บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ How to Handle a Psycho Ex

pattern of false claims. 72 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:21.459 He said that he'd hired people with HIV to rape me. 73 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:25.800 And I was, I actually believed everything was true and 74 00:04:25.860 --> 00:04:29.889 I was terrified. absolutely terrified. And I couldn't find a 75 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:33.269 lawyer who had any sort of expertise with an individual 76 00:04:33.389 --> 00:04:38.589 who was just absolutely hellbent on their target's destruction. I 77 00:04:38.629 --> 00:04:41.100 had a very nice woman who tried to help me 78 00:04:41.129 --> 00:04:43.379 get an order of protection. I had a very nice 79 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.860 man who was a criminal attorney who was working with 80 00:04:46.899 --> 00:04:50.360 me in defending the criminal charges. But for everybody, this 81 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:54.500 was like a real one-off case. That was what was 82 00:04:55.060 --> 00:04:58.339 I think the scariest part of this was that no 83 00:04:58.420 --> 00:05:01.620 one really knew how to handle somebody who was just 84 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:05.689 absolutely unhinged and didn't play by the rules. I. 85 00:05:06.629 --> 00:05:08.610 First of all, I'm so sorry that you went through 86 00:05:08.649 --> 00:05:11.709 that because I feel like as a woman, that is 87 00:05:12.329 --> 00:05:16.029 so terrifying. You were believing all these things because how 88 00:05:16.089 --> 00:05:19.110 could you not, you know, like he was filing these 89 00:05:19.170 --> 00:05:21.470 things in court. And so when he's like, oh, I'm 90 00:05:21.490 --> 00:05:25.680 going to have, three men come with HIV, like you're like, oh, 91 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:27.930 well then why would I not think that's going to happen? 92 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:30.870 And so I can imagine like the paranoia and like 93 00:05:31.350 --> 00:05:36.149 the loneliness you felt was to an extreme. And the 94 00:05:36.189 --> 00:05:38.930 fact that you're saying no one knew how to handle this. 95 00:05:39.069 --> 00:05:40.709 No one dealt with these cases. 96 00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:44.709 Yeah, it was really bad. And I say this with 97 00:05:44.769 --> 00:05:47.910 so many of my clients also, because when I finally 98 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:50.029 broke up with him, I was already in a really 99 00:05:50.149 --> 00:05:54.819 beaten down, compromised state. state where so much of my 100 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.730 life was controlled by him. I'd gotten really isolated. It 101 00:05:58.149 --> 00:06:02.129 was only like four months, but like, he was so 102 00:06:02.209 --> 00:06:04.810 jealous that during that relationship, I barely hung out with 103 00:06:04.850 --> 00:06:06.569 my friends. And so they were all kind of pissed 104 00:06:06.629 --> 00:06:10.470 off at me, my relationships with my siblings and my 105 00:06:10.550 --> 00:06:14.560 parents all got strained and they were They all saw 106 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:17.459 that this was a really unhealthy relationship, but I wouldn't 107 00:06:17.500 --> 00:06:20.350 listen to them. I even stopped going to my therapist 108 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.790 because she was telling me this is an unhealthy relationship. 109 00:06:23.930 --> 00:06:25.870 And I was like, I'm in love with this person. 110 00:06:26.069 --> 00:06:31.389 I can't hear you. So all my support system was 111 00:06:31.449 --> 00:06:34.000 really compromised. And so the people that would have really 112 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.680 helped me, I wasn't taking their advice or their help. 113 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:40.730 It exacerbated it. I see it. I see this so 114 00:06:40.769 --> 00:06:43.529 much with my clients when they're leaving an abusive relationship. 115 00:06:43.569 --> 00:06:46.589 The first job is just to like go at their 116 00:06:46.629 --> 00:06:50.069 pace and earn their trust and kind of recognize that 117 00:06:51.129 --> 00:06:54.779 even though they probably know that they're in a horrible situation, 118 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:57.420 it can be really, really hard to leave it. And 119 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:03.620 they might be giving their abuser a lot more weight 120 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:08.939 and be thinking that the threats are are just more 121 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:13.170 extreme than they– or more likely than they actually are. 122 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:35.699 It's here. Heineken Greenlight. 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Visit drinkaware.ie. 128 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:07.540 Do you have any advice for someone listening right now 129 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:09.930 that's like, oh, I don't really want to hear it, 130 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.360 but that may be me because I guess I don't 131 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:14.339 have any friends or family left because I know it's 132 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:15.259 so much easier said than done. 133 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:16.180 Like, just leave. 134 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:17.300 It's not that easy. 135 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.000 My first piece of advice is to read this book 136 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.199 called Why Does He Do That? That book changed my 137 00:08:26.290 --> 00:08:29.569 life because it is about people who are in relationships 138 00:08:29.730 --> 00:08:33.350 with sociopaths. And the one thing about that book is 139 00:08:33.409 --> 00:08:35.509 it kind of is about how to stay in the 140 00:08:35.529 --> 00:08:40.090 relationship with sociopaths. And so when I got a book deal, 141

00:08:40.110 --> 00:08:43.330 I kind of wanted to write the next aspect of that, 142 00:08:43.690 --> 00:08:45.490 which is what to do when you are under attack 143 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.779 and trying to leave a sociopath. So my book has 144 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:53.029 a lot of stories about leaving and about the different 145 00:08:53.090 --> 00:08:56.720 types of abusers and the patterns of abuse that we see. 146 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:01.419 Because once a person realizes that their offender almost has 147 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:05.879 like a playbook, it becomes a little less scary and 148 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:10.029 they become more predictable. And then once you have that distance, 149 00:09:10.169 --> 00:09:12.269 even if you're still in the relationship, I think that 150 00:09:12.450 --> 00:09:18.450 distance can kind of help differentiate a person who's in 151 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:21.779 an abusive relationship from their abuser because they can I 152 00:09:21.830 --> 00:09:25.610 think the whole problem is that there's a merger between 153 00:09:25.629 --> 00:09:28.970 the two people where they're almost become one person and 154 00:09:29.009 --> 00:09:31.730 you have to go through this process of differentiating and 155 00:09:32.210 --> 00:09:35.610 seeing the other person and realizing that your whole life 156 00:09:35.669 --> 00:09:39.009 doesn't have to be dedicated to walking on eggshells to 157 00:09:39.029 --> 00:09:43.610 be accommodating their rages and their moods and So I 158 00:09:43.649 --> 00:09:46.279 think that they should read my book, Nobody's Victim. This 159 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:50.059 is not a book plug. It is actually a really 160 00:09:50.179 --> 00:09:54.419 helpful book for just understanding the different kind of taxonomies 161 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:58.750 of abuse. And then I feel like there's a code. 162 00:09:59.389 --> 00:10:03.690 There's kind of a knowledge that people in abusive situations have, 163 00:10:04.049 --> 00:10:07.360 or you always, it might not be your best friend 164 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:09.840 or your mom or somebody that you've historically been really 165 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:13.019 close to, but there is somebody in your life that 166 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.419 wants to help you. and wants to help you get 167 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:18.500 out of it. And it's probably somebody that you can 168 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:22.740 just tell has been in a horrible situation themselves. It 169 00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:25.500 might be a lawyer. People can always call us. We 170 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.120 help people break up and can help with like the 171 00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:32.049 safety planning and the pre-planning that you can do before 172 00:10:32.070 --> 00:10:34.730 you break up. And we help people figure out what 173 00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:37.950 excuses they're making. Sometimes it's something like we share a 174 00:10:37.990 --> 00:10:40.200 lease together or we have a dog in common or 175 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:42.620 the most complicated thing is we have a kid in common. 176 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:45.429 But other times it's things that hey, you can just 177 00:10:45.490 --> 00:10:48.350 walk away from this. We have concert tickets next month, 178 00:10:48.570 --> 00:10:51.250 or we're planning a vacation, or it's going to be 179 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:54.470 the anniversary of his mom's death. I'm using the male pronouns, 180 00:10:54.529 --> 00:11:00.340 but obviously abuse comes in every gender and abused people 181 00:11:00.529 --> 00:11:04.240 are every gender as well. But there's a lot of 182 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:07.720 preparation that can be done to get somebody in the 183 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:09.259 right mind frame. 184 00:11:09.779 --> 00:11:12.259 I want to kind of discuss, because I know there's 185 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:14.419 going to be people listening to this that are like, okay, 186 00:11:15.259 --> 00:11:19.600 I'm going through something maybe similar or somewhere in this 187 00:11:19.700 --> 00:11:23.519 realm of harassment with an ex. So just to discuss 188 00:11:23.539 --> 00:11:25.539 some of the crimes that your ex committed against you 189 00:11:25.590 --> 00:11:28.570 and break down what to do in each situation in 190 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:32.129 order to provide listeners with advice. So your ex flooded 191 00:11:32.149 --> 00:11:35.710 your phone with hundreds of threatening emails and texts. If 192 00:11:35.750 --> 00:11:38.429 a client comes to you because they are being flooded 193 00:11:38.549 --> 00:11:43.049 with threatening texts and emails, how do you advise them 194 00:11:43.269 --> 00:11:43.889 to respond? 195 00:11:45.340 --> 00:11:49.279 So usually when somebody is being bombarded like that, all 196 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.759 their ex wants is a response and they want it 197 00:11:52.830 --> 00:11:56.710 from them. And it's like crack. So my first bit 198 00:11:56.730 --> 00:12:01.909 of advice is do not respond. When you break up 199 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.210 with somebody, you should say, okay, I've made a decision. 200 00:12:05.250 --> 00:12:09.820 This relationship is over. And This is not open for discussion. 201 00:12:10.419 --> 00:12:12.980 And I will be in contact with you in the 202 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.960 next three days to figure out logistics. But basically, if 203 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.159 it's an abusive person, do not have a conversation with 204 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:24.720 them because they will... talk you out of it, they 205 00:12:24.740 --> 00:12:26.980 will beat you down. And it will just be kind 206 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.559 of easier to just make peace and stay than to 207 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:36.049 deal with whatever wrath because people have already adjusted and 208 00:12:36.350 --> 00:12:39.889 learned how to tolerate being an abusive relationship. And the 209 00:12:39.929 --> 00:12:42.350 devil they know

is a lot more tolerable than the 210 00:12:42.389 --> 00:12:45.049 devil they don't. And so it's true that in a 211 00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:48.049 lot of times, In a lot of ways, the breakup 212 00:12:48.090 --> 00:12:52.970 can be so unknown and it's scary. And if you 213 00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:56.429 start to break up with somebody and then they become 214 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.460 furious or threatening or try to win you over with 215 00:13:01.580 --> 00:13:05.220 gestures and stuff, you will wimp out. I mean, it's 216 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:09.159 just like, the pragmatic thing to do is to wimp 217 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:13.279 out because that is in your short-term benefit, but it's 218 00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:17.240 not in your long-term benefit. And so- you don't want 219 00:13:17.299 --> 00:13:19.639 to subject yourself to a conversation. And that can feel 220 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:23.139 really uncomfortable because it might be somebody that you feel 221 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:26.580 compassion for. And that person has taught you to feel 222 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.399 guilty about them at all times and has taught you 223 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.980 to feel indebted to them and dependent on them. And 224 00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:37.700 so it feels very counterintuitive to cut them off, but 225 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:39.860 that's the only way you're going to get out of 226 00:13:39.899 --> 00:13:42.129 it because they're a parasite that is feeding off of 227 00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:44.330 you and you have to just walk them off and 228 00:13:44.370 --> 00:13:49.049 they will flail until they find their next host. But 229 00:13:49.090 --> 00:13:50.730 that's the only thing that you can do really for 230 00:13:50.769 --> 00:13:54.870 your own self preservation. So do not contact them besides 231 00:13:54.909 --> 00:13:56.970 just saying, do not, you know, I've made a decision. 232 00:13:56.990 --> 00:14:00.549 Do not contact me for X period of time, let 233 00:14:00.570 --> 00:14:03.620 them flail. And then you can have a third party 234 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.279 who you trust, whether it's a lawyer or a friend, 235 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:12.399 then help you with the logistics because the offender is 236 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:16.720 going to say, well, they're going to use all these excuses. 237 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.539 And first they're going to be really blaming and talk 238 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:22.720 about how you screwed them. And even if you live apart, 239 00:14:23.059 --> 00:14:25.659 they have all this stuff that they need. They'll think 240 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:28.940 of all these excuses for why you have to reconvene 241 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:33.299 for a conversation or something. So Giving them a set 242 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.590 time when you will deal with those logistics is important, 243 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:41.129 but then actually having a third party come in and 244 00:14:41.210 --> 00:14:44.370

be a representative is really good. But also in those 245 00:14:44.450 --> 00:14:49.279 three days, the offender starts going scorched earth. In a 246 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:52.500 lot of cases, that's when we get involved and we 247 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.500 get an order of protection for somebody. An order of 248 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:58.220 protection is sort of the biggest and most important tool 249 00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:02.000 available to people who are in abusive situations and are 250 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.250 being aggressed against over and over and over again, because 251 00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:08.230 it's kind of like a lawsuit. But instead of suing 252 00:15:08.289 --> 00:15:11.529 somebody for money, you're suing them to leave you alone. 253 00:15:12.190 --> 00:15:17.549 You've exercised your right to not be threatened and not 254 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.679 be contacted by this person. And that person is not 255 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.769 respecting that boundary that you've said, because we all should 256 00:15:24.809 --> 00:15:27.379 have the right to break up. But it's amazing how 257 00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:30.080 many people who are on the other side who are 258 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:34.159 being broken up with don't actually see it as their 259 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.419 ex's right to like not be in a relationship with them. 260 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.220 How do you rationally explain to them? Like, no, it 261 00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:42.740 will get worse if you respond. Cause I understand that 262 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:44.600 feeling of like, I don't want to block him. I 263 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:48.039 don't want to not answer because then what if it escalates? 264 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:48.879 Do you know what I mean? 265 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:49.730 Yeah. 266 00:15:50.090 --> 00:15:51.710 And I mean, I think it's one of the hardest 267 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:55.129 things is just to tolerate that discomfort of not responding. 268 00:15:55.629 --> 00:15:58.750 Like our client, even before they become our client, sends 269 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:03.070 an unequivocal message to their ex saying, please do not 270 00:16:03.149 --> 00:16:09.210 contact me. And then that person unequivocally ignores it and 271 00:16:09.289 --> 00:16:13.210 continues to text and call or show up, then that's 272 00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:17.830 when it becomes harassment. And so once they've gotten the 273 00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:21.840 instruction to just leave you alone and they ignore it, 274 00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:25.080 then that becomes harassment, which is illegal. And once you're 275 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.360 in fear for your safety, then it goes from harassment 276 00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:32.299 to stalking, which is even more illegal. And orders of 277 00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:36.610 protection are for situations where you've been physically attacked, but 278 00:16:36.629 --> 00:16:39.750 they also are for situations where you're being threatened, where 279 00:16:39.769 --> 00:16:43.230 there's a course of conduct like harassment, or that's, it's 280 00:16:43.289 --> 00:16:46.029 putting you in fear, like stalking in a lot of 281 00:16:46.049 --> 00:16:51.059 States like New York and California, somebody's, threatening you, you know, 282 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:54.299 they're threatening to post your naked pictures on the internet, 283 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.919 or they do actually post your naked images. Those are 284 00:16:56.940 --> 00:16:58.879 all things that you can get an order of protection for. 285 00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:02.490 And it's amazing how effective an order of protection is 286 00:17:02.789 --> 00:17:05.930 because you'd think like, oh, it's just a piece of paper. 287 00:17:05.970 --> 00:17:10.250 It's not going to stop a bullet. But sometimes that's 288 00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:13.549 all that's required is just, you know, a judge has 289 00:17:13.609 --> 00:17:16.089 signed an order that is saying you have to leave 290 00:17:16.130 --> 00:17:20.430 this person alone. And it can be a real wake-up 291 00:17:20.490 --> 00:17:24.789 call for the offender. And they don't necessarily need more 292 00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:28.529 instruction than that. This is not worth the effort. It's 293 00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:32.490 actually really over. I don't trust or respect my girlfriend 294 00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:36.349 enough to understand it when she tells me that. But 295 00:17:36.390 --> 00:17:38.670 now I have a judge that is telling me that 296 00:17:38.690 --> 00:17:41.420 the relationship is over. So I'm going to respect that. 297 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:46.940 Sometimes in certain situations where we think we... have an 298 00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:52.299 offender who is more cemented in reality, we can get 299 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.720 them to go away with just a cease and desist letter. 300 00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:59.309 But if it's somebody who's really kind of compulsive and 301 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.069 impulsive or has a substance abuse issue and gets drunk 302 00:18:03.089 --> 00:18:07.670 and then makes the threats or has already been pretty violent, 303 00:18:07.970 --> 00:18:09.930 then we get an order of protection. And then if 304 00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:16.109 it's somebody who's even further unhinged, then we just go 305 00:18:16.210 --> 00:18:17.190 straight to the police. 306 00:18:17.730 --> 00:18:20.150 When you talk about getting an order of protection, let's 307 00:18:20.170 --> 00:18:22.230 say someone is sitting, listening to this episode and is 308 00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:24.369 literally like, wait, you said like go to the court 309 00:18:24.410 --> 00:18:26.799 and get one. Like, wait, hold on. I don't even 310 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.519 know how to do that. Like, can you really simplify 311 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.839 to someone that has no resources is like bringing their 312 00:18:32.880 -->

00:18:34.680 cash from under their bed and is like, how do 313 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:36.980 I begin? Like, where do I go? What do I say? 314 00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:40.609 Yes, let's break that down. I'm so glad you're asking 315 00:18:40.630 --> 00:18:43.430 about this, Alex, because it is like when we do 316 00:18:43.490 --> 00:18:46.470 something over and over again, obviously we lose sight of 317 00:18:47.150 --> 00:18:49.970 the actual complexity of it. So basically the first thing 318 00:18:49.990 --> 00:18:52.990 that a person could do is just Google the name 319 00:18:53.029 --> 00:18:57.670 of their state and their town or their county and 320 00:18:57.990 --> 00:19:03.250 domestic violence legal services. And a lot of communities have 321 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:07.740 funded services free lawyers who are basically just there to 322 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.240 help victims of domestic violence. You know, it can be 323 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.630 a bit of a mind hurdle to identify as a 324 00:19:13.670 --> 00:19:16.390 victim of domestic violence, but if you're being harassed or threatened, 325 00:19:16.630 --> 00:19:20.930 then that's the category of lawyer that you need. The 326 00:19:21.049 --> 00:19:27.099 websites will have instructions about hiring somebody as a lawyer 327 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:31.190 and And again, there are lawyers in many, many communities. 328 00:19:31.750 --> 00:19:33.569 In New York, there are so many. In California, there 329 00:19:33.589 --> 00:19:36.890 are so many who are funded just to provide free 330 00:19:36.910 --> 00:19:41.349 legal services. There also are, in some family courts, like 331 00:19:41.769 --> 00:19:45.829 here in New York, there are lawyers that are also 332 00:19:45.930 --> 00:19:49.150 funded to just be, they have offices in the courts. 333 00:19:49.210 --> 00:19:52.539 And so they will help people get an order of protection. 334 00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:55.900 The next thing to do is figure out the court 335 00:19:55.940 --> 00:20:00.000 itself will have a website. And so you can Google 336 00:20:00.980 --> 00:20:04.059 order protection, or in some places they're called domestic violence 337 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:09.849 order protection or temporary restraining order. And there will be 338 00:20:10.430 --> 00:20:17.910 instructions on the website. You can file these electronically. And 339 00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:21.609 it's basically a matter of filling out a form that 340 00:20:21.690 --> 00:20:25.509 talks about, under oath, everything you say has to be true, 341 00:20:25.930 --> 00:20:29.599 but talks about the experience that you've had. And I 342 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:36.069 always recommend that a person detail everything the first encounter violence, 343 00:20:36.369 --> 00:20:40.430 the most extreme encounter violence, and the most recent encounter violence. 344 00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:45.180 And you have to prove that you need an order 345 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.720 of protection, that this person's not honoring your right to 346 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.690 be left alone. And then you either file it electronically 347 00:20:52.730 --> 00:20:55.170 like you can in New York. And that's really an 348 00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:58.740 innovation because of the pandemic. But some states are getting 349 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:03.900 back where they're requiring people to file in person and 350 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.220 actually have an import person court date. And then if 351 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.529 you tell the clerk and the people what you're there 352 00:21:11.589 --> 00:21:13.890 to do, then they'll point you in the right direction. 353 00:21:14.549 --> 00:21:18.690 And I recommend that people go early in the morning 354 00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:23.339 at 9 a.m., when the court opens and to just 355 00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:26.200 plan on taking the day off of work, it can 356 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:29.339 be really inconvenient, but you don't want to go at 357 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.859 three and then have to come back the next day. 358 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.470 There's a lot of waiting around. These are considered emergency orders. 359 00:21:36.950 --> 00:21:40.369 And so the judges have to kind of work it 360 00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:43.410 in between their other cases. And so there can be 361 00:21:43.430 --> 00:21:46.319 a lot of a lot of waiting around. The goal 362 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:48.849 is to walk out with a temporary order of protection 363 00:21:49.230 --> 00:21:51.470 that says that that person has to leave you alone. 364 00:21:51.849 --> 00:21:55.450 And then there's cops that are stationed at the court 365 00:21:55.589 --> 00:21:57.849 or you can take it to the precinct and they 366 00:21:57.890 --> 00:22:01.539 will serve that on your offender. And once the offender 367 00:22:02.059 --> 00:22:04.740 receives the order of protection, then that's when it goes 368 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.359 into effect. There's also another way to do it. You 369 00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:10.940 can hire a lawyer like me and I can basically 370 00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:13.779 shepherd a person through it because you want to get 371 00:22:13.819 --> 00:22:17.450 it right. It's something where it's never fun to spend 372 00:22:17.549 --> 00:22:19.470 money on this, but you want to get it right. 373 00:22:19.529 --> 00:22:23.009 And so if there's a way to either get a 374 00:22:23.730 --> 00:22:28.089 free lawyer or hire a lawyer, that's way better than 375 00:22:28.130 --> 00:22:30.690 doing it on your own because this is scary and 376 00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:36.029 no one And just the process of navigating an unknown 377 00:22:36.329 --> 00:22:39.730 thing like court is scary, but it is something that 378 00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:42.410 is possible to do on your own. 379 00:22:42.430 --> 00:22:45.769 I appreciate you going through that because it's a hard 380 00:22:45.950 --> 00:22:48.049 situation that

you're going through and being alone in it 381 00:22:48.450 --> 00:22:51.809 is not ideal. So do you ever advise your clients 382 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:55.089 to change their phone number when an ex is relentlessly 383 00:22:55.150 --> 00:22:58.210 finding ways to contact them or as far as change 384 00:22:58.230 --> 00:22:59.950 their address, change their name? 385 00:23:01.420 --> 00:23:04.640 Well, in really extreme situations, I like to kind of 386 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:09.680 not subject clients to like massive inconveniences if we don't 387 00:23:09.740 --> 00:23:12.769 have to. I'd rather get them an order of protection, 388 00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:17.730 which is actually quite simple, and see if that resolves 389 00:23:17.829 --> 00:23:21.029 the problem. Because to violate an order of protection is 390 00:23:21.069 --> 00:23:26.170 an automatic arrest. So there's a real disincentive for an 391 00:23:26.210 --> 00:23:29.380 offender to violate it. It's harder to get somebody arrested 392 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:35.130 for harassment. at the precinct or stalking. It can take 393 00:23:35.950 --> 00:23:40.630 weeks or months for the police to do an investigation 394 00:23:41.109 --> 00:23:45.170 if it's like internet-based harassment to subpoena to really prove 395 00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:49.049 that it's the offender. However, if there's an order of protection, 396 00:23:49.069 --> 00:23:52.990 then the crime is violating it. And that's a lot 397 00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:55.279 easier to prove. And so there can be an arrest 398 00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:56.079 the same day. 399 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:17.380 It's here! Heineken Greenlight October Bank Holiday Weekend Galway Big 400 00:24:17.500 --> 00:24:22.990 Acts Intimate Venues Friday October 23rd Catch Joshua E. Dayhen 401 00:24:23.190 --> 00:24:28.009 at Monroe's Saturday October 24th Catch High at Electric Sunday 402 00:24:28.089 --> 00:24:31.650 October 25th Catch Get Down Services at the Roshin Dove 403 00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:35.940 Sunday October 25th Catch Shugaboo and Ahmed with Love at 404 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.339 On Poucan Tickets at heinekengreenlight.ie Get the facts, be drink aware, 405 00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:41.460 visit drinkaware.ie. 406 00:24:46.190 --> 00:24:49.079 You know, it's really scary when you're alone. And a 407 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:50.619 lot of times I feel like this can happen to 408 00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:53.259 like young women or men that are going through it. 409 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.640 And I think what you had touched on is, you know, 410 00:24:55.900 --> 00:25:02.109 the threatening of the naked photos. It's such a terrifying threat. 411 00:25:02.230 --> 00:25:06.289 It's also so not only violating, but disturbing because it 412 00:25:06.349 --> 00:25:09.420 can affect this person's job, their family life, et cetera. 413 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.390 So if someone listening is, is going through a situation 414 00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:16.710 where someone is threatening to post their nude photos online. 415 00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:20.630 What is the first thing that they can do to 416 00:25:21.589 --> 00:25:24.089 protect themselves from this person threatening them? 417 00:25:24.930 --> 00:25:28.119 So the first thing that they can do is... I mean, 418 00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:32.779 it's illegal to threaten to post naked pictures because usually 419 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.500 there's an element of coercion. I'm going to post this 420 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:37.779 to punish you for X, or I'm going to post 421 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:39.619 this if you don't come back to me, which is 422 00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:44.339 also illegal. It's illegal everywhere except Massachusetts and other states. 423 00:25:44.380 --> 00:25:48.029 But we now have 48 states plus DC where it's 424 00:25:48.450 --> 00:25:51.880 a crime to post. And so So a lot of 425 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:55.019 times like the offender won't actually post it. They're just 426 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.859 making the threats, but it's illegal to even send it. 427 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.769 But also things have really changed. And like when I 428 00:26:00.809 --> 00:26:03.109 started the firm, there were only three states that had 429 00:26:03.710 --> 00:26:08.670 crimes for revenge porn. And now there's 48. Plus, there's 430 00:26:08.869 --> 00:26:12.730 the Violence Against Women's Act, which President Biden just recertified 431 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:16.759 after it had expired during Trump's presidency. There's now a 432 00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:20.119 civil cause of action. So you can sue an offender $ 150, 000 433 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:25.319 per picture that they share on the internet and disseminate. 434 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:27.660 A lot of offenders, of course, are judgment proof. So 435 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:32.119 that doesn't necessarily apply. If you don't have any money 436 00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:36.500 to go after, then a civil lawsuit doesn't make sense. 437 00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:37.059 But it's still. 438 00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:40.740 it still at least signals that this is illegal. But also, 439 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:43.680 I think when I have a victim who's really scared 440 00:26:43.700 --> 00:26:47.119 of something, it's important to kind of talk through, well, 441 00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:49.500 what if the worst case scenario happens? What if this 442 00:26:49.539 --> 00:26:54.289 person actually does post it? And number one, it's a crime, 443 00:26:54.349 --> 00:26:57.289 so we could then go report it to the police, 444 00:26:57.309 --> 00:27:00.089 and that person could actually be arrested. We have grounds 445 00:27:00.150 --> 00:27:03.630 for an order of protection. But also, it's It's so 446 00:27:03.690 --> 00:27:06.950 much easier now to get it off the internet than 447 00:27:06.990 --> 00:27:10.279 it used to be because we used to have all 448 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.200 these websites that

were just dedicated to revenge porn. There 449 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:19.000 is an excellent documentary about the most hated man on 450 00:27:19.019 --> 00:27:21.700 the internet about Hunter Moore. We used to have all 451 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.769 these websites that were just there to post your ex's 452 00:27:24.789 --> 00:27:28.029 naked pictures. And now the most, I mean, the most 453 00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:33.019 efficient way to share them is really through Facebook and Instagram. 454 00:27:33.099 --> 00:27:36.509 And all those companies now have policies and they'll remove it. 455 00:27:36.869 --> 00:27:39.130 And sometimes they, a lot of them even will detect 456 00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:42.009 it through their AI. And then the other problem that 457 00:27:42.029 --> 00:27:44.390 we used to have was that people would post the 458 00:27:44.430 --> 00:27:47.950 revenge porn. Also, it would be posted on Pornhub and 459 00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:50.390 then it would be, it would show up in their 460 00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:55.400 Google results. And that no longer happens because Google now 461 00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.079 has policies. If for some reason, somebody's revenge porn is 462 00:28:01.180 --> 00:28:05.400 linked to on a Google search, they have policies where 463 00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:07.789 you can fill out a form and they'll remove it. 464 00:28:08.190 --> 00:28:11.509 If you take a nude selfie, you own that image. 465 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:15.009 But unfortunately, if it's a video that they took or 466 00:28:15.029 --> 00:28:17.539 a photo they took, you don't own it. So what 467 00:28:17.619 --> 00:28:20.200 can you do if that video is posted? 468 00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:24.579 So that's right. We own the copyright of all images 469 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.920 that we take. But if the offender took it with 470 00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:30.720 or without your knowledge, they technically would own the copyright. 471 00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:35.069 But them posting it is proof of an illegal activity. 472 00:28:35.670 --> 00:28:38.930 And especially if it's clearly made without a person's knowledge 473 00:28:38.990 --> 00:28:42.890 or permission, then that's not just unlawful surveillance, but it's 474 00:28:42.910 --> 00:28:47.400 also the dissemination of unlawful surveillance, which is multiple crimes. 475 00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:51.700 So There's several different things. Number one, you can report 476 00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:54.660 it to the police. You can get an order of protection. 477 00:28:56.180 --> 00:28:59.180 I know I'm really talking hard about orders of protection, 478 00:28:59.509 --> 00:29:02.549 but there are it's a same day thing where you 479 00:29:02.589 --> 00:29:06.089 can petition a court for an order protection. And within 480 00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:08.980 the day, you can have a temporary order protection that 481 00:29:09.019 --> 00:29:10.819 says that they need to leave you alone and that 482 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:13.680 they can't share your images with anybody else. And, and 483 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.240 there's also like legal services for people. But the other 484 00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:18.839 thing is the, there's the pragmatic thing of, I need 485 00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:21.799 to get that shit off the internet, which is, I mean, 486 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:24.559 it's first about finding where it is, which can be 487 00:29:25.059 --> 00:29:28.160 a task, but then even if you don't own the copyright, right. 488 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.549 Most websites, even if they're porn websites, don't really want 489 00:29:32.589 --> 00:29:37.589 to be peddling in non-consensual porn. So let's say it's 490 00:29:37.650 --> 00:29:40.250 up on Pornhub. I mean, they'll take it down. whether 491 00:29:40.269 --> 00:29:42.450 or not you own the copyright of it, just because 492 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:45.670 they don't want that on their website. And same with 493 00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:48.730 all big social media. They'll just take it down regardless 494 00:29:48.769 --> 00:29:49.710 of who owns it. 495 00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:54.259 That's really helpful. And your ex also contacted your friends 496 00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.839 and family and colleagues to spread harmful lies. What do 497 00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:03.180 you advise clients to do when an ex is repeatedly 498 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.740 contacting their friends, family, co-workers, or even their boss? 499 00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:16.200 Well, that can be really upsetting and disturbing for victims 500 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:20.089 because the narrative is hijacked by this person who hates them. 501 00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:24.190 And first thing I would say is, yes, that person 502 00:30:25.170 --> 00:30:28.869 is not reliable. And so all the people that that 503 00:30:28.910 --> 00:30:33.619 person is contacting to spread rumors about you, The very 504 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.140 fact that they're contacting your boss or your friends or 505 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:38.640 your family to say this shit makes it so that 506 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:42.220 they're not that believable in the first place. So I 507 00:30:42.259 --> 00:30:47.200 want to tell victims to not over-worry about the content 508 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:51.799 of the rumors because if one of my employees' exes 509 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.450 started contacting me and saying she was a pedophile and 510 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:58.630 saying the worst thing that they could about her, I'd 511 00:30:58.650 --> 00:31:03.440 be like, Like, you are not reliable because you hate 512 00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:07.859 her and have a vendetta. And it's so transparent that 513 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.680 you're just trying to destroy her. There's zero benefit to 514 00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:16.299 the community by you telling me this stuff. So I 515 00:31:16.339 --> 00:31:20.519 already don't believe you. That will be true of anybody 516

00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.380 of value in the victim's life that the offender is 517 00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:26.769 trying to reach out to. But when these rumors are 518 00:31:26.789 --> 00:31:29.430 being spread about you, it's really hard to keep that 519 00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:30.049 in mind. 520 00:31:30.069 --> 00:31:33.200 Have you ever had a client be fired because the boss. 521 00:31:37.539 --> 00:31:39.740 Believed some of the stuff and then just said, like, 522 00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:41.039 I don't want to be involved in this? 523 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.960 Yeah. I mean, one of my employees who's an incredible lawyer, 524 00:31:46.539 --> 00:31:50.069 she went to law school after this terrible breakup. She 525 00:31:50.109 --> 00:31:54.210 was a principal at a high school and her ex 526 00:31:54.470 --> 00:31:59.250 planted content on her work computer and then told the 527 00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:03.950 Department of Ed that she was sleeping with children's parents 528 00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:08.339 in the classroom. And that she had all this content. 529 00:32:08.619 --> 00:32:12.039 And then he spread pictures of her in lingerie to 530 00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:16.160 the New York Post. And they published them. She was 531 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.470 sent to the New York, we call it the rubber room. 532 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:22.829 She was put on administrative leave. They just straight up 533 00:32:23.170 --> 00:32:26.430 believed him. And none of it was founded. It was 534 00:32:26.589 --> 00:32:30.140 absolutely not founded. But the school just had this knee-jerk reaction. 535 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:33.460 We had a case where somebody worked at a law firm. 536 00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:39.740 And the ex- created like this dossier of all their 537 00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:44.119 text messages that made it look like she was cheating 538 00:32:44.180 --> 00:32:47.859 clients and padding the bill. She had a job offer 539 00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:51.400 revoked because of it. But in more and more states, 540 00:32:51.509 --> 00:32:55.730 like in New York, it's illegal to discriminate for housing 541 00:32:55.829 --> 00:33:00.549 or employment against crime victims. That includes victims of domestic violence. 542 00:33:00.829 --> 00:33:04.509 So when I have a situation where an offender is 543 00:33:04.569 --> 00:33:07.279 going to be going after a client of mine, I 544 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.559 have to get permission, draft an email to their boss 545 00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:16.410 and say, just so you are aware, I represent your employee. 546 00:33:16.690 --> 00:33:22.029 She's presently a crime victim and we need your help 547 00:33:22.650 --> 00:33:26.069 and we need you to help by making reasonable accommodations 548 00:33:26.509 --> 00:33:29.630 for her. And it already kind of then braces them 549 00:33:29.650 --> 00:33:36.009 to then recognize any incoming vitriol from a retaliatory ex 550 00:33:36.170 --> 00:33:39.009 as just that. And sometimes I'll just put them on 551 00:33:39.089 --> 00:33:42.420 notice and say, in the event that blah, blah, blah 552 00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:45.299 reaches out to the firm, please let me know because 553 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:46.799 this is further evidence of a crime. 554 00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:51.339 Unfortunately, this is way more common than people may assume. 555 00:33:51.380 --> 00:33:54.500 And so this information is so helpful. Can you explain 556 00:33:54.539 --> 00:33:59.839 the term swatting and how it's used as a harassment tactic? 557 00:34:00.859 --> 00:34:06.289 Swatting is so dangerous. So it's basically when a person 558 00:34:06.930 --> 00:34:14.010 calls 911 and fabricates a violent emergency. So what I 559 00:34:14.030 --> 00:34:17.610 would be doing right now is I would be calling 560 00:34:17.610 --> 00:34:22.670 911 and saying that Alex Cooper is at her home 561 00:34:23.130 --> 00:34:27.190 with an automatic weapon and has just shot her dog 562 00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:30.010 and is threatening to shoot other neighbors and is going 563 00:34:30.030 --> 00:34:32.730 to go to school and shoot it up. And then 564 00:34:32.829 --> 00:34:35.570 what happens is that a SWAT team then will storm 565 00:34:35.610 --> 00:34:40.579 your house with guns drawn. And there have been situations 566 00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:43.739 where people have been killed from that. It's fabricating an 567 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:45.840 emergency situation. 568 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:50.000 How does someone fight against this tactic? 569 00:34:50.449 --> 00:34:54.599 Oh man, it's hard. It's really hard because it's common 570 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:55.420 among gamers. 571 00:34:56.179 --> 00:34:56.619 Why? 572 00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:02.719 The person who swats wants to see the response. And 573 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.849 so if somebody is on Twitch live streaming a video 574 00:35:05.889 --> 00:35:09.130 game and then gets swatted, they can get swatted in 575 00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:14.449 real time while they're making the video. That's happened. I 576 00:35:14.489 --> 00:35:19.070 had a client who's ex- swatted her and he would 577 00:35:19.130 --> 00:35:23.909 call like the NYPD and the LAPD and say that 578 00:35:24.139 --> 00:35:27.460 she was impersonating her and say that she was coming 579 00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:29.539 to shoot them up. And then she would get visited. 580 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.119 She never got visited by like a SWAT team, but 581 00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:37.300 cops would come to her house. And so in those cases, we, 582 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.679 we recommend that if you can see it coming, it's 583 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:44.239 important to notify your local precinct. ahead of time. 584 00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.000 But isn't it illegal for this person to be calling 585 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:48.320 and making up these lies? 586 00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:51.699 Yes. In our case where our client was being swatted, 587

00:35:52.340 --> 00:35:56.389 her offender was sent to prison for five years under 588 00:35:56.610 --> 00:36:00.190 federal felonies for a hoax threat. Wow. 589 00:36:01.030 --> 00:36:05.260 In your experience, how has the rise of social media 590 00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:07.420 impacted your business? 591 00:36:07.699 --> 00:36:12.920 I mean, social media is in every nook and cranny 592 00:36:12.940 --> 00:36:16.099 and crevice of my business. Like there's no harassment or 593 00:36:16.179 --> 00:36:22.349 stalking or revenge porn crime that happens without social media. 594 00:36:22.769 --> 00:36:25.210 And then we represent a lot of people who've been 595 00:36:25.289 --> 00:36:30.030 catastrophically injured through social media or their children have. People 596 00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:35.039 who bought pills through Snap that were laced with fentanyl 597 00:36:35.139 --> 00:36:39.000 and then their child died. People who were radicalized on 598 00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:43.969 suicide forums and then purchased drugs poisons from Amazon. I mean, 599 00:36:43.989 --> 00:36:47.710 we do represent people of sexual assault, but even they 600 00:36:47.829 --> 00:36:51.699 are impacted by the internet because oftentimes they meet their 601 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:57.030 predator through a dating app or they try to alert, 602 00:36:57.369 --> 00:37:00.409 our clients try to alert people about the dangers of 603 00:37:00.469 --> 00:37:03.309 a predator and they use social media to do that. 604 00:37:03.369 --> 00:37:06.179 And then our client is sued for defamation. So there's 605 00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:08.880 really no part of my law firm that isn't impacted 606 00:37:08.900 --> 00:37:11.440 by social media. And social media, of course, has changed 607 00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:16.599 us as a people. Of course. Where we're not comfortable 608 00:37:16.699 --> 00:37:21.210 dealing with the discomfort of a strong emotion. If somebody 609 00:37:21.349 --> 00:37:25.389 is super upset because they just got dumped, often they'll 610 00:37:25.409 --> 00:37:29.030 take it out online, whether that's by saying hateful, harmful 611 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:33.909 stuff or posting images about your ex or texting them manically. 612 00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:38.880 We just don't have the ability to just tolerate raw 613 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:41.639 emotions like I think we used to. And so there's 614 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:47.099 just so much more content that gets produced from toxic relationships. 615 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:47.280 Totally. 616 00:37:47.300 --> 00:37:51.059 Totally. If there is one thing that you could leave 617 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:55.159 listeners with based on the hundreds of clients you've represented 618 00:37:55.219 --> 00:37:57.900 and what you've learned from all this, if someone's going 619 00:37:57.960 --> 00:37:59.940 through this, what would it be? 620 00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:05.059 Never worry alone. The hardest part of any sort of 621 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:10.730 crime that somebody is experiencing is the feeling that it's 622 00:38:10.829 --> 00:38:14.510 only you, that nobody else in your life has any 623 00:38:14.610 --> 00:38:19.030 inkling of what you're going through or has any experience 624 00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:21.610 with something similar. But the most important thing is just 625 00:38:21.670 --> 00:38:24.989 to tell somebody that you trust. And this is also 626 00:38:25.050 --> 00:38:27.769 true with kids who, we have a lot of kids 627 00:38:27.829 --> 00:38:31.960 who are being threatened by a stranger on the internet. 628 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:35.780 Maybe they were groomed and sent that person an image 629 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:39.380 and then the offender then blackmailed them for more images 630 00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:42.860 and then has put them in in fear of their 631 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:47.699 life or fear of their family's reputation, those situations escalate 632 00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:52.699 by people just suffering in silence. And so it's actually 633 00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:56.500 just a thing you have to get through and you 634 00:38:56.519 --> 00:39:00.780 get through it by making difficult, but strong decisions. 635 00:39:02.730 --> 00:39:05.570 I can't thank you enough. That is, I can already 636 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:09.579 feel how many people are going to connect with this 637 00:39:09.739 --> 00:39:12.199 and also feel, I wouldn't even use the word at ease, 638 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.800 but just feel so much more comforted and knowing the 639 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.340 way that you laid this out. Carrie is so, so helpful. 640 00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:22.030 And I absolutely everyone listening, please go to Carrie's website. 641 00:39:22.070 --> 00:39:23.190 I'll put it in the description. 642 00:39:23.210 --> 00:39:27.190 You know, Alex, you are so good at your job. 643 00:39:27.309 --> 00:39:31.539 I could just like, I could just talk to you forever. 644 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:33.780 And there's so many things about what we talked about 645 00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:37.599 that that no one has ever like pulled out before. 646 00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:40.820 So just thank you for being so talented. 647 00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:41.699 Oh my God. 648 00:39:41.780 --> 00:39:41.960 No. 649 00:39:42.099 --> 00:39:44.460 And thank you for opening up because I, I mean, 650 00:39:44.500 --> 00:39:47.619 I've learned through my personal journey to like being honest 651 00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:50.800 about what we've gone through, humanizes the experience and makes 652 00:39:50.860 --> 00:39:53.739 people feel way less alone. And so someone that they're 653 00:39:53.780 --> 00:39:55.989 listening to, like you that are like, Oh, she's a lawyer. 654 00:39:56.030 --> 00:39:57.469 What does she know? And it's like, Oh, she's gone 655 00:39:57.510 --> 00:40:00.230 through this and she's survived it and she's on the 656 00:40:00.250 --> 00:40:01.030 other side of it. 657 00:40:01.130 --> 00:40:01.429 So yeah. 658 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.570 Thank you for sharing your personal experience because I know 659 00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:07.389 that that can't always be easy, but it truly does 660 00:40:07.449 --> 00:40:08.909 make a difference. And I know these women are going 661 00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:12.670 to be like, bow down, Carrie. Thank you, Carrie. 662 00:40:13.050 --> 00:40:14.829 You're amazing. Thank you.