บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 3 - Daniel Moult

00:01:43,240 pizza as well. 38 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,960 A friend of mine went there for the second time this year, two years in a row, and he 39 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:48,480 liked it both times. 40 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,840 Well, that sounds like a ringing endorsement to me. 41 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,880 We definitely need more wholesome mashups of two good things in the world. 42 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,000 Don't you think? 43 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:02,840 Organs and pizzas, harmoniums and flatbreads, pedal pianos and quiche. 44 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,640 Anyway, I've got another email here on the subject of a game of name that organ stop. 45 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:11,840 I played with Richard McVeigh back in episode one a few weeks ago. 46 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,720 You'll remember that we tried to find a stop name for every letter of the alphabet, but 47 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,560 we struggled with the letter A. Anyway, here's an email from someone claiming to be called 48 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:19,560 Chas. 49 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,960 Hi Ben, thought I'd help add to the A's for the organ stop list. 50 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,920 I found myself shouting out loud one of the following stops when you started the list, 51 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:29,960 much to the confusion of the joggers who were passing me at the time. 52 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,480 Can I just interrupt this email and say that I don't endorse going onto the streets and 53 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,680 shouting organ stop names? 54 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,320 You might end up frightening people or getting punched. 55 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:39,960 Anyway, Chas continues. 56 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,160 There is an organ in Studio One of Bratislava Radio in Slovakia. 57 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:45,960 I can't find out who built it. 58 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:54,520 However, there is an Akuta, a four rank mixture stop and also two instances of an Alikvoty, 59 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,960 Alikvoty, also a mixture stop, one of three ranks and one of five in the pedal. 60 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:01,960 Thanks very much for your email, Chas. 61 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,960 I've heard of an Akuta mixture before, but not the other one. 62 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,060 Honestly, I don't know where they come up with the names for these things. 63 00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:13,480 You did pique my interest and I had to look up the Bratislava Radio building. 64 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,080 It's called the Pyramid and it's an enormous upside down, well pyramid really, it's a really 65 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,880 weird design for a concert hall. 66 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,460 Interestingly, I notice it holds the dual accolade of building of the century in its 67 00:03:25,460 --> 00:03:30,600 native Slovakia, but also one of the top 30 ugliest buildings in the world. 68 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,900 Perhaps you can have a look and let me know what you think or just send me anything really. 69 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:37,280 Do get in touch to podcast@chiffchat.com. 70 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,740 Today's special guest, much like last week, is a bit of a talker. 71 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:44,800 That's all I could do to get a word in edgeways to be honest, but he's incredibly knowledgeable, 72 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,600 personable, energetic and I think you'll really enjoy today's episode. 73 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,520 A little reminder that if you like what you hear and you want to support the podcast, 74 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,840 feel free to chuck us a few quid on Tip Jar. 75 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,840 You'll find the link in the description. 76 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,600 I do have a crippling addiction to Pringles, so you can rest safe in the knowledge that 77 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,600 you'll be funding that. 78 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,840 Now, I'm not totally sure, but if you squint your ears really hard, you should just about 79 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,080 be able to make out a podcast. 80 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,240 Oh yeah, there it is over there in the distance. 81 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:11,240 Go on, see if you can catch it. 82 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:12,240 Go on. 83 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:25,240 Hello, you've made it onto the podcasty bit of the podcast and it's really strange. 84 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,600 It suddenly feels like there's a lot more energy in the room. 85 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,440 My guest today has been at the forefront of both performance and teaching in the UK for 86 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:37,440 a number of years and he's currently head of organ at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire. 87 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:42,000 He's starred in several highly praised documentaries about the organ and has been described as 88 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,240 one of the finest organists of our time. 89 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,280 He's possibly the most eccentric man I've ever met and every time I meet him for more 90 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:52,800 than about five minutes, I have to go and have a three hour nap. 91 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,840 Welcome to Chiff Chat, Daniel Moult. 92 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:56,000 Thank you, Ben, for the invite. 93 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,560 Well, thanks for coming in on what's probably one of the coldest days of the year so far. 94 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:00,560 How have you been? 95 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,400 I've been well, thank you. 96 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,320 Yeah, it's a crazy time of year for us all, but surviving. 97 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,260 So as you can see, and for the benefit of the listeners, here we are recording this 98 00:05:09,260 --> 00:05:13,400 in Abbey Road Studios in the same room the Beatles recorded Here Comes the Sun, I think. 99 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,400 No, of course not. 100 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,000 No, we're in my pokey old office in a basement in London. 101 00:05:17,000

--> 00:05:20,760 Let me just say every expense has been spared to make you feel welcome, Dan. 102 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:21,760 I appreciate it. 103 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:22,760 Thanks. 104 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:39,080 I've got a few things to ask you about, but let's start by saying that I've known you 105 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,920 in several different capacities over my life. 106 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:48,120 First of all, as a mentor on various organ courses when I was a teenager, and now later 107 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,520 on in life as a work colleague. 108 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,840 You've been on the pedagogical scene for years and years and that's not wanting to make you 109 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:54,840 feel old or anything. 110 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:55,840 Thank you. 111 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:56,840 Well you're failing there 112 00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:02,480 I'm only saying it because you've surely seen hundreds of kids rise through the ranks over 113 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,840 the years on organ courses and because of your energy and personality, I mean, I dare 114 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:11,160 say a lot of people will have been really inspired to continue their organ studies. 115 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,320 In terms of your energy, how do you do it? 116 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,680 What are you on and can I have some? 117 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,760 I sometimes amaze myself, but I guess like a lot of people who keep themselves busy when 118 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:22,760 I crash, I crash. 119 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,280 I just find myself staring at a wall. 120 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:30,160 I think like a lot of musicians, you find the adrenaline, you find something inside 121 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,840 you that just propelled you through, don't you? 122 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:36,960 I think when you're teaching and particularly when you're enthusing people, whether that's 123 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:42,200 adult non-professionals or young people, there's an expectation that you're really giving heart 124 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:43,200 and soul to it. 125 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,720 Yeah, I guess it can be tiring. 126 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,120 And also, you know, sounds terribly American this, but you get something back. 127 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:54,040 You know, there is a reward of work of people who will benefit from whatever insight you 128 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,840 can give and whatever skill you can give. 129 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:58,320 And for me, that's just an enormous reward. 130 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,320 I find it, you know, sort of gives an altruistic buzz to what I do. 131 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,760 So maybe I'm completely selfish, but... 132 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,880 Not at all. 133 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,920 So on that point, I do some teaching myself now and I think teaching makes you as a teacher 134 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:13,920 a better performer. 135 00:07:13,920

--> 00:07:14,920 Definitely. 136 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,640 Because when a student plays you a piece, you have to connect with their performance, 137 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:24,120 assess it, actively engage with technical matters and musical interpretation and provide 138 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:25,120 feedback, obviously. 139 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,840 And I suppose depending on how well the student has performed the piece, it can strengthen 140 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,240 your own convictions in how you play the piece or... 141 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,080 And it's really nice when this happens, you can think, oh, maybe I'll reconsider how to 142 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,480 approach that passage next time I play this. 143 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:40,480 Absolutely. 144 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,320 And I love being, as I'm sure you do, Ben, I love being challenged by students that you're 145 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,520 teaching something and then suddenly a way that you've seen something that to you seems 146 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,160 the only way. 147 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,840 And it's suddenly challenged by somebody playing it differently, maybe an intelligent question 148 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,120 at the right moment. 149 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:59,760 And suddenly, you know, you have to... 150 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,880 You start to justify some of your own baggage that you've accumulated through the years. 151 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,720 And I think as musicians, we can all hold on to hobby horses, can't we? 152 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:15,960 And the wonderful thing about teaching, particularly perhaps at a more experienced level, is that 153 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,800 it makes you question a lot of those assumptions, makes you question what you do. 154 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,920 There's also a slight feeling of hypocrisy as well, I remember the other day. 155 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,720 Somebody who's played very nicely, but that was just a passage which needed tidied up. 156 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,680 And I said, no, no, no, no, like this. 157 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:35,240 And I went to demonstrate, it's absolute car crash because I've not practiced for two days. 158 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,200 And that's both a humility check. 159 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,760 And it's also this realization that, you know, if you are teaching very talented young people 160 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,480 for the next generation, it's a sort of imperative to keep on top of it yourself, I think. 161 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:53,320 No, I mean, when I worked with Edward Higginbottom, he would ask you to do crazy things with transposing 162 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,040 and score reading and all that kind of stuff. 163 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,280 But he'd never ask you to do something he couldn't do himself. 164 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,400 I think that's really important to bear in mind. 165 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,680

What I thought, I was talking to somebody else about this the other day, interestingly, 166 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:09,480 and we're saying at what point when you are regarded in your profession as a sort of elder 167 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,920 states person, at what point is it OK not to be able to do it yourself and that you 168 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,080 just act as a great guru? 169 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,960 I'm looking forward to that day if I ever arrive there. 170 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:23,080 So people don't turn up at my concert and say, oh, I see. 171 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,440 It's all talk. 172 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,440 So you invited me to teach on an organ course this last summer. 173 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,720 So I feel like I've come full circle now. 174 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,280 I mean, I vividly remember the organ courses I attended as a student. 175 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,600 And it was really interesting being on the other side of the fence. 176 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,600 I really enjoyed it. 177 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,480 There are loads of courses out there, but this particular one was run by the RCO, which 178 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,920 I know you're heavily involved in. 179 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,120 They put a lot of focus on the keyboard skills aspect of being an organist. 180 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,800 So transposition, sight reading, score reading, harmonization. 181 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,260 Why is so much weight given to this aspect? 182 00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:57,740 And what are the practical benefits of being fluent in these skills, which can often seem 183 00:09:57,740 --> 00:09:58,740 a bit abstract? 184 00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:05,160 Yes, and I guess just to come at it from another angle, I mean, the world has changed so much, 185 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:06,160 hasn't it? 186 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,800 Musical world obviously included since those tests were at the core of education. 187 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Things like transposing, I mean, how easy it is now to run something through Sibelius 188 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,880 and get it printed out at a different pitch. 189 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,920 How easy it is to create reductions of things online and so on and so forth. 190 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:27,840 And there are times when I wonder whether the skills are in purely practical terms still 191 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:33,440 absolutely the essentials perhaps that they were even 40, 50 years ago. 192 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,800 But I think there's something more important at heart there, which is about general musicianship. 193 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,760 And I think that even if you have to sweat at those skills, and I did at most of them, 194 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:48,960 the very fact that you have a basic competence to transpose and to read a score in a rehearsal 195 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,680 and to turn a piece of music around very quickly

after less than optimal study time, all those 196 00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:57,760 things the RCO diplomas check, they do make you a better musician. 197 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,680 And I have to say nowadays, I hardly use any of those skills at all. 198 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,920 I can't remember the last time I score read in public. 199 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,920 Yeah, because I don't do very much church work. 200 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,640 I think they are church cathedral based. 201 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,680 Well, I was going to say, I think I use those skills on a daily basis. 202 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:11,680 That's fantastic. 203 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:14,600 And I do think in the profession still they're used a lot. 204 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,440 I say I personally don't. 205 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,320 But even though I might never use some of them again, potentially, I don't begrudge 206 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:21,320 having gone through that. 207 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,320 I'm sure you're glad to. 208 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,320 Because yeah, exactly. 209 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,920 It's just part of you being a holistic musician. 210 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,320 Just like the old adage you say to your organ students, yeah, please will you go and listen 211 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,960 to the Franck Piano Quintet rather than yet another performer playing the Chorales. 212 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,600 We try and make our students broad, to give them broad frames of reference, don't we? 213 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,560 And for me, keyboard skills is another side of that. 214 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,800 And I can't claim I was ever any genius at them. 215 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:44,800 I wasn't. 216 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,200 But I think it's good for all of us to have some level of them to open up our musicianship. 217 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:51,200 Right. 218 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,680 Now, I don't want this conversation to get too boring. 219 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:54,680 I'm boring myself, Ben. 220 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:55,680 So let's move on. 221 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:59,400 But I mean, there may be some people listening to this. 222 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Unlikely. 223 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:01,400 Never know. 224 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:02,400 Your mum? 225 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:03,400 She might tune in. 226 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:09,520 There may be some people listening to this who are in the sixth form. 227 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,840 And seeing as you've seen first-hand the differences between the conservatoire route and maybe 228 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,280 an organ scholarship at university, what sort of experiences can people expect from each? 229 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,680 OK, well, I can obviously speak more confidently with the conservatoire experience. 230 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:27,520 I've been heading up the organ department at Birmingham now for just over six years, 231 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,240 I think it is. 232 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,760 And I think the two are not mutually exclusive. 233 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,360 I remember when I was sort of 17, 18, you had to make a choice. 234 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:38,520 Did you go to conservatoire? 235 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,000 Did you go to university to study as a musician? 236 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,600 And they tended perhaps to attract rather different sorts of musicians. 237 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,520 Whereas I think now that line, I'm glad to say, has become blurred. 238 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,200 So now you'll get people who want to go to university but will come to conservatoire 239 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,640 either in a gap year just to sharpen up on their skills or who will go to conservatoire 240 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,800 after university to also sharpen up on the skills that they've not had a chance to do 241 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,280 in situ in an organ scholarship. 242 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:06,800 So they offer different things. 243 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,520 I think because people study for longer now, I think people tend to do both directions, 244 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,520 don't they? 245 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:18,640 People who come to conservatoire instead of university for an undergraduate degree, I 246 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,040 think also get a very different experience from even 20 or 30 years ago. 247 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,040 I think academically things are a lot sharper. 248 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,760 There was always a bit of a sense that conservatoires were for musicians who didn't want to engage 249 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,480 at all with anything except playing their instrument. 250 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,040 And they've changed a lot. 251 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,360 And you're now, I think it's fair to say, all of the UK conservatoires I'm aware of, 252 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:45,240 you'll get to a different degree, really good grounding in harmony, counterpoint, basic 253 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:51,720 aesthetics, history, and maybe it might not be as extensive as a typical Ivy League university, 254 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,440 but it will be enough there to give a working musician enough power and muscle to be teaching 255 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,560 and performing and thinking and editing with confidence. 256 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:05,480 And I think the professions change because I think when you look at people in top jobs, 257 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,080 there are as many conservatoire people as there are university people. 258 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,440 That's definitely a change, I think, for the better. 259 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,680 So I think people would hopefully leave conservatoire a really well-rounded musician, even if they 260 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:19,880 never stepped foot in the door of the university. 261 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,400 Because

that's our job to do that. 262 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,080 Well you're doing fantastic work at Birmingham. 263 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,720 This is by no means an advert for the place, but it's a cracking department. 264 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,360 You're turning out some brilliant players, you and Nick Wearne. 265 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,600 And of course, it's an exciting time because you've got some new organs being built. 266 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:36,600 Can you tell us? 267 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,000 I can tell you what I can. 268 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,680 So yes, so when we moved to the new buildings about five or six years ago. 269 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,040 Oh, do you still use the Curzon building, the one that looks like a swell box on the 270 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,040 outside? 271 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,040 As in the Curzon library? 272 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,080 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 273 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,360 So all the conservatoire and half of the RCO collection is in Curzon. 274 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:00,840 Yeah, so that's fine. 275 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 276 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,360 The building's still there and it's got a better canteen for the conservatoire as well. 277 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,440 It's not been knocked down for HS2? 278 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:09,440 Not yet. 279 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:14,160 No HS2, the great upset with HS2 is that they've closed my favourite pub for Woodman. 280 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,800 I know, it's just by Curzon Street Station, which is where Mendelssohn, when he visited 281 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,120 Birmingham several times, Mendelssohn loved Birmingham. 282 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,040 He came about four or five times and his train would have pulled into Curzon Street. 283 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,960 So every time I walk past I think, wow, there's that very real link with history. 284 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,400 Yeah, HS2 sort of slowly progressing. 285 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,360 Whatever you think of the politics of it, it will be good for us at the conservatoire 286 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:38,360 because it's less walk. 287 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,280 So I'm looking forward to that. 288 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,680 It'll be about seven minutes less walk, which yeah, when you're as emphatic as I am, that's 289 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:45,680 important. 290 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,640 Oh yeah, sorry, New Organs. 291 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:48,640 I'm terrible at digression. 292 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,200 It's going to be the longest, most boring podcast ever with lots of diversions. 293 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,680 So New Organs, yeah, so when we moved site about five or six years ago, we took with 294 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,960 us a few practice organs that we had, but we'd always been wanting more significant 295 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,600 organs. 296 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,920 And then it was a multi-million pound donation about five years ago, four or five years ago, 297 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,560 that enabled that. 298 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,640 So we've got a new Flentrop for Wolfson Organ, which has been opened last year, just settling 299 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,280 in wonderfully. 300 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:22,120 We're about to have a new William Drake organ, which is coming in next year in the spring 301 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,120 summer. 302 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,480 That's in an English Romantic style. 303 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,080 That's at 1920 stops. 304 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:32,800 So then we've got a wooden Mean Tone organ for Byrd and Gibbons and Frescobaldi and Rossi 305 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,480 and all those sorts of corners of repertoire. 306 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:36,480 Stroking his beard. 307 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,840 Yes, yes, stroking his beard. 308 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,920 We'll be asking you to open it Ben. 309 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,840 That's coming a bit later on in 2024. 310 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,880 We're getting a new Klop practice organ with a 16 foot sub bass backstage in the practice 311 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:49,880 rooms. 312 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,960 And then finally, we're talking about a symphonic organ, which is going in the main hall, which 313 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:55,960 is exciting. 314 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,040 And that's a very slow burn because we've got structural engineers and acousticians 315 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,520 and 51 committees. 316 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:07,360 And that will be electric, electro-pneumatic action divided either side of a stage, mobile 317 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:13,920 console, 50 stops, 32 foot open wood under the stage, I'm hoping, and something sort 318 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:14,920 of symphonic. 319 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:15,920 Yeah. 320 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,240 And yeah, so that's in a nutshell what's happening. 321 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,040 So it's exciting, but busy because all this is on top of the teaching and the usual admin. 322 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,880 One of my questions was going to be picking the style of a new organ being built in a 323 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,640 conservatoire that's going to be taught on for decades to come is a massive responsibility, 324 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,840 but it sounds as if you've got the market sewn up in terms of different styles. 325 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:36,840 That's kind. 326 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,040 I mean, in an ideal world, if space and money were no object, which of course they both 327 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,040 always are, we'd have 20 different organs. 328 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,040 We'd have a Ladegast copy, for Brahms and Reubke 329 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,040 and we'd have 330 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:58,800 a Sauer, we'd have a Cavaille-Coll and so the list would go on right down to

Spanish baroque but it's trying to make 331 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,400 intelligent choices so that we can teach and practice a large cross-section of the repertoire 332 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,280 that's never going to be wholly authentic unless you have twenty-odd organs 333 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,280 but we've given it a lot of thought and I've made sure I've spoken 334 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,840 to people so that my own preferences if you like, aren't the driving factor. 335 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,840 This has to be something which is future-proof and I've taken a lot of advice. 336 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,840 And yeah, you do feel the weight of responsibility. 337 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,840 I would hate to think that in 50 years when I'm in my retirement home, if I make it to then... 338 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:33,840 ...that somebody will be furiously questioning some of my decisions. 339 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:34,840 So I hope it's... 340 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:41,840 Still on the teaching side of things, part of what you do as well is give talks and workshops about good practice technique 341 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,840 and coping with nerves, which I know involves mental preparation and breathing exercises. 342 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,840 Is it breathe in for four and out for six? 343 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,840 Yes, it's four to six. It's in for four, whole for two, out to six. It's a magic pin code there. 344 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,840 There's a phrase you use that always... it's always stuck with me. 345 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:04,840 It takes seven repetitions to learn a pattern correctly, but 30 repetitions to correct a mistake. Is that really true? 346 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,840 Yeah, I know. Somebody picked me up on this the other week actually. 347 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,840 A rather indignant lady. She said, I don't believe it. 348 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,840 And I said, well, I agree with you that to me as a musician, it feels like more than seven repetitions, 349 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,840 particularly if you're doing more demanding music. 350 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:26,840 And can I just say, listeners, do check out Ben's Chiff Chat on the most difficult organ music. 351 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,840 Very, very interesting. I did my preparation last night, you see. Got sucked into that. 352 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,840 And you asked that very interesting question, Ben. What is difficult? Yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it? 353 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,840 One thing I've learned to say as a teacher, I'll try to avoid saying as a teacher, I might add, 354 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,840 is this piece is difficult or this is challenging because you put an expectation there. 355 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:51,840 And I found over the years that we all of us, because we're all wired differently, we find very difficult, different things difficult. 356 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,840 So it's a really... yeah, the use of the language when you teach is so important, so important. 357 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,840 You can just change somebody's experience, for better or worse, by just being a little bit clumsy with your phraseology. 358 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,840 So I think teaching is a huge responsibility. So to come back... anyway, sorry, there's another digression. 359 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:14,840 I hope everyone's still there. Coming back to the seven repetitions, yeah, I think it's more than that in difficult music. 360 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,840 I can believe the 30 repetitions to get rid of a false memory. 361 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,840 And this isn't my statistic, by the way. This was from a neurologist. 362 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:31,840 It's a very interesting book I've got at home, which I don't understand most of, but it was written by a neurologist who was investigating muscle memory 363 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:40,840 from a purely scientific viewpoint and did lots of interesting research with his colleagues and came up with that sort of suggestion from his findings. 364 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:47,840 But it makes the point that I think when we're learning patterns, we try and do everything to be as accurate as possible. 365 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:56,840 And I say that as somebody who has some pretty dire practices sometimes, but I try and just remind myself of that need to be accurate early on. 366 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:03,840 Because I think it just saves so much stress further down the road when you're perfecting things and when you eventually come to put them in public. 367 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:11,840 Very quickly, you studied abroad in the Netherlands with Jacques van Oortmerssen. Did you choose to go there because of him or the organs? 368 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:18,840 It was it was primarily because of Jacques, actually, because I think I'm sure you found this, Ben, in your own career. 369 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,840 There's a very special chemistry sometimes between students and teacher. 370 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:28,840 And sometimes you'll have even just five minutes of somebody and you think this is absolutely the teacher for me. 371 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,840 And sometimes you'll have the exact opposite as well. And it's such an amalgam of things, isn't it? 372 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:40,840 It's personal chemistry. I think there's no denying that. Just that purely animal sense of who we get on and who we don't. 373 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:49,840 It's musical chemistry as well. You know, we all have different musical personalities and some of us gel better with other colleagues whenever for that reason. 374 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:57,840 It's all sorts of things. And I just remember I was coming to the end of my not terribly happy three years as an organ scholar in Oxford. 375 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:03,840 And I had an organ lesson in my last few months. I was Jacques, who was visiting as a John Betts fellow.

376 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,840 And I just knew within five minutes, I thought, you are absolutely the teacher for me. 377 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:14,840 And particularly at that stage where I was, there were just so many Nirvana moments in what he was saying. 378 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,840 And so for me, that was the decision. And to be honest, I think I would have gone regardless of the organs. 379 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:26,840 You know, the organs were a highlight and they taught me a lot. But it was Jacques teaching, which was very special. 380 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:32,840 And I think very different from perhaps a lot of the teaching, which was around at that time in the UK. 381 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:38,840 And I say at that time because I think things have changed and I think teaching has become more emotionally aware. 382 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,840 And I think it's become, to use the buzzword, more student focused. 383 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:54,840 I think maybe when I were a lad, you know, it was a little bit of an old school, you know, get on with it and very little empathy or advice for critical things like good practice, 384 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:01,840 how you practice, anxiety, all these universal things that nearly all musicians have to address. 385 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:09,840 And I found with Jacques, although I'm not saying he had all the answers and he'd be the first to admit that, but he was engaging with things like that. 386 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:17,840 And perhaps you're just in the tone of how he taught. You know, you would just suddenly see things a different way and just, yeah, performing became a different thing as well. 387 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:26,840 He was an inspirational teacher and a very sad loss. He went well before his time back in 2015, I think it was, wasn't it? 388 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,840 Brexit, notwithstanding, would studying abroad be something you recommend to young organists? 389 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:38,840 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I say to some of the undergraduates at Birmingham, right, you've probably had enough of me. 390 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,840 Now it's time to go off and spread your wings and look abroad. 391 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:48,840 I'm delighted if they stay on, obviously, and do a masters with us and what have you and help the attendance figures. 392 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,840 That's not what we're about. We're about the student. And yes, I would strongly encourage that for some of them. 393 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,840 For some of them, it's not the right move. And some of them also just want to go straight into the profession, 394 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:06,840 particularly those who've done big gap year cathedral scholarships might just want to go on and do another cathedral scholarship and get on that circuit quickly. 395 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:13,840 But I do say to them, think, think wisely, because for the sake of one or two years of your life,

which in the grand scheme of things is not very much, 396 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:22,840 actually, that is the time to really absorb lots of ideas, lots of teaching, you know, and you're going to find it difficult if at the age of 30, 35, 397 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,840 you suddenly think I'd really like to have gone and done that. 398 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,840 It's a big, big regret of mine that I never did any study abroad. 399 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Is it really, Ben? 400 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,840 Yeah, because I just thought it's a really stupid reason. I just thought I'll miss home too much. 401 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,840 I think that's a very human response. And but I always think it's never ultimately too late. 402 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:47,840 And I can think of another professional colleague who I have huge immense respect for, who said exactly the same to me last year. 403 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,840 And he said, you know, I really sorry that I missed out on that particular boat. 404 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:58,840 And I said to him, but you can in a way you come from a stronger position when you're older because you can cherry pick what you do. 405 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,840 You can say, right, I'm going to take that repertoire to that person as a sort of professional session. 406 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,840 And I'm going to go and watch that person teach. 407 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,840 And you can create your own curriculum with the benefits of being a bit older and a bit savvier. 408 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,840 I guess it's harder with time and so on. But, you know, maybe professional development should never stop. 409 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,840 I mean, I'm aware that particularly for my teaching, I need to keep abreast of ideas. 410 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,840 I love watching other people's teaching. I will learn things from that. I have to stay completely open to that. 411 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,840 And I think all of us as musicians, we should obviously never stop learning. It's a cliche, but it's so true. 412 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,840 So, you know, good luck to your thoughts on that. 413 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,840 Let's move on to your glittering Hollywood career. 414 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:49,840 Thank you, darling. 415 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:57,840 You've been involved with Will Fraser at Fugue State Films and recorded loads of documentaries, all of which are very interesting, informative and super high quality. 416 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,840 Not just in the production side of things, but obviously your playing too. 417 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:07,840 There's a fantastic one, which I've got a copy of, but not yet watched with Martin Schmeding about Bach and Expression. 418 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:13,840 But I've recently been dipping into the English organ DVD. Was it fun trekking all over the place? 419 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,840 It was fantastic. It was both exhausting and mad. 420 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:30,840 And, you know, waking up in another flea-bit hotel to save money and to go something like, I can't remember the exact thing, Liverpool to York to Newcastle or something all in two and a half days. 421 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:36,840 I'm too old now, Ben. I got a big birthday in a couple of weeks and it ain't 40. 422 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,840 So I'm glad I did it when I did before I was too old and knackered and too grey. 423 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,840 Well, you got a trip to Australia out of it. 424 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:49,840 I got a trip to Oz. We did New Zealand, which I've been to Australia before, but I've not been to New Zealand. 425 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,840 So that was fun. I had a great time. 426 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:59,840 And, oh, yeah, sorry, I have to say for so many highs, I mean, purely, yeah, just the joy of doing it. 427 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,840 But also, you know, just incidental things. I had the best ever goat curry in New York. Goat curry. 428 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,840 I can recommend. Just sensational. But it was so strong. You can say it's for goat. 429 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,840 I'm a bit like Kevin, a bit like Kevin Bowyer. But for me, a good curry you don't really taste the meat. 430 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840 It's just all in the chilli. It was, yeah, I was just hallucinating for days afterwards. 431 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,840 It was a lovely experience and it was a lot of fun. 432 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:27,840 And but I think, yeah, I'm not sure I'd quite have the energy to sort of bring something quite of that scale off again. 433 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,840 You know, it's sort of a younger person's project. 434 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,840 An amazing undertaking. England's often known abroad as the land without music. 435 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:42,840 Organ music is obviously just a subsection of that. But did you find that to be true after your extensive research into the instruments? 436 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,840 No. And what's interesting is I think you find this in other areas culturally as well. 437 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:56,840 Often in England, we're our own worst enemies and that we see our weaknesses, we see our limitations culturally and we almost celebrate them. 438 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:03,840 Whereas where you go, particularly to countries like Germany, Scandinavia, continent and the States and so on. 439 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:09,840 And they love our culture. And I was in Leipzig teaching recently and they all want to play Whitlock. 440 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,840 And they are all, they are all. So, you know, I guess you must get so tired of hearing Whitlock. 441 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,840 You think, well, actually, I've taught Whitlock once in England in the past year. 442 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:28,840 And yet they appreciate the best of our English organ culture in the same way that we'd relish Karg-Elert, that they relish

Whitlock, 443 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:34,840 you know, in the same way that we might enjoy Muffat or Froberger, then they enjoy Purcell and Locke. 444 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,840 So there's a lot more open mindedness, I think, outside England. 445 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,840 But I think also I think the next generation are more open to English repertoire as well. 446 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:53,840 I think there is a change. And I did worry actually after Brexit where there was so many not very pleasant sort of nationalistic aspects to Brexit, 447 00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:01,840 whatever your politics on it are, I was worried that there might be a backlash and people would feel embarrassed if you like to celebrate things of Britain. 448 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,840 But it doesn't seem to have dented it. If anything, it's increased, but in a healthy, non-jingoistic way. 449 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,840 I think that's true of English culture generally, I think. 450 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,840 Did you have a favourite organ on that documentary? It's probably the Brompton Oratory, right? 451 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:22,840 Yes. Yes. Brompton Oratory was head and shoulders. And then after that, oh, gosh, 452 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,840 I could do two or three, I think. Sydney Town Hall is just sensational. 453 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:33,840 And with no disrespect to Andrew Post, who is just a fantastic TonMeister, you do have to be in the room. 454 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,840 It's one of those organs that never quite makes it on CD. Some organs are like that, aren't they? 455 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,840 They're just far better in the building. And it's a whole complex of reasons. 456 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,840 Sydney is one of them. It's just fantastic. And they're really proud of it, the Sydneysiders. It's great. 457 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:56,840 They have a really good Town Hall series where all the shoppers and local people and non-specialists come and hear the organ every week, 458 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:06,840 which is just fantastic. That was a highlight. And after that, possibly Truro Cathedral, which is a bit of a cliché. 459 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,840 Just a fantastic organ. Oh, the Schulze in Armley as well. Yeah, those are probably the top three. 460 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,840 But it's very subjective. And I mean, even the less exciting organs were wonderful. 461 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,840 I mean, there's not a dud on them. I have had one or two slightly barbed emails saying, 462 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,840 why didn't you come to our church stroke university because we have an XYZ? 463 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:34,840 And it's not just about the best organs. It was about trying to tell a story and trying to find organs that hadn't been altered, 464 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,840 that had a big geographical spread as well so that we didn't look too focused on Southern England. 465 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,840 You know, there

were so many aspects that came together that it wasn't just that organ's better as that. 466 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:52,840 It was a whole factor of things. So I apologize for anybody who finds their favourite instrument wasn't there. 467 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,840 Well, it all hangs together really well. I'm always interested in the behind the scenes of these kind of film shoots. 468 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,840 I love the way there has to be a panning shot of you walking into a building or looking out of a window wistfully. 469 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:09,840 Most of the time we're just trying not to wet ourselves with laughter when we do those because it's so studded and it's so artificial. 470 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:16,840 And I guess unless you're a professional actor or presenter and you're doing that sort of thing day in, day out, it just feels terribly artificial. 471 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,840 But it's part of the, as we say, part of the fun of making it. Sometimes when you're doing that stuff, it's just deathly dull. 472 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:28,840 I got very good at walking with a sort of mock serious expression. I can do that very well. 473 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:35,840 You know, when the charades drive on Christmas Day, I might do that in front of the family just for a bit of entertainment, just walking in, you know, locking a door. 474 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,840 Yeah, I'm getting good at that. 475 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,840 We always finish the interview section with a quick fire round. 476 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,840 So, Dan, I'm going to throw a load of questions your way and just tell me the first thing that pops into your head. 477 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,840 Is this career ending stuff, Ben? 478 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,840 Right, here we go. Favourite organ? 479 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,840 Groningen, MartiniKirke. 480 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:12,840 Good choice. 481 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Yeah, just, just in close second, folks, is Alkmaar, Lawrence Kirke. But it doesn't quite make it. There we go, that'll upset someone. 482 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,840 Favourite organ composer? 483 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,840 Ah, JS Bach. Yeah, sorry. 484 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,840 Yeah, no one ever says John Stanley. 485 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,840 I do love John Stanley. Yeah, OK, second. 486 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,840 Favourite performer, alive or dead? 487 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:40,840 Ben Bloor goes without saying. Is anybody narcissistic enough to say themselves? I sincerely hope not. 488 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:47,840 No, that is a joke. Please, no, please, please, that is a heavy irony. So just to make that clear. 489 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:56,840 And probably, OK, joking aside, Piet Kee. on balance, not for everything, but just there's partially nostalgia here. 490 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:02,840 I just remember growing up with some of his Bach recordings in my early teens and just being bowled over by

the musicianship. 491 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:11,840 And, you know, OK, maybe now we don't think it's the last word in stylistic awareness, but just the force of his musical personality really won me over as a player. 492 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840 Yeah, well, the next question is favourite recording. 493 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:25,840 Yeah, that's easier. Yeah. So I got one of his Haarlem recordings, which were issued on Chandos, which had sort of things like the big A minor 543 and other such delights on it. 494 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:32,840 And I just found the combination of music, player, organ, it's just captivating stuff. Yeah. 495 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,840 Right. Here's an interesting one. Composer who never composed any organ music, but you wish they had. 496 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,840 The one that springs to mind there is Stravinsky, who famously hated the organ. 497 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:52,840 And I'm a big Stravinsky fan. I went to the ENO's production of Rake's Progress some years ago. 498 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,840 Well, actually, sometimes for pleasure, put on the Rite of Spring. 499 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,840 Very Freudianly revealing. I love listening to so many Symphony of Psalms, Dumbarton. 500 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,840 You know, it's some of my sort of go to listening music just on the day off. 501 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,840 So, yeah, a great shame for him. He had a really real prejudice against the organ. 502 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:20,840 I wonder whether that was a sort of very opaque, rather unwieldy sort of 1920s organ he was encountering in the States at the time. 503 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,840 I wonder if he'd been, you know, his eyes had been opened by the organ revival movement 504 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,840 and by the next generation of players, whether he might have reconsidered, but he didn't. 505 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,840 We did the Stravinsky Mass setting at New College Oxford and all of the wind parts were played on the organ. 506 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,840 It was a miserable experience. 507 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,840 Did you play that for the vocal reduction? 508 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,840 I can't remember. Yeah, I think we did write something down that got in as many parts as possible, but it's not possible to play at all. 509 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:53,840 No, I have played that before, but a really striking piece, very haunting piece, very cool and just not quite what you expect. 510 00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,840 And that's the other fascinating Stravinsky, just a man of so many different faces in his lifetime and each of them really compelling as well. 511 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,840 I'd love to meet him, but whether he'd like to meet me, I don't know. 512 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,840 It's quite a strong flavour, I think he was. 513 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,840 Right, next question. Cavaille-Coll or Harrison and Harrison? 514 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,840 Cavaille-Coll. 515 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,840 That was quick. Evensong or Mass? 516 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,840 I have to give an answer, don't I? 517 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,840 I don't feel strongly either way, I suppose, because I'm sort of not particularly liturgically minded. 518 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,840 But for me, Mass, just because of the wealth of huge wealth of music for it. 519 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,840 It's not to say there's not some lovely evensong music, but I think the really good evensong music is probably more limited, isn't it? 520 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,840 When you've got the whole of Western civilization. 521 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,840 Batten Fourth. 522 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,840 Oh, yeah, that aside, obviously, Watson and E as well. 523 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:43,840 Hey, don't knock Watson and E. 524 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,840 Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, little reprimand there. 525 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:47,840 I'm not coming back, clearly. 526 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,840 This is my enjoy this listeners. 527 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,840 This is my only podcast visit. 528 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,840 Widor or Vierne? 529 00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:01,840 As a teacher, Vierne, as a player purely because of various considerations Widor. 530 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,840 So I'm sort of bit schizophrenic. 531 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,840 I think there's wonderful pieces of both. 532 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,840 I think at Vierne at his highest is a really, really fine composer. 533 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:18,840 And I think one of the finest pieces of French music going into 20th century is Vierne's piano quintet. 534 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,840 Yeah. And the songs as well. 535 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,840 I just think he's a really high end composer. 536 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,840 I have to say, sadly, rather like Max Reger, I don't think his best stuff's all for the organ. 537 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,840 But I think there's some wonderful stuff for the organ as well. 538 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,840 And Widor, I mean, there's some dross, but there's some mighty fine stuff. 539 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,840 I find Widor is, yeah, it's more audience friendly when you're doing, as is so often the case nowadays, 540 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,840 a sort of accessible town hall star program, which is the bread and butter, I think, 541 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,840 of what organists are increasingly expected to perform in public. 542 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:49,840 Yeah. 543 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,840 Reger or Karg-Elert? 544 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,840 So for my students, Max Reger, unquestionably, because I think he's very important, 545 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,840 to notice a highly significant figure in German organ culture. 546 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:07,840 For me as a performer and listener, Karg-Elert, who I think is a really undersold talent and very interesting talent. 547

00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:14,840 And of course, he and Reger fell out massively in Leipzig, having once been sort of drinking partners. 548 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:20,840 And I wonder whether Reger just saw a new kid on the block with sort of cosmopolitan accents 549 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,840 and rather eccentric clothes and perhaps decided to take against him. 550 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,840 But I think Karg-Elert is due a serious renaissance. 551 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,840 And it's slowly happening in Germany at the moment, I think. 552 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,840 And I wonder whether it will hit the shores in due time. 553 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,840 Howells or Stanford? 554 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,840 Stanford. That was easier. 555 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,840 Bach or Messiaen? 556 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,840 Bach, yeah. 557 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,840 You'd be surprised. I've had some interesting answers to that one so far. 558 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,840 Again, I'm assuming you're asking just sort of purely personally directed, aren't you? 559 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,840 And then sometimes you have like, you know, your own sort of peccadilloes. 560 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:04,840 And then sometimes as a teacher, you sometimes have to do something that is perhaps not entirely to your taste either. 561 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,840 But in terms of listening, performing, thinking, yeah, always Bach, yeah, always. 562 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,840 And then finally, socks or shoes? 563 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,840 I get more excited. Oh, careful what I say. 564 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,840 I get more excited about socks. Can I rephrase that? 565 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:27,840 I'd say that, yeah, socks are really interesting because you'll often find some really wacky socks as you go about, 566 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,840 whereas shoes are functional. 567 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,840 And maybe it's because I'm the male of a species, but I don't really notice or care about them. 568 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,840 OK. I mean, I was actually talking about sort of playing the organ. 569 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:45,840 I thought it was like a random end of podcast. 570 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,840 Like, oh, let's open this up. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. 571 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,840 Actually, I remember coming to you for an organ lesson back when I was about 18 and I played something to you in my socks. 572 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,840 And I remember you said, don't come back to me without shoes. And I didn't. I'm really sorry. 573 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,840 What a git. Yeah. I mean, I know you you you're a sock player, aren't you, Ben? 574 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,840 And you play the organ fantastically. So, you know, let's not sort of create dogma about it. 575 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,840 Personally, I'd always encourage people to wear shoes as a point of technique, partly to protect the feet. 576 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,840 But I think everyone finds their own roots of things, don't they? And it's his means to an end, isn't it? 577 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:30,840 But I'd always encourage shoes. Having said that, when I practice my delicious digital organ at home, it's not really delicious. 578 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,840 I tend to wear socks or slippers just because the pedal action is very light. 579 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,840 And, you know, the neighbours just said, one or two slightly loaded things in the flat below. 580 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,840 So I know that organ shoes don't go down so well. 581 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:53,840 But if you're practicing at 10 p.m. at night. 582 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,840 Let's move on to our regular item, organ heaven and organ hell. 583 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:24,840 Every week, my guest enthuses about a composer or a piece of music, then chucks another piece right under the bus. 584 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:31,840 My job is to try and play devil's advocate and attempt to understand their views or else try and change them to align with my own. 585 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,840 Although that seldom works very well. We're going to start with heaven. 586 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,840 Dan, you're pretty angelic anyway. So what do you hear in your own head when you walk about on a daily basis? 587 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:49,840 I think the soundtrack to my life when I'm being well behaved, at any rate, is the Bach F Major Toccata 540. 588 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:57,840 I think with nearly everyone, there's personal associations of any favourite piece, aren't there? 589 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,840 I remember hearing that as a young boy on a cassette, gosh, showing my age there. 590 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,840 And it just absolutely had me hooked. Just mesmerising everything about it. 591 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,840 Both the imitation at the beginning, the pedal, sailing of the virtuosity. 592 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:20,840 And then just as you sort of feel that you've got into a groove, you completely deflect everything with those flattened bass notes that take you on another ride of a roller coaster. 593 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,840 There was just something I found actually really elating about that. 594 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,840 And it also mystified me as I got older because I started trying to read about it. 595 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:35,840 I think when you feel really emotionally connected to a piece of music, we all want to understand everything about it. 596 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,840 Find out everything about it. And no one actually knows what it's about. 597 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,840 And there's various theories. The Seven Days of Creation is fascinating. 598 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,840 But we just don't know. So it remains an enigma. 599 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,840 I'm also fascinated by the fact that he signs B-A-C-H every time the harmony is diverted. 600 00:41:53,840 -->

00:41:57,840 You know, what personal significance is that within the course of the piece? 601 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,840 Again, there are theories about it. We just don't know. 602 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:07,840 But it just well, for me, I can leave my intellect at the door with the music and just absorb it and just be absolutely thrilled. 603 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,840 I've heard so many different performances of it. 604 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:17,840 I have a very broad view on all sorts of things with it, such as tempo and just pacing and all sorts of things, because I think the music transcends that. 605 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,840 And I think that's it with Bach. You know, it can withstand so many different approaches. 606 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,840 And everybody wants to sort of claim ownership of a certain way of approaching it. 607 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:34,840 I think one of the good things in recent years has become much more open minded and that we can now have a plethora of approaches, which can be completely contradictory. 608 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,840 But as long as they want to serve the music and not the musician performing them, then there's room for lots of them. 609 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:50,840 And I find that with 540 as well. It's so many different takes on it in terms of projection, tempo, you know, all sorts of details which will be approached differently. 610 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,840 Right. Well, immediately you've rendered this item moot as I'm meant to dispute your choice and call it rubbish. 611 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:07,840 But there's no argument with Bach really. I mean, I was talking with a colleague recently and we wondered if the older organists get they tend to play more Bach in recitals just because it takes less time to register than, say, a piece of Howells. 612 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,840 So you can actually spend more time playing the music and less time doing the admin. 613 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,840 It's a really I'm not at that point yet, but I applaud people who do. 614 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:24,840 I suppose so much performing, you know, you feel a sort of moral weight to have a really varied diet. 615 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:33,840 I'm not talking necessarily an eclectic program, but something which you always feel there's an expectation that you're going to be colourful in terms of sounds and in terms of textures. 616 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:41,840 I'm not saying that Bach's not, but I think maybe the times when you can play only Bach in an organ concert are sadly more limited, at least in the UK. 617 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:51,840 It's getting the organ's rhythm as well where you can deliver that one. Well, I suppose it's more it's a more contemporary view of baroque music in general that you play a piece on all one registration. 618 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,840 Do you subscribe to that? Not wholly, no, no. 619 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,840 And I think there's and this is complex. 620 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:04,840 I think there are strong arguments that that might have been a sort of prevailing approach in Bach's own lifetime. 621 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:12,840 But a lot of the the deafness evidence is anecdotal and it's relying on people after Bach's death relaying information as well. 622 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:24,840 I won't bore the listener with the geeky detail, but it's amazing how a lot of our thoughts on that, they're not as concrete as a lot of people shouting about historical performance practice would make you believe. 623 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:31,840 And actually a lot of stuff about things like playing a Bach's Praeludium on one sound. 624 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,840 And it wouldn't stand up in a court of law if you showed the evidence. 625 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,840 And you then of course got playing traditions to bear in mind. 626 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,840 You've got the strength of the musical logic that lots of changes of colour might be distracting. 627 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:57,840 But I think, yeah, I think gone are the days when we can't find creative solutions and thankfully gone are the days when we have to defend it with, you know, a census and a treatise that was pretty thin in the first place. 628 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,840 And people who still do that, but it's not a school of thought I find very creative. 629 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,840 I think it actually sort of stifles people musically as well. 630 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,840 Do you go for the line that we should only play Bach with toes? 631 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:15,840 No, I think again there's evidence that, you know, that it was perhaps a predominantly toes only culture. 632 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,840 But there are so many exceptions even from a Bach student like Kittel. 633 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:26,840 I also think as well that when you're playing an organ, not a Bach's time, we instinctively use heels anyway as part of a technique. 634 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,840 And it can actually get in the way for a lot of players to try and have two different techniques. 635 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:37,840 And if that's at any point hindering your musical communication, then it's putting the pedagogy before the music, isn't it? 636 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:45,840 Yeah, I do like toes only because I think it makes me think like a Gamba player or a Violone player or try to anyway. 637 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,840 So I get a more, you know, a more stylish line that way. 638 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,840 And it's more instinctive on organs of the time, I agree. 639 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:59,840 But I become less and less pedagogical as I get older because it's all means to an end, isn't it? 640 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:07,840 There was an April Fools joke going around a few years ago that some research had been carried out that proved Bach would have been played with all heels. 641 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,840 Who knows?

642 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,840 It's not funny at all, even if you're not an organist. 643 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,840 And even if you are an organist, it's not funny. 644 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:15,840 No, no, no. 645 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:23,840 So yeah, BWV 540, the pedal solo is quite impressive, but I just wonder if it's a bit of a one trick pony. 646 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,840 I confess I don't play it myself, to my great shame. 647 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,840 But if I had to pick gripes with it, I'd say it's a bit overblown. 648 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,840 It certainly does... Yeah, everything's explored, isn't it? 649 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:44,840 I'm sure I could justify other big pieces of Bach which are perhaps more motivically interesting, dare I say, or varied or a little bit tighter structurally. 650 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,840 Structurally, yeah. 651 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,840 So I'm being honest and say I think there's a lot of nostalgia in this as well. 652 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,840 I do think it's a very fine piece of music. 653 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:53,840 It speaks to me. 654 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,840 Yeah, it speaks to me. 655 00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:01,840 And I think, OK, maybe it's not, you know, if we're quibbling in the sort of absolute top few of the sort of Bach organ over it. 656 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,840 But yeah, I don't know. 657 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,840 I can't divorce that from my personal associations. 658 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:07,840 Well, here you go. 659 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:14,840 I have a video about my top 10 Bach organ works where I spent far too long editing my own blooming mouth onto a static picture of Bach. 660 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,840 Very quickly, if you had to choose, what would your top three Bach organ pieces be? 661 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:19,840 Top three? Gosh. 662 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,840 OK, so we've established 540. I'm allowed that right? 663 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,840 Is this as a performer or as a listener or both? 664 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,840 Because they're slightly different, aren't they? 665 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,840 As a performer. 666 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:31,840 Yeah. 667 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,840 The reason I say that is I love performing 532, the D major, and I don't think it's the strongest piece at all. 668 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,840 I mean, even for young Bach, it's, you know, sort of flimsy moments. 669 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,840 The Spiegelfugue is fascinating. 670 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,840 But the Praeludium is, you know, somebody learning a craft a bit, isn't it? 671 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,840 I mean, Bach sometimes in his younger days wasn't the fully formed product. 672 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,840 So I don't think 532 is one of his most distinguished works, but I love it to play. 673 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,840 And audiences like it, but maybe I'm a risk taker. 674 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,840 So as a performer, that would definitely be up in the top three. 675 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:07,840 And again, thinking as a performer, not a listener, something I've not performed for a while is Sei gegrusset. 676 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,840 Never heard the piece, actually. 677 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,840 And again, very fine. 678 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:17,840 It's not, again, the absolutely stunning art of, you know, the E minor 548, is it? 679 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,840 Or even 544 B minor or more mature Leipzig pieces. 680 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:29,840 But perhaps it's the variety of what can be done with the chorale, the beauty of the writing, the succinctness of it. 681 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,840 And again, I always, as a performer, I always have my audiences in mind. 682 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,840 And that's nice because it's digestible chunks, isn't it? 683 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,840 Apart from that penultimate variation, everything's very modest in length. 684 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,840 And you can change colours. 685 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:48,840 So even if you're not playing on an organ, which is brilliant, or that's not brilliant for Bach, you know, there's so many ways you can phone round it. 686 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,840 So it's a bit of a cop-out, isn't it? 687 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,840 But that's purely off the top of my head. 688 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,840 I think they'll be my top three performer ones. 689 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,840 Now, I'm afraid there's been a bit of an administrative error on the part of St Peter and you've ended up in hell. 690 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:16,840 Sorry. 691 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:17,840 I can't, Ben. 692 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,840 This is just, I mean, this is beyond the bounds of believable. 693 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,840 But go on, let's let's run with it for the sake of your podcast. 694 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,840 What's on the boombox down there for you? 695 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:33,840 On St Peter's, on Satan's boombox is Grunenwald. 696 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,840 Grunenwald? OK. 697 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,840 Right, I don't I don't mind admitting I don't know the first thing about Grunenwald. 698 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:45,840 I mean, quite honestly, I thought he was a character from Harry Potter. 699 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,840 Right, I've done, OK. 700 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:48,840 Oh, that's fantastic. 701 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,840 I've done some extensive research. 702 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:56,840 Can I just say that if that wasn't allowed, there's quite a large amount of later Dupre that could equally be playing 24-7. 703 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,840 But let's go with Grunenwald for now. 704 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,840 So I've done some extensive research for all the time my budget allows, which is about seven minutes. 705 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,840 And he was the organist of St Sulpice taking over from Dupre. 706

00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,840 He recorded the complete Bach organ works. 707 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,840 And of course, he's got a very large compositional output, including quite a lot of film music. 708 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,840 So what is it about it? 709 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,840 Listen, I'm sure I don't want to upset anybody. 710 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,840 I'm sure as a musician, he was wonderful. 711 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,840 I'm sure as a lovely man is purely the organ compositions I've heard. 712 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,840 I just want to reclaim that bit of my life. 713 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:33,840 So I will I will be asking St Peter for a refund of the 15 minutes or so over my teaching career. 714 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,840 I've heard Grunenwald. Yeah. 715 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,840 I listened to a few pieces. One was called Adoratio, which was quite pleasant, actually fairly inoffensive. 716 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,840 And then I found the Sonata for organ, which is in three movements clocking in about 20 minutes. 717 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,840 Did you enjoy that as well? Did you? 718 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,840 Heavy going stuff. 719 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,840 I think the problem I had with it was that it was all just a bit nebulous, you know, some interesting ideas in a vacuum for sure. 720 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,840 But on a first listening, I found it really tricky to connect with. 721 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,840 Perhaps I just need to soak it in a bit more. 722 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:08,840 I guess it's you know, it's this line, this particularly sort of French line between improvisation and notation, isn't it? 723 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,840 That's something which might be quite right for the moment. 724 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:20,840 Suddenly, when it gets fleshed out and put down on paper, it's just a little bit patchy in its inspiration. 725 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:26,840 I mean, some people might go so far as to say some people, Ben, might go so far to say something like the Dupre-Symphonie-Passion Exhibit. 726 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,840 It's a bit of that, even though it's probably more through composed than improvised, just sort of patchy inspiration. 727 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,840 Things not developed quite as well as they might do. 728 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:41,840 Maybe I'm just a bit German in my sort of taste and thinking, but I just find this constant nebulous of the clouds of things 729 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,840 where you're just meant to be swept along by the French organ colours. 730 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,840 It's musically a bit weak. 731 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:53,840 I also think with stuff like, and it's not just Grunewald, there's other French composers maybe where only organists really enjoy it 732 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,840 because it's such a specific sound world and reliance so much on the organ colour. 733 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,840 And if other

musicians don't understand or access that, that worries me a little bit. 734 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,840 Getting into the music of cults a bit. 735 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,840 Yes, absolutely. 736 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,840 Perhaps any Grunewald fans in the audience, there must be some, can write in with their suggestions. 737 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,840 Please don't send hate mail. I'm very fragile, really. 738 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,840 He's got a degree in architecture. 739 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,840 Has he really? There we go. Fascinating guy. 740 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,840 Well, it does make you think, like, I like to ask this question to organists. If you weren't an organist, what would you be? 741 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,840 Based on childhood thoughts or just generally? 742 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,840 When I was growing up, I really wanted to be a dentist 743 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:43,840 because I was fascinated by the pink mouthwash they gave you to swirl your mouth out at the end. 744 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,840 So I'm not sure I still want to be a dentist. 745 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,840 But if tomorrow I couldn't do anything musically, if I was forbidden from any of that, 746 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,840 there's nothing else really leaps out. 747 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,840 I've always enjoyed writing, but I don't think I'm good enough to write a novel. 748 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,840 But I do enjoy writing as part of my job. If I'm having to write a report or a proposal, 749 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,840 I do enjoy and I enjoy reading good literature as well. 750 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,840 So maybe it's something I'd develop, but I suspect I wouldn't be very good at it. 751 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,840 And whatever skills I might or may not have as a musician, it might be a bit painful to, you know, 752 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,840 try and be a writer and realise that you're not very good. 753 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,840 But maybe I'd give it a whirl. 754 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,840 What about you, Ben? Am I allowed to turn my back? What would you do? 755 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:31,840 I'd probably just take a brisk walk head on into oncoming traffic. 756 00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:00,840 Now, I've been trawling the darkest corners of the internet in organ forums no sane person should have to visit 757 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,840 for the most inconsequential and trivial of anecdotes I can form into questions for my guest. 758 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:10,840 That's right, it's the weekly lull in the show that no one looks forward to. It's quiz time. 759 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,840 This is basically like a pub quiz, Dan, but there's no beer or sticky floor. 760 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,840 And the questions aren't about Ronaldo or Girls Aloud, but rather about organs. 761 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:22,840 Let's get going. 762 00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,840 Number one, you've done extensive research and

filming about English organs. 763 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,840 I wonder if you know which of the following composers has an organ work as their opus one. 764 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:38,840 A. Kenneth Leighton, B. Herbert Howells or C. Edward Elgar. 765 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,840 That's something that I really feel I should know. 766 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:49,840 And I don't I think it's going to be I'm going to go wild card and say Leighton, even though he wasn't an organist. 767 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:54,840 Great. Well, I've got a bit of a confession to make on this one. 768 00:54:54,840 --> 00:55:01,840 I'll just read you my pre-prepared answer first. Elgar's opus one is a Romance for violin and piano. 769 00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:02,840 Yes. 770 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:08,840 His Vespers Voluntaries are Opus 14 and the Sonata is Opus 28. 771 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:13,840 For Leighton, we have to wait until Opus 41 for the Prelude Scherzo and Passacaglia. 772 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:22,840 So the answer, I thought, was Howells, whose very first published organ work is the Sonata No. 1 in C minor, which not many people play. 773 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,840 No. 774 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,840 You can tell it's young Howells. It's obviously not quite as refined as the later stuff. 775 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,840 Goes without saying, but all the hallmarks are there. 776 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:31,840 So that was Opus one. 777 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:39,840 Well, five minutes before we started recording, I pulled my copy off the shelf and to my great horror, it said Opus two on the front. 778 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,840 So I'm annoyed with myself about that, but I couldn't find a catalogue of his Opus numbers anywhere online. 779 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,840 So let's just say between you, me and the door post. 780 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,840 It is probably. 781 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,840 Good. All right. Well you got it wrong anyway. 782 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:53,840 Yeah, good. 783 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:54,840 No. 784 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:55,840 Two. 785 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:02,840 In one of your films, you play the oldest playable organ in the UK, the 1744 Renatas Harris in St. Botolph's Aldgate. 786 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:12,840 I'm sorry, Ben. It's the 1680 something organ at Adlington Hall, which I only played briefly because it was behaving really badly on the day, sadly. 787 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:19,840 So we're only able to 16. Yeah, they're about. I'm not sure they know the exact date, but it's post restoration anyway. 788 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:24,840 So sorry. Is that the whole quiz? Is the quiz over? Can I go now? 789 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:25,840 Question two. 790 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:33,840 In one of your films, in one of your films. No, right. 791 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:34,840 Question two. 792 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:40,840 In one of your films, you play the oldest playable organ in the UK, the 1684 Adlington Hall

organ. 793 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,840 But what is the oldest playable organ in the world? 794 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:47,840 Oh, it's in Switzerland. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Go on. Yeah, sorry. 795 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:56,840 The Van Covelen organ in Lawrence Kirk in Alkmaar. B, the Basilica of Valere in Zion, Zion, Zion, Switzerland. 796 00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:02,840 C, St. Valentine's Church in Kiedrich. Yeah, it's B. B. Yes, that's correct. Not played. Have you? 797 00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:08,840 No, I haven't. No. There's a video of Diane Bish playing it, though. It's the joy of music. Joy of Diane Bish. 798 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:15,840 It's on top of a hill in a massive fortified castle. It looks like a Bond villain hideout. It's really impressive. 799 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:21,840 The organ's not totally original. It's got 12 pipes which date back to 1435, which is absolutely incredible. 800 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,840 To think this predates Bach and Byrd and Sweelinck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 801 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,840 The Van Covelen organ in Alkmaar is the oldest organ in the Netherlands, dating back to 1511? 802 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:37,840 That is a be exquisite organ. Yeah, do you want to gush about it? Oh, yes, please. I just absolutely adore it. 803 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:43,840 And I remember listening to it the first time I went to Alkmaar, and I think it had just been restored at the time. 804 00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:48,840 And I mean, it just fills the room. And you could almost be forgiven for thinking that you were listening to the main organ. 805 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,840 If it's not the fact it doesn't quite have the extra bit of gravity, that it's just sensational. 806 00:57:53,840 --> 00:58:00,840 I played the bridge organ in Christchurch Spitalfields recently, and I found it really eye opening and instructive for early music, 807 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:07,840 but also quite terrifying because the pedal goes down to G below bottom C and everything just feels like it's in the wrong place. 808 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:14,840 Yes. Anyway, there you go. Question three. I feel like we might need a klaxon for this question because I think honestly, 809 00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,840 it's the nerdiest question I've ever come up with. In the UK, we love a good open diapason. 810 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:23,840 It's the real roast beef and potatoes type of stop that fills you up. You're not worthy of this. 811 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,840 Which of these organs has the most open diapasons of eight foot pitch? 812 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,840 Can I just say I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't know it, because if I do know it, then you know, 813 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,840 what tiny scrap of street cred I might have, just nosedives. 814 00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,840 And if I don't know it, then your listeners are going to be equally appalled. So I'm absolutely damned. Let's go for it. 815 00:58:43,840

--> 00:58:50,840 The question is open diapasons of eight foot pitch only. So if there's any 16 foot open diapason, it doesn't count. 816 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,840 And it's not just on the Great, it's the whole organ. 817 00:58:53,840 --> 00:59:01,840 So A Durham Cathedral, B Liverpool Anglican Cathedral or C St. Paul's Cathedral. 818 00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,840 Now, obviously, you're meant to say Liverpool Cathedral, 819 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,840 of it being the largest or second largest in the UK, whatever it is now. 820 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:16,840 And then you're thinking that St. Paul's Cathedral is probably larger than Durham Cathedral. 821 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:24,840 I'm guessing I don't know Durham well, because St. Paul's has got the dome section, eight foot. 822 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,840 But then that's only one or two opens in the dome. 823 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:35,840 It's fascinating. Actually, Ben, this is an absolute Bobby Dazzler of a question. 824 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,840 I think it's a trap because I have a vague recollection, having only played at Durham once 10 years ago or so, 825 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,840 that there are a lot of diapasons on the Great. 826 00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:50,840 So there's a family of Arthur Harrison diapasons there. And there's a positive division. 827 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:55,840 I think it's going to be the outsider, which is Durham. And I'm going to surprise everyone. 828 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:56,840 I'm going to go for Durham. 829 00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:58,840 Now everyone's switched off. 830 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:03,840 Yeah, that was such a boring answer. I'm so sorry. 831 01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,840 Durham has six, two on the Swell, four on the Great. 832 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,840 Liverpool, seven, one on the Swell, five on the Great, one on Central. 833 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,840 St. Paul's Cathedral is the winner here with eight. 834 01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:16,840 Eight? 835 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,840 Eight, eight foot open diapasons across all the divisions of the organ. 836 01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:25,840 Two on the Great, one on the Swell, one on the South Choir, one on the Solo, 837 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,840 two on the fifth manual and one on the West Section. 838 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,840 Oh, of course. 839 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,840 If it's of interest, the Royal Albert Hall and Sydney Town Hall also have seven each. 840 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:40,840 But St. Paul's wins with eight. So it just begs the question really, how many open diapasons is too many? 841 01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:42,840 Well, the answer is apparently nine. 842 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:48,840 I just wish this podcast could go on forever because it's just hours of family fun, isn't it? 843 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:50,840 Nearly there. 844 01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,840 Question four. You were the organist at Coventry Cathedral for a while. 845 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,840 It's obviously a very historic building. 846 01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:00,840 And of course, it was bombed in the Second World War, which destroyed the Father Willis organ that was in there. 847 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:07,840 A new organ was put in by Harrison & Harrison in 1962, which is a very well respected instrument, 848 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,840 as some might say it toes the line between the classical principles of Ralph Downes 849 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,840 and the more romantic sound of your typical English organ. 850 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,840 The organ was a gift from the people of what nation? 851 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,840 A. Norway 852 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,840 B. Finland 853 01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,840 C. Sweden 854 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,840 The Norwegian government gave money for a chamber organ in there 855 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,840 and the Canadian government gave money towards the Harrison organ. 856 01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:38,840 So it's A, but not as we know it. 857 01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:40,840 Right, I need to do more research. 858 01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:42,840 Apparently it's known as the Norwegian organ. 859 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:48,840 Ah, there's a separate Norwegian organ. I'm so sorry. 860 01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,840 Do you want to rephrase it? 861 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:54,840 But the main organ is very striking, isn't it? 862 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:58,840 I mean, I've got it on a cover of a volume of modern organ music from the 70s. 863 01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,840 Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got a couple of those. 864 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,840 And it all started from an architect's sketch because he didn't quite know what to do. 865 01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,840 So he just put some pipes at the East End. 866 01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,840 And part of the success of the organ is because it's quite shallow, 867 01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:16,840 because the architect Basil Spence was really mean about accommodating space for it 868 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,840 and he very begrudgingly called the space Harrison's 10 feet or something. 869 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:25,840 It was a classic sort of spat between architect and organ builder. 870 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,840 But ironically, I think that was to the organ's advantage 871 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,840 because had it been put in that sort of typical Oxford position, as it were, 872 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,840 in a side aisle somewhere in a great big cavernous chamber 873 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,840 that doesn't project down the main building, 874 01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,840 I don't think it would sound as well as it does by any means. 875 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,840 So actually, ironically, Spence did a favour by just almost having it as an afterthought 876 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,840 at the East End either side. 877 01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:48,840 And finally, question five. 878 01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:53,840 The 19th century

Las Pinas organ in St. Joseph's Church in the Philippines 879 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:58,840 is home to a unique instrument in that its pipes are made out of what material? 880 01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,840 A. Glass. 881 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:02,840 B. Bamboo. 882 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:04,840 Or C. Papier-Maché. 883 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,840 It is B, Ben. 884 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:07,840 Do you know about it? 885 01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,840 Yeah, I've got somebody lent me a book a second ago about it 886 01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:14,840 because I think it was restored by Klais or somebody. 887 01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,840 Yeah, well, incredibly, it dates back to 1824 888 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,840 and was built over six years by Father Diego Cera, 889 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,840 the first Catholic priest in the town. 890 01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,840 It's a place that's unfortunately been hit quite often by earthquakes and things, 891 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,840 but they have an annual international bamboo organ festival. 892 01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:32,840 Wow. Have you been invited yet? 893 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,840 Not yet, but it's a massive draw for the local community and general organ enthusiasts. 894 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,840 What music can you play on it? 895 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,840 I think it's got about 20 stops or so on it, so it's sort of Spanish style from the 1820s. 896 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:49,840 OK, so, and a pedal division, so you could play sort of classical music 897 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:51,840 just before Mendelssohn maybe even. 898 01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:56,840 Yeah, so it's got a very distinctive sound, but no, it's not glass or papier-maché. 899 01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:58,840 That's so tempting. 900 01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:04,840 Well, at the end of that, Dan, you scored some points. 901 01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:06,840 Well done. 902 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,840 I'll just be honest, you could basically have five out of five. 903 01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:28,840 MUSIC 904 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,840 Right, well, that sounds like as good a place as any to wrap up our conversation. 905 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:34,840 I need to go and take that three-hour nap now. 906 01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,840 Before we sign off, Dan, is there anything else you'd like to mention 907 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:39,840 or any products you want to shamelessly shill? 908 01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,840 Any shameless books? I don't think so, no, except, yeah, 909 01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,840 I hope that I have the pleasure of meeting your listeners if I've not done so already. 910 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:50,840 I don't think you want me to do that, no. 911 01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:55,840 Oh, really? I'll take that back, yeah, but no, I just think it's great to have an organ podcast. 912 01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:01,840 I've heard podcasts on all sorts of fascinating things from various obscure sort of Scotch whiskers 913 01:05:01,840

--> 01:05:04,840 who want to be pop artists. 914 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,840 Well, this can join the ranks of niche. 915 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,840 Yeah, niche, but then, you know, niche can become mainstream content. 916 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,840 And I think that's all I hope for the organ, isn't it? 917 01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,840 How does niche become mainstream but without selling the product short? 918 01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,840 It's a lifetime's work, isn't it? 919 01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,840 In which case, this is usually the point where I construct increasingly elaborate ways 920 01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:27,840 to extract a sound bite out of my guests to trumpet the quality of this podcast. 921 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,840 I've not had time to do that this week, so could you just say one of the following for me, please? 922 01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:32,840 Yes. 923 01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:40,840 The Chiff Chat podcast is excellent, acceptable, tedious, totally un-recommendable, delete as appropriate. 924 01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,840 The Chiff Chat podcast is excellent. 925 01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,840 Essential listening. 926 01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,840 Woo! 927 01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:55,840 So do you see what I mean? 928 01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,840 Dan's energy is just so infectious, he ought to come with a health warning. 929 01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,840 I'm very, very grateful to Dan for giving up his time. 930 01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,840 He's a phenomenal teacher, animateur and performer. 931 01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,840 Actually, if you ever get the chance to hear him live, make sure you do. 932 01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:09,840 So that's another podcast. 933 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:10,840 Please do write to me. 934 01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,840 It's very lonely here in this cramped little swell box in which I live. 935 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:18,840 It makes my day when I hear the inbox ping on podcast@chiffchat.com. 936 01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:23,840 What I'd really like to hear from you is your opinion on the weirdest organ piece you've ever come across. 937 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:24,840 Here's mine. 938 01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:30,840 It's a piece by Argentinian-German experimental absurdist composer Mauricio Kagel. 939 01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:36,840 If you don't know, this is the guy who's known for writing pieces that are more like theatre performances, 940 01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:41,840 where the artist has to make certain faces while they play or use unconventional things as instruments, 941 01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,840 like a toilet or an enema, of all things. 942 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,840 You could argue that it blurs the lines of what music can be. 943 01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,840 Or you could also reasonably argue that it's all just a bit silly, really. 944 01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,840 But Kagel did write some more conventional pieces of music for orchestral instruments, 945 01:06:55,840 --> 01:07:00,840 including one for solo organ which is called Rrrrrrrr... 946 01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,840 That's eight R's in a row followed by an ellipsis. 947 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,840 The reason for this is that all eight pieces start with a letter R. 948 01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,840 But I love that that's what he called it. 949 01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:11,840 The music is similarly quirky. 950 01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,040 If you can, try and look out the recording by Dominik Susteck. 951 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:17,840 Granted he performs it on an organ that's got a lot of percussion stops, 952 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,040 but I've never ever heard an organ sound like this. 953 01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:21,840 It's absolutely incredible. 954 01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,840 Special shout out to the movement called Ragtime Waltz, 955 01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:29,640 which sounds like a demented fairground ride that's been possessed by a circus ringleader. 956 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:31,440 So there you go. There's your homework for this week. 957 01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:33,840 Let me know if you can find anything weirder. 958 01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:35,840 Podcast@chiffchat.com. 959 01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:37,240 Donate on TipJar. 960 01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,240 Oh no, I'm being swallowed up by the outro music. 961 01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,240 Alright, see you next week. Bye!