บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Lin-Manuel Miranda

And then it's like 60 seconds of silence and we're 44 00:02:11.819 --> 00:02:12.319 sitting there. 45 00:02:12.340 --> 00:02:15.620 And it's so, the anticipation. That's my method. 46 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:16.560 Oh, it's good. 47 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:19.340 It just makes us laugh. Do you think, it's almost 48 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:21.340 like you think I'm setting the bar too high. I 49 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:24.620 make everyone be quiet and I like 60 seconds of 50 00:02:24.699 --> 00:02:27.659 pure silence. And then I lean into the mic dramatically 51 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:30.030 and I say, Hello there and welcome. 52 00:02:30.310 --> 00:02:31.530 Yeah, it's so casual. 53 00:02:31.550 --> 00:02:34.509 There's such a buildup for this. You know what I 54 00:02:34.509 --> 00:02:38.189 love is the disparity between the amount of time and 55 00:02:38.270 --> 00:02:42.400 preparation and silence and then just, well, hi, how are you? 56 00:02:42.469 --> 00:02:44.080 It's Brian. There's nothing. 57 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:46.919 It reminds me of when my parents would pray at 58 00:02:46.979 --> 00:02:48.919 a dinner table and you're not supposed to laugh at 59 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:49.500 that moment. 60 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:50.360 Right. 61 00:02:50.539 --> 00:02:54.259 So you laugh when other people are observing God? Is 62 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:56.759 that what you do? You find that laughable when others. 63 00:02:57.639 --> 00:02:57.960 When. 64 00:02:57.819 --> 00:02:59.960 Others thank a higher power for what they have in 65 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:00.280 their life. 66 00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:01.979 No, just how you're not supposed to laugh at that moment. 67 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:02.340 Yeah, sure. 68 00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:02.500 Yeah. 69 00:03:02.539 --> 00:03:05.199 I guess we all chuckle at that for the gratitude. 70 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.340 You're a terrible man, Gorley. 71 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:08.780 Terrible. 72 00:03:10.030 --> 00:03:10.469 Let's pray. 73 00:03:11.030 --> 00:03:13.990 Let's pray. Sona, you look nice today. You're wearing a 74 00:03:14.030 --> 00:03:14.930 nice summery dress. 75 00:03:14.949 --> 00:03:15.819 You do look nice. Thank you. 76 00:03:15.830 --> 00:03:16.110 Yeah. 77 00:03:16.129 --> 00:03:18.770 It's like a peasant dress. It's like a long. 78 00:03:19.210 --> 00:03:23.050 It's like a bohemian dress. It's very flowy and comfortable. 79 00:03:23.110 --> 00:03:26.050 Is that an Armenian? What I'm saying is, is that- 80 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:27.990 Watch it. No, no, this is a question. 81 00:03:28.030 --> 00:03:29.030 Why is that? Watch it. 82 00:03:29.310 --> 00:03:32.909 This is me asking you, do you, are there, is 83 00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:38.479 there clothing? Why is this me? Watch it. You know why. No, 84 00:03:38.580 --> 00:03:41.340 I don't know why. I'm asking, I'm curious about your culture. 85 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.280 I have taken you to Armenia. Did I not? You did. Okay. 86 00:03:44.539 --> 00:03:46.319 I took you to Armenia. We did a great show there. 87 00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:49.860 I'm just curious, do you have any clothes that are 88 00:03:50.259 --> 00:03:53.819 Armenian that you put on for your parents to celebrate Armenia? 89 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:56.819 And I would wear it to a podcast recording? 90 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:57.340 I don't know. 91 00:03:57.370 --> 00:03:58.870 Is that what you're asking me? 92 00:03:58.909 --> 00:04:00.830 Yeah, I looked at that long flowy dress and I 93 00:04:00.849 --> 00:04:02.530 thought maybe that's Armenian. 94 00:04:02.569 --> 00:04:05.370 No, this is not traditional Armenian clothing. This is just 95 00:04:05.449 --> 00:04:05.789 a dress. 96 00:04:05.849 --> 00:04:06.069 Right. 97 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:09.330 That's just like A.N. Taylor or B. Dalton's. 98 00:04:10.009 --> 00:04:11.210 What is happening? 99 00:04:12.069 --> 00:04:14.430 I'm taking a stab at, I don't know any dress names, 100 00:04:14.870 --> 00:04:16.170 but I'm just, I think. 101 00:04:16.189 --> 00:04:16.870 A bookstore. 102 00:04:16.889 --> 00:04:20.279 I just, I just went for it. 103 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:21.139 What is that? 104 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.139 You know, raspberries or, I mean, I just, so B. 105 00:04:25.180 --> 00:04:27.579 Dalton is, yeah, that's a bookstore, okay. I don't know 106 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:29.980 anything about what people. Oh my God, that's good. Is 107 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:35.199 this sharper image sweater you got on? What is that? 108 00:04:35.300 --> 00:04:36.339 Is that a black and decker? 109 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:36.860 What is that? 110 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:42.560 It's my GameStop t-shirt. I'm just curious. I don't know. 111 00:04:42.579 --> 00:04:45.769 I don't know. But I think Ann Taylor might have 112 00:04:45.790 --> 00:04:46.810 been right. Ann Taylor. 113 00:04:46.829 --> 00:04:47.750 Ann Taylor was right. 114 00:04:47.790 --> 00:04:49.670 You know why I know Ann Taylor? Do you know 115 00:04:49.689 --> 00:04:50.629 why I know Ann Taylor? 116 00:04:50.889 --> 00:04:51.089 Why? 117 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:54.209 Because I remembered when I was in college once and 118 00:04:54.269 --> 00:04:59.579 I heard two girls fighting. like through the next, you know, 119 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:01.779 through the, it was a thin wall in college and 120 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.100 I heard these two girls who were roommates fighting and 121 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:06.860 one had more money than the other and the one 122 00:05:06.899 --> 00:05:09.560 that was poor was saying, I can't afford all the 123 00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:14.339 nice things you have. I can't get dresses from... Ann Taylor. 124 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:14.819 Oh my God. 125 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:17.139 And I just remembered that being drilled into my head. 126 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:19.529 I didn't even know. And to this day, when someone, 127 00:05:19.910 --> 00:05:23.009 the name Ann Taylor

comes up, I think, Ann Taylor. 128 00:05:23.129 --> 00:05:26.310 I couldn't get books from B. Dalton. Right. I couldn't 129 00:05:26.350 --> 00:05:28.430 get tools in black and dagger. 130 00:05:29.689 --> 00:05:32.860 So, well, I'm- Yeah, Ann Taylor's too classy for me. 131 00:05:32.899 --> 00:05:34.060 I don't wear Ann Taylor. 132 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:34.399 Yeah. 133 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:35.639 Okay. 134 00:05:36.100 --> 00:05:37.439 And Gorley, you look nice. You do. 135 00:05:37.459 --> 00:05:37.660 You do. 136 00:05:40.089 --> 00:05:42.509 You dress very nicely. Thank you. You're wearing sort of 137 00:05:42.569 --> 00:05:43.930 a light summer suit. 138 00:05:43.990 --> 00:05:44.389 It's nice. 139 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:46.920 It's very... It's not true. It is true. It's a 140 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:53.149 light poplin. It's the suit that Atticus Finch... Without our woodware. 141 00:05:53.209 --> 00:05:54.110 Gregory Peck wore. 142 00:05:54.129 --> 00:05:54.589 A seersucker. 143 00:05:54.850 --> 00:05:56.829 Yeah. Yeah. It's a three-piece. 144 00:05:56.870 --> 00:05:57.129 It's nice. 145 00:05:57.149 --> 00:05:57.610 No, no, no. 146 00:05:57.629 --> 00:06:01.829 Yeah. Often, you can't picture Gorley, but he's often dressed 147 00:06:02.509 --> 00:06:06.170 as sort of a genteel Southern lawyer in the 1940s. 148 00:06:06.449 --> 00:06:06.879 Yeah. 149 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:09.439 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. 150 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:09.939 Yeah. 151 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:10.680 I come in. 152 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:11.120 Yeah. 153 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.160 I do wish I had a seersucker suit, though. I 154 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:14.899 know you mock me for these kind of things, but 155 00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:16.220 that's one that I'll wear. 156 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:17.829 Do you have a pipe? You look like a guy 157 00:06:17.850 --> 00:06:18.470 that might have a pipe. 158 00:06:18.509 --> 00:06:19.990 The only reason I have a pipe is- Do. 159 00:06:19.949 --> 00:06:22.620 You have a pipe? Do you have a pipe? Wait, wait, wait. 160 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:24.660 Do you have a pipe? Answer the question first. Yes. 161 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:27.810 Do you have a pipe? It was my grandfather's pipe. Oh, sure. Yeah, 162 00:06:27.819 --> 00:06:31.449 of course it was your grandfather's pipe, you freak. You 163 00:06:31.509 --> 00:06:33.389 have a pipe. I knew it. Doesn't he look like 164 00:06:33.430 --> 00:06:35.730 he has a pipe? It's my grandfather's pipe. It was 165 00:06:35.829 --> 00:06:38.069 given to me. I didn't go get it on a quest. 166 00:06:38.089 --> 00:06:40.110 What do you mean your grandfather's pipe? It was something 167 00:06:40.129 --> 00:06:42.069 that was in your grandfather's mouth and it was given 168 00:06:42.100 --> 00:06:42.379 to you? 169 00:06:42.829 --> 00:06:43.310 Yeah. 170 00:06:43.449 --> 00:06:44.040 That's kind of strange. 171 00:06:44.060 --> 00:06:47.160 It's the same as getting your grandfather's flask. Or his teeth. 172 00:06:47.699 --> 00:06:48.339 Oh, I wish. 173 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:49.939 Have you ever smoked out of it? 174 00:06:50.019 --> 00:06:50.199 No. 175 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.810 Oh, come on. I've never smoked a pipe. Like a, 176 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:53.759 you know, a pipe. 177 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:55.459 You will. You will. 178 00:06:55.899 --> 00:06:56.180 You know. 179 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:57.560 Yeah, what you got there now? 180 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:58.779 Well, I was just thinking. 181 00:06:58.819 --> 00:06:59.899 He's getting a little smiley now. 182 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:02.939 The look on Sona's face is like, do you want 183 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:05.220 to go down there, Gorley? Gorley's getting a little smiley, 184 00:07:05.300 --> 00:07:06.259 which usually means trouble. 185 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:07.480 What you got there, Gorley? 186 00:07:07.579 --> 00:07:07.879 Nothing. 187 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:10.879 He almost went for his gun, but he didn't draw. 188 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:11.980 No, I didn't. Coward. 189 00:07:12.250 --> 00:07:12.670 Okay. 190 00:07:14.189 --> 00:07:17.449 I'm excited about today's show. Sona's wearing her Armenian dress. 191 00:07:17.910 --> 00:07:25.230 Gorley is wearing a white seersucker suit. And he's fanning himself. 192 00:07:25.750 --> 00:07:26.589 Oh, my. 193 00:07:26.930 --> 00:07:29.389 My guess this week, I'm very excited about. They don't 194 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:30.649 get much bigger than this, I got to tell you. 195 00:07:30.670 --> 00:07:31.089 That's right. 196 00:07:31.250 --> 00:07:31.430 No. 197 00:07:31.750 --> 00:07:33.009 My guess this week is, what did you say? 198 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:34.600 I agreed with you. 199 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.139 I said nope. I thought you said no. I did 200 00:07:37.180 --> 00:07:38.480 say no. They don't get much. 201 00:07:38.379 --> 00:07:39.060 Bigger than that. 202 00:07:39.339 --> 00:07:39.579 No. 203 00:07:39.899 --> 00:07:43.620 Okay. They don't not get bigger. What's that? Double negative? 204 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:44.899 Not even. 205 00:07:45.129 --> 00:07:45.639 They don't not. 206 00:07:45.649 --> 00:07:48.730 Not even don't not get no bigger. My guess this 207 00:07:48.769 --> 00:07:51.430 week has won an Emmy, a Grammy, a Tony Award. 208 00:07:51.740 --> 00:07:53.079 A poet's surprise. 209 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:53.439 Jesus. 210 00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:54.800 What else can you win? 211 00:07:54.939 --> 00:07:55.779 Podcast award. 212 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.980 There aren't any. He's an actor, composer, playwright, and producer. 213 00:07:59.019 --> 00:08:01.040 He's also the creator of one of the most successful 214 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:03.850 musicals of all time, Hamilton. If you don't know who 215 00:08:03.870 --> 00:08:06.430 he is by now, you're a fool. He's currently working 216 00:08:06.490 --> 00:08:10.250 on the movie adaptation of his hit musical, In the Heights. 217

00:08:10.730 --> 00:08:12.990 We are thrilled that we are joined today by the 218 00:08:13.149 --> 00:08:19.860 brilliant Lynn. Manuel Miranda. 219 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:20.399 Welcome, sir. 220 00:08:20.420 --> 00:08:20.689 Thank you. 221 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:25.000 I've been looking forward to talking to you on the 222 00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:26.620 podcast because we have so much in common. 223 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:27.079 Indeed. 224 00:08:27.370 --> 00:08:30.730 We are both the sons of Puerto Rican parents. 225 00:08:30.810 --> 00:08:31.110 Indeed. 226 00:08:31.529 --> 00:08:35.950 And we both wrote Hamilton. And in that way, I'm 227 00:08:35.970 --> 00:08:38.649 surprised we haven't really talked before. It's weird. It's a 228 00:08:38.690 --> 00:08:41.120 little weird that we haven't talked. My Hamilton I wrote first. 229 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:44.279 It was not successful. I then wrote a musical about 230 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:48.649 Hamilton Fish, the Secretary of State in the late 1890s. 231 00:08:48.659 --> 00:08:49.399 That went nowhere. 232 00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:50.200 That went nowhere. 233 00:08:50.340 --> 00:08:52.730 It went nowhere. Yeah. And I tried rapping. 234 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:57.070 That was a mistake. Sona, you can tell. I try 235 00:08:57.169 --> 00:08:59.669 rapping every now and then. It's awful. Okay, that's enough. 236 00:08:59.690 --> 00:09:01.649 It is the worst rapping I've ever heard. 237 00:09:01.710 --> 00:09:02.990 I mean, you asked her to jump in, and she 238 00:09:03.009 --> 00:09:03.389 jumped in. 239 00:09:03.490 --> 00:09:04.570 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 240 00:09:04.629 --> 00:09:09.090 I immediately regretted it. At the ready. Awful rapping. One 241 00:09:09.110 --> 00:09:11.879 of the things that I immediately struck when I met 242 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:13.940 you is you have such a great sense of humor, 243 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:19.000 and you're so funny, and... I realized that that's a 244 00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:21.740 skill you probably developed when you were a kid. 245 00:09:22.070 --> 00:09:22.259 Yeah. 246 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:25.049 Because that's what has to happen. It's a survival instinct. 247 00:09:25.190 --> 00:09:27.490 Yes. And I thought this would be a good starting 248 00:09:27.549 --> 00:09:29.730 off point, which is when you're growing up and you're 249 00:09:29.750 --> 00:09:32.919 a kid and you're insecure... at least that was my situation. 250 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.090 And then you realize, wait, I do have this one thing. 251 00:09:36.110 --> 00:09:38.080 I'm going to see what it's worth and develop it. 252 00:09:38.110 --> 00:09:39.029 What was that like for you? 253 00:09:39.110 --> 00:09:42.629 Yeah, for me, it was interesting. I sort of won 254 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:45.149 the lotto when I was five. I got into this 255 00:09:45.269 --> 00:09:48.690 like magnet public school called Hunter for smart kids. And 256 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:51.690 I walked in there and realized, oh, these kids are 257 00:09:51.730 --> 00:09:53.570 a lot smarter than me. I went from like a 258 00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:55.210 nursery school uptown where I was the only kid who 259 00:09:55.230 --> 00:09:57.879 knew how to read. And I would have quiet time 260 00:09:57.899 --> 00:10:00.240 while I had my own play time while they were 261 00:10:00.259 --> 00:10:03.600 all learning cat, bat, at. And I was like, I'm 262 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:06.000 over here putting on a show for myself. 263 00:10:06.019 --> 00:10:08.570 Yeah, I'm Einstein because I know how to say cat 264 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:09.090 and bat. 265 00:10:09.139 --> 00:10:09.659 Exactly. 266 00:10:09.990 --> 00:10:12.669 And then I went to this school where you know, 267 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:16.529 I remember Talmudic discussions on the existence of Santa Claus. 268 00:10:16.750 --> 00:10:19.340 And like, like literally I have this memory of like 269 00:10:19.409 --> 00:10:22.960 a six year old being like, what's so unrealistic about 270 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:27.080 a guy who helps people and gets them presents. And 271 00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:30.440 maybe it's not one guy, but like really like doing 272 00:10:30.460 --> 00:10:31.740 like a hardcore justification. 273 00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:32.360 Fascinating. 274 00:10:32.379 --> 00:10:34.139 Like this guy's making some good points. 275 00:10:34.179 --> 00:10:34.860 Yeah. 276 00:10:35.059 --> 00:10:36.940 And I realized that like being funny is like the 277 00:10:37.179 --> 00:10:41.019 only currency to keep up when you are like sort of, 278 00:10:41.529 --> 00:10:44.730 treading water to stay afloat, I think, intellectually. I was like, oh, 279 00:10:44.809 --> 00:10:47.350 but I can be funny, and that's the only currency 280 00:10:47.370 --> 00:10:48.629 that matters among smart kids. 281 00:10:49.269 --> 00:10:53.100 I found out early, I was interested in girls early on, 282 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:59.009 but I had No skills in any other department. It 283 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:02.769 was literally going through a checklist of athlete, no. You know, 284 00:11:03.029 --> 00:11:06.690 I'm this. I'm super good looking. You know, no. I 285 00:11:06.730 --> 00:11:09.080 was going through the list, and it was just no, no, no, no, no. 286 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:09.769 Sense of humor. 287 00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:11.039 So I doubled down on that. 288 00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:15.720 And I found that that was sort of my way 289 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:20.309 of trying to have some game. But then, of course... 290 00:11:20.570 --> 00:11:22.730 whenever a girl was slightly interested, I didn't know what 291 00:11:22.789 --> 00:11:25.269 to do. You know, I don't know if you used it. 292 00:11:25.289 --> 00:11:27.269 I mean, do you have good game? Did you have 293 00:11:27.330 --> 00:11:30.429 game back in the day with the ladies? I mean, 294 00:11:30.460 --> 00:11:32.379 I know I was a theater kid. 295 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:34.500

I mean, theater kid, again, it's similar to what you 296 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.080 said in terms of like finding your lane and doubling 297 00:11:37.139 --> 00:11:41.419 down on it. And for me, that was theater. We 298 00:11:41.460 --> 00:11:45.230 had sort of the sixth grade play, which was every 299 00:11:45.250 --> 00:11:46.889 kid in the grade had to be in this musical, 300 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:49.830 even if you did not care at all about musicals. 301 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.259 And I think they ran out of age-appropriate musicals by 302 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:56.820 the time I reached sixth grade. So we did 20-minute 303 00:11:56.860 --> 00:12:02.389 versions of Oklahoma, Bye Bye Birdie, Peter Pan, a mashup 304 00:12:02.429 --> 00:12:05.049 of The Wizard of Oz and The Wiz, West Side Story, 305 00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:08.950 and Fiddler on the Roof. And I got cast as 306 00:12:09.110 --> 00:12:11.250 Conrad Birdie. And I don't know if you're familiar with 307 00:12:11.289 --> 00:12:11.649 that show. 308 00:12:11.690 --> 00:12:12.850 Bye Bye Birdie, yeah. 309 00:12:13.070 --> 00:12:13.570 He's Elvis. 310 00:12:13.649 --> 00:12:14.230 Yeah, he's Elvis. 311 00:12:14.269 --> 00:12:17.830 And so suddenly I'm 12 years old and three feet even. 312 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.460 And suddenly all the girls and boys have to faint 313 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:25.679 when I sing. Like it's indescript that they faint. And 314 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:29.120 I was like, well, why would anyone do anything else 315 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:29.559 for a. 316 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.120 Living but this? What was your Elvis like at that age? 317 00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:36.100 I had the curled lip down. I remember, I don't 318 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:38.159 know if you did this, but I remember working on 319 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:39.820 my facial expressions because I was like, I'm going to 320 00:12:39.860 --> 00:12:41.799 be an actor one day. And I'll need to know 321 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:44.039 all of them. I thought the more facial expressions you had, 322 00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:46.120 the better an actor you were. And so I remember 323 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.710 like literally holding my lip in place until I could 324 00:12:48.750 --> 00:12:50.269 develop the muscles that curled it. 325 00:12:50.429 --> 00:12:50.710 Oh, wow. 326 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.730 You are curling it amazingly well right now. Like there's 327 00:12:53.789 --> 00:12:56.330 fishing line attached to the end of your lip. That's crazy. 328 00:12:56.370 --> 00:13:00.250 That is a sixth grade, before sixth grade summer honed skill. 329 00:13:00.289 --> 00:13:02.220 Same with the eyebrow. Same with the arched eyebrow. Like 330 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.080 I remember like holding in place until I knew what 331 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:06.360 muscles like kept it up. 332 00:13:07.340 --> 00:13:07.940 That's intense. 333 00:13:08.179 --> 00:13:09.259 I was a very lonely child. 334 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.519 So you walked around for a while. You walked around 335 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:15.080 for a while as Elvis thinking this is going to work. 336 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:15.559 Yeah. 337 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:18.190 And I got cast as that part. And then the 338 00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:20.690 fact that like. Girls I had crushes on, girls who 339 00:13:20.710 --> 00:13:22.789 had never knew I existed, had to faint. There was 340 00:13:22.809 --> 00:13:24.889 like 40 kids in my class. And I'm going, if 341 00:13:24.929 --> 00:13:27.350 you're really sincere. And I'd move my hips and then 342 00:13:27.389 --> 00:13:32.370 they would fall. If you're really sincere. And I was like, 343 00:13:32.409 --> 00:13:35.909 this is the greatest moment of my life. And it's 344 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:36.669 in the script. 345 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:36.980 Right. 346 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.519 And then sadly, you left the auditorium and was trying 347 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:41.419 it on real people. 348 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.580 Yeah, it didn't work so well. 12-year-old gyrating wildly. 349 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:49.659 He has epilepsy. Moved to no one. Yeah. Get him 350 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:50.340 some medicine. 351 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:51.399 He's going to be okay. 352 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:52.580 Yeah. 353 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:54.600 But then, but I, that was my lane. And so 354 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:57.240 I started auditioning for shows in middle school and high school. 355 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.110 And I think being a theater kid is like, it's 356 00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:02.769 such a, it's such a magic bullet in high school 357 00:14:02.789 --> 00:14:05.210 because you get to meet friends from different grades. So 358 00:14:05.230 --> 00:14:07.750 like the drama of your grade, you can take a 359 00:14:07.769 --> 00:14:09.190 break from it. You can go, oh, I can go play. 360 00:14:09.490 --> 00:14:10.889 hang out with my older friends who I was in 361 00:14:10.929 --> 00:14:13.090 a play with. Or I could hang out with these 362 00:14:13.129 --> 00:14:16.269 younger friends because the world is feeling too real. And 363 00:14:17.049 --> 00:14:19.649 then you learn to collaborate. You learn to make something 364 00:14:19.690 --> 00:14:21.730 bigger than yourself and all that stuff. 365 00:14:21.929 --> 00:14:24.200 The issue I had, and I think it hurt me 366 00:14:24.379 --> 00:14:26.919 when I sort of experimented or dabbled at all in theater, 367 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:29.980 was my only interest was in being funny. And I 368 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.919 always thought, I'm really impressed with people that can, you 369 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.059 can do both. I know you can be really funny, 370 00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:39.220 but you can also access real emotions and I thought 371 00:14:39.259 --> 00:14:41.580 wow I just I don't know that's that's I cannot 372 00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:43.019 do it couldn't do it if

you put a gun 373 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.399 to my head really yeah I can't that's uh I'm 374 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.750 a broken man well this is over that's all I 375 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:52.070 really wanted to do was get you in here and 376 00:14:52.090 --> 00:14:55.470 tell you that there's a piece missing in me yeah 377 00:14:55.809 --> 00:14:57.769 um and now it's your problem now. 378 00:14:57.669 --> 00:14:59.690 You have to uh I'll carry that around for the 379 00:14:59.730 --> 00:15:00.169 rest of my. 380 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:04.809 Life You've said that songs can– and this is– a 381 00:15:04.850 --> 00:15:07.230 lot of people say that songs affect them, music affects them. 382 00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:09.860 But even as a little kid, there are certain songs 383 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.740 that you could hear and you would become openly emotional. 384 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:13.899 Yeah. 385 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.200 Like Bridge Over Troubled Water or something like that. 386 00:15:16.220 --> 00:15:18.360 Yeah, my parents tell a story that that would play 387 00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:19.990 and I would just– like as a baby, I would 388 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.039 like burst into tears. Bridge Over Troubled Water. I remember– 389 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.100 being devastated at Stevie Wonder's I Just Called to Say 390 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:29.159 I Love You, which is a nice song. It's a ballad, 391 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:31.799 but if you listen to the lyrics and think of 392 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:36.029 it from a little kid's perspective. No New Year's Day. What? 393 00:15:36.529 --> 00:15:41.610 To celebrate. No, like, candy. 394 00:15:41.789 --> 00:15:42.470 Like, no. 395 00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:44.129 No first of spring. 396 00:15:44.269 --> 00:15:44.730 What? 397 00:15:45.269 --> 00:15:50.460 No song to sing. In fact, it's just another ordinary day. Oh, fuck. 398 00:15:51.299 --> 00:15:53.639 And then, like, I couldn't make it to the turn 399 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:55.279 where it's like, but I love you. Right. 400 00:15:55.299 --> 00:15:57.940 No, you couldn't get that far. It's all over. Right. 401 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:00.480 And I would just burst into tears at no New 402 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:00.960 Year's Day. 403 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:05.460 I saw a three-year-old in the corner drinking gin and crying. Yeah. 404 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.940 It's just a list of, like, shit going away. It's 405 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.120 like Twitter today. 406 00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:12.320 You know what's funny, too, is that you don't, yeah, 407 00:16:12.539 --> 00:16:14.200 you don't also, I don't think a lot of kids, 408 00:16:14.259 --> 00:16:16.840 I mean, I wasn't even aware of listening to lyrics 409 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:17.600 that intently. 410 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:19.370 You were really listening to the lyrics. 411 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:20.139 I think so. 412 00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:21.990 I think a lot of times I wasn't listening to 413 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:23.769 lyrics so much as just singing the song, and the 414 00:16:23.809 --> 00:16:26.730 song could be horribly sad, but if I liked the melody, 415 00:16:26.750 --> 00:16:30.269 I was just like, hey. And then I would happily 416 00:16:30.330 --> 00:16:32.789 sing a song about, you know, people starving to death 417 00:16:32.809 --> 00:16:33.289 in Ireland. 418 00:16:33.309 --> 00:16:33.909 Right, right. 419 00:16:34.610 --> 00:16:37.009 Well, I mean, some of the happiest, the most joyous 420 00:16:37.029 --> 00:16:40.090 songs to sing are deadly depressing Irish drinking songs where 421 00:16:40.129 --> 00:16:43.080 like the content is like, wait a minute, what are 422 00:16:43.100 --> 00:16:43.740 we singing about? 423 00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:44.159 Right. 424 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:45.860 And that's the thing in Latin music too that I love. 425 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.940 Sometimes it'll be like the bounciest, happiest meeting in the world, 426 00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:51.159 but it's actually a song about like the terrible medical 427 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.659 conditions in the Dominican Republic. And you're like, wait a minute, 428 00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:56.220 I just stopped shaking my hips and listened to the 429 00:16:56.259 --> 00:16:57.279 words for the first time. 430 00:16:57.330 --> 00:16:58.909 This tune is burning up the charts. 431 00:16:58.950 --> 00:16:59.129 What? 432 00:16:59.149 --> 00:17:10.049 What? That's fantastic. Something that I also am very fascinated 433 00:17:10.089 --> 00:17:12.170 by is the concept, and I've talked about it before 434 00:17:12.210 --> 00:17:14.920 on the podcast, but this very popular and kind of 435 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:19.000 hackneyed concept that great work comes from suffering and depression. 436 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:23.180 And I have always battled with that because I've thought, really? 437 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.259 I used to really believe in probably in a Catholic 438 00:17:26.299 --> 00:17:29.940 way that I needed to suffer a lot and feel 439 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:32.240 terrible in order to make something good. 440 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:35.539 Yeah, I'm a recovering Catholic too. I know that sentiment 441 00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:35.880 very well. 442 00:17:35.900 --> 00:17:37.559 But I know you're aware of the sentiment, but I 443 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.839 do feel like a lot of great, you've produced a 444 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:43.619 lot of great work and that it hasn't necessarily come 445 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:45.539 from a miserable place for you. 446 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:46.440 Is that right? 447 00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:49.539 Well, I think that there's two different things. There is 448 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:52.609 accessing what you need to access to create your work. 449 00:17:52.789 --> 00:17:55.309 And that can come from The saddest part of you, 450 00:17:55.349 --> 00:17:57.329 the angriest part of

you. And then there's the working 451 00:17:57.369 --> 00:17:59.609 conditions under which you're creating this work. And I think 452 00:17:59.670 --> 00:18:03.130 that's where we confuse things. You know, I think that 453 00:18:03.170 --> 00:18:06.049 when I realized Hamilton was what I was going to 454 00:18:06.089 --> 00:18:07.730 write about and I was stuck with him and his 455 00:18:07.769 --> 00:18:09.259 ghost was going to haunt me until I wrote it 456 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:11.720 all out, I realized I was going to have to 457 00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:14.019 go to some very dark places with inside myself to 458 00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:17.069 find the things to write that story. And you can 459 00:18:17.089 --> 00:18:18.950 look at that as an opportunity. Oh, like I can 460 00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:20.910 have an affair, but I don't really have to have 461 00:18:20.930 --> 00:18:22.319 an affair and fuck up my marriage, but I can 462 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:24.400 write about it and write about the guilt of that 463 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:27.079 and how horrible that feels losing a child. I mean, 464 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.420 all the worst things happen to Hamilton in addition to 465 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:32.900 some wonderful things that happen. And you can access that 466 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:34.420 in a safe way. If you're writing about it, you 467 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:36.220 can go there emotionally. You can figure out what that 468 00:18:36.259 --> 00:18:39.150 feels like and then write it down. I think where 469 00:18:39.190 --> 00:18:40.869 a lot of artists get confused is they think that 470 00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:43.269 they need to literally suffer. 471 00:18:43.490 --> 00:18:43.710 Yes. 472 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:46.609 You can go, you know, I, This is where I'm 473 00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:49.049 very grateful that my mom was a psychologist and realized 474 00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:53.309 I was doing this no matter what, because she not 475 00:18:53.390 --> 00:18:55.450 only sort of gave me the it's all grist for 476 00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:58.650 the mill speech a million times as a kid, like, oh, 477 00:18:58.660 --> 00:18:59.059 you're sad. 478 00:18:59.119 --> 00:18:59.579 Like, good. 479 00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:01.740 Remember how this feels. You're going to be a writer, right? 480 00:19:01.819 --> 00:19:04.220 So you're going to have to access this again someday. 481 00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:07.650 and kind of peppering that in. And she also used 482 00:19:07.670 --> 00:19:09.150 that to get me to do shit I didn't want 483 00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:11.650 to do. Like, no, you're going to take out the trash. 484 00:19:11.690 --> 00:19:13.150 You're a writer, right? You're going to have to know 485 00:19:13.190 --> 00:19:15.940 how this feels. Take out the fucking trash. So it 486 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.660 also became a way of getting me to do things 487 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:19.420 I didn't want to do as a child. 488 00:19:19.539 --> 00:19:20.839 You're going to go to the 7-Eleven and you're going 489 00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:21.900 to take that payday bar. 490 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:22.359 Yeah. 491 00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:24.519 Because you need to know what it's like to steal. 492 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:25.109 Now go do it. 493 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.940 Yeah, now go feel alive. Bring mom your payday. But 494 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:31.829 the other part of that is, I think people all– 495 00:19:31.849 --> 00:19:34.789 there's this myth of creative tension creating great art too. 496 00:19:35.329 --> 00:19:38.170 And I think that's horseshit. I get really stressed out 497 00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:40.990 and sad and eat when I am in a situation 498 00:19:41.029 --> 00:19:43.710 where I'm fighting with my collaborators. I feel really lucky 499 00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:47.079 that I found Tommy Kail who really believes that we 500 00:19:47.150 --> 00:19:49.920 don't have to kill ourselves and each other to make 501 00:19:49.940 --> 00:19:53.339 great art. We can just get in the room and 502 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:55.980 have spirited debate, to be sure, but make the same 503 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.500 thing and just get marching in the same order. And 504 00:19:58.619 --> 00:20:03.579 I think a lot of people bring that myth to 505 00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:05.609 destructive ends in their work. 506 00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:08.029 I think a lot of it, too, frankly, is people 507 00:20:08.089 --> 00:20:12.170 that Have ability, have talent, but they happen to be 508 00:20:12.210 --> 00:20:16.109 miserable people. And that doesn't really have anything to do 509 00:20:16.509 --> 00:20:20.839 with their ability to create. And so the two get conflated. 510 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.369 So people say, well, he's a terrible asshole and a misanthrope. 511 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:26.779 But he wrote a great musical. 512 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:29.839 What's the great Lorne Michaels joke that he always tells? Like, 513 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:32.259 you know, the patient is sick. My brother thinks he's 514 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.109 a chicken. I would take him to the hospital, but 515 00:20:34.130 --> 00:20:34.609 I need the eggs. 516 00:20:34.690 --> 00:20:35.190 I need the eggs. 517 00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:35.809 Yeah. Right. 518 00:20:35.869 --> 00:20:38.930 Which is, you know, can justify all manner of bad behavior. 519 00:20:39.230 --> 00:20:39.410 Right. 520 00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:42.369 And I think that is something that, I don't know, 521 00:20:42.410 --> 00:20:45.200 I've been like on a personal crusade to. 522 00:20:45.259 --> 00:20:45.440 Yeah. 523 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:50.799 People can do good work and be nice and be 524 00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:55.019 expected to be nice. And if they're not nice, you 525 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.099 need to tell them, hey, that wasn't very nice. Well, 526 00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:57.500 I wouldn't. 527 00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:58.329

I'd have someone do it. 528 00:20:58.339 --> 00:21:01.519 And if they didn't do it, I'd tear them a 529 00:21:01.539 --> 00:21:06.920 new asshole. You found out that rhyming was your superpower. 530 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.500 I rhyme all the time, but it's horrible. 531 00:21:11.779 --> 00:21:12.380 It's terrible. 532 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:13.559 Right, Zona? Yeah. 533 00:21:13.750 --> 00:21:14.470 Yes, yeah. 534 00:21:14.650 --> 00:21:16.339 He does some of the worst raps I've ever heard. 535 00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:18.180 I don't know if I mentioned that yet. 536 00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:19.599 Yeah, you said, okay. 537 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:22.799 You can take a really great song and just ruin 538 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:23.460 it easily. 539 00:21:23.539 --> 00:21:24.369 And I love to do it. 540 00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:26.589 Were you like a Tom Lear, Weird Al guy growing up? 541 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:29.829 Did you like parody music? Because Weird Al was really 542 00:21:29.869 --> 00:21:30.490 essential for me. 543 00:21:30.549 --> 00:21:32.829 Yeah, yeah. I know Weird Al was huge for you. 544 00:21:32.930 --> 00:21:36.789 I'm a bit older. I... I wasn't as much into 545 00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:41.049 Weird Al and into parody songs when I was a kid, 546 00:21:41.150 --> 00:21:44.730 but I loved, I can't remember lyrics, but I love 547 00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:48.390 to sing, you know, comically. And so I just make 548 00:21:48.450 --> 00:21:51.220 up my own lyrics and I've always done it. And I, 549 00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:54.759 I don't, I will happily sing like a song that's, 550 00:21:55.190 --> 00:21:57.160 you know, like whatever number one on the, on the 551 00:21:57.220 --> 00:22:00.079 music charts. Yeah. But I absolutely have no idea what 552 00:22:00.099 --> 00:22:03.319 the lyrics are, but doesn't stop me. And I'll rhyme, um, 553 00:22:03.980 --> 00:22:07.240 I'll work in beef au jus and Superman and all 554 00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:08.869 this stuff that's just random mush. 555 00:22:08.890 --> 00:22:11.109 I've never heard that word said out loud before. I've 556 00:22:11.170 --> 00:22:11.869 only read it on menus. 557 00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:12.529 Yes, yes. 558 00:22:12.710 --> 00:22:13.289 Beef au jus? 559 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:16.069 Yeah, I always say, what are you gonna do? My 560 00:22:16.089 --> 00:22:19.180 favorite food in the cafeteria is beef au jus. And 561 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:22.259 I mean, these songs are just absolutely stupid and I 562 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:25.960 sing them with great conviction. And drive people around me insane. 563 00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:29.109 But you realized early on, like, you call rhyme one 564 00:22:29.130 --> 00:22:31.630 of your superpowers. Like, you figured out, like, it's kind 565 00:22:31.650 --> 00:22:32.789 of a power that you had. 566 00:22:32.950 --> 00:22:35.839 Yeah, well, it was. But, like, one I worked really 567 00:22:36.019 --> 00:22:38.420 hard at. Like I said, like, Weird Al was my guy. Like, 568 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:42.299 I remember loving the Michael Jackson song, Bad, and then 569 00:22:42.339 --> 00:22:44.309 hearing the Weird Al song, Fat, and be like. this 570 00:22:44.329 --> 00:22:46.859 sounds exactly like the other song, but it's funnier. Like, 571 00:22:47.259 --> 00:22:49.000 ipso facto, this is a better song. 572 00:22:49.819 --> 00:22:51.609 Michael Jackson missed an opportunity here. 573 00:22:51.630 --> 00:22:53.529 Yeah, I mean, he teed it up, but Weird Al 574 00:22:53.549 --> 00:22:56.240 knocked it out. And that's kind of how I feel 575 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.940 about half to two thirds of Weird Al's parody. I'm like, yeah, 576 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.339 I probably, I've still never heard the kinks as Lola. 577 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.799 I've only heard Yoda. I can't imagine Lola will surpass it. 578 00:23:08.380 --> 00:23:09.720 That's just kind of wrong. 579 00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:14.829 But I think I always, I really enjoyed, one, I 580 00:23:14.849 --> 00:23:17.160 think when you grow up loving Weird Al, you learn 581 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:20.190 that genre is fluid and that like you can work 582 00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:23.210 in any genre and that's just instrumentation. And you learn 583 00:23:23.250 --> 00:23:25.819 to love different kinds of music because he, Parodies, lots 584 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.019 of different kinds of music. And also you just learn 585 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:29.920 to have fun with words. Like you fall in love 586 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:32.599 with words and how they sit on music and how 587 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.180 the right words in the right place can be fucking hilarious. 588 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:39.869 So that was, you know, I'm really... grateful for that. 589 00:23:39.910 --> 00:23:41.910 But the rhyming thing, I'm also like a little younger 590 00:23:41.950 --> 00:23:43.630 than hip hop music. There was never a time it 591 00:23:43.670 --> 00:23:48.609 didn't exist in my life. And so, you know, I 592 00:23:48.670 --> 00:23:52.009 was listening to it constantly growing up. And then it's funny, 593 00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:54.630 like musical, I think musical theater and hip hop see 594 00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:58.690 rhyme fundamentally differently. Like hip hop sees slant rhyme and 595 00:23:58.710 --> 00:24:01.880 the unexpected rhyme as like, that's like the win. If 596 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.019 like you don't go moon June, you do some crazy 597 00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:09.240 other word. It's like, whereas like, You know, if you 598 00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:12.619 have it even slightly off-rhyme, musical theater purists will be like, well, 599 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:13.799 that's not a pure rhyme. 600 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.819 And yet— It's not Moon June. They expect Moon June. 601 00:24:18.859 --> 00:24:22.539 Yeah, but also, like, I think that what musical theater 602 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:24.880 purists have right is

that when it comes to, like, 603 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.039 humor— a pure rhyme will like land a punchline better 604 00:24:28.099 --> 00:24:30.000 than like a off rhyme. Like if it's an off rhyme, 605 00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:32.259 you're like, ah, you didn't really get it. But like, 606 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:34.240 you know, I just saw Kiss Me Kate yesterday and 607 00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:36.440 that brush up your Shakespeare and the way Cole Porter 608 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.500 fucks with words to make rhymes with Troilus and Cressida. 609 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:42.309 I mean, there's so much joy in that, in making 610 00:24:42.349 --> 00:24:45.809 it really rhyme. So I've thought more about this than 611 00:24:45.849 --> 00:24:48.109 most people. And I'm rambling now. 612 00:24:48.410 --> 00:24:51.009 No, I think it's, I'm going to check my notes, 613 00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:54.630 but I think it's paid off for you. Yes, it has. Yes, 614 00:24:54.710 --> 00:24:57.529 I see that you've had some success, it says here. 615 00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:01.809 You talk about these different songs that mean different things 616 00:25:01.849 --> 00:25:05.630 to you, and one of them is Under Pressure, the 617 00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:11.220 collaboration between David Bowie and Queen. And I'm curious, what 618 00:25:11.299 --> 00:25:14.980 is it particularly about that song that gets to you? 619 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.559 Is it the way it's... Because I've had an observation 620 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:21.180 about that song, and a friend of mine and I 621 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:24.259 were talking about it not long ago, and we were... 622 00:25:25.509 --> 00:25:27.529 The beginning, early part of that song, the stuff Freddie 623 00:25:27.569 --> 00:25:29.970 Mercury is doing is borderline insane. 624 00:25:30.230 --> 00:25:30.450 Yeah. 625 00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:33.589 You know? There's no reason it should work. 626 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:34.569 Yes, yes. 627 00:25:34.710 --> 00:25:37.150 And it is- It's like an accidental miracle, that song. 628 00:25:37.210 --> 00:25:38.130 Right, right. 629 00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:39.750 And the more you read about it, the more you 630 00:25:39.769 --> 00:25:41.710 realize they were just fucking around in the studio. 631 00:25:41.470 --> 00:25:41.950 Until they got it. 632 00:25:41.970 --> 00:25:42.609 I didn't know that. 633 00:25:42.630 --> 00:25:43.970 I don't even know that right now. 634 00:25:44.569 --> 00:25:49.359 And, well, again, my first introduction was Vanilla Ice's Ice 635 00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:50.170 Ice Baby to. 636 00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:50.559 That bass line. 637 00:25:50.579 --> 00:25:52.579 I was working at Sound Out Live when Vanilla Ice 638 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.509 came on and did Ice Ice Baby- And I remembered 639 00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:58.839 writers saying, this is terrible. It's this white punk co-opting. 640 00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:01.309 And I said, guys, guys, give him a chance. He 641 00:26:01.329 --> 00:26:03.049 may be the formative artist. 642 00:26:03.089 --> 00:26:07.630 He flows like a harpoon daily and nightly. Flowing like 643 00:26:07.670 --> 00:26:09.390 a harpoon daily. That's what he does. 644 00:26:09.470 --> 00:26:10.190 That's what he does. 645 00:26:10.690 --> 00:26:12.890 But I remember it sounding to people like, maybe he's 646 00:26:12.910 --> 00:26:14.069 going to be like the formative. 647 00:26:14.410 --> 00:26:14.829 Oh, no. 648 00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:18.170 No, he's just a no. 649 00:26:18.349 --> 00:26:19.650 We'll see him again in a reality show. 650 00:26:19.690 --> 00:26:22.089 It was that and Ninja Turtles 2 and then that 651 00:26:22.130 --> 00:26:24.710 was that. But yeah, so I knew the baseline first. 652 00:26:26.710 --> 00:26:28.829 And then I heard the song for the first time 653 00:26:29.049 --> 00:26:31.650 and I just burst into tears every time the David 654 00:26:31.670 --> 00:26:33.859 Bowie song, and I think it's because the beginning sounds... 655 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.069 I've thought about it a lot. So do you really 656 00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:38.549 want like an in-depth analysis of the song? 657 00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:38.690 I do. 658 00:26:38.710 --> 00:26:41.410 That's what we're here for. Okay, so first of all, 659 00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:45.569 you're right. Freddie Mercury is literally going, do-ba-do-ba-ba, do-ba. 660 00:26:46.410 --> 00:26:51.609 Like straight up scatting. But he's also saying, ba-da-ba-ba-ba. And 661 00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:54.839 then he goes, okay. And you're like, what? And I 662 00:26:54.859 --> 00:26:58.400 literally thought like, when he goes, okay. I'm like, if 663 00:26:58.460 --> 00:26:59.779 I was a sound engineer, I'd be like, okay, we're 664 00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:00.319 taking that out. 665 00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:03.299 Yeah, but he says, people on the streets, And so, okay, 666 00:27:03.339 --> 00:27:05.759 that's been established. People on the streets. I don't know 667 00:27:05.779 --> 00:27:07.630 what that means and what context. Are they marching? Are 668 00:27:07.650 --> 00:27:08.390 they sleeping there? 669 00:27:08.569 --> 00:27:08.769 Right. 670 00:27:09.029 --> 00:27:11.049 But he says it really early so that by the 671 00:27:11.109 --> 00:27:14.069 time Bowie comes in at the end, It's a reprise. 672 00:27:14.849 --> 00:27:15.230 Ah, okay. 673 00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:19.299 You're actually, he's actually, what he wrote in that section,' 674 00:27:19.109 --> 00:27:24.519 Cause love's such an old-fashioned. 675 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:28.259 Word and love does. That's fantastic, by the way. 676 00:27:28.900 --> 00:27:31.539 He's actually talking about what you've been hearing the whole song. 677 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:31.920 Yes. 678 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.150 And that, like, it's about people on the margins of 679 00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:39.180 society and it's about... like living and surviving under that pressure. 680

00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:42.380 And he brings it all together in this crazy cascading, 681 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:46.609 ascending melody that doesn't seem to end. Like you think 682 00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:49.289 it's going to end and it doesn't. Love dares you to, 683 00:27:49.569 --> 00:27:52.950 are you done? Care for the. 684 00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:53.529 People on the, are we done? 685 00:27:53.910 --> 00:27:57.319 Edge of the. So we're now at the people at 686 00:27:57.339 --> 00:27:58.440 the edge of the night. We know what they were 687 00:27:58.460 --> 00:28:03.299 singing about in the beginning. And love dares you to care. 688 00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:05.259 You know, it's like, and it just keeps going and 689 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:07.779 it builds up all of this. And so it just 690 00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:10.619 wrecks me every time because it starts so innocuously. 691 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:13.119 Well, I responded to this because I saw that that 692 00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:15.470 was an important song for you. And I have these 693 00:28:15.589 --> 00:28:18.509 lists of songs that I can access when I run, 694 00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:21.609 when I'm like running on a treadmill. And if I 695 00:28:21.710 --> 00:28:24.190 really want to, crank it up and I am done. 696 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:27.309 I mean, I've run for 40 minutes. I'm really tired. 697 00:28:27.369 --> 00:28:31.799 I've been running pretty hard. I will access that song. Yeah. 698 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:35.099 I will access that song on my Spotify and suddenly 699 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:39.180 that song starts and I have superhuman powers. 700 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:39.559 Yeah. 701 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:41.619 Because of that song and it's big. What you're talking about, 702 00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:45.410 that ascending, incessant, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing. And 703 00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:47.440 I've found sometimes I'm like, look down when I'm done, 704 00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:48.880 when the song is over and my heart rate is 705 00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:52.880 like 198. People are resuscitating me with paddles. I don't want. 706 00:28:52.819 --> 00:28:55.440 To give it all to Bowie too, because also Freddie 707 00:28:55.509 --> 00:28:58.509 Mercury singing, why don't we give love one more chance? 708 00:28:58.950 --> 00:29:02.529 Like as if like tomorrow is not coming, there's something 709 00:29:02.589 --> 00:29:05.289 so powerful about that, about the vocalist and that leading 710 00:29:05.369 --> 00:29:08.539 into the final Bowie thesis that is like, it's just 711 00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:11.839 like raw emotion. And then this like, brilliant intellect on 712 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:16.240 this ascending melody that's just, how'd they get there from dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum? Like, 713 00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:19.799 how'd they get from dum-dum-dum to that? It's like a 714 00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:21.720 little symphony in one pop song. 715 00:29:21.940 --> 00:29:22.140 It's crazy. 716 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.019 It's just the beginning part. Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. 717 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:24.680 Yep. 718 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:25.480 Okay! 719 00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:27.099 Have you ever heard the isolated vocals? There's a YouTube 720 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:28.960 of just the isolated vocals, and it just. 721 00:29:29.289 --> 00:29:30.089 Oh, no, I haven't. 722 00:29:30.089 --> 00:29:32.190 It's amazing. You'll be so happy. Okay. 723 00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:33.619 You've heard it? I'm sorry. 724 00:29:33.619 --> 00:29:34.819 I'm jumping in again. 725 00:29:34.819 --> 00:29:35.579 It's amazing. 726 00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:38.279 You're terrible at rapping, and it is amazing. 727 00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:39.640 My two contributions. 728 00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:42.279 Conan's terrible at rapping and those isolated vocals. 729 00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:44.119 Thanks for mentioning that again, Sona. We're going to take 730 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:46.980 a quick break and just make very little money. We'll 731 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.640 be right back. Hey! Okay! 732 00:29:48.859 --> 00:29:50.920 Not every day you meet an Irish legend. 733 00:29:51.099 --> 00:29:52.349 I know what you mean. Who call him? 734 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.730 Leaping vast distances, holding off armies. 735 00:29:55.869 --> 00:29:57.990 Eating tonnes of fresh grass. 736 00:29:58.170 --> 00:29:58.509 What? 737 00:29:58.589 --> 00:30:01.670 Not you or cows. That's one of the reasons Irish 738 00:30:01.710 --> 00:30:05.410 milk is so good. It's famous all over the world. 739 00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:07.269 Legendary. 740 00:30:07.750 --> 00:30:10.829 Ireland's grass and our farmers' commitment to more sustainable actions 741 00:30:11.109 --> 00:30:14.650 help make Irish dairy a true Irish legend. Always look 742 00:30:14.670 --> 00:30:18.009 for the National Dairy Council guarantee. Learn more at ndc.ie. 743 00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:30.099 We're back. Yeah. You know, I think you were worried 744 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.049 about going into under pressure because you thought this is 745 00:30:32.089 --> 00:30:36.390 going to get too intense. And I have found in 746 00:30:36.890 --> 00:30:40.539 my brief time on this earth, very young, that. When 747 00:30:40.579 --> 00:30:42.740 people are talking about something they're passionate about, you always 748 00:30:42.769 --> 00:30:45.650 get good stuff. And it can be, you might think, well, 749 00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:47.130 do we really want to deep dive on this? 750 00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:47.490 No. 751 00:30:47.670 --> 00:30:50.009 But also it's thoughts that I have never really said 752 00:30:50.049 --> 00:30:51.890 out loud. It's the thoughts I've had when I'm listening 753 00:30:51.910 --> 00:30:53.410 to Under Pressure on the Run. Like when I'm like 754 00:30:53.609 --> 00:30:56.019 rewinding and be like, why is this making me cry? 755 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:58.900 Because I think it's

important to examine that. I think 756 00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:01.880 as an artist, it's important to look at the things 757 00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:04.000 you love and like the art that you think is 758 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:06.089 total shit. Being like, why do I hate this so much? 759 00:31:06.769 --> 00:31:09.490 Like I think is, again, if you cultivate that part 760 00:31:09.509 --> 00:31:12.289 of your brain, that's like, you find your own taste. 761 00:31:12.470 --> 00:31:13.230 And I think that's the hardest part. 762 00:31:13.250 --> 00:31:15.089 Here's one of the problems with it is that I 763 00:31:15.170 --> 00:31:19.599 sometimes get too much into watching things I hate to 764 00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:22.740 take it apart and realizing that I'm picking at a scab. 765 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:25.460 You know, the famous hate watching and, hey, let's hate 766 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.039 watch this. Isn't it awful? Isn't it terrible? And then 767 00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:31.420 I do think that if there isn't indeed an afterlife, 768 00:31:31.849 --> 00:31:34.210 the first thing they do is show you how much 769 00:31:34.250 --> 00:31:37.390 of it your life you spent hate watching something. Do 770 00:31:37.410 --> 00:31:39.599 you know what I mean? As like a damning, like 771 00:31:39.619 --> 00:31:43.420 you realize you watch the original Ocean's Eleven 150 times 772 00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:45.900 just because some of the edits are so poor. 773 00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:47.140 Right. 774 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.700 You're like, I know I shouldn't have done that. 775 00:31:50.180 --> 00:31:50.960 I apologize. 776 00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:54.430 But yeah, Frank Sinatra, the reason I, some of the 777 00:31:54.450 --> 00:31:58.049 things fascinate me and my brother Luke is that Frank 778 00:31:58.069 --> 00:32:00.710 Sinatra ran the set and he just wanted to be 779 00:32:00.750 --> 00:32:02.990 done when he was done. And he had, the director 780 00:32:03.009 --> 00:32:05.869 had no power over him. So literally there are moments. 781 00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:08.509 It's all first takes. It's all first takes and there's moments. 782 00:32:08.549 --> 00:32:09.450 It's a good movie. 783 00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:14.400 There's moments where Joey Bishop will say his line out 784 00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:17.019 of order. He'll start to say his line, realize that 785 00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.250 he's saying it in the wrong order. someone else then 786 00:32:19.309 --> 00:32:22.009 says their line, then he re-says his line, and they 787 00:32:22.109 --> 00:32:25.250 kept it in the film. That's great. Because when they 788 00:32:25.289 --> 00:32:29.029 were done, they were like, Frank was like, we're done, 789 00:32:29.069 --> 00:32:31.769 we're out. And then someone was like, well, Frank, we 790 00:32:31.809 --> 00:32:33.430 actually need to- I said we're out. 791 00:32:33.450 --> 00:32:34.130 I know. 792 00:32:34.349 --> 00:32:36.049 Well, you know what's so delicious about that is when 793 00:32:36.089 --> 00:32:38.549 he did Guys and Dolls, Brando knew that about him, 794 00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:41.299 and Brando would fuck up on purpose just to make him, 795 00:32:41.490 --> 00:32:43.440 because he wasn't at the point, he wasn't at Ocean's 796 00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:45.720 Eleven Rat Pack era yet. He was still like- young, 797 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:47.799 skinny Frank, and he had to work within the system. 798 00:32:48.019 --> 00:32:50.279 And Brando's a huge star. And Brando's a huge star. 799 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:52.759 And he wanted to play Sky Masterson, but they gave 800 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:56.039 him Nathan Detroit. So watch the scene when he's like, 801 00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.460 they're trying to do the bet of the cider versus 802 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.619 the strudel. Sinatra wants to kill Brando because Brando's like, 803 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:06.400 I fucked with that guy again. He's like, I don't 804 00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:08.990 remember the line. I'm so sorry, Frank. And Frank is 805 00:33:09.009 --> 00:33:11.869 just like, his eyes are bulging out of his head. 806 00:33:12.329 --> 00:33:12.769 The whole scene. 807 00:33:12.950 --> 00:33:15.049 You know what amazes me about that movie is when 808 00:33:15.069 --> 00:33:18.990 you're watching the great scene, come on, you're rocking the boat. 809 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:19.740 Yeah. 810 00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:22.200 Stubby K. Stubby K, sit down, you're rocking the boat. 811 00:33:22.779 --> 00:33:26.119 And you're watching that. Frank Sinatra is in the background. 812 00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:26.480 I know. 813 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:29.460 When else are you going to see Frank Sinatra in 814 00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:33.680 the background as one of 30 people doing a supporting 815 00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.089 chorus part? And that's one of the things that just 816 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:39.150 blows me away about, that was a moment in time 817 00:33:39.170 --> 00:33:41.730 when you could put Frank Sinatra, who was a huge star. 818 00:33:41.750 --> 00:33:41.829 Yeah. 819 00:33:42.130 --> 00:33:45.309 But because Brando's in the film and everyone needs to 820 00:33:45.349 --> 00:33:49.349 service this incredible musical, he gets stuck. Hey, Frank, you're 821 00:33:49.369 --> 00:33:51.069 in the background and you're just playing support. 822 00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:52.829 For kids who have no idea what the fuck we're 823 00:33:52.869 --> 00:33:55.619 talking about, it's like that one scene in Endgame where 824 00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:58.519 they're all standing there. You're like, holy cow, this is 825 00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.460 an expensive scene for them all to be in frame. 826 00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:03.880 These are all big stars in their own right. And 827 00:34:03.900 --> 00:34:07.240 there's Frank Sinatra just like sitting up and. Sitting and 828 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:08.880 standing in time. 829 00:34:09.360 -->

00:34:10.420 And for those of you who don't know who Frank 830 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:15.960 Sinatra is, you know there's a Pikachu. Help me out here. 831 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:16.679 How do I get this? 832 00:34:16.889 --> 00:34:17.260 Squirtle. 833 00:34:17.449 --> 00:34:17.760 Squirtle. 834 00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:19.670 Are you talking about Detective Pikachu? 835 00:34:20.090 --> 00:34:20.929 Sure, yeah. 836 00:34:21.250 --> 00:34:21.889 Oh. Sure. 837 00:34:21.929 --> 00:34:25.030 And you're using that to tell people about Frank Sinatra. 838 00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:28.690 I'm trying to, as Lin-Manuel is doing, I'm trying to 839 00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:29.909 bring it into the- Just say he was famous. 840 00:34:29.929 --> 00:34:30.280 He's a famous guy. 841 00:34:30.289 --> 00:34:32.650 You know, in Fortnite, you know, when you're in the 842 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:34.650 hang glider and you've got the machine gun. 843 00:34:34.670 --> 00:34:34.769 Stop. 844 00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:36.949 That's sort of Frank Sinatra. 845 00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:43.179 Detective Pikachu is basically the man with the golden arm. 846 00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:47.579 Let's break down most 20th century pop culture this way. 847 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:52.880 So I had the pleasure of talking to Michelle Obama 848 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:56.429 a couple of times and recently she was on the 849 00:34:56.449 --> 00:35:00.329 podcast and I just love this moment I asked her 850 00:35:00.369 --> 00:35:01.889 about it. I don't think we talked about it on 851 00:35:01.909 --> 00:35:04.849 the podcast, but when you performed at the White House 852 00:35:04.889 --> 00:35:06.869 and you performed, you were working on Hamilton and you 853 00:35:06.909 --> 00:35:10.210 performed for the Obamas. And she said, now, what is 854 00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:13.280 this about? And you pretty much said, well, it's a 855 00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:18.880 rap musical multicultural exploration of Ron Chernow's Hamilton book. I 856 00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:20.500 don't think I said it like that. You didn't say 857 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:22.219 it like that. I'm putting a little mustard on the ball. 858 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.389 But you said that and she was like, yeah, good 859 00:35:24.449 --> 00:35:28.469 luck with that. And I just, I love you pitching 860 00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:32.969 it to the coolest couple in America and they're like, okay, 861 00:35:33.250 --> 00:35:36.489 good luck. And I love too that you had to, 862 00:35:36.989 --> 00:35:38.670 when you announced what it was, people thought it was 863 00:35:38.730 --> 00:35:41.000 a joke and you had to say, Please just hear 864 00:35:41.019 --> 00:35:41.320 me out. 865 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.079 You hear, I mean, the 10th anniversary of me performing 866 00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:45.880 that was like on Sunday. So a lot of people 867 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:49.739 posted it online and I watched it again recently. I 868 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.280 don't think there is more footage of you being frightened 869 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:54.639 or footage of me being more frightened than I was 870 00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:56.780 in that moment. Cause you see me introduce it. Everyone 871 00:35:56.820 --> 00:35:58.949 laughs and I scream, you. 872 00:35:58.829 --> 00:36:00.110 Laugh, but it's true. 873 00:36:00.130 --> 00:36:06.300 In a Milhousian voice. And I'm suddenly like, I really, 874 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:09.019 the whole time I'm performing it, I'm looking around for 875 00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:11.760 like the Apollo Sandman to sweep me off the stage. 876 00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:15.320 I had never performed that song in public. Only my 877 00:36:15.380 --> 00:36:18.039 wife and Alex Lacamoire, my accompanist, had heard the song. 878 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.179 But I also thought, if it doesn't work in this room, 879 00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:23.239 I'll like put it in a drawer and I'll try 880 00:36:23.260 --> 00:36:23.699 something else. 881 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.829 Who tries something out for the first time in front 882 00:36:26.969 --> 00:36:28.550 of the president and the first lady? 883 00:36:28.849 --> 00:36:29.670 Who does that? 884 00:36:30.489 --> 00:36:36.289 Conrad Birdie. Yeah. It was also, they said, we'd love 885 00:36:36.309 --> 00:36:37.949 for you to perform something from In the Heights, which 886 00:36:38.010 --> 00:36:39.909 is my first show. I said, unless you have something 887 00:36:39.949 --> 00:36:44.260 on the American experience. And I did. So I was like, 888 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.039 I mean, if these 16 bars about Alexander Hamilton don't 889 00:36:47.059 --> 00:36:50.780 work here, and really that's all it was, then maybe 890 00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:52.809 this is dumb. Maybe this is a dumb idea. But 891 00:36:52.869 --> 00:36:54.269 I thought they worked. I thought they were some of 892 00:36:54.309 --> 00:36:54.949 my best writing. 893 00:36:55.130 --> 00:36:55.340 And I. 894 00:36:56.190 --> 00:36:57.710 Just needed to get out in front of it and 895 00:36:57.849 --> 00:37:00.610 try it. And then it worked really well. 896 00:37:00.949 --> 00:37:05.139 So you left that room knowing, okay, I've got it. Yeah. 897 00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:08.760 It really, I mean, basically what has happened with the 898 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:11.860 show happened in miniature in that room. It went like, oh, 899 00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:17.460 my God, this kid's crazy, too. like, rapt attention on 900 00:37:17.500 --> 00:37:20.059 the story because the story is compelling. You know, it 901 00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:22.460 doesn't need mustard on the ball for me to be compelling, 902 00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:24.559 but it's like, oh, I didn't know all that happened 903 00:37:24.579 --> 00:37:26.800 to Alexander Hamilton. Oh, you're the guy who shot him 904 00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:31.199 and you're in. And so I watched that happen in miniature. 905 00:37:31.619 -->

00:37:32.949 And what's, you know, this is a part of the 906 00:37:32.969 --> 00:37:35.219 story I don't tell often, but then like, I got 907 00:37:35.260 --> 00:37:36.909 made fun of on The Daily Show the next day. 908 00:37:37.010 --> 00:37:37.150 Yeah. 909 00:37:37.449 --> 00:37:39.360 Like Jon Stewart was like, did like a bit about 910 00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:42.079 like spoken word poetry. And he did the like, you know, 911 00:37:42.099 --> 00:37:44.679 like that. And like, just like, and like, it was 912 00:37:44.699 --> 00:37:47.239 the first, you know, I love The Daily Show. And 913 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:48.900 it was the first time I've been on the other 914 00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:51.690 side of a clip where they, they literally showed me going, 915 00:37:51.949 --> 00:37:55.219 my name is Alexander Hamilton. And they cut to. Jon 916 00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:59.039 Stewart and like enormous laughter. So like the laughter part 917 00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:00.139 of it got amplified. 918 00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:01.369 That clip should be burned. 919 00:38:02.449 --> 00:38:04.889 He's very apologetic after he saw the show many, many 920 00:38:04.929 --> 00:38:07.510 years later, but it was also, but I knew what 921 00:38:07.969 --> 00:38:10.409 happened in the room. So that didn't deter me. Like I, 922 00:38:10.949 --> 00:38:13.610 it hurt to be a punchline on TV, but I 923 00:38:13.650 --> 00:38:16.159 was like, I know what the song did in the room. 924 00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:17.960 I know what that chemical reaction was. 925 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:18.159 Yes. 926 00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:20.320 And that was enough to keep me writing. You know, 927 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:23.219 that was the performance at the White House was such 928 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.849 a rare case of like, I'd only written that one song. 929 00:38:26.110 --> 00:38:28.530 I didn't have a second Hamilton song to show anyone. 930 00:38:28.550 --> 00:38:32.329 It was just that opportunity happened and I presented it 931 00:38:32.389 --> 00:38:36.869 at that opportunity. But, you know, to continue writing, it was, again, 932 00:38:37.050 --> 00:38:39.070 you're trying to please the room you're in and you're 933 00:38:39.090 --> 00:38:40.630 trying to make sure it feels good in that room 934 00:38:40.690 --> 00:38:44.199 because you can't, anticipate what the world's going to have 935 00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:44.920 no control over that. 936 00:38:45.099 --> 00:38:46.739 I have, I think this is hard for people to 937 00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:51.559 understand sometimes, but what you can't be thinking about when 938 00:38:51.579 --> 00:38:56.590 you're creating Hamilton or you're creating anything, you just have to, 939 00:38:57.130 --> 00:39:00.150 if you get into that space of making that thing, 940 00:39:01.010 --> 00:39:04.690 you cannot lose your mind over how is this going 941 00:39:04.750 --> 00:39:07.309 to look on a, on a billboard in time square? 942 00:39:07.329 --> 00:39:09.949 How is this going to look, you know, how, how 943 00:39:09.989 --> 00:39:14.159 is this going to look when it's blown up? you know, 150,000 times, 944 00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.940 you have to just stay in the thing. And now 945 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:18.659 I sound like David Mamet, but you have to stay 946 00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:19.039 in the. 947 00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:20.210 Thing and just do it. 948 00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:24.530 And the only stuff, that's all I've ever done is 949 00:39:24.550 --> 00:39:27.230 just get in a little space, make something, and then 950 00:39:27.289 --> 00:39:29.909 later on, it's an abstraction that no, no, no, I 951 00:39:29.949 --> 00:39:32.969 got people saw it on YouTube, people saw it on television, 952 00:39:32.989 --> 00:39:34.730 people saw it wherever they saw it, they saw it 953 00:39:34.769 --> 00:39:36.800 in China, they saw it someplace, and they liked it. 954 00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:40.070 That's an abstraction. You have to just stick into that 955 00:39:40.389 --> 00:39:40.780 in that thing. 956 00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:42.219 And I think a lot of people, a lot of 957 00:39:42.260 --> 00:39:45.519 young people who say would be very influenced by you, 958 00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:48.719 they sometimes put the I want to be famous first, right? 959 00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:51.230 And if that's the goal, I'm sure you've had many 960 00:39:51.269 --> 00:39:55.809 people say that to you. They're interested in the fame part. 961 00:39:55.829 --> 00:39:57.809 They're interested in what they see that you got. And 962 00:39:57.829 --> 00:40:01.159 they don't realize that you started from this very insular 963 00:40:01.219 --> 00:40:01.840 small place. 964 00:40:01.900 --> 00:40:02.099 Yeah. 965 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:03.199 And that was not the goal. 966 00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:07.420 Yeah, no, absolutely. And do you also, listen, musicals just 967 00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:10.039 take too fucking long. Like if you want to get famous, 968 00:40:10.059 --> 00:40:14.280 like don't write musicals. That's a bad return on your investment. 969 00:40:14.530 --> 00:40:17.170 They take about five to seven years and one in 970 00:40:17.250 --> 00:40:18.230 five make their money back. 971 00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:18.659 Yeah. 972 00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:20.719 Maybe that's probably a high figure. 973 00:40:20.739 --> 00:40:21.389 That seems very high. 974 00:40:21.409 --> 00:40:22.260 That's probably generous. 975 00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:22.949 Yeah. 976 00:40:23.030 --> 00:40:24.769 So you have to be okay with this thing closing 977 00:40:24.789 --> 00:40:27.090 on opening night. You have to be okay enough with 978 00:40:27.150 --> 00:40:28.989 what you're making that you're like, all right, if this 979 00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:31.449 closes opening night, I got better at what I know 980 00:40:31.510 --> 00:40:33.780 how to do. I'm really proud of what we made. 981 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.480 I learned something like

you have to have reasons that are, 982 00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:39.699 because you have no control over the rest of it. 983 00:40:39.699 --> 00:40:41.659 You can only have control over the thing you are creating. 984 00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:46.449 One of the, sort of main messages or ideas behind 985 00:40:46.530 --> 00:40:49.530 Hamilton is the legacy of what you leave behind. And 986 00:40:49.690 --> 00:40:51.889 that's clearly something that resonates with you. 987 00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:58.190 No New Year's Day. 988 00:40:58.289 --> 00:41:02.110 You actually did jam that into Hamilton. And then you 989 00:41:02.130 --> 00:41:05.920 got into some copyright issues. It was good that they 990 00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:09.480 got involved and they took it out. And Under Pressure 991 00:41:09.579 --> 00:41:12.690 was in Hamilton for a while. Remember when Hamilton was 992 00:41:12.730 --> 00:41:15.010 under all that pressure to form a centralized bank? 993 00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:15.849 And then he went. 994 00:41:15.889 --> 00:41:22.519 Yeah, I replaced that with nonstop. But yeah, I do 995 00:41:22.579 --> 00:41:26.940 think something about... This sounds quaint sometimes when you try 996 00:41:26.980 --> 00:41:28.719 and talk about it, but I've always been obsessed with 997 00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:31.849 having a body of work. Like, here's some stuff I 998 00:41:31.909 --> 00:41:35.570 made that's mine. And I think I can honestly say 999 00:41:35.610 --> 00:41:38.769 that's all I ever wanted. It's nice to be able 1000 00:41:38.829 --> 00:41:41.280 to have people in a restaurant say, you look taller 1001 00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:45.039 in person, you know, I guess, and, and get a reservation. 1002 00:41:45.579 --> 00:41:50.099 But most of it, the gravy is that it's just gravy. It, 1003 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.500 it isn't, it is the having a body of work. 1004 00:41:53.539 --> 00:41:56.300 And I, I get the sense from you that that 1005 00:41:56.380 --> 00:42:00.559 is your religion almost is to make this stuff and 1006 00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:02.449 make it and craft it and make it just the way. 1007 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.909 And then, Know that it's out there and that must 1008 00:42:04.929 --> 00:42:08.789 give you immense, I don't know, just satisfaction. 1009 00:42:09.030 --> 00:42:13.070 Yeah, it does. And it's it's funny because it is 1010 00:42:13.130 --> 00:42:15.530 very that part is so nice. You always want to 1011 00:42:15.550 --> 00:42:17.429 fast forward to that part where like fast forward to 1012 00:42:17.449 --> 00:42:19.389 the part where like I made the thing. Here's the thing. 1013 00:42:19.489 --> 00:42:24.030 But my wife was much smarter than me. always reminds 1014 00:42:24.050 --> 00:42:27.090 me you're happiest when you've just finished writing. 1015 00:42:27.130 --> 00:42:27.590 Yes. 1016 00:42:27.889 --> 00:42:31.349 It's not actually when you're on stage. It's actually when 1017 00:42:31.489 --> 00:42:33.389 you come into the room from the other room being like, 1018 00:42:33.670 --> 00:42:36.380 listen to this and nothing can happen until my wife 1019 00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:38.179 listens to, you know, like I need you to listen 1020 00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:40.920 to this. It's done. And it's done. And that's the 1021 00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:43.260 best feeling. And that's the hardest one to hold onto 1022 00:42:43.300 --> 00:42:47.809 when you've just, created a thing. And in the middle 1023 00:42:47.849 --> 00:42:50.730 of it, in working it out, whether it's a song 1024 00:42:50.829 --> 00:42:54.010 or whether it's a scene or whether it's an act, 1025 00:42:54.579 --> 00:42:57.599 you know, the actual making of it is the best 1026 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:01.179 part of it. Um, and, and holding onto that, because 1027 00:43:01.219 --> 00:43:03.590 I think one of the themes of Hamilton with regards 1028 00:43:03.610 --> 00:43:07.030 to legacy is that you don't even control that, you know, uh, 1029 00:43:07.809 --> 00:43:12.110 every single one of Hamilton's enemies became president. It was, 1030 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.940 it was, you know, it was Jefferson. Uh, then it 1031 00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:17.789 was Madison. That was John Quincy Adams. Uh, oh no, 1032 00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:19.940 it's James Monroe who he almost got into a duel with. 1033 00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:23.440 He thought James Monroe leaked, uh, the Reynolds papers. And 1034 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.659 then John Quincy Adams, the son of the beloved John Adams. 1035 00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:30.619 So it was, that's four people who are just not 1036 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:32.980 either going to talk shit about him or not talk 1037 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.760 about him at all. And so even though he accomplished 1038 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:38.639 all this stuff, you know, he is, he was, when 1039 00:43:38.780 --> 00:43:40.750 I picked up that, you know, it's different now, but 1040 00:43:40.769 --> 00:43:42.750 when I picked up that biography, all I knew was 1041 00:43:42.769 --> 00:43:46.170 that he died in a duel and he's on the 10. 1042 00:43:46.170 --> 00:43:47.469 I didn't know any of that other stuff. 1043 00:43:47.849 --> 00:43:50.869 What's fascinating to me, and I'm an American history buff 1044 00:43:50.909 --> 00:43:57.539 and I, had read about Hamilton prior to the musical. 1045 00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:02.619 And I had actually seen his, is it in Nevis? 1046 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:05.719 I had been to Nevis and dragged. Yeah. 1047 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:07.849 The house with the sign that says. 1048 00:44:07.869 --> 00:44:10.090 Yes. My girlfriend at the time to, to like, we've 1049 00:44:10.110 --> 00:44:11.650 got to go see Alexander Hamilton's home. 1050 00:44:11.690 --> 00:44:13.789 And she had the appropriate response. 1051 00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:16.429 Or we could go to the beach. 1052 00:44:16.530 --> 00:44:17.110 Yeah. 1053 00:44:17.130 --> 00:44:18.210 Do they serve drinks there?

1054 00:44:18.230 --> 00:44:18.670 Yeah. 1055 00:44:19.489 --> 00:44:23.320 And, uh, they did not. Uh, but I was aware 1056 00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:27.860 of him, but what's interesting is that you have single handedly, 1057 00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:30.380 I think I was somewhere and there was like a 1058 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:33.440 statue of Alexander Hamilton and people were gathered around it. 1059 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:36.090 Like it was a statue of it, you know, it 1060 00:44:36.110 --> 00:44:37.730 was here in New York and there's a, somewhere there's 1061 00:44:37.769 --> 00:44:40.329 a statue or obelisk has eggs on Hamilton's name on it. 1062 00:44:40.349 --> 00:44:44.369 And people were gathered around it, taking pictures and stuff. 1063 00:44:44.409 --> 00:44:50.929 And I thought this didn't happen before, uh, Hamilton, the musical. 1064 00:44:51.030 --> 00:44:55.170 It didn't happen. It's in one fell stroke. And I 1065 00:44:55.230 --> 00:44:59.340 don't think, I mean, Revenge is a dish best served cold, 1066 00:44:59.380 --> 00:45:01.019 but you think about all of his enemies, and I 1067 00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:03.800 don't think there's going to be any smash hit musicals 1068 00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:04.260 about them. 1069 00:45:04.699 --> 00:45:07.159 Well, there have been two musicals about Ben Franklin. That's 1070 00:45:07.179 --> 00:45:08.420 why I didn't put him in. I was like, he's 1071 00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:12.820 had his time. There's a musical about Jefferson, I believe. 1072 00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:15.119 1776 exists. 1073 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:15.699 1776, yeah. 1074 00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:20.380 Yeah. So, you know, they've all had at-bats. 1075 00:45:20.420 --> 00:45:21.920 Yeah, they've had at-bats, yeah. 1076 00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:22.280 Yeah. 1077 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:22.719 Sorry. 1078 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:27.989 But it's, I think what that speaks to is the 1079 00:45:28.030 --> 00:45:30.869 way art sort of makes us empathize in a totally 1080 00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:34.510 different way. The moving thing to me is that Angelica 1081 00:45:35.210 --> 00:45:39.170 Schuyler Church's gravestone, which was like unmarked at Trinity Church, 1082 00:45:39.349 --> 00:45:42.570 is now marked because we mentioned it in the finale episode. 1083 00:45:43.190 --> 00:45:44.550 of the thing. And people, I think a lot of 1084 00:45:44.570 --> 00:45:46.010 people were showing up to Trinity church being like, well, 1085 00:45:46.030 --> 00:45:50.809 where's Angelica's headstone. Um, and that's a detail I only 1086 00:45:50.849 --> 00:45:54.739 knew from Ron's book. And I, that's the line that makes, 1087 00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:57.260 that made me cry when I was writing it. I mean, 1088 00:45:57.380 --> 00:45:59.280 here's like, there are people who cry at the end 1089 00:45:59.300 --> 00:46:03.400 of that finale. It's pretty fucking relentless, but no one 1090 00:46:03.460 --> 00:46:05.559 cried harder than me as I was writing it. Cause 1091 00:46:05.579 --> 00:46:08.849 I was just taking facts from like the last chapter 1092 00:46:08.909 --> 00:46:12.739 of Chernow's book and be like, yeah, And my wife, 1093 00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:15.539 who is a scientist and lawyer, was just sort of 1094 00:46:15.659 --> 00:46:17.960 looking at me like, do you want water or something? 1095 00:46:17.980 --> 00:46:19.699 I was like, no, this is how it has to 1096 00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.039 come out. Like, I was in labor. Like, and my 1097 00:46:22.059 --> 00:46:26.860 dog is like. And I'm like, and then she's buried 1098 00:46:26.949 --> 00:46:30.610 next to him. But she was never with him. 1099 00:46:30.789 --> 00:46:32.329 Wow, you write out loud. 1100 00:46:32.449 --> 00:46:34.349 It's a lot of ugly cry to get you to 1101 00:46:34.429 --> 00:46:34.690 ugly cry. 1102 00:46:34.710 --> 00:46:34.789 Okay. 1103 00:46:40.449 --> 00:46:40.829 Wow. 1104 00:46:40.969 --> 00:46:44.800 Well, God bless these people in our lives that help 1105 00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:49.880 us out. My wife is fantastic at constantly reminding me 1106 00:46:49.940 --> 00:46:53.380 how my machine works and occasionally doesn't work and just 1107 00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:58.409 very– when I'm getting– Intent, she's like, uh-huh, yeah, this 1108 00:46:58.429 --> 00:47:00.710 is what you do. Yeah, this is what you do. Well, 1109 00:47:00.730 --> 00:47:02.860 you just finished, you know, you're about to go back 1110 00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:04.940 to work, so you're making yourself hate yourself so you 1111 00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.300 can generate that. That's just that thing that you do. Yeah, 1112 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:11.420 and it was just, yeah, exactly. And it's very helpful 1113 00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:15.070 to have someone say, I've read the warranty for the 1114 00:47:15.170 --> 00:47:16.909 Conan or the Conan product. 1115 00:47:16.989 --> 00:47:18.469 I'm the one who read the instruction manual. 1116 00:47:18.630 --> 00:47:20.630 I have the instruction manual. It says right here that 1117 00:47:20.650 --> 00:47:22.570 this is what you do in these situations. 1118 00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:23.250 And I go, okay. 1119 00:47:24.030 --> 00:47:24.489 Oh yeah. 1120 00:47:24.550 --> 00:47:24.750 Yeah. 1121 00:47:24.849 --> 00:47:26.550 My wife is like, you can stop having that argument 1122 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:29.239 in your head and just go on to the next thing. 1123 00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:31.820 Now I met you a couple of times now and 1124 00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:37.139 you're such a genuinely nice person and you have everything 1125 00:47:37.179 --> 00:47:41.619 in perspective. There had to be on some level, the success, 1126 00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:46.960 the insane success of Hamilton. Did that put you back 1127 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:48.719 on your heels a little bit? Like, do you know 1128 00:47:48.739 --> 00:47:53.460 what I mean? Uh, Because there was this period of 1129 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:55.119 time

that I think is still ongoing where people are like, 1130 00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:58.619 oh my God, and bowing down in a way that 1131 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:03.550 is beautiful, but... For an egomaniacal freak, it would seem like, well, 1132 00:48:03.570 --> 00:48:06.239 of course, this is what I deserve. But for you, 1133 00:48:06.530 --> 00:48:09.000 does any of it get to be difficult or strange 1134 00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:09.780 to handle? 1135 00:48:09.980 --> 00:48:13.079 I had a couple of very unique advantages. Tommy Kail 1136 00:48:13.099 --> 00:48:14.940 will joke to you, Lynn has been famous in his 1137 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.559 own mind his entire life, and everyone else has just 1138 00:48:17.579 --> 00:48:19.989 caught up. That's his joke on it, and it's only 1139 00:48:20.260 --> 00:48:22.150 partly true, like really since Conrad Byrd, yeah. 1140 00:48:22.750 --> 00:48:23.710 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1141 00:48:24.010 --> 00:48:28.150 But also, I think that because it happened, by the 1142 00:48:28.190 --> 00:48:30.469 time it happened, I was like, married and with a 1143 00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:32.409 kid and pretty much knew who I was. Like if 1144 00:48:32.449 --> 00:48:36.480 this had happened on my first show, um, you know, 1145 00:48:36.579 --> 00:48:38.940 in my twenties, I don't know that I would, but 1146 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.139 I already, I already knew what I wanted to be 1147 00:48:41.179 --> 00:48:44.070 doing with my life. Um, and so when you know 1148 00:48:44.110 --> 00:48:47.250 that the crazy offers and the crazy things that come 1149 00:48:47.309 --> 00:48:49.829 at you, when that level of success happens, I have 1150 00:48:49.869 --> 00:48:52.590 like a filter and a support system that knows like, well, 1151 00:48:52.610 --> 00:48:54.510 you don't want to do that. It sounds crazy. And 1152 00:48:54.510 --> 00:48:56.469 12 year old, you might've wanted to do that or 1153 00:48:56.469 --> 00:48:58.780 22 year old, you might've wanted to do that. But 1154 00:48:59.449 --> 00:49:01.590 you know that's that's not going to help you with 1155 00:49:01.650 --> 00:49:04.010 what you're doing like you're writing you're like the disney 1156 00:49:04.050 --> 00:49:06.090 songs right now and you want to start writing your 1157 00:49:06.130 --> 00:49:08.730 next show and you want to survive this year of 1158 00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:11.309 seven shows a week yeah um is that going to 1159 00:49:11.329 --> 00:49:14.690 help you um and so and so i think one 1160 00:49:14.750 --> 00:49:17.190 thing was actually doing a show seven shows a week 1161 00:49:17.289 --> 00:49:19.590 you can't go out every night i couldn't go and 1162 00:49:19.849 --> 00:49:21.539 say yes to half of the offers that were coming 1163 00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.519 because I had a two show day the next day. 1164 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.369 So that kept me humble and grounded. Like literally your 1165 00:49:26.429 --> 00:49:28.550 focus is so much on your health when you're doing 1166 00:49:28.590 --> 00:49:31.949 a Broadway run. And to like, I know who I 1167 00:49:32.210 --> 00:49:34.269 knew who I was and I have friends around me 1168 00:49:34.289 --> 00:49:36.460 who know who I am. Like I remember coming home 1169 00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:38.780 from a meeting with a pretty famous director who wanted 1170 00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:41.179 to direct me in a Super Bowl commercial that year 1171 00:49:41.260 --> 00:49:45.380 in 2016. And it was a car commercial. And the 1172 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:48.019 pitch was like, you're getting out of the Rogers and 1173 00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:50.079 you throw your jacket over your shoulder and you get 1174 00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:55.030 into this brand name car and drive off. And I 1175 00:49:55.389 --> 00:49:56.650 sort of said it to my wife and I told 1176 00:49:56.690 --> 00:49:58.170 her who the director was who pitched it to me. 1177 00:49:58.210 --> 00:50:01.110 And she was like, Lynn, you have a car. 1178 00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:05.239 You don't know how to drive. 1179 00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:07.179 Yeah, I'm one of the rare city kids who actually 1180 00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:09.690 does have their license. But I was like, yeah, I 1181 00:50:09.690 --> 00:50:11.269 don't have a car. I'm not going to do that commercial. 1182 00:50:11.429 --> 00:50:11.750 Yeah. 1183 00:50:11.829 --> 00:50:14.329 I'm not going to do that Super Bowl commercial. I 1184 00:50:14.349 --> 00:50:15.050 would laugh at me. 1185 00:50:15.570 --> 00:50:15.809 Yes. 1186 00:50:15.829 --> 00:50:20.150 I read somewhere that you like to compare yourself at 1187 00:50:20.190 --> 00:50:23.199 your age to what other people accomplished at the same age. 1188 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:26.239 I think that's an affliction many of us share. 1189 00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:26.719 Yes. 1190 00:50:26.980 --> 00:50:30.840 And I had this crazy– it occurred to me because 1191 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:34.239 I'm a big Lincoln buff– And you always think of 1192 00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:38.139 Lincoln dying as like this old, he's old Lincoln. He's, 1193 00:50:38.179 --> 00:50:42.809 you know, he's the, he's the aging, uh, wizened, wrinkled bearded, 1194 00:50:42.829 --> 00:50:46.550 you know, uh, and he's, and, uh, I just turned 1195 00:50:46.590 --> 00:50:49.239 in April the same age that Lincoln was when he died. 1196 00:50:49.260 --> 00:50:50.500 How old was he when he died? 1197 00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:52.760 He was 56. Oh, wow. And I was like, what? 1198 00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:53.579 How is that? 1199 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:57.920 No, he was, I'm the young, sprightly, carrot-topped quickster of 1200 00:50:58.019 --> 00:51:00.900 late night. I'm the sprite. 1201 00:51:01.659 --> 00:51:03.880 I'm the laughing. 1202 00:51:03.320 --> 00:51:10.010 Leprechaun of late night. And suddenly I'm like, no. You're 1203 00:51:10.190 --> 00:51:11.949 old man Lincoln of comedy. 1204 00:51:11.989 --> 00:51:16.750 Well, as someone

who grew up Catholic, I mean, there's constantly, 1205 00:51:16.969 --> 00:51:18.590 like when you hit 33, you were like, oh shit. 1206 00:51:18.969 --> 00:51:19.190 Yeah. 1207 00:51:19.349 --> 00:51:19.809 Jesus year. 1208 00:51:20.570 --> 00:51:22.389 Jesus, that's the year. That's the year. 1209 00:51:22.449 --> 00:51:24.780 That's the Jesus year. Can I outlast the Jesus year? 1210 00:51:24.989 --> 00:51:25.800 Yeah. 1211 00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:28.500 For me, it was like 27, the 27 club. Like, 1212 00:51:28.820 --> 00:51:31.320 it's sort of like, I have like mile markers of 1213 00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.159 like when people died who like accomplished incredible things. The 1214 00:51:34.179 --> 00:51:37.559 Beatles like, Quit. before they were 30. They did everything 1215 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:38.860 they did before they were 30. Yeah. 1216 00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:41.210 So it's like, we're all fucked. Like, none of us 1217 00:51:41.230 --> 00:51:42.590 can match up to that. Well, the Beatles ruin it 1218 00:51:42.610 --> 00:51:43.250 for everybody. 1219 00:51:43.329 --> 00:51:43.570 Yes. 1220 00:51:43.590 --> 00:51:45.769 The Beatles fuck up the curve so bad. 1221 00:51:45.789 --> 00:51:46.329 Yeah. 1222 00:51:46.550 --> 00:51:48.829 If you're going for like, you know, maybe I'm doing 1223 00:51:48.849 --> 00:51:49.150 my best. 1224 00:51:49.190 --> 00:51:49.489 No, no, no. 1225 00:51:49.510 --> 00:51:49.750 They were. 1226 00:51:49.769 --> 00:51:51.250 Don't compare yourself to the Beatles. 1227 00:51:51.269 --> 00:51:51.489 Yes. 1228 00:51:51.530 --> 00:51:52.179 Way Life's Madness. 1229 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:52.510 Yeah. 1230 00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:53.920 But there were four of them. 1231 00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:57.239 And you've now done that for other people because now 1232 00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.239 other people are going to be like, I didn't. Lin-Manuel Miranda, 1233 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:02.380 Raymond Hamilton, when he was, you know, I haven't done 1234 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:02.570 that yet. 1235 00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:04.599 And Andrew Lloyd Webber had written three musicals by the 1236 00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:05.699 time he was 21. 1237 00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:05.949 Right. 1238 00:52:06.429 --> 00:52:07.550 Again, fucked up the curve. 1239 00:52:07.630 --> 00:52:09.730 Most serial killers have done their best work. 1240 00:52:09.809 --> 00:52:10.429 Oh, my God. 1241 00:52:10.489 --> 00:52:11.510 Well, they do before they're 35. 1242 00:52:11.510 --> 00:52:12.130 Oh, my God. 1243 00:52:12.170 --> 00:52:14.909 It's a young man's game. Oh, God. It's a young 1244 00:52:14.989 --> 00:52:20.570 man's game. It's different. I just was so delighted when 1245 00:52:20.590 --> 00:52:24.849 you said that you were up for doing this podcast 1246 00:52:25.050 --> 00:52:27.989 because it's a very different format from the show. I 1247 00:52:28.010 --> 00:52:30.280 didn't know when I got into doing a podcast what 1248 00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:33.099 it was I would be able to explore or how 1249 00:52:33.139 --> 00:52:35.550 is this going to be different than television? And you're 1250 00:52:35.570 --> 00:52:40.760 the perfect example of why I'm delighted to fly to 1251 00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:42.739 New York and sit in a studio and get a 1252 00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:47.400 chance to just go down the mine shaft and experience 1253 00:52:48.579 --> 00:52:53.739 your remarkable brain firsthand over a nice, quiet period of time. 1254 00:52:54.099 --> 00:52:54.960 It's a thrill for me. 1255 00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:58.300 Oh, thank you. Likewise. I'm such a longtime fan of yours, 1256 00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.860 and it's a dream to get to talk to you 1257 00:53:00.929 --> 00:53:01.909 for real, for real. 1258 00:53:01.949 --> 00:53:05.510 You did something so sweet. I have a hard time 1259 00:53:05.929 --> 00:53:09.659 ever accepting that I've done anything. That's my default setting. 1260 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:14.449 And when I saw Hamilton at the end, at the 1261 00:53:14.530 --> 00:53:18.179 curtain call, I never think people can see me and 1262 00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:19.219 you saw me. 1263 00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:20.360 You're very tall. 1264 00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:21.679 Yeah, I'm very tall. I forget that. 1265 00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:24.519 And you did the quick little string dance that I, 1266 00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:27.079 you know, do where I pretend I have invisible strings. 1267 00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:30.320 You did that for me, looking right at me. And I, 1268 00:53:31.250 --> 00:53:33.809 I couldn't believe it. I just, cause I had just 1269 00:53:33.849 --> 00:53:36.909 had this remarkable experience seeing Hamilton for the first time. 1270 00:53:36.969 --> 00:53:38.789 And then you saw me and you did this little 1271 00:53:38.849 --> 00:53:42.059 thing and it got, it just, it was such a sweet. 1272 00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:45.429 Well, isn't live theater the fucking best? It is. Because 1273 00:53:45.449 --> 00:53:46.949 that could not have happened if I'd made a TV 1274 00:53:47.010 --> 00:53:49.340 show and then just reached out and did the string 1275 00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:49.780 dance for you. 1276 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:52.000 You could have. You could have made everyone endure that 1277 00:53:52.019 --> 00:53:54.920 just because you knew that I'd be watching it. And 1278 00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:58.090 I'm such an egomaniac that I think that would be appropriate. 1279 00:53:59.210 --> 00:54:01.489 Then Hamilton the movie, it should end with a string 1280 00:54:01.510 --> 00:54:03.820 dance because you know that I'll be in one of 1281 00:54:03.860 --> 00:54:07.880 the theaters seeing it. Well, God bless you. Thank you 1282 00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:10.840 for everything on behalf of everybody in the world who 1283 00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:11.519 likes goodness. 1284 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:12.000 Thank you. 1285 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:13.840 Thank you, Conan. Dream comes true

talking to you. 1286 00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:16.119 Not every day you meet an Irish legend. 1287 00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:17.619 I know what you mean, Coo Column. 1288 00:54:17.900 --> 00:54:21.000 Leaping vast distances, holding off armies. 1289 00:54:21.139 --> 00:54:23.260 Eating tonnes of fresh grass. 1290 00:54:23.420 --> 00:54:23.760 What? 1291 00:54:23.860 --> 00:54:25.139 Not you or cows. 1292 00:54:25.429 --> 00:54:28.289 That's one of the reasons Irish milk is so good. 1293 00:54:28.530 --> 00:54:30.650 It's famous all over the world. 1294 00:54:30.949 --> 00:54:32.570 Legendary. 1295 00:54:33.010 --> 00:54:36.090 Ireland's grass and our farmers' commitment to more sustainable actions 1296 00:54:36.369 --> 00:54:39.909 help make Irish dairy a true Irish legend. Always look 1297 00:54:39.929 --> 00:54:43.380 for the National Dairy Council guarantee. Learn more at ndc.ie. 1298 00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:53.070 MUSIC I should mention that for quite a while now, 1299 00:54:53.210 --> 00:54:56.280 Matt Gourley has been on hiatus. You've been on vacation. 1300 00:54:56.300 --> 00:54:56.900 Where'd you go, Matt? 1301 00:54:57.179 --> 00:54:58.440 I went to Thailand for a wedding. 1302 00:54:58.699 --> 00:54:58.980 Yeah. 1303 00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:02.599 We taped some great podcasts while you were gone. 1304 00:55:02.739 --> 00:55:05.929 I missed. I was so sad to miss, especially your heart. 1305 00:55:06.500 --> 00:55:07.320 You missed Newhart. 1306 00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:10.019 I was so, so sad to miss Newhart. I almost 1307 00:55:10.039 --> 00:55:10.659 came back early. 1308 00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:12.849 You missed Newhart. You missed Howard Stern. 1309 00:55:12.929 --> 00:55:13.989 And Lin-Manuel Miranda. 1310 00:55:14.130 --> 00:55:14.530 All of them. 1311 00:55:14.550 --> 00:55:15.170 Lin-Manuel Miranda. 1312 00:55:15.190 --> 00:55:16.829 You missed a lot of great ones. 1313 00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:17.429 Yeah. 1314 00:55:17.469 --> 00:55:18.469 And you know what's so interesting? 1315 00:55:18.530 --> 00:55:20.670 It felt like the podcast really soared. 1316 00:55:21.429 --> 00:55:23.750 It just took off. 1317 00:55:24.550 --> 00:55:25.570 Really? Yeah. 1318 00:55:25.590 --> 00:55:28.550 Because I listened and it seemed to be missing something substantial. 1319 00:55:28.860 --> 00:55:29.719 What do you think it was missing? 1320 00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:30.980 I don't want to say it. 1321 00:55:31.710 --> 00:55:33.909 We did miss you. I know I rib you. Yeah, 1322 00:55:33.929 --> 00:55:36.510 I miss you. I josh you. We did miss you, girl. 1323 00:55:36.809 --> 00:55:38.190 You are the secret sauce. 1324 00:55:38.349 --> 00:55:38.610 No. 1325 00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:40.260 I like to call you. Not a good sauce, but 1326 00:55:40.300 --> 00:55:42.920 a secret. It's like when someone spits in a soup. 1327 00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:47.239 It's a secret, but no one's thrilled about it. You 1328 00:55:47.699 --> 00:55:50.420 are the secret sauce. You're a good man. We did 1329 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:53.219 miss you, and I'm glad you're back. 1330 00:55:53.579 --> 00:55:53.920 Thank you. 1331 00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:56.019 Thank you. I did notice something, though. 1332 00:55:56.079 --> 00:55:56.719 Did you listen to them? 1333 00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:57.300 Yeah, I did. 1334 00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.059 Okay. Yeah, I noticed that I was still on the podcast. 1335 00:56:01.659 --> 00:56:02.179 Ah, yes. 1336 00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:06.840 Okay. We had taped some segments ahead of time for 1337 00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:09.739 the end, but in the intro, which I wasn't there for, 1338 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:11.699 I was still in those intros. 1339 00:56:12.010 --> 00:56:14.010 Okay, let me explain what happened. 1340 00:56:14.030 --> 00:56:15.050 Yeah, yeah, I'd like to hear. 1341 00:56:15.409 --> 00:56:19.030 Because we are, this show is all about honesty. I 1342 00:56:19.070 --> 00:56:21.570 just said that. It's not true, which actually defeats the 1343 00:56:21.590 --> 00:56:23.769 purpose of me saying it's all about honesty. I didn't 1344 00:56:23.789 --> 00:56:25.469 want people to feel that a piece was missing. 1345 00:56:25.510 --> 00:56:26.489 I respect that, yeah. 1346 00:56:26.510 --> 00:56:30.690 Okay, so in the moment, I asked Adam Sachs if 1347 00:56:30.710 --> 00:56:33.349 he would pretend to be you. And so let's see 1348 00:56:33.389 --> 00:56:36.250 if we can, Adam's here right now. Let's see if 1349 00:56:36.269 --> 00:56:39.989 we can recreate that moment. I would say, and I'm 1350 00:56:40.050 --> 00:56:42.800 also joined by Matt Gourley. Matt, how are you? 1351 00:56:42.820 --> 00:56:43.389 Hi. 1352 00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:47.519 That's what Sachs did. Wait a minute. That's Sachs. Do 1353 00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:49.739 it again. The face is the thing that is- You 1354 00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:51.280 didn't know I did the face? No. He does your 1355 00:56:51.300 --> 00:56:52.300 face too. I have to get a character. 1356 00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:53.800 Hi. Hi. 1357 00:56:53.889 --> 00:56:56.869 You make me sound like I'm 12 years old. Well, basically, 1358 00:56:56.889 --> 00:56:57.429 guess what? 1359 00:56:57.489 --> 00:56:57.690 Hi. 1360 00:56:58.210 --> 00:56:58.369 Hi. 1361 00:56:58.590 --> 00:56:59.269 He did that. 1362 00:56:59.670 --> 00:57:02.550 Now, what was really fun is he did that the 1363 00:57:02.590 --> 00:57:04.949 first time we got away with it. Second time, I 1364 00:57:05.889 --> 00:57:07.750 couldn't help it. I had to push it. So I 1365 00:57:07.949 --> 00:57:11.360 think I was like... It was torture. It was torture. 1366 00:57:12.039 --> 00:57:14.199 I think I said to Adam, and how are you? 1367 00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:16.880 And he did... And then I went, yeah, but really, 1368 00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:19.400 how are you? What's going on? And then you were 1369 00:57:19.460 --> 00:57:21.840 laughing really hard, but you also had to. 1370 00:57:22.050 --> 00:57:23.650 Oh, I

was really confident in my high. 1371 00:57:23.730 --> 00:57:25.489 I feel like I have the high on lockdown. 1372 00:57:25.510 --> 00:57:28.010 The high is, you got it, yeah. But the wheels 1373 00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:30.150 come off when I have to do anything more than high. 1374 00:57:30.309 --> 00:57:32.329 I knew that. And I know that you knew that, 1375 00:57:32.510 --> 00:57:35.329 and I could see in your eyes that you smelled blood. 1376 00:57:35.530 --> 00:57:37.289 I smelled blood, so I think I forced you to 1377 00:57:37.349 --> 00:57:38.090 talk more. 1378 00:57:38.530 --> 00:57:40.619 Yeah, I think we might even have it. 1379 00:57:40.630 --> 00:57:41.409 Do you want to play a little clip? 1380 00:57:41.429 --> 00:57:41.849 Yeah, let's play it. 1381 00:57:43.250 --> 00:57:44.690 You can always wave me off if you think this 1382 00:57:45.190 --> 00:57:46.130 opener is just terrible. 1383 00:57:46.170 --> 00:57:46.449 It's great. 1384 00:57:46.849 --> 00:57:47.130 Really? 1385 00:57:47.150 --> 00:57:47.449 Mm-hmm. 1386 00:57:48.210 --> 00:57:48.769 Thanks, Gourley. 1387 00:57:51.670 --> 00:57:55.710 Joined here by my trusty assistant, Sona Mocessian. 1388 00:57:55.750 --> 00:57:56.269 How are you, Sona? 1389 00:57:56.369 --> 00:57:58.030 I'm doing very well. Thank you. 1390 00:57:58.170 --> 00:57:59.409 And, of course, Matt Gourley's here. 1391 00:57:59.429 --> 00:58:00.030 Hi. 1392 00:58:00.449 --> 00:58:02.429 Matt is quite a sharp dresser. 1393 00:58:02.650 --> 00:58:02.969 He is. 1394 00:58:03.170 --> 00:58:03.469 Yeah. 1395 00:58:03.650 --> 00:58:04.679 You're looking very sharp, Matt. 1396 00:58:04.699 --> 00:58:06.409 He's wearing suspenders, which is weird. 1397 00:58:06.570 --> 00:58:10.000 Suspenders today. Sorry. You are such a... What do you 1398 00:58:10.059 --> 00:58:13.599 call it? What's the nickname for it? Not a hipster. 1399 00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:16.440 He's kind of a hipster. 1400 00:58:16.460 --> 00:58:16.539 Okay. 1401 00:58:16.579 --> 00:58:19.539 Come on, girl. You have this coming. You wore suspenders today. 1402 00:58:19.699 --> 00:58:20.880 And a wool cap. 1403 00:58:21.099 --> 00:58:21.619 I'm so sorry. 1404 00:58:21.639 --> 00:58:25.340 He has a wool cap and suspenders, and he's got 1405 00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.320 a little pipe. He's got one of those Meerschaum pipes 1406 00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:30.840 tucked into his pocket. You're a ridiculous person. 1407 00:58:30.860 --> 00:58:32.079 It's a tiny pipe. Okay. 1408 00:58:32.139 --> 00:58:34.239 It is a tiny pipe. Anyway, the fact that he's 1409 00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:38.239 not defending himself is just a sign that we're right. 1410 00:58:38.260 --> 00:58:38.820 Yeah, I think so. 1411 00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:45.699 And he's wrong. The wheels are way off at this point. Gorley, 1412 00:58:45.739 --> 00:58:48.840 you're sounding a little hoarse. God, he's like a little 1413 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:49.739 wood creature. 1414 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:52.179 I know, I've never heard him take it like this before. 1415 00:58:52.260 --> 00:58:54.539 I guess he knows when he's been bested. 1416 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:55.940 Yeah, clearly. 1417 00:58:56.119 --> 00:58:58.360 Can I say something? Okay, I just love how Sona, 1418 00:58:58.380 --> 00:59:01.969 first of all, fantastic job of turning on Gorley. 1419 00:59:02.210 --> 00:59:03.469 I'm so sorry. 1420 00:59:03.530 --> 00:59:06.269 The minute he leaves. I'm so ashamed. And then laying 1421 00:59:06.550 --> 00:59:10.159 on a wool cap. I mean, we made you look 1422 00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:10.900 like a fool. 1423 00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:11.699 Can I say something? 1424 00:59:11.900 --> 00:59:15.360 A very close friend of mine, shout out to Daniel Michikoff, came. 1425 00:59:15.219 --> 00:59:17.880 Over and he said, I can't believe you let them 1426 00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:21.070 do that without, usually you fire back, like, You really 1427 00:59:21.309 --> 00:59:23.550 let them give it to you, and you took it. Yes, yes. 1428 00:59:23.590 --> 00:59:25.829 He bought it. He believed it. Wow. 1429 00:59:25.969 --> 00:59:27.309 And I went, what are you talking about? 1430 00:59:27.369 --> 00:59:28.690 No, that wasn't me. You couldn't tell? 1431 00:59:28.730 --> 00:59:31.440 I thought that was very clear. No, it was not clear. 1432 00:59:31.460 --> 00:59:32.320 Wow. 1433 00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:35.019 Very good job. Tip of the cap to Adam Sachs 1434 00:59:35.119 --> 00:59:38.500 for also selling out an old friend in Matt Gourley. 1435 00:59:38.539 --> 00:59:41.179 I know where I stand here. Look, you're back, and 1436 00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:42.079 we're glad to have you back. 1437 00:59:42.099 --> 00:59:42.480 I'm glad to be back. 1438 00:59:42.500 --> 00:59:44.389 Because you're an important member of the team. And if 1439 00:59:44.449 --> 00:59:47.289 something were to happen to you, we'd get someone else immediately. 1440 00:59:47.309 --> 00:59:47.380 Yep. 1441 00:59:47.949 --> 00:59:51.349 Things would just sail along, but you'd still be missed eventually. 1442 00:59:51.489 --> 00:59:53.730 Yeah, I appreciate that. And same here. And even though 1443 00:59:53.750 --> 00:59:54.329 you guys all. 1444 00:59:54.349 --> 00:59:54.570 What's that? 1445 00:59:54.590 --> 00:59:54.789 You think. 1446 00:59:55.070 --> 00:59:57.469 Same here. You think I could be replaced? No, I mean... 1447 00:59:57.409 --> 00:59:57.869 Is that what you said? 1448 00:59:57.889 --> 00:59:59.110 I agree that I could be replaced. 1449 00:59:59.409 --> 01:00:00.090 Oh, that's terrible. 1450 01:00:00.139 --> 01:00:02.099 Don't put yourself down like that. You could not be replaced. 1451 01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:02.679 You're irreplaceable. 1452 01:00:02.699 --> 01:00:04.900 You can't be replaced, Matt. I'm so sorry that I 1453 01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:05.500 piled on. 1454 01:00:05.539 --> 01:00:07.400 Yeah, I know. I don't know. 1455 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.539 You guys really... The three of

you took... I was 1456 01:00:09.579 --> 01:00:11.769 gone for... A little bit, and you really went to town. 1457 01:00:11.789 --> 01:00:13.010 It was a long time to leave for a wedding. 1458 01:00:13.150 --> 01:00:14.269 The show must go on. Yeah. 1459 01:00:14.429 --> 01:00:16.690 Now, I forgive you guys. Not that you're apologizing, but 1460 01:00:16.710 --> 01:00:16.869 I do. 1461 01:00:16.889 --> 01:00:17.199 We're not. 1462 01:00:17.389 --> 01:00:17.929 We're not apologizing. 1463 01:00:17.949 --> 01:00:18.820 But still, I forgive you. 1464 01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:19.360 Okay. 1465 01:00:19.719 --> 01:00:19.860 Yeah. 1466 01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:23.460 Well, we're all together, and I will say this about 1467 01:00:23.500 --> 01:00:27.739 this podcast. We will always strive for honesty here. Good God. 1468 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:28.300 We will. 1469 01:00:28.420 --> 01:00:30.699 Oh, my God. We will. We are journalists of the 1470 01:00:30.739 --> 01:00:33.369 highest order, and we will always strive to bring you 1471 01:00:33.389 --> 01:00:36.250 the truth. And so, if there is any deception, we 1472 01:00:36.309 --> 01:00:39.420 will come clean. Okay. I want to make sure, if 1473 01:00:39.500 --> 01:00:41.360 any of you feel that there are issues you want 1474 01:00:41.380 --> 01:00:41.820 to bring up. 1475 01:00:42.340 --> 01:00:42.780 Oh, God. 1476 01:00:43.099 --> 01:00:45.800 That you tell me. Because I want this to be 1477 01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:47.260 an honest environment. 1478 01:00:47.300 --> 01:00:48.940 You're the last person I would bring issues up with. 1479 01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:51.360 Yeah, it's not a safe place to do that, no. 1480 01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:53.369 You would just make fun of both of us. 1481 01:00:53.380 --> 01:00:54.980 Yeah, I'm not going to set myself up for that. 1482 01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:55.619 Are you kidding? 1483 01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:55.960 No way. 1484 01:00:55.980 --> 01:00:58.599 That doesn't sound like... I feel like the person you're 1485 01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:00.590 describing is not the person I think I am. 1486 01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:01.679 Yeah, I think that's true. 1487 01:01:03.610 --> 01:01:05.659 I think of myself as a supportive person who. 1488 01:01:07.659 --> 01:01:14.119 Who listens, and I don't take cheap shots or anything 1489 01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:14.940 like that. No. 1490 01:01:15.019 --> 01:01:15.280 No. 1491 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:17.320 You know? Well. 1492 01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:18.340 What else do we talk about? 1493 01:01:18.460 --> 01:01:20.579 You want to do a quick, you guys close your eyes, 1494 01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:23.219 and then you can tell whether it's me or Adam speaking. 1495 01:01:23.659 --> 01:01:24.340 Okay, go ahead. 1496 01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:24.739 Ready? 1497 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:25.340 Okay. 1498 01:01:26.699 --> 01:01:31.730 Hi. That's Shirley Temple. I think that, I don't know, wait. No, no, 1499 01:01:31.769 --> 01:01:32.110 go again. 1500 01:01:33.010 --> 01:01:33.710 Same person or? 1501 01:01:34.269 --> 01:01:34.989 Just whatever. 1502 01:01:35.010 --> 01:01:35.349 Okay. 1503 01:01:36.150 --> 01:01:36.250 Hi. 1504 01:01:36.989 --> 01:01:37.550 That's Adam. 1505 01:01:37.570 --> 01:01:38.010 That's Adam. 1506 01:01:39.090 --> 01:01:39.250 Hi. 1507 01:01:39.969 --> 01:01:40.710 That's Corley. That's Matt. 1508 01:01:42.150 --> 01:01:42.329 Hi. 1509 01:01:43.050 --> 01:01:43.349 That's Adam. 1510 01:01:43.369 --> 01:01:46.210 That's Adam. Hi. That's Matt. 1511 01:01:46.230 --> 01:01:46.670 That's Matt. 1512 01:01:46.710 --> 01:01:47.809 Hold on, we gotta get better at this. 1513 01:01:48.010 --> 01:01:51.699 Yeah, I think the fact that you're going... It's like 1514 01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:55.179 you're playing a lame game of ping pong. Did it 1515 01:01:55.260 --> 01:01:57.340 ever occur to you that maybe one of you would 1516 01:01:57.360 --> 01:01:58.300 go twice. 1517 01:01:58.039 --> 01:01:58.420 In a row? 1518 01:01:58.440 --> 01:01:59.960 Didn't occur to me. Wow. 1519 01:01:59.980 --> 01:02:00.619 Me either. 1520 01:02:01.969 --> 01:02:05.289 That was terrible. That was terrible. 1521 01:02:05.309 --> 01:02:07.110 That was not well thought out. 1522 01:02:07.130 --> 01:02:09.969 You go, then I'll go. We're going to fool them. 1523 01:02:10.030 --> 01:02:13.010 You go, then I'll go. Then you go, then I'll go. 1524 01:02:13.170 --> 01:02:13.489 Okay. 1525 01:02:13.750 --> 01:02:15.550 We were in it for a while. 1526 01:02:16.110 --> 01:02:18.510 Matt, that's Matt. That's Adam. That's Matt. 1527 01:02:18.650 --> 01:02:19.190 One more time. 1528 01:02:19.230 --> 01:02:21.900 That's Adam. You know what I love? This is just 1529 01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:25.880 a terrible, like, this is a jeopardy for really dumb people. Yeah. 1530 01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:26.679 Okay. 1531 01:02:26.739 --> 01:02:27.860 And the prize is nothing. 1532 01:02:28.019 --> 01:02:31.579 Here we go. Hi. 1533 01:02:32.539 --> 01:02:34.820 Adam. Yeah, I think that's Adam. 1534 01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:37.059 Hi. 1535 01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:37.840 That's Adam. 1536 01:02:37.860 --> 01:02:41.250 That's Adam. Now I knew you were going to do 1537 01:02:41.289 --> 01:02:41.449 it twice. 1538 01:02:41.469 --> 01:02:44.909 Yeah, you just are now doing it. We just suggested 1539 01:02:45.230 --> 01:02:48.610 you try a strategy. We're not the best psychological games. 1540 01:02:48.650 --> 01:02:51.949 Can I just quickly apologize to anyone who's listening right 1541 01:02:51.989 --> 01:02:58.250 now who's driving? This might put you to sleep. Just 1542 01:02:58.289 --> 01:02:59.690 pull over to the side of the road. 1543 01:02:59.710 --> 01:03:00.789 And if you can. 1544 01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:05.380 You should probably switch to a different podcast because this 1545 01:03:05.460 --> 01:03:08.199 is a disaster. This is so dumb. 1546 01:03:08.239 --> 01:03:09.039 This is a new. 1547 01:03:09.059 --> 01:03:09.599 Yeah. 1548

01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:13.099 Sona and I have our eyes closed and you two 1549 01:03:13.179 --> 01:03:13.920 idiots are going. 1550 01:03:14.019 --> 01:03:20.360 And somehow this is one of my favorite moments we've 1551 01:03:20.500 --> 01:03:20.940 ever done. 1552 01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:21.460 This is. 1553 01:03:22.070 --> 01:03:22.849 Oh, this is fun. 1554 01:03:22.889 --> 01:03:26.050 I mean, we live in a world where there's 3D, 1555 01:03:26.929 --> 01:03:31.900 incredible CGI, and we are huddled around microphones. I've crawled 1556 01:03:31.940 --> 01:03:33.579 back to the lowest form of show business. 1557 01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:35.110 Close your eyes. 1558 01:03:38.210 --> 01:03:40.409 Will's losing it. 1559 01:03:40.550 --> 01:03:43.300 Will is losing it. Will is crying. 1560 01:03:43.320 --> 01:03:44.360 Will is crying. 1561 01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:48.019 We're pushing the medium, man. We're pushing the medium. We're 1562 01:03:48.059 --> 01:03:55.469 taking chances, man. We're taking chances. Well. I'm proud of us. 1563 01:03:55.889 --> 01:04:01.250 I think we, why'd it get so quiet? You guys 1564 01:04:01.309 --> 01:04:02.429 aren't usually that attentive to me. 1565 01:04:02.630 --> 01:04:05.480 I think we're just like thought maybe you'd deliver a 1566 01:04:05.539 --> 01:04:08.119 positive moment and we're like, this can't be real. 1567 01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:09.659 Oh, no, it wasn't real. 1568 01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:10.019 Okay. 1569 01:04:10.139 --> 01:04:13.090 No, I would never praise us. I would praise myself, 1570 01:04:13.489 --> 01:04:14.150 but not us. 1571 01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:17.400 As a group. 1572 01:04:17.659 --> 01:04:21.099 I would praise myself, but not us as a group. 1573 01:04:22.300 --> 01:04:28.699 That's an awful thing to say. It's kind of, that's my, 1574 01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:32.050 I don't know, that's probably my philosophy in life. I 1575 01:04:32.070 --> 01:04:34.150 will praise myself. Now we're being honest. 1576 01:04:34.329 --> 01:04:36.329 Here we go, we did it. 1577 01:04:36.389 --> 01:04:37.730 We're back together as a family. 1578 01:04:38.449 --> 01:04:38.670 Yep. 1579 01:04:39.369 --> 01:04:42.380 The three, and I'm not going to say amigos. The 1580 01:04:42.539 --> 01:04:45.179 one amigo and then the two people that the amigo knows, 1581 01:04:45.260 --> 01:04:47.619 kind of, who work for the amigo. How about the 1582 01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:50.360 one amigo and then the two people who get- You literally. 1583 01:04:50.460 --> 01:04:52.659 You can't be one amigo. You need to have a 1584 01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:55.199 friend to be a friend. We're the friends. You're just 1585 01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:56.030 the banditos. 1586 01:04:56.130 --> 01:04:56.690 Yeah. 1587 01:04:56.909 --> 01:04:59.210 You hang on to our friendship. 1588 01:04:59.230 --> 01:05:01.889 So you're the two amigos and I'm the bandito? Yeah. No, 1589 01:05:02.130 --> 01:05:04.130 I am the amigo and you're the two people that 1590 01:05:04.170 --> 01:05:05.789 work for one amigo. 1591 01:05:07.130 --> 01:05:08.909 No, I think Matt and I are friends. 1592 01:05:09.010 --> 01:05:12.989 And out of the beneficence and generosity of the amigo, 1593 01:05:13.289 --> 01:05:16.409 you two have living since you were able to be sustained. 1594 01:05:18.070 --> 01:05:20.349 That's the kind of amigo I am. No, you're the 1595 01:05:20.449 --> 01:05:21.570 evil rancher. 1596 01:05:23.269 --> 01:05:24.070 You're the villain. 1597 01:05:24.250 --> 01:05:24.849 All right. 1598 01:05:24.869 --> 01:05:25.730 Okay. Let's go. 1599 01:05:25.909 --> 01:05:26.429 Let's go. 1600 01:05:26.699 --> 01:05:32.820 Listen, you wanted content, I gave you content. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. 1601 01:05:33.420 --> 01:05:35.019 People are thinking they're going to listen to a Japanese 1602 01:05:35.039 --> 01:05:35.599 game show. 1603 01:05:35.739 --> 01:05:35.900 Oh. 1604 01:05:39.469 --> 01:05:42.969 Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, with Sonam Ovsessian and Conan 1605 01:05:43.030 --> 01:05:47.420 O'Brien as himself. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced 1606 01:05:47.460 --> 01:05:50.380 by Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and 1607 01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:53.980 Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Special thanks to 1608 01:05:54.019 --> 01:05:57.679 Jack White for the theme song. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. 1609 01:05:59.989 --> 01:06:02.670 Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and the show is 1610 01:06:02.730 --> 01:06:05.300 engineered by Will Becker. You can rate and review this 1611 01:06:05.340 --> 01:06:07.969 show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review 1612 01:06:08.010 --> 01:06:10.789 featured on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? 1613 01:06:11.010 --> 01:06:16.989 Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It, too, 1614 01:06:17.050 --> 01:06:19.429 could be featured on a future episode. And if you 1615 01:06:19.449 --> 01:06:22.579 haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend 1616 01:06:22.860 --> 01:06:31.159 on Apple Podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. This 1617 01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:36.019 has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.