บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Belonging Without Exceptions

00:05:03.120 But in this case, if they adopted that kind of rule, can you imagine this as a new source of bullying of students with disabilities? 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.439 In the schoolyard, uh, students without disabilities, why do you get higher grades? 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:13.040 Because uh you don't you don't have to be at school, and we get penalized if we're not, and that's not fair. 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:17.680 And and that kind of bullying, we don't need another cause for bullying in students with disabilities. 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.639 It gets away from that point of equity, right? 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:26.399 Where you're you're that that it's you're you're creating a special education regime within the public system. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:30.079 Is that uh is that another unintended consequence or potential? 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:40.319 Well, it's it's creating an it's just creating another it's adopting a rule without thinking about the uh impact on students with disabilities. 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:40.800 Right. 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:43.600 And then when they're confronted with the impact, i.e. 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:50.959 exclusions, they come up with another rule, which is even more harmful for students with disabilities. 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:52.959 Uh, this is what we've been up against. 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.199 And and so that's been a major thing. 00:05:55.279 --> 00:06:06.720 Now the government pushed forward the bill and rammed it through, and by the time um uh this recording goes public, I expect the law will have passed on third reading. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:13.680 Um but in the meantime, both the opposition parties proposed some amendments at our request. 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:27.120 Amendments that would require the the government to uh take into account the impact on people with disabilities when they when the provincial government starts trying to manage the minutiae uh at school boards around the province. 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:28.720 Well, the government voted against that. 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:32.879 They shouldn't have to take into account the impact on students with disabilities. 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:43.199 The government's taken over uh being able to dictate the minutiae if there's any construction at schools, renovations or new alterations. 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:52.959 So we said to me, we propose got an amendment proposed that said they should make sure that those those construction projects are accessible to people with disabilities, parents and kids. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:53.439 Right. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.079 Well, the government the government voted against that. 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:56.959 Right. 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.040 So that's where we live. 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:01.759 So you've got a lot keeping you busy. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.000 Um, and you you've also got a podcast. 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:16.240 We can talk about that a little bit later, but may maybe uh just to start, um you you you are known as uh a strong advocate uh for disability issues. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:31.920 Um uh you're um very passionate about the the work that you uh that you do and have had a significant impact over many decades uh on uh how we live in Canada and how people with disabilities live. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.839 So you deserve a lot of recognition for that and a lot of credit. 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:43.279 The this sort of month we're focusing on belonging and what that means different to means to different people. 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:48.160 So you you're you're uh you um are blind and have been so for many years. 00:07:48.480 --> 00:08:00.000 Can you talk about what that was like as a child growing up and as a young adult and you're going through school, you've become a lawyer, you're um you you've gone uh through a big journey. 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:01.680 What how did belonging fit in? 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.519 Or how did what was your experience uh in in belonging? 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:20.240 Well, you know, I had an experience when I was 13 and I went to an overnight camp in the in the States, not a camp for blind kids, it was a Jewish educational summer camp that really defines my understanding of this. 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.560 You see, is I'm totally blind now. 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.000 But when I was a kid, I had partial vision of one eye. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:29.120 And I could read, but I had to hold a book up close to my nose. 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:42.720 Now, if I was reading in a public place, like a uh park or a shopping mall or a restaurant, uh, somebody would come over at Alder Kid and say, you know, my parent, why don't you get better glasses for your kid? 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.519 As if this had never occurred to us. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.080 Um my condition couldn't be corrected by glasses. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:57.039 Um, so I was used to being kind of the weird kid for for that reason. 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:10.399 Well, I went to this summer camp, um, and uh the first night we were all getting into bed, the campers, and I always like reading before I go to bed, even when I was 13. 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:20.399 And so I took out a novel to read and I held it up close to my nose, and I was just waiting for the teasing to start from the other kids because I just met them. 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.240 They knew I had low vision, but I was just I didn't use a white cane. 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.399 Nobody said a word, and nobody teased me. 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:33.840 And my first reaction is you gotta remember, I'm 13, is what's wrong with these kids? 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.320 Like, why am I not being teased? 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:36.639 Right. 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:50.320 Well, what I was later to find out was that they had spoken to the campers in my my bunk uh while I was out of the cabin and explained that I had low vision and that they should

accept me as an equal. 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:58.879 And this was the first time ever that I had met a bunch of new kids and didn't get teased. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:11.039 And I realized from this event as a 13-year-old that we can have a belonging community, but it doesn't happen by accident. 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:16.159 It only happens when you've got a camp director and staff who are visionary enough to do this. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.200 Now, what I'm describing happened in 1970. 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:26.080 We'd expect a lot more today in 2026, but that was pretty forward thinking. 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:40.480 And my understanding since then has always been that um I can't just expect people who don't know anything about blindness to uh treat me as an equal, much as I'd like to be. 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:51.759 That um I've got to sort of regularly be in this process of um of advocating in order to win that opportunity. 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:53.600 Now, is that the way the world should be? 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:54.240 No. 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.440 But is it the way the way the world was when I grew up? 00:10:57.519 --> 00:10:59.440 And the answer is absolutely. 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.679 So that that's a really great story. 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:14.000 Um, and you so did you find out about the the sort of orientation that the camp director had done with your cabin mates while you were at the camp, or was that down sort of down the road? 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:18.159 Oh, I I found I think I found it, I don't remember when I found out, but I think it was at that time. 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:26.240 I've since been back to the camp many times, but I've been back to teach the you know future uh next generations of campers. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:36.480 And I tell this story, how it really started me on a road um that I'm still on here, you know, so many years later. 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:42.320 Were were you appreciative of of them um doing that on your behalf? 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:43.919 Or how did you how did you go into that? 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.519 No, no, I I would listen, I was 13, I was delighted. 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:52.960 Um, I found that camp to be a home where I could feel uh like I belonged. 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.600 Look, that one of the activities was sports. 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:05.919 I I stink at sports, but there were other activities I excelled at, and everybody got the chance to be, you know, what they could be in the areas they could be in. 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:11.919 And I still have very good friends all around the world that I met at that camp at that time. 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:25.279 So that that there's something there that uh around belonging uh and that experience that you had as a young kid, uh well, yeah, 13, as I guess that's a young uh uh young boy. 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:32.399 Well um how's that shaped you and your expectations uh and I guess your advocacy since then? 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:40.399 Well, it it it very much shaped my understanding that we can accomplish a belonging community. 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:51.200 We can accomplish a community, and it's actually not that hard if the people in charge make it part of the plan and make it part of the DNA. 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:52.000 Right. 00:12:52.240 --> 00:13:03.759 Um, our problem and why I've been involved along with so many other people, when you talked about accomplishments, these are all the products of lots of people teaming up together, and I'm I'm honored to be one of them. 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:24.559 But whether it's at the Special Education Advisory Committee of the Toronto District School Board, which I'm now chairing, or or um through these other efforts, it's it's actually trying to push the people who could create those environments to create those environments, um, because they won't happen by accident. 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:26.799 Great. 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.559 The so that happened in 1970 and you're 13. 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:42.480 Fast forward 10, 12 years, you're a young man, a young lawyer involved with um uh the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, uh, and you took a strong role in that. 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:52.399 Can you talk about what you did there and what how did your how did that how did belonging inform your uh your approach to that to that uh to that effort? 00:13:52.720 --> 00:14:02.960 Well, in 1980, our then prime minister, Pierre Trudeau, uh proposed a new charter, a new constitution with a new charter of rights, first time ever. 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.440 And it included a new guarantee of equality. 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:10.240 All of this is great, but the equality provision did not include people with disabilities. 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.559 And I had just finished law school. 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.080 I was writing my bar exams. 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:15.759 I thought this was appalling. 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:37.279 Um, but we didn't have, I didn't have much experience, I had very little experience doing community organizing, and I got involved in advocating, I needed a platform, so I used the CNIB, the National Institute for the Blind, uh, to appear in Ottawa before a parliamentary committee to to argue for the disability amendment. 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:50.000 Two other organizations did it, the precursor to the Council of Canadians with disabilities, and the uh precursor to uh community uh, well, inclusion Canada. 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.240 It was then called the Canadian Association for the Men, one of the people who presented. 00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:08.639 I was later to meet, befriend, and admire uh Orville Endicott, uh and I still miss him to this day as a tremendous advocate for people with intellectual disabilities and a role model to me and a gem of a human being. 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:14.720 Um, I've written a memoir about that battle, which any of our listeners can read

for free. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.320 I don't want people to have to pay. 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:21.440 If you just search on the title on the internet, search on swimming up Niagara Falls. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.440 I called it that because it felt like we were trying to swim up Niagara Falls. 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:31.440 And you can download it as a Word document, a PDF, an EPUB, or an audiobook, all for free. 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:40.639 If you really want a hard copy, it's a good Amazon and search on read uh swimming up Niagara Falls, and they charge, I think, 17 bucks to print a copy. 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:41.120 Okay. 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:41.840 Okay. 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.440 And I don't get royalties because I don't want to. 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:50.159 I want you to be able to read it, but it tells you you can read what each of the presenters had to say. 00:15:50.480 --> 00:16:10.399 But what what I learned from that was that doing the what seemed objectively impossible, uh, fighting to get an amendment to the constitution itself, um, not alone, there was a number of us who were involved in the fight, but we weren't connected. 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.080 We were all operating separately. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.919 We didn't have an internet, we didn't have Zoom, we didn't have Twitter, social media, any of that stuff. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:18.480 Right. 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.120 Uh but like we won. 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:33.360 And even though it seems as impossible as to try to swim up Niagara Falls, we did swim up Niagara Falls, and we've got an amendment to the Charter of Rights, which is still in force today. 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:45.200 So do do you is there a moment that stands out when you sort of so you you you you you learn about this, you study, you you make you you go do your presentations, you align with other people that are advocating for the same thing. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.080 There must have been a moment we found out, wow, we've won. 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:49.600 Uh what what was that like? 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:50.960 We talk about it in the memoir. 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:51.919 It's actually very funny. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:02.799 It turns out that a the justice minister at the time was a guy named Jean Cretier, who went on to be prime minister, and he had a guy working in his office, a policy advisor named Eddie Goldenberg. 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.160 I had met him the year before when I was doing my law apprenticeship. 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.319 It's called articling, and he was in the firm. 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.279 When I appeared in Ottawa, he came over to say hi to me. 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:24.960 And it only occurred to me at the end of January of 20 uh of 1981, I should lobby this guy, which in the memoir I explained like I feel like a complete jerk for not calling him sooner. 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:33.839 But I called him uh uh on a particular morning, and I was already with my 58 arguments why they should agree with us. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.039 And he goes, David, it's gonna pass today. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:38.799 Oh, wow, we'd won. 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.839 And and then he said, and don't tell anyone. 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:49.279 So I have to walk around all day knowing we'd won this stupendous victory collectively, and I can't tell anyone. 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.839 By the way, I'm convinced I told my mom. 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.960 Well, your mom was your one of your biggest supporters, so or maybe your biggest supporter at that time. 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.440 So she she she'd earned it, yeah. 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:12.480 But and by the way, we're gonna talk about my podcast, but we have two episodes in the podcast about that battle where I interviewed one of the other combatants who worked on it back then, who I didn't know back then, but I've met since. 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:17.759 So I've listened to some of your podcasts, but I haven't heard that one, so I will uh I will uh uh tune in. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:43.839 That's that's fascinating because those were uphill battles, but it sounds like you know, when you're getting the nod from somebody in the Minister of Justice's office that you've you've been successful, um, that must have been uh uh you know very emboldening for what you uh have continued to do since then around advocacy and challenging the status quo and fighting uh uphill battles or upstream battles, as it were. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:45.279 Absolutely. 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:59.920 And you know, it our biggest impediment to success is not governments that won't listen or school board senior bureaucrats who are just bureaucrats, right? 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.279 Um, and so on. 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:14.640 Um, those are real problems, but our biggest obstacle to success is the fact that so many people with disabilities and their allies feel there's nothing they can do. 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:19.279 And I'm not saying that feeling is unfounded or that they're irrational. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:20.720 I get it. 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:29.039 You have to suspend that disbelief, you have to suspend the feeling that you can't swim up at Niagara Falls, right? 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:41.519 Um, and then you go do this advocacy, and that's what the podcast is all about, because probably everybody I've interviewed stared at that waterfall and said, tell me that I'm going. 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:43.839 Yeah, yeah. 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.119 So um since then, and that's what geez, is that 40 years ago? 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:52.400 40 plus years ago? 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:53.599 That's that's going back. 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:54.640 46. 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:56.079 46. 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.400 Where are we at now? 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.400 Where are we at now in terms of people, and I I'll separate them into two categories. 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:14.079

The the rights that people with a disability have, and then just what's your general sense of where we're at in terms of belonging and acceptance of people with disabilities um uh in Canada? 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:20.880 You know, it's it's cliche to say, well, we've come a long way, but there's still much to be done. 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:30.160 God, if if we had a buck for every time we've heard that, you know, we'd be retiring the national debt and you wouldn't have to do any more fundraising campaigns. 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:47.519 Um and uh I wish we could, but um in terms of rights on the uh um in the law books, we are significantly ahead uh between what's guaranteed in the Charter of Rights and in provincial and federal human rights codes. 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:56.480 We have a provincial uh in Ontario accessibility legislation, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, we have the Accessible Canada Act. 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:01.440 Both of those have been achieved far less than they could. 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:18.240 And but as a result of our campaigning and the advocacy, we have a new generation of people with disabilities and their allies, their parents, their family members, their spouses, who see us as rights holders. 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.720 In the 70s, we were charity recipients. 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:25.359 If you said disability, they reached in their wallet to give you a handout. 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:26.240 Right. 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.119 Okay, that that was the association. 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:38.480 Um, and if you talk to a news reporter, it was, oh, what's the terrible story about what it's like to live with your disability? 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:46.720 Or let's give do a heartwarming story how despite your disability, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:48.720 As if your life should be miserable. 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:53.920 So if you overcame that misery, oh, that's so heartwarming. 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.279 Um the term the term I've used or I've heard and used at times to describe that is sadvertising. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:21:59.599 I mean 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.519 There's there's no end of this. 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:07.039 But there's I'm teaching at part-time at three law schools. 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:16.319 They have 20 to 30 percent of their student population registers having disabilities, and I mean the full spectrum, the full spectrum of disabilities. 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:26.559 And any number of them aren't just in it because of disability rights, but they sure have a keen interest, either career interest or personal interest in disability rights. 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:31.839 When I went to law school, nobody said the word disability and the word rights in the same sentence. 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:32.559 Right. 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.480 Okay, we we didn't study this in law school at all. 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:38.400 We didn't even think about it. 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.240 It wasn't a it wasn't a thing. 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.680 So to that end, we've come a distance. 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.279 Um, I will say the following, however. 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:56.880 Um, we have generated um way less, way more in defining rights and way less at implementing rights. 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.559 Um, and so we aren't seeing the progress. 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:08.480 I measure Canada and Ontario based not on where we've come, but where we could be, given who we are and what we have. 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:18.079 And given who we are and what we have in terms of resources, capacity, we are way behind where we should be, and inexcusably. 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.160 Yeah, with the AODA. 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.599 So that's the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:24.160 Yep. 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:29.599 Um, and there's also a similar legislation, or there's a piece of legislation similar in the United States. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.519 Yep, the Americans with Disabilities Act. 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:32.799 Americans ADA. 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:36.559 So um how do we compare to what they've done in the States? 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.960 Have they been more successful or less successful? 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:42.559 Uh disability advocates would say they're far behind where they should be. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:58.160 But I will tell you that our act actually defines rights better than their but their act has done tons more change because the implementation, the enforcement, the regulatory powers have been used and are more robust. 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:00.160 Even just small things. 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:17.920 Like I I uh uh worked for years uh in the deaf community, and I'm all I always note that when a politician is doing an announcement, whether it's they're running for office or they're announcing a hurricane, there is a sign language interpreter on the stage right next to them interpreting what is being said. 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.640 You rarely see that in Canada. 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:33.599 Uh, and uh, you know, I I just naively attribute that to just more adoption of the of the uh um uh the Americans with Disabilities Act at having more teeth or more acceptance than it does here. 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.839 Is that is that uh I think that's that's too naive, or is that no, no, no? 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:38.559 I think that's fair. 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:44.319 I mean, listen, I'm gonna give you one that may seem like silly, it's so obvious. 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:49.039 But when you as a CITER person check into a hotel, how do you know what room you're in? 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:51.279 You there's a number on the door. 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.599 How do I know what room I'm in? 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.119 You'd think, well, having braille, that doesn't cost much. 00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.200 You put it up

once and it's done. 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:04.880 You go to an American hotel, and you'll almost always. 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:11.039 I'm trying to remember if I've ever been to one in my adult life when they didn't have braille on the door for a room number. 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:16.079 In a Canadian hotel, you will virtually only see it if it's an American chain. 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:20.160 And you only have it in that American chain because the U.S. 00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:24.720 Congress had required the corporation to do it, so it's part of their standard practice. 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:32.240 So, in other words, we get more accessibility when it comes to braille on the hotel room doors, which cost pennies. 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.640 We get more from Queen's Park. 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:39.599 I I forget where I was with you, but we were going to get in an elevator. 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:44.400 And it was one of these new ones, I guess they're trying to manage the flow of people going up elevators. 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:47.119 Okay, there you go. 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:53.920 Uh, and you you you have to go up and push the floor you're on, and then it'll tell you, or not tell you, show you what elevator to get in. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:59.200 And you had sort of pointed out that that wasn't really helpful for uh for you, and there was no way around it. 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.960 They are horrible for accessibility, but everybody hates them. 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.400 Nobody knows how to use them. 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:14.400 They took technology that actually everybody knows how to use an elevator and came up with something that's more complicated and people don't know how to use. 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:22.400 And aside from being horrible for accessibility and confusing for everybody, they're also dangerous. 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.319 And why are they dangerous? 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:29.759 Because if you go on one, you can't press a button on a floor and just say, I want to get off right now. 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:31.599 You gotta wait till it goes to the floor. 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:45.200 So if a woman gets on an elevator or a teen uh gets on an elevator and there's some guy there who looks kind of creepy, the first instinct for self-protection is get off the elevator. 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:46.079 You can't. 00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:49.759 If the next stop is the 30th floor, you're trapped. 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.359 That's a safety thing. 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:52.720 Yeah, that's a good point. 00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:00.000 I had not, I had not in all my I had not thought of that as I've used those, or once I figured out I'm just so relieved to be on it and going to the right place, I hope. 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:06.079 Um so that's that that's that's good reflection on where we're at and where we've got to go. 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:15.279 Now you've done you you've started a podcast um where you're focusing on

these issues and others and other of and other of your favorite topics. 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:16.720 Uh tell us about it. 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:24.000 So I'm inviting your listeners of your podcast to listen to my podcast and to invite others to do the same. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.440 Because the only way you learn about podcasts is word of mouth. 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:34.400 Um, it's called Disability Rights and Wrongs, the David Le Podcast. 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:39.920 On it, I explained that I'm named after the podcast rather than the podcast being named after me. 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:46.559 And the idea that I had was nobody tells our stories from an advocacy perspective. 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:57.039 And I wanted to take you, the listener, to the front lines of disability advocacy to hear the stories of people who are fighting the good fight. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:07.920 And I don't mean professionals, though some of them are, and I don't mean people in organizations, though some of them are, and totally appropriately good to hear from them. 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:22.079 But I want to I want you to hear from individuals and hear what they were up against, how they got involved, what they did, how well it worked, and in every episode, what can we learn? 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.920 I want you, the listener, to learn how to do advocacy. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:31.599 And now that advocacy doesn't have to be legislative advocacy or policy reform. 00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:36.079 It could be how to advocate for your kids' disability needs at school. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.920 Uh, spoiler alert, we got a couple episodes on that topic coming. 00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:40.559 I bet. 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:57.519 Um, and so I've I've interviewed um an advocate for uh air travel accessibility who's been up against Bayon Ziv, who's had horrible experiences, but is catapulted in the front of efforts for reform. 00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:08.559 Um, I interviewed uh just recently the latest episode is Kate Chung, who's an advocate for accessible housing, especially important for seniors, but for everybody. 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:15.440 Uh, we've read about the battles in the media uh for kids with autism uh in Ontario. 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:33.119 Uh one of the architects of that battle talked about having two kids with autism, not knowing anything about that or advocacy and ending up build co-building an amazing movement that is all over the news and has had a dramatic impact. 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:50.319 But it's not just hearing uh in terms of the the constitutional reform, I interviewed Yvonne Peters, a lawyer I met years after those battles, who was doing the same thing in Saskatchewan that I was doing in Ontario when we were both much younger fighting for that amendment. 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.160 We compare notes, right? 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.960 But the the other thing I and so I'm trying to cover all disabilities, all barriers. 00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.759 That's why I've got lots to cover. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:19.039 But the other thing I wanted to do, if I want you to learn how to do this advocacy um and learn from uh successes and failures, I thought it would be also good to hear from people from the other side of the desk, the people to whom you advocate. 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.680 So uh two things that we've done so far. 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:25.519 I wanted to talk to a politician, a for a retired politician who I'd lobbied. 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:36.079 Well, I really was fortunate because I got uh Kathleen Wynn, former premier of Ontario, gave such a great interview that I I I actually we split it into two episodes. 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:36.880 Oh, great. 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:38.799 Um, because it's so rich with content. 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.880 And we were able to talk, like I met her lobbying her, and now we just have a collegial relationship. 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:46.880 But I asked her, What works? 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.279 How do you get a meeting with a premier? 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.119 What gets your attention? 00:30:51.440 --> 00:31:04.400 Um, and we actually talked about meetings we'd had or issues we'd locked horns on and did kind of a uh a uh a Monday morning quarterback analysis of years later, which was fantastic. 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:05.759 She was just great. 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.960 But also, one of the things we talk about is take your issue to the media. 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.559 Well, I've been in the media a lot, but lots of people have it. 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.880 So I want to talk to a former journalist about how to get a story in the media. 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:23.519 Well, I got a fantastic woman who's a friend of mine named Michelle McQuig. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:25.359 She was a Canadian press for 20 years. 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.799 She's now she's blind and she's now the head of Balance for Blind Adults. 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.960 It's a um a uh a service providing organization. 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:36.480 I'd taken stories to her to see if she would cover them. 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:37.920 I that's how I met her. 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:38.160 Right. 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:52.160 And she talked about what it takes to get a story in the media, what the do's and don'ts, and gave a really practical guide to someone who's never done it before uh about what you should do. 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:53.519 That's great. 00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:11.680 So that's I want to give you um, we have an episode upcoming which will be of special interest to uh community living uh Toronto community who have kids in school, because I wanted to uh talk about how to advocate. 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:15.519 And uh, we've got a couple episodes that'll be upcoming, but we've recorded one already. 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:17.920 It's a few weeks away before it'll come out. 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:22.960 But it's I I

interviewed a now retired elementary school principal. 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:30.160 And I said, if I my child has uh disability-related needs, uh how do I raise it with you? 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:31.119 Who do I talk to? 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:35.920 What works if I'm not happy with what's going on, what do I do? 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:39.440 Uh, not chapter and verse of board procedures, right? 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:41.119 But dealing with people. 00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:48.000 And the principal now retired, who I interviewed, knows the story from both sides because she also has a kid with a disability. 00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.640 Oh, okay. 00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.039 That's that's a that would be an interesting conversation. 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:58.799 So we we've got that already, and I'm I'm open by the way, if people want to write we with ideas of what else we should cover. 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.799 I really I welcome feedback and I welcome ideas or our. 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:11.200 Yeah, no, it's a it it's a good podcast, and uh I'll uh we'll we'll put some link, we'll put a link to it in our in the notes for uh for this as well. 00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:12.799 So that's I'm glad you're doing that. 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:17.680 I I wondered how long it would take you to get into the podcast space, and uh you did not disappoint. 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:21.119 Um final question for you. 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:45.759 In in all in all of your years of doing advocacy and um uh and your personal experiences in that, is there, and this is probably an impossible question, however, is there a moment or something that stands out in all your years that sort of made it that sort of you go back to and think, this is why I do this work, this is why this, this is why this matters? 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:56.480 Um there are lots of those moments, but I'll tell you um what what really resonates for me. 00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:19.679 Um when I see or get an email from someone who is uh advocating for themselves or their child or their parent, um, and they they've been following our updates or watch one of our videos, we have tons, um, or now listening to the podcast. 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:28.639 If if someone sees those and turns it into action, uh that for me is what I I get a wall-to-wall smile. 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:30.800 And I I actually, it's great. 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:38.000 When the podcast started, you know, we said, please email us, give us your feedback, a-o-d-a-feedback at gmail.com. 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.239 And someone I'd never heard of blasted me. 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.760 Why did you interview Kathleen when you were so critical of her? 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.280 This is just hypocritical. 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:49.920 And I wrote back and I said, look, we were critical of her, but she's giving us helpful tips. 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.119 And she was very generous, and I think the tips were useful. 00:34:53.360 -->

00:35:02.719 Well, that person then listened to the next podcast and uh and then emailed me saying, I'm gonna use these tips. 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.320 I wish I'd known this before. 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.599 And I just got this grin that you can't believe. 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.000 Like, you know, uh, I was delighted that they listened to the podcast. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:17.280 I'm delighted that they listened critically and were ready to poke at me because they should. 00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:17.920 Yes. 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:28.719 Um, and I'm delighted that when I responded, Kathleen went, I can criticize things she should have done, but she's done a lot of stuff that was good for us, and she was so generous with her time. 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:40.159 Well, and you don't get to be you don't get to be premier without knowing a thing or two about politics uh and and how to and uh how to understand and explain an issue. 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:50.559 So you're right, we have to see people that we're talking with and advocating uh for for things from as people and humans that are you know um uh that we can learn stuff from as well. 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:52.239 We're we're missing out if we don't. 00:35:52.480 --> 00:36:00.320 And I I also I get a big smile, and I am really delighted if somebody reads one of our updates and says, you know, I don't agree with you. 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:08.639 And here's why because engaging people, people getting people, people who sit at home and watch TV and just feel it's hopeless. 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.800 I understand that mentality. 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:20.719 Um, I've been there, but my goal is to get them from just yelling at their computer screen or their TV screen to jumping into action. 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:22.639 Get up and advocate. 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:23.440 Yep. 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:32.079 And once they do, we can win constitutional reform, we can win changes at school boards, we can learn win legislative reforms. 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:34.400 Um, the sky's the limit. 00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:38.079 And that's what the podcast that's what the podcast's for, to give you the tools. 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:50.800 Well, it's the podcast, and it's what you've done throughout your life, so you are no better uh representative of that truth that if you get up and start working with like-minded people, you can uh you can change the world. 00:36:51.360 --> 00:37:07.119 Well, I'm it's an honor to be able to do this stuff and to work with so many wonderful people like you, like your organization, like so many others that I've met, um, who you know allow it to happen because one person alone can't. 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:08.559 True. 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:10.559 Um, David, thank you very much. 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:11.760 Thanks for taking the time. 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:17.119 Uh again, uh you will uh we'll encourage people to listen to your to your podcast. 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.360 And again, thanks for taking some time this afternoon to share your thoughts. 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:30.480 And uh and uh thank you for everything that you've done uh for the disability community and for uh for so many people over for so many years. 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:33.679 Thanks for involving me and thanks for your friendship. 00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.079 Thank you for listening, watching, and sharing. 00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:43.599 We release a new episode of Community Chats on the 15th and the 30th of each month, so don't forget to subscribe to stay up to date.