, if you have a boss who, you know, doesn't validate you, 00:38:12.640 --> 00:38:15.003 and if you look around and think about it, they don't validate anyone. 00:38:15.461 --> 00:38:18.710 Like that's not what they do you can kind of say to yourself oh that's right 00:38:18.710 --> 00:38:21.700 they don't validate anybody they just sort of do what they do okay got it so 00:38:21.700 --> 00:38:24.390 now you can let that go because you're just like it's not like they're not validating 00:38:24.390 --> 00:38:27.768 you and your work it's like that's not how they rule okay got it 00:38:28.052 --> 00:38:31.397 and we can start making those kinds of distinctions for yourself 00:38:31.821 --> 00:38:36.160 what's actually happening and kind of watching what people say watch what people 00:38:36.160 --> 00:38:39.300 do instead of what they say and start matching your decisions based on what's 00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:41.858 actually happening you find a lot of relief. 00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:45.560 I just find you find a lot of relief because now you're working within what's 00:38:45.560 --> 00:38:47.054 actually happening. Yes. 00:38:47.570 --> 00:38:50.700 Not in how you wish it was. I feel like we're sharing the same brain. 00:38:50.700 --> 00:38:54.650 I 100% agree. I mean, it's those we come against those sheds. 00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:55.552 This shouldn't be happening. 00:38:55.784 --> 00:38:58.916 My boss isn't fair. They should be fair. Yeah, they should be fair. And they're not. Okay. 00:38:59.346 --> 00:39:02.370 So now you're not in a fair system. What are you going to do about it? 00:39:02.846 --> 00:39:07.522 What can you do? What can you work within? How can you realign your expectations if you cannot leave? 00:39:08.009 --> 00:39:11.930 How can you leave this mental load? How can you reduce that? 00:39:11.930 --> 00:39:17.286 How can you just live and let live and accept that person is wrong okay and 00:39:17.535 --> 00:39:21.192 now we don't have to ruminate on that anymore i'm not letting anybody off the hook. 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.200 All of us are in broken systems i mean we're dealing with messy people we're 00:39:25.200 --> 00:39:28.980 all people on the way we find ourselves in different places how somebody is 00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:32.370 one day doesn't mean that's how they're going to be the next or the five years 00:39:32.370 --> 00:39:36.976 same with us right that is the way of things and we can still expect justice, 00:39:37.651 --> 00:39:42.258 and right it's like and and and it's not either or so we can stack all these 00:39:42.258 --> 00:39:46.654 things and then look at our pool of reality and say well what do i want, 00:39:47.310 --> 00:39:51.408 how do i want to feel what am i going to do and that's i think is so much about 00:39:51.408 --> 00:39:55.558 taking power at work and responsibility for ourself instead of giving it to 00:39:55.558 --> 00:39:59.278 somebody else this is not fair so i can't, 00:39:59.813 --> 00:40:02.548 i'm gonna be upset yes you. 00:40:03.408 --> 00:40:06.709 Can give that to somebody else and tell them to fix it. 00:40:07.353 --> 00:40:10.128 But if they say, I don't care, or I don't know, or no, it's not. 00:40:10.764 --> 00:40:15.554 Okay. Well, now I'm either stuck or I'm going to do something different. 00:40:16.234 --> 00:40:20.274 Exactly. It's so important. I think this is a really important point to, 00:40:20.547 --> 00:40:24.006 no matter what situation you're in, to try to find your agency in it. 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.665 And agency always starts with your perspective. 00:40:27.208 --> 00:40:29.878 And perspective is always about, starts with curiosity. Like, 00:40:29.878 --> 00:40:33.377 okay, I'm seeing it this way. What am I missing? Like, what else could this be? 00:40:34.258 --> 00:40:37.095 Does it have to be this way? And if it could be something else, 00:40:37.095 --> 00:40:40.870 what else could it be? And what role could I play in making it this way? 00:40:41.177 --> 00:40:44.385 I think that curiosity is like the most important thing. You can kind of switch 00:40:44.385 --> 00:40:46.555 everything around and start asking yourself, what could this be? 00:40:46.555 --> 00:40:49.098 What could I? This was a successful piece. 00:40:49.214 --> 00:40:51.042 This was a successful role. 00:40:51.518 --> 00:40:55.552 What does that look like to me? And there's anything I can do about it to make that happen. 00:40:56.205 --> 00:41:00.078 I think that's really possible, more possible than we give credit for. 00:41:00.565 --> 00:41:04.155 I think sometimes, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, I think also when we ask these 00:41:04.155 --> 00:41:07.245 sorts of questions, we do have limiting

beliefs like, I cannot, 00:41:07.925 --> 00:41:09.951 I have to say in this job, I cannot. 00:41:10.246 --> 00:41:15.883 Now, again, of course, sometimes, 100%, but sometimes we just tell ourselves that. 00:41:16.197 --> 00:41:20.214 And when we start asking these curious questions, we might find, 00:41:20.724 --> 00:41:23.859 you know, we just now open up possibilities. We open up. 00:41:24.289 --> 00:41:28.725 And so I want to look at some of these questions that you've found on your website. 00:41:28.725 --> 00:41:30.744 So anybody can go out and look at Linnea's website. 00:41:31.075 --> 00:41:34.735 You have six questions to help you reconsider the way you work. 00:41:34.735 --> 00:41:37.525 So she's got six questions and then questions within those questions. 00:41:37.525 --> 00:41:41.475 So if you're like, great, be curious, I don't know, these are some wonderful 00:41:41.475 --> 00:41:46.406 questions. Would you want to talk about any of these, how you help clients start, 00:41:46.754 --> 00:41:49.661 I don't know, if you talk about getting unstuck or thinking about the next? 00:41:50.671 --> 00:41:55.629 Well, I'll start with how I came, developed the questions themselves was I was thinking about. 00:41:56.656 --> 00:41:59.924 When you're considering reestablishing a relationship to work, 00:41:59.924 --> 00:42:01.171 what you have agency over. 00:42:01.612 --> 00:42:04.744 And one of the things you have agency over is your perception and how you show 00:42:04.744 --> 00:42:06.824 up. That is one thing you can actually control. 00:42:07.278 --> 00:42:12.504 And I started thinking about the people that I had worked with and what we worked 00:42:12.504 --> 00:42:16.144 on their training, what was in the training that we offered and helping people 00:42:16.144 --> 00:42:19.864 come to a workplace that wasn't meant for their health and well-being. 00:42:19.864 --> 00:42:23.775 There's jobs to do, but how do you take care of yourself in those moments? 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:28.934 And I used to see people like coming to work with expectations that were, 00:42:28.934 --> 00:42:31.850 again, reasonable, but weren't available. 00:42:32.088 --> 00:42:36.094 I mean, reasonable, but not available. Yeah, exactly. 00:42:36.394 --> 00:42:39.144 And they couldn't be met and people get stuck in those ideas. 00:42:39.144 --> 00:42:43.364 And so these questions that I came up with are just about kind of fishing around 00:42:43.364 --> 00:42:47.984 to think about what are you actually bringing to work that you actually have 00:42:47.984 --> 00:42:49.472 control over those perceptions, 00:42:50.328 --> 00:42:51.834 and also get really intentional about it. 00:42:51.834 --> 00:42:55.914 I mean, the first question in the series is like, you know, what does your relationship 00:42:55.914 --> 00:42:57.439 to work? Like, what does it mean to you? 00:42:57.805 --> 00:43:03.074 And I think that's a question that I still am very, it's hard to answer for 00:43:03.074 --> 00:43:05.454 me to sometimes. It's like, what does work mean to me? It's like, 00:43:05.454 --> 00:43:08.326 yes, okay, it's my bills. Yes. But what else does it actually mean? 00:43:08.709 --> 00:43:11.104 And then when you start asking yourself these questions, then you can start 00:43:11.104 --> 00:43:14.014 getting clearer about what you think work is supposed to be. 00:43:14.014 --> 00:43:19.294 It might give you some clues about why the job you have right now is not working 00:43:19.294 --> 00:43:23.419 for you. It might just be you have an expectation that just can't be met. 00:43:24.576 --> 00:43:27.764 You might be bringing some dynamics to the workplace that really have nothing 00:43:27.764 --> 00:43:28.904 to do with the workplace itself. 00:43:28.904 --> 00:43:31.464 It just means by something you're a limited belief that you said earlier. 00:43:31.464 --> 00:43:34.024 You might bring in a limited belief and like living it out at work. 00:43:34.024 --> 00:43:38.734 There's also things that you could be doing that you might change and change 00:43:38.734 --> 00:43:41.764 your perception about in order to like change your experience of work. 00:43:41.764 --> 00:43:45.122 So that's why I started with just questions of what are you bringing to work, 00:43:45.850 --> 00:43:46.732 that you could actually... 00:43:47.477 --> 00:43:51.912 Change your perception around that could actually affect how you experience work? 00:43:52.579 --> 00:43:56.353 I love that question because as we start thinking about it ourselves, 00:43:56.689 --> 00:44:01.387 a lot of times we just assume people have the same sort of expectations that we do. 00:44:01.387 --> 00:44:05.507 So if I come to work and a part of what I want at work is a work family, 00:44:05.507 --> 00:44:08.537 like I hear that a lot, you know, so I think other people want that, 00:44:08.537 --> 00:44:11.847 but Susie doesn't want to go to drinks, so she's a bad worker, right? 00:44:12.167 --> 00:44:15.857 Because she doesn't want the same thing that I want from work, right? 00:44:16.310 --> 00:44:21.137 And so once I start thinking that, maybe I can really live and let live. 00:44:21.137 --> 00:44:25.458 Okay, this is what I want from work right now. And Susie wants something else. 00:44:25.708 --> 00:44:27.873 And Jared wants something else. Okay. 00:44:28.587 --> 00:44:32.947 Okay. So as long as, you know, we've got the job, the job is the job, 00:44:32.947 --> 00:44:38.757 but what I want from it or what I'm psychically trying to get from it, 00:44:38.757 --> 00:44:42.820 What kind of meaning-making in my life as a whole am I trying to achieve? 00:44:43.527 --> 00:44:47.347 You know, those are just different kinds of answers. And people are in all different 00:44:47.347 --> 00:44:51.657 sorts of places. And that might help me understand my calling better if I understand 00:44:51.657 --> 00:44:53.427 myself better. That's an important point. 00:44:53.847 --> 00:44:55.626 I

just love what you just said earlier, which was like, you know, 00:44:56.287 --> 00:44:58.527 I want a family, but, you know, my coworker doesn't. 00:44:58.867 --> 00:45:00.527 And instead of thinking they're not a team player, it's like, 00:45:00.527 --> 00:45:02.847 no, that's not what they want from this experience. This is what I want, 00:45:02.847 --> 00:45:04.774 not what they want. And that's such an important distinction. 00:45:05.001 --> 00:45:07.687 And, again, it's about helping you being curious, not only about yourself, 00:45:07.687 --> 00:45:11.577 but other people. Just so it can, I mean, your whole practice is about conflict 00:45:11.577 --> 00:45:14.757 management. I mean, that's where it comes from. It's just to be curious, 00:45:14.757 --> 00:45:17.747 not to assume that you understand what other people are doing and feeling and 00:45:17.747 --> 00:45:18.867 why they're doing what they're doing. 00:45:19.367 --> 00:45:23.107 Yeah, absolutely. And I think it can also help us be a little bit cautious in 00:45:23.107 --> 00:45:27.397 our talk. Because when I'm in a meeting, let's say an organization, 00:45:27.397 --> 00:45:30.038 and somebody says, we're like a family here. 00:45:30.525 --> 00:45:32.220 And I believe... 00:45:34.220 --> 00:45:36.399 I believe that it could be that the person really thinks that, 00:45:36.399 --> 00:45:37.923 and that's really their experience. 00:45:38.201 --> 00:45:42.079 But I know enough that that's probably not everybody's experience. 00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:46.688 And so they're internally rolling their eyes or externally rolling their eyes. 00:45:46.944 --> 00:45:50.519 They have different experiences. They just want different sorts of things, 00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:54.259 and that's making them upset. Some people, it's making them happy because that's what they want. 00:45:54.548 --> 00:45:58.809 Or somebody else says, no, we're not looking for work friends here. 00:45:58.809 --> 00:46:00.853 We all just come here and get our job done and leave. 00:46:01.144 --> 00:46:04.439 And I know that other people are thinking, well, that's not how I feel. 00:46:04.439 --> 00:46:09.669 This person's my work BFF. And this person, you know, it's going to be in my wedding party. 00:46:09.669 --> 00:46:14.036 And so this idea that my experience of work, what I want from work, 00:46:15.198 --> 00:46:19.009 that maybe we ought to hold back from making these pronouncements like this 00:46:19.009 --> 00:46:24.050 is what it's like here as if it's this monolith for everybody or should be. 00:46:26.349 --> 00:46:30.979 I love this distinction so much because it's absolutely true when i think about 00:46:30.979 --> 00:46:34.369 what people how they experience work and how they think that that's what's actually 00:46:34.369 --> 00:46:39.757 happening for everyone and it's not that's absolutely true it was it was really interesting it's like, 00:46:40.617 --> 00:46:44.941 You have these environments that say we're a

family and then we always get together, et cetera. 00:46:45.516 --> 00:46:51.187 And yet they do nothing to take care of that manager they know is actually not 00:46:51.187 --> 00:46:54.587 doing a good job and really psychologically hurting people. And they do nothing 00:46:54.587 --> 00:46:56.885 about them. So you're telling me we're a family. 00:46:57.740 --> 00:47:01.299 And you know this person is actually doing damage to workers. 00:47:01.602 --> 00:47:04.062 And you're letting them in that position, not doing anything about it. 00:47:04.451 --> 00:47:08.167 So right there, I'm just going, yeah, we're not a family. We're not a family. 00:47:08.167 --> 00:47:11.452 You're not doing anything about this. So you don't care about what we're doing. 00:47:11.714 --> 00:47:15.037 You don't care how I feel about the job here. So those are the things that really 00:47:15.037 --> 00:47:17.477 erode trust. And this kind of goes back to what I was talking about earlier 00:47:17.477 --> 00:47:21.998 that I think sometimes jobs want to try to do more than they can actually promise. 00:47:22.120 --> 00:47:24.976 You know, I mean, they try to promise more than they can actually do is what I mean. 00:47:25.208 --> 00:47:28.137 They try to be like, we're a family. But you know what it takes to actually 00:47:28.137 --> 00:47:30.426 have a family? To actually build trust? 00:47:31.029 --> 00:47:33.117 To actually have each other's back? What that really looks like? 00:47:33.117 --> 00:47:35.720 And how you have to, like, have managers who will back that up? 00:47:35.882 --> 00:47:39.677 And have managers that will back up the staff and create an environment of safety 00:47:39.677 --> 00:47:42.167 so people feel safe to be able to say, oh, I made this mistake. 00:47:42.167 --> 00:47:45.419 Can you help me figure out what to do about it instead of hiding their mistakes? 00:47:45.657 --> 00:47:48.176 Things like that. I mean, that takes a lot of skill. 00:47:48.774 --> 00:47:52.287 That takes a lot of intentional thought. You can't just say we're a family if 00:47:52.287 --> 00:47:55.264 you're, I mean, when you're not really backing that up. And so, 00:47:55.624 --> 00:47:58.649 yeah, I just think it's very, I said earlier, it's very dangerous to say, 00:47:58.852 --> 00:48:03.667 you know, work is this one thing when other people are saying, no, it's not. Yeah. 00:48:04.397 --> 00:48:08.437 I see that with conflict. You know, somebody will say, oh, our work environment's 00:48:08.437 --> 00:48:11.727 a dumpster fire. Everybody hates each other. And then I just go around and start 00:48:11.727 --> 00:48:14.577 talking to people and somebody says, that's the best place I've ever worked. 00:48:14.885 --> 00:48:18.007 And, you know, of course, you know, in the kind of work that we do, 00:48:18.007 --> 00:48:20.607 somebody will present to me. It doesn't mean that's, you know, 00:48:20.607 --> 00:48:23.064 you've got to eventually whatever will come out. 00:48:23.505 --> 00:48:26.887 But that is the way of things. Somebody thinks, no, everything is fine here. 00:48:26.887 --> 00:48:28.897 And somebody else is like, are you kidding me? 00:48:29.565 --> 00:48:33.855 Again, assuming that my experience and what I see because what I value... 00:48:34.874 --> 00:48:38.994 And, of course, sometimes an individual is being bullied by somebody and everybody 00:48:38.994 --> 00:48:42.081 else thinks that person's great and they're doing it. I mean, it's just to think. 00:48:42.399 --> 00:48:46.464 And, of course, sometimes it is the case that everybody happens to agree that 00:48:46.464 --> 00:48:49.361 it's good, it's bad, it's indifferent. That's very rare. 00:48:49.663 --> 00:48:54.314 And we ought not assume it because even so sometimes when I'll do conflict and 00:48:54.314 --> 00:48:58.764 I'll have like, say, five, six people and they're having a problem with somebody else. 00:48:58.764 --> 00:49:02.709 And they want to get together and have some sort of facilitated conversation 00:49:03.057 --> 00:49:04.747 because they all have this problem. 00:49:05.314 --> 00:49:10.514 I won't do that because I won't just go right into it because they all five 00:49:10.514 --> 00:49:15.857 or six say, we've got this problem with this other person, but I know it's not all the same problem. 00:49:16.449 --> 00:49:20.854 You know, you say this person is causing these problems, but when I talk to 00:49:20.854 --> 00:49:23.398 each person individually, it's different. 00:49:23.728 --> 00:49:27.694 And the difference really makes a difference in how we're going to actually 00:49:27.694 --> 00:49:29.730 address the behavioral issues and move forward. 00:49:30.520 --> 00:49:35.214 Because, you know, Sally might think that, you know, It's this one behavior 00:49:35.214 --> 00:49:38.054 that's the problem And somebody else might not have a problem with that behavior 00:49:38.054 --> 00:49:40.400 It's some other sort of behavior they have a problem You know, and so. 00:49:41.410 --> 00:49:47.480 Just getting more used to the fact that each person brings a narrative and each 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:49.142 person brings a perspective, 00:49:49.670 --> 00:49:54.140 but we can talk about external behaviors that are or are not acceptable in a 00:49:54.170 --> 00:49:57.790 work environment and start moving forward in that way. 00:49:57.790 --> 00:50:03.960 But when we sort of think it's one way, it's a barrier to addressing difficult 00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:09.351 behaviors or the kinds of behaviors that we want, if we think in this monolithic way. 00:50:10.064 --> 00:50:12.800 And I think it's really interesting you're bringing this up because I think 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:17.110 it's interesting from an HR perspective, you're, you know, for employment law 00:50:17.110 --> 00:50:19.288 reasons, you're supposed to work with people's behavior. 00:50:19.775 --> 00:50:23.790 But when you're in a relationship to people, there's

something happening behind that behavior. 00:50:24.490 --> 00:50:29.290 And so as a manager or some colleague, you want to understand what are they 00:50:29.290 --> 00:50:32.877 seeing or thinking or where's their perception? So that's the behavior that's showing up. 00:50:33.131 --> 00:50:37.010 Because oftentimes I find too with conflict, if you just get curious about, 00:50:37.010 --> 00:50:39.750 okay, we're not, conflict to me is just like, okay, we're not on the same page. 00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:43.410 All right. So let's get on the same page because we're obviously telling each 00:50:43.410 --> 00:50:45.781 other different stories about what this actually is happening here. 00:50:46.013 --> 00:50:49.200 And if you can kind of push the ego aside to be like, okay, what am I seeing? 00:50:49.200 --> 00:50:51.640 What am I thinking it is? What are you thinking? Oh, okay. Now we can actually 00:50:52.059 --> 00:50:53.476 play kind of figure out where everyone is. 00:50:54.726 --> 00:50:58.104 Yeah, I just find that it's really important that you understand why people 00:50:58.104 --> 00:51:00.304 are doing what they're doing to get some sense. 00:51:00.537 --> 00:51:03.816 Because then if you can kind of understand that, you can appeal to them differently 00:51:04.107 --> 00:51:09.334 and be able to help adjust their perception and the behavior will change after that. 00:51:09.334 --> 00:51:12.684 That's how it usually works. Like if the perception shifts, then the behavior 00:51:12.684 --> 00:51:16.086 will shift a lot of the times. But yeah, I think that's so important because, 00:51:16.544 --> 00:51:21.524 I know, like I said, for HR, they want you to really focus on behavior because 00:51:21.524 --> 00:51:22.710 that's what you can prove. 00:51:23.702 --> 00:51:27.684 But that's not a way to relate to someone. Right. That's not the way you relate to people. 00:51:28.484 --> 00:51:32.514 Right. Again, it's that both and. So these are the standards behaviors that 00:51:32.514 --> 00:51:35.440 we're going to allow here, and these are the ones that we're not going to allow. 00:51:35.858 --> 00:51:42.334 But if we want people to not give lip service and to be successful in executing 00:51:42.334 --> 00:51:47.224 these civil or cooperative behaviors, then we need to understand, right? 00:51:47.224 --> 00:51:50.804 So behavior follows thinking. I think a certain thing, and therefore I act. 00:51:50.804 --> 00:51:56.514 So most behaviors, very, very rarely will somebody be doing something that they 00:51:56.514 --> 00:51:59.646 think is not okay or justified. 00:51:59.982 --> 00:52:04.994 So if somebody thinks this behavior is okay, why? What is the thinking? 00:52:04.994 --> 00:52:08.164 So, oh, okay, this is your understanding. This is how you were onboarded. 00:52:08.164 --> 00:52:11.279 This is how it was in your family of origin. This is how it was someplace else. 00:52:11.848 --> 00:52:15.411 Oh, you feel like it's justified because you're not getting paid enough. Okay. 00:52:16.138 --> 00:52:20.503 Okay, so now I understand why it's coming. And the why of the behavior, 00:52:20.788 --> 00:52:25.174 if we're actually looking for a long-term sustainable change or we're looking 00:52:25.174 --> 00:52:29.354 for a reorientation, a healthy work environment, then we really need to understand 00:52:29.354 --> 00:52:30.488 where they're coming from. 00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:34.054 And then somebody decides to do it or not do it. 00:52:34.054 --> 00:52:40.684 But our job is to come alongside insofar as we can to help people do the right 00:52:40.684 --> 00:52:43.954 sorts of things. Now, people can decide not to, and then we can part ways. 00:52:43.954 --> 00:52:47.250 But if we want a better chance of... 00:52:48.171 --> 00:52:52.351 Them getting on board, and then us understanding what's wrong in the system. 00:52:52.351 --> 00:52:54.288 Why did somebody get this message? 00:52:54.613 --> 00:52:57.696 How were they not on boarded? How were they not trained? What's not clear? 00:52:57.847 --> 00:53:00.111 A lot of things. So how can we get clear? 00:53:00.802 --> 00:53:03.661 Yeah, and it's important because as we said earlier, it's oftentimes we're getting 00:53:03.661 --> 00:53:07.761 mixed messages from our job description to the supervisor, to the department, 00:53:07.761 --> 00:53:09.091 everyone's saying something different. 00:53:09.091 --> 00:53:12.841 And so it's easy to understand why someone's behavior might kind of fall out 00:53:12.841 --> 00:53:16.891 of whack if their perception is not based on anything that's very clear to what's 00:53:16.891 --> 00:53:19.286 actually happening. So I think it is important to be really curious. 00:53:19.473 --> 00:53:22.121 And I also especially love, especially when it comes to conflict, 00:53:22.121 --> 00:53:28.951 I think it's really important to assume good intention, right? 00:53:28.951 --> 00:53:33.581 To assume that this person, their behavior might be disruptive, 00:53:33.581 --> 00:53:37.771 but they're not trying to be disruptive. They're trying to get something else. 00:53:37.771 --> 00:53:39.670 So let me see what they're trying to get. Like I said earlier, 00:53:39.913 --> 00:53:41.891 very rarely just people are just doing something to be evil. 00:53:43.153 --> 00:53:46.541 It's like because there's something they're trying to get. There's something 00:53:46.541 --> 00:53:49.155 they're trying to meet. There's something they're trying to express. 00:53:49.602 --> 00:53:55.691 And if you can understand where that's coming from, then you can help reorient their expectations. 00:53:56.051 --> 00:54:00.184 That's really important. Reorient people's expectations about what work is and what it can't do. 00:54:01.032 --> 00:54:05.561 And I think sometimes what some people might call difficult personalities or 00:54:05.561 --> 00:54:08.907 it's difficult for them or hard, right? Hard is whatever's hard for you. 00:54:09.302 -->

00:54:12.911 So even with those people that we feel like they're pushing, they're pushing. 00:54:13.331 --> 00:54:15.410 They don't want to play nice. They're not being civil. 00:54:16.098 --> 00:54:19.086 We can, you know, if I try to go with them and figure out, well, 00:54:19.086 --> 00:54:21.213 what is it they're trying to accomplish? 00:54:21.602 --> 00:54:24.916 And let's suppose they're trying to accomplish something that is meaningful, 00:54:24.916 --> 00:54:28.036 maybe even something that I like, but I don't like their means or the means 00:54:28.036 --> 00:54:30.576 in which they're doing it. The way in which they're trying to bring it about 00:54:30.576 --> 00:54:35.057 are just out of step with this particular organization's values of how we treat people. 00:54:35.452 --> 00:54:39.161 So you can talk with that person, like, is this what you're trying to do? 00:54:39.575 --> 00:54:42.430 You know, and make sure that you're clear, right? Getting curious with them. 00:54:42.779 --> 00:54:44.457 And then is this how you're trying to do it? 00:54:44.984 --> 00:54:47.655 And say, well, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but we're not going to, 00:54:48.009 --> 00:54:51.656 we're not going to, at this organization, that's not the means we're going to 00:54:51.656 --> 00:54:56.885 use. So what are some means that you can use? What are some avenues for you to accomplish this? 00:54:57.482 --> 00:55:01.006 And if you're unwilling to do this, then this may not be the place for you. 00:55:01.006 --> 00:55:04.436 As you said, like, you know, earlier, if you've got somebody who is causing 00:55:04.436 --> 00:55:09.996 problems for everybody else, and we don't do anything about it, that is such a sign. 00:55:10.240 --> 00:55:13.716 I mean, it's a sign of good leadership, and everybody sees it and everybody loses faith. 00:55:13.716 --> 00:55:19.376 And it just, it is very toxic. I mean, toxin is a good word because of what 00:55:19.376 --> 00:55:25.436 happens when we don't sit and think. But how can we try to bring that person 00:55:25.436 --> 00:55:27.220 into a vault? How can we try? 00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:31.364 But each, you know, we're adults and people decide what they're gonna do and 00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:32.763 how they're gonna move forward. 00:55:33.606 --> 00:55:36.656 Yeah, that's very true. And it really, and again, going back to like figuring 00:55:36.656 --> 00:55:40.706 out why people do what they do and how they see the world and dealing with so-called 00:55:40.706 --> 00:55:42.418 difficult personalities, especially... 00:55:43.498 --> 00:55:46.930 Again, if someone's a difficult personality in power over you, 00:55:46.930 --> 00:55:50.946 that's really hard to do a lot about versus someone who's maybe a colleague, 00:55:51.790 --> 00:55:53.200 who has a difficult personality. 00:55:53.200 --> 00:55:55.700 Maybe, you know, they're doing something or saying something that you don't 00:55:55.700 --> 00:55:58.240 like or something. I think those because then you don't have the power dynamics 00:55:58.240 --> 00:56:01.730 to worry about. Because if someone's in power over you and they're just terrible, 00:56:01.730 --> 00:56:04.540 they're a toxic person and they're creating a toxic environment, 00:56:04.540 --> 00:56:06.107 it is very difficult to maneuver. 00:56:06.933 --> 00:56:10.490 It is very hard to maneuver that because now you're not just talking about how 00:56:10.490 --> 00:56:13.202 you maneuver the personality, but now you're talking about danger to your job. 00:56:13.446 --> 00:56:16.570 And you're not sure how much danger you're actually in when it comes to your job. 00:56:16.570 --> 00:56:19.910 And especially when you're in an environment where, again, I see this in workplaces 00:56:19.910 --> 00:56:25.345 a lot, where, you know, unless the manager is doing something absolutely illegal, 00:56:26.038 --> 00:56:28.790 you know, they'll basically be fine. 00:56:28.790 --> 00:56:31.300 You know, they have to be doing something really illegal for them to get in 00:56:31.300 --> 00:56:32.167 any kind of real trouble. 00:56:33.310 --> 00:56:36.420 Being a poor manager is not a reason to fire people, which I think is so strange 00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:39.930 because if this manager is really bad at their job and they're really making 00:56:39.930 --> 00:56:42.500 the whole team miserable, like, you're not going to get the best out of the 00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:45.957 team that's there. You're just not. There's no way to do that. Yeah. 00:56:47.410 --> 00:56:51.170 Oh, my goodness. We could talk all day long. But my last question for you today, 00:56:51.170 --> 00:56:52.615 as I see the time is getting away from us, 00:56:53.207 --> 00:56:57.920 what do you think needs to happen when you look into the future so that not 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.550 only will all workers be treated with dignity and respect, but that they'll 00:57:01.550 --> 00:57:03.450 be encouraged to thrive and flourish? 00:57:04.407 --> 00:57:08.820 And the basis of my work is just helping people orient themselves to the job 00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:13.890 itself, to really, really focus on what your job is, what it isn't, 00:57:13.890 --> 00:57:15.570 where it begins, where it ends. 00:57:15.907 --> 00:57:20.110 And so I know what complete work looks like and what good work looks like. 00:57:20.430 --> 00:57:24.045 It's based on your actual job itself, not because someone else tells you so. 00:57:24.481 --> 00:57:27.260 I think that when you are very clear about what your work is, 00:57:27.260 --> 00:57:30.020 what your parameters are, and where you have autonomy, where you have to, 00:57:30.020 --> 00:57:32.683 you know, stick to the script—. 00:57:33.705 --> 00:57:38.717 It gives you a sense of ownership, ownership for your work, and a sense of a 00:57:38.717 --> 00:57:41.787 little bit of self-leadership in what you're doing, right? 00:57:41.787 --> 00:57:44.457 And I think you can

get a lot of fulfillment from any job when you have that 00:57:44.457 --> 00:57:48.057 combination, whether you're, you know, working at a fast food restaurant to 00:57:48.057 --> 00:57:51.447 something even more prolific, CEO or whatever. 00:57:51.447 --> 00:57:55.597 It's just like if you have those parameters of what good looks like and what 00:57:55.597 --> 00:58:01.557 your job is and ownership, you can really learn to navigate your work and your 00:58:01.557 --> 00:58:04.897 life a lot easier, too, because now you know what the work looks like. 00:58:04.897 --> 00:58:08.087 You know how to navigate, you know, how to, like, live your life in the ways 00:58:08.087 --> 00:58:10.696 that they can live into the job itself, but also live the rest of your life well. 00:58:11.490 --> 00:58:14.047 Yeah. And work efficiently. That's my other thing, too. It's like you can work 00:58:14.047 --> 00:58:17.747 efficiently. You don't, you don't, everything you do, it goes towards the job 00:58:17.747 --> 00:58:19.368 and you know for a fact it works. 00:58:19.664 --> 00:58:22.410 So you can work efficiently and you're not overworking yourself, you know? 00:58:22.937 --> 00:58:29.157 I think it's just so beautiful and very helpful, really helpful parameters for people who feel lost. 00:58:29.157 --> 00:58:32.957 Some of the people feel lost at work. It's just clear as mud for many people. 00:58:32.957 --> 00:58:37.767 So let's look for clarity. And those are great questions to have answers to 00:58:37.767 --> 00:58:42.996 or seek answers to if you don't know the answers to those to start to try to find this out. 00:58:43.628 --> 00:58:46.897 Lynnae, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed our conversation. 00:58:47.291 --> 00:58:51.088 Thank you so much, Merry, for having me. I really enjoyed it as well. Take care. 00:58:51.863 --> 00:58:56.157 Lynnae, thank you for such a great conversation. The work that you were doing, 00:58:56.157 --> 00:58:57.957 I just think is so helpful. 00:58:57.957 --> 00:59:03.597 Those questions that we can ask to get answers to, to really reorient, 00:59:03.597 --> 00:59:07.845 as you said, and center ourself, what the heck are we doing? What is our work? 00:59:08.670 --> 00:59:12.582 And really focusing on that, because sometimes we just get so focused in the 00:59:12.582 --> 00:59:14.753 work dynamics and what's not working. 00:59:15.384 --> 00:59:19.052 So figuring out what is the work and what does it mean to do it well and all 00:59:19.052 --> 00:59:22.862 these wonderful questions. So I encourage you to go to Lynnae Brown's website 00:59:22.862 --> 00:59:25.601 and look at those questions and what else she has to offer. 00:59:26.124 --> 00:59:29.492 Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services 00:59:29.492 --> 00:59:33.763 and hosted by me, Merry Brown. You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com. 00:59:34.198 --> 00:59:37.652 Come back, we have new episodes every Tuesday. And if you would like it, 00:59:37.652 --> 00:59:40.302 subscribe wherever you are listening or watching this podcast. 00:59:40.302 --> 00:59:41.472 It's greatly appreciated. 00:59:42.093 --> 00:59:47.397 Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected. 00:59:47.577 --> 00:59:50.033 Let's deal with it. Until next time, take care.