บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Infinite Grace: Finding Worthiness in Christ's Love with Alan Larsen [2.13]

and serve as a Bishop twice, most recently with a YSA ward in South Provo, which Donnie and I both loved a lot. Crishelle: Oh, I bet. They're so lucky to have you. I wish I had been a part of that award. That would have been so fun. I'm so excited to continue the Ecclesiastic Leader series with this discussion because it is I think sometimes mercy and grace It's kind of get misconstrued and we start feeling like we're on our own to prove that we're worthy to God or to prove that we're good enough or to change. So from your experiences, maybe, [00:04:00] how did you start realizing that mercy and grace Or integral in helping people change. Alan: Yeah, that's a great question. One of the, you know, I, I felt so privileged to serve in a YSA ward first and foremost to work with YSAs because they're just so faithful and forward looking so positive about their lives. So that, that was really a wake up call as to how I needed to focus as a bishop. I was also very privileged to work with state leadership that had, in my opinion, really the right view of mercy and grace first and foremost, and a very forward looking, looking and positive in all of their interactions with the youth. And that was just super inspiring to me. So that helped me. I think get a good running start to my experience there. Crishelle: Oh, [00:05:00] that's, that's so perfect. I think sometimes too it can get this rap that, Oh, I need to go see the bishop because I've messed up and I'm going to be punished. Or I'm gonna, like, so I can get my punishment. Or so that I can prove that I'm doing enough or to check and see if I'm doing it. , I feel like there's sometimes just an idea that gets in the way of us. Realizing that the role of the bishop and the role of the church is really to help us come and receive Christ's grace and his mercy and his help. Alan: Exactly. Crishelle: Can you can you speak to that or maybe maybe share an experience or story of how How you've seen that happen for people? Alan: Yeah, that let me, let me just give some, a couple of thoughts that have guided me all my life and, and then I'll give, give some examples of that. Crishelle: Yeah, that'd be great. Alan: for some reason, I've always been drawn to Alma 32. And I [00:06:00] think many of your listeners probably have too. There's something really powerful going on there. But one of the things that's most interesting to me is that Alma, as he talks about taking the word, treating it as a seed, nourish planting it in our hearts, giving place that we do not cast it out by our own belief which is so easy to do. And then the promises that he gives us, we nourish this. So this is really independent of the word that we're nourishing. He gives promises. about being that our soul will be enlarged and our minds will be enlightened. That's a really cool promise when you think about it. And it's, it's directly correlated with the action of nourishing the Crishelle: Yeah Alan: which could be anything, right? Crishelle: right and I I've always loved Alma 32 and especially the part where it talks [00:07:00] about not just Not casting it off initially, if it's a good or bad seed, but allowing it to really sit, like giving space for it in your life. And, and, and that word nourishing, and I, I think that that's really powerful because especially in today's world where I feel like if it's not instant gratification or if it hasn't worked by tomorrow, then okay, we're going to try something new. I think that this idea of really giving something space and nourishing it and allowing it to grow is pretty meaningful and a pretty powerful invitation that's kind of different than the imitations of the latest like self help book and it generally, right? Alan: Yeah. So it is powerful. And when you think about those words being enlarged and enlightened, that's Really the opposite [00:08:00] of what many of our young people feel today, feelings that more towards darkened and diminished sometimes, right? Crishelle: Yeah, Alan: And so this promise is pretty compelling. And, and the question is, how do I achieve that in my life? How do I make that more available? Crishelle: yeah, Alan: And this really is a testimony by Alma of God, Christ. power, his grace and mercy in, in our lives. So how do you tap into that grace and mercy? That is what the seed is for or nourish the seed is for. So it's the act of nourishing that produces that side benefit. Now, of course, nourishing a seed will produce its own fruit. If I nourish corn, I'll get corn. If I nourish chastity, I'll get, Chastity, I'll get the fruits of that, right? If I nourish honesty, I'll get fruits of [00:09:00] honesty. But Alma's talking about just the fruits of nourishing. So, so if I plant corn, that's going to take 90 days before I get corn. Crishelle: Right. Alan: But he's talking more immediately. you feel these, feel these swelling motions, you'll begin to say within yourselves, You, you feel this, this enlarging and enlightening. So these are immediate blessings Crishelle: I love this. I don't know if I've ever considered that the act of nourishing and that the fruit of the act of nourishing is this, that the enlightenment that's really beautiful. Really, really beautiful. That like, the act of gardening brings, brings incredible blessings in your life. Even before the fruit of whatever it was that you planted. That is really cool. Alan: that's an important [00:10:00] truth because the fruit of the seed that we nourish is really tough to manage. You can be a great farmer and nourish well, and. The environment can destroy your crop, Crishelle: Mm hmm. Right. Mm Alan: You can be a great parent and nourish well, Crishelle: hmm. Alan: the environment can destroy your crop. I mean, we live in difficult times Crishelle: Right. Alan: there are just so many barriers, challenges out there for our children, for example, so. Crishelle: But even in, even in our lives, and I, I, I think of

like the years that I was single, I felt like I was like, I'm doing all of the things to not be single, but I was still single because there's another person's agency involved. Right? Like there's, Alan: nourishing this seed. Crishelle: right. And and, and even now, right. Like in, even in my marriage [00:11:00] and, and with my children, I think that is so true. Like there's so many things I do to nourish good behavior from my toddler. That is not always what we get. Alan: Somehow the environment is, is quite the barrier. Crishelle: Totally. And so I think that's really fascinating is that often there will be other factors that maybe get in the way of that, but the, the nourishing or the act of creating space and, and seeking God and, and teaming up with God to grow something really is where we receive some, it's like where we get strong. I just think of like going to the gym and getting stronger at the gym that it. The weight is the means to me getting stronger as opposed to the end, Alan: Yeah, well said. Exactly. Whether you win some weightlifting ribbon or something, independent of that, by getting out there every day and, and nourishing that [00:12:00] seed, Of health. You're better off. You're off rough. Crishelle: other benefits from the the action. That's very very cool So how does this tie in specifically as we are striving to change in receiving grace and mercy? Like how does nourishing connect with grace and mercy? Alan: Yeah. So let's talk about that. I'll try and give an example. Just remembering some of these is, you know, these are spiritual experiences, sacred experiences, really, when you work with young people in their challenges. So it's hard to, you know, recall these sometimes, but without, without getting emotional. So I apologize about that. But but I'll give an example. I, I ran into one of the sisters in our ward who I knew really well, just so faithful and just such a great. Woman in every way. And she we, [00:13:00] we were hiking. I ran into her and asked her how she was doing. And she told me that she thought she was, that engagement was near. And I knew the young man as well. And And I asked her how she felt about that. And she expressed some concern that he has a problem with pornography. And I'm worried about that. So we talked about what are you worried about? What, what are the concerns there? And one of the things that she brought up that was most. burdensome to her and, and the relationship was that all we do is talk about pornography. Crishelle: Mm hmm. Alan: are you doing with it? Did you, did you succumb to it? You know, this kind of thing. And and just the challenge that comes from, from those conversations, it just constantly weighed on her. And she felt [00:14:00] She felt a role that she didn't want to play, like a policeman, or a parent, or a bishop. I don't want to be that person. I want to be a partner with him. So, I asked her, well, what do you want to talk about? Instead of pornography, if you're not going to talk about pornography, what do you want to talk about? Crishelle: Yeah, Alan: And she gave just such a beautiful answer. I want to talk about the gospel scriptures, Christ. I want to talk about our careers. I want to talk about family and all these things that we're going to do and build and create together. So I asked her, well, why don't you talk about that? Crishelle: yeah, Alan: Stop talking about pornography, talk about the seeds that you want to plant together, gospel seeds, seeds of your family. You know, how are you going to raise your kids? Why don't you talk about that? Crishelle: yeah, Alan: she did, she ran [00:15:00] with that. And of course you can't just, there's no magic wand that says, okay, well then pornography doesn't exist, but she took a different tact with it and really looked at, you know, the, the positive side, so in essence, inviting. Alma's promises into their relationship. We're going to plant and nourish good seeds in our relationship. That's going to be our primary focus. We're going to get that enlarging and enlightening experience in our relationship now. And I'm going to leave the weeds. I like to refer to this as the seeds versus the weeds, because these weeds can be brutal. And I want to talk about that a little bit too, but, but more powerful is this. mercy and grace extended by Christ as we plant and nourish good seeds. He is the source of all truth. He is the [00:16:00] source of these seeds and he wants us to nourish those because the promises are so great, right? Your relationship will be overwhelmed when you nourish good seeds. And a lot of times when you think about it, Like if you think about your yard, if you, if you have a front yard, I mean, we don't weed our front yards, right? You have a nice front yard. You don't weed it. Crishelle: No. And you can kind of tell, but... Alan: why don't we weed our front yard? Crishelle: no, I think, I think this is really cool because primarily I try to focus on growing the grass as opposed to weeding the weeds. Right and like enriching the grass and I think that's really cool because I feel and I just want to I want to add this Thought I felt like initially, they were probably talking about pornography and they were like white knuckling it and it was probably had a lot of [00:17:00] anxiety and like Oh, we got to make sure and like like do it myself and and they probably wanted to save yourself They probably wanted To, to have faith in regards to it. And they probably felt like, Oh, we're doing this because we, we have faith and we believe in, in all of these things. Right. But their anxiety and their focus on it was distracting from them actually using their faith and building and growing and nourishing these other aspects that actually brought the Savior in and I'll, and empower them to rise above. The struggle and I think that that is so interesting and beautiful that often often the the the temptation is

that if we focus on the weakness if we if we like hyper analyze and, and, and get distracted by the weeds and that's all we see, then that's really all we'll see. And it will be very difficult to even [00:18:00] feel Christ's grace is in there. Whereas if we are striving to. Build and to grow and to walk the covenant path and to just live our lives. Like, go have fun, go eat some ice cream, make some ice cream, like go and do. You're going to see incredible fruit in, in change and growth as you strive to become and, and you grow those aspects. And I just thought that was just an interesting thing that I was seeing is like the anxiety versus the faithful action. And, and how beautiful that example is. Alan: And the anxiety really, if you, if you follow Alma's analogy is the absence of the nourishing. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: The darkening and diminishing that we feel in the absence of enlarging and enlightening that comes from the [00:19:00] nourishing. So you're exactly right. The focus on the weeds has no power Crishelle: Right. Alan: by itself to produce what Alma promises. And there's really no scripture available anywhere that says, take down the weeds and you'll be enlarged and enlightened. It's just not a part of the equation. Crishelle: Right. Alan: so it does make you think, well, what, so what is the, you know, weeds are part of the equation, so how, Crishelle: Right. Alan: and you know, I think there's some analogies I could share with this, but just the quick answer is that weeds really. SAP take nourishment from the seeds, why we remove them from our garden because they're taking the water, they're taking the sunshine, they're introducing. Often they're a source of protection for [00:20:00] disease or for insects that can destroy our crop. Crishelle: Right. Alan: is the truth of pornography, right? It has the potential to do some real damage. Crishelle: Definitely. Alan: we can't ignore it, but back to this, you know, by nourishing good seeds, we're enlarged and enlightened. So our, we're more prepared in the battle. And as we talked about with the grass, the grass itself will crowd out the weeds Crishelle: Right. Alan: and, and at least make the battle easier, if not eliminate it altogether. know, people who are so busy planting and nourishing seeds have a lot less time for pornography and a lot less interest in it because it's not attractive compared to the enlarging and enlightening, whatever thrill or excitement it produces in the moment, you know, it diminishes so quickly, right? Crishelle: Right. Alan: Like, like [00:21:00] anything that's not a true seed. You, you nourish it and it produces something, which is why we go back, but it's not sustained. It's gone versus, you know, the nourishing a good seed, it enlarges and enlightens us as we do it. And it produces fruit and value in the long run. So. We can sense the value here. We know. And so nourishing seeds, the there's just no comparison in where we

should be putting our effort, Crishelle: right. Yeah, I'd definitely rather, you know, grow tomatoes as opposed to dandelions, you know. As much fun as blowing those little dandelions is , with my little toddler. I guess it's way better to eat the tomato. Alan: A tomato sandwich, you know, Crishelle: Yeah, so good. So, so good. And I, I, but I love that analogy too. And that was [00:22:00] something I was talking about with a friend as like, like the world's view of sexuality. And what's portrayed in pornography and what is portrayed in many movies is, it's fast, it's exciting, it looks very appealing, it seems fun, but what the Lord has given us as far as eternal families and the eternal relationship of a man and a woman together, building that and then having sexuality and all of that together is so much more Richer and deeper and like more long lasting and profound kind of like what you're talking about with the two seeds And I think that that is a beautiful analogy because it is very true Then as you are working more towards those those true principles and acting in true doctrine You're going to have so much better fruit and so much better harvest in every area of your life[00:23:00] Alan: that's right. And, you know, it's really hard to be the support person for somebody who's struggling with. With an addiction and it's hard to know, you know, those conversations can be so hard and, and so uninteresting, honestly. And, and I'll tell you, even as a bishop, people coming in and saying, Hey, I have Bishop, I have a problem with pornography. You know, can we meet and meeting with them regularly is very helpful, right? Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: to them, it's very helpful, but when they would come into my office with that, I would tell them right off, okay, you know, let's meet every week. Let's meet as often as you want to and whatever is helpful to you, I will do. But one thing I won't do is talk about pornography every week because guess what is an uninteresting conversation. Pornography and did you look, you know, how are you doing with [00:24:00] those conversations get so old so quick Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: and but I do, I find conversations with people about the seeds that they're planting and nourishing in their life to be very interesting. They're stimulating, they're inspiring, you know, they give me ideas. Oh, I could plant seeds like that, or I could do that. So it's a mutually edifying conversation when you're, when you're doing that. So as a support person, whether it's a Bishop or a spouse or a friend, you know, those conversations are much more interesting and honestly, much more valuable for the reasons we just talked about. Crishelle: Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. And I feel like it even gives more room for the Savior to be a part of when you're building as opposed to just trying to avoid. That you'll end up finding, finding the Savior. Helping you and, and receiving his grace and mercy [00:25:00] and help you're just going to notice it more because you're actively trying to build as opposed to just trying to avoid. Alan: I love you that you brought that up and, you know, God and Christ are first and foremost creators, right? They are seed planters. And I think it's interesting, actually, if you look at Genesis. Chapter one. I mean, right from the beginning, our first introduction to God is he created the heaven and the earth. And then verse two is I love Abraham chapter four, verse two, more than how it said in Genesis one, two, But he says, the earth after it was formed was empty and desolate. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: And do you know what comes right after that part? Crishelle: Is that when he brings the light? Alan: That's, that's the result. But after he says the phrase, it was empty and desolate, he says something really interesting. Really obvious, [00:26:00] but interesting. Because they had not formed anything but the earth. Crishelle: Interesting. Yeah. Alan: So when an earth is formed, and we know this now, when all the earths out there that are formed, They're all empty and desolate, right? Crishelle: hmm. Alan: Because he hasn't done anything with it. And then, to your point, Chris Allitt, then the rest of Genesis chapter 1 is really about what does God do when he runs into something that's empty and desolate? Crishelle: He creates Alan: He buries it. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: Brings in light, the soil, Crishelle: Mm hmm. Alan: the seeds. In other words, this is what he does. So of course we feel that connection to him when we're doing the same thing. Crishelle: I especially love this idea of, if they're creators and I'm a daughter of God. That means I too am a creator. What more can I be doing? What more can I be creating? What more can I be [00:27:00] be growing in the areas in my life that maybe feel desolate or maybe feel like they are just are maybe sapping away from that creative energy? Whether that is pornography, I think President Nelson in his latest conference talk, I think said so many of them, like whether it's debt or social media or pornography or drugs or like all, there's so many things that can be creating that void and creating that desolation where as we see, And we're like trying to fill it with those things. We're trying to fill and like fill the numbness and, and there's a little bit of a payoff, but as opposed to like that counterfeit, if we'll do the, the true thing, which is to create and to grow and to nourish good fruit we will become the creators that we were born to be. Alan: Yeah, [00:28:00] well, well said, well said. Crishelle: I really, really love this discussion. Is there, has there ever been someone, maybe an experience that you've had where someone felt like they were just beyond the reach of mercy and grace? Alan: Yeah, one of the interesting things and I I noticed as a bishop was that often people who would come in and talk, I would ask them how they felt about God or their

relationship with God or who did they believe? What kind of God do they believe in? And almost universally, especially with women, I felt like there was a view that God is merciful and kind Crishelle: Mm Alan: to other people. But not to be that sense that somehow I'm not feeling that. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: And again, obviously [00:29:00] that conversation leads to, okay, well, what could we nourish that might help you feel his mercy and grace? Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: But I think that that's a heart rendering thing and, and anything we can do to encourage each other to nourish good seeds. You know, any way that we can help each other in this is, I think, crucial. That's the kind of people we need to be. And a lot of the conversations out there in the world, it's unfortunately sometimes we're part of them. Sometimes I'm part of them in my relationships, you know, we can go negative. It can be so easy to do that. And we have to be positive and strengthening and encouraging. And we need to be inspired with each other about what. Each other's gifts are understanding the gifts that people have and calling those out, Crishelle: hmm. Alan: expressing [00:30:00] confidence in those gifts that you can do things with those. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: You know, because whatever a person is struggling with however damning or difficult that is, On the other side of the coin is the reality, the truth that they have gifts and that by exercising those gifts, by using them, Crishelle: Mm hmm. Alan: they're going to nourish. That's what the gift was given for, was to nourish. And so if we can shift the focus away from the, the challenges and to the gifts. You know, and all of us can feel that about each other. I think that's some place the spirit will always inspire us in our relationships if we're willing. He will tell us as we talk to people what those gifts are so we can encourage Crishelle: Yeah. I Alan: and then Crishelle: really like [00:31:00] that. I think, I think it's interesting too that you said that so often we are like, yeah, God is loving and he is all those things, but not for me. And I think that's interesting because I often think about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and how they partake of the fruit and they realize that they're naked and Satan then says, hide. He's like, go and hide, right? And, and it's so fascinating. I'm like, I wonder why they felt, it's just, it's just fascinating because I don't think that any of their experiences with God to that point. would have like led them to that conclusion of, of like, I should hide from him. No, they loved him. They loved when he came and saw them. They looked forward to it. They were always looking for him to come again. Right. At least that's what the scriptures lead me to believe about Adam and Eve. And, and I, I know I'm kind of reading between the lines [00:32:00] there. We don't have all of that information, but I, I think it's interesting that the temptation to hide or to think that you are with, without. You're without the reach of His grace and mercy, without the reach of His love, comes from Satan. Alan: Right. Crishelle: that He wants you to think that God is loving, and He is merciful, and He is great, and He loves all of His creations, except for you right now, because you messed up and you're naked. So go and hide. Alan: Yeah. Crishelle: And, and so, yeah, as you were sharing that about about the people so often, and I, I know I've, I've been there, you know, where I was like, yeah, he does love people, but I haven't felt his love in a while, you know, like where was he when, when I was hurting, where was he when this happened and it hurt me more? Like it, it can be, it can be so easy. And it can be so [00:33:00] tempting to fall into the hide, to, to hide from God and to believe that you are without his, his love because you've been found naked, right? And I, I think that's just so interesting how and I, and I love your point of let's, let's encourage each other, let's nourish. How do we, when faced with the temptation to hide, how do we maybe not hide initially? And nourish the seed. Alan: yeah, I I think it's good to remind ourselves of, of good scripture, you know, that manifests who God really is. Crishelle: Mm Alan: And there's so much, right? I just want to look one up here while we're talking. So I don't do it an injustice, but one of the great ones, not going to find it. One of the great ones though is in second Nephi. Where let me see if I can [00:34:00] find it. Crishelle: I just thought of 2 Nephi, the psalm of Nephi, chapter 4. When Nephi is, and maybe that's not where you're going. When Nephi's like, wallowing. And then he has this moment where he's like, but wait. This is what God's done for me. And feel free to go wherever you're gonna go, but that was the one that came to mind. Alan: no, that is a great one for sure, because, you do see him kind of falling into despair, but then reminding himself of how merciful, Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: The, I want to just maybe I'll, I'll come back to that if I can think of this, but. I'll give an example while I'm kind of trying to remind myself of the scripture, but early on when I was bishop in the Y S A ward, I was really surprised to have a young man who had come in. I'd already met him once because he was new in the ward and we had a brief meeting, but then he came in soon after that to say to tell me that he had a, a problem with pornography. But the way he did [00:35:00] it was he came into the office, he sat down without saying a word, he. His recommend and his vial of oil priesthood holder. He uses that vial of oil for healings, right? So he passed that across the desk towards me without saying anything. So I asked him, what, what is this? And he said, this is I'm. You know, I need you to hold on to these because I've been looking at pornography. And honestly, I, I feel like our culture, the church culture sometimes can

contribute to feelings like that. Right. And I think the church is doing a lot to change that. I'll come back to that point, but he felt so strongly that I'm not worthy. Right. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: To, to go to the temple or to use my priesthood to [00:36:00] help people. But do you know what my feeling was in that moment? And it's always been that ever since. Crishelle: What's that? Alan: Push that right back to him and tell him, actually, what you need to be doing is using this temple recommend and using this vial of oil. I hope you're ministering the time it was visiting or home teaching. I hope you're home teaching. People reach out to you and ask for a blessing and I want you to give them one if they do. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: And, you know, you can't just blanket make a statement that that's okay. Right. There are times when it makes sense, perhaps to ask a person to wait, but generally speaking, a faithful young man, which this young man was, who's striving to, to make a living. He's already educated himself. He served a mission. He's [00:37:00] He's developing a career. He's coming to church. He's coming to talk to his bishop about things. This is a faithful young man, right? There is not a bone in my body as a bishop that says, yeah, stop. Everything is screaming to me. No, keep doing the things you've been doing. You use your priesthood. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: In fact, the worst thing you could do is not use it right now because Then what are you nourishing? Crishelle: Right. Alan: You need to nourish the people you've been called to nourish. And yeah, you've stumbled, but this is a wake up call to fix that. But get out there and nourish and strengthen. And President Hinckley, I need to get out the exact quote, but in a pamphlet about pornography, he has said that the temple should [00:38:00] repentance process. Crishelle: Yeah. Alan: It can't be set aside. Crishelle: Right. Alan: It needs to be part of our, our repentance. And guess what? You know, there are people who have looked at pornography in the temple and there are people who are nasty, mean people or impatient and unkind that are in the temple, but that's what the temple is for is purify and strengthen us. So, you know, that's the God we worship. He knows who we are. He knows our weaknesses, Crishelle: Yes. I love this so much because I think that that worthiness piece of like, I'm not worthy. Here's my recommender. I'm, I need to go see my bishop because I'm not worthy or I need to go see my bishop to see if I'm worthy. Like my understanding is that I will never be worthy on my own. Alan: right?[00:39:00] Crishelle: never ever, and not even at my best am I worthy on my own, and, and so like shifting that, knowing that it's, it's, it's His grace, His grace is sufficient, and, and Christ, I, I, never will my efforts be sufficient. To help me enter the temple even on my best day, right that I enter into the temple on his grace that I serve and I Mother and I wife like I do all of the things like I will never be able to do those things perfectly on my own Like for a million and a half reasons, but with his grace, I am, I am made worthy. I am made sanctified. I am made clean and my effort is accepted as I [00:40:00] seek him in doing those things. And so I, I love that you passed the recommend back to him. I had a conversation with my My brother and he was struggling and and we won't get into the details there But we were just talking about this and I was like, well, why would you stop doing those things? As part of your repentance that are the things that are going to help you to repent. And like, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Because like taking those things away, what does that create in your life? How does that bring you closer to God? Alan: Yeah, exactly. Crishelle: And I'm so, I, it warms my heart and my soul. It just fills me with so much joy that. I'm not the only one who thinks that, you know, that, that you, that you are, and, and that we are, we are, and, and I know I'm not the only one who thinks that, but we are seeing the shift as opposed to like, like you need to be perfect and do all [00:41:00] these things on your own. But I feel like even the shift in, in what the, the leadership of our church shares is, is to remember that it's through His grace. That you are sufficient. To walk the covenant path with him. To not walk that on your own, but to walk it with him. To allow your experiences, to allow your worship, to allow your service, to help you to come to know and see God in your life. And to hear him, and to walk with him. Alan: Well said. Well said. And to me, worthiness is more, isn't a question of how pure or clean we are, because obviously, to your point, we could never go to him clean because we can't get there without going to him, right? That would be quite the conundrum, but worthiness isn't a measure of righteousness, worthiness, and righteousness aren't the same thing. Worthiness is more a measure of your desire to become like [00:42:00] him, submit your will to his will, to follow him, to trust him, to take his seeds, to nourish them. That's why somebody like Alma the younger or Saul could. Hear God have a desire to serve him, and in that very unworthy state, or that very unrighteous state, I should say, Crishelle: Right. Alan: find themselves worthy because I want to, I intend to. I'm going to serve you, and all of us can ask the question as we go, you know, after a week. of making mistakes and being impatient and unkind and, and looking at pornography or whatever it is we're struggling with. All of us can wake up on Sunday morning and ask sincerely, who do I want to be? Who am I? Who do I want to follow? Do [00:43:00] I want to follow Christ? And if that answer is yes, you should be taking the sacrament. You should be doing everything you can to follow it. Crishelle: right. Oh, Alan: you're right, there is a shift in the leadership of

looking at it that way. It's, I think it's becoming more and more rare actually that you see sort of these funny standards of, Hey, go without looking at porn for 30 days or 60 days or 90 days, and then you can go back to the temple. I, I feel like those days are behind us as a Crishelle: hallelujah. Yes, yes, I just think that that's so beautiful and such a good thing and so important for each of us to remember that it's not our righteousness that makes us worthy. It's His grace that will always make us worthy as we are seeking Him. [00:44:00] His grace will always reach us. Alan: Yes, Crishelle: Oh, what a beautiful testimony you have shared about that and just a beautiful witness of, of the truth that we, we'll, never be without the reach of his grace and his mercy. Alan: infinite means infinite. Crishelle: Yeah, which is hard for us to wrap our little finite brains around, but yes, Alan: I did find this scripture that I wanted to share from 2nd Nephi. He doeth not anything, this is 2nd Nephi 26 24, speaking of Christ. He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world. For he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life, that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, this is the key, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation. And as if that wasn't enough, he [00:45:00] just keeps going at it, right? Does he say, does he cry unto any, depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, but he saith, Come unto me, all ye ends of the earth, by milk and honey, without money and without price. And he just, that's, he just keeps going. He just drives this point home. He doesn't say to any, depart from me. None. He always wants us to come. Anyone can plant and nourish. It doesn't matter where. Saul killed Christians. Think about this guy. Crishelle: right, Alan: Christ is saying, come, nourish some good seeds. Get into the game here. Crishelle: Or Alma the Younger, who was the vilest of sinners, right? Like, Alan: exactly. I love that. I love how Mormon labels [00:46:00] him because it kind of helps you see, okay, I'm not, I'm bad, but I'm not the vilest of sinners. I guess I can be in the game. And that's the cool thing about it though. Anyone, it doesn't matter who you are, Rich or poor, black or white, male or female, you know, older, young, firm, or infirm. It doesn't matter who you are. Anyone can plant and nourish a seed, can do something and the grace will pour in. Crishelle: the grace will pour in. I love that. Oh, Ellen, this has been such a beautiful, beautiful discussion. And I mean, I feel like my life is enriched and enlightened and, and I feel more motivated to, to grow good seeds in my own life. So thank you so much. Thank you. Alan: thanks for the opportunity to talk about this. This has been [00:47:00] a lot of fun. Really Crishelle: Yeah, it's been, that's what I love when we come to the end of these things and I was like, this is so fun. Let's do it again. That's how I know we had a good one. So this, thank you for joining us today, Alan, and I hope you have a great day. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Silence by Reach 10. Break the silence and help us create a culture of courage and compassion by sharing what you learned today with someone you love. Help us reach more people by rating and reviewing us on iTunes or liking and leaving a comment on to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reach 10 is a non profit. You can help support this podcast by donating on our website and following us on social media. We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests Do not constitute [00:48:00] as professional advice or services, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10. We do not guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture. Keep breaking the silence.