บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 401: Ioannis Kallinikos of Traxys

00:04:20.259 percent Greek. Okay. And I just went to the UK 76 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:20.720 to study. 77 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:21.220 Okay. 78 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:23.139 And I just stayed in London for work. 79 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:24.310 What university did you go to? 80 00:04:24.930 --> 00:04:27.389 I went to Staffordshire university, which is in the West 81 00:04:27.410 --> 00:04:31.730 Midlands for my first degree. and to Brunel University in 82 00:04:32.250 --> 00:04:34.490 the west of London for my master's degree. Okay. 83 00:04:35.050 --> 00:04:36.209 Master's degree in? 84 00:04:36.410 --> 00:04:43.069 Finance. Okay. Not very relevant to tungsten, but yeah, it 85 00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:47.420 was mostly in numbers, econometrics, and very complex models, none 86 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:48.720 of which I use today, by the way. 87 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:52.639 Yeah. Do you think any of it has a little 88 00:04:52.660 --> 00:04:55.759 bit of intrinsic value in terms of your ability to 89 00:04:55.819 --> 00:04:59.050 calculate and think maybe outside the box a little bit 90 00:04:59.089 --> 00:05:00.430 when it comes to costing or. 91 00:05:00.689 --> 00:05:03.750 I think this goes with every discipline. You can go 92 00:05:03.790 --> 00:05:09.829 to uni and you can learn about any discipline and 93 00:05:09.889 --> 00:05:15.459 that teaches you some transferable skills. Sure. The very nature 94 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.819 of what I was taught at uni, I'm not using today. Okay. 95 00:05:19.540 --> 00:05:23.480 So along your journey, you've landed at Traxxas. 96 00:05:23.819 --> 00:05:24.019 Yes. 97 00:05:24.339 --> 00:05:30.389 So what... What's Traxxas? What is their expertise? Pretty large company. 98 00:05:30.910 --> 00:05:34.769 Got a pretty significant footprint. So give me a little 99 00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:36.089 background on them. 100 00:05:36.589 --> 00:05:41.660 Very happy to have joined Traxxas. That was in 2021. 101 00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:45.019 Traxxas is a specialist in supply chain management with a 102 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:51.019 focus on critical minerals and battery metals. We're not very 103 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:54.230 big in coal or iron ore and these bulk materials, 104 00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:58.189 but we really are a specialist in some niche markets 105 00:05:58.269 --> 00:06:01.730 where we try to deploy balance sheet and become very 106 00:06:01.810 --> 00:06:05.670 relevant to our counterparties. So we are a big player 107 00:06:05.750 --> 00:06:08.379 in tin and tungsten, for example. We are a significant 108 00:06:08.389 --> 00:06:13.339 player in uranium. We are a significant player in rare 109 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.699 earths and minor metals. And I think that's where the 110 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.100 competitive edge of Traxxas comes, that we have a global presence. 111 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:23.600 So unlike a lot of our competitors, we're not regional. 112 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:26.860 We

have a global book, which in the tungsten world 113 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:28.300 has served us quite well, I feel. 114 00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:33.259 Yeah. So just for like a little clarity, Tungco, for example, 115 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.259 we only do tungsten really. I mean, there's some other 116 00:06:37.300 --> 00:06:39.240 things that we do like in the high speed world 117 00:06:39.259 --> 00:06:42.259 and whatnot, but let's just, just for simplicity, we do 118 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.339 tungsten and we own the metal. 119 00:06:44.740 --> 00:06:45.459 Yeah. 120 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.620 And we pretty much only do scrap. You and I 121 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.720 have talked before about some YTO, BTO, some of those 122 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:55.519 other things. So if we just talk tungsten for a minute, 123 00:06:55.980 --> 00:07:00.459 does Traxxas portfolio, do they cover all of the types 124 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.879 or is there a narrow scope? And are you actually 125 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.980 selling that metal or are you selling contracts? 126 00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:11.470 Right. So Traxxas has got the biggest footprint in tungsten concentrates. 127 00:07:12.129 --> 00:07:14.829 We have made a conscious decision to focus on the 128 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:18.189 upstream part of the supply chain because we found that's 129 00:07:18.230 --> 00:07:21.990 where we could solve problems. customers pain points easier by 130 00:07:22.050 --> 00:07:26.529 deploying balance sheet and offering logistics, financing, and marketing services. 131 00:07:27.250 --> 00:07:30.000 We also solve the problem for the APT manufacturers in 132 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.480 the world because tungsten is typically found in relatively difficult 133 00:07:33.500 --> 00:07:37.579 jurisdictions or the projects where tungsten is being produced as 134 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:41.540 a mineral can be difficult to finance. So that's where 135 00:07:41.579 --> 00:07:46.810 we step in. Traxxas does trade intermediates and finished products 136 00:07:46.850 --> 00:07:49.930 including ferro tungsten and tungsten metal bar and tungsten powder 137 00:07:51.069 --> 00:07:54.240 we don't have the same size of market share as 138 00:07:54.259 --> 00:07:57.800 we do in the concentrate space and we don't really 139 00:07:57.860 --> 00:08:00.639 trade a lot of apt and oxides because we don't 140 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:03.139 want to compete with our client base so we've taken 141 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:05.689 a conscious decision we figured out that this is the 142 00:08:05.699 --> 00:08:07.970 best space for us to be in the market and 143 00:08:07.990 --> 00:08:10.290 we focused on it and you know after a lot 144 00:08:10.310 --> 00:08:13.629 of years after over a decade of hard work and 145 00:08:13.670 --> 00:08:17.720 a lot of trips to the mine sites, we have 146 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:21.360 a pretty significant footprint in moving raw materials to the 147 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:25.439 key direct consumers, which is the hydrometallurgical plants that turn 148 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:29.250 it into APT and oxide, as well as quite a 149 00:08:29.310 --> 00:08:31.870 few oxide buyers that are in our customer base that 150 00:08:31.930 --> 00:08:34.889 are buying the concentrate from us for tall treatment into 151 00:08:35.870 --> 00:08:37.250 APT and BTO and YTO. 152 00:08:38.190 --> 00:08:41.899 So that is an option for somebody. Traxxas becomes an 153 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.720 option for somebody other than having to, let's say, let's 154 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:47.419 say I wanted concentrates. You would hear a lot of 155 00:08:47.460 --> 00:08:50.860 people say, okay, well, you would have an offtake with 156 00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:52.860 a mine. Right. So you have to have a certain 157 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.139 level of commitment. Sounds like what you guys are doing 158 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.340 is you're able to actually build a robust supply chain. 159 00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:02.929 You and I would maybe, if I'm, let's say I'm 160 00:09:02.950 --> 00:09:03.570 your customer. 161 00:09:03.730 --> 00:09:03.909 Yeah. 162 00:09:04.029 --> 00:09:07.580 You and I would have some kind of agreement as to, Giannis, 163 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:10.990 I need this much per month or whatever. It's probably 164 00:09:11.019 --> 00:09:14.470 not a spot buy. But do you do spot buys 165 00:09:14.570 --> 00:09:16.570 or is it more long-term? 166 00:09:16.690 --> 00:09:19.960 The majority of our business is long-term contracts. By nature, 167 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:23.750 when you're dealing with a minor... They will produce come 168 00:09:23.789 --> 00:09:26.029 rain or shine. Whether the market is good or whether 169 00:09:26.049 --> 00:09:28.330 the market is bad, they will produce. And they want 170 00:09:28.350 --> 00:09:31.889 liquidity and they want a path to cash. So that 171 00:09:31.950 --> 00:09:35.370 is what we provide. We buy typically at Mindgate and 172 00:09:35.389 --> 00:09:39.289 we pay at Mindgate. And then we manage the risks 173 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:42.460 associated with moving the product from where it's being produced 174 00:09:42.580 --> 00:09:45.899 to where it's being consumed. Sometimes we have to change 175 00:09:45.940 --> 00:09:49.019 the form from concentrate to oxide by way of a 176 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:52.120 tolling agreement, for instance. And we have to provide financing, 177 00:09:52.299 --> 00:09:56.769 either pre-financing to the mine or financing payment terms to 178 00:09:56.809 --> 00:10:00.320 the consumers. So we do a mix of that. depending 179 00:10:00.379 --> 00:10:01.820 on the customer requirements. 180 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:06.289 So your supplier would be the mine and you stand 181 00:10:06.330 --> 00:10:10.490 between the mine and if I'm in need of that, 182 00:10:10.889 --> 00:10:13.659 I would have an agreement with you for... so many 183

00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:15.230 tons a month or a year or whatever. 184 00:10:15.250 --> 00:10:19.850 Exactly. And we would, if an APT manufacturer or a 185 00:10:19.929 --> 00:10:23.490 consumer of tungsten wanted security of supply, they could come 186 00:10:23.529 --> 00:10:27.120 to us and they could say, look, we want X 187 00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:31.620 tons of W03 per month. And we would qualify responsibly 188 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.539 sourced concentrate from a variety of jurisdictions so that if 189 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.120 there were hiccups in the supply chain, of which we 190 00:10:38.139 --> 00:10:40.509 have witnessed quite a few in the last few years, 191 00:10:41.389 --> 00:10:44.730 With COVID and with wars and with closed trades and 192 00:10:44.750 --> 00:10:47.929 the rest, we would make sure that the customer would 193 00:10:48.129 --> 00:10:51.090 receive the material on time and on spec from a 194 00:10:51.110 --> 00:10:54.389 variety of jurisdictions. And they wouldn't have to worry about 195 00:10:54.490 --> 00:10:57.149 whether they would get the material or not. You know 196 00:10:57.610 --> 00:11:00.009 better than most people that the last couple of years 197 00:11:00.049 --> 00:11:03.679 have been really difficult for suppliers to deliver against their 198 00:11:03.700 --> 00:11:07.779 contractual promises. Yep. we can claim that Traxxas hasn't had 199 00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:11.070 this issue by virtue of the diversified nature of our 200 00:11:11.110 --> 00:11:12.230 supply chains. 201 00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:18.789 So that is really key. If I'm your customer, you 202 00:11:18.909 --> 00:11:21.870 are making sure that supply chain is stable. 203 00:11:22.169 --> 00:11:22.509 Correct. 204 00:11:22.629 --> 00:11:24.840 And it's going to be there when I need it. 205 00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:29.350 And to achieve that, we might have to purchase material 206 00:11:29.389 --> 00:11:31.360 and keep it in stock at a location that is 207 00:11:31.429 --> 00:11:34.620 close to the customer and That doesn't just apply to tungsten. 208 00:11:34.659 --> 00:11:37.620 We do that across a wide variety of portfolios. Traxxas 209 00:11:37.659 --> 00:11:41.000 trades over 65 different elements of the periodic table. 210 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:47.019 That's impressive. And really, there's, what, 60 critical raw materials? 211 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.740 At least what the U.S. has listed is 60? 212 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:49.960 Right. 213 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.220 And so your main focus is within those categories. 214 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:56.799 I think if you can put your finger on any 215 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:00.980 element of the periodic table, chances are Traxxas is involved 216 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.659 in that in some way, shape, or form. 217 00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:06.039 And is most of that, when we say upstream, we 218 00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:11.179 would have two options, either ore slash concentrates or scrap. 219 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.470 Is most of that on the primary side that you're, 220 00:12:15.110 --> 00:12:17.289 no matter what, I know we've talked in tungsten, but. 221 00:12:18.029 --> 00:12:20.350 On tungsten, we tend to focus on the primary side. 222 00:12:20.389 --> 00:12:20.570 Yeah. 223 00:12:20.629 --> 00:12:21.809 We do some tungstate. 224 00:12:22.210 --> 00:12:22.370 Yeah. 225 00:12:22.789 --> 00:12:24.909 Which is coming from the secondary route. 226 00:12:25.029 --> 00:12:25.210 Sure. 227 00:12:25.830 --> 00:12:27.889 But it's still used as raw material in the APT 228 00:12:27.909 --> 00:12:30.629 manufacturing process. So we tend to focus mostly on the 229 00:12:30.649 --> 00:12:31.529 primary side. Yeah. 230 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:37.120 And as far as when you mentioned conversion, if again, 231 00:12:37.299 --> 00:12:39.679 using me as an example, if I'm like, Hey, I, 232 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:41.360 I need it in this form. 233 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:41.940 Right. 234 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.779 Um, you are doing that through another party or you 235 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:49.960 guys actually have the capacity to turn it into something else. 236 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.649 Then you and I will have to discuss what origin 237 00:12:54.889 --> 00:12:58.809 and what supplier do you want to convert? that primary 238 00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:03.389 raw material into an oxide or an APT, and then 239 00:13:03.669 --> 00:13:07.029 we can jointly visit them and strike an agreement where 240 00:13:07.049 --> 00:13:09.799 I supply the raw material, they supply the tolling services, 241 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:10.779 and you get what you want. 242 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.080 Right. So when you talk about responsibly sourcing, one of 243 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:19.120 the concerns is that with a chain of custody, there's 244 00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:22.080 a lot of things where the customer has to know, okay, 245 00:13:22.450 --> 00:13:25.950 I got to know that it's not coming from these areas, 246 00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:29.639 whatever those areas are, And then I also can't have 247 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:33.299 it even go through there for any kind of conversion, right? 248 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.779 So that's where you're trying to build in not only 249 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.970 the resiliency of the supply chain, but also transparency so 250 00:13:40.289 --> 00:13:41.649 that all parties are protected. 251 00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:46.110 This is absolutely core to the value proposition that we offer. 252 00:13:47.789 --> 00:13:52.220 We have been flying tungsten concentrate in recent months across 253 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:58.750 the world. And of course, when Because tungsten is a 254 00:13:59.870 --> 00:14:05.230 conflict mineral by virtue of the Dodd-Frank Act, all the refiners, 255 00:14:05.750 --> 00:14:09.470 because they're not really smelters, this is a hydrometallurgical process, 256 00:14:10.190 -->

00:14:13.720 they require the full chain of custody documents and we 257 00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:18.379 provide all of them. And all the customers that we 258 00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:23.250 deliver product to are RMI conformant. And have all the 259 00:14:23.289 --> 00:14:27.409 documents to justify the origin and the provenance of each 260 00:14:29.470 --> 00:14:32.509 unit of W03 that we deliver to their premises. 261 00:14:32.970 --> 00:14:38.190 It's somewhat a complex operation to have. 262 00:14:38.289 --> 00:14:45.419 It's very capital intensive and very energy intensive. So my 263 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.740 team and I, we travel around the world all the time. 264 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:51.299 My wife will tell you that she misses me, but 265 00:14:51.580 --> 00:14:54.759 I travel at least two weeks per month on the 266 00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:59.639 road to make sure that supply chains remain intact and 267 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:04.919 our flows remain conflict-free. Yeah. 268 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:10.600 Well, I know that's a challenge to be away from home. 269 00:15:10.820 --> 00:15:11.700 Yeah. 270 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.899 But we were laughing with somebody the other night. It's like, 271 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.539 Sometimes when we're home too long, it's like. 272 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.320 They want you out then. 273 00:15:22.179 --> 00:15:24.860 I thought you had a trip coming up. 274 00:15:25.580 --> 00:15:25.799 Yeah. 275 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.610 And then you can tell on the phone when it's like, okay, 276 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.990 you've been gone too long. Like, let's get back. 277 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:33.570 Do you still travel a lot for work, Cliff? 278 00:15:33.750 --> 00:15:37.269 I do. I'm traveling a little. I'm probably traveling a 279 00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:41.549 little bit differently now. So like with Debbie being our 280 00:15:41.870 --> 00:15:46.990 chief operations officer. we split like the long, long distance 281 00:15:47.049 --> 00:15:49.690 travel where if we've got to be gone two, three 282 00:15:49.750 --> 00:15:53.470 weeks at a time, we're trying to reduce that. And 283 00:15:53.509 --> 00:15:56.470 then with our project 74, I'm spending a lot of 284 00:15:56.509 --> 00:16:01.009 time in DC. So I'm probably still traveling as much, 285 00:16:01.129 --> 00:16:03.980 but it doesn't feel like as much because it's intermittently 286 00:16:04.460 --> 00:16:06.740 and I'm not having to go for like here. I 287 00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:08.299 will have been here for almost two and a half 288 00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:11.320 weeks by the time I wrapped that up. And I 289 00:16:11.379 --> 00:16:16.320 think last year, I did two or I did the 290 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.990 two and a half weekers probably seven times last year. 291 00:16:20.029 --> 00:16:22.610 That's a long, that's a long, that was a lot. 292 00:16:22.809 --> 00:16:24.549 So I just told her, I said, Hey, I don't 293 00:16:24.610 --> 00:16:27.610 think I can do that and stay at the mental 294 00:16:28.129 --> 00:16:30.639 mental game where I need to be. So we've tried 295 00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:32.440 to bust that up a little bit, but, and then 296 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.860 being gone from your kids, you have one or two. 297 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.340 I have one he's five, five and a half years old. 298 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:41.470 But now that I moved to Dubai from Singapore, traveling 299 00:16:41.509 --> 00:16:43.470 has become a lot easier for me because Dubai is 300 00:16:43.509 --> 00:16:46.169 a single flight to pretty much anywhere, whereas Singapore was 301 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:47.960 a lot more challenging from that perspective. 302 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.759 Yeah, I could see where that would get quite interesting. 303 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.879 On a lighter note, who's your favorite airline out of Dubai? 304 00:16:58.179 --> 00:17:02.580 Emirates, hands down. I used to love Singapore Airlines, but 305 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.859 I think Emirates has won me over. 306 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.589 I can go back and forth on those. But I 307 00:17:08.650 --> 00:17:13.750 think I would be in your camp. I think it's Emirates. 308 00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:14.670 It's fantastic. 309 00:17:14.849 --> 00:17:15.430 It's really good. 310 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:19.029 And it's funny. My son and I, we actually came 311 00:17:19.089 --> 00:17:22.690 to Italy back in the summer to go to Beretta, 312 00:17:22.829 --> 00:17:24.029 the gun manufacturer. 313 00:17:24.049 --> 00:17:24.170 Yeah. 314 00:17:24.650 --> 00:17:28.170 And of all places, the one flight that you could 315 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:30.950 get direct out of Newark or New York, I can't 316 00:17:30.990 --> 00:17:34.710 remember which one we went out of, into Europe with 317 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:36.480 Emirates was Milan. 318 00:17:36.819 --> 00:17:36.960 Yeah. 319 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:39.430 And I'm like, so strange, but that's just the route 320 00:17:39.470 --> 00:17:42.720 that that Emirates flight takes to wherever they're, I don't 321 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:44.720 know if it was going on to Dubai or where 322 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:45.779 the next stop was, but. 323 00:17:45.980 --> 00:17:48.759 It was definitely Dubai. I think they break the Dubai 324 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:52.039 to New York flight, either in Athens or in Milan. Okay. 325 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:53.960 And you were lucky to get the one in Milan. And, 326 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.819 you know, I'm glad you experienced the hospitality of Emirates. 327 00:17:57.859 --> 00:18:00.380 It was nice. My son, he was, he got to 328 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:02.099 fly business with me and he was like, dad. 329 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.359 Yeah. So you see, you're going to spoil him. Yeah. Yeah. 330 00:18:06.809 --> 00:18:14.680 He didn't fly Emirates here. Well, let's talk tungsten headwinds 331 00:18:14.740 --> 00:18:17.180 maybe

just a little bit or even opportunities. I mean, 332 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:21.500 there's probably, we could probably cover both ends, but a 333 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:25.349 lot of really good news dropping while we've been at 334 00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:29.690 the conference this week. But how are you feeling about 335 00:18:30.009 --> 00:18:30.829 tungsten in general? 336 00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:34.839 I think tungsten is having his day in the sun. 337 00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:40.019 For the last two years, it's been in the spotlight. 338 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:45.259 Its prices have witnessed a spectacular increase. As we have witnessed, 339 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:49.900 the balance sheets of these companies have grown significantly. Valuations 340 00:18:50.009 --> 00:18:53.630 of companies involved in tungsten have grown significantly. That comes 341 00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:57.170 with both opportunities and challenges. The opportunity is obviously to 342 00:18:57.190 --> 00:19:01.569 get involved in the industry to grow and new projects 343 00:19:01.589 --> 00:19:04.970 to come online, both on the mining and the processing side. 344 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:13.769 And the challenges associated with that come with the potential 345 00:19:13.809 --> 00:19:19.349 for a correction and the growing delta between the prices 346 00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:23.220 in China and the prices in the West that increase 347 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:27.940 the risk of material substitution. So we're not talking about 348 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:32.789 demand destruction because that Tungsten is fortunate enough to be 349 00:19:32.950 --> 00:19:37.940 used very sparingly in end products. So whether tungsten is 350 00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:42.180 $ 300 per MTU for APT or $ 3, 000, the impact on 351 00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:45.849 the price of a finished product is not really very substantial. 352 00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:51.910 But initially, in the initial phase... we've seen the risk 353 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:56.089 of substitution predominantly because of the non-availability and you've seen 354 00:19:56.130 --> 00:20:00.579 that first hand yourself and now that the prices in 355 00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:05.660 the Chinese market are significantly below the prices in the 356 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:08.099 US and Europe and you know Korea and Japan and 357 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:11.920 the rest of the world we see that the non-critical applications, 358 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:17.319 not related to defense and advanced manufacturing, but mining, construction, 359 00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:25.380 these Chinese tools are ending up costing a fraction of 360 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:29.890 the cost as if they were produced from a Western manufacturer. 361 00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:33.150 So a lot of this demand is going to go 362 00:20:33.170 --> 00:20:38.349 to Chinese producers, whether we like it or not. And 363 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:40.670 this demand substitution is going to be difficult to pull 364 00:20:40.710 --> 00:20:45.529 back in the future. So ultimately, my feeling is that 365 00:20:45.569 --> 00:20:51.269 the challenge facing the tungsten industry today is that for 366 00:20:51.390 --> 00:20:56.430 the whole ecosystem to coexist, the delta between Chinese and 367 00:20:56.470 --> 00:20:58.829 Western prices cannot be as large as it is today. 368 00:20:58.990 --> 00:21:00.549 But this is my own personal opinion. 369 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:04.809 Yeah, I agree. In the scrap side, we are definitely 370 00:21:04.930 --> 00:21:09.210 seeing some of those categories that you're talking about, we're 371 00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:15.269 seeing the scrap supply drop off. And when we ask people, 372 00:21:15.289 --> 00:21:17.109 we're like, hey, are we missing? You know, you think 373 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:19.410 maybe somebody else has picked up a little bit of 374 00:21:19.430 --> 00:21:23.440 business here or there. Maybe we missed it. And they're like, no, 375 00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:27.619 our availability is down because we stopped using tungsten in 376 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:30.720 this area and we switched to high speed or whatever. 377 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:33.380 So I'm with you. I think there is a lot 378 00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:36.119 of really good things going on. But I think we 379 00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:39.500 we don't need to fall asleep and just like ride 380 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.740 the wave and be like, well, it's just going to 381 00:21:41.789 --> 00:21:42.329 be good. 382 00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:45.029 You know, nothing stays forever. Yeah. 383 00:21:45.089 --> 00:21:47.789 So I think we have to be very carefully watching that. 384 00:21:48.390 --> 00:21:50.329 Or we could wake up in a few years and 385 00:21:50.369 --> 00:21:53.089 some of our main, you know, for what 10 years 386 00:21:53.130 --> 00:21:55.569 ago was the main core business could have been eroded 387 00:21:55.609 --> 00:22:00.250 away to another location. So I think that's sound advice. Well, man, 388 00:22:00.289 --> 00:22:03.359 it's been good to have you on. Uh, we've, we've 389 00:22:03.380 --> 00:22:06.200 talked a lot and, uh, I think Traxxas is doing 390 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.039 big things. Uh, look forward to hearing, uh, more and 391 00:22:10.059 --> 00:22:13.519 more good things with maybe the vault and a few other, uh, 392 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:14.779 a few other opportunities. 393 00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:16.980 Excited for what lies ahead as well. And thank you 394 00:22:17.009 --> 00:22:19.130 for inviting me. And it's been great talking to you. 395 00:22:19.210 --> 00:22:20.950 All right, man. It's been an honor to have you on. 396 00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:24.450 That's another episode of Cliff's Notes podcast. Thanks for listening. 397 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:35.049 Cliff's now. 398 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:38.609 Cliff's now. Cliff's now. 399 00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:39.549 Cliff's now.