สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
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It's not making assumptions about people's life phases.
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I've heard of women not being given business trips because they've got young kids or not given the opportunity to step up.
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You know, you just don't know.
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Maybe their partner wants to step down or maybe their parent comes to live with them and fills in the childcare gap.
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You know, you just don't know what people want.
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Welcome to Comeback Coach with me, Jessica Chivers, a chartered coaching psychologist, author, and director at the Talent Keeper Specialists.
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I coach senior leaders and high-performing professionals when they return to work from a break and at other pivotal career moments.
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I'm really pleased you're here.
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Hello, Flight Mines.
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Today's episode is a bit of a random one, and I did ominar over whether to put it out or not because we didn't stick to the topic at hand, which were supposed to be about sabbaticals, and instead we freewheeled around various threads of conversation, including how awful family holidays can be.
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We had some honest moments about that.
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We talked about the LinkedIn algorithm messing with my head, the UK government's decision to ask all employers over 250 employees to submit a mandatory gender action plan along with their gender pay gap data from next year.
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And we also linked back to LinkedIn as a place to test ideas.
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And I listened back to the episode when I was on a yomp through my local park in the pissing rain when Storm Austin was passing over the UK.
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And I decided that I would put it out and I would see what you think.
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And, you know, I have been doing the podcast for five years and I've got to keep it fresh for me.
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And as the wind whipped my hair around my face, I did find myself smiling as I listened back.
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And I was thinking, I really quite like the idea of having more freewheeling conversations like this with people who have a unique perspective on work and careers.
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So here's my chat with Emma Jacobs, features writer at the Financial Times, and I would love you to let me know what you think.
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Emma, I'm really pleased to be here.
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This came about on a complete whim.
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I saw your post having taken a sabbatical on LinkedIn, and I thought, oh, I'll drop Emma a line and find out whether she's game for talking about how this sabbatical came about, how it went, top tips for having a sabbatical.
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So here we are.
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I'm delighted.
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Will you set the scene for us and talk about your role at the FT?
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Very nice to be here, Jessica.
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And also that good things come out of LinkedIn.
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Maybe we should talk about that, Emma.
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Maybe I should just hijack the conversation right away.
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And instead of setting the scene, we just have a bit of a rant about LinkedIn, or maybe we note that and come back to it.
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Yeah, so I said that I'd come back from a sabbatical, and that is something that we editorial at the FT, that's the journalists and editors and subs and everyone that goes into making the website content.
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We get an extra four weeks' holiday every four years, which is meant to be about staff development.
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And no one ever really checks up on you, but I think it is about staff development.
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My role at the FT is to write about work generally.
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I'm a feature writer at the FT, and I generally write about work and the workplace and trends in work, sabbaticals and career breaks come up as one of those sort of things.
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And also I write across the paper for weekend and do interviews and features and columns.
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How long have you been at the FT?
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A really long time.
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I've been there for 25 years.
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So how many sabbaticals have you taken then?
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Or was this your first?
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I've probably taken about five, maybe.
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And I was trying to think of my life in sabbaticals.
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And I think that actually, when I was younger, I didn't give a thought to just tagging it on as extra holiday and just took it as travel.
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I went to India, I went to China and Asia, and thought of it as kind of nice time to see, meet people and find out about places.
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Kind of vaguely thinking, oh, maybe I'll write something, but I don't think I ever did.
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And then as later, I must have tagged it on maternity leave if we're allowed to do that.
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Then I did do more constructive things like little side projects, writing projects, or maybe do a course.
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I actually was meant to take it last year but completely forgot about it.
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No one says, Oh, Emma, you must take this extra four weeks off a year.
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I mean, that's kind of it's up to you to think about.
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If I took it this year and
Load full transcript
was owed it last year, I couldn't then take the next one in three years.
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Then it starts again four years on.
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With you.
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All right.
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So how do you prepare to have an extra four weeks off?
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Like what how does it how does it impact the rest of the team?
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Do you have to uh uh agree it with other people and they're gonna cover your regular staff?
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Yeah, you do, and each team will have different agreements, like some people don't like to have it over the summer holidays because obviously that's quite a difficult time.
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Everyone wants to take time off.
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So it's a negotiation, you know, and I've always prepared some pieces that can go when I'm away, so that kind of requires a bit of extra work in the run-up.
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It's like an ice holiday, basically.
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That's exactly what you do for a holiday.
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So I don't want to kind of overeg it.
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Totally.
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So go on, tell us, what did you do with this sabbatical?
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I didn't do very much actually.
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This is gonna sound like the most entitled thing ever.
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I got into a massive panic about it.
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When my friend saw it that I'd been on sabbatical, he works at another paper.
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He messaged me and he said, What you got four extra weeks off for free?
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And he said, I I got an extra day off to mark my 10-year anniversary, so I did feel very entitled at the end of it.
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So I got into a massive state thinking, right, I've got to really use this properly.
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I'm gonna go traveling on my own for a couple of weeks, and then I couldn't get that together, and then I kept thinking, Oh no, I feel really bad if I'm going away.
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And then I thought, oh, I've got to do something serious, but actually I felt burnt out, and I'm giving you the inside track on what it's like.
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I love this because it's real, and then I thought, actually, so this is the first year in a long time that my stepdaughter, who is gonna turn 20 in December, hasn't come away with us, and so I thought, my son is 14.
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Do you know what?
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I'm just gonna try and enjoy hanging out with my son when he lets me.
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And so we went away.
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We did some house swaps, which is something we've been doing for a few years.
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I didn't do anything worthwhile, I think.
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I mean, I would I don't know.
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I read some books.
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Yeah.
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Parenting is just not worthwhile.
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Depends on the day of the week, it depends of the the point in our hormonal cycle, it depends what's going on with them.
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Where did you go then?
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Where did you holiday?
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Oh, honestly, this sounds so pathetic.
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I don't know.
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Have you ever done a home exchange before?
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No.
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So it's something we've been doing in the last few years where we went away, we went as a family, we went interailing.
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We went to this really lovely resort in Spain that was very well known for its restaurants.
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But we were staying in a hotel and we just realized that we couldn't actually afford to eat in any of the restaurants, and we were having these quite sort of sad little picnics, trying to kind of excite the children by saying, Look, we're going to this woodland in the hill again at night, and or look, look at all this room we've got sitting round one bed in the hotel.
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And so my partner was just like, Let's do a home exchange because then we won't have to pay for accommodation.
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And I was quite reluctant because I just didn't want people staying in my house, and then we did it, and we went near Sitchers for the first year.
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It was good.
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I mean, we just gave us more money, and we were living in the centre of town and had this cash, and it was quite nice, you know, to have local recommendations.
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I I guess it's a bit like Airbnb was before, and so we've had some nice swaps, and this year we were just prevaricating too long, so we went to Normandy and we went to near Alicante.
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What has it done for your relationship with your son?
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And I'm not asking you to overeg it, but I'm just I'm curious if you've got that extra time, like what what good has come out of you being gifted that time away?
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I mean, I couldn't give you tangible KPIs.
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No, I don't need KPIs.
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I mean, I don't know whether he got anything out of it.
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I really like spending time with him, and he is quite sporty, so he's now spending quite a lot of time at his sports out of school.
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So it's really just you know, I'm not actually overlapping with him as much as I used to, and I quite mourned that period.
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And so we took a friend of his away for a week, a really
lovely boy we've known since primary school, and I thought, oh god, he's gonna be stuck with his parents for the next three weeks, and actually it was fine.
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It was I mean, not fine, it he was quite relaxed, and it was just bumbling around, actually, without you've got to get here, you've got to do that.
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So that's what I enjoyed really.
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We went to the gym a lot in Normandy.
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That is basically it.
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There was just nothing very exciting about these places.
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Yeah, but just bumbling around is where we can have the time to just be because it's not about having to go and see a particular thing, it's just more time together, isn't it?
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And I this afternoon I went and had some reflexology with a lovely lady whose eldest has just gone off to university, he's gone to Warwick, and it's going really, really well.
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And she said, I went to see him last weekend, and just more connection with him than ever.
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He's really happy.
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And I think so many parents, when their kids are little, feel bad that they're not spending more time with their children.
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But actually, when you look back, so obviously I've got a 20-year-old and 18-year-old, look back and I think it's often the teenage years where I think they want you more or need you more, and you've just had that lovely spacious time to have conversations, to be together as much or as little as you both wanted.
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And I think that's such a gift from the FT that you had that.
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Yeah, I mean, I am very lucky.
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You know, I sometimes I see on LinkedIn, and I and it is a real problem when your kids are young that you just feel so tired, and then you have these kind of holidays that are there's sometimes they can be a bit of an endurance, like you know, you kind of you have to kind of make sure the kids are happy.
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Certainly, ice cream is part of it.
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It's like if they're happy, then you're more happy.
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I mean, that doesn't obviously change, but it's just different.
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Like you can ignore them if you know they're not in danger if they're grumpy or something.
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I think as you get older and the kids get older, you kind of think, oh, they're gonna go away, which is true, but it's also like hanging out or forging a connection, or I hope the kids don't listen to this because they would die, but but you know what I mean?
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It's like it's just yeah, it's just doing normal, boring things rather than kind of having these kind of crazy times together.
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Me and my son went to a music festival afterwards when we came back, and I really I really enjoyed it.
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You know, when they're little, you get a lot of joy because they're so cute and funny, but when they're older, you kind of get more kindred ship, I guess.
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Is that what kinship?
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I love it.
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And I was thinking as you were talking, I was thinking maybe Emma and I segue now into a conversation about endurance holidays.
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I mean, I remember for so many years crying on most holidays because my eldest neurodivergent and going away on holiday could just lead to loads of stress, being in a new place, and just finding it so bloody difficult.
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And I don't think we're very honest about holidays actually with kids.
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So appreciate you saying what you've said.
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Go on, you're gonna say something.
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You know, no, there was a dad at primary school, they had three young kids, and I think they'd always go away for a week on their own, and he was just like, It's not a holiday if the kids come, is it?
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And I was like, Well, you've said it, but it's true to some extent.
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Everyone's Instagram holidays look amazing.
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We need more honesty about holidays, I think, on Instagram.
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All right, we've mentioned the word LinkedIn twice.
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What's your take on LinkedIn at the moment?
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Do you know what?
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I'm quite getting into it.
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I know this is going to sound bad, but I'm quite into the idea that it's just a hobby and that I should stop feeling guilty about wasting so much time on social media, and that includes LinkedIn.
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And I think when in the olden days I used to spend too much time on Twitter, now I spend time on Blue Sky, LinkedIn sort of the thing that I've done which is helped, has been just talking about complete shit, films I've watched or TV.
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In the end, I sort of started doing this newsletter, which is every two weeks, and it is just things that I've watched or read or seen, and uh who's interested in this?
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But it has led to some better conversations, and that's with some colleagues at work that I bump into in the kitchen and they say I agree, I watched that, and then so we don't have to do small talk in different ways, and then other contacts that I've met have been through plays and stuff like that.
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So that has really helped actually.
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And what's happening with your posts?
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As in what kind of reach are you getting and comments and stuff?
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I actually find the more inane I am, the better reach I get.
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That's very interesting.
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And when you say topped it.
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Be inane.
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All right, you heard it here from an FT journalist.
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Be inane on LinkedIn, it will help you.
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I think the people that do well are the ones that can take themselves very seriously, and I find it really difficult.
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And actually, I do want to write about this at some point is how to get over the cringe factor because I think if you can do that, then you get some success.
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But I just it's the earnestness and the lessons from everything.
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It has changed, not everything's like a humble brag in the same way that it was, or you know, I helped a homeless person, and this is why I've pivoted to a fintech unicorn.
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I think that people do well if they're kind of giving lessons about what they've learned and insights.
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Just sometimes when I see people's comments under posts that I think are really inane, and they're equally inane or gushy, I just think, what the fuck is going on?
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Yeah, well, it well, you saying what the F is going on, I'm thinking sort of about the tech bros messing with my mind.
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Yeah.
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Because I find myself thinking, what do I have to do to get the reach that I used to have?
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And I find myself thinking in terms of posts for Instagram and LinkedIn when I go to something, when I've worked with someone that they felt that that coaching session we've had has been particularly helpful.
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It's sort of like, oh, what's the lesson that I can pull out here that I can share that the LinkedIn algorithm will reward me for?
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And I just don't know what it is, Emma.
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And so I feel like my head is being messed with not understanding what it is that I have to do.
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Is it a long post?
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Is it a short post?
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Someone once told me, well, make it sound like it was ages ago, this was not that long ago.
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I read something about how you need to make sure you are talking about things that are in your bio.
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So you must own, you've got to stay in your lane and just talk about things that are in your bio.
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And I just don't know what I need to do.
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And I'm grateful to the likes of, say, Cindy Gallup for one, for starting to question LinkedIn being biased in
favour of men and what's going on.
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Though I haven't seen any posts from Cindy recently.
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And actually, now I think about it, there's loads of women that I haven't seen recently on LinkedIn.
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Although one thing I am pleased about is I'm seeing less AI written posts than I was, and whether that's that I'm just not seeing them or whether people have stopped doing them, you know, it's really long posts about things that I've learned.
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You're like, you haven't written that from the heart or your head.
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No.
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You've just put some prompts into Chat GPT and it's turned out a load of shit and it's boring.
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Stop.
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I don't understand why people aren't saying, but make it short, or you know, that is something you could add into your AI prompt.
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I just don't understand why they're making it so long.
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I have written a piece that will come out at some point about LinkedIn as a kind of content creator platform, and I think that some people do really, really well.
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And I mean, I'm sure you take yourself seriously.
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I take myself seriously at some extent, but I think it's the ones that do extract quite lessons, insights into their working life, and you have to study your posts really hard to kind of make it work.
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There are some accidental viral moments, you can never tell what's gonna work sometimes, but then I think you have to make it into a bit of a science.
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And who has the time for that?
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I've not got the time, I've not got the interest.
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What are you writing about?
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What's interesting you right now?
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I'd like to write about people that are resisting AI.
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Everything is about AI at the moment.
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I'd also like to write about people that are becoming content creators in these kind of professional spaces, that that is kind of a I think it's a job.
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You have to kind of devote time to it as if it's a kind of part-time job to go back to the LinkedIn conversation.
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I don't think you can just kind of toss it off anymore.
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I mean, you can sometimes and you'll have success, but you know, whether you've got the time or inclination to do that is another matter.
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And then I've written something on regretful parents.
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I don't know when this is coming out.
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I think that'll come out next week, actually.
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So
I don't know, I've got a list of things that I'd like to do, but AI is dominating the work.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.480
Tell us a little bit about regretful parenting.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:56.960
So it's just really how that well, how social media has kind of given a space to that kind of thought, airing the sort of darkest thoughts of your life, which are parental regret, I guess.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:05.119
As in having children or regrets about the way that one is parenting or, you know, interacting with our kids.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.079
You regret the way that you parent every other day, don't you?
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:15.119
My friend used to say that was the good thing about toddlers, is they forget, but it's regretting having kids.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.440
Yeah, all right, that'll be an interesting piece.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.000
I'll just for the record, that's not me.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.200
No, Emma does not regret it ever.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:24.000
No.
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:25.440
All good.
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:37.519
I'm thinking about, you know, I mentioned to you that I'm doing this gathering for HR leaders around preparing for the mandatory gender action plans that are coming in along with gender pay gap reporting.
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.880
Have you looked at that at all?
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.160
Have you got a take on that?
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.279
You know how one of the actions has to be around the menopause?
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:48.319
I mean, I've got thoughts about menopause, but I don't know what are people saying to you about that?
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:54.000
Well, people aren't saying very much at the moment because it's not sort of front and centre at the moment.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.200
That legislation comes in for employers with over 250 employees next April.
00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:10.960
And that's why I'm hosting this gathering for HR people to come together and think about like just sharing stories peer-to-peer, because I'm of the view that we don't really want this to be a tick box exercise.
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:24.079
We want businesses to be creating meaningful action plans that really do mean it is easier for women who carry the lion's share on average of the caring load.
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.440
And let's face it, 80% of women will become parents.
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.400
So being a parent is a big thing in the context of work.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:38.799
I really want to see businesses put together plans that are meaningful, help retain women, and fuel women's careers.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:40.960
And so that's why I'm doing the gathering.
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.440
And I have got some thoughts about the menopause piece.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.200
You know, I can see why it's included, but I mean, I'm really getting into the weeds now.
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.400
I was a locally elected politician 2015 to 2019.
00:20:52.640 -->
00:21:03.279
Got a little bit of insight into how Westminster works because at one stage I thought I might want to get on the do the parliamentary assessment board and for my party and become an MP.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:10.000
And the menopause thing is really interesting to me because I think there have been lots of people lobbying really, really hard.
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:17.839
And the government, I don't know whether you know this, have these things called APPGs or party parliamentary groups on particular things.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:22.400
So there's an APPG on women in work, and then they have these themed meetings.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:31.119
And I think people that have got a vested interest in the menopause lobbied really hard, say to the government, you need to be doing something to help women through the menopause.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:42.079
And so the Equalities Office has come out and said, you have got to, on these mandatory action plans, gender action plans, you have got to include something on the menopause.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:49.519
And yet there is nothing, so saying, on the there's a sort of list of suggested actions, but one of them has to be about the menopause.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:59.359
And there's nothing on that list as a suggested action around the support that businesses give to women when they're coming back from maternity leave, which is sort of a pivotal moment in anyone's career.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:05.200
And yet Menopause piece has been mandated that there must be an action around the menopause.
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:14.559
So I'm just sort of I've been thinking about the machinations of government and how easy it can be to sway things, but I'm not saying it's not right to have something on that.
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:19.039
I am not saying that, listener, because clearly it's great that there's been a great awakening.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:26.079
However, your colleague Helen Rumbelow over at The Times wrote that piece.
00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:44.799
And I'm not even going to try and quote her because I can't remember what was in it, but she was questioning the wisdom of having this mandated action around the menopause because she cited some research, I think, from an Australian scientist around how the menopause isn't actually the data isn't showing that women are massively affected.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.119
I mean, I'll have listeners screaming at me, I'm not saying this is my view.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.119
I'm take up the mantle, Emma.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.240
Did you read Helen's piece?
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:54.000
Do you know the research that I'm referring to?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:23:00.079
I did, and I've felt very conflicted over the, I mean, it sounds like you're conflicted too, over the last few years.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:05.680
Is like I cannot tell you how many emails I get about menopause awareness in the workplace.
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:07.839
I have written
about it a few times.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:18.400
I do feel like it has been massively important to shine a light on something that women could be really ignorant about because that just wasn't talked about.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:20.640
Doctors are really patchy.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:30.240
I mean, it's massively a lottery whether you get a good doctor or one that gives you antidepressives or dismisses it or whatever.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.200
So that is obviously really important.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:24:02.640
It's important to have accommodations if you need them at work, not be able to give someone a fan, or you know, there was a moment where I was meant to do a panel, and I just thought in the last whatever years I've had terrible brain fog, and I just thought I was having such a problem that I just thought, I just wonder whether I should just back out at this point because I just couldn't remember the words for things like work or whatever the topic was that I was meant to talk about.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.559
But I did it and it was fine.
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:17.279
We often talk about menopause forcing women out of work as if it's a kind of, well, A, it's a medical problem, and B, you know, they're kind of falling out of work as if it's a sort of weird quirk of fate.
00:24:17.680 --> 00:25:06.640
And I know that some women are having terrible times with symptoms that are really incompatible with kind of regular working hours, but there are also a lot of other things that are happening, you know, aging parents coming to a point in their career where they might be overlooked because there's younger people coming up behind them, a sort of feeling that they're more expensive if they're lucky enough to be in that position, and that maybe cheaper younger people will be better off doing their jobs, and just this kind of confluence of circumstances, and also men have these problems too, you know, that men are also dealing with aging parents or being overlooked or being forced out, and so we sometimes when you look at some of the data, you don't see that men aren't that far behind.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:22.400
And I just sort of I feel like we're medicalizing this kind of problem and also making women's bodies a kind of thing to be discussed in the workplace, which I'm not entirely happy about because it's seems quite old-fashioned in a way and intrusive.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:33.279
Well, I tell you what I want, and it's something that I've been banging on about for 20 years, and it's simply a bit more empathy, but from line managers, just to understand what's going on for each of your team.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.000
Exactly.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.480
Yeah, just know what's going on in your direct reports' lives.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:45.039
Ask them, look, is there anything that you think is within my gift that I can reasonably do to help you at this point in time?
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:54.559
And usually most people will say, Well, actually, and then they'll tell you a small thing that you can do as the line manager that you can permit, which might be a little bit more work from home.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:26:02.880
It might be, let me come in a bit later on a Friday because I need to go and, you know, go and have a review with my mother's at-home care company or something.
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:15.759
That a bit of empathy, a bit of interest in your direct reports, and then let's just make some changes that allow that direct report to give their best at work, keep their own head together, keep their health together, and keep their family together.
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:24.000
And that sort of sits right across whatever is going on in different families and in different bodies and different minds, is just let's have a bit of empathy.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:25.920
And then I suppose I've already talked about this.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.400
The other big thing is flexibility.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:32.799
Let's trust people and give people as much flex as we can.
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.440
So we keep people in work.
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:41.200
Particularly, you've talked about women in your sandwich generation who got children, got aging parents.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.720
And I think the age of first-time motherhood is at 31.8.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:48.799
It might just have made 32 years.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:27:01.359
Well, if that's the age of the average age of first-time motherhood, you've got a 16-year-old when you're 48, perimenopause, GTSEs, you've probably got a parent who's has got some needs.
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:02.799
It's really, really difficult.
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:09.200
And I feel so, so passionate and angry and committed to keeping women in work.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:17.200
And I think we just need more flexibility, we need more job shares, we need it to be possible to do really senior roles, let's say on four days a week.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.559
And actually, Emma, I've just done an episode of the podcast that's come out today.
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:25.759
Listeners were recording this on the 22nd of October, with a business called Tyler Grange.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.240
They're a B Corp where everybody works four days a week and gets paid for five.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:41.279
Yes, they're an outlier, might not work for all businesses, but they're shining a light on what can be done, and they've got a really big proportion of women in leadership positions.
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:43.920
And at this point, I'm going to do a quick sing out for Dr.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:44.720
Lucy Riot.
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:47.920
And are you familiar with her work, her book, Revolting Women?
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:48.799
No, I'm not.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:49.920
Oh, take a look.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.480
She's great.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:52.640
So she wrote a book called Revolting Women.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.799
I think the subtitle is Why Midlife Women Are Walking Out, or something like that.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:58.720
Don't quote me because that might be wrong.
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:04.640
But essentially, it's the write-up, the sort of popular version of her thesis, of her doctorate.
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:16.319
And the standout stat from her research is that 70% of midlife women are not wanting to downgrade or step out.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.640
They actually want to accelerate their career.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:27.279
So she's done some really good work around busting this myth that women in their late 40s, 50s, maybe even 60s want to downgrade because they just don't.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:31.599
And we know that keeping people in work is really good for people's health.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:38.799
And one of my professional bodies, the BPS, the British Psychological Society, the member magazine this week is devoted to ageing.
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:49.279
And there's a really nice piece about unretirement in there, and talking about just all these positive markers when people stay in work longer.
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.160
So I just, yeah, that's me off on one Emma.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.119
No, no, I agree.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:59.920
I just I guess with all these things, I just feel like there's a certain group of people that have made a career out of it.
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:09.759
Or if they're actresses, they've now got products to flog, like menopausal creams or whatever, menopausal vests, or anything really.
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:12.240
And I just feel like menopausal vests.
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:14.559
I think I think that's what the hell is that?
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.440
I think MS did a range of menopausal clothing or something.
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:36.720
I just think they're obviously doing well for whoever gets behind it and kind of makes it a thing, but I guess everything has to be a thing these days, and menopauses become some people's things, which is not to denigrate it or undermine any symptoms that people have.
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:44.319
But it's just that, you know, as you say, lots of people need accommodations for all sorts of the things that you expect.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:52.960
I mean, certainly having small children is really physically knackering, and broken sleep while you're trying to work is really bad.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:01.440
But you know, things happen to people in their lives throughout the whole working life, and you can't plan it.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:33.599
And you know, and that's one of the things that friends that have become managers say is that suddenly their eyes are revealed to the kind of mess of people's home lives that they weren't necessarily privy to before, and it's just like people have a lot to deal with, which isn't to say that your employer is your counsellor, you know, you're there to work and people want to work, but it's sort of like it could be
menopause, it could be because you've got an adult sibling that needs help, or you know, you just have no idea what's going on in people's lives.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:50.160
And I agree, I think that women, I met a vicar a few months ago that was saying that really the Church of England relies on empty nester women, women that have decided that they want a new push in their life, and so that's given them a new direction.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:31:16.000
And so the idea that women, if they've had particularly if they've had children, but not just children, you know, are ready to slow down, or actually it might be the time that they're gearing up, and also because only a few people can become the CEO or the editor or whatever it is at the top of the organization, it just means giving people at all stages of their life new opportunities to learn new skills and do new things, I guess.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:16.799
Agreed.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.359
And I'm putting you on the spot now, and you can totally pass.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:39.440
But I'm just wondering, going back to this thing about mandatory gender action plans, have you got a view on things that you think would make the biggest difference to attracting and retaining and fueling women's careers from the people that you interact with and the things that you've written about?
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.759
I think just giving people opportunities.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.440
It's not making assumptions about people's life phases.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:52.640
I've heard of women not being given business trips because they've got young kids or not given the opportunity to step up.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:00.319
You know, you just don't know maybe their partner wants to step down, or maybe their parent comes to live with them and fills in the childcare gap.
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:02.319
You know, you just don't know what people want.
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:10.720
So it's to have proper conversations with people and give people just the opportunity to develop and learn new skills, I guess.
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:12.240
Yeah, no good shout.
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:23.119
So what you're saying there is let's not make assumptions, let's not, you know, problem solve four people and think, well, no, you've got a problem there that can't be solved because you've got young kids, therefore you're not going to go and travel.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:25.920
No, let's not make assumptions, let's offer the opportunities.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:41.119
And bringing this back to sabbaticals, what would you say to someone who is wondering about taking a sabbatical and any points you would offer to people about how to prep for one or how to come back for it?
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:45.200
I know yours was relatively short, but sometimes people have much longer sabbaticals.
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:48.160
I just think it's kind of know yourself, really.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:52.960
And I think I got into a kind of
tailspin about having to be productive.
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.440
I did do a bit of thinking.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:03.680
I mean, what what the opportunity to not work and not do those things, you don't take maternity leave to re-evaluate your life.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:11.359
To step away from work, the kind of grind of that does give you a kind of time to think about what you want to do.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:16.720
I think you have to kind of try and lean into knowing the kind of person you are.
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:25.599
If you are not the kind of person that really wants to learn a language and go overseas for three months to do it, then accept that.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:26.880
Know thyself.
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:33.279
Do you think your writing's changed at all because you took that time out?
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:40.880
I don't want you to stretch and say that it has or I'm just wondering, you know, is there any any sort of other benefits that link back to your professional life because you took it?
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:51.759
I think four weeks is too short a time, but I always have ideas, like I keep a kind of running list of ideas to have, and obviously the more different experiences.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:34:04.319
I mean, sometimes you can sit down and have an idea because you're forced to, but often different ideas come to you when you're not, it's like the shower idea or whatever, going for a walk, but it's so it's being taken out of your normal.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:09.440
So the the more exposure you have to different things is kind of stimulating, I guess.
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:15.280
I have had ideas about things I'd like to do, which I'm not gonna say, but it hasn't changed my writing.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:21.679
The only thing I did think was that I do write a lot of ideas down and I don't do anything with them.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:33.119
So I thought actually, I haven't done it because I've had a stressful period recently, but I did think that I would use LinkedIn occasionally to work out some of those ideas for myself.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:44.000
It doesn't matter that no one's necessarily reading them, but it's a kind of halfway house between committing to print or the website and just storing it on my Google Docs.
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:52.800
It's a test bed, and it's like you're building in public, you're testing something out and seeing if it sticks, if it's of interest.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:06.239
And I suppose in the comments you might find people that you think right, they are the people that I might want to bring into the piece to bring it alive to have as expert commentary or as the sort of case study.
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.119
So I think that's a really smart use of LinkedIn.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:12.079
And on that happy note, Emma, thank you.
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:21.199
I've really enjoyed our freewheeling chats about LinkedIn, sabbaticals, kids and holidays and the menopause and gender action plans.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:22.400
So thank you, Emma.
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:23.760
Thank you very much.
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.320
So there we have it, a very freewheeling conversation.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.440
And I hope that you've got something from listening to my chat with Emma.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:41.920
And if you would like me to do more experiments with freewheeling chats with people about work and careers beyond the conversations I usually have about returning to work, then please do tell me.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:53.039
And you can email me jc at talentkeepers.co.uk or find me on Instagram at comebackcomuk, and there are links in the show notes to both of those things.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:36:05.679
And if you would like to join the gathering that I mentioned about gender action plans for HR leaders that's happening in central London on Tuesday, the 24th of November, 2026, then please email me.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:12.639
And you can also find out more about the executive coaching work my colleagues and I do at talentkeepers.co.uk.
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.440
And until next time, stay bright.