บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Why Most Training Doesn't Work (And What Great Learners Do Instead) with Michael Wolfe, Director of Learning & Development, SEFA

00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:47.360 And so I've spent my career, which I was since we last chatted, I'm like, gosh, I've been doing this a while here. 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:57.040 I'm just, I'm not going to admit how long it's been, but in some way, shape, or form, helping people learn better, delivering designing training in a whole host of industries. 00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:58.959 I've worked internally at organizations. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:04.000 I worked as a consultant outside, helping an organization build a course or build training. 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:22.319 Started in online training, what used, you know, the very beginnings of e-learning, which has become fairly popular these days, but since branched out into all things related to performance improvement, whether it's a course, whether it's a live event, um, all things related to training, spanning uh a crazy range of industries. 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:36.560 Everything from you know, Food ServiceNow back to pharmaceuticals, back to uh even was involved in a project related to you know teaching kids about fire safety. 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.319 Um and I still moonlight actually as a as a math tutor. 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:42.639 So I still connect one-on-one with high schoolers. 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:48.959 So every when you say, What was I doing before CIFA and before food service, I was doing learning. 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.720 That's what I've done my whole career. 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:52.800 What a great career. 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.920 And and you must be smart if you're a math tutor. 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.839 Well, I'd I'd the the the subject matter, okay. 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:04.959 Yeah, some of it is things that that most parents don't remember anymore and they can't help their kids with. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:09.360 Um, one of my colleagues at CIFA actually is notoriously not great at math. 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.240 Um, this topic comes up on a semi-regular basis. 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:17.680 Um, and just the other, just just within the past week, um, I sent her a link. 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:27.920 Uh, it's it's some YouTube family that does does parodies of songs, and they took the old 80s staple Africa and turned it into algebra. 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:29.680 If you haven't heard it, Google it. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:36.160 Funny as heck for many of the folks out there who cannot relate to when their kids take have to take math. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:40.720 Um, so I don't I don't know if I'd be, I don't know if that makes me smart or not if I know math. 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:47.360 It just means I have some whole bunch of neurons that are devoted to remembering stuff that we really don't need that much anymore in real life. 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:49.439 Well, everyone has their gifts. 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.800 So I appreciate you calling that a gift. 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:53.439 Thank you. 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:58.560 So um what attracted

you to the food service industry? 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:06.240 You know, it was it was the it was the polar opposite of what I of what I was doing before. 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.759 My the most recent industry that I operated in. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:14.480 Um, and it it takes a second because I say it and people are like, what? 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:18.959 Um so I supported actuarial scientists. 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:21.439 And you're like, what's that? 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:23.680 Like, what's actuarial science? 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:28.959 Um it's it is uh it is math related, so it kind of resonated with me. 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.040 Um, but it's math on steroids. 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.920 So there's it's it's very, very high-end statistics. 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:43.439 What actuaries do, I like to think of it as they they put together models of how the world works, um primarily to look at risk. 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:55.519 So, for example, actuaries are the folks who help insurance companies decide how much to charge for a life insurance premium based on when you have this set of conditions, what is your life expectancy? 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:55.839 Right. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.839 So that's that's at the core of what actuaries do, but there's so much more than that. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.360 Um, but they do like high-end statistical analysis. 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:11.920 Very ivory, very ivory tower, heavy academic, um, very rigorous path to becoming credentialed as an actuary. 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.240 So you're you are designated as someone who can officially comment on these kinds of things. 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:23.360 And then you then you juxtapose that with our food service, which is as concrete as it gets, right? 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:30.480 In our it, we we provide service, we sell widgets, it's equipment that people use to cook food. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.399 And that's what we do. 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:39.679 Um, so I think there was there's a practicality to it, it's it's well grounded, it's it's just real. 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:41.600 You can touch it, you can feel it. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:51.919 And there's that aspect of it I found really interesting in contrast to this very kind of esoteric stuff that I was dealing with before food service. 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.879 I mean, you're basically on two different planets. 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:56.240 You can take a new planet. 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:00.240 It it is, it is a it is a whole other world. 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:03.360 Um, and it's it's a lot of fun. 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:05.679 There's a there's a lot about it that I like. 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:14.639 And so, but that's probably what initially attracted to me to uh to the industry was was just how how different it was from the world that I was operating in at the time. 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.720 So, what surprised you the most coming into this industry? 00:09:19.200

--> 00:09:20.559 Surprised me the most. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:24.320 Well, I I heard coming in. 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:29.519 Um, firstly, people talk it within within CIFA, people talk about the CIFA family. 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.320 Um, and I thought that that was just a phrase. 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:37.360 And I also heard this rumor that um the industry tends to suck people in. 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:40.559 Like once you're in, it's like the Hotel California situation. 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:43.679 Like you can check on anytime you're like, you're, but you're never leaving. 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.399 Um and so I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:48.000 Um, no, really. 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:53.759 Um at our at our CIFA events, it is like getting together with old friends. 00:09:54.000 --> 00:10:00.320 And it's, I think, I don't know if it's I don't want to say that I was coming in not expecting that, but just people talked about it. 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:04.480 And until you experience it, I think it is just kind of words on the page. 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:12.799 Um, it really, I don't know if it's if it's that it's a service-oriented industry, but there's just a lot of really, really nice people in it. 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:23.360 Um, I know that I know that within CIFA in particular, but I don't think that's, I don't think it's it's unique to CIFA as a as a buying group, our our dealers and the manufacturers that we partner with. 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.840 Just across the industry, it's a lot of good people doing good for the right reasons. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:29.919 And so it's been, it's been a lot of fun. 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:39.840 I don't want to make it sound like I was thinking that it wasn't gonna be that, but just given how talked up it was, um, I think I was surprised at how real those words actually turned out to be. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.080 Yeah, I think we should do a PSA, you know, out there. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.440 Hey, if you're gonna get in, be ready to be a lifer. 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:58.559 Yeah, you are it it I can I can see uh in a very short period of time why it is a place that people come and it's a and it's a destination industry for those folks. 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:04.000 They don't leave so what has been like being an outsider? 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.519 Um, has that been an advantage for you coming in? 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:14.000 I've as a as a learning professional, I've I've made a career about being an outsider. 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.360 I don't think I'd have to think back pretty hard. 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.480 I don't think I've ever touched the same industry twice. 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:25.440 So um I've been with an industry for some period of time and then moved and then moved. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:32.799 So I've I've made a career out of coming into an industry and seeing what it has to offer. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:37.679 The the good news for me, if this wasn't the case, I I would have failed a long, long time ago. 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.960 Um learning is learning across the board. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:42.480 People are people in general. 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:50.799 Yes, they vary from what they do and how they do it, but um learning tends to be learning tends to behave the same way from industry to industry. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.440 So I can take what I've done in a previous industry and apply it. 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:58.720 So I think it does, it does give me an advantage. 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.440 I do get to play the newbie card for at least some period of time. 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.679 You're telling me I can still play it, which is awesome. 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:05.200 Um, so I'm gonna keep doing it. 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:11.759 And if anybody asks, no, you're you've been in here over four years, you're no longer a newbie, I'm like, well, Nancy said I'm still a newbie, relatively speaking. 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.759 So I'm gonna keep doing it. 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:21.360 Um I'm allowed to, I think it gives me some leeway in asking kind of naive, ignorant questions. 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:30.879 Um, and by asking those, I'm I'm able to hopefully figure things out that I can use to then make the training and the learning that that I do better. 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:45.200 Just being a novice, it gives me a perspective that I feel like maybe resonates with a lot of the audience who I'm trying to train on things or build training for in comparison to a lot of the industry are because of the lifers, right? 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:59.200 There's a lot of experienced folks, but those experienced folks are different from in general the audience that I'm trying to reach, which is someone who's an up-and-comer learning a lot about the industry, not that we don't train the experts too, but it tends to be the more new folks who we, who we target. 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:07.039 And those folks can be very different than uh than the than the majority of the industry that tends to have a lot more experience than they do. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:17.440 Yeah, and one thing we talked about um is that many people that are responsible for training right now in our industry um have decades of experience. 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:19.039 Well, that tends to be the case, right? 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:26.159 I mean, it tends to the that tends to be true because the people and in our industry, right, there's there's some there's turnover happening, right? 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.240 There's there are folks who are retiring, aging out, whatever you like to call it. 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:38.320 Hopefully I just didn't get censored for something, but it you have those folks, they tend to be your most natural choice for the folks. 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.759 Well, they are the people who need to be onboarding the new people, right? 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:45.120 They

are the, they are the mentorship, they are bringing those people forward. 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:52.399 And yet, the more experienced you get, it becomes harder and harder to remember what it was like to be a new, to be new to the industry. 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:57.440 And so it becomes harder and harder to actually, in many cases, be an effective trainer. 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.360 And so it's ironic, right? 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:10.480 The people who know the most are sometimes the ones who are challenged the most to continue to be a good trainer and facilitator of learning, given how much they know. 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:14.320 It's it's it is a little bit, it's a little bit weird. 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:17.840 You'd want those people to be in the best position to train, and sometimes they aren't. 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:28.399 Yeah, I definitely experience that that myself, you know, coming into the industry and seeing so many new newbies coming in and training them. 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:48.960 And it is it is challenging when you've been in this industry for 20 years and you just throw out all these words, you know, of different, you know, just the product knowledge and also, you know, the sale, you know, the sales side and the end user side, buying groups, like there's so much to learn. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:15:03.600 And it is hard to a break it down and then, you know, remember that they don't know, you know, all the the terms that you know are unique to the food service industry. 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.840 It's as as an expert, you it's a it's a natural thing. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:22.960 I feel like experts do it because they want the newer folks to benefit from their expertise and they want the newer folks to be able to to I don't know, to learn it faster, to get better faster. 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:42.159 So the the desire is to convey all that they know to the to these new folks because the in the hopes that whatever process it was that the experts went through to become an expert, which took them 20 years, by the way, um, they want to take those 20 years and compress them, compress them down into like a three-day boot camp. 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:45.120 Like that's just not gonna, that's just not gonna happen. 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:49.840 Experts didn't get to where they are in some kind of compressed period. 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.720 They became experts over a period of time. 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:59.840 So when you're thinking about developing someone who's newer, remember it's gonna take it's gonna take them a while too. 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:01.360 There's no magic bullet. 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:06.399 So as a trainer, it's this mentality of wait, I gotta remember, I can't boil the ocean. 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.000 They're not gonna learn it all at once. 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:13.120 There, the the school, we all went to the school of hard knocks in terms of learning from our mistakes. 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:15.519 That's how the newer folks are gonna do it too. 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:27.440 And so as educators, as people who create learning for our, for the for the next generation, let's just remember it's it there's sometimes there just isn't any easier way. 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:28.480 And that's okay. 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:32.639 So we just want to facilitate that process as opposed to trying to short circuit it. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:43.360 And by doing that, we overwhelm the new person with all of our with all of our knowledge and experience that they're it's gonna take them, it's gonna take them 20 years too to become the expert of 20 years. 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:44.720 There's no way around it. 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.279 Yeah, I'm I am super blessed. 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:58.080 I mean, in my career, because I did get ongoing product training, um, as, you know, because there's hundreds of thousands of products that, you know, you can sell. 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:10.000 And then, but also um, I think it is hard because I think some people bring people in for a week, you know, and do training, and then they just and then they're go. 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:19.039 And when when that happened to me in my first job, um, I had three weeks of training, and they said, You're gonna remember 30% of this. 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.599 And so where the hell, where the hell did they come up with that number? 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:29.599 Like, why'd they like well, which, which begs the question, you were there for that's 15 days, right? 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.920 So you're gonna remember a couple days worth of it? 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.480 Like you're gonna remember what were you doing the rest of the time? 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.400 And why were they and why were you doing it? 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.319 Like, I'm sorry, I interrupted your story. 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.759 30, you're gonna remember 30%. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:49.119 I just like who came up with that number and what was the other 70% involved, and what what were you doing with all of that time? 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:50.720 Just begs the question. 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:58.400 Yeah, and and that's why it does need to be thought out, you know, when you're bringing somebody in. 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:05.359 So you mentioned that training um is is kind of like a hidden stepchild in organizations. 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:06.799 So what did you mean by that? 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:15.920 I think actually, I think you had you said that to me, that that sometimes training gets the gets the bad rap, or that training, or that training gets forgotten, right? 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.720 Even even look at the experience you just conveyed, right? 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.960 The expectation somehow we're gonna train this person for three weeks. 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.759 They're only gonna remember 30% of it for whatever reason. 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.000 And then

we're gonna send them off into the wild. 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:32.960 And they're I I don't know what they're prepared to do or not do. 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.480 Um I in my experience, it's sometimes it's even the opposite. 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:51.039 But part of it is that there's this expectation that folks are going to somehow magically learn to do their job without thinking about how it is that they're that they're learning, right? 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.039 Experts became experts, after all. 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:58.880 Um, and that generation of experts tended, I I think a lot tended to do a lot on their own, right? 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:02.000 So they they were thrown out there and they and they figured it out. 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.160 It's it's not a bad way to do it. 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:13.839 It's just it's just a little can be a little bit haphazard and you don't always know what you're gonna get, and leaving people to their own devices can be a little bit risky. 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:22.319 Um but then when push comes to shove, you have these these people who are say in in sales who are doing really well. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.119 And so you want them to keep selling more, right? 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:29.279 That's that's it's the bottom line that ultimately is important to the business. 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:42.480 And so then when the time comes to decide how should people be spending their time, the answer is selling, not learning how to sell, or it's doing their job, not learning how to do their job. 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:55.200 So I when when times are tight or when time is limited, for some reason, but it's pretty obvious, training tends to be one of the first things that we short that we shortcut. 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:01.119 Like, well, we need them doing more that impacts the business, um, at least impacts the business directly. 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:08.400 And so um training, amongst other things that feel like, well, we can put that aside for a while. 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.559 We did it, we we somehow survived without it, or or so we think. 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.880 So let's not do that. 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:22.319 And so that's the first thing that we think of when what can we get away with when we need to, when we when we need to figure out how to streamline something. 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.640 For some reason, training gets the short shift. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:32.559 Before we get back to the episode, if you're looking for new ideas or products for your next project, check out the W3 shop. 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.680 Think of it as your online shopping experience for everything but the food. 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:44.480 Browse thousands of products from the manufacturers we represent at W3Salesonline.com. 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.240 Now, back to the show. 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.759 Yeah, and I think that there's also so many shortcuts. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.200 I

mean, where they don't have to learn what they're doing and the meaning behind it. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.440 For example, like auto quotes. 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:03.039 People would say, Hey Nancy, train, train, train this rep on auto quotes. 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:10.400 And I I said, Well, do they even understand like the pricing model and how it works? 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.200 And they're like, no, no, no, it's fine. 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.759 Just put them on auto quotes and train them. 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:22.880 And so get them, get them from point A to point B, where point B is making money for the business. 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:31.359 Get them there as fast as you can, um, all other things aside, just just just get them there, get them to a point where they can use the tool. 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.079 And that feels like such a weird like, what does that even mean? 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:34.960 Like, what does it mean? 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:36.559 Like, teach them how to use auto quotes. 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.400 Well, what what do you mean by that? 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:43.680 And and what does it that's that's where the where the problem begins. 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:45.759 Someone says they they need to be able to use auto quotes. 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:51.519 Well, can we break that down a little bit in terms of well, what does expert performance in auto quotes look like? 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.880 What does someone who's been using auto quotes for a week, what does that look like? 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.839 And how do they how do they get from that to some improved ability to use auto quotes? 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.119 If we actually had a conversation about that, then even if we don't like build them training, listen, I'm a learning guy. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.000 It doesn't mean that everything that everything needs to be trained. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:14.319 There's a lot of stuff you can learn on the job and figure it out along the way. 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:30.400 So, but at least we could come up with some activities they could be doing in auto quotes where they could then, in some kind of systematic way, gain that experience in auto quotes so that they advance from being a one-week user of auto quotes to a one decade user of auto quotes. 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:41.440 And they've built up this knowledge in some in some way where we're confident that they actually now can do, they can do auto quotes better than they could before, whatever that means. 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:56.720 I even take it back even a step for, I mean, beh well, before, and really just sit down and explain discount structure and you know how people get their discounts and and you know, you get into buying groups. 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:01.680 So there's a there's lots of different facets like to the reasoning behind it. 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:12.559 And if you just get in there and click, click, click, I mean, without understanding what you're doing, I think that when you first started the industry, I I think it would be confusing. 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:20.400 It it works, it actually listen, you don't need to understand physics to be able to drive a car. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.559 We we we I understand when you hit the brake, things happen. 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.200 And it's there's some complicated reasoning as to how that stops the car. 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:36.880 We all have functioned perfectly fine in our worlds without understanding the deep science behind how all of that works. 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:49.839 So I'm sure that there's stuff in auto quotes that listen, you don't need some complicated theory about how the market, how the food service market works to be able to function in auto quotes. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.640 Um, so there's absolutely a benefit. 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.480 There's there's the practical side of it. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:58.400 And then there are some things that that it works until it doesn't. 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:02.400 So you're actually clicking along because you know where to click and how to click. 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:10.960 But then something either goes wrong, or there's something a little different, or there's an exception, or there's something you want to get it to do that it doesn't quite do the way you want it to. 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:17.759 Now, all of a sudden, now you need a little bit deeper understanding of how things work in order to get it to behave that the way the way you want it to. 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:22.880 So listen, I'll I'll be the first to stand up, even though I'm a learning professional. 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:25.119 Training is not always the answer. 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.279 Deep philosophical conceptual understanding is not always the answer. 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:30.799 You don't always need it. 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.640 You just sometimes do. 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:36.319 And usually the beginners don't need all that in-depth knowledge. 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.400 They need bits and pieces of it to function. 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.720 This goes right back to the expert saying, well, I've built up all this knowledge over 20 years. 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:43.839 I know what I'm gonna do. 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.160 I'm going to lay it all out for a beginner. 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.079 Oh Lord, please don't do that, right? 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:51.119 You're gonna over you gained it over 20 years. 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:55.599 Why do you think that the new person can gain it faster than you did? 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:59.200 Back off, let them learn it kind of naturally, step by step. 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.519 They'll build it up over time, and that'll that'll be a better experience for them. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:04.799 It'll be more rewarding for them. 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.880 They'll feel like they're actually progressing and

and gaining ground. 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:15.440 So it's yeah, a little, a little bit of theory can go a long way, but it's not always, it's not always about that. 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.279 And there isn't always a reason to lay it out like from the ground up. 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:20.880 Let them it it's a tool. 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:29.519 Yeah, you click in it, learn to click, and we'll build up some of the more complicated stuff as you actually understand what the tool does and how the industry works. 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:30.240 Right. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:35.759 So maybe just something a little more basic like list price, net price, discount. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.079 Something that they have ex, you know, something that they have. 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:43.039 Listen, we've all we've all eaten at restaurants. 00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:47.759 That doesn't make us experts in the food service industry, but we all have touched it in some way, shape, or form. 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.000 So start with something they've seen and something that they can relate to. 00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:01.759 And then maybe that'll help them kind of kind of hook on to what exactly AQ is trying to do and then how to do stuff in AQ to actually function in their job. 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:03.920 No, this is great advice. 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.920 And I'm glad we kind of got to go through an auto quotes exercise on training. 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:08.400 Sorry. 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:14.400 No, no, it's yeah, but hey, as I said, the only way to we we as an industry talk about auto quotes. 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.200 So if we want to talk about learning, let's talk about learning auto quotes. 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.039 Let's talk about learning something concrete. 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:29.839 Um, and then that'll hopefully hopefully hopefully make it a little bit more relatable than learning some, you know, just learning in general or training in general, learning in the abstract or or trying to teach actuaries high-end statistics. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.400 That's not going to resonate with this group, that's for sure. 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:35.200 So let's split the conversation. 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:41.759 So in instead of us talking about training and the trainer, what makes somebody a great learner? 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.000 Well, that's interesting. 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:45.039 Well, right. 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.240 So let's let's continue along the AQ journey, right? 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:56.079 So we were talking about what can what are some things that the that the coach can do to guide somebody to become a better user of AQ. 00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:15.759 No matter what, how do I say, no matter what the trainer or the coach or the facilitator, the mentor, whatever they do, in the end, it comes down to what the user, what their person, their their mend, if they're the mentor, I guess the mentee, whatever their person is absorbing from that and what they're taking away from it. 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:16.160 Right. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:21.440 There's I, I, no matter what we do as a trainer, we can't learn it for the learner. 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:23.359 It's ultimately on them. 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:28.559 So what can they do no matter what they're being hit with, right? 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:32.640 We're we live in a world that is full of information, full of learning opportunities. 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.279 How do how do good learners do it? 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.160 Um that's a really good question. 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:53.119 I there's one thing that I think good learners do that separates them, which is that they're always thinking about uh what they're hearing, what they're seeing, what they're doing, and uh how they can apply it in the future, right? 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:59.759 So they hear something, they don't take it for granted, like it's a piece of information, like, okay, that's all well and good, but how does this help me do my job? 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:02.720 Like, how do how does that, where does that fit into my world? 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.319 Like when would I use that? 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:11.119 And by doing that, they're actually they're going through a process that is helping them remember it for the future. 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:19.599 How many times have, I don't know if you've said it, Nancy, or or you hear other people say it, you'll tell somebody how to do something and they'll say, that makes sense. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:24.000 And to me, that is a death knell. 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:25.279 Like that makes sense. 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:26.400 Well, of course it makes sense. 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.359 I'm the expert and I explained it in a way that should make sense. 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:30.640 Of course it makes sense. 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:32.160 I don't care if it makes sense. 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:39.839 So a week from now, when I'm not sitting here, are you going to be able to actually do it without me guiding you? 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.200 That's the question. 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:50.160 And a good learner has taken what you said and they're trying to rehearse it, they're trying to practice it, they'll take it and they'll try steps on their own, they'll come back and ask you questions. 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.880 It doesn't it always, well, of course it makes sense. 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.400 It always feels like it makes sense. 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:56.000 And then you go try to do it on your own. 00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.079 You're like, wait a second, what did they say? 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.480 How did they, what do I do on this screen? 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:01.599 How do they do that? 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:05.599 I don't know if we've, I don't know if the if you or our listeners have gone through that experience. 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.079 I do. 00:29:06.240 -->

00:29:09.599 Like if somebody tells me how to do it, I'm like, yep, yep, got it, got it. 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:13.680 And then a day later, I'm like, uh-oh, I don't got it. 00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:16.720 Like I it it seemed like it made sense. 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.119 And that's kind of a natural reaction. 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.400 Like, yeah, it all it all makes sense when the experts said it. 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:23.599 Um, fantastic. 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:25.200 That doesn't do us any good though. 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:39.039 So the good learners, I think, take it one step further and they're always trying to sort of apply it and think about what it means to them to make it personal, no matter what the trainer was doing. 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:51.279 So, you know, good trainer, bad trainer, some a trainer who's just who's dumping it onto them, good learners will they'll take more notes, they'll they'll make sense of it, and they'll do that in with with intent, right? 00:29:51.359 --> 00:30:00.000 They'll they'll practice with intent, they'll think about it with intent so that they can then use that knowledge later, independently from whatever it was that the trainer was doing. 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:08.319 Yeah, I mean, it's just like watching a YouTube video on how to do something, and then you try to do it even for me a minute later, I'm like, what? 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:08.799 What? 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:22.240 I mean, it makes sense when I'm watching it, but when I try to do it and um yeah, yeah, it's it's it it's it's unfortunate because it it's not like you're it did make sense. 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:23.839 It's not like you're lying to yourself. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:24.880 Like, did it make sense? 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:26.720 Yep, made perfect sense. 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.599 That doesn't mean you can actually then go do it yourself. 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:31.839 It just means it looks like it made sense. 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:43.200 And it really is a natural reaction to say, yep, makes sense, and then only to discover sometimes even minutes later, um, that made less sense than I thought it, that it felt like it did. 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.880 It's just this, it's this natural, it yeah, it's got this kind of coherence to it. 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:47.839 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:49.519 I could do, no, you can't. 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:50.720 Turns out you can't. 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:59.200 Um, and so even just recognizing that, like things that sound like they make sense, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm gonna remember them later or that I can do them later. 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.599 So, what do I do to actually help myself? 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:08.960 Even just recognizing that's a step forward, like, okay, just because it sounded good doesn't mean I'm gonna be able to actually apply it later. 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:12.880 Let me actually think a little bit harder about this so

that I can apply it later. 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:14.480 Yeah, active listening. 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:24.400 And I think it's um, I think this is really good for people here that this is a shared responsibility between trainer and trainee. 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:26.480 So um there's no way around it. 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:27.440 There's no way around it. 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:28.079 Right. 00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:28.880 I love that. 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:33.200 And just being able to, you know, for the learner to say, okay, stop. 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:36.880 So in my situation, you know, this happened to me. 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.400 So this is what I would do. 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:55.440 And for them to start thinking in terms of that, is the would that be the yeah, like it's it's something it you're you're whether it's AQ or you have a you have a product trainer who's pro who's listing out some features and benefits of a particular of a particular product. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.039 Okay, how do those features and benefits help my end user? 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.480 How I how would I as a dealer bring that up in a conversation? 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:08.960 What what targets do I have right now where that feature would solve their problem? 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.960 And now you're starting, now you're actually starting to build up aha. 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:25.039 Note, next time I talk to this, this particular end user or this particular target, make sure I ask them this or make sure I bring this up, or make sure I listen for this because I have something that I think could help. 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.680 Heck, don't depend on your memory. 00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:37.359 Uh whatever your conversation file is, and the next time you have a the thing you're gonna look at, the next time you have a conversation with that target, it you put it there so you'll so you remember it. 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.880 So you remember to bring it up because we've got a thousand things going on. 00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:42.799 You think you're gonna remember it, and then you don't. 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.519 Put it somewhere where you where it can remind yourself. 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.279 Yeah, you said active listening. 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:59.920 It's it's it's that, it's listening and then actively processing, it's actively thinking ahead so that you you reinforce what it is that you've heard in your own head, whether or not the trainer is helping you do that. 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:00.480 Right. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:12.079 I mean, because when the first time you hear it, it's gonna mean something totally different once you go practice it and get out in the field and then come back and then hear it again. 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:17.279 I love it when you get training, like initial training, like here's the overview. 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:22.880 I'm not gonna get too in, you know, in the weeds here, and then now go practice it. 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.519 And then that's how we do it at W30. 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:36.880 And then we bring them back, and then we we give them more and more product training on that specific um item or concept or selling concept or whatever we're doing. 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:44.880 So and and of, and of course, and that's that's of course really hard to do as the expert because you know you you know a lot about that product. 00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:50.799 So everything, everything in your instinct is wants to keep talking, wants to keep laying stuff on them. 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.359 That is gonna be so overwhelming, right? 00:33:53.440 --> 00:34:01.119 So bit you know, little, a little bit of a a little bit of a drip feed can and then come back, you come back, you ask them, okay, what do you remember from last time? 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.640 Have have they even used it? 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.079 Because we all know, right? 00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:12.159 If they're if I tell you something once, or you, even if we have a conversation, the odds of you remembering it, if you didn't apply it since then, those those go down pretty fast. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:16.400 And so, okay, have you even have you thought about this since the last time we chatted? 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:26.000 That that goes a long way to getting them to like dredge up what it is that that conversation was the first time and then had then have another conversation and another conversation and another conversation. 00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:28.239 And it just and it builds over time. 00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.039 It's not it, there is no magic bullet here. 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:38.880 It's just gonna, it takes people time to learn, just like it took you time to learn, but how quickly we forget how long that took. 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:42.719 Yeah, I mean, these are really great tips. 00:34:42.960 --> 00:35:01.119 So actually, I have like all these other questions I want and parts of our conversation I wanted to get into, but um, so I'd love to table the conversation and come back in another podcast to talk about um how to create a learning culture within your organization. 00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:02.159 Would you be down for that? 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.000 I'm wait, put me on the put put me on the spot here. 00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:09.360 Like, so in front of the audience, would you be willing to come back to talk about more? 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:22.639 Um, I'm I'm guessing you could probably convince me to come back and have a follow-up conversation, uh, given if the key, I mean I I was gonna say, do we do can people comment on these things? 00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:27.199 Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna put it on the audience to say, you know, did we think that was a worthwhile conversation? 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:28.639 Should we have, should he come back? 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.519 Or is like, okay, that was that was 45 minutes of my life. 00:35:31.599 -->

00:35:32.800 I'm never gonna get back. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.280 Um, what please, please, for the love of God, let's not continue that conversation with him. 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.079 So I'm gonna leave it to the audience to decide. 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:42.239 I mean, I'm an active learner here. 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:43.760 I mean, why? 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:45.199 So fair. 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.480 There you go. 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:47.679 This is great. 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:50.800 So I can't let you go before I get a confession. 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:53.760 So what is your confession for us today? 00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.960 Well, you know, I have a there's there's a lot of funny stories and a lot of weird experiences I've been through. 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:12.159 But but I, you know, here's I I think the funny one, and then maybe we if we do this again, maybe we can do some of the, you know, the random stuff about like where where my dog was bred and things like that. 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.679 Um there's the cliffhanger. 00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:14.880 There's the cliffhanger. 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:20.639 But but we've been talking about active, you know, active learners and people who engage in training. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.239 Um, confession. 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.679 I am a horrible participant at training. 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:26.800 Horrible. 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:29.280 I know, shocker, right? 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.800 Um well, I have this notorious problem. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:34.639 Um, I'm a learning professional. 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:43.599 And so when I go to a training, when I am an attendee at a training, I I don't I don't make it a nightmare for the for the trainer. 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:47.119 I empathize with the person who's trying to keep the cats herded. 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:49.119 So I don't make it hard on them. 00:36:49.280 --> 00:37:05.599 But in terms of all this, all of these skills that that good learners have, I have a really hard time focusing at on at training events and learning because I can't take off my professional hat of being someone who designs and develops and delivers training. 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.199 So instead of actually focusing on the content, what am I doing? 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.000 I'm sitting there thinking about, well, I wouldn't have done it that way. 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:13.039 I wouldn't have kicked it off that way. 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:14.400 I would have put in this activity here. 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.199 I would have, I would have done a break at a different time. 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:19.199 I would have, no, don't ask that question. 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:19.920 I would have followed. 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:26.800 So I'm sitting there re-architecting what the training is as opposed to actually engaging in the training. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.280 I've I've gotten better over time. 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:33.599 Um, I have come up with various tricks to prevent myself from going there. 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:39.280 But historically, yeah, I'm sitting here preaching about being a more active learner. 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.440 And if you ask me, so are you an active learner? 00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:42.639 I'm like, no, I'm not. 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:47.599 So I think I I have worked, I have work to do for myself too on this front. 00:37:47.760 --> 00:38:03.039 But I I admit it openly, it's given given the field I operate in, it is a massive problem for me when I am a learner and I have to find different ways to make sure that I'm doing what I need to do to actually learn, as opposed to do all the other things that my brain wants to do while I'm in a training. 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:10.960 Well, so if anybody um sees or hears um Michael in the crowd, no, he is judging you. 00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:14.000 Okay. 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:23.440 I think I didn't say it that way, but I guess in I guess to be fair, that I yeah, I think you I'm I wouldn't, you know, don't take it personally. 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:28.159 It's just when I'm yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm judgy in that regard. 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:36.639 It's no, I'm told I think it's to all those foods, to all those food service people in the audience, which I think is probably everybody, right? 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:45.440 Um, yeah, how often I understand we eat at restaurants and we enjoy them, but what's the first thing that food service folks do when they sit down at a restaurant, right? 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:47.280 They flip over the plate. 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.719 Um, and now I have not yet guilty as charged, right? 00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:55.360 I haven't done that yet, but I do peek over, you know, when there's front of house operations. 00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:57.920 I'm peeking over looking at the cook line. 00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.920 I'm I'm already I'm already doing it. 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:03.039 So let's talking about being judgy here. 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:06.559 I mean, I'm it's food service folks enjoying a meal. 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.119 That's kind of like my problem in a training. 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:10.960 So I hope, I hope you can empathize. 00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:13.280 But yes, feel free to give me crap about it. 00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:17.679 No, I'm I was just playing, and I think it's good to be self-aware. 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:27.679 And I'm glad that it's really cool to have people out there that that um are so passionate about training and learning and can be able to break this down. 00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:41.519 And I think um, so even if you're outside food service and your organization is struggling, you guys could reach out, you know, maybe to Michael on the side um and and um contract his services potentially. 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:55.440 But um I think this has been a really um good conversation and one that um our industry really needs because there's a lot of people that have been in the street for a long time, not as many newer people coming in. 00:39:55.599 --> 00:40:03.760 So um, and we as people are aging out, like we talked about, we need good training and we need we need to understand this. 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:10.239 Um so I'm excited, hopefully, potentially, if Michael will have us um for the next episode. 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:27.199 So well, listen, um CIFA as a buying group, when I when I came into CIFA from outside the industry, my my job, CIFA is, I think we'll have to I'll have to ask the audience, but um part of CIFA's reputation is what it does for its dealers in the in the training and marketing space. 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:35.519 And so um, when I came in, my job one was to just not damage the brand that CIFA had literally spent decades building when it came to training. 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:43.199 Um so yeah, the fact that I have a passion for training and I'm and I'm with a buying group that that has that same passion, um, not surprising at all. 00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:58.079 Um so you know, if you know if CIFA hears this and I and hopefully I haven't you know stepped on too many toes along the way and or said something that that misrepresents the brand, um, yeah, we'll have to we'll we'll we'll have to see if that follow up follow-up conversation happens to be continued. 00:40:58.400 --> 00:40:58.719 Okay. 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.199 Well, thank you so much, Michael. 00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.280 It's been it's you've been so fun. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.039 I really enjoy getting to know you. 00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:06.159 So same. 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:13.039 It's been it's been a blast, and and we'll see if there's a we'll see if there's a sequel that hopefully doesn't uh hopefully doesn't disappoint. 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:13.760 All right. 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:14.719 Thanks, Michael. 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:15.679 Thank you, Nancy. 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:20.320 For more inspiration, follow our social media at W3Cells. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.280 Please like, comment, and subscribe. 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:24.719 You know, all the things. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:26.960 We would love to connect with you.