บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Unmasking the Complexities of Leadership and Transformation, feat. Rachel Burr of Catamentum

leader. People talk about you may have skills and things that predispose you to be a good leader. You still have to learn to be a leader. So let's see some of the things that I see most typically. [00:06:00] One, which I think is so much fun, especially in the days of zoom or when people can see and record themselves, we judge ourselves by our intent, the intent, the effect and how we want to come across the results we want to gain. Rachel Burr: Other people judge us and evaluate us based on their experience of us. And what I will tell leaders is there is always going to be a gap. There just is. And so the idea is how do you become more aware of that gap? What does it look like? And when you think about the kind of leader you want to be versus what others experience is, how do we close that gap? Layci Nelson: Right. Rachel Burr: And one of the ways it's been so much fun is. Because we've been doing so many meetings on Zoom and things, we can record them. Mm hmm. And then what they'll do is they'll send me the recording. I'll spend some time going through it, queue up a few things, and then we'll watch it. It's great because the first time out of the gate is always a little painful. Layci Nelson: Oh. [00:07:00] It's brutal. Rachel Burr: It's brutal. It's brutal. And I like to say that I am direct and supportive. People confuse direct, which is another piece we'll talk about as a leader, the challenge, but people confuse direct with harsh. And Rachel Burr: I want to tell them, look, I am going to tell you the truth. I'm going to tell you my version of the truth because none of us are objective. Rachel Burr: And then I'll put it on the table and we can talk about it. I find, and I am not the only one that finds this, but as leaders go up the ladder, right? Or matrix or whatever structure you're in, people start to edit themselves. And the leader doesn't realize that's what's happening because they still see themselves as one of the people. Rachel Burr: Yep. They don't realize that you may feel that way, but the people around you don't do not do not. So how you show up in these meetings with your team, very important. So I remember doing this one call with this leader, big personality, really knew the business, does know the business. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:08:00] we watched a little bit of the video with his executive team and, and it happened to be he was interacting with this one individual specifically. Rachel Burr: And after I queued it up and turned it off and I'm like, okay, you tell me what you saw. He's like, I basically legend him with a two by four. I'm like, Yes, you did. And then when he fell on the ground, you hit him a like, you know, six more times just to make sure he'd stay there. And it was this early awakening. Rachel Burr: And again, we still tend to see ourselves in the way we expect to, but having more tangible proof of the experience outside of you. It was a great way to start chipping into that armor. We had so much fun and I even had some of his leaders come up to me later and say, Hey, can I keep paying you to keep working with him just in case he doesn't like, I mean, off the stage to sleep. Yeah. Rachel Burr: At one of the meetings, one of the people who worked for him tried to slip me a [00:09:00] hundred. Oh my gosh. Keep going. I mean, just I'll adjust. Right, right, right. I love that when you watch leaders. Who have such a strength and they are so good, but they are having a negative impact that they don't intend on their team. Layci Nelson: Yes. Rachel Burr: And you watch them shift that and start to bring that best self in a way that can be received the way they intend. That is so rewarding. Layci Nelson: Absolutely. Tell me more about your motivation. We were talking before we hit record and you said, the book took you about a year and a half to write, but 20 years to prepare for. Layci Nelson: Tell me a little bit about your evolution of, oh, this book needs to exist in the world. What took it from, I should maybe write a book to, I'm writing a book. Rachel Burr: You know, for a long time, well, maybe not my whole life, I've had this idea of writing a book. Um, Every time I tried to come up with well, what am I gonna write about? Rachel Burr: It never felt right. It didn't feel compelling It felt like a [00:10:00] task or a chore and I just struggled and then as I got into my professional life I started thinking okay. Well, I should write a business book or I should write a coaching book We're experts or at least we have significant knowledge in the field I could not get myself to do it. Rachel Burr: So I went to writing workshops and I did self exploration and I hired a writing coach and I hired a different coach. All of these things. And this actually shows up in terms of our own evolution and transformation, but something finally clicked where I realized I don't want to write these books. What I want to write is an experience. Rachel Burr: I want to write about my experience and I want it to be something where other people can have takeaways, they can have ideas for their own life. And I am not trying to tell people how to live at all. Right. It's more about putting myself out there in a humorous way. Humor is extremely important to me and I [00:11:00] have a very strong voice when it comes to humor and that I think was one of the steps also. Rachel Burr: I found a couple authors that had this very authentic, not formal voice at all and I thought, oh my gosh, I can bring that to a book. Yes. I originally thought about it more as a self help and then it really turned into a memoir with self help aspects to it and exercises at the end. And once I realized that I could write through me as me, it's just poured out of me. Rachel Burr: It was like this conduit that I wasn't even sure I was writing at the time. It was like something was writing through me. The way I was describing it to someone was, this book has been trying to

write itself through me for a very long time. And I finally stopped fighting it. Layci Nelson: Oh, I love it. What are some things that you want people to walk away with if they read? Layci Nelson: your book. Why should someone pick it up? What state do they need to be in to be like, yeah, this would [00:12:00] be helpful for me. Rachel Burr: This book is really about personal transformation, and it is about dispelling the myth of personal transformation that somehow on the outside we see this beautiful very curated social media, like, Oh, this is transformation. Rachel Burr: And someone just shows up one day and they have an epiphany and it's beautiful. And that's why the butterfly goo, I, I have always resonated with the butterfly as a symbol of transformation, not because it's beautiful, although it is, but because it's beauty actually distracts from the arduous work that is transformation. Rachel Burr: The goo part is the caterpillar. I'm going to say spins its cocoon. My brother who's an entomologist is very clear that butterflies come out of a chrysalis and moths come out of a cocoon. But I'm like, yeah, I'm sticking with the metaphor because this is what people know. So the caterpillar spins itself into this cocoon and it basically dissolves into this gelatinous goo.[00:13:00] Rachel Burr: The thing I love about it is that caterpillar is going to rebuild itself into a butterfly. It takes everything it needs into that cocoon that it needs to rebuild. There is nothing that that caterpillar does not already have inside of it that it needs to be a butterfly. We all have what we need. We go to our core and we can rebuild from that core. Rachel Burr: And again, it's not about turning ourselves into something we're not. It's about finding the best of who we are. Mm. And the idea that The butterfly is this amazing transformation. It's not the butterfly is the result of the transformation. The transformation is the step by step process. All the work that went in to that by that caterpillar through that process. Rachel Burr: And so what I want to do is I want to break it down so that people understand transformation. I want to make it more actionable. I want to make [00:14:00] it more achievable. And through my own vulnerability, humor, all of that, I want them to feel like. Well, if she can do it, certainly I can do it. Right, right. And, you know, people get to take this journey with me as much or as little as they want. Rachel Burr: If you want to go through it, I have takeaways at the ends of the chapters. There's going to be a playground area at the back with exercises if you want to play around. Again, not forcing transformation. But just giving you a space to play and experiment. If you want to do that, great. If you just want to read the book, I'm hoping you'll laugh. Rachel Burr: And if you want to take in that schadenfreude of just being really happy you're not me, then do that. It's one of those, you know, you choose your own

adventure. You get to take as much or as little from it as you want. It's up to you. Layci Nelson: I'm really resonating with hearing, how do we make it more actionable, right? Layci Nelson: Because people are going to say, well, that's great. I don't want to be in the goo. I'm in the goo. How do [00:15:00] I start? What do I do? I need a blueprint for these molecules. When you say making it more actionable. Rachel Burr: Yes. Layci Nelson: How do you do that? How do you make it actionable? Rachel Burr: That is part of the exercises at the end of the book. Rachel Burr: For example, one of the exercises is, There's a point in the book where I know I need to make a change. I know I want to say, I'm going to quit my job. I want to do something different. I want to go somewhere different. I have no idea what that is. Right. Rachel Burr: A lot of us start in those places where, you know, people say, Oh, I had this vision. Rachel Burr: I had this. And it's like, there's a lot of parts where I started. I'm like, I have no idea. All I know is I don't know what I want, but I know I don't want this. Yep. So helping people, I'll talk them through how I approach that process. For example, even starting off with, okay, I know I don't want to be here. Rachel Burr: For example, I didn't want to stay living in the place where I was living. So I started to think about, first of all, what are my criteria? What do I want? Right. Rachel Burr: I wanted to live someplace that had moderate [00:16:00] climate. I had lived in the Midwest my whole life. For my Midwestern friends and family, I love you, I loved growing up in the Midwest, and it's cold. Rachel Burr: It's so cold. So I was really thinking someplace a little bit more temperate. I had also grown up in areas that were flat. I was thinking someplace, mountains, ocean, something like that. And my last criterion was actually live within three hours of someone I know. I had never really just picked up and moved someplace where I didn't know anybody. Rachel Burr: I was completely starting over. And I thought if I was so homesick that at least I would have somebody out there. Yeah. Rachel Burr: So then what I help people think about is when you look at that criteria, because it's one of the problems we always have. We want everything we wanted to all work and it's not going to, it's just not. Rachel Burr: So first of all, how do you rank order your criteria? So most important to least and then going back again and redigesting and saying, okay, what's an absolute must have, what's a pretty important and what's the kind of cherry on top. [00:17:00] And then looking at that in the rank and if those don't line up and go back again and now you have a filter, you have a way to look at and evaluate. Rachel Burr: I mean, it could be just a spaghetti toss. If you're fine with that, then put up a map of wherever you think you want to live and throw a dart. Do that. It's your process. You get to do whatever you want. If you want something that's more focused and that to your point is more actionable, then do that. Then when you start to look and I say, okay, well, what about Denver? Rachel Burr: Well, mountains, great. This still cold, but the snow goes away pretty quickly, et cetera. And then versus California, North Carolina, New York. What I say is also that there's the science and there's the art or the gut. It is not meant to say one is better than the other. In fact, we need both. Well, people make decisions all the time that aren't based on any kind of fact, but what they want Layci Nelson: every day, Rachel Burr: every day. Rachel Burr: So what I say is doing this in this process helps you get down to the idea that maybe there are [00:18:00] two or three options at the end. You're like, well, all of these are good. All of these meet my criteria. That's when your gut steps in. It's like, okay, you know that any one of these could possibly be good for you. Rachel Burr: What does your gut say? Layci Nelson: Yes. Rachel Burr: You're setting your gut up to be successful because I firmly believe that, and I'm sure the neuroscientists out there can tell me this is wrong. But I believe that a lot of times our gut or the intuition is our brain working in the background, ticking and tying things in a way that at this moment just don't have access to our consciousness or maybe even our verbal centers, but it's still really important. Rachel Burr: Emotions are important. They are data. Layci Nelson: Yes. Rachel Burr: They are telling us something. Layci Nelson: Yep. Rachel Burr: And I, I say in the book, it's not necessarily that your emotions are right, but it's worth a conversation. Layci Nelson: Yes. We definitely are in alignment on helping people learn to even be able to hear their gut, listen, tune in to themselves. Yep. Layci Nelson: There can [00:19:00] oftentimes be a strong mistrust of their intuition or a complete disconnect from it. Oh yeah. Absolutely. I don't even know how to tap it. Rachel Burr: Yes. I'm going to call my dad out. He probably won't like this, but when he listens to it, he'll know I'm right. He hates the word intuition. I really tried to dig into it until why, and my dad is a very practical kind of black and white thinker. Rachel Burr: He just thinks that idea that, you know, that's just nonsense. Layci Nelson: Yeah. Rachel Burr: I explained to him exactly what I just explained to you. I said, uh, intuition isn't magic. It's not something that's out there, kind of undecipherable or whatever. It is in you. It's just the fact that we have spent so much time trying to ignore that. Rachel Burr: I think, especially as we like to think of ourselves as these very rational beings that make decisions based on fact, it's not true. I mean, the research has shown that most of our decisions are actually based on emotion and then we use facts to justify those decisions. Layci Nelson: Study the

science, look into marketing for 10 [00:20:00] minutes and read how they play our emotions all the time. Layci Nelson: And if you go from that angle. Yeah, we are not rational beings at all. Rachel Burr: There's a little bit of it in there, but yeah, you know, this process that I was talking about, for example, and this is just one exercise, it's a good way to give room to also that analytical part, the rational part of your brain, and then give room to that emotional intuition so that you're really helping them bring the respective strengths. Rachel Burr: Yes. To this decision. Layci Nelson: Yes. Oh my goodness, I could talk to you for a month, I think. However. In the interest of giving the people what they come for, we are opening the door, inviting you into the confessional. What is your confession you came to make today about your own leadership journey? Rachel Burr: Oh, you know, it was a little hard to pick. Rachel Burr: So I have so many examples. I will just start off, especially for your audience, saying, you know what, [00:21:00] if you are making mistakes, it's beautiful because that means you're outside your comfort zone. We do not make mistakes inside our comfort zone. Layci Nelson: First of all, I love that. Rachel Burr: Bravo for messing up. Layci Nelson: Yep. Rachel Burr: The example I came up with, I was working for a global company and I was working with the executive team around engagement. Rachel Burr: Companies have these engagement surveys. I won't name names for different organizations that provide them. Lots of them out there. Yep. Rachel Burr: What happens a lot of times is you get these very high level results. And a lot of leaders going back to leaders, a lot of times have trouble with the people aspects of leadership. Rachel Burr: It's very hard to be able to translate this down into things that are actionable for their teams. That was my first mistake was not really understanding how challenging that can be because. When I look at it from my perspective, I'm like, Oh, well, yeah, this is intuitive. Layci Nelson: Or it's obvious. It's obvious. It's jumping off the page. Rachel Burr: Because we underestimate how [00:22:00] much other people know compared to what we know. And it's true. I had a friend who took me through an exercise that was an IT problem that he was helping me with. And I was really struggling because he had such a depth of knowledge, expertise, and I was really struggling. And I had this, aha, I was like, Oh, Rachel Burr: this is how people feel when I talk about leadership and they don't have that. Rachel Burr: That was my first mistake. Assuming that if I provided them this information, I provided them this actionable piece that they would be able to take it and run with it. Because they said it was important. And I have no doubt that that was absolutely true. They knew it was important. So I proposed an approach and I got what I thought was buy in. Rachel Burr: But what it was, was an awareness that this was a problem, and yes, go off, do, and that's great. I didn't really dig in to understand, okay, what does this look like in your organization? What problems is this causing? What would success look like for you? What is it that you want it to be? Layci Nelson: Yes. Rachel Burr: I didn't do that. Rachel Burr: Instead, I got so excited. One of the things I am [00:23:00] good at is getting other people excited. If I have a passion for it, I get other people excited. I had this idea that we would do focus groups. We would really dig in to, okay, here's what's happening. What's underneath that and doing those interviews. And I love this kind of thing. Rachel Burr: I love the Rachel Burr (2): social Rachel Burr: science. interviews, all of this. And I was the head of leadership and OD. So I engaged the HR business partners because I needed more than me to go out and do this. And I wanted to make sure also that they were in line and they were partnering because they would be key with the leadership. Rachel Burr: So I got them really excited. And then they started talking about, well, yeah, but you can't just do them in the U S. We need to do them in Europe and we need to do them in India. We need to do them in South America. These 10 focus groups ended up, I think it was close to 60, like six zero focus groups that we ended up doing across 13 countries, multiple languages that got translated in. Rachel Burr: So exciting. I worked with another person and [00:24:00] basically we took the themes from all of this. And distilled it down into 10 things, 10 key things that these all had in common. And then there were always going to be nuances in different locations, which is great. So excited. I took this back, presented it to the leadership team and they're like, yeah, that's great. Rachel Burr: And nothing, nothing. I was so upset at the time. And obviously when we start, you're really mad at other people. But really it was me. I didn't take the time up front to really dive in to understand and I didn't do a good job influencing along the way to pull them in. I know they knew this was a problem. Rachel Burr: I knew that in action, day in and day out, these things were playing out and they may not have realized why or what, but they knew something was going on, but I did not tie these. [00:25:00] together. I did not help them see that this is connected to what you're doing. And so the motivation wasn't there. The passion wasn't there because they didn't see the connection. Rachel Burr: And even then they didn't know what to do about it. These were way down in terms of close to actionable steps and they still, well, what do we do? And I'm like, it was such a huge missed opportunity. And you have all these people then that had given all of this input and you know, there's almost nothing worse. Rachel Burr: For a company to do, it's better to not do anything than to ask for it and then not do anything.

Yes. So I have learned, and I actually, as a coach, I'm a good listener. I spend most of my time listening. In this situation, I didn't translate that skill. I didn't do that. So as a leader, what I have taken away is first and foremost, listen. Rachel Burr: You observe the problem, dig in from the perspective of [00:26:00] the folks who can make a difference, who will drive the change, who have to at least prioritize the change. There may be other people in their team driving it, but you need to really understand it and you need to explicitly connect the dots. Layci Nelson: Yes. Rachel Burr: We assume that because, and everybody says, Oh, you know, the whole thing about assume. Rachel Burr: Our brains work on assumptions. That's how our brains work. We are set up to go from actual data to making assumptions and inferences and making decisions based on that. This is very old wiring. And that made a lot of sense, right? When something jumped out of a bush, tiger, whatever, as they say. And you needed to run, I need to fight, I need to freeze. Rachel Burr: Our brains haven't changed, but our environments are so much more nuanced that I was going back to the assumptions. I was making all sorts of assumptions that really undermined the success and especially the passion and excitement that people had that they felt like, yes, this is something we can [00:27:00] do, we can be part of to make a difference. Rachel Burr: And it just didn't. Layci Nelson: It fizzled. Rachel Burr: It fizzled. Layci Nelson: Oh, my gosh. What a painful and valuable lesson for you. Oh, thank you for sharing that. And an ego hit too, right? Rachel Burr: Oh, huge ego hit. Yeah. You realize again that you want to be this force of change. You want to have this impact and you know you have things to bring to this situation. Rachel Burr: But going back to what we even were saying earlier, I was judging myself by my intent. And I assumed other people saw that, and it's not like they didn't want to or wouldn't have wanted to, I didn't give them the chance. Layci Nelson: Yes. Ugh! What am I assuming to be true is such an important question to learn to ask ourselves! Layci Nelson: Yes! Ugh! And then check it! Rachel Burr: Yes. And so for all of my colleagues, compatriots, all of the leaders that I worked with out there, if you're listening to this, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Mea culpa. I am so [00:28:00] sorry. I would do this drastically different now. And thank you for being patient with me during my learning experience, even if not frustrated. Rachel Burr: And to your point, with a morale hit, I really appreciate that all of you stuck with me, Riccardo. Layci Nelson: Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. I was nodding along. Definitely could relate to the proverbial putting the cart before the horse and making assumptions and operating without checking them. Rachel Burr (2): Absolutely. Layci Nelson: Or being blind to the assumptions we're going in with. Rachel Burr (2): Absolutely. Layci Nelson: Yeah. Rachel, what an incredible conversation this has been. I am definitely, and I will credit you, but I am using that goo analogy because, man, is it so valuable. I want to get my hands on your book in all sincerity. So tell myself, tell our listeners, how do we order your book? Where do we find Rachel Burr: you? Rachel Burr: Well, right now the pre orders are up for the ebook. So it is. Butterflygoobook. [00:29:00] net. It's a great landing page. I've had some wonderful teams working with me on helping me with all this. Layci Nelson: Excellent. Rachel Burr: That's where you go for the book. If you just want to find me in general, you can find me on LinkedIn. It's Rachel Amber, B U R R. Rachel Burr: And my website for my regular executive coaching is Katamentum. So it's C A T A M E N T U M. And I'm sure you'll have that in the notes. Layci Nelson: We will, we will drop all of your links in the show notes and thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for this conversation. It was enlightening and I'm pretty sure our listeners will pick up. Layci Nelson: There was a lot of synchronicity in our energy going back and forth on this great, great topic. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, your insight, your lessons learned and your vulnerability with us today. Rachel Burr: Oh, thank you so, so much for having me. I had a wonderful time. Layci Nelson: Ah, awesome. Well, listeners, you know the drill. Layci Nelson: Until next time, go manage like a leader. Thanks for listening to Confessions of a Terrible [00:30:00] Leader. If you're feeling brave and have your own terrible leader story that you'd like to share, head over to TranscendLeadershipCollective. com slash podcast to fill out a guest application. We'd love to hear from you. Confessions of a Terrible Leader is hosted by Layci Nelson and produced and edited by Fixation Point Productions. Music is by Leaf Olson and Mary Scott from the band. The number of months Confessions of a Terrible Leader is a free leadership resource offered by Transcend Leadership Collective. If you are ready to refuse the limits of average leadership and join the leadership revolution, visit transcend leadership collective.com to check out our offerings for engaging workshops, strategic planning, and more. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave us a review, and until next time, go manage like a leader.