บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S01-E31-Leading with Heart and Strategy: Lessons from the Toughest Moments

if this is for me and if I am for them, 00:02:42.265 --> 00:02:44.345 for the CIO that they were looking for. 00:02:44.585 --> 00:02:52.605 So it started as a six-month secondment, an absolutely amazing opportunity to be able to grow. 00:02:53.345 --> 00:02:58.145 I was there for about six months and they ended up posting the position and 00:02:58.145 --> 00:03:03.505 I think it was a great match in my view and university view. 00:03:03.665 --> 00:03:10.145 I still had to go through the competition which I made it very clear that I want to win it. 00:03:10.245 --> 00:03:14.905 I want to go through the fair process and so did the university and I really appreciated that. 00:03:15.585 --> 00:03:19.945 Another thing that excited me about this opportunity was the ability to work 00:03:19.945 --> 00:03:25.925 with an executive team, which when you're in a larger university like SFU or even a midsize, 00:03:26.365 --> 00:03:32.265 you're a few layers beneath to be able to influence some really big decisions, 00:03:32.885 --> 00:03:34.745 and be able to contribute. 00:03:35.125 --> 00:03:39.065 And prior to this, when I was in private sector, in my consulting role, 00:03:39.225 --> 00:03:41.365 we often would work with the C-suite. 00:03:41.625 --> 00:03:46.365 So I missed that experience quite a bit and I felt I could leverage that and 00:03:46.365 --> 00:03:49.845 be able to build this out in a CIO role. 00:03:50.305 --> 00:03:53.265 So that worked really well. And the third one, which, 00:03:53.899 --> 00:03:57.539 might be news to both of you and the listeners as well. 00:03:58.059 --> 00:04:02.219 There was a path that I never took in my life, which was interior design. 00:04:02.519 --> 00:04:03.939 I went to interior design school. 00:04:04.359 --> 00:04:10.059 After six months, I left it because this device called computers was overly 00:04:10.059 --> 00:04:11.599 fascinating, exciting. 00:04:12.239 --> 00:04:16.079 And I often think about if I took that path where I would end up. 00:04:16.219 --> 00:04:20.479 So now when I get out of my office, design is everywhere. way. 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.799 Creativity is everywhere. I absolutely love it. 00:04:23.999 --> 00:04:27.939 That has less to do with it being CIO. It's more about the university context. 00:04:27.939 --> 00:04:30.219 And I absolutely love it. 00:04:31.304 --> 00:04:34.544 Thanks for that, Sandeep. And it's a great story. And I didn't know all of that. 00:04:34.664 --> 00:04:36.784 So I was glad to sort of hear it from your perspective. 00:04:37.124 --> 00:04:40.304 One thing that jumped out at me there is something that Dana and I have had 00:04:40.304 --> 00:04:44.864 conversations about and with others as well, is this notion of the C-suite. 00:04:45.244 --> 00:04:50.644 And, you know, going back 15, 20 years, there weren't really a lot of CIOs in 00:04:50.644 --> 00:04:52.584 higher education in Canada. Now there are. 00:04:53.264 --> 00:04:57.744 And the title is CIO. So you

would assume it's a C-suite position. 00:04:58.224 --> 00:05:02.124 And it's not always put in that C-suite. I'd say most of the time it's not, 00:05:02.244 --> 00:05:03.584 right? I think we've talked about this, Dana. 00:05:03.784 --> 00:05:08.764 I think UPI and Brandon, and maybe there's another one too that I always forget. 00:05:09.224 --> 00:05:13.044 But I think that's important. And it doesn't mean you don't have access to the 00:05:13.044 --> 00:05:16.364 C-suite, but you're not part of it. You know, in the U.S., they were called 00:05:16.364 --> 00:05:17.224 the President's Cabinet. 00:05:17.464 --> 00:05:20.704 And it's very different south of the border than it is north. 00:05:20.944 --> 00:05:22.064 So thanks for bringing that up. 00:05:22.604 --> 00:05:25.784 When you were talking there, Sandeep, and you spoke a little bit about interior 00:05:25.784 --> 00:05:33.504 design, It goes back to one of my most favorite poems that I have on the wall here from Robert Frost. 00:05:33.684 --> 00:05:36.704 Two roads diverged in the yellow wood and I took the one less trodden by and 00:05:36.704 --> 00:05:37.764 that has made all the difference. 00:05:38.024 --> 00:05:42.104 So you have taken the one less trodden by and we'll see if that has actually 00:05:42.104 --> 00:05:43.064 made all the difference. 00:05:43.204 --> 00:05:47.544 And which leads me to this, because you've often talked about wanting to leave 00:05:47.544 --> 00:05:49.004 the world better than you found it. 00:05:49.384 --> 00:05:54.184 So what's inspired you to pursue leadership and were there mentors or moments 00:05:54.184 --> 00:05:55.264 that shaped your direction? 00:05:56.357 --> 00:06:03.577 I think it comes from my personal, my own personal belief. I take responsibility very seriously. 00:06:03.897 --> 00:06:08.677 And this idea of duty, I'm a very loyal person to my family, 00:06:08.977 --> 00:06:12.637 to my friends, and to my professional network. 00:06:12.977 --> 00:06:20.317 So when someone is trusting me, and I think the concept of stewardship comes into play for me. 00:06:20.317 --> 00:06:26.517 Someone's trusting me with stewarding their life, their organization, 00:06:26.997 --> 00:06:28.657 their information systems. 00:06:28.937 --> 00:06:31.937 I take that responsibility very seriously. 00:06:32.257 --> 00:06:37.637 And a few years ago, I went through this coaching exercise where they asked 00:06:37.637 --> 00:06:39.197 us to think about a mantra. 00:06:39.717 --> 00:06:42.317 It took me almost a year. 00:06:43.397 --> 00:06:49.497 And you can get really crazy with attractive words. I did all that, 00:06:49.677 --> 00:06:51.817 went through vocabulary changes. 00:06:52.337 --> 00:06:56.837 And this statement in one of the books really stuck out for me. 00:06:57.097 --> 00:07:00.597 I want to leave this world a little better than I found it. 00:07:00.737 --> 00:07:05.497 And I try to apply that in the work that I do. 00:07:05.817 --> 00:07:09.937 And when you think about stewardship, it's also paying it forward. 00:07:10.517 --> 00:07:15.857 So this world is going to exist without me. I know that. 00:07:16.757 --> 00:07:22.217 I will exist without the world too. So I think finding that balance and when 00:07:22.217 --> 00:07:27.397 I came into this role or any role, someone stewarded this organization to bring it to this point. 00:07:28.216 --> 00:07:30.956 They did the best that they could. Now I'm going to do the same. 00:07:31.076 --> 00:07:34.796 And I'm going to leave that in a little better than I found it, 00:07:34.976 --> 00:07:38.836 in my view, and contribute and just pay it forward. 00:07:39.676 --> 00:07:43.856 Let's talk a little bit about leadership networks, because we've alluded to 00:07:43.856 --> 00:07:47.516 it in the introduction, and you've talked about it, you've sort of mentioned some of these things. 00:07:47.656 --> 00:07:50.136 So you're deeply connected across the sector, right? 00:07:50.296 --> 00:07:55.996 So whether that's Cucho in Canada, whether it's BCNet within your province or 00:07:55.996 --> 00:07:59.096 Educause, which is much more broad, you're also attached, I think, 00:07:59.156 --> 00:08:00.556 are working with provincial committees. 00:08:00.736 --> 00:08:03.716 So how have these networks shaped your leadership? 00:08:03.956 --> 00:08:07.396 And what do they give CIOs that they can't get inside their own institutions? 00:08:08.396 --> 00:08:12.996 Fantastic question. I've always believed in the power of people network. 00:08:14.076 --> 00:08:19.296 And these communities have really created that for me. And I've, 00:08:19.808 --> 00:08:24.108 You know, getting into a leadership position and often referred to as a management 00:08:24.108 --> 00:08:30.368 position, I took on a lot of development opportunities. And one of those really 00:08:30.368 --> 00:08:32.068 helped me understand my learning style. 00:08:32.488 --> 00:08:38.808 And that learning style is referred to what they call as social interpersonal learner. 00:08:39.408 --> 00:08:41.508 So I learn with people around me. 00:08:42.348 --> 00:08:48.048 And these communities from Couture to BCNAT to EduCourse really provided that 00:08:48.048 --> 00:08:54.428 social network for me. The wisdom that exists in those communities is absolutely phenomenal. 00:08:54.828 --> 00:08:59.688 And I often observed both of you present at conferences. 00:09:00.108 --> 00:09:04.808 I took notes. I had conversations during lunch breaks. 00:09:05.028 --> 00:09:10.168 And I picked on things that, for me, that was my way of learning. 00:09:10.668 --> 00:09:15.448 And then to be able to take that away, think through what my style is, 00:09:15.648 --> 00:09:19.368 how to adapt, how to apply. So a little bit of experimentation, 00:09:19.368 --> 00:09:22.688 but experimentation with a good foundation. 00:09:23.188 --> 00:09:27.468 And I think that's what those networks give you. And also to be able to say, 00:09:27.768

--> 00:09:32.108 hey, I tried to do this. Didn't really work out for me. 00:09:32.288 --> 00:09:35.468 Or thank you for inspiring me to take this leap. 00:09:35.788 --> 00:09:42.768 And here's what I got out of it. So to me, that network opened up some doors and mentorship. 00:09:43.988 --> 00:09:48.828 Sometimes it's informal mentorship. I still remember having a conversation. 00:09:49.068 --> 00:09:52.848 I told Dina about this. I'm not sure, boy, if I shared this with you, 00:09:53.448 --> 00:09:54.888 at one of the Cannes Heights. 00:09:55.665 --> 00:09:59.265 I was still at SFU. We were sitting down during lunch break. 00:09:59.905 --> 00:10:06.045 Trevor and Mark Humphries and I were sitting down and we were talking about exploring CIO role. 00:10:06.205 --> 00:10:09.445 And I wasn't sure. And they gave me this lecture. 00:10:10.125 --> 00:10:13.105 Probably took our entire lunchtime or longer. 00:10:13.645 --> 00:10:17.005 And they're like, okay, well, hold on a minute. Why are you doubting yourself? 00:10:17.245 --> 00:10:21.825 And it was a bit of an awakening in my view. 00:10:21.865 --> 00:10:25.465 And I don't know if they both remember that. I still remember that day that 00:10:25.465 --> 00:10:26.965 inspired me and pushed me. 00:10:27.505 --> 00:10:34.065 So these networks have some interesting spaces that are beyond the program that's 00:10:34.065 --> 00:10:35.265 listed at the conference. 00:10:35.805 --> 00:10:40.245 There are some people, when I got into my first CI role here at Emily Carr, 00:10:40.525 --> 00:10:46.605 reached out to me, email, text message saying, hey, I've got you. 00:10:47.005 --> 00:10:51.905 This is my number. Whatever you need, you need advice, they were there. 00:10:52.285 --> 00:10:59.325 And I think I wouldn't be, not I think I know, I wouldn't be here today if I 00:10:59.325 --> 00:11:00.945 didn't have those networks around me. 00:11:01.265 --> 00:11:04.645 And I'd like to build on that. I remember, hopefully you do. 00:11:04.785 --> 00:11:09.385 So I went to my last Cucho meeting, which happened to be hosted by you at Emily Carr. 00:11:09.845 --> 00:11:13.825 And before you said, actually a week before you said, hey, can we go out for a coffee? 00:11:14.305 --> 00:11:17.965 And I was like, hmm, this is going to be more than just coffee. 00:11:18.105 --> 00:11:20.685 I'm sure of it. you know and an hour and a 00:11:20.685 --> 00:11:23.565 half maybe two hours later I kind of left with that 00:11:23.565 --> 00:11:26.445 was a great conversation we had I won't go into all the things we talked 00:11:26.445 --> 00:11:29.505 about but that to me just 00:11:29.505 --> 00:11:34.165 was another example of you seeking other information and you're saying well 00:11:34.165 --> 00:11:37.885 you're leaving so I want to talk to you before you go but we never really left 00:11:37.885 --> 00:11:41.825 by the way but anyway that's that's another story so so I appreciated that call 00:11:41.825 --> 00:11:44.405 and you know you and I've had the opportunity to do some other things together 00:11:44.405 --> 00:11:46.505 in the past, and hopefully we will in the future. 00:11:47.245 --> 00:11:50.165 We talked earlier a little bit about the C-suite. 00:11:51.083 --> 00:11:55.283 And sometimes the C-suite is not sweet. And I think we're in one of those times 00:11:55.283 --> 00:12:00.803 right now, like Canadian universities are facing significant financial pressures. 00:12:01.705 --> 00:12:05.705 As a CIO, how do you balance the need for innovation and digital transformation 00:12:05.705 --> 00:12:08.985 with the real reality of constrained budgets? 00:12:09.285 --> 00:12:13.065 The C-suite is still sweet. We just don't want to get diabetic. 00:12:14.345 --> 00:12:20.665 That's the key. You know, tough times. And someone said this to me many years ago. 00:12:20.885 --> 00:12:26.885 I wish I had a diary keeping track of who said what, because there's so much wisdom in our network. 00:12:26.885 --> 00:12:32.985 And one of the things I've shared with both of you is as seasoned leaders leave 00:12:32.985 --> 00:12:38.405 our network, I really appreciate the wisdom and the experiences you two are capturing here, 00:12:38.605 --> 00:12:44.565 which other aspiring leaders and folks coming into our network can really leverage. 00:12:44.745 --> 00:12:49.765 I wish there was a podcast I had when I started as CIO. I would listen to this 00:12:49.765 --> 00:12:51.785 and really be able to onboard myself. 00:12:52.485 --> 00:12:57.185 Sorry, went a little different direction there. Financial pressures are definitely 00:12:57.185 --> 00:13:00.745 top of mind, and I think they come and go in waves. 00:13:01.145 --> 00:13:06.945 I started my career, my first job as an information security analyst in 2001, 00:13:06.945 --> 00:13:12.205 when almost everyone in my entire network was telling me I made the worst decision 00:13:12.205 --> 00:13:15.645 to pick a career in the dot-com era, 00:13:16.005 --> 00:13:17.465 where it was questionable. 00:13:17.845 --> 00:13:25.965 From that, we've seen different waves come around, and I'm not trying to diminish how difficult it is. 00:13:26.245 --> 00:13:30.845 But I think it's important. This is where we use this opportunity to really 00:13:30.845 --> 00:13:33.825 understand what is core to our mission. 00:13:34.245 --> 00:13:37.505 What are our crown jewels in a university? 00:13:38.545 --> 00:13:43.005 And what is not going to work is to say it's not my problem, 00:13:43.025 --> 00:13:45.605 it's someone else's problem in an organization. 00:13:45.945 --> 00:13:53.565 So our strategy has been to continue to partner and work with our peers in the 00:13:53.565 --> 00:13:59.845 organization and outside to first see what they are seeing as challenges. 00:14:00.045 --> 00:14:01.805 Sometimes you find commonalities. 00:14:02.185 --> 00:14:05.825 You know, application rationalization comes to mind right away. 00:14:06.954 --> 00:14:13.334 Which

I think a number of us are doing, we've taken, and this comes from one of my leaders. 00:14:13.394 --> 00:14:16.254 I have an amazing leadership team, amazing stuff. 00:14:16.794 --> 00:14:22.414 And he's been talking about strategic simplification. This is the time for us 00:14:22.414 --> 00:14:28.154 to think through what strategic simplification looks for Emily Carr University 00:14:28.154 --> 00:14:31.454 so we can deliver on our mission and balancing that innovation. 00:14:32.394 --> 00:14:36.114 And finding some efficiencies as well and when 00:14:36.114 --> 00:14:38.974 i talked about partnership with rps this is not 00:14:38.974 --> 00:14:42.274 my strategy is and some might argue 00:14:42.274 --> 00:14:48.054 differently is this is not the time for me to say hey told you so shouldn't 00:14:48.054 --> 00:14:52.174 have bought this solution it's costing us this much this is the time to say 00:14:52.174 --> 00:14:59.174 hey we're in a mess what are we going to do how do we build that and and some 00:14:59.174 --> 00:15:00.934 of your podcasts talk about trust. 00:15:01.214 --> 00:15:03.714 Trust is not built like a checklist. 00:15:04.374 --> 00:15:08.774 Trust is, and I will talk about one of my favorite books, it comes from that. 00:15:09.034 --> 00:15:11.914 It's like a bank balance. You have to build it up. 00:15:12.697 --> 00:15:15.597 And then there will be moments like what's happening right now. 00:15:15.737 --> 00:15:20.257 This is a moment to draw on that bank balance that you've built over time. 00:15:20.257 --> 00:15:22.937 But if you don't have one, you're going in the negative. 00:15:23.297 --> 00:15:28.697 And I think those organizations are going to have a tougher time with this financial situation. 00:15:29.217 --> 00:15:34.137 I also think that people like me, type A's, we like to do it all. 00:15:34.397 --> 00:15:37.577 So we have to manage our own expectations as well. 00:15:38.457 --> 00:15:43.037 And Dana knows this really well, having worked with us with the external review, 00:15:43.397 --> 00:15:48.877 we're going to really tighten our ability to say yes, but not now, 00:15:49.057 --> 00:15:51.477 and really create multi-year roadmaps. 00:15:52.157 --> 00:15:58.537 And the last piece that I'm going to share comes from a conversation my team 00:15:58.537 --> 00:16:00.437 was having yesterday, so very fresh. 00:16:00.657 --> 00:16:05.477 In these difficult times as well, it is also our job to create hope for our 00:16:05.477 --> 00:16:07.257 staff, for our campuses as well. 00:16:07.577 --> 00:16:13.737 Be transparent what's coming our way, but also keep the optimism up. 00:16:14.017 --> 00:16:19.357 They also have some good ideas. So we've reached out to our staff and other 00:16:19.357 --> 00:16:22.857 members as well say, look, we're in this situation. What do you think we should do? 00:16:23.177 --> 00:16:25.517 Do you have some things that we haven't thought through? 00:16:26.197 --> 00:16:32.977 They come up with some amazing ideas, particularly when we talk about them collaborating with each other. 00:16:33.277 --> 00:16:36.277 And we're in the midst of doing a data center migration. 00:16:36.877 --> 00:16:39.597 Very exciting. Second one in 13 months. 00:16:40.377 --> 00:16:43.997 And the team is doing the heavy lift. 00:16:44.197 --> 00:16:50.677 And I was noticing in one of the channels yesterday, one of our team leads messaged 00:16:50.677 --> 00:16:54.697 everyone saying, hey, guys, I'm just hanging out in the corner. 00:16:54.997 --> 00:17:00.037 Don't mind me. I'm not directly in this project. But what I'm doing is as you 00:17:00.037 --> 00:17:03.837 guys interact and provide updates on these VMs or configurations, 00:17:03.857 --> 00:17:06.257 I'm putting that in our technical handbook. 00:17:06.954 --> 00:17:10.214 So at the end of the project, you will have your configuration, 00:17:10.214 --> 00:17:12.274 you'll have all this documented. 00:17:13.094 --> 00:17:16.654 It's indirectly related to his job, but they're all stepping up. 00:17:16.794 --> 00:17:20.254 They're all trying to say, well, look, we're going to have to do this with what we have. 00:17:20.414 --> 00:17:23.054 So I'm super inspired by my own 00:17:23.054 --> 00:17:32.414 team and feeling very humble that we are making a do with what we have. 00:17:32.414 --> 00:17:37.534 But staying together and working together is absolutely the key. 00:17:38.334 --> 00:17:41.694 Awesome. Just before Dana picks up on the next question, I, you know, 00:17:41.794 --> 00:17:46.434 I want to just say, I really appreciate your sort of positive approach to this. 00:17:46.534 --> 00:17:50.474 And it's especially around that piece around the financial challenges that, 00:17:51.154 --> 00:17:52.314 you know, we were talking about there. 00:17:53.574 --> 00:17:56.414 I've always had that approach through higher ed, right? That things go in waves. 00:17:56.414 --> 00:17:59.774 I've been around long enough that I, you know, certainly things do go in waves. 00:17:59.774 --> 00:18:03.474 I've lived through Ray Days in Ontario. oh, I lost 10% of my staff one year 00:18:03.474 --> 00:18:05.874 because the finances weren't there. 00:18:06.054 --> 00:18:10.574 But, you know, I'm going to say I have never seen it like it is now, right? 00:18:10.734 --> 00:18:13.574 And so, you know, if you want to pick up some metaphor, it's like, 00:18:13.734 --> 00:18:16.814 well, you know, we're going to try to get another five years out of the roof 00:18:16.814 --> 00:18:18.494 before we re-shingle it. 00:18:18.614 --> 00:18:23.974 Or, you know, that TV, that extra TV we have in the house isn't going to work for the next few years. 00:18:24.034 --> 00:18:26.974 So we all got to cram into the family room and watch one TV and decide whether 00:18:26.974 --> 00:18:28.694 we're going to watch the hockey game or something else. 00:18:30.114 --> 00:18:35.634 Those are all fine. They come to an end. But now it feels,

certainly in Ontario, 00:18:35.954 --> 00:18:40.414 it feels like the foundation is broken and that's expensive to fix. 00:18:40.834 --> 00:18:45.654 And it's going to have all kinds of other ramifications. So I'm going to take 00:18:45.654 --> 00:18:48.794 what you said and I'm going to enjoy it and I'm going to embrace the positive 00:18:48.794 --> 00:18:52.194 and say we're going to get through this and I'll cross my fingers and I hope 00:18:52.194 --> 00:18:53.674 it does get better on the other side. 00:18:53.934 --> 00:18:59.574 We have to do more than hope. We still have to work hard, but I take your point really, really well. 00:19:00.254 --> 00:19:05.234 There is no wishing well where I throw a penny. It's going to solve the problem. 00:19:06.594 --> 00:19:10.514 But we have to stay on the positive when we work hard. 00:19:10.774 --> 00:19:15.614 We cannot say, keep working and doom and gloom is happening still. 00:19:16.174 --> 00:19:20.634 Yeah, absolutely. And I hear your point 100%. And that's why I work with people 00:19:20.634 --> 00:19:24.374 who are a little bit more realistic than I am when I am overly optimistic. 00:19:25.994 --> 00:19:29.174 Don't ever lose that, though. Don't ever lose that. Awesome. 00:19:29.254 --> 00:19:32.314 Over to you, Dana. There's a couple of things that came out in that whole discussion. 00:19:32.474 --> 00:19:35.434 Hope is not a strategy. One of my colleagues used to remind me of that. 00:19:36.914 --> 00:19:39.714 And particularly the metaphor that you just used there, Beau, 00:19:40.034 --> 00:19:43.514 about you can't fix the foundation while the house is sitting on it. 00:19:43.794 --> 00:19:47.214 And it's true. You can, but it's very, very difficult. 00:19:47.414 --> 00:19:52.954 And I think those universities or colleges or higher ed institutions who actually 00:19:52.954 --> 00:19:54.654 look at the foundation and say, you know what? 00:19:54.854 --> 00:19:58.754 We should build another foundation and move some of this onto it. 00:19:59.194 --> 00:20:04.334 Maybe leave some other things and maybe appreciate and come at it at a different 00:20:04.334 --> 00:20:09.554 angle. Those are very maybe provocative and those are really hard things to do. 00:20:09.854 --> 00:20:14.814 I'm just not too sure how many are going to actually go back to that core mission 00:20:14.814 --> 00:20:16.254 and maybe rethink your foundation. 00:20:17.253 --> 00:20:21.493 I can only imagine the comments that might come out of that. But anyways, we'll see. 00:20:22.513 --> 00:20:26.353 Let's kind of move to something else. Let's talk about Cuccio. 00:20:26.673 --> 00:20:30.553 You've been involved for years and the leadership development program has become 00:20:30.553 --> 00:20:32.633 a real pipeline for emerging leaders. 00:20:32.893 --> 00:20:38.473 So what do you think makes that LDP effective and what do participants gain 00:20:38.473 --> 00:20:40.573 just beyond the whole curriculum? 00:20:41.433 --> 00:20:47.053 What a fantastic question. When I was going through my aspiring CIO journey, 00:20:48.213 --> 00:20:50.033 LDP didn't exist. I wish it did. 00:20:50.313 --> 00:20:55.973 And I think it's such a wonderful gift from seasoned leaders to share their 00:20:55.973 --> 00:20:57.933 experiences as they create this program. 00:20:59.113 --> 00:21:04.373 I think what's worked as having access to this program is I built my leadership team. 00:21:04.533 --> 00:21:12.393 So my leaders have gone through this program where they saw not everyone sees CIO as their next role. 00:21:12.633 --> 00:21:16.453 As well. So, you know, you have to, it's not a checklist. 00:21:16.833 --> 00:21:21.013 You know, there's no race. If everyone in your leadership team goes through 00:21:21.013 --> 00:21:22.933 this and finding that right fit. 00:21:23.113 --> 00:21:29.093 So the ones that are aspiring to be in that space. And I think there's a second piece to that. 00:21:29.293 --> 00:21:34.433 Even if you're not aspiring and you're looking to work closely with your CIO, 00:21:34.573 --> 00:21:40.493 this is a fantastic program to be able to see at the altitude that they work at. 00:21:41.053 --> 00:21:47.253 So that's definitely one big benefit. The second one is, I think often... 00:21:47.816 --> 00:21:52.636 We forget how the role of a CIO has changed in the last few years. 00:21:52.716 --> 00:21:56.396 Bo, you talked about sort of the C-suite and the executive presence. 00:21:57.216 --> 00:22:00.716 A number of CIOs, including myself, now report to the president. 00:22:00.956 --> 00:22:05.396 It is very different to be a CIO that reports to the president. 00:22:05.516 --> 00:22:10.836 And I've learned this recently, to a CIO who reports to VP Finance. 00:22:11.556 --> 00:22:16.076 Altitude is different. Priorities are different. Styles are different as well. 00:22:16.076 --> 00:22:21.276 So I think this program really equips you with some foundational capabilities 00:22:21.276 --> 00:22:26.476 that probably you haven't understood or, you know, through the career path that 00:22:26.476 --> 00:22:29.376 you've come along and they were not built. 00:22:29.776 --> 00:22:34.256 And this one, someone else helped me understand. 00:22:34.496 --> 00:22:41.136 It didn't naturally occur to me is this idea of an identity boost program. 00:22:41.758 --> 00:22:46.878 A number of us, at one point, I was one of them, did not see myself. 00:22:47.538 --> 00:22:51.158 I've never felt a doubt because being a woman, that was an issue. 00:22:51.418 --> 00:22:55.358 That never occurred to me, I'll be very honest. But I just have a self-doubt 00:22:55.358 --> 00:23:03.838 as a person, as a human being, if I was ready to be a leader at that level in so many ways. 00:23:03.838 --> 00:23:09.018 So I think from that place, this program really helps you unpack. 00:23:09.758 --> 00:23:14.138 Connects you with other leaders who also go through that space of self-doubt, 00:23:14.478 -->

00:23:20.598 building the confidence and creating these what I call safe, small spaces. 00:23:21.298 --> 00:23:26.778 I'm a very obvious, an extrovert. Don't have a problem going to a stranger, 00:23:27.098 --> 00:23:29.218 having a conversation. That's not for everybody. 00:23:29.958 --> 00:23:33.798 And I think going through this program, it gets you comfortable. 00:23:34.258 --> 00:23:38.018 This program is not changing introverts to extroverts or the other way around. 00:23:38.218 --> 00:23:42.198 It gets you comfortable in that space to be able to communicate, 00:23:42.198 --> 00:23:47.218 to build your own networks as well, which I think is very important. 00:23:47.218 --> 00:23:52.218 And then lastly, talking about, going back to my earlier first point around 00:23:52.218 --> 00:23:59.178 how CIO's roles changed, there's also a shift in terms of what organizations 00:23:59.178 --> 00:24:01.098 are looking for in the CIO. 00:24:01.318 --> 00:24:07.538 These are not folks who are, I think, experience and skills in managing infrastructure 00:24:07.538 --> 00:24:10.998 and applications and the technical pieces is absolutely important. 00:24:11.758 --> 00:24:17.438 But on top of that, there's an expectation for CIOs to be people leaders, 00:24:17.458 --> 00:24:19.118 to be able to influence people. 00:24:20.035 --> 00:24:24.455 Build their own teams and influence not just C-suites, but your stakeholders, 00:24:24.815 --> 00:24:28.455 working with your bargaining units, understanding those elements, 00:24:28.655 --> 00:24:32.055 understanding policy risk, which I think, 00:24:32.535 --> 00:24:37.475 again, technology is still a very young thing for this planet. 00:24:37.475 --> 00:24:41.795 I think we're building it out, but I feel that's an evolution and these programs 00:24:41.795 --> 00:24:46.155 really help build those leaders with the evolving role of the CIR. 00:24:46.675 --> 00:24:51.575 You've also been active in Educause, and they offer programs and leadership 00:24:51.575 --> 00:24:53.275 programs, management programs. 00:24:53.455 --> 00:24:57.355 But, you know, for me, the networking is often the real magic that happens there. 00:24:57.495 --> 00:25:01.995 And so what does Educause do well in building community and how can the Canadian 00:25:01.995 --> 00:25:03.495 CIOs get the most out of that? 00:25:03.975 --> 00:25:06.175 Another great question. My love 00:25:06.175 --> 00:25:12.075 for these communities is probably coming through in my responses as well. 00:25:12.215 --> 00:25:14.575 And Educause is another one of those communities. 00:25:15.275 --> 00:25:23.055 There are three aspects that I've found incredibly powerful in my role in my leadership journey. 00:25:23.375 --> 00:25:29.535 I think the first one is the ecosystems that we have within our spaces. 00:25:29.535 --> 00:25:35.015 One starts with your own campus and then it goes out to your province and national. 00:25:35.595 --> 00:25:39.135 What EDUCOS does is it brings that global view. 00:25:39.715 --> 00:25:41.355 Talking about financial pressures, 00:25:42.235 --> 00:25:46.855 BC is not the only one. Canada is not the only one. You see this. 00:25:47.915 --> 00:25:51.195 Way for really happening across the world as well. 00:25:51.835 --> 00:25:56.915 And to be able to see those trends at a global level as well, 00:25:57.055 --> 00:26:01.815 I find some of the research that Educause does and hearing from those recent 00:26:01.815 --> 00:26:04.395 experiences is quite powerful. 00:26:05.155 --> 00:26:11.295 The second one is, you probably know, there are only four art and design universities 00:26:11.295 --> 00:26:17.815 in Canada, Emily Carr University being one of them, and rated number one out of those. 00:26:18.155 --> 00:26:22.375 We do compete, but we don't compete. We collaborate. 00:26:23.475 --> 00:26:30.255 But just having an ecosystem of four really limits our view in terms of possibilities. 00:26:30.695 --> 00:26:35.855 And there is a larger community of art and design universities in the US, in UK. 00:26:36.415 --> 00:26:41.375 So Educause really opens up the door for us to be able to look at some of the 00:26:41.375 --> 00:26:42.895 spaces that exist in there. 00:26:43.575 --> 00:26:49.975 And lastly, what I found fascinating, and I learned that in my experience with 00:26:49.975 --> 00:26:53.335 Educause, on that note, I'm going to do a little plug. 00:26:54.075 --> 00:26:59.855 Educause has been very active globally, and I do think that we need more Canadian 00:26:59.855 --> 00:27:02.755 presence there for this third reason. 00:27:03.175 --> 00:27:07.915 Most of the products that we use, and talking about platforms, 00:27:08.135 --> 00:27:11.335 products, services, they're primarily built for the U.S. 00:27:11.455 --> 00:27:17.715 Market. And often what we are having to do as CIOs, take those products, 00:27:18.055 --> 00:27:22.095 do customizations, and make them work. 00:27:22.595 --> 00:27:28.235 What Educause does is provides us a platform to work with their corporate partners. 00:27:28.635 --> 00:27:32.835 And corporate partners have membership to Educause, other members as well. 00:27:32.955 --> 00:27:38.095 And they create spaces where they can collaborate with universities and colleges 00:27:38.095 --> 00:27:42.315 and understand their needs. And I do think we need Canada there to be able to 00:27:42.315 --> 00:27:44.815 have a voice, to advocate for ourselves. 00:27:45.175 --> 00:27:50.095 Could we have Canadian roadmaps for the products that they're building so that. 00:27:50.949 --> 00:27:55.509 We are not taking on the technical debt. That becomes problematic. 00:27:55.509 --> 00:27:58.149 And one of your podcasts, you talk about technical debt. 00:27:58.669 --> 00:28:04.529 It is crazy the layers that we build for customization, for payroll, 00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:09.609 to some of the needs that we have, which are quite different compared to these products. 00:28:09.769 -->

00:28:15.149 So I feel for these three reasons, Educause is a great place for us to have 00:28:15.149 --> 00:28:16.689 influence and advocacy. 00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:23.009 And I think it's a win-win. The corporates also want that. They want products that work for us. 00:28:23.389 --> 00:28:27.569 And wouldn't it be great if we could figure out a way to do it together? 00:28:28.149 --> 00:28:32.129 I don't know how many times this conversation has probably happened either at 00:28:32.129 --> 00:28:35.949 a Cuccio meeting or maybe in an area where we had adult beverages afterwards 00:28:35.949 --> 00:28:39.729 about the whole university and vendor relationships. 00:28:39.929 --> 00:28:45.989 And maybe down the road, Beau and I will take that on as a potential podcast, but we'll see. 00:28:46.949 --> 00:28:50.909 You've been a really strong supporter of emerging leaders through Cuccio and 00:28:50.909 --> 00:28:53.509 Educause and the BC CIO community. 00:28:53.949 --> 00:28:57.069 So what does good mentorship look like to you? 00:28:57.409 --> 00:29:01.049 And what advice do you give people who want to step into leadership, 00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:06.109 but they really aren't sure where to begin? Powerful question. 00:29:08.249 --> 00:29:13.329 I think it's okay to have your own definition of mentorship. 00:29:14.029 --> 00:29:17.569 I'm going to go back to my earlier comment around learning styles. 00:29:17.909 --> 00:29:20.969 People learn differently. People experience things differently. 00:29:22.209 --> 00:29:29.369 What has worked for me in terms of mentorship is really this notion of investing 00:29:29.369 --> 00:29:34.349 in yourself with someone that you feel safe with while you sharpen your soul. 00:29:35.331 --> 00:29:40.431 You need that guidance. You need someone holding your hand when you need it 00:29:40.431 --> 00:29:46.451 and be able to get the best that you can from the potential that you have. 00:29:46.671 --> 00:29:50.411 So it is a polishing exercise in my view. 00:29:50.771 --> 00:29:56.411 And that polishing can come in so many ways. How to get started. 00:29:57.711 --> 00:30:04.631 The first step is always the harder one. So one way I've encouraged others to 00:30:04.631 --> 00:30:09.611 take that first step is when you go to a conference and you see someone speak, 00:30:09.811 --> 00:30:13.231 take a moment, reach out to them, have a little chat with them. 00:30:13.331 --> 00:30:17.711 It's not a big leap if you haven't done it before. 00:30:18.531 --> 00:30:21.951 It's a great way to build a connection. You're in person as well. 00:30:22.511 --> 00:30:27.911 Some people have also reached out after either seeing an online presentation 00:30:27.911 --> 00:30:35.131 or a conversation or a podcast like this and say, hey, I'm very intrigued by what you were saying. 00:30:35.371 --> 00:30:39.531 Could we have a chat? And if that's your comfort level, feel free to do that. 00:30:39.531 --> 00:30:46.231 When I do get some of those invites, I always respond and I quite enjoy it. 00:30:46.891 --> 00:30:50.571 The third one I would say is when 00:30:50.571 --> 00:30:53.371 you do get into that space where you 00:30:53.371 --> 00:30:56.351 found the connection with a mentor keep a regular 00:30:56.351 --> 00:30:59.691 cadence and and it's up 00:30:59.691 --> 00:31:02.551 to the mentee to put together a plan 00:31:02.551 --> 00:31:06.551 of what they want to get out of that exercise the mentor most 00:31:06.551 --> 00:31:11.251 mentors that I speak with are there they will create the time they will create 00:31:11.251 --> 00:31:17.291 the energy especially in our culture community BCNAC community that's how people 00:31:17.291 --> 00:31:22.111 spend so much time with me if i had to add that up i'll probably end up being 00:31:22.111 --> 00:31:25.891 few years so i'm super thankful and the last one is. 00:31:26.851 --> 00:31:32.531 If you have received mentorship from somebody, pay it forward a few times. 00:31:32.731 --> 00:31:35.931 Not just you got it from one and you're giving it to another. 00:31:36.771 --> 00:31:42.131 Multiply it. And if you see somebody who you think hasn't reached out to you 00:31:42.131 --> 00:31:45.491 for whatever reason, do something what Gaylene did for me. 00:31:46.011 --> 00:31:51.491 Gaylene and I bumped into each other and we had sort of known each other from 00:31:51.491 --> 00:31:55.611 distance and we bumped into each other at the airport in Toronto as we were 00:31:55.611 --> 00:31:59.691 both going to edu course and we were chit-chatting, I was at SFU, and she goes, hey, 00:31:59.811 --> 00:32:03.191 I think here's somebody I would love to mentor. I'm like, what? What? 00:32:03.771 --> 00:32:07.791 Why would you want to do that? And that was just such a compliment, 00:32:07.791 --> 00:32:10.491 and I was blown away by her generosity. 00:32:11.171 --> 00:32:14.071 And so I'll encourage mentors to do that as well. 00:32:14.331 --> 00:32:17.331 So let me ask you a little bit about cross-sector experience. 00:32:17.571 --> 00:32:20.231 And you spent a decade in the private sector before higher ed, 00:32:20.311 --> 00:32:22.471 and how did that shape your approach to leadership? 00:32:22.631 --> 00:32:26.231 And how does that perspective help you at the board, maybe the board table or 00:32:26.231 --> 00:32:28.011 in sector-wide conversations? 00:32:28.891 --> 00:32:35.051 Private versus public. Sometimes we often say one of them is the dark side. 00:32:35.071 --> 00:32:38.431 I've experienced both. I think there are different shades of gray. 00:32:38.731 --> 00:32:42.031 I've learned a lot from private sector. One, discipline. 00:32:43.211 --> 00:32:47.671 And discipline, particularly around investing in yourself and in your people. 00:32:47.931 --> 00:32:53.571 I still remember For my onboarding exercise with HP, Hitler Packard, 00:32:53.891 --> 00:32:57.811 they did not put me on a single assignment for the first three months.

00:32:57.811 --> 00:33:00.031 It was all about training and investment. 00:33:01.069 --> 00:33:04.809 And, oh, my God, at the end of three months, I felt super confident. 00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:10.309 It was phenomenal. So I think we certainly I've tried to build learning and 00:33:10.309 --> 00:33:13.569 development programs, having gone through that for my team. 00:33:13.809 --> 00:33:17.169 So the discipline of investing in ourselves, so important. 00:33:18.049 --> 00:33:25.409 Second, I think so important to have the ability to communicate well with senior leadership. 00:33:25.409 --> 00:33:34.069 There is a different phenomena how that's an expectation from all managers and 00:33:34.069 --> 00:33:37.149 leaders in an organization, no matter how many layers there are. 00:33:37.349 --> 00:33:42.809 So I learned a lot to be able to communicate with C-suite and other executives. 00:33:42.809 --> 00:33:47.629 And the last one, which I think might be very appropriate in today's times, 00:33:47.689 --> 00:33:52.609 is that fiscal prudence, financial responsibility. 00:33:53.089 --> 00:33:58.269 As stewards of units, departments, or portfolios that we are, 00:33:58.909 --> 00:34:05.529 holding that tightly and building that right is going to be so important. 00:34:05.529 --> 00:34:11.469 And when that help does arrive for funding or whatever, I really hope it goes 00:34:11.469 --> 00:34:16.309 to folks who are taking it seriously, because that's our job, to steward it well. 00:34:17.509 --> 00:34:20.729 That's an excellent point. We probably could dig deeper into that. 00:34:20.869 --> 00:34:24.589 But I think you and I, we've talked about this as a group probably in the past, 00:34:24.729 --> 00:34:28.929 was, you know, it's about rewarding behaviors, which is very common in private sector. 00:34:29.449 --> 00:34:33.669 I'm not saying it's not common in higher ed, but rewarding those behaviors that 00:34:33.669 --> 00:34:36.689 are moving the place forward is pretty common in private sector. 00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:40.689 You treat leadership development as a discipline, as you just spoke about, 00:34:40.749 --> 00:34:42.209 and not as an afterthought. 00:34:42.489 --> 00:34:47.649 So what routines or habits or communities keep you growing as a leader? 00:34:47.909 --> 00:34:51.849 You probably know the trend by now. I either say three to five things, 00:34:52.049 --> 00:34:54.149 so I'm going to stick to three. Yeah. 00:34:55.487 --> 00:35:01.847 I plan ahead and I started doing this when I got into my director role. I'll be very honest. 00:35:02.487 --> 00:35:08.487 I could not be successful if I did not plan my month or my week appropriately. 00:35:08.847 --> 00:35:13.927 So this is not about putting meetings in your calendars. It's about what meetings 00:35:13.927 --> 00:35:16.827 to put your calendars and what spaces you need to create. 00:35:17.107 --> 00:35:22.487 So I have a monthly plan, which are monthly goals, which I then put together 00:35:22.487 --> 00:35:27.327 a list on a weekly basis. What do I need to do to be able to deliver on that? 00:35:27.507 --> 00:35:32.987 Which aligns with my report to my president, what the expectations are. 00:35:33.167 --> 00:35:36.967 So I spend quite a bit of time Sunday afternoons. That's what I do. 00:35:36.987 --> 00:35:38.327 So I'm ready for the week. 00:35:39.027 --> 00:35:46.067 The second one is really spending the time to look at how much your calendar 00:35:46.067 --> 00:35:50.287 is invested or your time in spending time with people. 00:35:50.567 --> 00:35:56.547 How much time? So I track if I'm mentoring somebody in my calendar over the year, 00:35:56.727 --> 00:36:01.207 how much time am I spending to do that internally or externally versus projects 00:36:01.207 --> 00:36:05.727 versus collaboration and also reaching out to your mentors. 00:36:06.027 --> 00:36:10.327 So how much time am I putting towards myself to be able to do my job really well? 00:36:10.987 --> 00:36:16.867 And lastly, taking some time to reflect. So I do a year reflection every year 00:36:16.867 --> 00:36:20.547 for the last maybe six or seven years. 00:36:20.547 --> 00:36:26.527 And I've learned a lot where I've overcommitted or where I haven't organized 00:36:26.527 --> 00:36:29.587 myself well or the things that are working really well keep. 00:36:30.362 --> 00:36:35.102 Doing, though, one of those things is I write the way I process things. 00:36:35.302 --> 00:36:39.742 I actually have a notebook all the time with me and I write, 00:36:39.962 --> 00:36:43.182 helps me process, helps me also listen. 00:36:43.422 --> 00:36:47.882 Because when I'm not right, if I'm writing, I'm not constantly thinking about 00:36:47.882 --> 00:36:49.462 responding to that question. 00:36:49.862 --> 00:36:54.182 So those habits have really been helpful. That's great, Sandeep. 00:36:54.262 --> 00:36:57.442 And I think, you know, this is fantastic where it's going, because I think this 00:36:57.442 --> 00:37:01.442 is exactly what Dana and I wanted to put together in a podcast to get to our 00:37:01.442 --> 00:37:04.622 community, right, so that they can hear it. And I think you're giving a lot of really good advice. 00:37:05.062 --> 00:37:09.242 So I think what we're going to do now is we're going to wrap up with our sort of rapid fire section. 00:37:09.722 --> 00:37:12.782 We've got five or six questions here that we're going to give you and just sort 00:37:12.782 --> 00:37:13.982 of snappy answers to them. 00:37:14.302 --> 00:37:16.922 And I think we'll go back and forth between Dana and I asking them. 00:37:17.002 --> 00:37:18.122 So I'll grab the first one. 00:37:18.342 --> 00:37:23.982 So in terms of advice for CIOs who want to build stronger networks or or maybe 00:37:23.982 --> 00:37:26.902 want to prepare for future board service, what would you say? 00:37:27.122 --> 00:37:30.922 Join a committee, one on your campus and one outside your campus. 00:37:31.142 -->

00:37:35.762 What do you think is the most underrated leadership skill? Relationship building. 00:37:36.282 --> 00:37:39.442 And what's one mistake CIOs make when trying to build networks? 00:37:39.882 --> 00:37:44.122 Making it transactional. So you want, it's not a checklist. 00:37:44.762 --> 00:37:46.942 It's a long-term relationship. 00:37:47.682 --> 00:37:52.202 One change you'd make to how higher ed develops future CIOs? 00:37:52.742 --> 00:37:57.722 I think this idea of sponsorship beyond your campuses. 00:37:58.042 --> 00:38:00.882 So if you're growing your leaders, they don't need to grow on your campus. 00:38:01.142 --> 00:38:02.262 They can grow in our community. 00:38:03.042 --> 00:38:05.742 And what do you enjoy most when you're not leading something? 00:38:06.759 --> 00:38:10.719 I absolutely enjoy watching others lead. I love it. 00:38:11.279 --> 00:38:15.439 And finally, what book are you reading now, or what book would you suggest for 00:38:15.439 --> 00:38:17.879 CIOs? I'm going to have two. 00:38:18.659 --> 00:38:22.659 One is Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Most Influential People. 00:38:23.219 --> 00:38:26.459 My first book that I bought, and I still go back to it. 00:38:26.839 --> 00:38:34.079 Absolutely love it. And the second one is a little bit more philosophical, you could say. 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:40.459 It's called living a life that matters it's from Harold Kushner I believe that's 00:38:40.459 --> 00:38:45.619 the author and I absolutely love it it talks about sort of the inner you that 00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:51.699 you take to work you take it everywhere that you are and how do you find meaning in. 00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.680 What you do in every way. And I absolutely love it. 00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:59.620 I love this list that we're getting here, Dana, because the books are all over 00:38:59.620 --> 00:39:02.920 the place and they all have amazing meanings. 00:39:03.180 --> 00:39:07.020 And so I'm going to be stuck reading stuff for like years to come now. 00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:10.520 And it's not only that, everybody's answering it, not like, oh, 00:39:10.580 --> 00:39:13.740 here's a book. The book means something to somebody. 00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:19.300 And I love the idea that you said, the book's been with you for a long time. 00:39:19.420 --> 00:39:22.260 And that one that you mentioned about Steve Cullen, like it's right here. 00:39:22.340 --> 00:39:25.520 It's sitting right beside me. I don't know when I read it, but it's still there. 00:39:26.220 --> 00:39:29.600 You know, Sandeep, we want to thank you for joining us. You know, 00:39:29.700 --> 00:39:33.660 your journey from secondment to a CIO and your commitment to building leaders 00:39:33.660 --> 00:39:38.420 around you is exactly the kind of story our listeners need to hear when they're 00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:40.880 thinking about their own development and the power of community. 00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:44.540 And thanks so much, Sandeep, for all of these nuggets. I mean, 00:39:44.700 --> 00:39:48.660 I'm just looking down at my list of notes here and I heard things like strategic 00:39:48.660 --> 00:39:50.560 simplification. I just love that. 00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:54.400 Pay it forward. You said it a couple of times and it's so important. 00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:59.060 And, you know, you talked about how you experimented with a good foundation. 00:39:59.060 --> 00:40:04.000 And I always love those metaphors when you talk about foundations and stuff. So that's great. 00:40:04.180 --> 00:40:07.240 And, you know, for CIOs that are listening, you know, take Sandeep's advice, 00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:11.100 you know, build your networks early, nurture them, invest in leadership development 00:40:11.100 --> 00:40:13.920 and surround yourself with people who challenge and support you. 00:40:14.300 --> 00:40:17.740 And as always, if you've got feedback, questions or stories of your own, 00:40:17.740 --> 00:40:24.600 drop us a line at feedback at bytes of experience.ca that's b-y-t-e-s of experience.ca 00:40:24.600 --> 00:40:32.660 or visit us at bytes of experience.ca special thanks to pixabee and the grand project for the music.