บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 45 From Imagination to Impact: Unlocking Creativity

brand comms team with Melia. 32 00:02:01,357 --> 00:02:06,602 I work on making Blackbird into a beautiful place full of creativity and rich in meaning. 33 00:02:06,774 --> 00:02:13,637 I built our brand, helped to shape our culture and tried hard to make Australia's startup ecosystem dynamic and inspiring. 34 00:02:13,637 --> 00:02:19,399 Also the head of the Blackbird Foundation is to unleash creativity in young people. 35 00:02:20,260 --> 00:02:21,300 It is beautiful. 36 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:22,120 I love it. 37 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,741 What was it like reading those words again when you say you haven't read them for a while? 38 00:02:26,002 --> 00:02:32,044 I think, you know, I always struggle to tell people what I do or to explain it when they ask. 39 00:02:32,545 --> 00:02:36,806 So I'm actually really pleasantly surprised that I thought it's a wrong 40 00:02:36,842 --> 00:02:40,343 So I forgot my name, I think it captures it quite well. 41 00:02:40,343 --> 00:02:42,324 It at least captures the intention. 42 00:02:42,324 --> 00:02:48,845 I think how you go about doing your work changes all the time, as you learn, as you grow. 43 00:02:48,845 --> 00:02:52,855 But I think that's done a really good job of capturing the intention. 44 00:02:52,855 --> 00:02:58,518 Also the journey, you've done a few different roles of Blackburn that's changed over time. 45 00:02:58,518 --> 00:03:05,990 that captures the startup ecosystem part, which I've worked on, the foundation, which is kind of our purpose and social mission. 46 00:03:06,734 --> 00:03:09,574 And yeah, I'm proud of myself. 47 00:03:09,574 --> 00:03:11,274 for bringing that back. 48 00:03:11,274 --> 00:03:12,974 You should be proud of yourself. 49 00:03:12,974 --> 00:03:15,084 For me, it's just such a beautiful piece of it. 50 00:03:15,084 --> 00:03:15,894 We're entering. 51 00:03:15,894 --> 00:03:19,934 It's funny, I always say that we're entering into this authentic era of leadership. 52 00:03:19,934 --> 00:03:27,534 And yet I think authenticity has always been on the table as a human centered leadership dynamic, if you like, that we aspire to. 53 00:03:27,534 --> 00:03:32,344 And yet for me, that piece of writing, there's so many aspects of it that I just want to celebrate. 54 00:03:32,344 --> 00:03:33,848 That meaning piece. 55 00:03:33,848 --> 00:03:37,581 you know, bringing your whole self to the projects and the people that you're working with. 56 00:03:37,581 --> 00:03:44,196 I'm so curious, because you've been with Blackbird for a long time now, at the earliest days or, you know, pretty close to them. 57 00:03:44,196 --> 00:03:50,911 How have you seen your mission collectively and you individually change and grow over that time? 58 00:03:51,933 --> 00:04:01,920 man, I was talking to some colleagues about this just yesterday, A friend of mine, colleague Claire, is just leaving Blackbird. 59 00:04:03,502 --> 00:04:13,182 We're talking about she and another person I work with, we were discussing, you know, what is it you think, what's been the best part about working at Blackbird and all of the 60 00:04:13,182 --> 00:04:27,042 screens, that it's just the amount of change we've all had to go through personally in order to, I don't want to say rise to the occasion, but it's in order to meet the 61 00:04:27,042 --> 00:04:31,342 opportunity that I think we all feel that we've had working at Blackbird. 62 00:04:31,468 --> 00:04:33,809 Yeah, I've changed a lot since I got here. 63 00:04:33,809 --> 00:04:48,363 And I think it's probably one of the things that I like the most is, you know, just for giving me the space in a platform to be able to explore, you know, who I am as a person, 64 00:04:48,363 --> 00:04:58,966 what the great things that I have to offer might be, and how to actually develop those things into something that's tangible and that works and that actually has impact. 65 00:04:58,966 --> 00:05:00,076 So I've changed a lot. 66 00:05:00,076 --> 00:05:01,086 started off 67 00:05:01,164 --> 00:05:03,345 I came to Blackbird as an artist manager. 68 00:05:03,345 --> 00:05:07,816 was a band manager in the music industry for close to a decade. 69 00:05:07,856 --> 00:05:11,737 I started that company with my friend Greg out of university. 70 00:05:11,737 --> 00:05:18,079 I had a couple of jobs before that out of university, but just sort of things. 71 00:05:18,079 --> 00:05:24,440 So I really feel like my career and life sort of started when I started managing the bands. 72 00:05:24,621 --> 00:05:29,998 And I came to Blackbird with this really rough edge and I got some... 73 00:05:29,998 --> 00:05:33,278 I should have some feedback, which is like haunted me. 74 00:05:33,418 --> 00:05:34,958 Is that right? 75 00:05:34,958 --> 00:05:37,398 And you remember it. 76 00:05:37,418 --> 00:05:38,808 I'll tell you what it was. 77 00:05:38,808 --> 00:05:40,938 And it's like, you'll see why. 78 00:05:40,938 --> 00:05:48,118 I just unsolicited asked for some feedback and she said, this is the NBA and you're still playing pickup basketball. 79 00:05:48,238 --> 00:05:54,858 Like, I don't think that's a great place to fit, but it like stuck with me at the time. 80 00:05:54,858 --> 00:05:58,726 I hated it because I was like, I just saw a great disagree with it. 81 00:05:58,734 --> 00:06:00,574 But I kind of know what he meant. 82 00:06:00,894 --> 00:06:10,374 Coming out of the arts, there is a particularly running business where you don't have people to learn from. 83 00:06:10,374 --> 00:06:13,564 There's a standard for learning, for growth is set by yourself. 84 00:06:13,564 --> 00:06:19,564 But if you don't know what you don't know, you don't know what potential for yourself could be. 85 00:06:19,564 --> 00:06:22,094 You don't know what real learning looks like. 86 00:06:22,174 --> 00:06:23,394 You don't know any of those things. 87 00:06:23,394 --> 00:06:26,734 So how can you

set a culture for learning and growth if you don't know? 88 00:06:26,798 --> 00:06:32,182 And so I came in like just very rough around the edges, undisciplined. 89 00:06:32,182 --> 00:06:35,083 I don't think I knew myself very well at all. 90 00:06:35,164 --> 00:06:43,620 An example would be the best example is that I never thought of myself as pre-old until a few years into my work at Blackbird. 91 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:46,512 No one had ever told me that I was, I never thought of myself. 92 00:06:46,512 --> 00:06:48,083 And now that's my whole identity. 93 00:06:48,083 --> 00:06:51,695 Like, that's how I think of myself, that's how other people describe me. 94 00:06:51,695 --> 00:06:55,510 But up until my thirties, like I'd never 95 00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:57,330 I'd never thought that really. 96 00:06:57,330 --> 00:06:58,792 I didn't know that. 97 00:06:58,832 --> 00:07:05,477 Yeah, so that's like to answer your question, like it's been a huge growth and a huge journey now. 98 00:07:05,477 --> 00:07:09,300 And it's one of the things that I'm most thankful for about having worked at Blackwood. 99 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:11,191 Yeah, wow, that is so interesting. 100 00:07:11,191 --> 00:07:18,105 I'm really curious about creativity and people's identity with the creative process. 101 00:07:19,018 --> 00:07:23,572 And to hear even coming out of university, because you originally studied communications, is that right? 102 00:07:23,572 --> 00:07:25,353 And then went into into band management. 103 00:07:25,353 --> 00:07:32,349 I working with musicians, my, you know, my leap there was just that, of course, you would have always identified as a creative. 104 00:07:32,349 --> 00:07:36,152 So to hear that that wasn't the case for you, what was the what was the turning point? 105 00:07:36,152 --> 00:07:41,516 Do you think was it feedback from others or emotion in projects or something personal? 106 00:07:41,516 --> 00:07:47,241 So like I was always into the arts and creativity, even as a young person. 107 00:07:47,241 --> 00:07:48,504 I did I was in 108 00:07:48,504 --> 00:07:50,915 theater in high school, really liked music. 109 00:07:50,915 --> 00:07:53,436 I was a massive music fan. 110 00:07:53,797 --> 00:07:58,450 did a communications degree, but it was a theater and media major. 111 00:07:58,450 --> 00:08:01,541 So I did theater production at university. 112 00:08:01,541 --> 00:08:03,612 was this degree where you learn how to make shows. 113 00:08:03,612 --> 00:08:07,945 could be film, theater, TV, radio, festivals. 114 00:08:07,945 --> 00:08:09,446 That's what I ended up doing. 115 00:08:09,446 --> 00:08:12,948 But I also saw myself as like an organizer of creative people. 116 00:08:12,948 --> 00:08:17,470 And so I left, if you think about it, 117 00:08:17,858 --> 00:08:26,134 The stuff that did at was making shows, so organizing spaces within which people can be creative and people can celebrate. 118 00:08:26,134 -->

00:08:30,483 So that was, I organized music, a couple of music festivals at university. 119 00:08:30,483 --> 00:08:33,224 was largely, those are the big projects I did. 120 00:08:33,224 --> 00:08:38,046 And then when I finished, I did some events management work at the beginning. 121 00:08:38,046 --> 00:08:47,126 And then I was an artist manager, so helping creative people to be creative or 122 00:08:47,126 --> 00:08:51,386 removing some of the barriers that might be stopping them from going back. 123 00:08:51,386 --> 00:08:54,250 I went into black, my first job was head of community. 124 00:08:54,250 --> 00:09:00,203 And so that too is basically organizing around creative people. 125 00:09:00,203 --> 00:09:04,595 think the founders in startups is creative people, the same as I am. 126 00:09:04,716 --> 00:09:08,748 And so like, kind of thread is pretty obvious. 127 00:09:08,748 --> 00:09:17,022 Like when you see that, I always worked and thought of myself as someone who enables, believed in creative people and enables them to be creative. 128 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:26,733 And then I think just by the time I got to Blackbird, I had done my 10,000 hours in culture. 129 00:09:26,733 --> 00:09:28,321 I'd listened to heaps of music. 130 00:09:28,321 --> 00:09:29,914 I'd watched all the films. 131 00:09:29,914 --> 00:09:35,875 I'd spent all my life, working life, hanging around really artistic and creative people. 132 00:09:35,875 --> 00:09:38,956 And through that, I developed a strong sense of taste. 133 00:09:38,956 --> 00:09:46,218 And then when I get to Blackbird, I would say the thing that I had done more than most people at least my 10,000 hours in culture. 134 00:09:46,638 --> 00:10:00,098 And so to the people that I work with in Blackbird who were, had backgrounds in law, in business, in finance, investment, compared to those people, was, the hours that I'd done 135 00:10:00,098 --> 00:10:08,958 in culture and the taste that I developed kind of, it made them see me as creative because I understood creativity in culture. 136 00:10:09,598 --> 00:10:16,654 And so, you know, it only took a few people at Blackbird starting to see me as creative and to tell me that I was creative. 137 00:10:16,654 --> 00:10:21,794 and to value the ideas that I had and my expression of creativity. 138 00:10:21,794 --> 00:10:30,054 It only took them saying that a little bit and giving me a little bit of space to work on it and to find discovery for myself. 139 00:10:30,054 --> 00:10:40,074 It only took that for me to then have this whole new part of my life now where I think of myself as creative and everybody does and my major value and output, a black word, 140 00:10:40,074 --> 00:10:41,894 centered around creativity. 141 00:10:41,994 --> 00:10:46,214 So was like a couple of people just believing in me and telling me. 142 00:10:46,764 --> 00:10:49,376 Yeah, it's really that power of feedback. 143 00:10:49,376 --> 00:10:50,067 is awesome. 144

00:10:50,067 --> 00:10:52,939 There's something else that you said that I want to double click on. 145 00:10:52,939 --> 00:10:55,221 It's that idea of the 10,000 hours. 146 00:10:55,221 --> 00:11:04,034 And yet when we're diving into something that really captures our interest for you, it sounds like it was always music and culture and creative sources. 147 00:11:04,034 --> 00:11:12,976 We don't necessarily appreciate the value of that until we come into a community where that value is the key that unlocks something in Blackbird's case. 148 00:11:13,948 --> 00:11:14,638 man. 149 00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:25,275 I still spend a lot of time with my friends from the arts and the one thing that they don't, they don't, this isn't true of everybody, but I'd say many of them don't really 150 00:11:25,275 --> 00:11:33,979 understand what their great value is, what they know better than anybody else, because they're around other people who know this stuff. 151 00:11:33,979 --> 00:11:35,560 And it is their taste. 152 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:41,582 Like taste sounds pithy when you say it like that, but taste is the accumulation of 153 00:11:41,930 --> 00:11:44,622 all of the things that you've like experienced in your life. 154 00:11:44,622 --> 00:11:50,798 It's where you grew up, the language you speak, communities you're a part of, the music you've listened to, films you've watched. 155 00:11:50,798 --> 00:11:58,444 All of those things amalgamate and come together to form this idea of, form your own individual taste. 156 00:11:58,444 --> 00:12:03,438 And because your experiences are entirely unique to you, your taste is entirely unique. 157 00:12:03,438 --> 00:12:04,889 Nobody has it. 158 00:12:04,889 --> 00:12:10,798 And people in the arts have spent their entire life accumulating taste and accumulating things that 159 00:12:10,798 --> 00:12:16,098 make their taste in things rich and meaningful. 160 00:12:16,578 --> 00:12:22,638 Because they're surrounded by heaps of other people who've done that, don't necessarily see that that's a valuable thing. 161 00:12:22,778 --> 00:12:30,658 But it is like, there's this great woman, Daisy Alto, who I can tell you her surname, she runs a media company called Dirt. 162 00:12:30,658 --> 00:12:34,118 And she wrote a blog series called The Taste Economy. 163 00:12:34,478 --> 00:12:35,818 Go read it. 164 00:12:35,818 --> 00:12:38,730 it's basically it's like, 165 00:12:38,730 --> 00:12:48,996 It tries to argue or does argue that taste is actually this new, like it's probably one of the most valuable things that a person can accumulate. 166 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:53,679 And it's valuable because as I described, your taste is entirely unique to you. 167 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:59,663 And it means if you can acquire really good taste and it's totally unique to you, no one can ever copy you. 168 00:12:59,663 --> 00:13:05,550 the things that you make and what you can do with your taste are entirely unique

and special. 169 00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:11,750 And no one's got a chance of replicating exactly what you can do because you taste it your own. 170 00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:14,710 I forgot what we were talking about. 171 00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:16,130 No, that's brilliant. 172 00:13:16,130 --> 00:13:17,990 it leads right into my next question. 173 00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:26,270 And it's interesting that you use the words taste because in my work with peak performance with creatives, it would be more around what's your passion and where does that align with 174 00:13:26,270 --> 00:13:34,124 that curiosity, your interests and how does that translate into your unique purpose, which becomes your own unique value proposition once you mix it then with storytelling. 175 00:13:34,124 --> 00:13:35,975 I love that idea of it being taste. 176 00:13:35,975 --> 00:13:37,294 I'm gonna dive into that. 177 00:13:37,294 --> 00:13:42,794 Thank you for that link to that series too, because I'll drop it in the show notes for anybody who's interested. 178 00:13:42,794 --> 00:13:47,718 I wanna ask you then about your own creative process and the journey around that. 179 00:13:47,718 --> 00:13:59,721 I've been doing some reading and reviewing around insight and flow and some of the processes involved in not just having those aha moments, but then how to take the creative 180 00:13:59,721 --> 00:14:03,072 juice, if you like, the taste and then execute that. 181 00:14:03,072 --> 00:14:03,873 into impact. 182 00:14:03,873 --> 00:14:12,079 And I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on personally how that applies to you and then what you've seen of some of the high creatives that you've worked with who have been 183 00:14:12,079 --> 00:14:15,251 able to translate to something that others can enjoy as well. 184 00:14:15,552 --> 00:14:16,317 Great question. 185 00:14:16,317 --> 00:14:18,555 There's a few bits to there. 186 00:14:18,555 --> 00:14:23,559 So stop me from like, if I ramble a little bit, I love your rambles, Joel. 187 00:14:23,559 --> 00:14:24,530 You can ramble all day. 188 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:32,876 Well, so firstly, process, like it's taken years to find my own process that works for me. 189 00:14:34,382 --> 00:14:37,282 lot of just, just trying new things. 190 00:14:37,282 --> 00:14:41,081 And I've arrived at a place now where I feel pretty confident in my process. 191 00:14:41,081 --> 00:14:49,782 So what that means is when I need to find a solution to a problem or come up with something new or work out how to do something that I haven't done before, maybe something 192 00:14:49,782 --> 00:14:54,842 that I know that I know what I need to do to begin that journey. 193 00:14:54,902 --> 00:14:57,682 And the actual process itself is not that complicated. 194 00:14:57,682 --> 00:15:03,078 It's I just start, pretty simply with trying to work out. 195 00:15:03,150 --> 00:15:07,430 what the outcome is I'm trying to get to, what it is I'm hoping to achieve. 196 00:15:07,430 --> 00:15:11,270 And then I start looking for sources of inspiration. 197 00:15:12,250 --> 00:15:14,310 That's like the beginning of it. 198 00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:24,670 And those sources, like there's an intentionality to finding those sources where specifically saying, trying to come up with a theme for Sunrise, which is a startup 199 00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:26,450 festival that I run for Blackbird. 200 00:15:26,450 --> 00:15:29,340 Trying to come up with a theme, an overarching theme for it. 201 00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:30,870 How do I get to that? 202 00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:33,230 And so I start thinking, 203 00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:38,290 looking broadly, different media, different things that I find on the internet. 204 00:15:38,290 --> 00:15:39,330 I'll like pay attention. 205 00:15:39,330 --> 00:15:41,710 I'll pull more attention when I'm reading my newsletters. 206 00:15:41,710 --> 00:15:47,110 I subscribe to a whole bunch of really good newsletters that source of inspiration for me. 207 00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:50,790 And I'll just, look for opportunities to go down rabbit holes. 208 00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:54,650 Rabbit holes like what really makes things click for me. 209 00:15:55,190 --> 00:15:57,520 And it can take a little bit. 210 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,470 Like it doesn't, you have to like be patient. 211 00:16:00,470 --> 00:16:02,048 You can't like schedule. 212 00:16:02,048 --> 00:16:04,079 an hour here and an hour there to go and do it. 213 00:16:04,079 --> 00:16:07,840 I need blocks of time and I need to devote weeks to it. 214 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,061 So I'll start coming up with say the creative thing for sunrise. 215 00:16:11,061 --> 00:16:18,003 I'll start months before I knew it and I'll just start with a mindset that it is, need to figure out what this thing is going to be. 216 00:16:18,003 --> 00:16:22,284 And each week as I'm going about my life, I'm going to start, I will think about it. 217 00:16:22,284 --> 00:16:24,965 I'll be aware that I need to come up with that. 218 00:16:24,965 --> 00:16:30,556 And once you hit on like a rabbit hole and you start going down it, it all happens quite quickly from there. 219 00:16:30,606 --> 00:16:31,976 That's just how you come up with the ideation. 220 00:16:31,976 --> 00:16:32,996 use a lot of mood boards. 221 00:16:32,996 --> 00:16:39,866 I put a lot of stuff up there and the connection between ideas and concepts and images and words is quite fluid to me. 222 00:16:39,866 --> 00:16:42,346 And I'll put everything up and I'll start doing it. 223 00:16:42,346 --> 00:16:51,346 And then once I have like a big board of like ideas going on, I then start to try and synthesize some of the ideas in language that will help me communicate those ideas. 224 00:16:51,346 --> 00:16:56,718 There's something can be quite obvious to me and really clear in my mind, but 225 00:16:56,718 --> 00:16:58,918 It's useless just in my

mind. 226 00:16:58,918 --> 00:17:04,878 need to be able to communicate in ways that will be believable to people that they understand. 227 00:17:04,918 --> 00:17:14,318 And because I'm a conceptual thinker, that often means that in a lot of the people I work with are more, I guess, like, think kind of like high up, a lot of people I work with 228 00:17:14,318 --> 00:17:19,258 think on the ground first, and they might then go high up, but back to the ground. 229 00:17:19,258 --> 00:17:24,902 I have to be quite specific and give examples and kind of tell a story through it. 230 00:17:25,010 --> 00:17:27,461 That's just the ideation, but that's how you come up with the thing. 231 00:17:27,461 --> 00:17:33,293 But then from there, I think the second part of that question is really interesting. 232 00:17:33,514 --> 00:17:39,697 Particularly if you identify as a creative person, how do you actually have an impact? 233 00:17:39,697 --> 00:17:41,377 Because ideas are free. 234 00:17:41,377 --> 00:17:42,980 They're not to come up with them. 235 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:45,779 They're not good just on a piece of paper. 236 00:17:45,779 --> 00:17:52,590 You to figure out how to make the thing drive all the way from start to finish to completion. 237 00:17:52,590 --> 00:17:54,771 and to have the dedication and focus. 238 00:17:54,771 --> 00:17:56,931 And that's different to creativity to me. 239 00:17:56,931 --> 00:17:59,442 That's like that stage of the process is craft. 240 00:17:59,442 --> 00:18:02,803 That's where your skills, your techniques come into it. 241 00:18:02,803 --> 00:18:04,973 It's where your discipline and your focus. 242 00:18:04,973 --> 00:18:07,834 And I had trouble with that part for years. 243 00:18:09,275 --> 00:18:13,996 I had to build the skills that would enable me to actually bring things to life. 244 00:18:13,996 --> 00:18:19,487 so because my tendency is to get really stuck in the ideas and the conceptual because I love that. 245 00:18:19,487 --> 00:18:21,418 It's where I get a lot of energy from. 246 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:30,976 When I was younger, my tendency was to get, I would get caught up and lost in that and I would start, you know, I'd spin my wheels and nothing would happen. 247 00:18:31,297 --> 00:18:40,044 and I found, you know, I had to actively work to build systems and processes that would help me get past that. 248 00:18:40,044 --> 00:18:48,660 And that journey began with understanding myself and who I am and understanding my mind and how I work and how my energy works and where I get my energy from. 249 00:18:49,902 --> 00:18:54,022 Plenty of things, I'm sure you will have much better solutions for people. 250 00:18:54,022 --> 00:18:56,842 Like actually, you know, being a professional in this area. 251 00:18:56,842 --> 00:19:00,442 for me, was much psychometric tests. 252 00:19:00,542 --> 00:19:08,582 I mentioned before, an engram has been quite helpful to me, but other things as well, they're not perfect, but they kind of helped me to understand my own mind a little. 253 00:19:08,822 --> 00:19:17,922 And then once you understand yourself, you can start to build, you can start to build things that help you deal with, I don't want to say shortcomings, but deal with the things 254 00:19:17,922 --> 00:19:19,182 that you find challenging. 255 00:19:19,182 --> 00:19:20,014 Yeah. 256 00:19:20,014 --> 00:19:25,814 For me, the worst thing in the world is to be a creative person that doesn't make stuff. 257 00:19:25,814 --> 00:19:29,434 That to me is just terrific. 258 00:19:29,434 --> 00:19:39,014 Painful for me to think that I could think up so many cool things that people like and believe in, but never have any of them because I can't make shit. 259 00:19:39,294 --> 00:19:40,084 You know what I mean? 260 00:19:40,084 --> 00:19:41,484 I totally know what you mean. 261 00:19:41,484 --> 00:19:46,644 You know how you and I were saying before we jumped on this call and pressed record that I wouldn't give you any psychobabble? 262 00:19:46,644 --> 00:19:48,046 I'm going to give you the psychobabble. 263 00:19:48,046 --> 00:19:51,166 Because what you have just described, I'm so excited. 264 00:19:51,166 --> 00:19:58,366 You've literally described in lived experience terms, what the research says about the flow state, which is so cool. 265 00:19:58,366 --> 00:20:01,326 So I'm going link that to the episode below. 266 00:20:01,326 --> 00:20:10,306 But actually I just read an article on this and what is so interesting and to your point around why I get so excited and bang on about understanding your brain is because you 267 00:20:10,306 --> 00:20:16,596 can't build a creative package for yourself for that delivery unless you understand the biology that you're working with. 268 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:17,858 It's like your operational map. 269 00:20:17,858 --> 00:20:18,499 right? 270 00:20:18,499 --> 00:20:27,227 So what I heard you say is that you've got to go from that big what we call divergent thinking, which is the that experience of I can see and feel and hear everything in images 271 00:20:27,227 --> 00:20:30,029 and metaphors and all the patterns are making sense. 272 00:20:30,029 --> 00:20:37,556 And a lot of people in our ADHD community, our high creatives are highly ambitious people out of the box thinkers will have that experience. 273 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:40,859 The challenge is then how do we switch on the convergent thinking? 274 00:20:40,859 --> 00:20:43,874 And that's the drill and the discipline that I'm hearing you talk about. 275 00:20:43,874 --> 00:20:47,076 And that's where the craft comes in of executing on your goal. 276 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:56,323 And it's all the stuff that naturally divergent thinkers or ADHD people, neurodivergent people, if we take it to that, you know, labeling end, which we don't have to, it doesn't 277 00:20:56,323 --> 00:20:58,424 come necessarily naturally to our

brains. 278 00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:05,249 And what's really cool about what I've found in the research is that's partly to do with something in our brain called the imagination network. 279 00:21:05,249 --> 00:21:10,203 So in neurotypical people, the imagination network will need to be fired up. 280 00:21:10,203 --> 00:21:12,424 They need to do practices to fire it up. 281 00:21:12,878 --> 00:21:14,079 because it doesn't come naturally. 282 00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:16,061 The opposite is true for neurodivergent people. 283 00:21:16,061 --> 00:21:24,328 Their imagination network is always fired on, but it needs to be able to dial down to get to a point where we can then switch on the discipline for the craft. 284 00:21:24,328 --> 00:21:31,213 And so when you know what your brain basis is, you know which one you got to switch a lever on intentionally and which one's going to come more naturally. 285 00:21:31,213 --> 00:21:33,945 So I'm just like, yeah, I'm so excited. 286 00:21:33,945 --> 00:21:37,818 You've literally captured that process in real life for people. 287 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,181 I think I might be neurodivergent. 288 00:21:42,216 --> 00:21:45,589 I've never been formally diagnosed. 289 00:21:45,589 --> 00:21:53,175 way you just described it sounds very close to how I feel and experience this. 290 00:21:53,175 --> 00:21:58,209 And this is what's really exciting to me in that way, because I don't know, people are going to disagree with me on this. 291 00:21:58,209 --> 00:22:01,962 think labels are helpful, and particularly when you're seeking support. 292 00:22:01,962 --> 00:22:06,722 Some of those medical labels that we've got around neurodivergence are extremely helpful. 293 00:22:06,722 --> 00:22:10,604 But actually, Scott Barry Kaufman wrote an article on this, and I'll drop it in the link. 294 00:22:10,604 --> 00:22:18,457 And he was arguing, maybe the medicalization of ADHD, if we take that away, you're talking about super creative, innovative people here. 295 00:22:18,457 --> 00:22:20,908 yeah, it's really interesting. 296 00:22:20,908 --> 00:22:22,809 Anyway, go on, I interrupted you. 297 00:22:22,809 --> 00:22:32,204 No, no, I was just going to say, I think the labeling, like to me, I mean, taking away the medical, to me, the labeling of things actually helps you to understand it. 298 00:22:32,204 --> 00:22:33,602 It just mentions like, 299 00:22:33,602 --> 00:22:42,249 I think that's been the great power of like the Psychometric Test and the Engram and things like that is they hope to give a name and a description to something that you feel 300 00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:46,373 that you might not have known what to call before or that you might not have understood. 301 00:22:46,373 --> 00:22:55,830 So I think that, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing to give something a framework from which you can understand. 302 00:22:55,830 --> 00:23:02,798 would never would have liked, without those tools, I never would have understood why it is. 303 00:23:02,798 --> 00:23:07,638 I'm so, I've experienced difference relative to my colleagues. 304 00:23:07,798 --> 00:23:12,168 Many of my colleagues, so I particularly ones that work with at the moment, they're not really tainted. 305 00:23:12,168 --> 00:23:15,598 They know how to move through a list very, very systematically. 306 00:23:15,618 --> 00:23:19,098 They get satisfaction from crossing tasks off lists. 307 00:23:19,098 --> 00:23:24,018 They're really great at like, at like driving things forward. 308 00:23:24,018 --> 00:23:28,548 I don't get a single bit of any satisfaction from crossing something off the list. 309 00:23:28,548 --> 00:23:30,218 It doesn't do anything for me. 310 00:23:30,218 --> 00:23:32,002 It doesn't do anything for me. 311 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:40,335 And I, but I never would have understood how there are types of people who can do this stuff so well. 312 00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:43,078 And you know, I can't, why can't I? 313 00:23:43,078 --> 00:23:50,763 And I just never would have understood why that is without some of these tools that helped me to kind of, you know, get my mind around it. 314 00:23:50,763 --> 00:23:57,727 But then I never would have also understood, you know, what some of the strengths that I have are and how to use those really, really well. 315 00:23:58,408 --> 00:24:01,800 so yeah, I, yeah, everyone's different. 316 00:24:02,030 --> 00:24:04,370 And that's the thing, everyone's different. 317 00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:14,830 I think the ability, as you said, being in an ecosystem, and if you're not in an ecosystem and you're a founder at home or working from home, you're right, that can be tough because 318 00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:22,550 you don't necessarily have those natural players to offset your strengths and their strengths or your challenges against their challenges. 319 00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:31,290 When you're working in a team in an ecosystem, you can kind of wrap some more rigorous structures around who is delegated to what task. 320 00:24:31,468 --> 00:24:36,181 I'm really curious of the creatives, because you've spent a lot of time working with some big performers. 321 00:24:36,181 --> 00:24:44,887 And I imagine seeing lots of different folk come through the doors of Blackbird, both in that higher level startup ecosystem, and then also the youth philanthropic arm that you've 322 00:24:44,887 --> 00:24:45,628 got. 323 00:24:45,628 --> 00:24:54,613 What have been some of the common patterns you've seen of the strengths that you see come through the door of people who've got real big ideas for innovation? 324 00:24:55,374 --> 00:25:01,378 Well, I think, so I mean, my ideas on this are informed both by the 325 00:25:01,430 --> 00:25:13,361 my experiences at Blackbird and the founders that we've worked with at Blackbird as well as their foundation, which I can tell you also it's been informed by the work with artists 326

00:25:13,361 --> 00:25:14,194 as well. 327 00:25:14,194 --> 00:25:27,498 first thing that I'll say is that the thing that was most surprising and like beautiful for me to recognize when I got to Blackbird, it's when I arrived again coming from the 328 00:25:27,498 --> 00:25:29,458 arts, working with bands. 329 00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:34,270 I was like traveling the world, going to music festivals, hanging out in dingy little clubs. 330 00:25:34,270 --> 00:25:36,970 It was a really fun, awesome job. 331 00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:39,950 It wasn't, I wouldn't say that a professional job. 332 00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:42,830 One of the things that, I mean, we weren't professional. 333 00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:45,010 We got good at our job by the end. 334 00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:53,010 One of the things that I was afraid of and nervous about coming to Blackbird was that I'm coming from the arts to financial services, essentially. 335 00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:58,698 We tried to make Blackbird something more than a financial services business, but the time I like, coming to this thing. 336 00:25:58,698 --> 00:26:00,268 What do I know about founders? 337 00:26:00,268 --> 00:26:01,869 What do I know about startups? 338 00:26:01,869 --> 00:26:03,899 What do know about finance or investing? 339 00:26:03,899 --> 00:26:06,340 don't know any of those things and if done, I've never seen it. 340 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,201 Didn't know anything about it. 341 00:26:08,201 --> 00:26:19,564 And one of things that was most surprising to me and comforting when I landed was that the type of person that can create a company, the type of person that can create a song, 342 00:26:19,764 --> 00:26:22,965 there's not that much distance between those two people. 343 00:26:23,265 --> 00:26:26,146 the personality type and the 344 00:26:26,338 --> 00:26:31,979 the things that you need to bring something into the world where there was not anything previously. 345 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,560 They're very, very similar. 346 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,701 Like they're both engaged in acts of creation as a fundamental. 347 00:26:39,162 --> 00:26:40,432 They're creating different things. 348 00:26:40,432 --> 00:26:42,042 It's like their medium is different. 349 00:26:42,042 --> 00:26:47,004 Someone's building a company, know, building a team and those other things. 350 00:26:47,004 --> 00:26:51,005 And someone is like writing a song, making a movie, making a film. 351 00:26:51,005 --> 00:26:52,915 Film's easier to understand when you think about it. 352 00:26:52,915 --> 00:26:56,306 Because making a film is more akin to a story, isn't it? 353 00:26:56,642 --> 00:27:03,665 You can have an idea and a vision for something, either if you're a founder or a film maker. 354 00:27:03,665 --> 00:27:11,918 If you make a film, you write a script, and let's say you're the director, you then have to spend, once you've done the creative work, the ideation, the story of the building, you 355 00:27:11,918 --> 00:27:21,152 then have to go on this long journey of finding people to help you make it, that are experts in their own discipline, and that can bring your vision to life. 356 00:27:21,152 --> 00:27:22,963 That's not so different to what a founder does. 357 00:27:22,963 --> 00:27:25,014 In fact, some of it's exactly the same work. 358 00:27:25,014 --> 00:27:26,054 The process. 359 00:27:26,382 --> 00:27:32,112 Yeah, and so they come to Blackburn and say that, like the archetype for a founder and an artist is the same thing. 360 00:27:32,112 --> 00:27:34,502 Like they're just playing in different areas. 361 00:27:34,502 --> 00:27:38,462 Like that thing to me was really interesting to see. 362 00:27:38,462 --> 00:27:50,162 And I guess like the stuff that like, if I'm trying, if I try and like describe what those two personalities or those two types of people have, first thing that I'd say is that it's 363 00:27:50,162 --> 00:27:54,260 like, it's like seeing something in the world. 364 00:27:54,434 --> 00:28:04,017 They both see something different in the world or they have a view of the way the world should be, or they have a view, an interesting perspective on the world or something 365 00:28:04,017 --> 00:28:05,317 within the world. 366 00:28:05,317 --> 00:28:13,420 And they're driven to express that in some way or to make something that addresses that difference that they see. 367 00:28:13,420 --> 00:28:21,326 So to me, those sorts of people, like the skill sets that you need, the tactical skills that you need to be able to bring those things to life. 368 00:28:21,326 --> 00:28:26,086 First of all, some kind of craft or discipline or profession I think is usually helpful. 369 00:28:26,086 --> 00:28:28,286 So it could be a software engineer. 370 00:28:28,286 --> 00:28:34,826 It could be, you know, how to use a paintbrush, you know, wherever it is, it's like a tactical skillset that will help you make the thing. 371 00:28:34,826 --> 00:28:37,686 But then the personality things that are nice. 372 00:28:37,686 --> 00:28:48,326 First of all, like you definitely need like, you definitely need to have some determination about it because the process of bringing something to life is never 373 00:28:48,326 --> 00:28:49,506 straightforward. 374 00:28:50,414 --> 00:28:52,254 straight line from beginning to end. 375 00:28:52,254 --> 00:28:55,654 always ups and downs and you run into challenges and difficulties. 376 00:28:55,654 --> 00:29:03,374 So in tech world, we say grit, determination, I would have those sorts of descriptors. 377 00:29:03,374 --> 00:29:06,194 I just think it's like a perseverance. 378 00:29:06,674 --> 00:29:12,174 It's a focus on the thing that you want to make and that is what... 379 00:29:12,174 --> 00:29:17,998 The other thing that the other skill sets that or attributes, I guess, that will get you to 380 00:29:17,998 --> 00:29:23,158 through that, that will make it possible

for you to move through the creation of something. 381 00:29:23,638 --> 00:29:30,238 You are curious and that makes it possible for you to be a self-directed learner. 382 00:29:30,238 --> 00:29:32,738 A person who can learn anything, learn it on your own. 383 00:29:32,738 --> 00:29:37,378 I think that both artists and founders are the same. 384 00:29:37,818 --> 00:29:40,898 We say at Blackboard we look for learned adults as well. 385 00:29:42,878 --> 00:29:47,022 Artists themselves, if you've ever worked with it, I've worked a lot of 386 00:29:47,022 --> 00:29:58,542 musicians, they literally like teach them, they might go to sing lessons to play the instrument, but the act of learning to write a song, have you ever like, I've never seen a 387 00:29:58,542 --> 00:30:01,122 place that you can teach you how to a song. 388 00:30:01,122 --> 00:30:08,882 You can go to music school where they'll teach composition, but how to like create something that has meaning and that makes people feel things. 389 00:30:08,882 --> 00:30:09,812 comes from somewhere else. 390 00:30:09,812 --> 00:30:11,802 It's a different source code, isn't it? 391 00:30:11,802 --> 00:30:12,482 Yeah. 392 00:30:12,482 --> 00:30:16,184 And like, if there's no obvious place to go and be taught that, 393 00:30:16,184 --> 00:30:19,827 that I know of or that I've seen, that means that you have to learn it yourself. 394 00:30:19,827 --> 00:30:24,260 And that's where you taste any idea of culture and those things come into play. 395 00:30:24,260 --> 00:30:28,675 There's probably other things, how do they sound? 396 00:30:28,675 --> 00:30:29,746 I think they're brilliant. 397 00:30:29,746 --> 00:30:33,169 I'm just like, nodding and giggling and smiling. 398 00:30:33,550 --> 00:30:41,817 I've been reading the Art of Impossible or sharing with you earlier Stephen Kotler's work and a lot of what you've just mentioned there in terms of the different personality types, 399 00:30:41,817 --> 00:30:43,126 the archetypes. 400 00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:48,478 I love that idea that you shared as well that, you know, the creative, it's about finding your medium. 401 00:30:48,478 --> 00:30:58,913 It's about finding the tool, you know, whatever that is in, order to sort of, feels like a groundedness of how do you, how do you express this creativity in the world? 402 00:30:58,913 --> 00:31:01,466 And that's such a different journey for everybody. 403 00:31:01,466 --> 00:31:09,708 I haven't shared openly publicly yet because, you know, he's a little bit, he's a little bit ahead of his time, but my son who's 15, who's a, who's a twice exceptional super quick 404 00:31:09,708 --> 00:31:10,518 kid. 405 00:31:11,170 --> 00:31:17,153 has just started up his rap music and is currently number one on TikTok in Australia. 406 00:31:17,153 --> 00:31:18,153 No. 407 00:31:18,153 --> 00:31:20,054 I'm not even lying. 408 00:31:20,114 --> 00:31:28,418 But what's really interesting again, diving into this research is understanding that, so they've studied rappers, they've studied jazz improvisers. 409 00:31:28,438 --> 00:31:37,346 And to your point of like, what's the stretch between these incredible artistic creative musicians and then entrepreneurship and founders? 410 00:31:37,346 --> 00:31:39,477 I mean, my son's incredibly entrepreneurial. 411 00:31:39,477 --> 00:31:44,550 think he started his first business when he was 12, kids making more money than me at this point in time. 412 00:31:44,550 --> 00:31:50,934 And that brain type that just can clock in and see things differently, but then to execute. 413 00:31:50,934 --> 00:31:53,205 that is fascinating to me. 414 00:31:53,205 --> 00:31:57,818 know, what part of it is natural skill and gift and talent and strength. 415 00:31:57,818 --> 00:32:05,292 And then to your point, where's the discipline of the grit and the determination, the perseverance, and how much of that is driven by? 416 00:32:05,292 --> 00:32:07,954 almost like a dog that has to chew on the bone kind of feeling. 417 00:32:07,954 --> 00:32:16,551 I don't know about you, but for me, it's like, if I've got a problem that I'm, that I'm riffing on, that problem is just not going to get left alone until I've got a solution, 418 00:32:16,551 --> 00:32:19,854 which is interesting because in the research, they'll talk about stupid grit. 419 00:32:19,854 --> 00:32:28,091 And I don't know, I haven't yet met a startup founder or a musician or an artist that has a sense of what I would call stupid grit. 420 00:32:28,091 --> 00:32:31,543 just, it's, it's, it's a, it's perseverant problem. 421 00:32:32,224 --> 00:32:34,686 But yeah, I don't know if that brings up anything for you. 422 00:32:35,182 --> 00:32:37,632 Yeah, a couple of thoughts, a couple of thoughts based on what you've said. 423 00:32:37,632 --> 00:32:42,032 So the first thing I'll say is that like creativity is a birthright. 424 00:32:42,032 --> 00:32:43,082 We all have it. 425 00:32:43,082 --> 00:32:46,422 Everybody is creative from the moment that we're born. 426 00:32:46,422 --> 00:32:56,342 It gets trained out of us and we get taught to, we get taught to, and this is, just mentioned there is a few things, freestyle rappers, jazz musicians, people with the 427 00:32:56,342 --> 00:33:03,582 ability to improvise who have no block between what's going on in their mind or what they want to express. 428 00:33:03,582 --> 00:33:04,722 Incredible. 429 00:33:04,824 --> 00:33:11,106 So what happens is I think, I'm sure there's research on this, but as we grow up, these little kids don't have the block. 430 00:33:11,106 --> 00:33:12,376 There's nothing there. 431 00:33:12,376 --> 00:33:16,757 Like they just can express exactly what they want within their own means. 432 00:33:16,777 --> 00:33:18,958 like, know, brain still developing. 433 00:33:18,958 --> 00:33:27,130 But then as we get older, we get all these like, you know, distortion filters and

things put in front of it to stop us from maybe the socialization, maybe it's education. 434 00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:33,994 don't know, but like, freestyle rap is super interesting to me because they are able to just get 435 00:33:33,994 --> 00:33:36,155 out exactly what's in their mind. 436 00:33:36,155 --> 00:33:39,276 And that to me, like I think everybody has that within them. 437 00:33:39,276 --> 00:33:46,978 That's a training to remove the blockages is a training, but everyone's got the mind that's capable of being creative. 438 00:33:46,978 --> 00:33:51,599 And we say that in the foundation I run for Blackboard foundation. 439 00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:54,420 The mission is to unleash creativity in young people. 440 00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:59,232 And one of the things that we say is that it is like everybody has this thing in them. 441 00:33:59,232 --> 00:34:01,134 It's just that 442 00:34:01,134 --> 00:34:06,194 most people as adults, needs to be unleashed, needs to be unlocked. 443 00:34:06,454 --> 00:34:10,994 And there are different, you know, people can create different levels of things. 444 00:34:10,994 --> 00:34:21,134 Like, I'm not saying that there isn't a difference between a highly talented artist or singer or whatever, and someone who's just learning. 445 00:34:21,134 --> 00:34:27,514 Of course, is a difference between those things, but the act of creation is something that we're all capable of. 446 00:34:27,514 --> 00:34:28,422 is 447 00:34:28,438 --> 00:34:33,361 It is the one, it is the thing that human beings do different to every other species. 448 00:34:33,361 --> 00:34:36,563 The reason that we have, that we progress at all. 449 00:34:36,684 --> 00:34:41,787 This idea that we can make things and put stuff into the world that was not there before. 450 00:34:41,787 --> 00:34:43,027 Yeah. 451 00:34:43,268 --> 00:34:52,995 And, you know, I don't think there's any reason why, you know, why we can't live in a world where like everybody has like a little bit of something to offer where they make, 452 00:34:52,995 --> 00:34:57,297 they are able to create things from their own experience, their own tastes. 453 00:34:58,402 --> 00:34:59,022 I love that. 454 00:34:59,022 --> 00:35:05,174 And for me, I'm thinking about the simplest of acts and expressions of creativity that I see and I appreciate. 455 00:35:05,174 --> 00:35:15,081 And it's things like a meal that somebody's brought to the table that I haven't seen done or tasted before and their expression of how they even present that meal and the music 456 00:35:15,081 --> 00:35:22,015 that they put with that meal, the way that they set up the room when you walk in, a conversation that you have with somebody that sparks a new insight, then that ripple 457 00:35:22,015 --> 00:35:25,562 effect that goes on to have its next moment in time. 458 00:35:25,562 --> 00:35:27,630 I mean, these are all just mini 459 00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:29,090 moments of creativity. 460 00:35:29,090 --> 00:35:31,850 So I love that you're bringing that home. 461 00:35:31,850 --> 00:35:33,170 Yeah, well, just expressions. 462 00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:37,610 They're just expressions of things that you feel and ideas that you have. 463 00:35:37,850 --> 00:35:40,290 Creativity is how come up with it. 464 00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:44,430 The attitude making something from creativity is the expression. 465 00:35:44,650 --> 00:35:45,710 Yeah. 466 00:35:45,950 --> 00:35:55,550 think the world would be a richer and more beautiful place if we were all just a little bit more able to remove those interference fields and make it little bit more freely. 467 00:35:56,242 --> 00:35:59,082 Yeah, I can't help but dive in with a couple of tips there. 468 00:35:59,082 --> 00:36:04,002 What's really interesting is there are a couple of different types of meditative practices that you can do. 469 00:36:04,002 --> 00:36:13,062 So one will open up your mindset and access that imagination at work and the other one will help you to be able to access and converge the data if you like or the detail in 470 00:36:13,062 --> 00:36:13,612 front of you. 471 00:36:13,612 --> 00:36:20,327 So if you're needing to be able to open up, you want to be able to go and do practices in nature where you're grounding yourself. 472 00:36:20,327 --> 00:36:25,008 noticing the environment around you, expanding your expression of self beyond. 473 00:36:25,008 --> 00:36:30,130 So can you see, smell, hear, feel, taste, touch out in nature? 474 00:36:30,130 --> 00:36:38,592 If you wanted to do the opposite and bring it back in and get really detailed, that's where you go to your single breath types of practices or a mantra practice. 475 00:36:38,812 --> 00:36:45,378 So what's really cool is coming out of these high performance, high creativity protocols that once we understand 476 00:36:45,378 --> 00:36:52,470 the brains that we're working with and the biology that we've got naturally, we can kind of hack around the challenges, which leads me into my one of my last questions for you 477 00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:54,440 before we get to our quick fire round. 478 00:36:54,701 --> 00:37:04,773 What are some of the challenges that you notice amongst highly creative people that you work with or within yourself that can sometimes get in the way if we accept that self 479 00:37:04,773 --> 00:37:08,444 beliefs can be one of them that we all need to move on? 480 00:37:08,444 --> 00:37:10,805 What are some other challenges that you notice? 481 00:37:11,625 --> 00:37:15,126 I think the first thing is I think most people 482 00:37:15,438 --> 00:37:17,378 And this is what I experienced. 483 00:37:17,378 --> 00:37:24,158 A lot of people don't identify as creative because the word creative is tied to the arts. 484 00:37:24,158 --> 00:37:28,718 And so if you don't have an arts practice, a lot of people just don't think of themselves as creative. 485 00:37:28,718 -->

00:37:33,278 So that's the first thing I'd say is just this limiting idea of what creativity actually is. 486 00:37:33,278 --> 00:37:36,018 I think a lot of people experience that. 487 00:37:36,018 --> 00:37:37,128 I experienced that. 488 00:37:37,128 --> 00:37:39,218 A lot of people I work with experience that. 489 00:37:39,218 --> 00:37:45,134 When we first launched, we have a grant program that we run through the foundation called Proto Stars, which is 490 00:37:45,134 --> 00:37:49,574 We give micro grants to young people under 25 with passion projects. 491 00:37:49,894 --> 00:37:52,034 Now, passion projects are super diverse. 492 00:37:52,034 --> 00:38:03,974 They're like, we have one young dude who drives a Toyota Land Cruiser around the outback with a truck full of robotics in the back and gives robotics workshops to young kids in 493 00:38:03,974 --> 00:38:05,194 schools. 494 00:38:05,194 --> 00:38:12,642 then one person who's a finalist and wanted to flip from portraits to landscapes. 495 00:38:12,642 --> 00:38:14,573 So she, you know, she wanted to do an exhibition. 496 00:38:14,573 --> 00:38:18,084 So we have all this like really very big difference between all of them. 497 00:38:18,084 --> 00:38:20,485 This program didn't work in the beginning. 498 00:38:20,485 --> 00:38:24,707 The first time I launched it was when we launched the foundation and it didn't work. 499 00:38:24,707 --> 00:38:29,729 didn't get any applications for it because I didn't say some projects, I said creative. 500 00:38:29,889 --> 00:38:34,031 I said, we're looking for people with creative projects. 501 00:38:34,031 --> 00:38:35,752 And you know what I got? 502 00:38:35,752 --> 00:38:40,223 Theater, couple of films, but not very much at That is so interesting. 503 00:38:40,223 --> 00:38:41,804 A language barrier. 504 00:38:41,932 --> 00:38:44,003 We flipped it to passion projects. 505 00:38:44,003 --> 00:38:44,453 Guess what? 506 00:38:44,453 --> 00:38:46,384 Everyone's passionate about something. 507 00:38:46,604 --> 00:38:54,767 And so, and we intentionally just got to the sorts of things that we thought were considered passion projects. 508 00:38:54,767 --> 00:39:01,850 And of course we had the most diverse group of young people with the most diverse group of passions and interests. 509 00:39:01,850 --> 00:39:06,662 So that's the first thing I would say is like the limiting things, the stuff, the challenges, the barriers that people create. 510 00:39:06,662 --> 00:39:11,294 People have, especially most people who are creative don't see themselves as creative. 511 00:39:12,066 --> 00:39:18,148 That's something I would encourage people to try and do is expand their understanding of what creativity is. 512 00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:29,493 Then the really tactical things which you would be familiar with, which we talked about a little bit earlier, is like for me personally and for others that I've seen is how do you 513 00:39:29,493 --> 00:39:37,927 actually build the discipline or a craft or whatever it is to actually make something that would creativity. 514 00:39:37,927 --> 00:39:39,207 What is there as an expression? 515 00:39:39,207 --> 00:39:40,378 Ideas are like ourselves. 516 00:39:40,378 --> 00:39:41,582 Everyone's got one. 517 00:39:41,582 --> 00:39:46,342 think that's kind of true in the sense that it's so easy to come up with ideas. 518 00:39:46,342 --> 00:39:54,822 It's not necessarily easy, ideas are just in your own mind unless you choose to do something with them and to make something with them. 519 00:39:54,822 --> 00:40:04,022 You don't have to make something of every idea, obviously, but I think that the discipline and the craft and the skills are important to putting something to life, the different 520 00:40:04,022 --> 00:40:07,662 disciplines to the ideation and the creativity. 521 00:40:07,662 --> 00:40:10,242 And so it's the development of those things. 522 00:40:10,242 --> 00:40:11,638 like we talked about, 523 00:40:12,334 --> 00:40:14,454 towards that is understanding yourself. 524 00:40:14,454 --> 00:40:17,344 then because everything's like, there's no set answer. 525 00:40:17,344 --> 00:40:22,704 don't think like, for me, was, I couldn't read a single book that would tell me exactly what to do. 526 00:40:22,704 --> 00:40:24,284 I to read a few different things. 527 00:40:24,284 --> 00:40:32,454 I had to understand myself and I had to experiment and build processes and practices and skill sets that I didn't have previously, but they're unique to me. 528 00:40:32,454 --> 00:40:34,934 They weren't, they're not the same for everybody. 529 00:40:34,934 --> 00:40:42,182 So I think that like, you know, that ability to be able to build that, those, you know, that 530 00:40:42,382 --> 00:40:46,612 those skill sets and practices that help them bring something to life. 531 00:40:46,612 --> 00:40:48,382 think that's crucial. 532 00:40:49,462 --> 00:40:56,532 Something you could use is if you are creative, it's possible, then you're most probably good at learning and self-directed learning. 533 00:40:56,532 --> 00:40:58,802 So it's possible for you to learn those things and build it. 534 00:40:58,802 --> 00:41:02,142 It just takes a little bit of experimenting into their practice. 535 00:41:02,402 --> 00:41:09,342 And then the other thing I'd say that's about the people is that I don't think people need until you really need it. 536 00:41:09,342 --> 00:41:10,508 It really 537 00:41:10,508 --> 00:41:13,521 value creativity as much as I think they should. 538 00:41:13,521 --> 00:41:16,163 And I think that's because it's less tangible. 539 00:41:16,163 --> 00:41:25,331 it's, it's, like, it's not like saying I'm my, talk about it in a professional context. 540 00:41:25,331 --> 00:41:30,595 My job is, I'm a teacher. 541 00:41:30,595 --> 00:41:37,701 Like that is a discipline as well known, but it's understood there's a lot of things and

skills and attributes and training you need to do to be able to become a teacher. 542 00:41:37,701 --> 00:41:39,282 But like it's. 543 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:41,191 It's understood what that is. 544 00:41:41,192 --> 00:41:45,845 If you talk about creativity with someone, it's sort of a little bit more ephemeral. 545 00:41:45,845 --> 00:41:55,543 It's not as easy for them to latch onto what that means and what skills and attributes and training you need to do to become a creative person. 546 00:41:55,543 --> 00:42:04,991 And then it's not also entirely clear what the output of that might be unless you specifically apply it to, say, a discipline like painting or whatever. 547 00:42:04,991 --> 00:42:09,164 So I think like, yeah, they're my ideas. 548 00:42:09,484 --> 00:42:10,915 Yeah, I think they're great. 549 00:42:10,915 --> 00:42:14,776 It's funny, I'm thinking of my own creative process as well. 550 00:42:14,776 --> 00:42:18,838 And I don't know if you noticed this in the startup community. 551 00:42:18,838 --> 00:42:30,303 When I first took a dive into entrepreneurialism and took my craft from the theatre and performing arts and then combined that with what I started to understand about psychology. 552 00:42:30,303 --> 00:42:33,755 And at the time, I don't even think the buzzword science communication were around. 553 00:42:33,755 --> 00:42:36,666 And people would ask me, well, what do you do? 554 00:42:37,144 --> 00:42:46,413 And I would try and technically describe that in a way that was more, scale positive psychology and performance psychology concepts to people so that rather than having to be 555 00:42:46,413 --> 00:42:50,646 in a one in one environment that they can learn and apply themselves. 556 00:42:50,727 --> 00:42:55,551 And the effort that would, that the other person, you know, even as I say, I'm like, even that sounds ridiculous. 557 00:42:55,551 --> 00:42:56,782 Cause that's not really what it is. 558 00:42:56,782 --> 00:43:03,118 It's how do you, how do you wrap words around something that is new that hasn't, hasn't necessarily been done before. 559 00:43:03,118 --> 00:43:08,478 And so like you said, you can feel it when you, when you can see and hear and feel the creative process. 560 00:43:08,478 --> 00:43:14,938 go watch a show or you listen to a piece of music or you watch somebody unearth something for the first time. 561 00:43:14,938 --> 00:43:20,738 all have a sense of the essence of creativity, but yeah, I really like what you've described there. 562 00:43:20,738 --> 00:43:24,328 And I encourage anybody who's listening to, to, do some of the discipline. 563 00:43:24,328 --> 00:43:31,478 I'm going to do this off the back of our call, do some of the discipline around wrapping the language to, to, and the storytelling. 564 00:43:31,478 --> 00:43:33,004 There's a big piece of that, isn't it? 565 00:43:33,004 --> 00:43:41,916 the storytelling to how you express your natural set of passions, skills,

strengths, and purpose in the world, because that's where the impact lies. 566 00:43:42,977 --> 00:43:44,567 There's something in the storytelling there. 567 00:43:44,567 --> 00:43:46,568 You've given me some things to think about. 568 00:43:46,568 --> 00:43:49,199 My own divergent, he's going wild. 569 00:43:49,199 --> 00:43:52,880 Am I trying to grab it from the end? 570 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,340 Like how to express your ideas is so... 571 00:43:56,441 --> 00:43:58,241 It's a skill in itself. 572 00:43:58,241 --> 00:44:01,562 In a professional context, it often comes... 573 00:44:01,582 --> 00:44:07,882 I always find it much, I've always found it much easier to show people what I mean, rather than to try and tell them what I mean. 574 00:44:07,882 --> 00:44:08,922 Me too. 575 00:44:09,002 --> 00:44:12,222 But that is, that in itself is a bit of storytelling. 576 00:44:12,282 --> 00:44:23,782 But if you're a conceptual thinker, creative person, when you have ideas, being able to help people to understand those ideas is like, it is almost the most important thing that 577 00:44:23,782 --> 00:44:25,022 you can learn how to do. 578 00:44:25,022 --> 00:44:27,262 At least so you can learn how to do. 579 00:44:27,702 --> 00:44:30,990 But those, like, part of being a creative 580 00:44:30,990 --> 00:44:38,995 person and part of like inspiring people with ideas and bringing them on a journey and getting them to help you is getting them to understand it. 581 00:44:39,136 --> 00:44:47,431 And I think like most, for most people, the things they want to make have a better chance of being successful if you're able to build it with other people or you're able to people 582 00:44:47,431 --> 00:44:51,464 along and get them to support you and believe in it or help you with it. 583 00:44:51,464 --> 00:45:00,865 And you can't do that unless you've got the skill sets to be able to clearly and succinctly communicate, you know, what it is you think and what your ideas are. 584 00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:02,952 And like I said, it's all, it's a practice. 585 00:45:02,952 --> 00:45:05,594 It's a practice that you can get good at. 586 00:45:05,594 --> 00:45:06,905 Yeah, it is a practice. 587 00:45:06,905 --> 00:45:13,360 And I think when you're surrounded by an ecosystem, that's a practice that you can, you can kind of riff with other people where that is their strength. 588 00:45:13,441 --> 00:45:19,465 For those who are listening, because I know we've got a really high proportion of, of solopreneurs in our listener community. 589 00:45:19,806 --> 00:45:30,040 I'm really excited to share we're working on an AI enhanced chat bot effectively that helps to take that big, what we call circular thinking or the big visions and 590 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,632 train people to be able to get some linear thinking and storytelling into their communications. 591 00:45:35,632 --> 00:45:46,417 So what really excites me about the intersectionality of technology and then these human skills that we've got as creativity is I think we can start to lean in a little bit more 592 00:45:46,417 --> 00:45:56,951 on technology to be able to buffer some of those challenges that those of us with more divergent thinking brains or neurodivergent brains experience because, know, why not? 593 00:45:56,951 --> 00:45:58,540 We want to plug in the gap somewhere. 594 00:45:58,540 --> 00:46:04,254 So I think it's gonna be really interesting the next few years to see how technology can support people. 595 00:46:04,415 --> 00:46:13,582 And I'm also up for creating more space for ecosystems because unless we use each other as humans, that's where the magic lies really, isn't it? 596 00:46:14,223 --> 00:46:15,264 Yeah, totally. 597 00:46:15,264 --> 00:46:24,371 I think like just thinking then as you were describing that, there's a profession that does it really well, the storytelling. 598 00:46:24,972 --> 00:46:27,424 taking the highly creative people 599 00:46:27,438 --> 00:46:35,278 They're very conceptual thinkers and they're at actually creating action and making products from their creativity. 600 00:46:35,278 --> 00:46:38,518 They're also great at telling the story and that's advertisers. 601 00:46:38,518 --> 00:46:41,098 I don't like the products and they kind of like ads. 602 00:46:41,098 --> 00:46:48,978 But if you think about the skill sets, are like, think ad agencies have some of the most creative people in the world working for them. 603 00:46:48,978 --> 00:46:51,908 also have up to 73 % of ADHDs, by the way. 604 00:46:51,908 --> 00:46:53,078 Did you know that? 605 00:46:53,078 --> 00:46:53,938 No, I didn't. 606 00:46:53,938 --> 00:46:55,106 That's really interesting. 607 00:46:55,106 --> 00:46:56,667 Which is fascinating. 608 00:46:56,667 --> 00:47:05,704 Well, I'm not surprised, when to use it to your point, when when the execution is the power there, like that, we want to we want to get to know that population. 609 00:47:05,704 --> 00:47:08,225 yeah, advertising, go on, share more. 610 00:47:08,225 --> 00:47:09,636 Well, we learn from them. 611 00:47:09,636 --> 00:47:12,112 Like I said, I don't think I don't like the products. 612 00:47:12,112 --> 00:47:13,849 I don't think that's that useful in the world. 613 00:47:13,849 --> 00:47:22,996 But like, if you think about the journey, these people have to go in with the skill that they use is how to actually first of all, harness the creativity, but then a huge part of 614 00:47:22,996 --> 00:47:23,544 it. 615 00:47:23,544 --> 00:47:27,895 They go to school to learn how to do this, communication of their ideas. 616 00:47:27,895 --> 00:47:30,586 And they learn this through the language they use as pitching. 617 00:47:30,586 --> 00:47:32,836 They learn how to pitch ideas. 618 00:47:32,997 --> 00:47:37,078 if you're a creator, an agency, you spend a lot of your time pitching ideas. 619 00:47:37,518 --> 00:47:41,449 And so I think

that is a space where I hadn't thought about this previously. 620 00:47:41,449 --> 00:47:43,894 I just kind of thought about it as we were speaking about. 621 00:47:43,894 --> 00:47:52,982 think if we want to learn how you create the skill set, how do you learn the skill set and what the discipline of storytelling is as it relates to 622 00:47:53,102 --> 00:47:57,395 Communicating ideas probably advertise a good place to look at. 623 00:47:57,395 --> 00:47:57,905 love that. 624 00:47:57,905 --> 00:47:59,526 And also the art of pitching. 625 00:47:59,526 --> 00:48:03,489 That's definitely that's, that's always a work in progress for me personally. 626 00:48:03,489 --> 00:48:05,020 Shout out to Jade one as well. 627 00:48:05,020 --> 00:48:10,673 She's in this series and is an incredible marketing guru for small businesses. 628 00:48:10,764 --> 00:48:15,397 I'm learning a lot going through her processes at the moment of just, and it's a discipline. 629 00:48:15,397 --> 00:48:18,589 It's an art form of, of a skill to hone and to develop. 630 00:48:18,589 --> 00:48:21,641 So take that one away listeners, practice. 631 00:48:23,294 --> 00:48:26,876 Different meditation practices, switch on your conversion or your diversion thinking. 632 00:48:26,876 --> 00:48:33,498 We have covered so much Joel, I could sit and literally with you for hours, but I won't because you've got an incredible day to go and have. 633 00:48:33,498 --> 00:48:35,819 So before we go, are you ready for our quick fire round? 634 00:48:35,819 --> 00:48:38,374 We'll have to make it super quick because I know we're back to back here. 635 00:48:38,374 --> 00:48:39,621 All right, let's go. 636 00:48:39,621 --> 00:48:48,144 First question for you, what comes to mind when you hear the words impact mindset or what qualities of people I should say come to mind when you hear the words impact mindset? 637 00:48:48,604 --> 00:48:52,146 Yeah, to me it's action orientated. 638 00:48:52,812 --> 00:48:57,705 And that's because I think this is a lot of is big. 639 00:48:57,705 --> 00:49:04,489 And I think one thing that the entire space could use is. 640 00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:06,570 That doesn't come up. 641 00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:07,371 I like that. 642 00:49:07,371 --> 00:49:08,431 like it. 643 00:49:08,712 --> 00:49:09,852 Inclusive impact. 644 00:49:09,852 --> 00:49:11,533 What comes to mind there? 645 00:49:13,174 --> 00:49:19,578 Straight away to me, it was having an understanding and respect for. 646 00:49:19,830 --> 00:49:28,447 all the different types of people that are in the world and creating spaces and particularly in professional spaces, workspaces, where people can bring their whole, their 647 00:49:28,447 --> 00:49:30,338 actual unique selves to work with. 648 00:49:30,338 --> 00:49:36,783 The whole selves you want to save some for outside of work, but I think like an authentic version of yourself to work. 649 00:49:36,783 --> 00:49:45,800 And so that to

me, think inclusive spaces, they have spaces that allow people to be as authentic as they can be or as they need to 650 00:49:46,978 --> 00:49:50,219 I like that little caveat of the professional filter there. 651 00:49:50,219 --> 00:49:54,980 It's a really interesting conversation happening around unmasking in our community. 652 00:49:54,980 --> 00:49:58,203 And then what is the difference between that and professional filtering? 653 00:49:58,203 --> 00:50:00,764 And I think that's a really important conversation to be had. 654 00:50:00,764 --> 00:50:02,024 Thank you for sharing. 655 00:50:02,024 --> 00:50:09,097 What about when it comes to creating inclusive communities, workplaces, schools, what's your hope for the future? 656 00:50:09,097 --> 00:50:10,608 Cause I know you're a dad as well. 657 00:50:10,608 --> 00:50:13,228 What's the world that you see brought to life? 658 00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:16,950 Well, first of all, I like, think like 659 00:50:17,210 --> 00:50:25,583 My hope is that in the future we'll have to stop working so hard to make things diverse. 660 00:50:25,583 --> 00:50:32,736 It's incredibly difficult work and it feels like at the moment in the world that we're which I'm so honored. 661 00:50:32,736 --> 00:50:44,715 Imagine if we're excited to get to a place where we are diverse in our workplaces and in our communities without having to try to be because in diversity is beauty. 662 00:50:44,715 --> 00:50:47,102 I've talked about it all today about 663 00:50:47,202 --> 00:50:58,728 talked about the beauty in an individual person and in their life experiences and where they've come from and the languages they speak and the interests they've got and the music 664 00:50:58,728 --> 00:51:07,714 they've listened to and how those experiences create for individual expressions that are just like magic and can't be copied or replicated. 665 00:51:07,714 --> 00:51:16,334 So imagine, I'm excited for a future where we try something because it is true and it's bringing these communities where 666 00:51:16,334 --> 00:51:23,074 able to be authentic, bring themselves, bring their own creativity, bring their own experiences and life journey. 667 00:51:23,774 --> 00:51:26,234 That's a feature I'm really happy to step into with you. 668 00:51:26,234 --> 00:51:26,924 Thank you Joel. 669 00:51:26,924 --> 00:51:28,674 Let's make that one come alive. 670 00:51:28,674 --> 00:51:32,543 What about the books, podcasts, resources, things you're excited about? 671 00:51:32,543 --> 00:51:34,954 Where are you getting your creative sparks from? 672 00:51:34,954 --> 00:51:43,614 Okay, so at the moment, the last year, I've been really interested in Mona, the museum in Tasmania. 673 00:51:43,614 --> 00:51:45,374 How good is it? 674 00:51:46,126 --> 00:51:47,786 I just love it. 675 00:51:47,786 --> 00:51:50,566 I the actual, first of all, I love the museum. 676 00:51:51,106 --> 00:51:58,826 I think there is no shortage in history of

wealthy people who have built museums. 677 00:51:58,866 --> 00:52:03,386 There's something specific about this one that is just really special. 678 00:52:03,926 --> 00:52:10,826 And I love the story of it and the journey and I love the impact it's had on the community in Tasmania. 679 00:52:11,526 --> 00:52:14,584 And I love the focus on art. 680 00:52:14,584 --> 00:52:16,696 creativity and so on. 681 00:52:16,696 --> 00:52:19,748 I've read David Walsh is the founder. 682 00:52:19,748 --> 00:52:21,019 was just going to ask you that. 683 00:52:21,019 --> 00:52:22,780 It's really interesting, isn't it? 684 00:52:22,780 --> 00:52:25,121 Let's put that down on the must read for our listeners. 685 00:52:25,121 --> 00:52:25,532 Yeah. 686 00:52:25,532 --> 00:52:27,022 What did you love about it? 687 00:52:27,223 --> 00:52:31,135 Well, so it's like Vignette, it's his life in Vignette since the book. 688 00:52:31,135 --> 00:52:34,738 And I would say that every chapter is vegan that I just kind of skipped past. 689 00:52:34,738 --> 00:52:40,742 But I thought like most interesting to me was how widely read that dude is. 690 00:52:40,742 --> 00:52:43,574 he feels like he's had a 691 00:52:43,574 --> 00:52:45,915 lifelong obsession with reading. 692 00:52:46,175 --> 00:52:52,416 so the perspective that he brings to everything is just so varied and interesting. 693 00:52:52,457 --> 00:52:59,599 And so what I got the most out of the book was like every page I pulled, I could go down a rabbit hole. 694 00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:03,130 had my iPad next to me and I would start looking up places. 695 00:53:03,130 --> 00:53:07,761 He might just write it out a place that he visited and his experience visiting it and a place I'd never heard. 696 00:53:07,761 --> 00:53:09,861 So I'd like go down that rabbit hole. 697 00:53:09,861 --> 00:53:11,882 And that also leads me to 698 00:53:12,044 --> 00:53:20,701 The other kind of book I've read recently that I've been inspired by was there was an exhibition at Mona that I went to earlier this year called Name Dropping. 699 00:53:20,701 --> 00:53:27,446 And with that exhibition comes a big art book with a picture of all the curation that they've done. 700 00:53:27,587 --> 00:53:33,411 And then there's all this research and descriptions of the ideas that are behind the curation. 701 00:53:33,411 --> 00:53:37,044 That's fascinating to me because when you go and see an art exhibition, 702 00:53:37,358 --> 00:53:40,638 quite often it's a very surface experience. 703 00:53:40,638 --> 00:53:49,498 You look at objects on the wall, you look at some descriptions, you might be able to join, like connect some of the dots, and then go and buy the book for the exhibition, which 704 00:53:49,498 --> 00:53:56,198 shows how the curators thought about all of the ideas, the research they did, things that are inspired by that to me. 705 00:53:56,198 --> 00:54:05,334 That, I'm always looking for opportunities for rabbit

holes, and that a book like that is full of rabbit holes. 706 00:54:05,486 --> 00:54:08,569 Well, it's also the creative process mapped out, isn't it? 707 00:54:08,569 --> 00:54:11,952 And reflected upon it and reverse engineered. 708 00:54:11,952 --> 00:54:13,572 Yeah, that's beautiful. 709 00:54:13,773 --> 00:54:15,405 And a few things I'll suggest. 710 00:54:15,405 --> 00:54:20,207 So there's a podcast called TasteLand, which I really enjoy. 711 00:54:20,207 --> 00:54:27,484 It's still brand new, but it's, mentioned earlier, there's a media company called Dirt that writes about culture. 712 00:54:27,985 --> 00:54:30,946 And the founder of that, Daisy, has a podcast. 713 00:54:30,946 --> 00:54:33,800 And I find that to be fascinating. 714 00:54:33,998 --> 00:54:37,738 And then the fixed book I'm reading is called Afterworlds. 715 00:54:37,738 --> 00:54:40,658 It's by woman known as Debbie Obetsuki. 716 00:54:40,658 --> 00:54:43,738 I can't describe it, but it's certainly the first thing like no one wants to read. 717 00:54:43,738 --> 00:54:53,378 Essentially, it's like the transition from a human-centric earth to a nature-centric earth where humans leave the earth. 718 00:54:53,378 --> 00:54:57,798 And that decision is not being made by humans, it's being made for them. 719 00:54:58,578 --> 00:55:01,678 it is a transition. 720 00:55:02,348 --> 00:55:08,640 Yeah, it's like, it's really beautiful and challenging and I just so invented the way she's written it. 721 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:15,162 It's written by, the perspective is the, from, call this the perspective. 722 00:55:15,162 --> 00:55:22,643 It's written by what's called a story worker, which is an angel that's been tasked with cataloging the last days of humans on Earth. 723 00:55:23,744 --> 00:55:26,811 yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting. 724 00:55:26,811 --> 00:55:31,686 It's such a book and probably the one of the most inventive things I've read in a little while. 725 00:55:32,590 --> 00:55:37,114 Haste, diversity, creativity, all wrapped up in that list. 726 00:55:37,114 --> 00:55:39,075 I'm excited to dive in. 727 00:55:39,075 --> 00:55:40,376 Podcast, new book. 728 00:55:40,376 --> 00:55:43,199 I'm going to dive into that one, Afterworld, did you say? 729 00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:44,980 That sounds awesome. 730 00:55:44,980 --> 00:55:46,942 If you're a fast reader, you'll breeze through it. 731 00:55:46,942 --> 00:55:52,310 I'm slow reader, very slow It sounds like it's very detailed and very, that there's a lot there. 732 00:55:52,310 --> 00:55:53,107 No? 733 00:55:53,107 --> 00:55:53,437 Yes? 734 00:55:53,437 --> 00:55:55,609 There is, there is, but it's a short book. 735 00:55:55,609 --> 00:55:56,990 It's not very thick. 736 00:55:56,990 --> 00:55:59,973 it could be a weekend read by The Sounds of Things. 737 00:55:59,973 --> 00:56:02,184 Yeah, you could do that. 738 00:56:02,711 --> 00:56:09,587 If you read big books and literature, this is

literature, but it's fairly approachable literature, I would say. 739 00:56:09,587 --> 00:56:10,838 Awesome. 740 00:56:10,838 --> 00:56:11,979 Yeah, but it's beautiful. 741 00:56:11,979 --> 00:56:13,300 It's a really good book. 742 00:56:13,781 --> 00:56:14,501 Thank you, Joel. 743 00:56:14,501 --> 00:56:16,203 I love all of those tips. 744 00:56:16,203 --> 00:56:20,106 The last one for you is what does it mean to live a meaningful life? 745 00:56:21,678 --> 00:56:28,338 To live a meaningful life to me is to create meaning for the world, for other people. 746 00:56:28,338 --> 00:56:32,398 So for me, I find meaning in creating meaning. 747 00:56:33,358 --> 00:56:41,218 It can be in my creative practice, the own things that I build or it can mean supporting other people to create things that are meaningful. 748 00:56:41,938 --> 00:56:51,910 And means, I guess, through that work, adding a richness and texture that other people and that yourself and your family can be. 749 00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:55,651 It's beautiful. 750 00:56:55,651 --> 00:56:56,461 Thank you, Joel. 751 00:56:56,461 --> 00:57:02,746 You're such a generous, creative spirit and it's been beyond a pleasure to have you here in conversation. 752 00:57:02,746 --> 00:57:04,177 I'm so glad we made it happen. 753 00:57:04,177 --> 00:57:06,308 And to our listeners, thank you for joining us. 754 00:57:06,308 --> 00:57:08,980 my gosh, I nearly forgot to ask, where can people find you? 755 00:57:08,980 --> 00:57:09,881 Can they find you? 756 00:57:09,881 --> 00:57:12,102 Are you accessible to the world? 757 00:57:12,222 --> 00:57:12,933 Barely. 758 00:57:12,933 --> 00:57:14,984 I'm barely on social media. 759 00:57:14,984 --> 00:57:19,788 Every now and again, you're hanging on LinkedIn, I've noticed, but not as much these days. 760 00:57:19,788 --> 00:57:21,299 Not so much anymore. 761 00:57:21,299 --> 00:57:23,318 LinkedIn's to me, Mike. 762 00:57:23,318 --> 00:57:35,488 I still like it, but it's a lot of AI stuff now, think, but you can get that on LinkedIn or I'm on Instagram or my email is just Joel at like a .vc if you want to get in touch. 763 00:57:35,628 --> 00:57:45,656 Yeah, if you hit me up on LinkedIn, leave a note because I get, I get requested a lot and I also get to recommend people who are connected to a LinkedIn. 764 00:57:45,656 --> 00:57:48,738 That's a bit tricky. 765 00:57:48,739 --> 00:57:49,329 Yeah. 766 00:57:49,329 --> 00:57:52,686 So I try and only add people that I know or have context on. 767 00:57:52,686 --> 00:57:56,386 So we will know if that's how you've come to the future. 768 00:57:56,386 --> 00:58:03,526 And also shout out to Protostars because I think you've got another round coming up to attract some talent in. 769 00:58:03,526 --> 00:58:05,546 We'll be opening again in a month. 770 00:58:05,546 --> 00:58:12,086 So we've got a cohort that's nearly wrapped up running at the moment and in October we should be opening up. 771 00:58:12,086 --> 00:58:15,486 So we want to give you website and all that kind of stuff. 772 00:58:15,486 --> 00:58:19,846 So give us from Protostars, Blackbird and you'll come across us. 773 00:58:19,852 --> 00:58:20,542 Very cool. 774 00:58:20,542 --> 00:58:26,256 I will put that in the show notes because as we go live on this episode, I think you'll also be going live. 775 00:58:26,256 --> 00:58:27,857 So let's not miss that opportunity. 776 00:58:27,857 --> 00:58:37,344 Listeners, if you've got young people in your life in particular, really with that passion project, this is an opportunity not to be missed, get amongst it and learn about the work 777 00:58:37,344 --> 00:58:39,485 that they're doing at Blackbird. 778 00:58:39,485 --> 00:58:40,196 Very cool. 779 00:58:40,196 --> 00:58:41,576 Thanks Joel. 780 00:58:41,737 --> 00:58:42,367 Thank you, Maz. 781 00:58:42,367 --> 00:58:43,998 I really appreciate it. 782 00:58:44,179 --> 00:58:45,739 You're so welcome. 783 00:58:46,941 --> 00:58:49,186 Thanks for tuning into Classroom 5.0. 784 00:58:49,186 --> 00:58:50,707 our Neuropeak series. 785 00:58:50,707 --> 00:58:55,671 If you enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to check out the list of resources mentioned. 786 00:58:55,671 --> 00:58:57,792 Just click the link in the show notes below. 787 00:58:57,792 --> 00:59:07,039 And hey, if this episode resonated with you, I'd love it if you could share it with a friend, leave a review, and make sure to follow the podcast so that you don't miss what's 788 00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:07,669 coming next. 789 00:59:07,669 --> 00:59:09,760 We've got a ripper of a lineup. 790 00:59:09,941 --> 00:59:16,165 For more on supporting your own neurodiversity journey, you can head on over to marionepower.com.au. 791 00:59:16,165 --> 00:59:17,666 I'd love to hear from you. 792 00:59:17,666 --> 00:59:20,461 Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.