บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Exploring Cookie History and Recipes with Ben Mims, Author of Crumbs

the book are very like sandy kind of dense like shortbread y type cookies but I kind of started drawing the line where things became cakey. [00:05:26] Ben Mims: I found that you know if something is kind of light and fluffy like a cake it kind of has to have the the stereotypical form of a cookie which is to say You know, no more than like two inches in diameter round, kind of like a hockey puck, which it becomes bigger than that. If you get into things that, you know, some people might disagree with me on like things , like French Madeleines, I think of those more as like snack cakes almost than cookies. [00:05:52] Ben Mims: So I did not include those in the book. There's lots of things that are considered cookies. Like a Polish kruszki, I think is what they're [00:06:00] called. And there was a little like bow tie kind of fried pastries or fried little fritter things that people put on a cookie plate, but I'm like, well, it's deep fried, it has yeast. [00:06:09] Ben Mims: It's just like, it's kind of a crispy fritter. So I got really into the definitions of like, yeah. cookie versus pastry, fritter, snack cake, you know, all these kind of, I really fried the small fish when it came to like, picking over the details of what these words mean. And so I kind of came up with that definition. [00:06:29] Ben Mims: And then like, you know, with ingredients, it kind of came down to, does it have not just flour, but it has some kind of like flour type element, whether that's nut based or wheat based. Does it have sugar? Does it have eggs? And then does it have fat? So any, and that can be butter, it can be oil, it can be ghee, anything like that. [00:06:49] Ben Mims: And I found that as long as whatever the cookie that I was thinking about had at least three of the four, then it kind of counted. And so I think everything in the book [00:07:00] has at least three of those elements, if not all four. And so, You know, it kind of came, came a little crazy and kind of maddening to try to figure it out, but I think I came to as much as a close kind of concise definition as I could to what a cookie is to me for the book. [00:07:14] Chris Spear: I did think it was interesting that you included Welsh cakes in there, and I know you talked about it in the book because, um, my wife and I are both big fans of whales, and we've been there twice in the past three years, and I love them, but I don't know that eating them, I would have called them, um, a cookie, uh, but I can kind of see, like, they're kind of borderline in my opinion. [00:07:33] Ben Mims: Yeah, a lot of them came down to, you know, culturally, is this eaten as a cookie or because of their shape and like, yes, they have yeast sometimes, but it's not really used as a raging, a raising agent. There's a few kind of European cookies to where, like. Yeast is included, but it's not used. It's kind of just like a vestige of, you know, a past element of it. [00:07:57] Ben Mims: It's not really used to give rise

to anything. It's just like [00:08:00] there. So that kind of differentiated it from becoming like a doughnut or any kind of like yeast raised bread type thing. And so in the Welsh fakes, , they kind of have. The shape of a cookie and they're eaten also in kind of another loose definition that I came up with is, you know, anything that can be considered a cookie is kind of like a two biter and it has to be, , eaten with your fingers, uh, you know, held in your fingers. [00:08:24] Ben Mims: So, nothing but like a fork and plate. And so how I came up with all the cookies in the book was I kind of did, , exhaustive kind of giant search with, , every country on earth. I made a list and it's like 170 something 80 something, depending on , whose opinion you think of as different countries around the world. [00:08:42] Ben Mims: And then I kind of. , googled all these countries with the word cookies and everything that came up. I put it in a big spreadsheet I think I got close to like 900 different cookies and then I started culling things down and you know, you kind of From that point you see that there are a lot of cookies obviously in like [00:09:00] the us western europe places where Cookies are much more of a cultural thing. [00:09:06] Ben Mims: And so I started narrowing things down from there. And so in other parts of the world, I had to kind of not break my definition, but loosen the parameters for what I would include, because I really wanted all the cookies in the book to be things that had a history of being made at home. [00:09:22] Ben Mims: , so no, like kind of factory made cookies or industrial stuff. So like no Oreos, things like that, but in other parts of the world, let's say like Southeast Asia or like Sub Saharan Africa, like They're not really making cookies in the same way as, like, you know, in Germany. Um, and so, a lot of it came down to, like, who has ovens and who doesn't. [00:09:40] Ben Mims: And, uh, you know, a lot of things come down to colonialism, and the kind of influence of where the cookies came from, uh, before they came to other parts of the world. And so, uh, I kind of kind of had to narrow down and kind of use different definitions of what I thought a cookie would be. So a lot of the ones in like Southeast Asia, [00:10:00] and Africa too, kind of started as, , um, maybe if they weren't made at home, they were made in like bakeries in town. [00:10:09] Ben Mims: So it was kind of homemade. , at a bakery in the cities or different towns where they came from and they became these things that people now make at home, but at least none of them were ever factory made. So it's always like, okay, at least made in the home or baked in like a local bakery type thing. [00:10:25] Ben Mims: And a lot of those in Europe, Western Europe came in the same way as well. So the Welsh cakes, , to when I was trying to flesh out the, the UK section of the book, , a lot of the cookies in the UK that are very popular are like industrial factory made cookies. So like, there's not a huge history of making them at home. [00:10:45] Ben Mims: And so I kind of had to loosen my definition of what these things would be. And I really wanted to include. You know, cookies from every kind of like part of the world. And so, , the Welsh takes two was one that I had made [00:11:00] years prior for food network and had been introduced to. And I was like, Oh, I see. [00:11:03] Ben Mims: And it kind of was the one that made me think about cookies in a different context and not just, you know, in the American way or just the kind of stereotypical like Western European way. So, , I wanted to include those and I think they do fit the bill and I like them a lot. So, oh, and the Welsh cakes. [00:11:19] Ben Mims: They are, I think what helped kind of define it for me was anything like that, which is kind of like, a batter or it's cooked or it's a dough and then it's like kind of it's round sure but then if it's coated in sugar afterwards that's where the sugar element came in and made it feel more like a cookie versus you know a bread or any like a pancake or anything like that and so you know kind of coating them in sugar kind of transformed this kind of like doughy puck into kind of like a cookie like treat so that's um that's my extremely long way of telling you why I included the Welsh griddle cakes in the in the book. [00:11:53] Chris Spear: Well, I mean, I can see that and I do love them. So I'm glad there's a recipe. How did you [00:12:00] figure out or decide on the I mean, I guess for your book, the definitive version, right? Because just something like a chocolate chip cookie in the US, there's probably hundreds of them. So you want to put together the best representation of all these different types of cookies. [00:12:15] Chris Spear: Are you just reading like dozens of recipes and and pulling them together and trying different batches of, say, you know, a chocolate chip cookie or whatever? And then, um, yeah. What was that process like?  [00:12:28] Ben Mims: , it was both really easy and kind of difficult to come up with these kind of like definitive recipes for the book, and I hesitate to use the word definitive to I kind of have been telling. [00:12:38] Ben Mims: people that the book is more just like, here is, the kind of like, uh, prototype blank slate recipe for all these cookies kind of just like where they started. It's almost on purpose to be just starting at one on one basic. [00:12:56] Ben Mims: And if you then want to, once you see [00:13:00] what this cookie was originally, , intended to be like, or to taste like, or have a texture of. If you then want to. , make it your own or try to quote unquote improve it by 2024 standards, then go ahead. But I wanted to give people. Like, here's the starting point. [00:13:16] Ben Mims: And so a lot of the cookies in the book, actually all of them. Yeah, you're right. I literally. Either looked at every single recipe I could find online, um,

mostly in cookbooks, though, because, you know, I'm a firm believer that, you know, research cookbooks are better sources than, you know, anything you can just, like, find online, but it also depended on the cookies because, you know, chocolate chip cookie, for example, yes, there's like millions and millions and millions of recipes. [00:13:43] Ben Mims: So I was like, it's kind of It's kind of not even worth my time to look at every single chocolate chip cookie. It's almost like, okay, where did this thing start from and why? So I made sense in this context to go back to the original, you know, Ruth Wakefield, [00:14:00] Nestle or Toll House, um, chocolate chip cookie, and kind of like almost reintroduce people to here's what this thing started out as, and here's why it came about and. [00:14:10] Ben Mims: Get to know the original because there's so many recipes now where it's just like, you know, we're browning the butter and we're adding gold leafs and we're just like doing all these crazy things and it's like let's get back to what it was and what it originally was was kind of like a Hermit cookie, which was also in the book It's like a brown sugar cookie that used walnuts and raisins kind of like a dry fruit catch all. [00:14:34] Ben Mims: And so You know and I've read every single history about it and you know A little bit of the book is kind of like not making up, but kind of like guessing at what was going on in, um, in Ruth's mind when she came up with the chocolate chip cookie and, you know, the cookie outside of the chocolate. For all intents and purposes looks exactly like these hermit cookies that have been around for a long time. [00:14:57] Ben Mims: So it is, you know, within my [00:15:00] reasonable estimation that she was making these cookies, did not have raisins, and then decided to add some, you know, chopped bars of chocolate that was kind of like a recent, you know, You know, invention in the world at the time, because the original chocolate cookie does have walnuts as well. [00:15:15] Ben Mims: And the dough is exactly like these other hermit cookies. So, um, I kind of wanted and, you know, in the recipe for the original chocolate cookie, she uses. 14 ounces of chopped bar chocolate, whereas now, if you get the package of Nestle, you know, chocolate chip, um, chocolate chips, it's 12 ounces, and so there's like two ounces of chocolate missing. [00:15:36] Ben Mims: She also like dissolves the baking soda in warm water before she adds it. To the dough, which that doesn't happen.  [00:15:42] Chris Spear: I want to stay there for a second because that was something I was going to ask you. I've never seen that in any cookie recipe, let alone any recipe anywhere for cakes or anything. Yeah. I'm always just throwing baking soda in with the flour mix. [00:15:54] Chris Spear: Um, have you seen that as something in your reading of recipes? Not even just [00:16:00] for cookies, but anything because I've never seen any recipe that calls for that. And what's that about?  [00:16:04] Ben Mims: You know, I have because so my, I am from the South. And so I don't know if it's like a Southern like layer cake thing, but like my grandmother, she kept like extensive recipes of all like her Southern like layer cakes and there are lots of, um, layer cakes that I never found in cookies before now, but I always found it in like cake recipes where people would dissolve baking soda in warm water. [00:16:28] Ben Mims: I never actually really looked into like why people do that. I assume it's just because. You know, a lot of times when you have something that has too much like kind of baking soda, baking powder, it can kind of you have that metallic taste to it. So I assume that maybe it was because they felt like they needed to dissolve this, you know, the baking soda in water to help it disperse better. [00:16:48] Ben Mims: And I have found that cakes that are made with this kind of dissolved baking soda, they kind of. They flatten out better and they kind of rise more evenly. So I think maybe that's what [00:17:00] that was about was just to kind of disperse the baking soda better because, you know, it needs to react with moisture. [00:17:05] Ben Mims: So if it's in water already and then gets mixed in, it's kind of more evenly, uh, yeah, dispersed in the, in the dough. So I think that's probably where that came from, I assume is just this habit of. Dissolving baking soda in in water and then somewhere along the way, we decided, you know, we can just add it straight to the flower. [00:17:24] Ben Mims: We don't need to dissolve in water. That's an extra step. But I thought that was such a fun, like, kind of unique little detail that needed to be added in. And, you know, then people could decide whether that's important for them to leave in or not. But yeah, it's something that's just like, It's kind of like, uh, a relic from the past and the way people used to make things that for me is super interesting. [00:17:46] Ben Mims: And that's the kind of things I wanted to focus on more than here's a new flavor or here's a whatever. I want to be like, you know, what was happening at the end, you know, in 1930s that, um, in the culture of making cookies and [00:18:00] cakes and things that these kind of details that made it into these cookies. [00:18:03] Ben Mims: So I find stuff like that super fascinating.  [00:18:06] Chris Spear: Yeah, I do too, which is why it caught my eye, you know, looking at a book like this, I wouldn't even necessarily go to a chocolate chip cookie recipe because, you know, it's one that I know really well. So I was looking at the different ones, but I did look and it jumped out at me. [00:18:19] Chris Spear: I was like, Oh, that's really interesting because I like that stuff to picking up the little details and trying to, you know, figure out what's going on there. Um, so, boom. You're obviously digging into the history of these cookies. Was there any that you found

interesting, like a story behind the cookie that you didn't know, or that you just like really loved learning as you were going through this process? [00:18:44] Ben Mims: That's a great question. You know, there were lots of cookies where, you know, that I had, you know, never even heard of myself. And then I kind of delved into their history. And I was like, Oh, this is, you know, how wild. But there's two cookies in the book that are named for [00:19:00] presidents of their respective countries. [00:19:02] Ben Mims: One is in Iceland. The other one I'm forgetting right at the moment. But it was, I think, Iceland because it was their first female president. And so they may be, you know, and these cookies were A favorite of hers, so they kind of, whatever the name of the cookie was before then. They just changed it to kind of be her last name and kind of, um, and that's what it ended up being in the book. [00:19:23] Ben Mims: And so I found that was like super fascinating how things like that kind of become part of the culture. Um, and even in more like recent times, I think that was, you know, after 1900, um, there were lots of cookies that, you know, my, uh, I had, you know, some, and some, uh, lots of conversations with my publisher about, you know, because Kind of highlighted a lot of, you know, a colonial past in this world, of course, of, you know, Spain and Portugal and, uh, everywhere in Europe, kind of taking their, you know, food culture around the world during colonial times. [00:19:58] Ben Mims: Um, there are lots [00:20:00] of cookies that kind of have maybe less than lovely, uh, names and associations with them. And so we had to kind of talk about, like, you know, these are the names and these kind of colloquial terms that people use back then. And like. You know, they're either seen as, you know, from, you know, the best best outcome is that they are kind of slightly off color to now they're like offensive. [00:20:25] Ben Mims: And so a lot of them have been changed thankfully over the years, but some kind of remain. And so I was like, kind of, we discussed a lot about, like, just the history and like, should we address these things? Should we not? Like, what's the important parts to keep in and let people know? Like. You know, this is, you know, yes, it's about cookies, but it's also about the history of the world. [00:20:45] Ben Mims: And it's about, you know, how things happened at that time. So there are lots of interesting stories behind cookies like that, that were just like, wow, even cookies have, you know, a dark past sometimes, but in these things that, you know, we think of is just all happy and sugar [00:21:00] and, you know, butter, but they can be dark as well. [00:21:02] Ben Mims: Sometimes I think a huge part of the book that I kind of took joy in uncovering were the real. Reasons that some cookies have names that they do, you know, I love, I love, love, love a good old folk tale, but I also get really frustrated when we spend, you know, decades of our lives trying to figure out how did a snickerdoodle have that name? [00:21:27] Ben Mims: And it's like people just coming up with like really kind of asinine reasons and stories and kind of making up urban legends, which are all fun to talk about. But I'm like, I actually really care what. The real reason was and so with snickerdoodles, you know, I did like a lot of research into German immigrants at the time coming over and like what was happening when these cookies kind of came about. [00:21:49] Ben Mims: And there was the snack and noodle, which is like basically a cinnamon roll that came over from Germany back in, you know, I think the late 1800s. And so to me, I was like, [00:22:00] okay, clearly, The snickerdoodle cookie comes from this. So let me figure out what happened and where kind of where I got lost in translation along the way. [00:22:08] Ben Mims: And so there were lots of these kind of instances at that time where cinnamon and these kind of different flavors were being used into everything. So it's kind of like not a new ingredient, of course, but just like a fashion, a trendy ingredient to be used. And so, um, to me, it kind of showed that, okay, Anything, you know, this, this new, uh, food, this cinnamon roll type thing called shnecker noodle that's in the U S it's like it is today. [00:22:35] Ben Mims: Any kind of new thing comes over, people start, uh, riffing on it and they kind of start making everything. Uh, kind of knew that they're making with it kind of, uh, revert back to that old name. Um, and so I can see someone saying like, oh, I'm going to make, you know, cinnamon sugar, uh, let's say cake, you know, balls in the 1800s. [00:22:56] Ben Mims: Um, and I'm going to call it, you know, shnecken noodle or something. And so the [00:23:00] name kind of just gets repeated and filtered down over the decades and in centuries until it just kind of becomes something a little bit easier to say for English speaking Americans. And so that to me kind of showed where this cookie came from and, um, you know, why it has that weird name that we think of as coming from somewhere else, but it's really just an easier way to say a really hard German word. [00:23:22] Ben Mims: Um, you know, so that was, and there were lots of those like that, where it was just the names of the cookies, I think just started out, especially in America as. It's kind of more difficult to pronounce European words that this, um, you know, people wanted to say them easier here. So they kind of got watered down to the became these kind of. [00:23:41] Ben Mims: fantastical sounding terms that really have, uh, they don't have any urban legends, but we like to make them up for them. So that was really fun to kind of uncover and get to the get to the truth on.  [00:23:52] Chris Spear: Yeah, I've seen in your book you have, you know, some of them have like the, I guess, American type name and then the original underneath or

something. [00:23:59] Chris Spear: [00:24:00] Yeah. So are you someone who tries to find like used bookstores and just go through shelves and pull random or obscure books to kind of find these recipes? You know, if you're not using. the internet as much as cookbooks. How challenging was it to find like original, traditional, authentic cookbooks from some of these more, um, I guess harder to find countries? [00:24:22] Chris Spear: Like, I don't know if I could find like a Estonian cookbook or something like that.  [00:24:27] Ben Mims: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't see the surprise because I would, you know, I also did like a search for, you know, every country with the word cookbook afterward to see like what else existed out there. Um, I honestly, you know, from, you know, from working in the food industry for the past, you know, 15 or 15 years, I had amassed. [00:24:47] Ben Mims: A good collection of cookbooks that thank God I had held on to for so long that had a lot of this, um, information in them. Um, but I also, you know, I bought a lot of new books during the research of this. I also went to the library here [00:25:00] in LA to do a lot of research and then I found out kind of, like, after 2 months of going to the library that you can. [00:25:07] Ben Mims: Uh, check out and search for all of their books online, even with your library card. So I was like, Oh, I could just like do this from my computer online. So that was a huge thing. And so I was able to kind of like at least do all the hard part of searching for all the books and then go and then like sit through and read them. [00:25:25] Ben Mims: And it's also one of those things where yes, you can do a lot of research online. And I did for a lot of places that a lot of countries that maybe don't have a history of. Are you know, recording their recipes? Um, many cook countries around the world have like one cookbook that was like, had all their recipes in them. [00:25:42] Ben Mims: And so a lot, everything else really does exist online. And a lot of it is like people from those countries who have like moved to like the U S or the UK and they started blogs and things like that. And so it really was, um, you know, relying on so many different types of sources to get this [00:26:00] information, but there's a lot to be said for. [00:26:03] Ben Mims: Going to a library, I know this makes me sound like an old fuddy duddy, but going to a library, checking out a book, and just kind of, because I found so many things by just reading through books I probably would not have picked up if I was just like trying to search for them online, because you spend time just like looking and looking at different spines of the books, and you're like, oh, this might have something in it, and then you open it up and it does. [00:26:24] Ben Mims: And so, Being able to just, like, have the time to just spend in a library and, like, kind of, uh, let your eye kind of wander, let the information kind of take you different places. I uncovered a lot of just, um, information that I don't think I would have found if I'd just been searching online, even within the, you know, library archives for, you know, You know, uh, specific key terms and things like that. [00:26:47] Ben Mims: So a lot of books that I found online, which is very good, uh, which I didn't realize was such a good resource. There's so many, you know, older books from like back in the 1500s and [00:27:00] things that are available online that people have scanned for like Google books and things. So I was able to kind of search through a lot of books that aren't even in libraries that are only available online to kind of read through those. [00:27:11] Ben Mims: And my God, I spent a lot of time with Google translate. Um,  [00:27:15] Chris Spear: Yeah, I was gonna ask that because I imagine I imagine a lot of those books are not in English.  [00:27:21] Ben Mims: Yes. Yes. So many books were not in English and it was so, um, I think by the end of it, I was actually really good at, um, at reading German just from having to like, or at least the German words for like flour and butter and sugar and all that kind of stuff. [00:27:34] Ben Mims: And so, um, yeah, I spent a lot of time with my Google Translate, a phone held up to like the computer screen or a book and kind of like taking snapshots and um, seeing ingredients and that was really fascinating because I think outside of modern cookbook times, which I will say, you know, from maybe the 60s, 70s on every recipe [00:28:00] for a lot of these older cookies was kind of the same. [00:28:03] Ben Mims: Like every single recipe for, let's say, a German cookie would always be the exact same amount of flour, the exact same amount of butter and sugar. And it was just like, Maybe the flavorings would vary slightly, but like there was not really innovations when it came to like changing the texture. Like people found that this is the thing that worked. [00:28:22] Ben Mims: Let's stick with it. And so I made it quite easy to kind of come up with the quote unquote definitive or the kind of base recipes for these books because not much had changed until You Kind of our more recent 50 years ago modern times where, um, we started playing around with different textures that were good to try to make them better and then, you know, either succeeded or failed. [00:28:43] Ben Mims: And so, um, yeah, a lot of them were like, these are just like classic forms of how these things work. Stick with it. And here's the thing where it came from. So, um, that actually made it quite easy to find a lot of those old recipes and be kind of, um, be, uh, kind of, uh, [00:29:00] feel good about the fact that, okay, these are. [00:29:03] Ben Mims: These have been here. These have obviously been around for centuries because they work in this way. This is how, you know, I know this would be the recipe to include in the book.  [00:29:10] Chris Spear: Yeah, it's kind of nice that way.

I had a customer I did a dinner for a couple weeks ago, and instead of my normal desserts, he wanted me to recreate his grandmother's. [00:29:19] Chris Spear: They're not cookies, but they're peanut butter balls. And it's like, you know, peanut butter, crispies and coated in chocolate. And he sent me a photo of her recipe card, and I couldn't read everything. And I just went online and googled it. And it's literally the same recipe that I Like 400 people have used. [00:29:36] Chris Spear: And I was just like, okay, like, I just want, cause you know, the, the chef and me, I was like, I want to make sure that this is going to work. Cause I've never made this before. And it was good to just, this is like a very basic recipe that like everyone knows how to make. The only change I did is I. I just couldn't bring myself to buying margarine and I had to use butter. [00:29:52] Chris Spear: I was like, uh, no, we're not doing that. But yeah, some of those things, I mean, you know, it's like all the recipes I grew up with, my mom [00:30:00] made, you know, most of them just came off of a box of something or out of the newspaper that everyone around the country used, uh, you had talked about, you know, like. [00:30:08] Chris Spear: Things coming over from other places and, you know, one of the things that I, um, in the book I saw you have a recipe for Benny wafers and it calls for sesame. I totally get why you do it But there is a little difference between like true Benny Sesame and have you have you made these with like say an Anson Mills like true Benny as opposed to like a sesame seed that You could find in every grocery store  [00:30:33] Ben Mims: You know what? [00:30:33] Ben Mims: I haven't. I know that Anson Mills has those, and I have not, um, I've not made these cookies with that. You know, I also, I wanted to, at least with all the cookies in the book, especially in instances like that, I wanted them to also be, um, you know, as makeable by everyone as possible. So, like, even if, you know, you, because this book is also, Yes, I develop it. [00:30:57] Ben Mims: I'm an American, but it's sold internationally. It's going to be kind of like [00:31:00] all over the world. And so I wanted everyone, uh, to be able to make it no matter where they are. Um, and so I did like in one of these instances and also sesame seeds were just, you know, being used in so much of the book as well in like a lot of North Africa, the Mediterranean cookies as well, of course. [00:31:16] Ben Mims: And so I kind of wanted the cookies to be made by most people as possible. So The bendy wafers, um, or, you know, are slightly different than using sesame seeds, but, you know, growing up to, we also use sesame seeds a lot. And I know a lot of people who just use sesame seeds because it was the easiest thing. [00:31:33] Ben Mims: And so I figured, you know, this is something where. Uh, the actual ingredient is so hard to find outside of this specific region that comes from. And so

this will be, um, a fine substitution or thing to use because also people have been using sesame seeds. But I agree with you.  [00:31:50] Chris Spear: Um, I have relatives down in South Carolina and probably the first, you know, 20 years of going down there. [00:31:56] Chris Spear: I mean, everyone's using sesame seeds, right? Like when you buy those bags at the [00:32:00] market, they're all sesame seeds. I was just curious because I've started, um, you know, picking up more stuff from Anson mills and having it sent to my house. And I thought that's something that, uh, I've never really worked with and I was going to pick some up and, um, I don't know how it changes if at all in the recipe. [00:32:14] Chris Spear: Um, but I think I might give that a try.  [00:32:17] Ben Mims: Yeah. I bet there are subtle changes that are actually, you know, would make take, take the cookie from, you know, An 8. 5 to a 10 for sure. And it's one of those things where. There are a lot of details like that that I really wanted to keep in, you know, the book and kind of tell those stories, but at the end of the day, I was like, okay, this is a cookie book. [00:32:35] Ben Mims: It's not a, you know, it's not a Benny history or it's not a, you know, cardamom history. It's like, I got to keep it on on theme here. So, but I think, you know, another time and place or if there was, You know, last recipe, if it was only like an American cookies book where I kind of stretched out the whole American chapter to an entire book length, then that would have given room to kind of dig in more to specific ingredients and also [00:33:00] I get into like, you know, oatmeal raisin cookies and like, you know, the chocolate for the chocolate chip cookie and kind of like dig into the sugar for the sugar cookies and like how these things kind of change. [00:33:10] Ben Mims: So there was, you know, I did that a few times in the book. Each chapter has like an essay. Okay. where it's kind of like breaking out a kind of cultural through line that I wanted to explore within each section or kind of part of the book. And that was my way to kind of get in a little more context and a little more history into the cookies I couldn't fit into each headnote. [00:33:32] Ben Mims: Um, but yeah, in a different book, I would definitely delve into more of those individual ingredient histories far more.  [00:33:38] Chris Spear: I just find this so fascinating. There's so many interesting things in there. There was a cookie with mayonnaise in it, which at first I was like, I was like, that sounds kind of gross, but then you just think about it. [00:33:47] Chris Spear: You're like, that makes sense. It's eggs and oil. Like, have you seen, have you seen that in multiple cookies or was it just the, I think I only saw it in one of the cookies in the cookbook. Is that something you've encountered, [00:34:00] um, anywhere else with the, the cookie process?  [00:34:04] Ben Mims: You know, again, I'm going to take it

back to, uh, Southern Layer Cakes because, um, I did, growing up, um, I have seen everything from mayonnaise to, um, there's an old recipe for a Campbell's, like, tomato soup cake, where you literally pour a can of tomato soup into, like, a chocolate cake, and oddly, it tastes great, that you don't taste the tomato soup at all, because it's just so much sugar, and that kind of savory tomato is kind of like, Masked with cocoa powder, blah, blah, blah. [00:34:31] Ben Mims: But again, not necessarily the same quality as using fresh eggs and oil, but it is a very smart kind of cheat if you don't have those ingredients. And if you only have a, you know, shelf stable resources, like the, I think that cookie came from Estonia or one of the former USSR countries, it's a, you know, if you only have. [00:34:52] Ben Mims: You have no fresh ingredients. Then the mayonnaise is there and that has two for one. So I kind of found that very fascinating.  [00:34:58] Chris Spear: I do too. And I, I hope [00:35:00] that's one of the things that people enjoy about this book. You know, you're a food writer and we're still in that time where people on the internet complain about like, you know, like flute food blogs, like, you know, I don't need your story. [00:35:13] Chris Spear: Just give me the recipe. Right? But I think what makes for me a good cookbook is something that's, you know, That has some story that has some history, a little background. You know, I'm not looking just to get a book with 100 recipes in it with no historical context. I really love that. And I think that's something that stands out about this book, especially if you're a cookie lover. [00:35:33] Chris Spear: But it does give you such a insight into so many of these countries and, you know, what, you know, how these things came about other than just, you know, it's something delicious and sweet to eat.  [00:35:46] Ben Mims: Yeah. And, you know, again, you know, maybe, maybe this is, you know, why I'm not more popular than I, than I should be, but I am much more concerned about the history and the story than I am about just like a new flavor for a new flavor [00:36:00] sake, you know, um, and actually found when I was doing a lot of research for the book. [00:36:05] Ben Mims: There are lots of, you know, these other cookbooks written by other very famous, very well regarded people who they don't really give any history or context into any of the cookies at all. It's more just like they talk about these urban legends a little bit, or it's just all about flavor. So it's kind of just, you know, looking into these histories was kind of. [00:36:30] Ben Mims: An undertaking. And so having to do that, I see how a lot of people are just like, I'm just going to focus on, you know, creating a new texture and a new flavor. And that's what I'm going to write my head note about. That's what I'm going to kind of focus on because figuring out the story behind it is like, It is very, um, it's hard to find. [00:36:48] Ben Mims: You have to do a lot of research, as I found out, you know, to kind of get to where these things came from or how they came about. And so it's just kind of easier to not focus on it. And so I kind of had to do a lot of the hard work [00:37:00] to kind of figure out those things on my own, because a lot of Text that came before really didn't have an information. [00:37:05] Ben Mims: Um, but that to me is what's, you know, kind of the point to writing a book and writing, uh, and kind of learning about these things. It's kind of get the entire 3 60 history of what's going on and not just focus on the flavor unless. You know, a flavor element is what made it so distinct or kind of what made it so special to begin with. [00:37:28] Ben Mims: And so that to me was a really fascinating thing about finding out all the details and the histories of these cookies. And, you know, like with the blog stuff too, I understand when people are like, Oh, I don't want this history or the story. Just give me the cookie or give me the recipe. I think a lot of times and, you know, I've been the same way where it's like I will when I was, you know, reading a lot of these blogs for these cookie recipes. [00:37:53] Ben Mims: I think a lot of times people who write blogs and stuff like that, you know, obviously they're having to write [00:38:00] a lot, but you know, to get paid online for their stories and things. I think if bloggers, I think if cookbook author didn't give everyone focused on telling maybe better stories and not just kind of, uh, wrote formulaic, okay, here's the thing just to fill time. [00:38:16] Ben Mims: Yes. Keyword stuffing. Then I think people would not have that same outlook on it because I found And a lot of the cookies I came across in certain blogs where, you know, there's no cookbook culture with these certain countries, but this person wrote a blog about this cookie. I read a lot of their stuff and it actually had good information that I needed to know to make sense of why the cookie was like the way it was because I was reading about it. [00:38:37] Ben Mims: And so I think if you had just missed over that, then you'd be like, why is this cookie special? I'm not going to make this. And so sometimes it is worth reading it, but it needs to be information that is pertinent. And I think, you know, they, and they have a service, but I tried to focus on. Okay, what is the information in the book or about each cookie? [00:38:55] Ben Mims: That is the most important to know. And I just focused on that because I understand [00:39:00] that a lot of people just want, you know, new cookie recipes and that's great. But there's also a million booked out there that already provide that information. And so my thing was, if you're someone who Cares about the history if you care about where things came from and you really want to like get into that and I think more people are into it than they think they just have never been presented that

information in this way, then I think that they will be, they'll be excited to learn more about it instead of just thinking of food and cookies as just this kind of thing that, you know, they don't really give much more consideration to than you know what they're putting on what clothes they're wearing. [00:39:33] Ben Mims: And so I kind of want to spark and more interesting dialogue about getting to know the food that we consume every day and where it comes from and why, because it all matters when it comes to why we make it for certain holidays, why we share it with people. And maybe that will kind of, yeah, again, inspire people to kind of make different things, try new things and kind of, Expand their knowledge of what a cookie can be. [00:39:58] Chris Spear: Well, since you mentioned [00:40:00] holidays, I wanted to ask you, I mean, we're in summer, but I feel like holiday season is going to roll up on us. Um, cookie exchanges, everyone does them every year, right? And I feel like I get the same things. We make the same things. What, what would you recommend someone this year, a cookie exchange and they got, you know, one to three different types of cookies. [00:40:21] Chris Spear: What do you think would be really fun and interesting that maybe, um, when you went to a cookie exchange, people would say, wow, I've never had this before. And it was something  [00:40:30] Ben Mims: to  [00:40:30] Chris Spear: any thoughts on that.  [00:40:32] Ben Mims: Great question. Yes. Um, so one of my favorite things about, uh, the book, and I kind of wrote a little essay. [00:40:39] Ben Mims: about it, but I kind of, I wish I had kind of, um, I mean, there's kind of not really a way to talk about it without sounding too granular, but all of the gingerbread type cookies in Eastern and Western Europe, I found super fascinating because they all, yes, they're similar, but they're kind of not like some are [00:41:00] really thin and brittle, some are much thicker. [00:41:02] Ben Mims: And kind of cakier. Some are kind of like pressed into like a stamp mold and some use, you know, crushed spices versus, you know, completely ground ones, but all the different gingerbreads around. Europe, uh, and some that wound up in, let's say in Mexico or South Africa and all these other kind of places, they use slightly different spices and different amounts. [00:41:26] Ben Mims: And so I kind of had this idea to create little, you know, spice bundles that kind of like, you know, here's the finish, the gingerbread spice mix, here's the German one, here's the Estonian one, here's the Icelandic one, kind of like show how different spices and different flavorings. Kind of made their way into this quote unquote gingerbread archetype of cookie. [00:41:50] Ben Mims: And so, um, I think for the holidays, that'd be a really fun thing to do. It would be to either make. All the gingerbread type cookies from, let's say, five to [00:42:00] six different European countries to kind of show

side by side how varying levels of clove or ginger or cinnamon can like impact the flavor and like what the difference is. [00:42:12] Ben Mims: That's something that I probably am going to do myself just because I think it's super fascinating to kind of show everyone literally like put the country like on a piece of paper on a map or something. Of its country and kind of like show how the the texture changes the shape the all the spices and things And then if you don't want to make do all that then, you know my favorite cookie one of my favorite cookies in the book is the um The Dutch, Belgian, Northern German speculoos cookies, of course, which everyone kind of knows, but not really, and they are used by pressing the dough into kind of like a wooden mold, um, and then you kind of like bang the mold out to get the cookies out, and people have seen them maybe, they have like a Dutch windmill pattern sometimes, or they have like a Santa Claus pattern, or different like kind of pagan animals and folklore and stuff like that, [00:43:00] and so I think those are really cool, just because of, You know, not so many cookies. [00:43:05] Ben Mims: At least in America ever these days, I can think of off the top of my head, use a mold like that anymore. Like we use cookie cutters, of course, but not in these kind of like old wooden, uh, molds that you can find online for cheap, um, or you can get like, you know, vintage ones for, you know, hundreds of dollars that have been passed around through the centuries. [00:43:23] Ben Mims: So I think kind of making more. sculpted, molded, crafted cookies, uh, to me is really fun rather than just, you know, the usual brown ball with a Hershey kiss on the top. So, um, yeah, it just kind of expands. It's a little more work, but also it's more fun and you can like decorate them more and you can just, um, also those cookies like that, like they do. [00:43:44] Ben Mims: The mold and all the stuff, they do all the hard work for you. So you don't have to shape anything. You just kind of press it in and bang out and you have a super intricate, beautiful cookie that you can show off. And people think you, you know, hand carved it and it's like, no, you just use the mold. So I think that's easier [00:44:00] than having to, you know, hand shape and twist into candy cane shapes, all these other different things that we use for Christmas. [00:44:06] Ben Mims: So kind of getting back to the pagan. Christmas time pagan holiday molds and shapes. I think I love that would be fun to do.  [00:44:14] Chris Spear: My all time favorite is a molasses cookie. It's something my mom used to make. And, um, for me, it's the texture, like getting the right texture of like, I like it a little, I don't like, uh, I mean, I like a ginger snap, but I want it to be like a little chewy. [00:44:27] Chris Spear: Um, and my, I've been working on a signature cookie and what I'm kind of doing now is I do a molasses, but I put masa in there and I use, uh, like there's masa harina in there. And it took a lot of noodling with to find the texture, right? So it wasn't too dense. And also this really meticulous, like my wife's like, just cook them like a normal person, but it's like, no, it's like six and a half minutes. [00:44:49] Chris Spear: And then rotate it and do another six and a half. And then they have to sit for exactly one minute on the pan and then they have to go on a rack. But I've been playing with that a lot. And I finally got it to a place. [00:45:00] Uh, I'm from new England. So, you know, for me, we love all the. The molasses and stuff. And I don't know if you've ever had Indian pudding. [00:45:06] Chris Spear: Do you know Indian pudding?  [00:45:07] Ben Mims: Oh yes. Oh yes. So that's  [00:45:09] Chris Spear: like my favorite. So this cookie was kind of inspired by that, like taking my love of that. But you know, that's a pudding that has corn meal and I'm like, okay, well, corn meal sounds cool, but I'm also a big Mexican cooking and, and working that in there. [00:45:21] Chris Spear: And I'd never seen an instance where, you know, there was like masa in a molasses type cookie. I've, I've seen, I think at least one of your recipes, I know somewhere I saw that there was masa harina in it. Uh, Maserino, whatever. Um, but yeah, I, I'd never seen it in like a molasses type cookie before. So that's kind of my signature. [00:45:39] Chris Spear: So that'll probably be on my holiday plate this year, but I love that you have then, uh, showcasing other molasses, gingerbread type cookies with that.  [00:45:48] Ben Mims: Oh yeah. And the, um, the kind of section of. Molasses cookies, you know, which kind of stand from the gingerbread cookies of like Europe and kind of went to the U. [00:45:59] Ben Mims: [00:46:00] K. And in the U. S. I found was super fascinating as well to see how this byproduct of sugar making that is similar to but not at all like all the sugar syrups of Europe kind of came into a cookie and then kind of created a completely different cookie that has a completely different texture and makes it chewy and makes it kind of the bitterness of molasses. [00:46:19] Ben Mims: Is It's completely different than like, you know, the caramel syrups of Scandinavia and like Western Europe, which just provide this kind of like kind of caramely sweetness, whereas molasses is super bitter and kind of plays out the spice is even better and gives it that shoe that the European cookies don't have. [00:46:35] Ben Mims: And so, yeah, there's the first probably 4 or 5 cookies in the North America chapter are. The kind of Canadian and like New England molasses cookies. Um, it kind of shows the different ways you can play with texture and molasses to kind of make something, yeah, like a ginger snap or a chewy ginger cookie, or, you know, kind of, um, the Joe Frogger cookie, which is like, uh, from New England [00:47:00] is kind of just like a big molasses pancake almost, it kind of became cookie

over time. [00:47:05] Ben Mims: And so there's a cookie in Spain that uses molasses as well, which I found so fascinating to find, uh, I think it's in, um, one of the islands off the coast of Spain where they actually have sugar cane, uh, was growing there and they kind of made like actual real molasses that we use in America there. And so that was a very unique thing for European cookies. [00:47:30] Ben Mims: And so to kind of get into all the different ways in which molasses as an ingredient has kind of changed the cookies, uh, around the world, I thought was super fascinating because I did a kind of mini essay about. sugar syrups, quote unquote, and how they started as these kind of like caramelized things in Europe and then moved to molasses in the Americas. [00:47:50] Ben Mims: And that just kind of shows how, you know, one idea for a cookie when used for something, a different ingredient that looks similar, should act the same, actually [00:48:00] completely changed, um, the cookie and kind of made a completely new genre and style that, you know, has stuck around to this day. So that was, um, that was super fascinating. [00:48:09] Ben Mims: And molasses is kind of. The secret ingredient kind of change, change agent of so many cookies in the past, like 200 years.  [00:48:17] Chris Spear: I love that stuff, but I would, I think my kids wish I would stop like putting molasses and desserts. They're like, just a chocolate chip cookie. This is like, I don't know. It's like, as I get into middle age, it's like, is this like an old man? [00:48:29] Chris Spear: Like, am I turning into my dad? Like my dad, my old New England or like molasses, cookies, Indian pudding, grape nut pudding. I'm like, Oh, all that stuff my dad liked. I actually really love now, but is that like old man dessert? I don't know.  [00:48:43] Ben Mims: I think it's just less sweet. And I think as we get older, you know, we want less sugar. [00:48:46] Ben Mims: So that works. Yeah.  [00:48:48] Chris Spear: Oh, I have a lot of listeners who really are interested in recipe development and cookbook type stuff. Do you have any advice for someone who maybe wants to go into that line of work, like doing professional [00:49:00] recipe development and maybe even writing a cookbook?  [00:49:04] Ben Mims: Wow. Sure. I think my main takeaway, which I always tell people, and I kind of see the light dim from their eyes is that you're not going to make any money. [00:49:14] Ben Mims: So it's kind of like a passion project. I would say most cookbooks. Yeah. Like it's something that you do because you really just have an idea and you want that information out there and you, you love doing it. And it's like, yeah, it's something you do on the side. It's never going to make it be a money making endeavor. [00:49:31] Ben Mims: Um, so I think as long as you are approaching it from like, This is my passion. I have to get this work out no matter what. Then I think. You know, like with any book, it's just like, here's an idea that I have. Here's a story I have to tell. Here is my perspective that I just like, I need for it to be out in the world because I think it will add to the culture, add to the conversation. [00:49:51] Ben Mims: I think if that is where you're starting from, then you're good. And I would say pursue it. And I think also, if you come from that mindset, then doing [00:50:00] all the work on the front end that you need to do, like writing a proposal and kind of like. Finding, uh, sending it out to people just to see if anyone wants to publish the book and do that whole thing. [00:50:11] Ben Mims: That part won't be so hard because you will be coming from this perspective of, I believe in this, I need to get it out, I'm going to do whatever it takes to do it. Yeah, and then I think just having a unique thing to say. I always tell people the more niche a idea is, the better. Because, So much in our world has been done already. [00:50:33] Ben Mims: So it's like, what are you adding to the conversation? So I think that, you know, for me. Particularly a cookbook. Let's say that is all recipes that you can take with you to go on a hike or something like, or that you can take with you to eat on a boat, like there's something that's like super like, wow, this is such a specific instance, such a specific. [00:50:55] Ben Mims: Set of parameters to get through that to me is more interesting than [00:51:00] like, here's 100 just like weeknight recipes that I like, or here's 100 chicken recipes, like, I think, try to come up with something novel, something new, and something super specific that only you could write, I think, if it's an idea that you think already exists out there that anybody could do it, then it's not the one to do, but like, You know, if you wanted to write a book all about molasses puddings around the world or molasses puddings in, in, in New England, that to me is super fascinating. [00:51:27] Ben Mims: I want to read that.  [00:51:28] Chris Spear: Great. I'm going to start working on that one. Uh, when we go.  [00:51:31] Ben Mims: Please do. Please do. I want, I'll buy the first copy.  [00:51:35] Chris Spear: Well, I think that's great advice. And, uh, yeah, to our listeners, it's like, there's, there's no money in podcasting either, you know, feel free to Venmo me some money if you guys are, uh, loving the show, but yeah, I, you know, I, I, um, as someone who has a podcast, I get a lot of people who want to come on the show and talk about books and I've seen a lot of books and you're just like, wow, it's just like, you have a recipe for a Caesar salad and you have a recipe for a, uh, you know, an omelet or whatever. [00:51:58] Chris Spear: It's like. I don't know. I [00:52:00] feel like I've seen this recipe 80 times. Like, I mean, you know, if you're a famous YouTuber or something, no shade, but kind of a little, um, like, like, what's the point? Like why, like, if you're just trying to, you know, grow your brand

fine, I guess. But there's so many of those books out there that just, um, they don't seem interesting to me. [00:52:20] Ben Mims: Yes, exactly. And I think I think that's where that kind of that those recipes work is if you are someone famous or someone well known who you just want to keep giving people another book to buy, then a Caesar salad is great. But otherwise, it's like that story has been told. Let's come up with something new and interesting to kind of push things forward. [00:52:39] Ben Mims: And I think if you're, um, if you really are passionate about books. You know that then come up with, you know, book that is 100 Caesar salads and getting into all the different ways you can make things better, which to me will be at least more interesting than just, you know, another one under a celebrity cookbook, you know, so yeah, well, even the idea and you'll be good. [00:52:58] Chris Spear: Yeah, cheers to that. [00:53:00] Well, I always put everything in the show notes or links to the book and your social media and everything. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you want to leave our listeners with before we get out of here today?  [00:53:11] Ben Mims: I think the thing that I would want to leave listeners with is just, you know, to be curious. [00:53:15] Ben Mims: That's always been my kind of driving force in all the work I do and all the books I write is just being curious. Like if you come across a detail or something and you're just like, why is this being used? Why is this, why is the batter for this cookie mixed this way? Why use that amount of, you know, sugar versus this? [00:53:36] Ben Mims: Why is this shaped this way? Just always be curious because I think it's always something to come from that, whether it is. A history of shaping things a certain way, uh, how an ingredient was made and like for me, I find all those kind of pun intended kind of like granular details to be really fascinating. [00:53:55] Ben Mims: It can always kind of tell you something more that you didn't know. And so that's what I hope to do [00:54:00] with this book. It's going to give people that outlet to be like. Oh, yeah, this little thing that I think doesn't really matter at all. I've never even thought about. There actually is some history here. [00:54:08] Ben Mims: There actually is like a point to it. So yeah, just be more curious. And I hope that that's the crumbs kind of like inspire people to be more curious about all the food that you even just, even if it's just starting at cookies and things like that.  [00:54:22] Chris Spear: Well, again, I, having seen the book, I, I think you've accomplished that and I hope people love it. [00:54:27] Chris Spear: It's, it's a really great read besides just being a collection of cookie recipes. Well, thanks for coming on the show. And to all of our listeners, as always, this has been Chris with Chefs Without Restaurants. Thanks so much for listening and have a great week. You're still here? The podcast's over! If you are indeed still here, thanks for taking the time to listen to the show. [00:54:49] Chris Spear: I'd love to direct you to one place, and that's chefswithoutrestaurants. org. From there, you'll be able to join our email newsletter, get connected in our free Facebook group, and join our personal chef, [00:55:00] catering, and food truck database so I can help get you more job leads. And you'll also find a link to our sponsor page, where you'll find products and services I love. [00:55:08] Chris Spear: You pay nothing additional to use these links, but I may get a small commission, which helps keep the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast and organization running. You might even get a discount for using some of these links. As always, you can reach out to me on Instagram at chefswithoutrestaurants or send me an email at chefswithoutrestaurants at gmail. [00:55:25] Chris Spear: com. Thanks so much.