บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Nature Friendly Livestock Farmers Part 2 : Ponies and tradition with Charlie and Gina Parker

planted a hedge there and so my better part of it is all separate, three separate pieces now. But smaller, better to manage and once my hedges are established it'll be wonderful really I think. Yeah, when did the hedges go in? They're quite young aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're all, I've planted my hedges without any plastic shelters. I saw that. So you put chicken wire down? Rabbit net. Yeah, I've double fenced it with stocknet and then put rabbit net on the stocknet. Yeah. Folded it out. I haven't dug it in. We used to dig it in in the old days. So you just laid it like a foot or so at the bottom. Yeah, a foot or so out and it down. The grass soon kind of grips it. After 12 months the grass has knitted it in. You can't get it out. So yeah, I didn't want to use any plastic at all. Yeah. And I wanted to do it the old fashioned way. Yeah. You know, I've been a forester for 55 years. I wanted to do it the old-fashioned way and I did it the old-fashioned spacing as well. 18 inch apart the rows and the plants 18 inch apart. That's the old spacing. So that's a bit wider than modern stone. Yeah it is. I think the planting them too close nowadays. A plant needs room to bush and grow and we're not using plastic at the bottom. They'll be bushier down to the ground. So that's why I've and rabbit knitted it all. Some folks say you can't keep rabbits, I don't know what you do, but you can. Well, we did some planting this year, about 700 meters of hedging. I haven't put plastic on and I haven't rabbit netted it. We have a few rabbits, but not too many. And I walk around those plants in its early days, they might still find them, but they haven't taken any yet. They do make healthier plants, don't they? We did some planting for our higher level stewardship scheme, or so years ago, tree planting. And we took the tubes off about five years ago and a lot of the trees fell over. Yeah, they were real. And they were weak and there was all kind of bits coming out the bottom, like trying to sprout from the bottom. But the trees that had... Well, they got through that or, you know, that hadn't had a tube. There were much better trees. I was never in favour of these tubes when they were first brought out. You know, my old forester boss, wouldn't, you know, he were dead by then, but they wouldn't have been in favour. It's forcing a wonderful thing of nature far too early on in life. Right. I think anyway. It makes them grow like hell when they're out of but they are vulnerable to wind throw. And the tubes get blown up. It takes the plants to help. And the litter. They don't get taken out do they? I know you're supposed to after however many years. should be taken off and collected up and disposed of properly. But yeah, it is a problem I think that, like there's a lot of hedges gone in round doors. Like sometimes perfectly good hedges have been ripped out just to put new ones in. And they're just kind of collecting the grant money, really. But that's kind of,

there's no long term kind of... investment in it as well as you know they put them in they collect the money and then what happens to them they don't maintain they don't maintain them like they should be and they don't mind you know but obviously you've got the a kind of forestry background yeah maybe that changes your luck on those it does yeah you know when in my early days of being a forestry and fencing contractor down at yorkshire dales i did quite a few tree planting grant jobs through the yorkshire dales national park and I've seen it you do that you fancy you plant them and they're not maintained properly and it breaks your heart really to see you know even one one block was even taken out because that property had been sold and it was you know it was the people just took it took the plants out it was no longer a shelter belt yeah you know it's just disheartening it is yeah it's frustrating planting trees and there's voles, rabbits, hares, sheep. know, everything wants to eat them if they can. And it's a soul, it can be a soul destroying job. So, yeah, that's why I rabbit netted. Maybe I needn't have rabbit netted them all, but we do have a few rabbits about, you know, they never get too common, you know. much of nuisance. It looks like the plants are thawing. Yeah they are, they're coming on now. Did you put your wool stuff down didn't you? Yeah, down my drive side I've planted a holly edge and it's a bit slow coming and I've had trouble with field voles nipping, nipping, well debarking them around the bottom, the hollies. I am struggling getting them established. They are coming on now but I've had bit trouble with them Do think that's because you used the wool? No, I used the wool mats just on the Hollies this last time They're not out of wool and they're only thin but... I've seen them, like little kind of... 18 inch square, yeah. Yeah. And I've done them to give the holly a bit more time and just to keep the grass down more from round them. I hand-weigh them every year. do you? Them hollies I do, yeah. Right, yep. But I haven't weighed my hawthorn and my blackthorn and my other edges. And they've taken well, like. Yeah. They have. Yeah. They are pretty hardy aren't they, the whole thorns and black thorn. So yeah, the hullies, they're taking a bit of time to get established purely because of the voles really. I mean, I have barn owls about and they are keeping on top of them I think now. have a barn owl too, pair of barn owls nesting in barn in a box. We've just had a camera up for them this last month and they are feeding young. So that's great stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the joys of lambing, think, is going out early and they really screech at you, don't they? Yeah, do. They're really noisy. do screech. And at night you can hear them. were a while, when they first came, you were a while, weren't Because you went in and didn't you go up the ladder? I could hear it pissing at me I had these rails stacked on top of its outside

wall and they were at back of that and they could see you, but you couldn't see them Yeah, and the silent you can't even when they're you can't even when we just suddenly, this big screech. Yeah, Wonderful bird. Yeah. Well, that's good. So they're taking some of the voles. Yeah. Yeah. I think voles often go on a kind of boomer bus cycle. Yeah, two years ago, two summers ago, my barn house disappeared. Right. About germ time. And I think they'd sort of gone on top of walls and nothing else to eat and they'd disappeared. There was three of them at that time. Yeah. A pair and one young one, I think. And they all disappeared. Anyway, they came back last summer. And they've been here all winter and they're fading young now. Great. So that's. Wonderful. And have you seen an increase in wildlife generally? yeah. Curlew, Lapwing, Oystercatchers, Snipe, Redshank. Yeah. Snap, I've said sniper and Woodcock, even Woodcock are nesting on the allotment at 1200 foot above sea level in the rushes. Right. And I always thought they were a woodland bird. Yeah. And I've been amazed since I've been here that they come up here and they nest up here. Yeah. Great. They all all them way it is nest here and they get monitored by RSPB every three years. Yeah. which is quite helpful to see how they're doing. But we are surrounded by two grouse moors and I have to give a lot of credit to the gamekeepers for keeping the vermin down. Because them way the birds wouldn't do as well as they are doing here. They are thriving, the way the birds are here. But it's with the help of lack of carrion crows, foxes. And do you you're... do you make hay generally? silage making is also big threat to them isn't it? Like cutting too early. cutting too early. with my HLS I can't cut till the 15th of July. And I've two traditional hay medders which I've got back to hay medders since coming here. through doing nothing special, only farming it different to what it was farmed. and so with plenty of yellow rattle in me medies. that was just there was it? Well did you introduce it? No I haven't introduced it. It's just come back gradually. The white clover came back gradually and that was abundance was white clover and then the red clover has come after the white clover. So it's been interesting. You know, as I say, I don't use fertilizers, so it's all been naturally done and I haven't introduced anything. Yeah. Yeah. We've got some hay meadows and we saw exactly the same. So we changed the practice. So you take the stock off kind of about this time. Yeah. Yeah. Don't go back until mid July, often it's later because you don't get a convenient window to cut on the 15th of July. But yeah, it's amazing that we didn't introduce anything. But now we've got tons of yellow at all. Loads of bed straws. Loads of different things. And it must, I presume, either blew in or it was just sitting in the soil, just waiting. was allowed to come back, wasn't it, really? Yeah. Which is really nice. Which is a really... Which is proof that you don't need to re-wild. to get nature back. I've proved it here and one or two other farmers have proved it in the area and I'm not a fan of all this rewilding. Well I think I can see an argument for some bits that are very very unproductive just to let them But there's a big bit in the middle that's, I guess you'd call it marginal, where both can coexist. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, that's what we say too. We've got great partridge here as well. In abundance really now. They've come back in with me here. With four Covey's residents and a 125 acre. we often get them at yard. we do. or 8 or 10 sometimes in a group will just wander around the yard here picking little bits up and if you go outside they'll fly up and away but they don't go that far they're pretty sort of it's just them you know but yeah it's good to see them isn't it? And I know you won an award. quite recently for you. Yeah, Nature Friendly Farming Award, yeah, through North Pennines AONB, well, North Pennines National Landscapes it is now. Yeah, so we're highly delighted with that. Yeah, three years ago. Four, I think. Four is a time that goes on, doesn't it? Yeah, certificates in there. nice to be recognized. I was reading up on it and the judges were kind of really impressed with the way you've taken the care of planting the trees. I think they highlighted that. I think it goes back to what we were saying before that some people just put them in to collect the grant money. Whereas if you... see the benefit of having them and you win it for the long term. All my standard trays I put in, I put in towards 100 altogether in 4 foot square tray guards, post and rail tray guards and I go round them every year and I prune them if I think they need pruning and I just make sure they're right in every way so I maintain them every year. Maybe sometimes twice a year, but definitely once a year. I get great pleasure from doing that. And do you think that's your forestry training? It is definitely, yeah. So how do think we can get that? Because for a long time, I kind of... was quite intimidated by forestry in some ways. was on one side of the fence and the farm was on the other side. Very much so. And it had a different kind of terminology, different kind of vocabulary, different kind of skills. we were new entrant farmers, so we were kind concentrating on the farming. But in the last few years, I've kind of bridged that a bit more. But how do you think you can get other farmers to do that? Do you think there is a divide? Yeah, there was a divide, definitely. When I was younger, yeah. There was. I don't know whether it's just as bad now. I think some of the problem as well is that... It's trying to, we go back again to maintaining old skills, isn't it? It's keeping those old skills. It's teaching the new people that are in forestry or whatever and in farming or whatever. Although progress is fantastic and there's a lot of labour saving devices and

everything else which is wonderful, however, those old skills still need to be at the forefront of everything they should be doing. And I think this is the problem because you get a certain age group like say Charlie now. that we need that knowledge spreading more. Because the knowledge that, say, Charlie has, he could teach a lot of younger end people, and some older people as well, so much about the forestry side. it's you know and and sometimes you've been disillusioned with some work you've seen in places haven't you when you've done things and clearfeld and things like this and you've been you've been sort of you know you know that's not how we'd have been allowed to do it you know what i mean and then and i think it's it's you know when those skills have gone with that generation of person they've they've gone forever haven't they and the need passing down and i think there's a There's a first for that knowledge if the logistics can only be put into place that people can be available to. I mean you've always advised other folk haven't you? Give advice if you've been asked yeah, yeah, but it's getting people to ask the questions It's it's been able to when to see it in practice as well. I think I think that's quite important Charlie's always same He gets asked to buy the your lot don't it the Pennines lot. Yeah, you know bring people here Because they want to see they want them to see what he's done with the edges with the planting of the trees with the and this that and the other and you've always said yes bring them haven't you and you've never you know you've always been happy to share what knowledge you have yeah and I'll answer a few questions and a few silly questions yeah yeah you know yeah well you know and every day is a school day yeah so nobody knows everything but if you can pass that it's like you know sharing that bit of knowledge isn't it you know it's so important and Yeah, and there's so much you get out of the tree set. I laid about 300 meters of hedge the winter before last and I'd never done it before. And there was an old guy came and showed me what to do and I just kind of cracked on it. It was quite an old hedge and it was... But you had to be. From older edges, yeah. They are more difficult to do. yeah. it's nearly all survived, you know. And to see it of sprout back up has been really, really satisfying. And that kind of... And it's really nice winter work, actually. It kind of balances out some of the summer work on the farm. I mean new planted edges are easy to lay. Dead easy. But these old edges, if there's a lot of timber in them I think they're better off coppiced off bit bottom and let them sprout from them stumps, which they will do. And make use of your timber and you've always some brash. to make a dead edge of if you want for shelter for nature. But you know, if you don't want to do that, you know, you burn it or you chip it or whatever. going back to the forestry farming split. Yeah. I went to a forestry do a number of years ago when were at Clarks Hill and it. And there was very much. It was all forestry lads and they were very much against the farming farmers because of the money and the payments they get compared with forestry at that time. yeah. that quite surprised me because that that's never bothered me being in forestry and knowing what the farmers get and grants. It's never bothered me. So the grants are more generous for farming than they are for forestry. yeah. Yeah, yeah. They always have been. mean, yeah, there's more for forestry now. But back then, he would do things have altered a bit this last maybe 20 year but yeah there was a bit of grievance among a lot of forestry sector about the money that was put into grants for farming and but as I say that's never bothered me so you started as a forester yeah how did you kind of move into farming by moving further north and getting more for the money. I'm farming, I'm farming blood on both sides of my family. My mother's side were farmers and my father's side were farmers and butchers. And when I was at school, I always wanted to farm when I left school, but it didn't happen. I worked on a game farm, rearing farm for 15 months. And then I got this, I went into forestry on a private estate. and I was only on minimum agricultural wage and the money wasn't a concern for me. I really enjoyed it. No regrets about doing it. I did three months for a building construction firm before I went from the game farm to the forestry. So was on far better money building laboring than when I went on to estate. I took a pay cut, but it never bothered me at all. So you enjoyed the work? I enjoyed the work and yeah, far better. Suiting me far better. and having that farming blood in me, you know, I could, I was always, I never shied away from hard work. And yeah, I've totally enjoyed it. Worked on private estate for nine and half year under Head Forrester for seven years and then they retired. And then I took over as Head Forrester for two and a half years and then I got headhunted by a local contractor. So I went on for a year. took the customers with me that were on the estate. We used to sell a few fancy imports and a bit of product, but the estate didn't replace me, customers followed me from that estate, took contract and then I worked for a contractor for two years and then I went on my own. Just blossomed really. I was a local lad. I had good training on the estate really, good old-fashioned forestry training, which a lot of lads my age didn't get. They went straight from school, one or two that I know that... and went on for EFG, Economic Forestry Group and the standard of workmanship. What they were shown and what I was shown were two different things. When I worked on the estate I thought the Forestry Commission was the shopwinder of British forestry. But when I left it, I realised that the private estates are the shopwinder of British forestry. Definitely, without a doubt. Some folk would want to

stick a knife in me for saying it, but I don't care. It's my That's your experience. Yeah, it's experience, yeah. And for quality workmanship. Yeah. Yeah. And you also have Dale's ponies. Yeah. Which you use in the forestry. Yeah, used to use them in forestry, I used to do a lot of first thinning, soft wood and extract them all with ponies. They were brilliant, I've already tried. Yeah. Economical. I did have a remote controlled set of winches on a Unimog as well at the time but I should have gone into Pony's a bit earlier and not bother with winches really for extracting thinnings. I mean winches were alright for bigger stuff anyway but yeah the horse extraction was far more economical to do. in thinnings than winching. Do you think that's still the case then? Yeah, I I could keep three cutters going, three good lads with chainsaws cutting, felling and cutting and dressing out all day. I could keep three men going. With one horse? With one horse. With one dance pony. And is that on kind of difficult sites? Well, yeah, on commercial sites. I was using them commercially, really. So they were some were more difficult than others and some we had to extract it a bit further than others. But a lot of it was private estate work on private estates around the Kerrville-Onsel area. And because I was, you know, I private estate trained, so. And I never did any creaming as they call it by taking when I do your thinning, you don't take a tray out that should be left for to grow on and be a. And some for can do that, and it's called creaming. OK, but I had a good reputation for doing a good job thinning, you know, not creaming them. making a tidy job. So that would be the tip you take the kind of prime tree so you can sell it and get a bit of extra money is that what the cream Yeah yeah yeah yeah you see when you're thinning you should be taking all your misshaped trays your smaller trays out And it's all smaller timber as your first and second thinnings, well first is anyway. But I used to cut rustic for rustic garden furniture. a lad here used to take that off me to make rustic garden furniture. So I tried to waste nothing. Everything that was felled, it was used. And everything that was felled was brought out with ponies, cross cut and stacked at the conversion bay. So the wood was left tidy. is lot of waste wood left in, like there is nowadays with all this machinery. The stumps were really off by the floor. It does look ugly doesn't it? When they just go in with the big machines. looks like a lunar landscape. does, it's absolutely atrocious really. And the clear falling, like much nicer. It's tidy and much nicer. But to leave a few as well, to thin it out and then you've still got the wood left. A bit of light gets in and get different bits of wildlife coming in. Proper forestry on private estates is planting your crop with soft wood in rows but putting hardwoods amongst them for your final crop. That's proper forestry, not planting all softwood. So you're kind of planning a kind of a 20 year cycle and a 50 year cycle and a 100 year cycle all in one planting. So you're going on a crop like that, that's what we planted on estate and you go in with your first thinning, take softwoods out. the of it is that the softwoods will draw the hardwoods up. that's why they planted it about 20 foot apart, your hardwoods, you know, in rows. So after three or four thinnings, you've nearly got all your softwoods out, you say, so you're left with a hardwood crop. Instead, these... There's no wrong with these blocks of soft wood if they're thinned and they're managed properly but they're not managed they're just block planted and then they're left for 40 years and then clear felled. That's the problem. Bad management. and I guess the other aspect of that is it doesn't really provide many jobs does it? where if you're kind of thinning you can do a bit of thinning each year you can you know keep a man or two going yeah exactly you can yeah yeah and i guess that goes back to losing the skills doesn't it? And brushing is another thing that isn't done now in softwood crops. We used to go through and on a state and brush up to six foot high, everything, you know, brush tidy with your hand saw. We got onto using chainsaws eventually, but we used to brush with your hand saw. know, bit time when you've gone through and done that and it's left a year or two, then you're going for your do your first thinning, maybe four or five years later, all your brush you took off then has rotted away. and gone back into the soil. So you know again it makes it far more manageable and pleasant to manage by going in to do your first thinning. You know, every tree, you know, you can walk through your crop. farms you know people can If they're sensible, make a living off something smaller. It's amazing really that when you first started with the ponies there was a lot of people sort of thinking you're going backwards not forwards. Going back to horse power when you had your unimogs and all this lot. Going back to horses, what are doing? But you know, it's horses for courses, isn't it? And there's always a place for them. And probably as the years go on with the world being as it is, there might be more use for horses back on farms doing a bit and back in forestry doing a bit. Yeah. Well, you know, could turn a full circle yet. Yeah. Well, if you've got a machine, you know, you're dependent on fuel and parts. Whereas if you've got a horse. Yeah, exactly. more you use it, the better it gets. Exactly, that's what I've always said. The more you use it, the better it gets over years and years and years. Whereas the machine just gets worse and worse and worse, costs you more, repairs more. It's just, yeah, I've always said that right. And also it's interesting because, you know, people think of working horses as big, big cut horses, Clydesdals, Shayars, whatever. But doesn't have to be like that. And all these sort of farms around this area,

these hill farms, you know, a hundred years ago, they wouldn't necessarily have a Shire or a Clydesdale. They would have a Dale's Pony. So the Dale's Pony is native to this area. And they're kind of what, 14? 14-2. 14-2. Say 14 ants, 14-2. So a big, a big pony. Yeah, they're a larger pony. The larger pony. Top-ended ponies. And they're a heavy, active pony. Yeah. And they're very economical. strong. So you'd feed two Dale's ponies virtually to a Clydesdale or a Shire. Right. You could keep two Dale's ponies. And they could do as much work? They could do as much work. They'd do as much work. and do as much work in lot worse conditions than your heavies because your heavies are fairly soft really so your native ponies are always tougher and harder and you know that was proved all the years ago around these farms in like Teasdale and Weardale and what have you. you know, getting a lot of snow, real bad conditions in the winter, and the ponies would still get out and do their jobs. So, you know, and they would often keep two, as I say, because they could in comparison to a big heavy and they'd breed off one and that was a little bit of income and one would work and then vice versa the next year, so type of thing. And that's how they worked it. So there was a fall coming which gave them a bit of income. But most of the farms in the area would be worked by Dale's ponies of that type. 14 to 15 hands tops. What kind of work would they do then? They'd do all the farm work. I've got hair with mine. What cutting and turning? I haven't actually mown with mine but I have a scale that I have pictures of when I used it in Ingleton in the 80s. Now 90s and yeah, you know fashion with a scale. Yeah. Yeah, they'll do every job Yeah, you've a car that you know, I have a farm cat I've just had it That is a like a tip cat supposedly that you could take your muck out into the field and pull it out with a special fork in heaps. And they used to scale it by hand out of little heaps. And it also has a shilvings as we call it. That is a timber frame that goes onto it and for bringing in the hay. No, it's an Ingleton. When we lived in Ingleton that. You haven't used it here have you? No I haven't used it So I'm just looking at a photo of a, is that a Dale's pony? Yeah he's a part bred Dale's. He's a part bred. He's Dale's cross-pob. He's the first part bred Dale's we bred him. Yeah. he's yours? Yeah he was ours. Yeah we bred him. And he was a tremendous host for work. And just turning the hay? Yeah scaling the hay yeah. That's nice work isn't it? yeah he's just wondering yeah wondering behind the horse yeah yeah and he was a tremendous worker he would yeah they just love it they're just so more willing to work than a big heavy arse. Right. How long does it take to train them? Do you train them? Yeah I do I'm about well two months probably. Right. That's not every day. No, know. That's one. That's a different. That's a different pony. But that's. so that's pulling wood out of. Yeah, pulling. So it's called sniggings. That's a Cumbrian term. Snigging, Cumbrian term for extracting timber with horses. Yeah. And that is going out there on voice command only. Right. So you've got no contact? No. No rain at all? No. I go from two rains to one rain when they're to it and then you get them used to voice command and then they will eventually put your timber on and they'll go out the route to the conversion bay where they'll stop. Right. Where you have a man cross cutting the timber and stacking it. Great. But he was brilliant. was good at that. Well they all have been. was very good at it. He just knew his job didn't he? Once you got him He took a bit of getting going. He did take a bit of getting going. He wasn't. He was bit older when we bought him so he'd never done that before. We hadn't bred him and we bought him at nine year old and he was little bit cold-shouldered to start with. Sonya you can only see bit of the timber but that was up in Scotland. Yeah we were at Clarks Hill. Yeah we Clarks Hill. That's a hope not their own bred pony that's the wrong one. stocky strong things yeah yeah so you'd have to kind of take them you travel yeah yeah if I was going a fair distance we're born it extract I would try and leave them there somewhere either in a failure paddock or I would take an electric fence out of it and have them grazing overnight so could leave them rather than travel them every day. Sometimes you could leave them in wood, what you were working in, if there was a bit of grass on the edges or whatever. I always had them so I could tether them overnight if need be. They were always trained to do that as well. Yeah, yeah, they'll learn to do anything the more jobs you give them to do the better they like it keeps them sweet They never get sick of doing one job. Yeah, I thought they like a bit of variety. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah Like like us. Yeah. But I think that there is always a place for horses on ponies in that job. It's the handlers that you need. Good handlers. There's always a job for the ponies if you're a good handler that's willing to do it, isn't there Charlie? Because it's hard work. You're on your feet going up and down all day and it's hard work. And it's a commitment. It's commitment. know, and I think that the idea of the... you know, it's a lovely romantic sort of a way of going on. Goes out of the window on a really wet, muddy, horrible day. When you're plodging about through brass or whatever. I've come back absolutely wet through and shit up on it. Well I've got a photo, haven't I? Because one day you came back covered and I took a photograph because I said I've got to have a photograph of this before you get changed and it was just like covered. One really wet day and we were pulling out on a farm at Sock Earth in Inns and we had to cross this little stream. It was not much of a stream at all like but the stream came up higher and higher all day and I kept going all day and I was

absolutely piecewet through and shit up. But I kept going and you couldn't have kept going with a tractor. you don't make too much mess. And another job we did a lot of years ago we were fetching some larch windblown out onto a meadow, a lovely meadow that had been mooring, had fogged up again, lovely green grass and we were fetching this windblown larch out in pole length and we were cross-cutting it and stacking it in the meadow and at the end of the day The site was just black out of the wood in the field, black. We went back the following morning and it was just green again. There was no standing water, no damage whatsoever. And if you'd been on with a tractor, there'd have been two gut routes. Full of water. Yeah, there was just no damage and it looked pretty grim at night when we finished We just were heaps of wood stacked all nice and tidy and clean But the the ground was all black but the next morning it was just green again Like a fortnight after you've been in Woodwich, you can't tell we've been in. All you have is bit of scarifying, which is nothing at all. You've no roots, no channels, nothing like. The way things are going in the world, they talk about all this eco-friendly and all this lot. There's a lot to be said for the horsepower really. Being cleaner and greener. A lot to be said for it really. Anything else you'd like to say? is four ponies that we've bred that are out there pulling timber like. With two different operators. ponies that you've bred are still working? Yes. That's satisfying isn't it? Very nice. Do you keep in touch with them? Yes. Regular touch with them. And you're still breeding them? Yeah, still breeding them, yeah. You had a fall this morning? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've had five this time, we? cutting down with that side a bit as well gradually, less. Do you train them before you sell them or do you...? Well, no, we sell them as falls. And I mean, if a fork wants some hand or... breaking them in and training them. We're always here to give advice. Well you've run one or two training days haven't you? Yeah, right, we have had. Because we've sold quite a lot of ponies over the years because we've always had between say four five up to about ten foals a year. We've cut down to about four or five now but we were on about ten. So there's a lot of our ponies out there you see. like a year or two back we getting a lot of people saying well I was his now you know two years old or three years old what should we be doing with it now Charlie and how would you do this so I want to mouth it or I want to long reign it and so instead of endless talking on the telephone we decided we'd put one or two days on for the what we call the Roandale owners because that's our prefix and that we'd put these days on and they could come for the day and ten or fifteen, I think there was about sixteen or seventeen at one of wasn't there? And he would show them how to go on and that was going to be the easiest way. They enjoyed it and it meant it was quite a social gathering. and they also learned something so I just think the better doing their own ponies if they can with a bit of advice rather than sending them somewhere to get broken in yeah because you build a relationship yeah you do you do and the ponies know them and they know you you know your pony and your pony knows you and trusts you and you trust bills you know so that's what I want to sort of promote promote is doing it I think people think the owners doing their own point especially when they're bottom of us because they use you know they usually good temperaments but they just need a bit of guidance yeah, we've nearly always something doing a bit of something, so you know, last time you got the... came and you had three for them to look at, didn't you? At different stages. At different stages, so they could see the very green one just being done, then one that's done a little bit, and then one that's done it all. So they could see where they were aiming for and have a go. Yeah. You know, have a go with them, have a go long raining, have a go putting the stuff on. and so it was good, wasn't it? Yeah, it showed him how they progress and the final one, he was just like a Rolls Royce, he? On his mouth. and Charlie's always done that and we've always said it's not about money all the time because four would ring me and well how much do you charge? No we don't charge anything. We're happy for people to learn off us and think that we've helped people along the way. Do see that as your legacy in some ways then? I think it is in a way because I think especially Charlie's knowledge on it and I mean Charlie's broken in a huge amount of ponies over the years and so it's not always about making money all the time it's about creating... Should be useful. Yes, useful. a nice pony that's useful and people enjoying a pony that you've bred you know for us it's nice because you know that you've started them off right so you've started your pony off right I I started off as a novice but I had a good man George Wright to guide me Yeah, I mean, you everybody learns and I always say to people, you know, when they've been here on these courses, you know, every day's a school day, you know, we don't know everything and we learn and something, you'll do something with one or whatever and you think, blimey, that's never happened before or I wonder what I should have done, you know, this, you know, every day's a school day, you never know everything. you learn a lot watching if people have the opportunity and Can take the time to watch? These ponies. Yeah, you learn a huge amount about their natural I think that's the same for like far more generally For animals also for you know hedges and trees and you know wildlife, you know You don't try and impose what you want to happen. No. You look and see what's happening. And then work with it. It all works. Whether it's species in trees and plants and things and native animals, it all works together in a way, doesn't it? And like native birds and you know, it all gels together if they're given a chance to do it. Then. There's so much to be learned by just taking your time and as you say, just watching and taking your time doing it. And that's kind of, it's interesting and it's, you learn a lot. And it's very satisfying. Because you're keeping things as nature intended. And it's like us with native ponies trying to keep them as natural as we can. in the herd environment, know, falling and what have you, trying to keep them as natural as you can is so satisfying. think that's a really great place to end. so much for your time. It's been really fascinating, really interesting. You're very welcome. I hope it's been okay for you. Nice to catch up again.