บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ BPS 463: The Rodriguez List: How to Make Movies with What You Already Have with Aaron Kaufman & Brian Levin

it's sort of, you know, morphed into 71 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.919 something else and then you know, agents managers were calling 72 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:03.080 him and saying, hey, you know, what else do you 73 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:05.479 have And they'd be basically saying, you know, because you 74 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:07.919 guys are actually out there doing stuff and it was 75 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:09.719 a great way to you know, to uh to find 76 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.199 out who's doing stuff and you know, and if they're 77 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:16.439 able to get a network and able to get an audience, 78 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:17.959 imagine what they could do if they had a little 79 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:18.720 money behind them. 80 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:20.199 Yeah, exactly. 81 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.199 So you know, just to go to you now, Aaron, 82 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:26.839 you know, how did you get started in the film industry. 83 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:27.480 Well, I'm a. 84 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:29.480 Little older, so there was no uh, there was no 85 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:34.240 YouTube at the time. But my first job in entertainment 86 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:38.079 was working at working for Chris Blackwell who had started 87 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:42.079 Island Records and Island Films, and I was sort of 88 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:46.680 transitioning out of the dot com world, which I'd worked 89 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.800 in in my my early twenties, but always had wanted 90 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:52.240 to work in entertainment and got a chance to work 91 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.680 with him as he was starting Palm Pictures, and it 92 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:59.519 was kind of interesting time and an interesting uh situation 93 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.680 because he was such a great guy and had this 94 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:06.000 great experience having discovered Bob Marley and you two and 95 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.199 on the film side, you know, having put out you know, 96 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.480 films by Spike Lee and Petronmdovar, and he just was 97 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.360 this you know mandarin of of all that was good 98 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:18.480 as far as I was concerned. And so I got 99 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:20.879 I got a chance to really get my feet wet 100 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:24.279 and taught to a lot of different different parts of 101 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:24.759 the business. 102 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:27.360 And that's very cool. 103 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:27.879 Uh. 104 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:30.439 You know, you know, as we talk about YouTube, you know, 105 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:32.000 I just wanted to mention, you know that that's something 106 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.920 that you know, I've had other producers on the show 107 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:36.680 and we we've also talked about that about you know, 108 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.000 making your own YouTube show as sort of like a 109 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.480 launch pad for yourself, and you know what I mean, 110 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:43.920 And it's sort of about you know, the question that 111 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.079 comes as a lot of people have asked me through 112 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.759 email and tweets and all that is basically, well, how 113 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.759 do you get the money to start your own YouTube show? 114 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.600 So it's sort of like this cyclical question that you know, 115 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:56.399 it's always like you know, the chicken or the egg, 116 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.160 you know what I mean, it's always your word. 117 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.199 And there's not always an they're The part of it 118 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.199 is if if you want to become a doctor, that 119 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:05.519 takes a lot of work, but there's a path that 120 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.160 you go through. You know, you do this, you take 121 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:08.839 that test, to go to this school, you take these 122 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:11.319 you know there there's a path here that really is 123 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.399 not And I think that's what's really frustrating to a 124 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:15.839 lot of people is you can't just tell them, oh, 125 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.079 this is this is how this happened. I think if 126 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:20.560 you asked Brian, you know, did he expect to become 127 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:23.560 a writer by you know, dussing up his Bob Dylan 128 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:26.800 and having a video go viral, he probably would not have. 129 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.040 Probably was not you know, part of his his plan. 130 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:32.199 So so that's one thing is that you have to 131 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:36.639 understand it's really not about having a solid plan, but 132 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:38.879 it is about creating things, you know, So if you 133 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.120 have an opportunity to create, create and that's that's the 134 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.120 strongest thing. I mean, even as a producer, you know, 135 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:48.000 as things are pitched to you or things come over, 136 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.000 it doesn't have to be you know, I've seen you know, 137 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:55.319 really rudimentary, uh stuff that you could just tell their 138 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:59.319 talent behind, and that's that's really enough. I remember before 139 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.720 the first Paranormal Activity came out, you know, there were 140 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:06.560 agents showing that movie around to show off the directors, 141 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:09.199 and you know, it was even more rudimentary than the 142 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.600 version that came out, but you could tell that there 143 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.480 was that

there was significant talent there. And that's that's 144 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:17.079 sort of how I would I would say we would 145 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.319 worry a little less about having money to polish everything 146 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.160 off and worry more about just making something that's in need. 147 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:28.240 Yeah, it's very good advice, Aaron. You know, just as 148 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:30.920 a quick side note, you know, for for my listeners 149 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.560 who who've listened to some of the past episodes. I 150 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:35.480 actually shot my own TV pilot and I was going 151 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.759 to actually put it up on YouTube, and then I 152 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.040 was talked out of it by an agent and he said, 153 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:41.519 don't ever put it. He said, go don't put it 154 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:44.000 on YouTube. He goes, let's just you know, shot this 155 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.879 thing around and I didn't sign with that agent, by 156 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.959 the way, but not there he really but you know, 157 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:53.759 he was giving me advice at the time, and we 158 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:56.439 ended up. I now, I'm still toying with the idea 159 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.079 of putting it up on YouTube, just because you know, 160 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.519 I basically it cost me a hell of a lot 161 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:03.759 more money than I thought it would. But but you 162 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:05.240 could tell that there was a lot of time and 163 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.079 effort put into the production, the set design, everything, uh, 164 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:10.519 you know, and I hate for it to just sit 165 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:11.759 on a hard drive, you know what I mean. 166 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:13.839 Of course, I would say it's something you're proud of. 167 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:16.600 Definitely put it out you know, there's there's something to 168 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:18.920 what he was saying as far as being selective. And 169 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:20.959 once you put something out there, then it's out there. 170 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.839 So every time someone says, you know, hey, we should 171 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.000 hire this guy, know that that is going to get 172 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.079 looked at as long as you're refined with that and 173 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.560 you you like it enough to to be proud of 174 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:33.559 it to put it up there, to absolutely do that. 175 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:36.559 But but do know that you should be somewhat selective 176 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:41.159 because whatever whatever's out there is out there you know forever. 177 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:45.240 Yeah, very true. Uh, you know, and as we talked 178 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.159 about creating, I want to actually mention, you know, Aaron, 179 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.240 you have a movie out Urge, Yes, and you know 180 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:54.960 you you actually, you know, wrote and directed and I 181 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.399 think you also produced Urged, and I wanted to ask, 182 00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:59.600 you know, what was the impetus for you to start, 183 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.480 you know, start writing and directing your own script. 184 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:05.879 Well, the Urge actually I wrote with Jason Zumwalt, who 185 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:08.799 also wrote on with with Brian That's sorry. I met 186 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:12.039 Jason with Brian on Flock of Dudes. They were he 187 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:14.960 was part of the post show. And then I ended 188 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.039 up doing early early drafts with with Jason, which really 189 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:21.679 helped it to come together. But then ultimately wrote the 190 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:25.320 last thing is two drafts with Jerry Stall. We'd written 191 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.679 Permit at Midnight, so there were id a lot of 192 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.360 collaborators on the script. But I had always wanted to direct, 193 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:33.679 and one of my reasons for taking the job with 194 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.000 Robert Rodriguez in Austin in the first place was to 195 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.320 learn production at that level. You know, I had been 196 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.279 producing for quite a while, but there was no comparison 197 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.399 to the experience I got working down a Troublemaker, where 198 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.440 you know, we were making a movie every nine months, 199 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:51.279 you know, and from the and the just in the 200 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.840 time I was there, you know, we we had done 201 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.120 two Machete films, the sequels to Sin City. 202 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.240 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, sir, 203 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:05.320 and now back to the show. 204 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.159 Spike, It's for and the UH and and Robert had 205 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:15.799 produced the UH the Predators remake with with Edian Brody, 206 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:19.559 So you know, it was NonStop production and that that 207 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.519 helped me to really build up those chops. But once 208 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:25.399 we had finished Since City, which was a really large undertaking, 209 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:29.559 it was really more a matter of trying to figure 210 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:32.240 out what I wanted to UH to direct and and 211 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:33.360 putting it together after that. 212 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.080 So I wanted to ask you mentioned working with Robert Rodriguez, Aaron. 213 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.559 I wanted to ask, you know, what are some of 214 00:10:40.559 -->

00:10:43.519 the things that you learned from him in terms of 215 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.600 either writing, production, directing. I mean, because I'm gonna admit, 216 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:48.559 I'm gonna I'm gonna geek out here, Aaron. He's a 217 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.279 huge idol of mine, and I mean, I am just 218 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:53.879 you know, I would love the opportunity to talk to him, 219 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:55.720 and I'm always interested in everyone that could that has 220 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:57.519 worked with him. You know, I've had his cousin on 221 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:02.440 ALV Rodrigue Go Rote Machete and you know we were talking. 222 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:04.320 I mean, I could you know, we were just geeking 223 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:05.960 out about movies and everything else. But I want to 224 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:08.039 but you know that that's what was wanted to ask you, Aaron, 225 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:09.279 is you know, what are some of the things that 226 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.559 you learned from from working with Robert Riguez? 227 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:13.240 Well as a lot, I mean, it's probably its own, 228 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:17.120 its own dedicated show because I think people don't realize 229 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:23.000 he has ah. He has sort of a whole theory 230 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.600 of production which is somewhat different than how everybody does things. 231 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.000 So it's like a you know, it's almost like a 232 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.720 master's class that you get from from him. But some 233 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.000 of the core tenets are the fact that, you know, 234 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:37.039 first and foremost, if he likes to work, he likes 235 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:39.759 to produce, and he produces a lot, and that in 236 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.559 itself creates a different environment. And I would say that 237 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:45.600 there's an analogue to people that are looking to put 238 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.279 stuff on YouTube, is you know the way that you 239 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:50.960 get great is by producing quite a lot. You know, 240 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:54.639 you're shooting all the time, You're getting acclimated to you know, 241 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.080 to what you could do, what's possible, and that that 242 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.200 really helps the confidence you get from knowing looking at 243 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.080 a problem and knowing, oh, i know out of out 244 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.559 a hand list, that's that's really important. And he he 245 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:09.519 did that. I mean, he was making shorts he you know, 246 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.240 before he made Mariacci. He kind of approached Mariacci in 247 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:15.960 a pretty methodical way in the sense of, you know, 248 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.240 he was getting ready for it like a marathon owner. 249 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.200 So that's you know, the just producing and producing a lot, 250 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.600 I think is one two. He also didn't really buy 251 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.679 into the whole the mechanism of all, you know, if 252 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.000 if there were there was a better idea, if there 253 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:34.759 was a way to do something more simply, he was 254 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.279 all for that, you know. And he also if you 255 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:41.159 look at him and Robert, Robert and Quentin, who are 256 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.799 very good friends and came up together, they both have 257 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:48.120 this sort of method, this sort of uh thing that 258 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.240 they live by, which is, you know, they really are 259 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.559 focused on what's what's going to be amazing, what's going 260 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.080 to be memorable by by an audience, and they really 261 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.480 try to minimize everything that isn't So, you know, anything 262 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:01.399 that's that's not you know, going to be memorable or 263 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:04.000 going to be enjoyed by by an audience. They really 264 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:05.679 try to cut a lot of that stuff out of 265 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.240 their movies, and that's why they're pretty leaning mean usually. 266 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.279 Yeah, you know, I'm always fascinated about how quickly, you know, 267 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:15.440 Robert can get a movie together, and you know, because 268 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:16.759 I mean, I know he you know, he wants to 269 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.240 make his you know, produce his own stuff. And you know, 270 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.039 there's something Robert once said about you have twenty bad 271 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.360 movies in you and basically get them out of you 272 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:26.799 as quickly as you can. And that's why he made 273 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:28.960 all those short films, you know, early on in his 274 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:30.799 in his life where it was just you know, he 275 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.080 casted his friends and family and you know, just made 276 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.600 videos like that and you know, just posted them. I think, 277 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:39.200 you know he I think me and a couple of 278 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:40.960 his DVDs. I think he posted a few of the 279 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:44.279 shorts on the DVD extras. But you know, I wanted 280 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:46.440 to ask you, Brian, when when you were you know, 281 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.679 you know, coming up, did you start you know, you know, 282 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:51.279 did you do things like that? You know me, either 283 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:53.320 in high school or in college, did you actually

make 284 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.600 your own movies and and just sort of you know, 285 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:57.919 like make a ton of like really short movies or 286 00:13:57.960 --> 00:13:59.519 and and just try to get you know, a ton 287 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:03.679 of mistakes out of the way. Yeah, I made. 288 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.440 I did some short films and wrote some short films 289 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:12.240 in uh, in high school, in college. But I went 290 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:17.440 to graduate school for a couple of years, uh for screenwriting. 291 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.919 And I think that kind of where I really just 292 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.759 had like a high volume of output and really learned 293 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:25.559 the craft that way. 294 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:30.039 Yeah. Yeah, And and just like Aaron said, I think 295 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:32.840 the best way to uh to actually learn is by doing. 296 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.360 And you know that that's you know what even other 297 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:37.679 filmmakers have had on this podcast, have you and said, 298 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:39.759 you know, that's what they did. They literally just went 299 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.240 took a camera out in their backyard, uh, you know, 300 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.480 and just started making stuff. And you know, one guy 301 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.080 told himself to edit by just taking a camera out 302 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:51.159 to his local park and basically just talked just you know, okay, 303 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:53.639 I'm gonna get I'm gonna get some video, some footage 304 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:55.639 of the ship coming in. I'm gonna get some footage 305 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:57.840 of these birds. I'm gonna get footage of this. He 306 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.559 he wasn't focused on telling the story as much as 307 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.799 he was just getting used to what's you know, operating 308 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:06.679 a camera, getting used to getting the right footage, you 309 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.360 know what I mean, like getting used to editing all 310 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:08.799 that stuff. 311 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:11.240 It's also I think writing is the is the Writing 312 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.000 is probably the biggest example of that, right because it's 313 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:18.240 so terrifying to write, and the real antidote, you know, 314 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.159 to to writing or to be able to write is 315 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.759 more right, you know, So the the you have to 316 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.440 start getting comfortable with, you know, chopping the task down 317 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:29.919 into smaller bites and saying, Okay, you know what, I'm 318 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:32.360 gonna write this character, I'm gonna write this line. I'm 319 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:34.879 going to write something that

you can do and complete 320 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.320 and feel good about to move on because it is daunting. 321 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.039 But the truth is the only way you get better 322 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:42.440 is by by doing. 323 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.360 Yeah, very true. And you know I want to talk 324 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:48.759 to you know, so you know, Aaron, as you're actually 325 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:50.879 making Urge, you know what, what are some of the 326 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.039 things that you took away? I mean, you know, Urge 327 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:56.840 looks amazing. It starts Pierce Brosnan. You know, I I've 328 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.720 you know, heard amazing things about working with Pierce, and 329 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:01.000 I want to ask you know what are some of 330 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.320 the things that you learned while making Urge. 331 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.320 I mean, Tons Pierce is great. I had worked with 332 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.879 him once before on a movie called The Greatest and 333 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.919 had met him then and was just very surprised with 334 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.799 you know, he's double a seven, so you have one 335 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.360 expectation meeting him, but he actually is just a super 336 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:24.519 decent and really genuine guy. And at that movie that 337 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.159 I had produced, was there was a first time director 338 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.159 on that movie, and he was very kind and and 339 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:32.639 sort of very open to working with her, which is 340 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.279 not something that you know, every actor feels comfortable with. 341 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.440 You know, sometimes that's a little scary for an actor 342 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.759 to work with somebody who's who's a first time filmmaker. 343 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.080 I had produced, you know, films for fifteen years, but 344 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:47.519 still stepping behind the camera as a director for the 345 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.399 first time, you're still a first time director, no matter, 346 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.519 no matter what. So I think the part of part 347 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:55.559 of approaching appears in the first first point was the 348 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.080 fact that I knew what kind of guy he was 349 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.720 and that you know, he would come and give give 350 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.679 his all all, not you know, undaunted by the fact 351 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.519 that this was my first as a as a director. 352 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.880 And then I learned with him that you know, basically, 353 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.640 get someone as good as peers to read your dialogue 354 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.240 because it makes you sound like a much better writer 355 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.680 if you if you do that, because he, you know, 356 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.079 it just comes on stage and you're expecting one thing 357 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.680 and he just did something so much better every single take, 358 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.839 and so that was that was great. But you have 359 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.160 to really, you know, learn to communicate. I think that's 360 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.400 for directing. That's that is the biggest and it may 361 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.240 sound cliche, but it really is true. You know, what 362 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.440 ends up happening in on a film set is directors 363 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.000 get so And I've seen this as a producer with 364 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:43.920 first time filmmakers, where filmmakers get so overwhelmed because they're 365 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.119 being asked a million questions and a lot of those 366 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.960 questions they actually don't know the answers to, and they 367 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.200 feel like they should and that they start to break 368 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:55.519 down and they start to just get nervous. And now 369 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.640 a lot of times they'll close down and instead of 370 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:00.079 giving more information, which is what they really need to do, 371 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.960 they give less. And that's the really the biggest and 372 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.480 the most fundamental lesson that I learned, and I would 373 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.480 certainly talk with other other filmmakers as I produced them 374 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:13.920 to let them know, you know, is that all these 375 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:16.400 people want is to do the best job they can do, 376 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:18.759 So you have to give them the tools to do it. 377 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:21.279 So if they're asking you, you know, this scene calls 378 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:22.720 for a gun, what kind of gun do you want? 379 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:24.920 And you actually don't know because you haven't thought about it, 380 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.000 that's okay. You can tell them I don't know, let 381 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.119 me think about it, and that'll be better than you know, 382 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.240 trying to just freeze up or or not communicate. 383 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.319 You know, that's a very good point, Aaron. You know 384 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.039 one you know, one guy I've always heard who knows 385 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:44.119 pretty much every answer that is asked to him is Tarantino. 386 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:46.160 You know, some people I know that have worked with 387 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.519 him have said that he already pretty much has anticipated 388 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.240 all these questions, or his vision is either so deep 389 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:54.960 that he already knows

exactly what he wants, how it 390 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:58.319 needs to look, all that stuff. And I think that 391 00:18:58.400 --> 00:18:59.680 really comes through in his movies. 392 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.599 I known Quentin. I've never actually been on set with him, 393 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.000 but I know him. I would I would definitely believe 394 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:09.880 that he knows everything, just just because he takes so 395 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.279 much time and so much care and he really almost 396 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.880 writes his movies like novels that by the time he 397 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.839 gets on set, I would imagine that he just really 398 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.440 really knows. But but even even then, you know there 399 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.200 and then when you and as you do this more 400 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.160 and more you realize as you're writing that you're thinking 401 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.559 about production in a way once you've directed, the changes 402 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.759 you're writing because now you're writing, you're thinking of, like, 403 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.160 on the day, Okay, you know, I'm putting a gun 404 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.200 in this guy's hand, what kind of gun is it 405 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:40.039 going to be? Because you know you're going to ask 406 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:41.920 and asked that question. You know, if it's if you're 407 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.680 describing drapes, the idea of what color are those or 408 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.839 what texture are those or those things. When you're first 409 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:49.920 writing and you haven't directed before, a lot of times 410 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.000 it's just well, there's drapes, or there's this, or there's 411 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.920 a gun, and you know you're you're moving on to 412 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.240 the next thing without forcing yourself to really seek through. 413 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.160 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 414 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.039 and now back to the show. 415 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.039 I think that whether it's Quentin or some of the 416 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.440 other you know, some other great directors that really like 417 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.799 Paul Thomas Anderson or anybody who created like a whole world. 418 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:18.680 I think it's because they've thought through all that, all 419 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.559 that detail, and they've they've made that feel real, which 420 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:22.480 which helps them moving. 421 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:27.759 Yeah. I really felt that during Wes Anderson's Grand Budapest Hotel, 422 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.599 because I even went out afterwards and I bought the 423 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.599 book about the artwork of the film, and I mean 424 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:37.119 you could just tell the layer of planning and creativity 425 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.279 in that film. I mean, because every shot looks literally 426 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:40.039 looks like a painting. 427 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:42.440 Yeah. No, everyone's composed and he I mean, Wes is 428 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:47.000 obviously known for for that level of almost like fetishistic detail. 429 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:49.480 He also works with some of the best people in 430 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.440 the world and he cares. What I like about Wes, though, 431 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.079 is that there are people that can get as really 432 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.519 overcome with the detail and forget to tell a story, 433 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.039 you know, or forget to really build characters, and he 434 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:04.480 seems to be one of the few people that can 435 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.480 kind of do all of those things. You know, these 436 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.680 films are so well composed, well, so well designed, and 437 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:12.079 yet they always seem to have a heart to them 438 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:14.680 that that's a really hard balance to make. Kind of 439 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.680 think he does that very well. 440 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:20.160 Yeah, I completely concur And you know, you know, as 441 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:22.680 we talk about you know, making and you know, writing films, 442 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:25.079 and I wanted to you know, talk about, you know, 443 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:28.799 you're the film that both of you produced, Flock of Dudes. Now, Brian, 444 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.519 you also co wrote the movie, if if I'm correct, 445 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:35.359 and you both produced the film. So Brian, I wanted 446 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:37.200 to ask, you know, when when, you know, what was 447 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.839 the impetus for writing you know, flock of Dudes? Did 448 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:41.720 you know, did was there any sort of you know 449 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:43.880 event did you always have this idea? 450 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:44.599 Uh? 451 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.079 You know, I I you know, so, what was the 452 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:48.680 you know, impatis of creating Flock of Dudes? 453 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.160 Yeah? That story just kind of came out organically from 454 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.279 hanging out in New York with Bob and Jason and 455 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.880 we were, I guess, you know, in our twenties, mid 456 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:05.799 mid to late twenties, and everybody was hanging out and 457 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:09.039 whenever we would go out, all the other kind of friends 458 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.640 of ours would join us, and eventually there would be 459 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:15.519 a dozen, you know guys going from bar to bar 460 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.279 in New York, and we

started joking around that we 461 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:20.960 have to just break up with all these guys that 462 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:23.440 we can get rid of them, so we're not traveling 463 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.920 around in a flock of dudes, and that kind of 464 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.559 that joke kind of became the movie. 465 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:32.960 So when you actually sat down, Brian to write the film, 466 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.559 was there? You know, do do you subscribe to sort 467 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:38.599 of any method to writing? Meaning do you subscribe to 468 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:40.759 Save the Cat? Do you sort of or are you 469 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.599 more of like a you know, a mini movie method guy, 470 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:46.160 or do you just you know, sort of just write. 471 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.480 Well, To be honest, it depends on what kind of 472 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.039 movie I'm writing though. You know, some things are more 473 00:22:55.079 --> 00:23:00.519 structured in a conventional preact way, and some of them 474 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:04.839 are more kind of a of a looser, less structured. 475 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.799 For me, it just depends on the movie really. 476 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.720 So with Flock of Dudes, when you when you sat 477 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.400 down to write, you know, since it was based you know, 478 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.519 pretty much on your own experiences, you know, you did 479 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:18.279 it sort of just flow out of you? Did you 480 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:19.960 already know like, hey, look, I know I want this 481 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:22.119 to happen. I know by the end of the movie, 482 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:24.440 I want this to happen. Was was it something like that? 483 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:27.759 I think we had a couple kind of big kind 484 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.519 of plot points, like the guys breaking up with each 485 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:35.240 other and things of that nature. Really, I mean, I 486 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.720 think at least with the group of people writing together, 487 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.319 with three of us writing, it was just about sitting 488 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.880 sitting down and figuring out, hey, you know, what are 489 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.039 some interesting and funny things and characters, and then ultimately 490 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.039 how can we kind of stringed us together into into 491 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:55.480 a story that makes sense and has, you know, a 492 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:58.960 solid enough structure that it kind of fits into the 493 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.759 realm of a commercial movie. 494 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.119 Right, you know, because I've had the writers of Broken 495 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.160 Lizard on and that's something they were talking about as well, 496 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:11.240 was that, you know, they would get together, you know, 497 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.039 brainstorm an idea, and they wanted to make sure that 498 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:15.920 it was there was actually a story there, you know 499 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.799 what I mean, And they wanted to make sure that, 500 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.640 you know, they would put that that the story and 501 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:22.920 the structure would be like the bones and then like 502 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:24.799 all the jokes and everything would sort of be like 503 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.079 the muscle and the skin, so to speak. 504 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:28.880 Yeah m hm. 505 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.839 So, so you know, Brian, I wanted to ask, you know, 506 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.000 how many drafts did you go through flock of dudes 507 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.880 before you finally said, you know what this is, this 508 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:38.759 is the draft that is ready to shoot. 509 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.960 Between the very beginning, Well, a Lot of Duds is 510 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:47.000 a long process. It had been optioned by a studio 511 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.440 and came back to it, and we had multiple drafts 512 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:51.680 at every step of the way. 513 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.079 But I would say probably overall. 514 00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:55.599 We probably did thirty drafts of them. 515 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:01.839 Well minds actually, because they had been through sort of 516 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:08.640 a studio development process, and so I came along after that, 517 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.000 and I remember sitting with them working on the script, 518 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.960 and no matter what you mentioned, they would say, oh, yeah, 519 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.039 the like this producer had suggested that before, or the 520 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:21.519 studio wanted that with to the extent where you were like, 521 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.200 what if all these you know, characters were chickens instead 522 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.480 of people? They would be like, well, actually, you know, 523 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.160 the studio had the studio had mentioned that that might 524 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:31.559 be an idea, and so there was no way how 525 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:34.039 many permutations had been thrown at them. But I think 526 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.519 it kept coming back to the original story, which was 527 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.599 this you know, real relationship between these guys. And what 528 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.960 I always liked about it was that it was a 529 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.480 fun comedy with lots of big laughs in it, but 530 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:51.160 at the core it still felt real and it still 531 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.480 felt like it was rooted in you know, these real relationships, 532 00:25:55.079 -->

00:25:56.640 and I think that made it a lot, a lot 533 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:57.440 more interesting for me. 534 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.599 And that's one thing that I think Aaron did very well, 535 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:05.839 which we have encountered from time to time, but it's 536 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:10.039 not all that common, which she really recognized the core 537 00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:13.559 of the story, which is kind of essentially kind of 538 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:16.519 the emotional journey of the. 539 00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:19.559 Lead character, and he helped us really kind of protect 540 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.039 that and make sure any you know, encourage us to 541 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:28.039 deliver on that. You know, stories are so in the end, 542 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.680 the story is so really fragile that there are a. 543 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:35.519 Lot of ways that it can go sideways if you're 544 00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:37.759 not kind of protecting what's important about it. 545 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:41.920 Yeah, you know, that's very true. And you know, this 546 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:44.039 is something I've learned too now from my own experience 547 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:47.039 but also from doing this podcast is whenever a writer 548 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:52.720 director gets a producer, a piece of the singular sort 549 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:57.119 of bonding elements to all good relationships has always been 550 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.480 that the producer sees that that core of that script 551 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.640 and he and he or she actually really really digs 552 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:06.480 that idea, you know what I mean, they really understand 553 00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:08.960 one another and that and that's so when the producer 554 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.839 goes out and is talking to you know, investors or 555 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.759 or going to distribute distributors that they can you know, 556 00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.319 use that in the pitch and use that as the 557 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:19.920 selling point. But also you know what I mean, like 558 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.079 so that way there, it's not that sort of what 559 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:24.119 we're talking about four before with all the different permeations 560 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:25.680 where it's like, well, what if they were chickens, what 561 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:27.920 if they were that? You know what I mean? Yeah, 562 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:33.079 mm so, uh, you know, I wanted to talk about 563 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.920 you know, since we're talking about producing, I wanted to 564 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.799 ask you guys, you know, you know producing uh, you 565 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.000 know Flock of Dudes. You know, both of you produced this, 566 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.319 and I wanted to ask, you know, what were some 567 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.480 of the biggest challenges in in producing something like this. 568 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.240 I'm sorry I missed the least the question. 569 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.119 What was some of the biggest challenges in producing Flock 570 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:51.559 of Dudes? 571 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:54.000 I mean, I think the Flock of Dudes, you're you're 572 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:56.640 trying there's a couple of things. One, you're trying to 573 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.680 make a comedy in the independent space, which, you know, 574 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.960 the independent space is not necessarily that welcoming of this 575 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:07.680 kind of film. You know, if you look at what 576 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:10.480 really gets made in the indie space, it's it's dedicated 577 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:12.680 toward you know, what we'll show at Sundance, what will 578 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.799 show at Toronto. You don't really see sort of rye 579 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:20.000 mold comedies at those at those festivals. And we were really, 580 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:22.119 at the end of the day, trying to make a 581 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.039 commercial comedy that would re enjoyed, you know, sort of 582 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.920 outside of the the indie space. That was sort of 583 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.960 one challenge because you're the people that are there, the 584 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.119 systems that's there that to to help you and assist 585 00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:37.279 you through the process, there doesn't really exist. You know, 586 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:38.880 this is a kind of movie that would get made 587 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.440 by a new line, and we were trying to make 588 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.160 it look and feel and uh and and act like 589 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.519 one of those movies, which is great, except that you're 590 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:50.079 really on your own because you're there's just not the 591 00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.960 sort of in the in sport in the indie world 592 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:55.759 for that, uh you know, you don't have big festivals 593 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.920 that want those kind of comedies. So that's one two. 594 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.319 You you know, we're we're trying to make something that 595 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:06.519 looks like a bigger budget movie on on less uh less, 596 00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.000 a less of a budget on a smaller budget. One 597 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.599 of the things that we had lucked out on is 598 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.640 the post show. Guys had some great relationships in the 599 00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.400 comedy world, and we were able to populate the film 600 00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.799 with with with guys that we people really liked. And 601 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.720 then once that started to move, then other people started 602 00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:26.480 to come on board.

You know, it's for like Hillary 603 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.599 Duff and Jamie Chung and and uh, you know even 604 00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.680 real Lyoda we're joining at that point because we had 605 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.720 Crystalia and Brick Gelman and Kamala and Johnny and all 606 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.640 these other people that were really coming up. And this 607 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.000 movie has been we made it a little while ago, 608 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:43.359 so I would I would say casting wise, we look 609 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:46.759 like geniuses because now everybody who's in the film has 610 00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:50.559 kind of blown up and become huge. But that was 611 00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.279 the Those are the kind of one two uh issues, 612 00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:57.119 And then you know you're dealing with the Bob Castron 613 00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:59.640 who directed it, who's the first time as a as 614 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:00.640 a direct. 615 00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.359 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor 616 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:09.240 and now back to the show. 617 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:13.400 So you're you're dealing with those that are not specific 618 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.599 to Bob but specific to anyone who's who's making their 619 00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:18.640 their first film. 620 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.000 So you know that's actually another producing question I had, 621 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.720 was you know, with a cast like that, you know 622 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:26.680 how you know, because they're all doing so many things. 623 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.200 Jo Hanna Simone, she's on New Girl, you know, you 624 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:32.839 have Eric Andre, you have Hilary Duff. You know what 625 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:35.799 was what was some of the biggest logistic issues, you know, 626 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.759 just getting all the all these actors together. Was there 627 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:40.319 any logistic issues? 628 00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:42.359 There was? I mean there was a lot of just 629 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:44.960 the casting of it. You know, we we ended up 630 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.960 normally in a film as a producer, I'm casting directly 631 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:50.160 three or four roles you know that are your sort 632 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.160 of bigger roles, and then working with the casting director 633 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.359 to to come up with ideas for everybody else here. 634 00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:59.000 We really kind of cast down almost the entire the 635 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:02.759 entire movie. So other than background, there are no like 636 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:05.480 day players on the movie. Everybody are you know, everybody 637 00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.799 in the in the film is is somebody great? Uh? 638 00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:10.839 Not that not that day players can't be great, but 639

00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:14.240 you know these are every every single role is is 640 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.920 populated by by somebody who we loved and was really great. 641 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.960 So you have you know, Jeff Ross in a in 642 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.559 a scene. You have Kellen Coleman, you have Timothy Simon's 643 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.319 from Veep in a in a really funny scene. So 644 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:29.160 there's the movie kind of just keeps going and going. 645 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.480 And for producing wise, we were really excited every day 646 00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:34.599 almost because it was like every year we got to 647 00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:38.400 work with somebody new and that we admired Hannibal Baris 648 00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:40.480 and you know, just it just went on and on. 649 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:43.440 So it was that that made it pretty pretty fun. 650 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.640 But getting you know, doing that was was done as 651 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.400 a concerted effort because it was a matter of how 652 00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.240 do we make this movie stand out? How do we 653 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:55.519 make this movie look special? And and that was what 654 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:57.279 was was one of our big ways of doing it. 655 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.359 You know, Aaron, you mentioned that this was Bob Kastron's 656 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.920 your directorial debut. You know, when when investors were looking 657 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.599 at the movie, did they ever you know, maybe question, 658 00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:11.400 you know, should we you know, is Bob gonna be 659 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:13.160 able to handle this? I don't mean it the way 660 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.119 it sounds, by the way. I just mean that, you know, 661 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.240 is there ever a you know, a sort of an 662 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:20.279 issue that someone would raise. We're saying like, well, hey, 663 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.279 you know, you know, is there any is there anybody else? 664 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:26.599 You know what I mean. I'm not I don't mean 665 00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:28.039 it the way it sounds. 666 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:30.559 Not at all, really, and in fact, it's exactly what happens, 667 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:33.400 and having nothing to do with Bob specifically, just the 668 00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:38.119 moment you say first time filmmaker to an investor, it's 669 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:39.680 it's you know that it's not what you want to hear. 670 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.160 No one, no one ever grabs you and says, oh great, 671 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.319 that's exactly what I wanted, first time director to latish 672 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:48.000 my my my money on. And look, the same thing 673 00:32:48.039 --> 00:32:51.400 went for for me after flogging Dudes, I directed Urge 674 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:53.799 and I thought, you know, having been in film for 675 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:56.440 so long and having worked on you know, big movies 676 00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.839 like Lake since City, that you know, being a first 677 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:00.920 time director would not be as much of a hindrance. 678 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.319 But it still is, you know. And really, what it 679 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:05.359 comes down to, and I understand it a little bit 680 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:09.559 better now, is that before you direct, you really have 681 00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:11.839 no idea what kind of director you're going to be. 682 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:14.880 You could hope, you can think, you can prepare, you 683 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.160 can learn, you can watch movies, you can take classes, 684 00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.960 you can learn theory. All of these things are which 685 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:23.039 you should do, which is great, but none of them 686 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.599 really prepare you for what it's actually like. And I've 687 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:27.599 seen that. I've seen people that get behind the camera 688 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.240 and they just freeze and it's not for them. And 689 00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:32.640 I've seen people get behind it who you weren't necessarily 690 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:34.480 think you were going to be great and they thrive. 691 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.240 So that because that's a random That's why I think 692 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:40.559 people get really nervous about it is because they just 693 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.839 there's nothing, there's nothing to repare. You're essentially trusting a 694 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:48.000 producer who says, yes, this person can do this job. 695 00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.440 So you have to overcome that, and a lot of 696 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.359 ways we overcame. That was the you know who we 697 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.200 had on to produce a movie, who we brought on 698 00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:59.759 cast wise to really offset ECU. 699 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:06.160 Yeah, you know, and uh, I'm glad that you you 700 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.199 you uh, because that's what I'm trying to say, Aaron, 701 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.599 was that basically, you know, even when you know, in 702 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:12.960 my own experience, when you know, you put something together 703 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.159 like a pitch packet and you you know, you go 704 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.159 to investors, you know, that's not something they want to 705 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:19.639 hear first time director. You know what I mean, because 706 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:21.480 you know, you know, they they sort of they want 707 00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:23.920 to know who and I forget who I was saying 708 00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:25.239 this too, but that's sort of what the new thing 709 00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.480 is where it's like even for

you know, for any 710 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.719 independent film. Now it's like we want a named director, 711 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.960 a named producer, a named writer even you know, and 712 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:35.079 and the cast all has to be sellable so you know, 713 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.960 get us people, you know what I mean. And it's 714 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.239 sort of putting this whole package deal together where every 715 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:41.280 so it's sort of like you're stacking the deck. So 716 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:43.400 when you go to producers, I'm sorry, when you go 717 00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:45.599 to investors that you can say, look, you know, we're 718 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.159 pretty much stacking the deck in your favor because everyone 719 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.440 here is willing to work for a little less maybe 720 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.119 or you know, is willing to work on this, on 721 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:54.440 this passion project, you're. 722 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.639 Ondredson right, and I for me, it makes it a 723 00:34:57.639 --> 00:34:59.400 lot less fun than it used to be. I mean, 724 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:01.960 you always had the put a package together, but now 725 00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:04.400 in order to get something off the ground, you have 726 00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:05.679 to you know, it used to be all, okay, we 727 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.320 have one major star who wants to make this movie 728 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:11.280 and it's a smaller movie. Let's go. Now it's like, okay, 729 00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.719 well the first and second lead and third and maybe 730 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.800 fourth Aaron, we need a name director. And then all 731 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:19.400 of a sudden, in my mind, you're taking a lot 732 00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.360 of what's special about indie film in the first place. 733 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:24.800 You know, I grew up in the nineties, and you know, 734 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:26.960 that's when I think New York indie film was really 735 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.480 kind of at its height, and you had great you know, 736 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.760 you had you know, kids, and you had you know, 737 00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:35.920 all these great you know, The Simple Men and all 738 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.400 these other great, great movies that were coming out. And 739 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:40.800 you know, Jim Jarmish and and those guys were not 740 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:44.679 making those movies thinking that they needed five main stars 741 00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:47.199 to make those movies. And I don't know that their 742 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:50.480 films would have been as special if if they did so. 743 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.079 I do think I understand it because I understand the 744 00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:56.400 financing side of things, and I understand why they're they're 745 00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:58.639 looking for that. But I would venture to say that 746 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.880 the most success full independent films are the ones that 747 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.280 where you know, artistry is really at the at the forefront. 748 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:06.960 You know. 749 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:10.679 I had on Chris Jay who from Armia Freshman, and 750 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:14.000 he actually made a movie called The Bet. And what 751 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.440 they did was they actually crowdfunded a little bit of money, 752 00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:18.800 uh and actually took that money and sort of has 753 00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:21.519 like a seed investment, and they actually went out to 754 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:24.280 to find you know, more money through actual investors, and 755 00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:26.880 because that's that they actually had to you know, basically 756 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.679 that's sort of like the new model, as he was saying, 757 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:31.840 you know mean, because that's that way he could you know, 758 00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:33.920 use that to go out and fly to meet these 759 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:37.639 people or or what you have these meetings or you know, 760 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:39.920 and and you know that they finally got the money 761 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:42.199 and they you know, if you watch the bet, you 762 00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:44.239 know has like Jake the Snake, Roberts has Rady already 763 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.320 Piper in it, you know what I mean, Like those 764 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:48.559 like we were just saying, they're sprinkled throughout the whole movie. 765 00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:52.760 Yeah, I mean, I I personally don't really know how 766 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:55.880 the crowd for for sourcing stuff works. I'm interested in it, 767 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.719 you know, I've seen some good stuff happen from it. 768 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.239 But yeah, I mean a lot of filmmaking is about 769 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.840 momentum and so anything that you can use to get 770 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.159 momentum going. So if you know, a lot of times 771 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.039 we would I would raise you know, seed money or 772 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:11.679 we'd raise development money for a film. If you can 773 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:14.719 do that through crowdsourcing to give that would give you 774 00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:17.000 the momentum that you need. And once you're momentum. Then 775 00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.360 people start to pay attention. You know, if you say, look, 776 00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:21.599 we're going to make this movie maybe, or we're going 777 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:24.559 to make this movie in October, it's very different. It's 778 00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:27.559 very different for agents, and it's very different forecast to 779 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.880 wrap their head around trying to come

on board. 780 00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.440 You know, Aaron, if you ever have any questions about crowdfunding, 781 00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:35.320 I will be more than happy to answer any questions 782 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:38.719 you may have because I have done I've done it 783 00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:41.920 a number of times. I've helped other filmmakers raise budgets 784 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:44.760 all that good stuff. So I even wrote a couple 785 00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.320 of articles about it, which was actually one of them 786 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:49.480 was on Any Film Hustle with Alex Ferrari, who you 787 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.800 with whom you were on the podcast I did? Yeah, 788 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.920 So so it's on his site, so it's you know, 789 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.360 it's yeah. So if you have any questions, please let 790 00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:57.559 me know. 791 00:37:57.719 --> 00:37:57.960 Great. 792 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.480 So, you know, guys, I had some fan questions come in. 793 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:02.719 Would you mind answering a few? 794 00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:04.280 No, sounds great. 795 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.920 My first question just said. My first question comes in 796 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.320 from the Good People podcast Reviews, which is at the 797 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:17.719 Hippo Critics. As the film was mentioned on WTF podcast 798 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.159 with Mark Maron as being delayed. What issues did you encounter? 799 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.800 Oh? Well, what was can you read the question? I'm sorry? 800 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.199 The short no problem as the film was mentioned on 801 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:32.519 WTF pod podcast with Mark Maron as being delayed. What 802 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:34.119 issues did you encounter? Yeah? 803 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:36.480 We uh, I think it was he was talking to 804 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:40.679 Eric Andre the the film itself, you know, we we 805 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.159 put together and it was put together a really small 806 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:48.199 small budget, and then we were we cut the film. 807 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.440 I was, like I said, I was directing Urge and 808 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.480 was able to tack then kind of right before that, 809 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.480 come back and work with Bob on another cut, and 810 00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:00.480 then really it was just the the vaguer of their 811 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:03.199 current indie space. You know, we were looking for We 812 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:06.440 weren't looking to go you know, we were very proud 813 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.320 of the film, and we were looking for the right 814 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:10.960 partner for it, and so we had been approached by 815 00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.920 it by a bunch, but their ideas for bringing it 816 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:16.880 out just were not aggressive enough. And then

we were 817 00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:20.639 lucky enough to connect with stars who have been great 818 00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:23.039 to us and uh and have have a really great 819 00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.320 idea for bringing the movie out and doing it theatrically 820 00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.000 as well as as as V O D. And then 821 00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.440 and then I partnered with Hulu, so the movie will 822 00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:35.840 get a much broader uh in premature than than it 823 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.360 would have and I think holding out for the right 824 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:41.599 situation was was the best idea. Then after that they 825 00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:43.480 had a schedule of when you know what, when the 826 00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:46.440 movie would fit in the queue, which took some time 827 00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:48.800 as well. But yeah, I think it's it's it's been 828 00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:51.079 something because I think a lot of the casts and 829 00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.639 myself included, we're really happy and proud of the film 830 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.400 and really liked it, wanted to see it come out, 831 00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:59.960 and the waiting has made a little bit of a bomber. 832 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.039 But we've reached out now to cast. 833 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.960 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor 834 00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:11.079 and now back to the show. 835 00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.599 And they're all coming back on board to uh TO 836 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:17.400 to help promote it now, which has been great. 837 00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.519 Yeah, and that that There's another question that came in 838 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.920 which actually ties in to what we're just talking about, 839 00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:26.079 is you know, do you find it hard to release 840 00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:28.559 a film now because the marketplace has gotten a little 841 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:29.639 bit more crowded. 842 00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:38.079 M Baron, Yeah, I think I think so, but I 843 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.000 don't I don't know that it's as crowded as it is. 844 00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:44.039 There are other options, you know, I think it's it's 845 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.239 you saw Glutz in the independent film world a few times, right. 846 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.639 I think two thousand and six seven was probably one 847 00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:53.360 that I can remember specifically because it was like a lot, 848 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:54.960 there were a lot of good movies that came out, 849 00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:57.559 and it was we were dealing with a flush of 850 00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:01.440 money that hit the independent market, mostly from hedge funds, 851 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.440 and it was just creating too much product that couldn't 852 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.039 be absorbed. Now, I don't know if it's that. I 853 00:41:07.039

--> 00:41:09.159 don't know if that's the issue. I think the issue 854 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.239 is just what are our behaviors. I think our behaviors 855 00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.679 have changed, which is in some ways scarier because I 856 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:18.159 think our behaviors used to be, you know, great, it's 857 00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:19.960 Friday night, I'm going to go on a date, let's 858 00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:23.880 go to let's go watch a movie. Now you literally 859 00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:27.320 have like, you know, people say things like let's Netflix 860 00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:31.239 and chill right, which is a completely different sort of mindset, 861 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:34.159 And I think that's pervasive. So I think people now 862 00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:37.519 looking for more stuff that they can binge watch, more 863 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.719 stuff that they can see. I think people are enjoying watching, 864 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:43.559 you know, something that's more in depth, like ten episodes 865 00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:46.719 of narcos, and so I think that the amount of 866 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:51.360 time people want to spend in the theater is less, 867 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:55.119 and so therefore it's got to be more special. The 868 00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:59.679 corollary is that you have the studios and that are 869 00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:02.760 putting movies out there that know that the only way 870 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:05.480 to really get people's attention is to spend quite a 871 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.320 lot of money, and so the amount of films that 872 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:11.800 they're willing to make that kind of risk on is 873 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.920 really gone, you know. So what you're seeing less and 874 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:17.119 less of are what I kind of grew up understanding, 875 00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:19.960 which was like that platform release where you're putting it 876 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.199 on five screens is doing well, You're putting it on 877 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.079 to ten, you're putting it on fifty, you're putting it 878 00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.519 on one hundred. You know, you're making a way to 879 00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:30.000 one thousand. You're seeing that happen less and less. So 880 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:32.840 you either have big movies like you know, Marvel films 881 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:35.440 that come out in four thousand screens, or you're seeing 882 00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:37.239 you know, Someding come out on two screens and then 883 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:41.280 go to the od It's the world has has changed, 884 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:44.039 and that's made it more and more difficult for producers. 885 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.840 Yeah, and that's something I've noticed as well, is that 886 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:49.760 you know it is really you know, you sort of 887 00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.159 have to make those those those projections, right you sort 888 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.199 of that's why we know, we were talking about sort 889 00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:56.199 of stacking the deck in our favor, and you have 890 00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:58.719 to make those projections that you know, this is how, 891 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:00.800 you know, if we could sell vod, if we can 892 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:02.920 sell it through a website, if we can get on iTunes, 893 00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:04.440 get an aggregator, all that stuff. 894 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:06.559 Well, yeah, but the one thing I would I would say, 895 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:08.800 and I would reinforce is one of you know, indie 896 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.800 film in some ways hurt itself. Going back to that 897 00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:14.280 time two thousand and six seventy eight, there were a 898 00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:16.239 lot of uh, there was a lot of money. It 899 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:19.559 was flush, and instead of producers saying, okay, let's find 900 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:22.599 the right movies, people were grabbing projects that had been 901 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.800 on on shelves for years and saying, well, let's make this. 902 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:27.719 And so there was great stuff that came out at 903 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:29.719 that time, but there was also a ton of stuff 904 00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:33.119 that was either not good or just wasn't yet ready 905 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:36.119 to be put out there. So that's the other thing 906 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:39.599 is for now you have multiple ways of getting to people, 907 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:42.280 and even you know, having someone see a movie on 908 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:44.480 Netflix is not the worst thing in the world, But 909 00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:48.440 what are you doing when they do find you? Are 910 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:52.159 you doing anything new and interesting? Because that's what I 911 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:55.039 think people will gravitate towards. You know, if it's a 912 00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:58.440 French you know, miniseries, but if it's amazing people are 913 00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.679 finding it on Netflix. I think that that's a good thing. 914 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.960 But I think that puts the onlyus on the filmmaker 915 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:06.039 to not just make a movie, but to make something 916 00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.199 that's that has a reason for being today. 917 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:10.880 Yeah, that's a good point, Aaron. 918 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:11.440 Uh. 919 00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.119 You know, and actually I have one final question that 920 00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.480 came in and basically it is, you know, what would 921 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.920 you recommend for a first time producer making a film? 922 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:22.679 Run run Away? 923 00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:25.199 I you know, look, that's the answer. 924 00:44:25.400

--> 00:44:28.360 The more that you know, the more you have one thing, 925 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:30.360 you have to work harder than anybody else, and you 926 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:32.400 have to get that out there. People need to see 927 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:36.000 that you're willing to be, you know, as aggressive, more 928 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:40.079 aggressive than anybody else, because momentum is really what makes 929 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:42.639 a movie. People look at you when you have a 930 00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.039 script and you're trying to peddle a script around town. 931 00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.159 You have a script, and that's it may be great, 932 00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:49.840 it may not be, but that's why they view. If 933 00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.400 you have a movie, meaning you have this thing up 934 00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.079 and running, you guys are going to go on October twelfth, 935 00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:59.039 that changes things, that's complete, completely, creates a new dynamic. 936 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.239 And so the a point at which as a producer, 937 00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:05.880 your goal is not to get a script funded by somebody, 938 00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.760 because that happens so infrequently. What you have to do 939 00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:12.559 is start adding the elements, right, So you have to 940 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:14.519 look at who do I know, who can I get to, 941 00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:16.880 who can help me? And you have to not be 942 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:19.519 afraid to go and try to bring those people on board. 943 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.079 And so you have to think of it almost like 944 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.880 you're keeping plates in the air, you know, spinning at 945 00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:26.840 all times you're running to you know, if you're gonna 946 00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.000 not direct it, you have to find the director for it. 947 00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:31.559 If you don't know a name director, you don't have 948 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:34.679 somebody who you can bring on who adds value per se, 949 00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:38.119 find the most talented person you can find. Then you 950 00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:40.000 can get behind and you can show, look, this movie 951 00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:41.800 is not just a great movie, but I'm going to 952 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.760 bring this incredible piece of talent to the world. And 953 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:47.920 then as you're starting to talk to talent. You're now 954 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:51.239 you have a great script with a really impressive filmmaker, 955 00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:53.159 and don't you want to be a part of this? 956 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:55.760 And so you're always running the table and you kind 957 00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.559 of always have to do these things simultaneously. It's a 958 00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.280 lot of work, and I feed people that have an 959 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:05.480 impulse to make a film sometimes don't always understand that 960 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.400 the amount of work and sort of how grueling it 961 00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.440 it can be. You can't just approach it sequentially where 962 00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:13.519 I'm going to bring the script to somebody, He's gonna 963 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:15.239 give me a bag of money. I'm then gonna go 964 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.079 spend that money on great talent, and then we're gonna 965 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:19.360 make a genie this movie and then go click, you know, 966 00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:22.480 Academy Awards. It just doesn't really work that way. It 967 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:26.559 really is a game of trying to build momentum, and 968 00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:29.239 the more you build, the better your movie can can 969 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.159 attract talent, and hopefully the better, better movie you'll be 970 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:32.639 able to make. 971 00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:36.400 You know, there's a piece of producing advice that someone 972 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:39.840 once gave me, and basically, all the resources come down 973 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:42.519 to time and money. Either you need more time or 974 00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:46.000 you need more money. But they said you can spend 975 00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:48.440 you could spend time to get more money, but you 976 00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:50.480 can't spend money to get more time, sort of, right. 977 00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:52.920 I mean it's true. 978 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:55.239 I mean I've been on you know, I've I've seen 979 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:58.000 that before, where you know, you think you have all 980 00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.719 the money in the world and so therefore actually equal 981 00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:03.920 better movie and it doesn't always, you know, so I 982 00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:05.880 think that no matter where you are, And that was 983 00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:08.679 a lesson I learned working with Arbera Rodriguez was he 984 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.440 wasn't always looking at like, how much money could I 985 00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:14.159 possibly get to make this movie. Quite the contrary, he 986 00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:16.239 would if he can get forty million dollars to make 987 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:17.800 a spike at the movie, he'd make that movie for 988 00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:22.360 thirty because he was always trying to, you know, out 989 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.800 smart the production, try to you know, deal with less. 990 00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:28.239 And also in that scenario he would always have a 991 00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:32.119 little bit more autonomy because the the onus was was 992 00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.039 far less than if he had made it for you know, 993 00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:37.199 fifty million dollars. So money doesn't always buy quality. If 994 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.480 it did, then you

know, every you know, every big 995 00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.679 Warner Brothers and Fox movie would be amazing. But it's 996 00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:48.440 it's not that said on the end front. You know, 997 00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:51.119 I think that you're you're still competing in a way 998 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:55.000 with those large movies, and so you have to invest 999 00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:57.599 in something else. You don't have CG. You don't have 1000 00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:02.159 you know, the these huge implementations. But what you do 1001 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:04.559 can have is style, and what you can have is 1002 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:09.360 story and great character and something that's going to to 1003 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:11.880 to pop. And so you can put a movie like 1004 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:15.519 Black Swan into the same mix as you know, The 1005 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:18.639 Avengers and it will do well because it's different enough 1006 00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:21.920 and it's it's engaging enough. Yeah. 1007 00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:24.719 Yeah, And and that's a really good point. And you know, Aaron, 1008 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.079 just to sort of, you know, at one final thought 1009 00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.119 to that, you know, as we talk about you know, 1010 00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:31.960 making you know films and producing our first films, one 1011 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.119 popular method, you know, I've heard from a lot of 1012 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:38.360 guests that I've on this podcast and even from reading books, 1013 00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:40.840 particularly Stu Makowitz's. 1014 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:42.239 Book. 1015 00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:46.119 Uh, basically it's creating that Rodriguez list, you know, and 1016 00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:48.800 it's basically you know, creating that you know, find out 1017 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:51.360 what you have access to, and then you build a 1018 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:53.000 script around that. So if you you know what I mean, 1019 00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.599 if you have Grandma's house, so you can use the 1020 00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:57.119 basement shoot something in that basement, if you have an 1021 00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:59.760 old student baker that's sitting somewhere, try to find a 1022 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.639 way to put down the script as well, for sure. 1023 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.320 Yeah, and I think I would extend that to include 1024 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.039 relationships as well. You know, who do you know who, 1025 00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:10.559 who you have access to, who can help you, who 1026 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.440 can introduce you to this person or that person? You know? 1027 00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:16.280 And and uh and do that. But but more importantly, 1028 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:17.719 you know, at the end of the day, the piece 1029 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:20.960 piece that people forget sometimes is are you do you

1030 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:23.239 have something you're passionate about. You have a movie that 1031 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.199 you really want to tell you know that you know 1032 00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:28.559 because a lot of this stuff is details. A lot 1033 00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:31.440 of this stuff is you know the how, And I 1034 00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.639 think you've got to figure out the why. And that's 1035 00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:37.400 what hurts a lot of movies, is you have the how, like, oh, 1036 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:39.280 I wanted to make a movie and I figured out 1037 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:41.480 how to do it. That's great and I appreciate that, 1038 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:43.719 But at the same time, you really need to start 1039 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:45.880 from the why, which is I have this piece of 1040 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:48.280 material that is going to be so funny or it's 1041 00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:51.760 so interesting, we're so engaging that you know, I have 1042 00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:55.920 to get it out there. And that that's generally a 1043 00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:56.800 better place to start. 1044 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:00.440 We'll be right back after a wh heard from our 1045 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:06.480 sponsor and now back to the show. 1046 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:10.360 Yeah, you know, and that's a great point, Aaron. And 1047 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:11.880 but it is about who you know, right, This whole 1048 00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.599 this whole industry is about relationships, and it is always 1049 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:17.960 about you know who you know, right. You know, guys, 1050 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:21.599 we've been talking for about, you know, forty nine minutes now, 1051 00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:24.199 you know. So in closing, is there anything that we 1052 00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:26.519 didn't talk about that you may wanted to discuss or 1053 00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:28.199 sort of any sort of final thoughts that you'd like 1054 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:31.639 to add to this conversation. Just sort of put a 1055 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:32.719 period at the end of this whole thing. 1056 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:35.440 I know, Brian waiting on the election right print. 1057 00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:39.960 Yeah, for sure, I've been you know, starting up, and 1058 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.639 I think I've I've got it off, so you're out 1059 00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.559 who's gonna wait in everything? So now I would say 1060 00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:49.320 kind of big picture is a little bit what you 1061 00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:54.320 what we've all been circling around, which is there is 1062 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:59.719 the movie you have in your mind, which is in 1063 00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:03.320 your imagination. There is the reality of life. 1064 00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:05.320 You have to deal. 1065 00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:08.400 With the reality while I'm trying to execute this vision. 1066 00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:16.559 So that to cross the board, whether you're dealing with resources, money, actors, locations, anything. 1067 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.480 You know, don't be an artist who has an aversion 1068 00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.400 to reality. This is not going to help you make 1069 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:26.599 a movie. You'll you'll do what you do, but you're 1070 00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:29.960 not gonna make a movie. So, you know, even though 1071 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.199 it's an unpleasant reality, often better that than not. That's 1072 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.679 kind of my That's what I've kind of learned essentially. 1073 00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:42.559 Yeah, and you're you're right, Brian, you know that that 1074 00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:46.159 is something you know, Uh, you know, I yeah, you know, 1075 00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:48.440 I sometimes think, you know, you sort of you have 1076 00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.480 to pick and choose battles, right, you know what I mean, 1077 00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:52.719 You can pick and choose battles as long as you 1078 00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:54.079 win the war type of it, you know, you know 1079 00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:59.679 what I mean? Mm hmm yeah, so uh so, Erin, 1080 00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:01.239 is there any sort of final thoughts that you have 1081 00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:02.760 the sort of as whole. 1082 00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:06.000 Conversations that Flocked the Dudes comes out on September thirtieth 1083 00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:11.840 and comes out in theaters and on on iTunes. We're 1084 00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:13.920 really we're really happy with the movie and now hope 1085 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:14.880 everybody enjoys it. 1086 00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:19.920 And everyone I will link to Flock of Dudes in 1087 00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:24.480 the show notes. I will link to all the good 1088 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.360 stuff about the movie. I will link to everything we 1089 00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:29.880 talked about. Brian. Where we will find you out online. 1090 00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:33.599 The website from me and the guys is the post 1091 00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:36.840 show dot com, and you can find some sketches that 1092 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:38.840 we had done kind of leading up to Flock of 1093 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.440 Dudes and also just some other information of us. 1094 00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:43.400 Cool. 1095 00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:47.280 Are you on Twitter or Facebook or anything on I'm 1096 00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:51.639 on Facebook. I'm not on Twitter, so okay, cool and 1097 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:53.119 Aaron were we'll find you at all. 1098 00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:57.480 I'm on Twitter at at a underscore Kaufman k A 1099 00:52:57.599 --> 00:52:59.840 U F M A N on Twitter and I think 1100 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:04.360 I'm Aaron K. Kaufman on Instagram cool, and I will link. 1101 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:07.239 To that in the show notes as well. H Aaron, Brian, 1102 00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:08.960 I want to say thank you very much for coming on. 1103 00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:11.880 I wish you the best with Flock of Dudes. Guys. 1104 00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:13.719 I look forward to seeing Flock of Dudes or whatever 1105 00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:16.840 he can from Oh My Pleasure guys, Thank you, I 1106 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:18.639 wish you the best. All right, thanks my pleasure. By 1107 00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:19.280 take care guys. 1108 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.159 I want to thank Dave so much for doing such 1109 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:23.719 a great job on this episode. If you want to 1110 00:53:23.719 --> 00:53:25.639 get links to anything we spoke about in this episode. 1111 00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:29.079 Head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. 1112 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.880 Forward slash for sixty three. Thank you so much for 1113 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:35.000 listening to guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. 1114 00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:36.119 I'll talk to you soon. 1115 00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.519 Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at bulletproof 1116 00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:41.960 Screenwriting dot tv.