บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Meaning-Making, Pattern-Seeking & Storytelling Creatures w/ Bob Pondillo | EP23

beginning. Hold on. No, I started in radio when I was fourteen. Little boy, little boy. Didn't not fully developed prefrontal lobes yet, and I decided I was gonna I I wanted to be a radio announcer, by gosh, because I you know, I used to listen to them I grew up in Ohio, in Youngstown, Ohio, which is near Cleveland. So we picked up all the Cleveland stations, the big stations, big 50,000 watt stations in Cleveland. And all these guys that were on the air were like, you know, funny and fun and goofy. And this was the beginning of top 40 radio too. So so Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: you know the music was all, you know, the the British invasion, the Beatles are coming, all that stuff. So I had to be I wanted to be Mr. Show business in in in the radio. But I was in Youngstown, Ohio. And a small, you know, a smaller burg. It's not wasn't Cleveland, that's for sure. But there was a new station that just opened up in Niles, Ohio. And I was 14. So I had my grandma would come pick me up at at high school. I was a freshman or sophomore, I can't remember. And she'd pick me up and it took 15 minutes to get to Niles. So she'd drop me off at the radio station and then I don't know hang out, have a smoke, whatever whatever she did, and pick me up around, I don't know, six o'clock or something. And they you know, they were new and and small, five a five hundred watt radio station is what it was. And it was a daytimer. It went off at night. So so Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: it's five hundred watts and so your hairdryer has more power than this. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow. Bob: radio I think your hair dry is around fifteen hundred what. But but so so so I I went there and I learned how to be on the radio. but d they were a middle of the road radio station, which means they couldn't commit to, you know, any kind of rock and roll music. And that's what I wanted to do. Not that I it wasn't like rock that I loved it so much, I just wanted to be on the radio. And that's the kind of music I was listening to. You know, Beatles and Beach Boys and all that, all that stuff from the 60s and 70s. Anyway, so I did that for a while and learned how to suck on radio and I was pretty, pretty, pretty shitty because I was a kid. I didn't know what I was doing. But I learned and thank God no one was listening because it was a little station and it was new. And but from there I got a a job in Youngstown at a huge radio station. Well, huge for Youngstown, 5000 watt station at 570 on the dial, low, low on the dial, which means a five thousand watt signal could reach, you know, a lot of people. So Darrel-Lynne Thieson: So Bob: but and some guy there, Larry Conti was his name, a very nice, kind man, said, All right, kid, yeah, you got something, you know. Come on over. So he didn't have a cigar or anything. But Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: anyway, so I I that's what I did. I I was a radio announcer there for all through high school and through college, you know, during high s

vacations and stuff. So I would go back and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Well Bob: play records and tell the time. And it was there I realized that any monkey could do this. No, I I don't mean that in the mean way. Especially to people that are still in radio. But back then Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: it was a different it was a different story. It was you know, you played the records and told the time and then did some jokes occasionally, but it was nothing Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: like nothing like those funny people in Cleveland that I that I loved. Anyway, however I did learn that I don't I didn't like the stress. There was so much stress in radio, so much proof of performance and you know you have to I mean you have to perform. Every day is a performance. It doesn't matter how great you were yesterday. It's like being an athlete. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Bob: Not to look at me. I'm not certainly an athlete, but but you know it's like that. Sure you cut the pass last week, but now what are Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: you doing for me this way? So that type of pressure is pretty constant and I'm a it's hard to believe, but I'm I'm an introvert. I mean I can pl Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: I can do show business. I can play like, you know, for an hour, like I'm look at me, I'm I'm a funny guy. But not really. I like it quiet, I like to read, I like to think, I like to p you know ponder, those kind of things. And but so I went to school and got a degree in government and in broadcasting. Yeah, a double degree, how about that? And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: then no and and then because I really like eating. I l I enjoy food. I had to make a living somehow. And the only skill I had was talking on the radio at the time. So so that's what I did and I stayed in the broadcasting business for years and years and years. In fact when I was what when I was in I w I was sleeping one night and I had a a woman in my dream, I had a dream, and a woman came up to me, floated up to me, and in my voice, she she was pushing a baby carriage. All right. This is great, this is loaded with al allegory. So she's pushing a baby carriage. And she says to me in my voice, Be somebody else before you're 30. How do you like that? Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow. Bob: And I thought and that, and I was forty-one at the time. geez. So I missed it. But but w when I heard that I thought that is great. I gotta write that down. I can use that in some Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: story I wanna tell eventually. And eventually I did. I used it in a in a film, a short movie called The New True Charlie Wu. The new true Charlie Woo. And yeah, and I started writing it. you know, we were on vacation or something, and I kept thinking about be somebody else before you're 30. And what does that mean? And how could I tie it to what does success mean? And, you know, because guys in particular, w women, we've got much to learn from women, believe me. Women Darrel-Lynne Thieson:

No. Bob: think of jobs as it's a job, you know, it's fine. I like it. It's fine. It's good. I can do something else though if I wanted to. And guys go, that's me. That's my that's who I am. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Bob: I I am this person. And what a crazy thought, you know, as if we're like little statues or something, you know, like and we never change, we always have to stay the same. So so anyway, I I I I I th that's what I wanted the movie to be about. How what does it mean and you know, how we are pressured or you know, we w we We become stressful over what other people think we are, right? Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Give me a Bob: I mean, it's always like well he's a he's a you know, and and and you think, well then that's that's me, and it's that's Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: part of me, maybe, but it's certainly not me, not all of me. It does, it does, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, it becomes your identity, yeah. Bob: on the nose, man. That's it. So yeah, so so that's the kind of stuff I wanted to tell in the movie. And as I started writing it, it came out as a musical. Because my Darrel-Lynne Thieson: wow. Bob: wife tells me my wife tells me, I have a I have a tendency to preach, she says. And she's right. So and I don't want to be preachy in these movies. I want to make it fun and you know, entertain ultimately that's the that's the bottom line, you know, is it entertaining? And in so doing, if you make it fun and light and f you know, people will if audiences will take it in if you're st if you start sermonizing it's not gonna work very well. So anyway, it's it's Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right, right. Bob: yeah, so it's starts coming out as a musical and I don't I'm not musical. I mean, I don't know. I I don't know how to write music. I'm you don't ever want me to sing, believe me. In high school my my my my college choir or my high school teacher would say, Pondello, you're flat. You're flat. You're flat, you know. So Mrs. K Darrel-Lynne Thieson: And now you're right and then you write a musical. Bob: Yeah, well, yeah, but I don't I but fortunately I had help. I don't know what I was doing. I heard the song When the Saints Go Marching In in my head and I r I wrote a po I wrote poems is what I did to that song. And then eventually Darrel-Lynne Thieson: cool. Bob: I gave it to a a wonderful guy in Nashville who's a who is a songwriter, country music songs and e anything you want, you know, kind of guy. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: V brilliant, brilliant guy. Kelly is his name. anyway, So he was the one that then crafted it into various songs. And and it c it came out pretty good. It came out good. We won a lot of awards and it's still up online, by the way, if you ever want to watch it. The Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: new true Charlie Woo. And if you put that Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, I'm gonna link it. I'm gonna have to find it and link it in the show notes. Yeah, Bob: great. All right. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: we'll definitely put that in there. I'm wondering what inspired Bob: Yeah. No. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: what the how the song When the Saints go Marching In inspired that. How does that thread in? Bob: Okay, well, here's the thing. there's two things happening in in Charlie Woo. He's a he's a young guy who works for some accounting firm and he doesn't like it. He doesn't want to work for the accounting firm. and and so the accounting firm's songs are barbershop quartets. So when they Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: when the people at the accounting firm sing They sing in like, you know, sweet out of a line, you know, that kind of stuff. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: And w which is like the whitest, the whitest bread stuff you could possibly find, right? And then when Charlie's soul starts singing to him, it's it's a gospel choir. And it's like, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: you know, it's that exciting gospel kind of choir music. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: so anyway, so that that's Why I used Windless Saints go much, and I I have no clue. I 'cause I needed a song. I needed something to make a beat with, you know, like that that Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: that that that that that that that kind of stuff. So so anyway, like Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Love it. Bob: I said, Casey Kelly was Kelly he was great. He he was able to really turn it into something. And and that's what that that's what making movies is, collaboration. You know, you try to get the best people to Darrel-Lynne Thieson: For sure. Bob: help you that you could find. So so and and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yes. Bob: We got some good we got in fact David Lawrence, who's one of the stars of the of the Charlie Wu show, is a Hollywood actor who's a friend of Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: mine. And in fact, he's visiting me this week. He's taking a shower he's taking a shower back there. And and he Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Tell him to put a towel on. No. Bob: That's right. In fact, he said that. I hope you don't mind if I come out and walk out naked. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: What's Bob: we'd mind. We'd mind. But anyway, he he's Yeah, I I knew him since he was in high school. He's a just a great Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: guy. And now he's a film actor and you'd probably he was on Heroes, the the NBC show called Heroes. Remember that? Yeah. It was a Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, I've heard of it. Yeah. I didn't watch it but I I've heard of it, yeah. Bob: he it was on in the early two thousands, and he Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: was he wasn't a hero. He was a villain. Yeah, he was Darrel-Lynne Thieson: who was it? Okay. Bob: one of the villains. The puppet master is what he was. Anyway, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: interesting. Bob: s save the cheerleader, save the world. Anyway. So so that's that that's the story of well it's a a story about ho Charlie Woo. It was it was a f it was a lot of fun, the best the best time I had. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: And was the dream the dream was the

you just wanted to incorporate the dream into that or what or was that what like Bob: Yes. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: generated the idea for the the entire thing? Bob: Right, exactly. And what and what happened was we got another person, Leslie Ellis, who's a who used to she sang in Cats on Broadway and stuff, and she was down in Nashville at the time and wonderful, wonderful woman. and she she joined us as the as the avatar, as the dream woman, as Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: Eudaimonia, the you know, the the the Greeks had this notion of eudaimonia or eudainomia Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: or whatever, but it's eudaimonia. Anyway, so she is that creature, you know, that person, that thing inside you that wants you to live your best life, you know. So Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: so she's the one that shows up and floats toward Charlie and says, Be somebody else before you're thirty. And And that's and that's how we incorporate that. And the whole thing is a dream. It's a dream. So Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: w yeah, and and we did that for a reason. I I thought maybe we should go and shoot it, you know, like over at a you know, by by water somewhere, like by the ocean. But in Nashville doesn't have an ocean, sadly. So we but they they have lakes and we were going to shoot it in such a way so that we would, you know, chop the the the trees and, you know, little islands out in the lake so that it would look like the ocean. Because wa wa Darrel-Lynne Thieson: That fast water, yeah. Bob: yeah, vast w exactly. So because water is a symbol of the unconscious, you know. Anyway. yeah, yeah, that's yeah right. Yeah, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Okay. Lots of symbolism. Bob: really. So but when I told the Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I love it. Bob: idea well thanks, but when I told the idea to the to the camera guys and and all that they said, huh. So you wanna shoot during the day and you wanna shoot. Okay, here's the problem. The sun. The sun moves constantly, and we're gonna have a lot of shadows because you know, you have to shoot this way, then you have to break down and shoot that way, and you know, like over shoulders Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: and all. And the and the sun will keep changing and the shadows will keep changing. And only if you really wanna do this, Dr. Bob, you know, we'll do it that way. But and I said, What other ways can we do it? And they said, well, we could get a proscenium stage, which is one of these giant, I mean, set what would you call it stages. It's just a large it's like a warehouse, and inside the warehouse is a is a backdrop that is how shall I how can I explain it? It's a it's a prosenium, it's a white background that goes to the floor and then continues. So there's no Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: sp you there is no you you can't see like a a there's no reference point yeah no horizons no Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Like a horizon line or like Yeah, okay. Bob: reference points where are you? You don't know where you are and and so Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: why not? And it's lit that way all the time. So it's like this big white space that has no bottom. even though people are walking, you know, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: on the bottom and stuff. So that's where we shot it and that was the dream s set. And and that's where all mu much of the action happens. But so that's what we did and it Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Well. Bob: came out great. So I'm happy with it. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay, well we'll definitely need a link to this if it is online because I'd love to watch it and I think the listeners should be able to get to check this out as well. So yeah, very much looking forward to seeing that. Yeah. Bob: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you so much. Yeah. It's it's an older piece now because you know I've I've I'm no longer teaching college, but yeah, but we did a lot of movies like we did about Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Bob: six six of Yeah. So there you go. W what else would you like to talk about? Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Amazing. So let's go back because we you were talking about your journey from radio and then you had the dream. And then did Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: you did you what point did you go into teaching? Bob: Well, I was yeah, I I did I I I worked radio for a long time and w I was in Orlando, Florida working at a radio station down there and we had an opportunity a f a bunch of friends and I, thanks to a guy by the name of Dick Ferguson, who bankrolled us. He said, I like the funny stuff you're doing on your radio show there in Orlando. could you do that for all my stations up in Connecticut? So we said, yeah, we could do that. So whether we thought we could or not, we always say yes, and you'll figure it out later. And that's what happened to us. So we went up to Connecticut, me, Andy Goodman, Dale Reeves, David Lawrence, the guy that was in the show, Michelle George. that was the core group when we started. And we we became eventually the American Comedy Network. That's what it was called. It was a yeah, it was. And I was creative director of that group. And so we we produced short form comedy for radio stations around the country, you know, fake commercials and interactive bits like comedy minus one kind of stuff, you know, where Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: we would we would make Well, for example, back then Reagan was president, so you know, we'd have a c we'd have a bit called a interactive and we would provide a script and the and the tape it was on tape then, not n not satellite delivered or anything, you know, or CDs or anything. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Bob: Anyway, we'd provide the tape and the and the script and it would go phone ring and the disc jockey would say, Hold on, let me get that and hello and then Reagan would come on. I can't do Reagan, but you know, hello. and then they would and then there would be a pause, and then that pause is where the disc jockey would speak.

So so how are you, Mr. President? Well, I'm very good, you know, and and then that would be the bit. Well, that wouldn't be the bit, that would bit would the bit would be funny, or we hope it would be funny. And it was it was like Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Wow. Bob: it was like Saturday Night Live. Every week we had to produce five or six bits. Only ours were funny, of course. And and and get to the radio stations. So and that's what we did. We had t it was English sp only Ecl English speaking. So we were in l we were in Great Britain, we were in Australia, you know, all the English speaking countries and the United States, something like three hundred stations were on the on the line with us and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: y you never knew it. You never knew it was us. We we was we were the silent partners in the background, you know. But that's what we did. So Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. So you talked about you talked about the pressure previo earlier about being in radio. Did that was did that come with its own pressure? Because I don't imagine that's easy work Bob: It sure did. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: having to keep the material so fresh and like constant, right? Bob: Yeah, yeah. No, that I'm still in the radio business when I when I met ACN. And but it was it was a lot of fun. We we sh sure enjoyed it and I didn't have to get up at, you know, two thirty in the morning to do a morning program at six, which is good. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Mm. Bob: that that that's a killer. Those are terrible hours. I don't know how those people on like the today show do it, you know. I I look at them and think, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: My God, I hope they get naps or something 'cause it really messes with you. You know, it messes with your head Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and your mind and stuff, so Anyway, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: but yes, there was a lot of stress in that too. And then eventually I moved to I I took a job at WNBC, sixty-six WNBC in New York. and that's a big fifty thousand watt radio station, and I was at Thirty Rockefeller Plaza. I was at Thirty Rock. Yeah, it wasn't I mean, and it's like Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow. Yeah, like I c I don't know, I've never been there, but I can I can appreciate the reference. So that's big stuff. Bob: You'd love it. You'd love it. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: Yeah, it is. It's it's well, NBC. It's where NBC it's where American broadcasting was network broadcasting began in nineteen twenty-six. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow, okay. Bob: And I was I was there. I was so amazed. I c I I still am when I think about it. I had a bathroom key even and was just amazing. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and you know, NBC Radio was on two on on the second floor and then Saturday Night Live was on eight. David Letterman, this was back when David Letterman was still with NBC, he was on six. And it's possible to ride the elevator Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. wow. Bob: up and down and see these well, I never saw the big stars, but I saw a lot of people that worked on the shows. And yeah, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: it was fun. It was it was that was the most fun I ever had, I think. And the reason I got the joke I was a radio Darrel-Lynne Thieson: And what were you doing there? Yeah. Bob: Yeah, a radio announcer. What was I doing there? I I'll I'll take a step back. When I was in Cleveland, I worked at a another big fifty I finally made it to Cleveland, by the way. Thanks to us, you know, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Right. Bob: thanks to Chick Watkins, who was kind enough to give me a job there at at at 1220 W G A R in Cleveland, big 50,000 watt station. And that station was big, and you know, usually the 50,000 watt AM stations have this nighttime signal because of the way the atmosphere is, you know, the the signal bounces, literally, it bounces off the ionosphere, back to the ground, up again, yeah. And it bounced it bounced all the way it bounced all the way down to North Carolina. And this guy, Dale Parsons, who was a disc jockey program manager at a radio station in North Carolina, heard me on the air. when I was at WGAR doing my shtick, my funny, my funny stuff. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and he and he, Dale Parsons, eventually became the program manager at 66 WNBC. That's how I got the job. He said, Bob Bob James, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: real real Bob, because I called myself the real Bob James. And I that that is in itself is a lie because I It's never real. It's it's show business. You know, you gotta be Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Bob: Mr. Show business all the time. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: anyway, so he was the guy that hired me and it was a wonderful experience. And it was just before NBC left. R because NBC's no longer involved in radio broadcasting. It's gone. There is no there's no Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Okay. Bob: radio at Radio City anymore. And that that big building, Radio City Music Hall, was built. for radio shows and for bro you know for symphonies and all the stuff that the David Sarnoff who was the big the big cheese at NBC wanted to do with radio and his music box and all the stuff he wanted to do. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: So but yeah that makes me sad that there's no radio at Radio City. But I was there for a little while and it was it was fun Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and I I enjoyed it. It radio is a lot like life, you know, it's like well for me it was. I mean it's like You come, you enjoy it, and then there's sadness and it goes away. And then there's something else and you enjoy it and that goes away and you know that's kinda Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bob: like it's kinda like capitalism, I guess. I don't know. I Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: 'cause that's what it's all about. You know, they're trying to make as much money as they can and create an environment on the radio to sell products in. That's that's what they're up

that's what Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: they're up to. So and you know Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I don't want to jump too far ahead, but what's striking Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: me about what you're sharing is like I'm sure there's a lot of people that if they heard you talking about radio and watts and kind of just Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: how radio works, it would just like even myself, I have like a general understanding, but a lot of it Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: like I don't know how that works. It's just it just does, right? But it's very interesting Bob: Yeah, right, right. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: that you're kind of you're sharing kind of like this older I'll say older technology, it still endures, Bob: Yeah, yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: but you also wrote a book about AI. And like Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: a told a story about AI. So it's like I think it's interesting how you've you have like this very broad Bob: well. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I'm and I'm missing the words right now, but I can see Bob: Well. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: you've you've seen like a lot of different ways technology has been in our lives in through your through your life, right? Bob: Yeah, I've seen I've seen a lot a lot yeah, a lot of technology death is what I've seen. Because, you know, when I was on the Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: air it was it was it was an analog. Everything was analog. Push buttons, tapes, that kind of stuff, you know, eight like eight tracks, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Yeah. Bob: but they weren't really eight tracks. Anyway, yeah, so yeah, I I I have and because I have an interest in, you know, history, media history in particular, and you know culture and censorship and all those things that are about, you know, that are a part of or intersect each other, really. I I'm interested in that. So yeah, I I have I used all that experience and I I wrote a a little book or not a little but anyway, I wrote a book called Radioland and it's a Darrel-Lynne Thieson: really? Bob: n yeah, yeah, it's it's up on Bob Pondillobooks dot com. If you ever want to check it out. Anyway, so I wrote Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and and and David did the audiobook version of it. That that's that friend of mine, David. yeah, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: so he so there's an audiobook and then there's the and it's a story of it's a it's what I call a a a novelized or a fictionalized memoir. A fictionalized memoir. Okay because Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: it it's not me. I'm not talking about me, but of course all the things that happen in it. reflect many of the things that happened in my life. And it tells a story of a little boy who gets enamored by radio. And the the subheading of the book or you know the the it's called Radioland colon everything that enchants deceives isn't that good and that's not me that's Plato Plato said that everything that enchants Darrel-Lynne Thieson: cool. Bob: deceives. And that's what it's about. This young boy who gets involved in the glitter and glitz of of show business and then gets a chance to be a part of it, you know, gets invited to come help the disc jockey that he's fallen in love with. And and he gets to see behind the curtain what really happens. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: And then you know, and I I tell I tell a lot of stories about what happened in radio that's that's not very savory. But it happened. I was there, so I know it happened. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow. Bob: and this and this gentleman, this young man, this young boy and this guy that's disjockey that he likes, swinging Dicky Peppers is the disjockey's name, is based on a character or is based on a disjockey real a real guy that I used to listen to when I was a little boy out of Chicago at WCFL. Big Ten, WCFL. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: Big Ten W C F L Chicago. You know. What a gr I mean, I tell Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: ya, Top Forty Radio was like insane. It was so much it was so fun. And the disc jockeys were fun and funny and mm a little blue, you know. There yeah, they were, they were. Yeah, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right, yeah. A little edgy for the time, yeah. Bob: and and and and and this guy, it was the guy who I modeled the character after was named Barney Pip. Barney Pip, he came he had a you know, these radio announcers used to have these deep voices, hi everyone, you know. And this Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: guy was like, Hi kids, how are you? You know, he and it just cracked Darrel-Lynne Thieson: that's so great. Bob: he just cracked me up. Anyway, so I wrote about that. And and and it's it's it's really the story of a of an old guy telling as if he'd be sitting across from you the you know, having coffee and telling you the story of his life, pretty much. And and that's that's the that's the conceit of that's the structure, the structural part of the program. That's how it structures out. And and then eventually he he he learns, you know, the the old man finally gets it. And and I mean it's it's it's not like A new philosophical observation. It's the it's an old observation. It's Camus, it's all the old philosophers telling you the same thing over and over again, which is like your precious life is insignificant. It's just Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: your precious, insignificant life. And yes, does it mean anything? No, but it sure means something to you. You know, and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: that's the kind that's the kind of stuff that, you know, I I try to th the human condition, the stuff that we think about all the time is as just being alive, wondering how the hell how the hell did we get here? And what are we supposed to do and what does it all mean and all those things. And that's and that's what Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Yeah. Bob: I try to kind of focus on. And also have a few laughs as we go through the book because, you know, I try to be fun Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, I get a sense that

there's a lot of comedy infused in in in all of the your work. Bob: Yeah. There is, except for one book. The I I wrote everything I write. I can't seem to not write things with funny stuff in it. I don't know why. Maybe just because I look at the world that way, maybe I don't know. But but there was one book called The Confession, which is a horror story. And it's not a horror story with like jump cuts and you know, ghosts and stuff like that. It's it's a real It's like I said to myself, okay, if you want to write a horror story, I wanna make it like what scares adults, what really scares adults? And and so I started thinking about it and i i I set this story in nineteen fifty-nine, fifty-eight, fifty-nine, America. And that was a very, very I mean, it's it it was a strange time, very much I was gonna say very much like today. But more racism. I mean, even though there's a Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: ton of racism in in the culture right now, but the I mean quite, you know, African American hate and the coming of rock and roll music and all the stuff that was happening back in the in the fifties and how it was it was slowly changing and the impact of the Catholic Church. I'm a lapsed Catholic and I so I went to Catholic school and I remember some of the stuff that I saw, not only in Catholic school but in po P you know, public school too. and I I used all this as a way to tell a story about a little girl who's a Catholic girl, eight years old, who has to tell her her priest a sin because she has to are are you familiar with Catholicism at all? I don't know if you are you in that area. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, generally, yeah. Bob: You you're kinda cool with that. Anyway, so you Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yep. Bob: you have to go you have to go to okay, take a step back. the Catholic Church. Back in the 1600s, believed that you're born with the sin of Eve, very patriarchal. You're born with the sin of Eve on your soul. So that means Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay, yeah. Bob: as a as a child, as an infant, as a newborn, you have sin on you, which is kind of crazy when you think about it, but okay. So that's what they believe, and you have to get baptized. You have to go in the water and get water. Water will clean you away, right? And that's the symbolism of the baptism. All right. But The problem is, according to you know Saint Saint Augustine and all the other ones, all the other Polycarp and all those guys, sin sticks to you like gum or something, right? Or mucilage or something. It's it sticks to you. And and so before you're able to have a communion, before you're able to sit and eat with Christ, with Jesus Christ Himself, who is God, by the way, Who is God and is also God. He's God and he's God and he's another God too. He's three gods. But anyway, you have to, you have to clean your soul of the sins, and you do that by confessing the sins to the priest. Another 1500s kind of a notion. So you go in and you tell the sin your priest, the priest

your sins, and then they give you ex they give you Penance to do, which means you say prayers. You say, Hail Mary's and our fathers and stuff like that, act of contrition, all those things. And then you then you're clean and you're able to be presented to Jesus and ha and eat him. You have to eat Jesus because that's be because it's Darrel-Lynne Thieson: And eat him. Bob: you do. You have to eat him. It's a pagan notion, the idea that well, you see that deer over there? I one, I I want to run as fast as the deer. The pagans thought, well, if you want to go that fast, you have to eat You have to eat Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: the flesh of the deer, you stick it inside your body, and boom. You too can run as fast as the deer, is be as smart as the owl or as be as whatever, you know, like that. That kind of BS. So so you have to eat Jesus because it puts it inside your body. And I don't know how many pieces of the host, you know, ycause like a cracker. You have to eat a cracker. And I don't know how many crackers you have to eat to get a full Jesus, but somebody said it's it's many. You'd you'd be eating for about thirty-five years, you know, or more l or more. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: This Bob: But anyway, so it's all symbolic. I get it. And so what this little girl has to do is give a sin, but she's eight years old. And she can't think of a sin. And so with the help of her friend who's a psychopath, a little boy her age, but is also kind of badly treated by the culture at the time, says, Well, it's easy. It's e you know, either killing or stealing, or you know, that kind of stuff. Choose one of those. So she goes and steals, she decides she's gonna go to a drugstore and steal the head off of a little Barbie doll. and put it in her pocket and that's gonna be her sin and there you go. And that's the rest of the story. What happens after that sort of, you know cartwheels or whatever, you know, it just sort of Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: yeah plays out that way. And but it's it's really an i if it's an indictment of anything, it's an indictment of the culture in which these kids lived in the nineteen fifties and the way the people behaved back then. based on, you know, ideas, not very good ideas stacked upon the other, ancient ideas, you know, that from the church, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: from superstitions, from all all the stuff. Yeah, from Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Strange programming. Bob: the yeah, exactly, from the programming, from the patriarchy, from all that stuff. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: So that that's what that's what that story's about. And it's you know, a lot of people don't like that kind of stuff. They don't wanna they don't wanna it's it's not sexual in any way. It's a psychological thing of how pe how children in particular were treated back then. They had absolutely Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: no rights, just like women, had very few rights back Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: then. And yeah, what a terrible time to live. I'm happy that's over with. But now we gotta face our own problems. I was born in fifty Darrel-Lynne Thieson: What we what year were you born? What year were you born? Bob: w fifty one, nineteen fifty one. Yeah, yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Fifty one? Okay. Yeah, my parents were fifty four, fifty six. I know like yeah, that's pr I'm sure that resonates Bob: Mm-hmm. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: with you know, the generation from then too. Like if the kid Bob: Well, you know. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: you know, we're kids back then, right? But that's a bit of a cliffhanger. Bob: Yeah, I was I was just a little boy. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Like I'm I'm very curious Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: about this book now, you know, like it sounds very interesting. Bob: well well I got well I got I got like I think I had seven up on that thing I Bob Pondillo Books dot com, seven different books. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yep. Bob: by the way, all of those books were screenplays before they were books, before they were novels. I Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Bob: because that's what I do, you know. I mean I've never since I was a little boy, I always wrote s I don't know what I didn't know what I was doing, of course, but and only until I got older did I learned the the real structure of a screenplay. But I was, you know, I I would go, my mom would give me a quarter or a buck or something. And I would go to what do they call those things? The book book festival or something they you know little kids book yeah book fairs yes little kids book fair Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Like a book fair kind of thing. Yeah. Bob: and they would have like you know these also like I think I remember a book called Birdie Goes to Summer Camp. So I and that cost a quarter. And so I read that and I said, yeah, I love this. I gotta write I gotta write I gotta write a story about this. So I I did a story called My Pest Brother. My pest brother. God. And I'm sure it's I saved it. It's terrible, of course, because I'm what nine, ten years old. But Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow. Bob: yeah, but but but that but you know that's I I like to write those things. I don't know why. I truly I I you you It's just something I do, and it's something I do every day. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: So you've been writing you've been writing and storytelling since you could probably remember then. Bob: For a long time. Yeah, yeah, always always doing something like that. So pretty pretty strange, pretty goofy, kind of a very unusual child, you know. I don't know, okay. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Fascinating. So you've written screenplays. So you started with screenplays before you wrote novels. Bob: Yeah, yeah, and usually it's the other way around. Well, not really, because now novels are made into screenplays, but sometimes Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Bob: a screen a screenplay happens and then because it's so popular, the powers that be, you know, the producers decide, well, let's make a book out of it. So they make

a book Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: out of a screenplay. Well, this was reversed. I made I made a screenplay and I said and I showed it to people and I tried for like ten years to get Hollywood to look at them, read it, at least I mean look at it, you know, you you don't have to take it, but see what I'm trying to do here. And but everybody has screenplays. I mean there are milli hundreds of thousands of them. And Hollywood moves very slowly on stuff like that. Especially if you're a guy like me who doesn't have a proof of performance, as they call it. so I I I showed it to a few people And they looked at it and said, Yeah, this is good. I like this. This is a good story. You should you should write you should write a novel. And my wife said I should write a novel, and everybody else was saying, Well, give it a try. So I thought, all right, and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it, because the story is right there for me. You know, I mean the the beginning, middle, and an end, the characters. all I have to do is expand the action, expand the characters, plug up some plot holes, you know, and make it make it a story, make it a make it a a viable story. Now it it does, it is very cinematic in its reading. It reads like a I think it reads like a movie. You could see it as you read it, and that's what I was trying to do anyway. So so That that's what I did. I I took all my eight screenplays and I turned them into movies. I mean the other way around. The screenplays turned them into novels. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: I don't know, have you had a chance to look at any? I don't know. I sent you some stuff, but Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Look, I looked on your website. I'm honestly most care like I'm interested in your writing, but the the one that you most recently released, it's about what was it called? My name is Wallace. Bob: yeah, my name is Wallace. Yeah. See, there's this suddenly there's this and that's and now it's getting some traction. Some people are buying it and looking at it, which is great. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, yeah. Bob: D, I I'd give these books away. I really would. If you know, if if Amazon would let me. But they they won't even the what you call the the ebooks are like ninety nine cents. You know, you they won't Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: they they want to make money, I understand. But my thing is let's just Yeah, yeah, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Ninety nine cents is nothing. So yeah, like Bob: let's just get out there. You know, that's what I want. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: so anyway, yes, my name is Wallace. There's suddenly this like this past couple of weeks, all we've been hearing about is AI's gonna kill us. You know, it it it in the f yeah, yeah, in the future AI Darrel-Lynne Thieson: That has been the headline. Wild. Bob: is coming and it's it w within ten years, ten percent, this and that. And it's like, holy sha and this movie or this it was a movie, it's not a

this novel, My Name is Wallace, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: was also a short film, but the the the story is about not what's happening in the future day w but what's happening to our to our heads, where to our how it's messing with our minds right now. And now it is a little Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Bob: bit in the future because there is something called the loneliness industry or the companionship industry is what the tech bros are calling it. And what they're doing is making you know, AI boyfriends and girlfriends. Mostly guys though, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: are the ones that get into it. I mean, there's more guys than women, although women are a part of it, low like thirty seven percent. But mo so mostly it's guys and I I'm talking millions of guys all around the world are into this fake girlfriend thing. And and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: it's a it's a three right now it's a three billion dollar industry and they were expecting it to go to Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay, I didn't know that. Like I I I should I'm not surprised. I shouldn't be surprised. But like I didn't Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: know it had blown up that quickly already. Bob: it it's it's huge and they expect it to be like a forty billion dollar industry by ten years from now. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: That's wild. Bob: Yeah, it's amazing. So I thought, well, I have this concept, I have this story, and but it it it it originally was about a a neurodivergent man who just lost his mother, lives alone, and and he's lonely and he's sad and lonely and he wants To have love in his life. So he contacts a sex line, one eight hundred, you know, sex line on the phone. It's a telephone data telephone sex service or whatever they call it. And and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and that is now nobody does that anymore. Nobody does uses, you know, that there everybody seems to be online and and certainly the Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: st st the statistical evidence proves that. I mean it's incredible how many people are online. Like ninety-four percent of the nation is is using you know online stuff, p Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: fa Facebook, TikTok, you name it, wh whatever they're on, but there's there's a lot of them. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Ninety four percent. Bob: Yeah, yeah, it's way high. Way high. I'd never think it was that high, but it is. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Wow. Bob: And so and you know, and those who have broadband are you know have enough money to have broadband are on that And those who don't, they just use their cell phones, you know, and they they just pick it up off the, you Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Gotcha. Bob: know, off the cell. Anyway, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: so I thought, well, l let's take this notion then of what's happening in the culture right now with the AI girlfriends and boyfriends, and g bring in the neurodivergent guy again and and have him inadvertently f get in touch after his mom passes. He gets in touch with

this this Vizbot. You know, it's not really it's in my story, AI has advanced two two or three leaps ahead, you know. And now these Vizbots can pop up and they can actually chat with you and then you could see their faces and you could, you know, get into being boyfriend and girlfriend with them or whatever they do. I'm sure they do other things. But Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Bob: So so that's that's the story. And he so he falls for this this girl and then the truth is revealed and then he decides Wallace is a very smart guy, but he also puts ideas together incorrectly sometimes. He does because he Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: doesn't really you know, neurodivergent folks sometimes they certainly don't get idioms. They don't understand like you a penny saved is a penny earned, or if you say that to them, they say, Well, what has this got to do with a penny? You know, they They they they don't see the context and things often. So so I use that as part of the reasons why Wallace gets so entangled in this. And and then we we we follow him as he goes on in search of the of the he thinks a model was used for this girl that he likes and he wants to go find her. And that's incorrect, but he doesn't know that and then and that's it it works out. It's a it's a It's a very sweet story and it's also a a bit of an indictment to the to the tech bros and their loneliness industry. You know, s some idea I I understand Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: they're good ideas, but my God, there's you can hurt people with this, you know. You can really hurt a lot of people with this. And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: and so we should think about that at least, you know. And that's and that's what I'm saying in the book. Yeah. So so yes, so that's Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think there has to be like a certain there has to be a certain baseline of like consciousness we can bring to everyday life before we start interacting with this artificial intelligence. And Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: if we're interacting with it unconsciously, yeah, it's gonna do some very strange things to our brains, to our lives. I mean, who knows? Bob: Right. Yeah, there's some Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I don't know how they're saying AI is gonna kill us. I actually don't know how AI is going to kill us if it's going to, but Bob: I I d I don't know either. It might be it might be something about military weapons or some some kind of weaponry where they're where where Darrel-Lynne Thieson: it's more of the military, okay. Bob: yeah, where it'll do something and then explode you know, like send missile. I I I have no clue to tell you the truth, but it could be that, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: it could be other things. I read that AI is is not helping our reading and writing anymore. I mean it's not helping people, you know, write because it writes for you, so you don't have to think. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, yeah. Bob: And that Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: that's kinda s that's kinda strange because we're Darrel-Lynne Thieson: It's more the cognitive decline that has me concerned because it's taking Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: over so much of our own our of the tasks that we do that it's we're not we yeah, it's say we don't have to think as much, which I don't I mean, generally Bob: Right. Right. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: speaking, I don't think a lot of people are thinking too hard to begin with. So if we hand off all the tasks, maybe I was thinking that what might be kill might that would be might what might kill us is us like our brains is just completely shut down. Bob: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I but Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I I say that as a joke, but yeah. Bob: no I hear ya, but I I think there's something going on there because what we've learned what I've learned anyway, in being an academia is you know h quiet and reading and thinking is really that's something that we're supposed to do. And the and the the great philosophers of the past always thought that you know, if you present a a rational argument. people will act rationally. B of course that's not we s clearly see that's not true, but Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Right. Bob: but that's part of it. That's part of it. And if you want to learn how to be a good student and a good scholar, you know, you write things down and you reread them and you write again and you I mean it it i yeah, Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. You remember, yeah. Bob: it takes a lot of it takes a lot of time, which means you'd have to pull away from social media television, all that stuff, you have to pull away from that. And that is a drug, man. That is the plug in drug. It is hard to get away from that. But if you could just if Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Yeah. I'm Bob: you could go ahead, I'm sorry. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: No, I was just gonna say there is definitely data that points to when devices or phones were put in our hands and around twenty twelve that the increase in the mental health health crisis has just shot up since twenty twelve, since the smartphones were put in our hands. So Bob: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And a a a yeah, a good place to find out as much as you want really about what's happening in social media is the Pew P E W P E W Pew st statistical you know what would you call it? The Pew Research Center, I guess. And they do statistics Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: on on on everything, all things of religion, politics. social media, all that stuff. And they are the gold standard. I mean, they are real Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Okay. Bob: I mean, I because, you know, in grad school you have to take statistics, which I sucked Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Sure. Bob: at. But I took it and I I realize how important it is. And if if somebody ach if somebody approaches doing statistical work with a good heart and want to be a real A p a person who's not gonna screw with it and try to make it be try to make the numbers be what they want it to be,

really be Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: be accurate and be tested and what have you. it's they're very valuable to have. So the Pew Research Center is really good. They're online. Yeah, yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, thank you for that reference. Yeah. Bob: Anybody could check it out. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: For sure. That's so good. So where where else do you want to take us on this chat, on this journey we've been on? It's so good. Bob: I I don't I d i was it? It's Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Absolutely. Bob: just me rambling here, I thought. But well, all I wanted to do was the the reason I wanted to come and talk to you is because of the books. I just wanted people to know about them. And I know you have Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Yeah. Bob: people that that like to read and look at books. I mean, you know, reading for fun, not reading for anything Darrel-Lynne Thieson: A hundred percent. Bob: else. And to to know that Bob Pondillo Books dot com is out there now and if you if you Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, we will absolutely I will absolutely be sharing it and we'll promote it on socials. you know, I have a question for you. So you're Bob: thank you. yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: obviously I would you're a creative, you're a writer. Do you consider yourself Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: an artist? Bob: I I don't even consider myself a writer and yet I've been writing all the time. I you know, it's I it's it's I I I think I'm learning and I'm getting better at it. I don't know. I I I don't know what to say. And and that's not only me talking. There's so many film directors that say the same thing who've been making great Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: films like Spielbergs and stuff, you know, who say, Yeah, you know, I'm getting the hang of it. you know. I Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I love that. Bob: I I think it's wise to Be as humble as you can because Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Bob: there's still a lot of stuff I don't know. And if well there's more stuff I don't know than I do know, and the more you know, the less you feel like you do know. It's the weirdest thing. But yeah Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah, yeah. Bob: yeah, I an artist that's not for me to I mean I hope people Darrel-Lynne Thieson: That's not for you to say. Bob: no, I I hope people see artist artistry in it. I think, you know I'm still moved by beautiful sentences and the way c people craft words and and beautiful images and stuff like that. I I I love that and I I wanna I wanna help make that. So Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm. Bob: so if that's art, yeah, I s I suppose. I mean I'm not like, you know, Shakespeare or anything. I'm I'm just a guy that writes and Darrel-Lynne Thieson: No, you're not because you're Bob Pondillo. So so thank you for letting me correct you on that. Now the reason I ask is Bob: that's true. That yes, I keep forgetting. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: you know I I I'm I'm around a lot of creative people. I'm in a Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: a

community called the Dharma Artists Collective. creators, like just people that are really it tapped into their own artistry and letting whatever you know, is coming through them, come out in Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: the form that they like to create, which for you sounds like it's writing, but you have such Bob: Yeah, yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: a colorful and decorated past that I feel Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: like maybe before we close out the episode, I'm wondering if you could just share some some gold nugget of some sort for the creator out there, some inspiration, whatever comes to Bob: Well, let's see. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: you, you know? Bob: Yeah, I well I this comes I I do have a thought, because I always go back to it, so I guess this is the one. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Let's Bob: the the the cultural theorists, right? Th those who follow the culture and write about the culture and think about, especially in the in the written arts and stuff, they'll say, always remember that meaning meaning is made. At the intersection of text and reader. Now, what does that mean in English? Well, mean in other words, the writer of a story really has no privileged position as to what the meaning of that story is. I mean, you could ask them, but everybody brings to a to a book or to a movie or to whatever text. A movie is a text, and a book is a text, and a radio station, and a magazine article. Whatever, those are called the texts. Anybody who picks up that book and reads it brings with them everything they are and all that they know, right? And Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Mm-hmm. Bob: so they will make it mean. They will make those words mean something that maybe I haven't even thought of, to tell you the truth, you know. So meaning Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yeah. Bob: is made at the intersection of text and reader. You make things mean because we, you and I, are meaning-making. Pattern seeking, storytelling creatures. We need to, we need to have things mean something. So we make them mean something. And and I think that's the key to understanding so many things. You know, when you start if you want to really look at religion, take a look at that and use that lens. We are meaning-making, pattern-seeking, storytelling creatures. And you can see suddenly. new ways of understanding that. And and and that's and and I would even tell my my students that, you know, if if if you remember nothing else, remember that one. You know I mean you could Darrel-Lynne Thieson: good. Bob: live a good life not knowing a lot of stuff I'm talking about. But remember that we are meaning making, pattern seeking, storytelling creatures. And I think that's a good thing to that's a good thing Darrel-Lynne Thieson: I love that. Bob: to contemplate if you want. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Abs and yeah, I'll actually be taking that and chewing on it because that's that's a good Bob: Yeah. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: that's very it's a great share. So thank you. that'll Bob: you bet. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: probably turn into a clip. I'm gonna say it right now. It's probably gonna be a clip. So yeah, so good. Bob: Okay, okay. Well you you do you, whatever w however it is it's your show, dear. You do what you do, D. So Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Yes, yeah. Bob: yeah, I'm I'm happy. I'm just so happy that the word is getting out because of people like you are so kind to let me come on and ramble, ramble, I'm a rambling man. You bet. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Well, thank you for coming on to Ramble and chat with this human here. So much appreciated. Bob: You bet. Anytime, anytime I'd be delighted to to come and chat with you. Darrel-Lynne Thieson: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing today. Bob: You bet, you bet. Talk to you soon.