บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Brain Melt Episode Five: Little Nightmares

actually pick some movies 74 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:18.209 where we, we watch them again and we think, I 75 00:04:19.050 --> 00:04:23.439 don't know if this actually fits the mission. And I 76 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:24.920 think we're going to have some stuff to say about 77 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:25.920 that in this episode. 78 00:04:27.500 --> 00:04:31.899 Perfect. Perfect lead in really. So I was so pumped 79 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:35.290 because we were building this around the second movie we're 80 00:04:35.310 --> 00:04:37.269 going to talk about today, which is the secret adventures 81 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:39.970 of Tom Thumb. And so, you're giving me an option 82 00:04:39.990 --> 00:04:42.110 to pick something that fits that thematically. And I was 83 00:04:42.129 --> 00:04:45.839 so excited to go revisit Volker Schlondorff's, the tin drum. 84 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.740 And in my mind, this was a slam dunk choice 85 00:04:49.819 --> 00:04:53.160 for what we're doing. Um, because the premise of this 86 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:58.040 movie is fucking nuts. Like it's, you know, there's a 87 00:04:58.100 --> 00:05:01.920 kid that at age three just decides to stop growing 88 00:05:03.259 --> 00:05:07.779 and he continues to age mentally. Um, But he has 89 00:05:07.819 --> 00:05:15.870 an arrested development or a suspended pre-adolescence. And he has 90 00:05:15.930 --> 00:05:18.490 the same body for his whole life. And he goes 91 00:05:18.550 --> 00:05:24.490 through all the typical milestones of development as a little person. 92 00:05:24.949 --> 00:05:29.939 And we'll get into this movie a lot. But in 93 00:05:29.980 --> 00:05:31.759 my mind, there's so many crazy things that happened to 94 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.000 this boy. And it was extremely controversial when it came out, 95 00:05:35.500 --> 00:05:37.230 which we can get into a little bit. but I 96 00:05:39.050 --> 00:05:41.930 thought this was like a slam dunk for, for brain melt. 97 00:05:42.589 --> 00:05:43.569 So it was on the list. 98 00:05:43.709 --> 00:05:47.000 I mean, I did too. Um, I hadn't seen this 99 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.819 movie in about 20 years, um, before tonight. And, uh, 100 00:05:52.300 --> 00:05:54.089 at the time when I first discovered it and I, 101 00:05:54.220 --> 00:05:56.399 I think I had only ever seen it maybe twice 102 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:58.439 at most. I'm pretty sure I'd seen it once by 103 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.759 myself when I bought the DVD, the criterion DVD. 104 00:06:01.569 --> 00:06:03.209 And then I know I watched it then. And then 105 00:06:03.230 --> 00:06:04.589 I watched it again with some friends. 106 00:06:05.149 --> 00:06:08.649 Um, a few years after that, which might be why 107 00:06:08.689 --> 00:06:13.470 they stopped letting me pick the movies. Um, so it 108 00:06:13.490 --> 00:06:15.189 was that and say, low, I think we're the ones 109 00:06:15.209 --> 00:06:18.250 that did it. But, uh, yeah, I remember this movie 110 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.579 being like, in my mind when I was creating the 111 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:22.439 brain melt list, I was like, Oh, the 10 drum 112 00:06:22.579 --> 00:06:25.959 fucking checks every box. And, and really like in a 113 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.480 way it does because it's insane. 114 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.709 It's obscene. It's, it's grotesque. 115 00:06:31.610 --> 00:06:36.230 It's, you know, it's brain meltingly insane, but at the 116 00:06:36.250 --> 00:06:40.990 same time, like it's respected, but it's been sort of like, 117 00:06:41.009 --> 00:06:43.269 I don't know, forgotten is the right word, but I 118 00:06:43.269 --> 00:06:44.790 don't know when the last time you heard somebody mentioned 119 00:06:44.810 --> 00:06:46.899 this movie was for me, I don't think I've ever 120 00:06:47.300 --> 00:06:51.199 just in, in conversation online or in person with movie bus, 121 00:06:51.779 --> 00:06:53.019 this movie has never come up. 122 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.060 No, no. I think it's, it's just, it's also, how. 123 00:06:56.980 --> 00:06:58.459 Is nobody talking about the tin drum? 124 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.040 It's extremely uncomfortable, first of all. 125 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:02.680 It's very uncomfortable. 126 00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:06.120 There were so many moments during this movie where I 127 00:07:06.139 --> 00:07:09.620 was like, Jesus! Because the kid was 11. We had 128 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:11.839 to say this up front. The main actor who played 129 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:14.620 this was not a little person who they put baby 130 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.930 makeup on and then made it an adult. This was 131 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:21.610 an 11-year-old boy. I just think that's important to know 132 00:07:21.689 --> 00:07:24.250 for what we're about to talk about. 133 00:07:24.290 --> 00:07:29.860 Yes. Yes, it's not a three-year-old. So don't worry. 134 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.899 But it's not a man like this is not an adult. 135 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:34.980 This is not an 18 year old. You know, like 136 00:07:35.139 --> 00:07:39.079 I know, you know, Eastern Europe, the law, the consent 137 00:07:39.259 --> 00:07:40.879 age of consent might be a little different, but I 138 00:07:40.899 --> 00:07:45.000 don't think it was 11. Yeah, this movie, this movie 139 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:47.819 created quite a stir when it was released. 140 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:51.699 And what was that year, Chris? Because you're good with facts. 141 00:07:51.699 --> 00:07:53.879 1979 is when it came out. 142 00:07:53.899 --> 00:07:54.300 Yeah. 143 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:56.959 So 79, well, you know, it's really funny. So 79 144 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.990 is when it came out and it caused quite a stir. 145 00:07:59.449 --> 00:08:01.490 It won the Palm door. It ended up winning an 146 00:08:01.529 --> 00:08:03.689 Academy award. So it's not like this movie was like, 147 00:08:04.910 --> 00:08:08.870 like

trashed, which is kind of crazy. Cause when you 148 00:08:08.889 --> 00:08:10.370 think about it too, like not to get on a 149 00:08:10.410 --> 00:08:15.860 tangent here, but with how safe the Oscars play it now, imagine, 150 00:08:15.980 --> 00:08:18.860 imagine a time, right. Imagine a time when something like 151 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:20.699 the tin drum won an Oscar like that. 152 00:08:21.269 --> 00:08:25.720 That's just fucking crazy. We used to be, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. 153 00:08:25.740 --> 00:08:27.379 This was a society at one point, you know? 154 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.939 Um, but it, it also, it had, it made quite 155 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.809 a stir in Canada, um, in around 1980, uh, when 156 00:08:35.269 --> 00:08:38.289 Canadian authorities, uh, in Ontario, they cut the film, they 157 00:08:38.350 --> 00:08:40.669 banned it. Um, they called it child pornography. 158 00:08:40.690 --> 00:08:41.889 Yeah. 159 00:08:41.929 --> 00:08:45.909 Um, and then there was also in, you know, 1997, 160 00:08:45.909 --> 00:08:50.110 I think it was in Oklahoma. Um, they're, they had 161 00:08:50.129 --> 00:08:53.350 some weird strict anti-pornography laws. And, uh, there was a 162 00:08:53.389 --> 00:08:56.789 group there. Um, I can't remember what it was called. 163 00:08:56.830 --> 00:08:57.409 I wrote it down. 164 00:08:57.529 --> 00:09:02.669 Oklahomans for children and families for some reason, you know. 165 00:09:02.909 --> 00:09:07.120 Got onto the tin drum in 1997. And, uh, and 166 00:09:07.149 --> 00:09:09.419 there was a whole to do about it. And, um, 167 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:12.620 some judge, he watched the movie. He only watched a 168 00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:16.879 part of it, decided that it violated Oklahoma, uh, obscenity laws. 169 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:21.710 And literally, uh, in 1997, there were cops breaking down 170 00:09:21.750 --> 00:09:24.330 people's doors. Maybe not necessarily, but like going into people's 171 00:09:24.350 --> 00:09:27.269 homes and seizing copies of this movie. They were literally 172 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.019 going to like blockbuster and getting information on who had 173 00:09:30.100 --> 00:09:33.320 rented this and we're going to these people's homes. Um, 174 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:36.240 so that's just crazy. And then eventually it went to 175 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.779 court and, uh, it got struck down. Um, but it really, 176 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.580 you know, caused a lot of commotion. 177 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:44.039 Um, yes. 178 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:47.360 And for stupid reason, I mean, obviously there's no like, 179 00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:49.519 this 11 year old kid's not fucking in the movie. 180 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:52.789 Like there's, there's some veiled and some not so veiled 181 00:09:52.870 --> 00:09:53.700 references to it. 182 00:09:55.309 --> 00:09:58.750 I mean, it's certainly worth a conversation, right? Like it's, 183 00:09:58.929 --> 00:10:02.659 it's

hard to, say like, there's nothing weird in this movie, 184 00:10:04.220 --> 00:10:06.679 but like, this is the whole point of censorship, right? 185 00:10:06.740 --> 00:10:08.899 Like you can't, this is the whole point of art 186 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.700 censorship and art is you can't find a line. So 187 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:14.840 if you can't find a line and it's not illegal, 188 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.460 then like just, and then ultimately common sense prevailed and 189 00:10:17.500 --> 00:10:21.080 everything was like relaxed. But yeah, can you imagine just 190 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.779 having your name on a record because you rented this? 191 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:25.139 That sucks. 192 00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:27.539 Yeah, everybody who rented the tin drum is on some 193 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:29.460 FBI list still to this day, I'm sure. 194 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:32.879 Or they went and dug it up because the new 195 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:34.830 regime wants to do that kind of stuff. 196 00:10:35.070 --> 00:10:35.230 Right. 197 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:38.309 Which is keeping in the spirit of Schlondorf's thing. I 198 00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:40.210 do want to mention, before we get into the movie 199 00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:44.669 too much, Schlondorf is not only the director of this movie, 200 00:10:45.149 --> 00:10:47.929 but he's also one of the lesser talked about names 201 00:10:47.990 --> 00:10:51.789 from new German cinema. And so, you know, he was 202 00:10:51.889 --> 00:10:55.309 part of this, you know, like the French New Wave 203 00:10:55.350 --> 00:10:57.379 and like the Japanese New Wave and Czech New Wave 204 00:10:57.409 --> 00:11:00.399 and different things. So that movement was called New German Cinema. 205 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:02.539 Yeah, with Fassbender. 206 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:10.419 Yep, Fassbender, Herzog, Uli Lammel, Wolfgang Peterson, Strauss-Hullier and Wim Wenders, 207 00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:14.720 Wim Wenders, whatever. So like a ton of Marguerite von Trotta, 208 00:11:14.740 --> 00:11:19.129 like there's a ton of amazing directors coming out of this. And, uh, 209 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:21.899 you know, Schlondorf certainly had, uh, I would say two 210 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:25.659 like really big hits. So he, he made a lot 211 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:28.200 of movies, but this one, and then the last honor 212 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.120 of Katerina bloom were two that, well, I guess you 213 00:11:31.139 --> 00:11:32.940 could say death of a salesman. So maybe three. 214 00:11:33.419 --> 00:11:33.600 Yeah. 215 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.559 Really kind of like, you know, he was like a 216 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:37.720 well-known director in the seventies and eighties and he, and 217 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:39.840 he was, you know, getting money and financing to make 218 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:45.769 more movies and, um, certainly a competent director. Um, So, 219 00:11:45.909 --> 00:11:47.769 but

he's, people don't really talk about him now, which 220 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:48.690 I do think is interesting. 221 00:11:49.549 --> 00:11:51.809 Yeah, no, none of those three movies, you know, the 222 00:11:51.830 --> 00:11:54.460 tin drum or the other two you mentioned, um, are, 223 00:11:54.580 --> 00:11:57.879 are really, they're, they're still well regarded. 224 00:11:57.919 --> 00:11:58.259 I'm sure. 225 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.460 I mean, if you, if you talk to people who 226 00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:02.980 have seen it that, you know, they hold it in 227 00:12:03.019 --> 00:12:06.799 high esteem, but it's certainly not, these aren't movies that 228 00:12:06.850 --> 00:12:09.750 anybody's like jumping to talk about. 229 00:12:09.950 --> 00:12:10.210 Right. 230 00:12:10.450 --> 00:12:14.629 So, um, which I think is why we dug it up. Uh, 231 00:12:14.830 --> 00:12:17.659 and I, I'm glad, honestly, I'm glad you chose it. Um, when, 232 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:19.440 as soon as you did, you know, you said it 233 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:22.360 was a slam dunk. I was like, yeah, okay. 234 00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:23.539 Yup. It fit the theme. 235 00:12:23.620 --> 00:12:25.799 It was, you know, uh, it was, I, it's great 236 00:12:25.820 --> 00:12:27.480 to have a reason to go back and revisit some 237 00:12:27.500 --> 00:12:29.460 of these movies, which is another reason why I love 238 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:34.169 that we're doing this. Um, so yeah, man, let's talk 239 00:12:34.210 --> 00:12:34.409 about it. 240 00:12:34.870 --> 00:12:36.710 Let's talk about it. Well, I think I would, I 241 00:12:36.730 --> 00:12:39.210 would love for you to do if you have this ready, 242 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:41.049 if not, I can do it, but you know, we 243 00:12:41.070 --> 00:12:43.629 always talk about intros and this is a funny intro 244 00:12:43.669 --> 00:12:47.429 to me. Because we see an 11 year old boy 245 00:12:47.470 --> 00:12:48.070 being born. 246 00:12:48.090 --> 00:12:50.279 Yeah. 247 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.460 But he's like, there's that creepy shot of him, like 248 00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:56.659 in the womb where he's like staring from behind a 249 00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:57.460 uterine wall. 250 00:12:57.899 --> 00:13:01.539 Yeah. And it's, it's like, it's so fucking unsettling. 251 00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:03.870 Like I was watching the movie just alone in my 252 00:13:03.899 --> 00:13:06.149 room and I had to turn a lamp on. 253 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:10.190 Like I was so disturbed by it. It's so fucking weird. 254 00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:11.889 And actually, you know what? 255 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:14.259 I'm going to say this now because otherwise I'm a 256 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:17.779 hundred percent going to forget when we get into Tom Thumb. 257 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.950 But do you, did you realize before right now? 258 00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:23.570 Cause I didn't until we just said it, that both 259 00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:26.389 of these movies open with the main character in utero. 260 00:13:27.029 --> 00:13:30.190 Oh, hell yeah. That's right. No, I, I'm so glad 261 00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:31.590 you said that. I wouldn't have called it. 262 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:35.470 What a fucking coincidence. Right. And both are like almost 263 00:13:35.570 --> 00:13:36.210 equally creepy. 264 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:37.980 That's true. 265 00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:41.179 So, yeah, that's true. Yeah, man. 266 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:44.179 Like we, we are on a roll with movies that 267 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.960 have like either bizarre openings or like really memorable openings. 268 00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:53.659 Yeah. And in a, in a, in a move where 269 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.320 I don't quite understand the significance of this and I 270 00:13:56.379 --> 00:13:58.559 meant to dig into it and I didn't, so sorry everybody, 271 00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:02.340 but he, you know, he fully understands English or German, 272 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:04.120 I guess in this case, and he fully understands like 273 00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:06.899 his mom speaking to him. And she says, when you 274 00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:09.539 turn three, you're going to get a tin drum. And 275 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.360 that's like he bases his entire life off of that 276 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.039 moment when he turns three, which is like, I don't know. 277 00:14:18.220 --> 00:14:20.279 I don't know. Anyways, I don't know the significance of that. 278 00:14:20.350 --> 00:14:22.129 But he like he was all in on this tin 279 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:22.710 drum idea. 280 00:14:22.730 --> 00:14:23.870 Oh, yeah. 281 00:14:23.909 --> 00:14:25.870 He was he was like, oh, man, I got something 282 00:14:25.889 --> 00:14:27.610 to look forward to. I just got to make it three. 283 00:14:27.889 --> 00:14:30.870 But it's weird because he's already it's almost like that 284 00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:35.389 Benjamin Button thing where he's already he's already older mentally 285 00:14:35.409 --> 00:14:38.740 than his body is. So when he, you know, hits 286 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.789 three years old and first of all, he's in the 287 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:42.909 weirdest family. 288 00:14:42.669 --> 00:14:44.809 Dynamic you've ever seen. 289 00:14:44.830 --> 00:14:45.370 We'll talk about that. 290 00:14:46.070 --> 00:14:46.450 Yeah. 291 00:14:46.610 --> 00:14:48.950 Like it gets weird, but he hits three and he's like, 292 00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:50.649 all right, I got my drum. I'm good. Like, this 293 00:14:50.690 --> 00:14:50.899 is it. 294 00:14:50.909 --> 00:14:53.350 This was my end game. Everything else from here is 295 00:14:53.389 --> 00:14:57.580 just icing on the cake. So, I mean, if he 296 00:14:57.620 --> 00:15:00.299 just throws himself down some stairs, which apparently if you 297 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.460 throw yourself down some stairs, you're just going to stop growing. 298 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:03.799

Yeah. 299 00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:05.399 That's an interesting thing. There's like a, so there's a 300 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.080 party at their house. And somebody leaves the cellar door 301 00:15:10.149 --> 00:15:13.019 open and downstairs is a bunch of wine. It's like 302 00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:17.259 a wine cellar, I guess. And he places his drum 303 00:15:17.299 --> 00:15:19.399 down because he doesn't want to hurt the drum. And 304 00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:21.100 then he walks like three quarters of the way up 305 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.039 the stairs, pushes all the wine down that's up in 306 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:29.090 like shelving kind of, and then just jumps basically and screams. 307 00:15:29.649 --> 00:15:33.750 And then the mom and one of the dads comes in. 308 00:15:33.769 --> 00:15:34.549 We'll get to that in a second. 309 00:15:34.710 --> 00:15:35.029 Yeah. 310 00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:40.379 Yeah and like see him on the floor and then 311 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.039 for the rest of this dad's life he has to 312 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:45.279 live with the fact that he didn't close the cellar 313 00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:48.559 door and so his son stopped growing at three years old. 314 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:53.230 Which he doesn't realize this was this was all deliberate 315 00:15:53.250 --> 00:15:55.190 this wasn't an accident this was this was a choice 316 00:15:55.210 --> 00:15:58.889 on uh on what the hell's his name oscar yeah 317 00:15:59.230 --> 00:16:03.320 yeah um So yeah, like you said, he's got two 318 00:16:03.370 --> 00:16:05.950 dads because we don't know who his dad is. You 319 00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:10.450 have his mom, Agnes. She's married to Alfred, who, what 320 00:16:10.470 --> 00:16:11.929 is he? He works in a grocery store. 321 00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:14.610 Yeah, it's the Mario Adorf. 322 00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:16.029 It's the grocery store, yeah. 323 00:16:16.149 --> 00:16:18.519 It's the grocery store, but it's also the Mario Adorf. 324 00:16:18.620 --> 00:16:22.919 I love that guy. He becomes, as he grows up, 325 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:25.840 he becomes Mario Adorf, who's one of my favorite Italian actors. 326 00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.000 Do you recognize that face from a lot of the 327 00:16:28.059 --> 00:16:28.830 Italian crime movies? 328 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:30.509 Yeah. You know what? 329 00:16:30.610 --> 00:16:31.970 It's funny now that you say, cause when I was 330 00:16:32.029 --> 00:16:35.710 watching it, I was like, he looked very familiar, but 331 00:16:35.730 --> 00:16:37.070 I didn't bother to look it up. 332 00:16:37.210 --> 00:16:37.889 So that's great. 333 00:16:37.909 --> 00:16:39.789 I'm sure I've seen him in, I bet if I 334 00:16:39.809 --> 00:16:41.350 go on letterbox and I look him up, I've probably 335 00:16:41.370 --> 00:16:43.269 seen six movies with him in it at least or something. 336 00:16:43.929 --> 00:16:44.809 Oh yeah. Yeah. 337 00:16:44.850 --> 00:16:45.210 He's great. 338 00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:46.230 That's awesome. 339 00:16:46.629 --> 00:16:52.470 And, uh, but then Agnes is also, she's fucking Jan, uh, 340 00:16:52.549 --> 00:16:56.399 a Polish man. So, so here's Oscar has no idea 341 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.080 who his dad is. He's, and, And that's one of 342 00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:04.200 the really interesting things about this movie is after Oscar 343 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:09.420 stops growing, his mind continues to evolve. And he turns 344 00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:12.410 into this like, you know, he goes through all the 345 00:17:12.470 --> 00:17:13.549 things that people go through. 346 00:17:13.589 --> 00:17:13.750 Right. 347 00:17:13.789 --> 00:17:17.710 He goes through adolescence. He he goes through like essentially 348 00:17:17.769 --> 00:17:22.160 puberty in his mind. He has a sexual awakening. but 349 00:17:22.180 --> 00:17:26.339 he also becomes a very cynical, very like manipulative, uh, 350 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.140 shitty person because he's a, he's sort of, um, a 351 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:33.079 victim of circumstances. He's a, he's a creation of his environment. 352 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.619 And because he looks three years old, everyone around him 353 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.420 is sort of forgetting that he's not three. So they're 354 00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:43.900 doing things and saying things that, I mean, you've got 355 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:45.259 kids or you have, you have a son. 356 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.359 I have nieces and nephews and stuff. 357 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:50.880 Uh, we all tend to be a little bit more 358 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:54.099 open when we're around these kids, when they're that age, because, well, 359 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.220 they don't understand, they don't know, you know, but in 360 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:00.430 this movie, he knows, like he gets it. Like he sees, uh, 361 00:18:01.789 --> 00:18:04.829 his mom fucking around with Jan and, uh, gets this 362 00:18:04.910 --> 00:18:10.069 very distorted view of sexuality. And, uh, and that just 363 00:18:10.109 --> 00:18:13.549 really informs his entire, uh, narrative arc through the movie. 364 00:18:14.349 --> 00:18:17.740 Um, just really quickly on Jan. just because we don't 365 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.460 have to go through the whole cast or anything, but 366 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.059 I just thought it was interesting. So Mario Adorf, who 367 00:18:22.099 --> 00:18:25.339 plays the husband, is this well-known... I mean, he's been 368 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.900 in all kinds of movies, but most of his movies 369 00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:31.259 are Italian exploitation movies. That's how I got to know him. 370 00:18:31.299 --> 00:18:33.900 It's in German exploitation movies. And then the other, Jan, 371 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.549 I don't know if you recognized his face, but he's 372 00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:40.849 been in something like 180 Polish movies. This guy was

always. 373 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.259 So he was the one that I recognized right away 374 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:50.190 because he's in, um, Gaga Gloria to the heroes, um, from, 375 00:18:50.970 --> 00:18:52.049 I don't know how you say his name. 376 00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:56.910 Um, Zulkin, Zulkin. Oh, Peter Shulkin. 377 00:18:57.470 --> 00:19:03.750 There you go. Shulkin. Perfect. Totally make the sh sound. Yep. Uh, sorry, everybody. 378 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:06.819 I'm uncultured. Um, I'm American. 379 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:07.430 What do you want from me? 380 00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:10.619 But that's a phenomenal movie. I fucking love that movie. 381 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:14.039 That collection that Vinegar Syndrome put out and then Radiance 382 00:19:14.059 --> 00:19:15.799 put out. I think they put out a trilogy where 383 00:19:15.819 --> 00:19:17.200 Vinegar Syndrome put out the four. 384 00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:19.680 Incredible. Incredible. 385 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.440 And also now that I'm looking at his letterbox, he's 386 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:24.160 also in Salt with Angelina Jolie. 387 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.119 So there you go. And he's in the Decalogue. Look 388 00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:28.380 at that. 389 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:34.630 Yeah. He's just in everything. And one of the screenwriters 390 00:19:34.650 --> 00:19:38.400 was Jean-Claude Carrier who was like a foundational writer for 391 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.700 the French new wave. So it's just interesting. Like they got, 392 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.240 I mean, you know, this is by all accounts, a, 393 00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:47.990 an art house, like favorite movie. 394 00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:49.450 Absolutely. 395 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:53.400 And, fucked up we would be remiss to not talk 396 00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:56.930 about um or at least mention david bennett uh who 397 00:19:56.970 --> 00:20:01.329 plays oscar and anybody who sees this movie if you 398 00:20:01.369 --> 00:20:04.589 were a child in the 80s or the 90s uh, 399 00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:07.950 if he looks familiar, it's because he, uh, is, um, 400 00:20:08.829 --> 00:20:14.220 Gump from legend, which is what I knew him from originally, obviously. And, uh, 401 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.079 he's like, like in a movie with Tim Curry as 402 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:22.720 the devil, Gump is still somehow the creepiest character. Uh, 403 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:24.730 I don't know what, I don't know what he's supposed 404 00:20:24.750 --> 00:20:26.990 to be. He's supposed to be like, uh, what's that? 405 00:20:27.069 --> 00:20:33.160 What's the, um, it's like, uh, mythological or like folkloric 406 00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:36.079 sort of character where it's, uh, like pan where he's 407 00:20:36.099 --> 00:20:38.029 got the flute and he, you know, he's on like 408 00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:42.029 earhoofs basically. Uh, great, great character, great actor. And he 409 00:20:42.069 --> 00:20:44.450 does

have sort of a congenital issue, right? Like he, 410 00:20:44.630 --> 00:20:46.230 he does have, I don't know if it's a form 411 00:20:46.250 --> 00:20:51.509 of dwarfism or, um, or what, but he, he, he 412 00:20:51.589 --> 00:20:52.970 is rather odd looking. 413 00:20:54.069 --> 00:20:56.390 Well, in the sense that he looks exactly like Frankie 414 00:20:56.410 --> 00:20:57.369 Munoz or. 415 00:20:57.650 --> 00:21:02.119 He looks just like Frankie Munoz. He absolutely does, dude. 416 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:05.940 But then he was 19 when he played Gump, and 417 00:21:05.980 --> 00:21:07.980 he was still very childlike. 418 00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:12.849 He never really... I don't know. Weird. Anyway. 419 00:21:14.650 --> 00:21:22.720 I'll start casting crew. Now, this is a... I don't 420 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:25.079 want to get too much into this, because to be honest, 421 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:29.859 I'm not prepared. There's a ton... Like, there's a ton, 422 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.700 I mean, the sense that this is a whole, like, 423 00:21:33.259 --> 00:21:39.099 you know, semester-long course on authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and, like, this 424 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:44.150 is an open polemic against these, well, Nazi Germany. 425 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:45.089 Yep. 426 00:21:45.589 --> 00:21:48.670 And probably, he probably meant it broader as, like, against 427 00:21:48.730 --> 00:21:51.349 any kind of authoritarian regime. But, like, this is a 428 00:21:51.390 --> 00:21:53.549 very clearly, like, an anti-Nazi movie. 429 00:21:54.789 --> 00:21:57.390 It's anti-Nazi, but at the same time, it's told from very. 430 00:21:59.019 --> 00:22:02.960 Nazi sympathetic points of view. So it's really interesting the 431 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.480 way I'd love to read the book. Um, I, I 432 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.059 plan to read the book after having rewatched this now. Um, 433 00:22:10.299 --> 00:22:14.130 but yeah, it's so when the Nazi regime falls at 434 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:15.170 the end, you know, I don't want to jump to 435 00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:17.990 the end, but like it is played as sort of tragic. 436 00:22:18.650 --> 00:22:19.670 Um, sure. 437 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:25.359 And, and obviously it mirrors the beginning, um, the early scenes, um, 438 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:29.730 with in Danzig with the rise of Nazism, um, Um, 439 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.200 but yeah, it's, it's just, there's one specific scene that 440 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:37.940 I really love. And, uh, what, what kind of really 441 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:40.579 sums it all up the whole like take on Nazism 442 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.940 in this to me was so, so Oscar's got his drum. 443 00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:46.609 It's his favorite thing in the world. He takes it 444 00:22:46.650 --> 00:22:47.390 everywhere he goes. 445 00:22:47.650 --> 00:22:49.289 He's always got his drum, but this is not like 446 00:22:49.309 --> 00:22:53.829 an innocent little children's toy. It's Oscar uses this drum 447 00:22:54.049 --> 00:23:00.039 to cause calamity and stir up shit. he's a bit 448 00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:02.859 of an asshole and when he wants to be an 449 00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:07.849 asshole he uses his drum to cause chaos he can 450 00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:11.269 also scream really high pitched and break glass so that's 451 00:23:11.309 --> 00:23:12.529 his superpower. 452 00:23:14.289 --> 00:23:16.390 I think it's very important that he becomes a Nazi 453 00:23:16.430 --> 00:23:19.450 sympathizer for the story to make sense because in my 454 00:23:19.490 --> 00:23:24.230 mind that scream is representative of the chaos and calamity 455 00:23:24.299 --> 00:23:27.000 that the Nazi party brought to something beautiful. 456 00:23:27.339 --> 00:23:32.039 I think his whole character sort of is, is essentially that. 457 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:35.099 But there's that one great scene where the Nazis are 458 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:39.039 marching and they're marching to a very steady rhythm and 459 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.190 Oscar uses his drum to try to fuck with them. 460 00:23:41.490 --> 00:23:42.210 Yeah. 461 00:23:42.369 --> 00:23:45.690 And instead of throwing them off their rhythm, literally the 462 00:23:45.730 --> 00:23:48.549 Nazis just adapt and it just turns into this like dance. 463 00:23:50.230 --> 00:23:53.250 And it's really, it's, it's surreal and it's kind of beautiful, 464 00:23:53.269 --> 00:23:55.019 but it's also sort of very fucking weird. 465 00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:57.920 Cause you know, it's, nazis so. 466 00:23:58.819 --> 00:24:01.140 Yeah the drum seems to give him a superpower where 467 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:04.559 he'll go like on the snare drum and then scream 468 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:05.640 like you said i'm not gonna do. 469 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.559 It yeah do it chris do it. 470 00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:11.599 And then he can he even gets like just like 471 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.700 uh i guess like an x-men movie or something when 472 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:16.099 they're learning their skills like he gets more and more 473 00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:20.019 precise with his screams so like at the end there's 474 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:22.339 this interesting scene where he goes all the way from 475 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.119 just breaking like a whole house of glass to where 476 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:29.339 he can inscribe a heart on a crystal glass for 477 00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:31.039 a woman that, that he's going after. 478 00:24:31.059 --> 00:24:32.500 So such a great thing. 479 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.640 Yeah, it's good. It's well done. Yeah. But like, you know, he, 480 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.349 so he, he's progressing mentally. There's just many ways that 481 00:24:38.380 --> 00:24:41.950 you can like, look at that. But there is something 482 00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:43.789 that I think is probably worth talking about as a 483 00:24:43.809 -->

00:24:49.250 story goes on. Just so as you mentioned that he's, 484 00:24:49.670 --> 00:24:52.970 so his mom, I'm not quite sure who she's supposed 485 00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:56.829 to represent, but, she's with a Polish guy and a 486 00:24:56.849 --> 00:24:57.470 German guy. 487 00:24:58.230 --> 00:24:58.410 Yep. 488 00:24:59.269 --> 00:25:03.089 And, um, uh, I guess there's no, we have to 489 00:25:03.130 --> 00:25:06.089 kind of talk about spoilers cause it isn't like we don't, 490 00:25:06.130 --> 00:25:07.730 maybe we don't have to talk about the entire movie, 491 00:25:07.769 --> 00:25:08.509 but I do think. 492 00:25:08.369 --> 00:25:10.369 It's hard to talk about the movie without spoiling some things. 493 00:25:10.710 --> 00:25:13.410 Yeah, exactly. Like this movie continues to change and become 494 00:25:13.450 --> 00:25:16.059 different things. It's like two hours and it's a three 495 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.480 hour movie. 496 00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:19.500 Essentially it's two hours and 40 minutes and change. 497 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:22.359 So, I mean, and it's, it's essentially like, it is 498 00:25:22.420 --> 00:25:25.630 almost like an odyssey, uh, where it's like, it's told 499 00:25:25.690 --> 00:25:26.710 in sort of these vignettes. 500 00:25:28.490 --> 00:25:30.829 Well, and, and, and people keep dying, right? So his mother, 501 00:25:31.210 --> 00:25:33.369 his mother dies. And that's like the first tragic event. 502 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:34.549 I think it's the first tragedy. 503 00:25:34.730 --> 00:25:38.630 And her death is fucking weird. Like there's that. 504 00:25:40.059 --> 00:25:41.750 Do you want to, I kind of want to spoil it. 505 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:43.140 Cause it, to me, it's one of the like most 506 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:45.519 memorable scenes in the movie. 507 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:47.480 No, we have to, it's only like midway through the movie. 508 00:25:47.500 --> 00:25:49.140 So it's not even, I mean, there's so much that happens. 509 00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:49.980 Yeah. 510 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:51.039 Go ahead. 511 00:25:51.829 --> 00:25:55.230 Well, I'm trying to remember. There's so much that happens 512 00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:57.710 in this movie, it makes your head spin. But there's 513 00:25:57.769 --> 00:26:03.890 a scene with... She becomes obsessed with eating fish. And 514 00:26:03.930 --> 00:26:06.509 it's really fucking gross. There's literally a scene where you're 515 00:26:07.230 --> 00:26:09.519 watching her biting the heads off of these fish and 516 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:13.859 just chewing them. So, first of all, great dedication by 517 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:17.619 the actress. And it's just really gross. 518 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.460 Well, my interpretation of that whole thing is that her 519 00:26:21.500 --> 00:26:25.720 husband becomes a huge Nazi, right? He's got like the 520 00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:29.150 flea decked out. He's got the costume. He's like, so excited. 521 00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:31.549 He's like a kid. He's like, so excited to go 522 00:26:31.589 --> 00:26:34.269 to the rallies and like, Oh, like they're, they're using me. Like, 523 00:26:34.630 --> 00:26:37.630 you know, he's presented in this way of like almost innocence. 524 00:26:39.789 --> 00:26:43.930 And she hates it. And she, he gets into canned 525 00:26:44.630 --> 00:26:47.119 fish business. It's eels, I think. 526 00:26:47.190 --> 00:26:47.390 Right. 527 00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:51.130 And, And so he starts canning these eels and she 528 00:26:51.190 --> 00:26:55.349 hates it. And then, yeah, so she eats herself to 529 00:26:55.410 --> 00:26:57.269 death on these eels. And there's a moment where she 530 00:26:57.329 --> 00:27:01.690 kind of switches. And the way that I felt when 531 00:27:01.730 --> 00:27:04.019 I was watching that, I hope, sorry, Volker, I think 532 00:27:04.059 --> 00:27:06.960 Volker's still alive. So if you're listening, Volker, sorry, if 533 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:10.900 I'm ruining your interpretation here. But the way that I 534 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.160 read it was that, like, look what happens when you 535 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.640 go all in on Nazi propaganda and like Nazi. 536 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:25.289 Commerce and economies. It's just like it's meant to represent. 537 00:27:25.670 --> 00:27:27.569 She was like, all right, you know what? Fine. You 538 00:27:27.589 --> 00:27:30.009 want me to do this? I'm going all in, knowing 539 00:27:30.029 --> 00:27:31.269 that it was going to be her death. 540 00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:34.109 Yeah. 541 00:27:34.589 --> 00:27:40.980 She's just become so overwhelmed by everything that's happening. Her pregnancy, 542 00:27:41.180 --> 00:27:43.519 her relationship with these two men, the rise of fascism 543 00:27:43.539 --> 00:27:49.269 and Nazism. And yeah, the eels just sort of represent that. 544 00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:54.269 And then she just overdoses on misery and then, and 545 00:27:54.289 --> 00:27:54.789 then dies. 546 00:27:55.690 --> 00:27:57.900 And it's, it's a very weird scene. 547 00:27:57.980 --> 00:27:59.339 And I know the first time I watched it, I 548 00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:01.859 did not pick up on anything other than, I just 549 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:05.859 thought it was just gross out, you know, filmmaking this 550 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:10.769 time watching it with, you know, twice as much life experience. 551 00:28:11.890 --> 00:28:15.710 The movie definitely hits different. So, but a great scene, 552 00:28:15.809 --> 00:28:19.000 like really, really great. Um, it's, it's so easy. 553 00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:20.599 It would be really easy to just go through this 554 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:22.440 movie scene by scene. Like we could talk about the 555 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:27.160 post office scene. Um, you know, but I think some 556 00:28:27.220 --> 00:28:29.190 things should be left for anybody who wants to watch 557 00:28:29.210 -->

00:28:31.670 this because it's, it's a great movie. 558 00:28:33.329 --> 00:28:35.390 I totally agree. I do think it's worth mentioning. There's 559 00:28:35.450 --> 00:28:37.430 a third guy and I can't remember if he's with 560 00:28:37.450 --> 00:28:39.950 the post office or a different store. I think he 561 00:28:39.970 --> 00:28:42.130 might be the toy store owner, but he's sort of 562 00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:46.670 like another father figure in Oscar's life. Um, he's the 563 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:48.359 one who gives him a free drum when he finds 564 00:28:48.410 --> 00:28:51.619 out his drum was broken and the one who offers 565 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:55.559 to take him to London to like start over. And 566 00:28:55.579 --> 00:28:57.779 I thought, I just thought it was interesting that it's like, 567 00:28:57.819 --> 00:29:03.089 there's these, the, Jodorowsky is another one that did this 568 00:29:03.130 --> 00:29:06.210 all the time. Like mothers and fathers are all over 569 00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:06.750 his movies. 570 00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:07.869 Right. Oh yeah. 571 00:29:08.250 --> 00:29:10.329 And so I think Schlondorf here, well, I mean, granted 572 00:29:10.390 --> 00:29:13.339 it's from a novel, so maybe the author of the novel, but, 573 00:29:13.829 --> 00:29:15.970 It seems to me like there's an obsession with the 574 00:29:16.049 --> 00:29:19.359 father and the mother. So maybe the motherland, maybe the 575 00:29:19.420 --> 00:29:22.400 father is like the Fuhrer. I don't know. But the 576 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:26.279 other father is a Polish guy. And it just, in 577 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:29.680 my mind, that just has to represent the tension between 578 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:31.470 Germany and Poland leading up. 579 00:29:31.420 --> 00:29:33.750 To the war. Absolutely. 580 00:29:33.890 --> 00:29:35.769 And one of those, you know, I mean, one of 581 00:29:35.809 --> 00:29:41.279 those two fathers is more passive and more gentle. The 582 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:43.460 other one is the one who's like literally toe fucking 583 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:47.019 her under the table while she's holding hands with the 584 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.480 more passive one. So, you know, there's an aggressive sort 585 00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.779 of element there. So, yeah, I mean, you know, there's 586 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:58.140 there's literal outright blatant people in Nazi uniforms in this movie. 587 00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:00.089 But then there's also a lot of things that are 588 00:30:00.109 --> 00:30:05.140 supposed to represent both sides of that conflict. And in 589 00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:09.119 the middle you have Oscar, this bizarre little fucking dwarf, who, 590 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:14.420 as the movie progresses, gets into the parts that really, like, 591 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.200 all these things that are very strange are not what 592 00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.200 caused any kind of commotion with this movie or any 593

00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:20.220 sort of, like, controversy. 594 00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:21.980 It was really once he meets Maria. 595 00:30:22.009 --> 00:30:26.349 So after his mom dies, after some time passes, They 596 00:30:26.369 --> 00:30:31.960 bring a 16-year-old girl who was 29 when she made 597 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.039 this or something. She was well into her adult years, 598 00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:39.869 just for what it's worth. But a 16-year-old girl into 599 00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:41.910 the house to help around the shop and to help 600 00:30:42.049 --> 00:30:44.650 just around the house and stuff. So go ahead, Maria. 601 00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:49.990 Yeah, Maria. And like you just said, she's well into 602 00:30:50.029 --> 00:30:50.670 her adult years. 603 00:30:50.690 --> 00:30:52.930 She's playing a 16-year-old. You've got David Bennett, who's playing 604 00:30:52.950 --> 00:30:57.339 a 3-year-old and is actually 11. Three-year-old physically, you know, 605 00:30:57.799 --> 00:30:59.299 older than that mentally. I think at this point in 606 00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:02.380 the story, he's essentially a grown man inside his mind, 607 00:31:04.539 --> 00:31:05.420 which is very weird. 608 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:09.900 And he falls in love with Maria. 609 00:31:11.109 --> 00:31:15.730 And there's a scene, there's this great scene where Oscar 610 00:31:15.789 --> 00:31:18.869 is licking, like, ice cream out of her belly button, 611 00:31:20.789 --> 00:31:23.450 which is kind of fucked up. And then, you know, 612 00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:28.970 there's some suggestion of sexual activity between the two of them. Um, 613 00:31:29.910 --> 00:31:33.490 nothing is shown, nothing graphic happens, but there's, it's definitely 614 00:31:33.529 --> 00:31:34.910 enough to like kind of put you off and make 615 00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:37.319 you feel uncomfortable, which is obviously the intention. 616 00:31:37.900 --> 00:31:42.059 Um, well, there's no doubt that they fuck in the 617 00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:43.019 movie because, Oh. 618 00:31:43.059 --> 00:31:44.079 They, they definitely have sex. 619 00:31:44.779 --> 00:31:45.119 Yeah. 620 00:31:45.140 --> 00:31:46.430 Yeah. We just don't see it. 621 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:51.819 So, uh, I just don't want anybody listening to think like, listen, 622 00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:56.369 it's weird. So for me personally, I, I mean, I 623 00:31:56.410 --> 00:31:58.589 can't think of anybody that's like, yeah, I fucking love pedophilia. 624 00:31:58.990 --> 00:32:00.170 Aside from maybe Donald Trump. 625 00:32:00.329 --> 00:32:03.809 Sorry. I had to, man. I had to. 626 00:32:04.910 --> 00:32:08.349 But things like depictions of stuff like that in movies 627 00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:12.809 tend to really sort of. They're very repellent to me. 628 00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:17.509 I don't like movies where like kids are molested and 629 00:32:17.549 --> 00:32:19.230 things like that. Like there are some there are some 630 00:32:19.269 --> 00:32:22.619 good movies that have those elements in there. But here's 631 00:32:22.630 --> 00:32:23.059 a good example. 632 00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:24.119 Right. Moonrise Kingdom. 633 00:32:25.190 --> 00:32:28.910 I think it's the worst Wes Anderson movie. It's, it's 634 00:32:29.130 --> 00:32:32.009 so fucking terrible. Not just for the scene that I 635 00:32:32.069 --> 00:32:34.289 hate more than anything, but like just in general, that 636 00:32:34.309 --> 00:32:37.289 movie sucks. But there's that one scene on the beach 637 00:32:37.329 --> 00:32:39.269 where the, the two kids are in like a tent 638 00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:41.990 and then they're like in their underwear dancing. And it's 639 00:32:42.009 --> 00:32:45.829 very like, it's, it's like too overly sexualized with. 640 00:32:45.769 --> 00:32:48.869 These young kids. And I remember watching in the theater 641 00:32:48.890 --> 00:32:51.630 and I was like, what the fuck? Yeah. 642 00:32:51.650 --> 00:32:52.130 That's weird. 643 00:32:53.369 --> 00:32:55.269 This did not make me feel that way. 644 00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:57.339 I did not feel any kind of way watching this 645 00:32:57.380 --> 00:33:01.960 where I was like grossed out because it's for somebody 646 00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:07.640 with half a brain, uh, it's easy to see there's 647 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:11.440 distinctions here. Like there's, there's a more complex narrative. There's, there's, 648 00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:16.039 you know, uh, a lot of play. It's an artistic film. Uh, 649 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.059 and it just, it didn't, it didn't. 650 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:20.720 Bother me at all the way a lot of those 651 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:21.180 things do. 652 00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:24.240 So, I mean, I can see why some people at 653 00:33:24.259 --> 00:33:26.539 the time and maybe later, you know, if you have 654 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:30.180 a very like puritanical view and you take everything literally, 655 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.700 I can see why you'd get upset. But I don't 656 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:35.720 think there's, I think it was all kind of a 657 00:33:35.779 --> 00:33:36.819 nothing burger with this movie. 658 00:33:37.299 --> 00:33:39.400 I think you could probably draw some parallels to the 659 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:43.019 rape scene in Irreversible in the sense that there's enough 660 00:33:43.059 --> 00:33:46.380 of a movie around it where it you're like, okay, 661 00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:48.619 like the director probably went a little bit too far, 662 00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:50.869 but like, there's still a movie there. 663 00:33:51.089 --> 00:33:51.329 Right. 664 00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:53.009 It's not just purely exploitation. 665 00:33:53.829 --> 00:33:54.670 Well, thank you. 666 00:33:54.710 --> 00:33:56.369 That's, that's kind of what I was driving at. It's, 667 00:33:56.490 --> 00:33:59.450 it's not just, it's not just there for the sake 668 00:33:59.490 -->

00:34:02.609 of being there. It actually serves a purpose and, uh, 669 00:34:02.910 --> 00:34:07.460 and drives a narrative. Um, but yeah, so they definitely fuck. Um, 670 00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:12.179 and he falls in love with her, but, uh, she's 671 00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:14.659 more of almost like a surrogate mother figure to him. 672 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:15.559 Yeah. 673 00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:19.199 At least in her own mind. And she ends up, 674 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:22.780 she ends up getting involved with, who's she getting involved with? 675 00:34:22.820 --> 00:34:23.679 Is it Jan? 676 00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:26.980 So no. So yeah. So it was kind of an 677 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:31.380 important scene because he, like they go to this guy, 678 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.010 Alfred is going out of town for something, probably a 679 00:34:34.050 --> 00:34:34.570 Nazi rally. 680 00:34:34.610 --> 00:34:34.889 Who knows? 681 00:34:35.610 --> 00:34:38.630 And so he's like, go, go upstairs and sleep with Maria. 682 00:34:38.909 --> 00:34:41.110 Like meaning just like go to sleep with her. 683 00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:42.000 Right. 684 00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:44.019 Because he thought he wanted his son to feel safe. 685 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.960 So they get into their nasty games. 686 00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:49.099 And then. 687 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:54.550 In the morning, what I felt was the morning or 688 00:34:54.590 --> 00:34:57.050 like within a couple of days, he walks into the 689 00:34:57.170 --> 00:35:00.210 room and he sees his dad just like plowing Maria. 690 00:35:00.789 --> 00:35:04.409 But not only is that happening, but she's like into it. 691 00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:06.900 Oh, yeah. Because they have a relationship. 692 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:10.559 She literally gets into a relationship with him, which drives 693 00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:13.980 the whole sort of mother element even further, which you 694 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.070 can tell is kind of fucking with Oscar's brain a 695 00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:16.429 little bit. 696 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:21.110 Yeah. And she yells at him for never using a condom. Like, 697 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:24.409 you're not careful. Something like that. 698 00:35:25.210 --> 00:35:28.389 She doesn't want to get pregnant, and he's all out 699 00:35:28.590 --> 00:35:30.429 pulling prey. Yeah. 700 00:35:31.550 --> 00:35:33.579 And it doesn't work, so she gets pregnant. 701 00:35:34.219 --> 00:35:37.920 Well, hold on. Why doesn't it work, Chris? You remember? 702 00:35:37.940 --> 00:35:39.280 Oh, my gosh. 703 00:35:39.619 --> 00:35:40.639 Because Oscar's a little prick. 704 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:41.739 Because he jumps on the back. 705 00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:43.500 He's a vindictive little prick. 706 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:48.559 So he knows because, again, they're saying more and showing 707 00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:51.050 more than they would in front of this kid if 708 00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:55.909 they realized who he is inside. And he knows that 709 00:35:56.010 --> 00:35:57.590 this is what this guy's doing. 710 00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:01.010 He's playing a dangerous game here. So he decides, all right, 711 00:36:01.030 --> 00:36:02.570 you know what? Fuck you. I'm going to get revenge. 712 00:36:02.929 --> 00:36:04.679 So he literally jumps on his back. 713 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.900 At the moment where he's about to climax and forces 714 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:09.510 them to get her pregnant. 715 00:36:09.969 --> 00:36:13.889 And it's very weird. It's such a bizarre scene. 716 00:36:15.869 --> 00:36:19.550 But then he, he sort of like fucks himself because not, well, 717 00:36:19.969 --> 00:36:22.409 I guess I should use different wording because of praising. 718 00:36:23.269 --> 00:36:28.179 Yeah. Praising. He, he does himself a disservice because this 719 00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:29.280 is his revenge. 720 00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:29.539 Right. 721 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.090 But then now he has to literally be raised by the, 722 00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:36.380 with the woman he loves because he does love Maria. 723 00:36:36.429 --> 00:36:40.760 He's in love with her. Um, and now watches, she has, Oh, 724 00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:47.110 I get his brother, I guess. Um, and another child. So, 725 00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:51.110 you know, he kind of, oops, he goofed a little bit. 726 00:36:51.710 --> 00:36:59.420 Yeah. Yeah. So we, you know, there's this movie continually has, um, 727 00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:06.219 oscar i think is represented as somebody who number one 728 00:37:06.260 --> 00:37:09.360 can't get out of his own way but he's also 729 00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:13.920 a vindictive person but he's also still a kid i 730 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.090 mean you know like even though he's. 731 00:37:16.630 --> 00:37:18.690 A coming of age story more than anything it's a. 732 00:37:18.670 --> 00:37:21.449 Coming of age story that's well said yeah exactly so 733 00:37:21.489 --> 00:37:24.670 he's still learning and like he just keeps having tragedy 734 00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:28.619 after tragedy like So, you know, he doesn't really want 735 00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.320 his talent of being able to break glass with his 736 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:34.730 voice to be discovered. But then his life just falls 737 00:37:34.769 --> 00:37:38.730 to shit. And there's this really nice circus performer who's 738 00:37:38.769 --> 00:37:41.809 also a little person who's like, come join us. And 739 00:37:42.570 --> 00:37:43.349 so he does. 740 00:37:43.489 --> 00:37:45.849 I'm trying to remember what his name is. It begins 741 00:37:45.869 --> 00:37:48.230 with a B. It's like Egba or something like that. 742 00:37:48.889 --> 00:37:50.250 Yeah. 743 00:37:50.329 --> 00:37:50.530 Yeah. 744 00:37:50.570 --> 00:37:51.750 Bebra. Yeah. 745 00:37:51.809 --> 00:37:52.730 Bebra. That's what it's Bebra. 746 00:37:53.260 --> 00:37:58.250 Yeah, that's

right. The second time he tries to court Oscar, 747 00:37:58.289 --> 00:38:01.150 there's somebody with him who becomes a love interest for 748 00:38:01.210 --> 00:38:08.010 Oscar named Roswitha. They go on and tour and he 749 00:38:08.050 --> 00:38:10.550 does great in the circus and he's building his kind 750 00:38:10.590 --> 00:38:15.260 of life there. Again, the war ruins everything for him. 751 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:16.860 He's an asshole, yes. 752 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:21.769 Well, I think it's not so much that he's an asshole. It's, 753 00:38:21.789 --> 00:38:24.769 he's a complicated character and he's a victim of circumstance. 754 00:38:24.789 --> 00:38:27.010 Like I said earlier, he's a, he's a product of 755 00:38:27.090 --> 00:38:31.039 his environment. He, he really was giving, he wasn't given 756 00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:33.440 a shot right from the beginning. I mean, he's thrown 757 00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:38.019 into nothing but family chaos followed by, you know, political 758 00:38:38.059 --> 00:38:42.860 chaos and war. And he's really just trying to get by. And, 759 00:38:43.090 --> 00:38:46.030 and he's also his decision to stop growing. It seems 760 00:38:46.070 --> 00:38:51.989 like it's, I don't know if he, is unable to 761 00:38:52.050 --> 00:38:55.010 reverse that. To me, it seems like, I wonder if 762 00:38:55.070 --> 00:38:57.750 he at all regrets his decision as the movie progresses 763 00:38:57.889 --> 00:39:02.170 because he is ostracized because of his size. He's, he's 764 00:39:02.230 --> 00:39:06.369 pushed to the margins. And I know you were, you 765 00:39:06.389 --> 00:39:08.230 were driving towards something. I don't want to have interrupted you, 766 00:39:08.269 --> 00:39:13.449 but you mentioned Jodorowsky, this, this scene as things as Nazis, 767 00:39:13.730 --> 00:39:15.329 you know, in the war sort of fuck everything up 768 00:39:15.369 --> 00:39:18.659 for him at the circus. the circus scenes into the 769 00:39:18.699 --> 00:39:21.000 next scenes are what I feel like really are very, 770 00:39:22.219 --> 00:39:26.550 very Yodorovsky. Um, a lot of the imagery, a lot 771 00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:30.360 of like, just a lot of what happens. It, reminded 772 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.659 me so much of scenes from The Holy Mountain. 773 00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:34.599 Sure. 774 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:40.639 And also... Yeah. That's right. But go ahead. You were 775 00:39:40.659 --> 00:39:41.469 driving towards something. 776 00:39:41.570 --> 00:39:44.769 No, it's well said. I mean, there is a lot 777 00:39:44.789 --> 00:39:47.150 to unpack in a two-hour, 15-minute movie. 778 00:39:47.750 --> 00:39:48.070 Mm-hmm. 779 00:39:48.429 --> 00:39:51.110 So... Like we could go, but I mean, I think 780 00:39:51.150 --> 00:39:55.789 the point is, you know, Oscar is a kid that 781 00:39:55.829 --> 00:39:58.130 never really had a chance. And I think what happens 782 00:39:58.289 --> 00:40:01.090 over the course of almost three

hours is you just 783 00:40:01.170 --> 00:40:05.130 feel the weight of like coming up in that environment 784 00:40:05.710 --> 00:40:10.619 and how it, because Alfred, he wasn't never portrayed like 785 00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:11.380 he was selfish. 786 00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:11.659 Yes. 787 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:17.139 And, and he was somebody that was like self-serving, but, 788 00:40:18.260 --> 00:40:20.460 he did care for his son. Like you saw moments 789 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:22.280 where he was really caring for his son and like 790 00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:24.889 came back for him and thought of him. So he 791 00:40:24.949 --> 00:40:27.210 wasn't totally evil. And that's what I think the movie 792 00:40:27.250 --> 00:40:30.550 does really well is that nobody in this movie is 793 00:40:30.809 --> 00:40:35.170 absolutely evil. But despite. 794 00:40:36.110 --> 00:40:37.269 Well, the Nazis might've been. 795 00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:41.789 The Nazis were. Yes. Yes. 796 00:40:42.130 --> 00:40:45.570 Careful, Chris. Careful. Yeah. Yeah. 797 00:40:45.610 --> 00:40:48.099 That's where I was going. Like, Like they, but like, 798 00:40:48.380 --> 00:40:51.199 but the, what was happening in Germany at the time, 799 00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:54.780 I think it kind of drags you through how just 800 00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:57.699 complicated and fucked up it was to be in Germany 801 00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:01.820 at that time. And I think the movie does that well. 802 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.809 Like it, it's just like an emotional weight to everything 803 00:41:04.829 --> 00:41:07.269 that happens. And it's like, nobody can get ahead and 804 00:41:07.289 --> 00:41:09.190 there's bread lines and they don't have food. And like, 805 00:41:09.710 --> 00:41:13.010 there's just, just obstacle after obstacle. And it's just not 806 00:41:13.150 --> 00:41:14.989 like the regime is just not working. And I think 807 00:41:15.349 --> 00:41:20.039 that's where, it's a nice like anti, you know, authoritarian 808 00:41:20.099 --> 00:41:23.739 or anti totalitarian movie is that it just shows that like, 809 00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:24.780 it just doesn't work. 810 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:27.380 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 811 00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:31.199 Nothing goes well for anybody in this movie. And, and 812 00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:33.320 that's what I, I do really like that. I like 813 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:36.829 that Oscar, they could have played or when, I mean, again, 814 00:41:36.849 --> 00:41:40.829 I haven't read the book, but in other folks hands, 815 00:41:40.869 --> 00:41:43.489 maybe this story would have been more sympathetic toward Oscar 816 00:41:44.369 --> 00:41:48.099 given his condition and stuff. But, Instead, they choose to 817 00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.059 make him a very flawed character. This is not a 818 00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:59.960 hero's journey. He's sort of like the traditional literary unreliable 819 00:42:00.820 --> 00:42:06.780 narrator or unreliable observer. Whereas the character who we're following 820 00:42:07.110 --> 00:42:08.530 can't really be trusted. 821 00:42:11.150 --> 00:42:16.110 Because he is very manipulative. Now, I'm curious. 822 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:22.719 Because I had started the episode by saying this, does 823 00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:27.639 this movie fit the brain melt criteria? 824 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:28.639 What do you think? 825 00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:32.619 I'm going to argue no. What side are you taking? 826 00:42:33.730 --> 00:42:36.090 I'm honestly undecided, but I want to hear your argument, 827 00:42:37.250 --> 00:42:39.849 and then I will either counter or concede. 828 00:42:42.110 --> 00:42:47.210 I think that in the same way that Pasolini rarely 829 00:42:47.250 --> 00:42:52.630 shows up on these lists and, um, uh, Bunuel rarely 830 00:42:52.670 --> 00:42:53.929 shows up on these lists. 831 00:42:54.329 --> 00:42:54.489 Yep. 832 00:42:54.769 --> 00:42:57.690 I think there are certain directors that, that deal in 833 00:42:57.789 --> 00:43:01.579 surrealism and, and call bullshit out as bullshit. 834 00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:02.519 Yeah. 835 00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:05.139 In a very direct way. But the way that they 836 00:43:05.179 --> 00:43:11.199 go about it is, um, with the best writers, the 837 00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:14.840 best actors, the best budgets, they, they go about it 838 00:43:14.900 --> 00:43:17.059 in a way where they're going for like, like they're 839 00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:19.679 making something that's meant to be remembered and they're doing 840 00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:24.750 it for prestige and like for posterity. And I think 841 00:43:24.849 --> 00:43:30.130 that this movie fits more in that category because you 842 00:43:30.190 --> 00:43:33.610 could say that if you were to take away a 843 00:43:33.670 --> 00:43:38.550 few of the controversial elements, you could say that this 844 00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:42.409 is a, like the structure of this is a fairly 845 00:43:42.489 --> 00:43:45.880 standard coming of age story. Now, for all the reasons 846 00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:48.199 that we've just spent for the last 40 minutes or whatever, 847 00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:54.159 it's not standard at all. But the Bones are like 848 00:43:54.219 --> 00:43:56.780 an Academy Award winning movie or like a Palme d'Or 849 00:43:56.820 --> 00:43:59.780 winning movie. So for me, the answer is no. But 850 00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:00.619 I'd be curious what you think. 851 00:44:01.659 --> 00:44:06.860 No, I agree. So here's the thing. The original idea 852 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:11.690 of Brain Melt was just crazy shit, right? It was 853 00:44:11.710 --> 00:44:14.480 just crazy shit. Mulholland Drive was on there. 854 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.500 You know, a lot of very respected movies that are 855 00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:21.239 just fucking weird were on there. And I've I've gone 856 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.360 through and I've whittled a lot of

those off. For 857 00:44:25.420 --> 00:44:28.119 exactly the reason that you're saying, it's not it's not 858 00:44:28.179 --> 00:44:29.989 removing them and it's not saying that they don't fit 859 00:44:30.010 --> 00:44:34.650 the criteria because they're they won awards or for whatever reason. 860 00:44:34.670 --> 00:44:36.130 But you're right. 861 00:44:36.190 --> 00:44:40.000 The production value is very high in this movie. the 862 00:44:40.099 --> 00:44:43.900 writing is extremely high caliber. The actors are some of 863 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:49.280 the best of that era in those areas, right? I 864 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:52.460 would say rather than this being a brain melt movie, 865 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:56.300 this would have made more of a better champagne pairing. 866 00:44:56.340 --> 00:44:59.940 This is more of a canon film. Criterion had recognized 867 00:44:59.980 --> 00:45:05.519 this early on in their DVD era. So although it 868 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:09.139 does have plenty of the brain melt elements, it's not 869 00:45:10.050 --> 00:45:14.409 outsider art it's might not be fully mainstream but it's 870 00:45:14.610 --> 00:45:17.769 it's you know it's in the collective conscious it's in 871 00:45:17.949 --> 00:45:21.400 sort of like art house and and so yeah I 872 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:24.719 think it doesn't necessarily fit although I'm extremely glad that 873 00:45:24.739 --> 00:45:27.679 we that we did it but this this is something 874 00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:29.320 exciting right this is a first for us this is 875 00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:31.960 the first time we've chosen a movie that we kind 876 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:36.820 of evaluated a little bit differently and said like this 877 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.869 is I don't want to say is elevated beyond what 878 00:45:40.909 --> 00:45:42.969 brain melt is because I think a lot of the 879 00:45:42.989 --> 00:45:44.090 movies on that list are phenomenal. 880 00:45:44.610 --> 00:45:44.809 Yeah. 881 00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:48.519 But yeah, no. So I'm going to go ahead and say, no, 882 00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:48.940 I agree. 883 00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:55.280 Okay. What was for the sake of, because we do 884 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:59.280 this anyways, what was your champagne pairing? I'll end on 885 00:45:59.300 --> 00:46:02.300 this one. And then for the next movie we can 886 00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:06.360 switch and you can do it. 887 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:07.480 Yeah, for sure. 888 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.940 So I went with a totally basic ass. I feel 889 00:46:10.980 --> 00:46:13.699 like my choice was so on the nose, but maybe not. 890 00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:19.349 I went with Come and See. And the reason was 891 00:46:19.590 --> 00:46:22.289 not just because it was like, there's so many. 892 00:46:22.190 --> 00:46:22.690 Reasons, right? 893 00:46:22.849 --> 00:46:25.489 One is both movies told from the point of view 894 00:46:25.869 --> 00:46:33.559 of small characters. But one is an adult in the 895 00:46:33.619 --> 00:46:37.280 body of a child. The other one is who's chosen 896 00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:39.239 to live in a child's body. The other one is 897 00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.090 a child who's forced to essentially like face horrors that 898 00:46:43.829 --> 00:46:48.690 not even grown adults should face and grow up faster 899 00:46:48.710 --> 00:46:53.650 than he needed to. You've got an interesting sort of 900 00:46:54.300 --> 00:47:00.059 duality here where Oscar ends up working to entertain Nazis 901 00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:03.440 and sort of like uses that as his way of 902 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:08.539 surviving amongst them. Whereas in come and see your main character, uh, 903 00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:15.719 is essentially dramatized beyond belief and then helps in eradicating 904 00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:19.530 the group of people who have tormented him. Uh, so they, 905 00:47:19.650 --> 00:47:21.750 they sort of play very well off each other, I think. 906 00:47:21.849 --> 00:47:24.630 And they're both extremely chaotic. And I think if you 907 00:47:24.670 --> 00:47:26.829 watch both of them together as a double feature, you're 908 00:47:26.849 --> 00:47:27.989 going to have a fucking terrible night. 909 00:47:28.070 --> 00:47:31.739 I'm sorry. It's going to be a long night. 910 00:47:31.820 --> 00:47:33.239 It's you're going to, you're going to need to watch 911 00:47:33.260 --> 00:47:34.800 another book cartoons for the next two weeks. 912 00:47:35.730 --> 00:47:37.679 You know what? I've never seen Come and See before. 913 00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:38.940 Oh, my God. 914 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:40.360 I know. I know. 915 00:47:41.139 --> 00:47:42.539 Chris, you're blowing my mind right now. Well, you have 916 00:47:42.579 --> 00:47:45.639 to because it is one of the best movies ever made. 917 00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:47.840 And I probably say that about everything, but it truly 918 00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:54.610 is just one of the most harrowing, deeply unsettling and 919 00:47:55.190 --> 00:47:57.250 disturbing movies I've ever seen. 920 00:47:58.070 --> 00:48:00.429 No, there's no reason why. I just haven't got to it, 921 00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:02.530 but I will try to prioritize it. 922 00:48:02.670 --> 00:48:04.809 Stop being a little bitch and watch Come and See. 923 00:48:06.659 --> 00:48:08.530 Uh, okay. Just kidding. 924 00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:09.690 I'm just kidding. 925 00:48:09.769 --> 00:48:14.650 No, I know. Um, there, the, the theme that if 926 00:48:14.690 --> 00:48:16.650 I were to pick like one theme that, that kind 927 00:48:16.670 --> 00:48:18.289 of stood out to me in the tin drum, it 928 00:48:18.389 --> 00:48:23.480 was this idea of like, um, arrested development where you 929 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:28.880 have these external forces coming in. Totalitarianism just like suspends 930 00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:32.760 the development of a, of an entire nation. And, and 931 00:48:32.780 -->

00:48:34.519 you were seeing it now in the U S I mean, again, 932 00:48:34.539 --> 00:48:36.690 I know this is not a political show, But there 933 00:48:36.710 --> 00:48:39.989 are people that, like, if you really ask five questions, 934 00:48:40.050 --> 00:48:43.489 MAGA doesn't even make sense, right? Like, when was America great? 935 00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:47.130 What was great about it? Like, nobody knows. It's just 936 00:48:47.150 --> 00:48:49.090 like this ambiguous thing where it's just like, well, we 937 00:48:49.130 --> 00:48:49.750 want it to be great. 938 00:48:49.769 --> 00:48:50.889 It's just rah-rah jingoism. 939 00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:55.820 Yes. And so, again, I don't mean this in any, well, 940 00:48:56.030 --> 00:48:57.300 I guess I do mean it in a political way, 941 00:48:57.320 --> 00:48:58.889 but I don't mean to go too far down into it. 942 00:48:58.940 --> 00:49:01.599 Just saying that this is what happens when you have 943 00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:05.500 fascism take over a country is that this is the playbook, right? 944 00:49:06.550 --> 00:49:09.730 You get behind a couple of slogans that just emotionally 945 00:49:09.829 --> 00:49:11.880 feel good when you say it and like sort of 946 00:49:11.900 --> 00:49:15.280 feel right to you and you don't really ask any 947 00:49:15.340 --> 00:49:17.489 questions about it. And there's another movie that does this 948 00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:22.909 very well. I did not like Fellini's Amarcord at all 949 00:49:22.949 --> 00:49:26.579 the first time I saw it but I read a 950 00:49:26.940 --> 00:49:31.780 essay that just talked about how much he was exposing 951 00:49:32.579 --> 00:49:37.179 how fascism arrests the development of a whole nation and 952 00:49:37.219 --> 00:49:39.619 I watched it again under that lens and it became 953 00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.630 like a top 20 movie for me. Like I, I 954 00:49:42.690 --> 00:49:44.409 see what he was trying to do. And he, it's like, 955 00:49:44.530 --> 00:49:46.619 everything just is different when you kind of watch it 956 00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:50.179 through that lens. And to me, it's like the perfect 957 00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:52.260 pairing with this. Cause it's about what Italy was going 958 00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:55.300 through at that time versus when Tindrum is what, you know, 959 00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:56.179 Germany was going through. 960 00:49:57.019 --> 00:49:57.199 Yep. 961 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:02.699 No, that's great. I have seen Amarcord. I don't remember 962 00:50:02.860 --> 00:50:04.900 anything about it. I don't remember if I liked it, 963 00:50:05.010 --> 00:50:10.590 if I disliked it, I watched it. when I first 964 00:50:11.289 --> 00:50:18.389 was discovering Fellini. That's probably why I don't remember, to 965 00:50:18.409 --> 00:50:19.889 be honest with you, because when it comes to Fellini, 966 00:50:20.650 --> 00:50:25.550 I'm much more of like an eight-and-a-half, La Strada type person. 967 00:50:26.880 -->

00:50:28.559 I do want to go through and watch a. 968 00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:32.440 Lot more and revisit a lot of that stuff, so 969 00:50:32.500 --> 00:50:36.420 I don't really remember Amarcord, but you comparing it in 970 00:50:36.460 --> 00:50:38.500 that way makes me really want to go back and 971 00:50:38.539 --> 00:50:40.519 revisit anything. 972 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:43.820 So I could talk for two hours on Fellini. I'm 973 00:50:43.900 --> 00:50:46.679 obsessed with him as a director, but eight and a 974 00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:48.579 half was like a turning point in his career where 975 00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:50.780 he was like, I'm done making the movies for you. 976 00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:54.110 I'm making the movies for me. And everything after eight 977 00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:57.010 and a half is just like this glorious madman. It's 978 00:50:57.050 --> 00:51:02.070 just like unhinged. Like I, I love his late career 979 00:51:02.110 --> 00:51:05.190 stuff a lot, but that's a different podcast. 980 00:51:05.969 --> 00:51:08.869 No, I really, I really need to dive deeper. I mean, 981 00:51:08.889 --> 00:51:12.690 I've seen, it's funny because you can say you've seen 982 00:51:12.730 --> 00:51:14.780 movies from a director, but if you saw them 20, 983 00:51:14.780 --> 00:51:17.510 25 years ago and you never revisited them and you 984 00:51:17.550 --> 00:51:22.019 watch them in this sort of like binge of a director, 985 00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.320 what I did, it's hard for anything to really stand out. 986 00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:27.840 But for me, what stood out more was eight and 987 00:51:27.860 --> 00:51:30.059 a half was like a, like a. 988 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:31.639 Defining movie for me. Right. 989 00:51:31.699 --> 00:51:35.420 Like that right up there with, like Persona, Stalker, Eight 990 00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:38.659 and a Half, and like Ahasard Balthazar. Those for me 991 00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:42.659 are like, those are the four pivotal movies that really 992 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:44.690 changed the way I look. 993 00:51:44.530 --> 00:51:45.090 At that film. 994 00:51:45.610 --> 00:51:47.150 That's awesome. 995 00:51:47.329 --> 00:51:51.170 So Fellini, although I'm not a Fellini scholar, he's extremely 996 00:51:51.210 --> 00:51:53.190 important for my journey. 997 00:51:53.530 --> 00:51:55.510 So I will definitely go rewatch Amacord. 998 00:51:55.530 --> 00:51:58.239 Dude, that literally, you couldn't have set that up better 999 00:51:58.300 --> 00:52:00.380 because if you had to pick a fifth movie to 1000 00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:04.239 add to that foundational list, I think you would choose 1001 00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:05.760 the movie that we're going to talk about next. 1002 00:52:06.420 --> 00:52:10.219 Oh, my God. Can I introduce it? I've been waiting 1003 00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:11.320 to introduce this movie. 1004 00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:13.559 You think I would take this from you? Are you kidding? 1005 00:52:13.579

--> 00:52:19.000 I don't hate you. Not yet. All right, here we go. 1006 00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:23.639 So we're going to take a hard left here. Not 1007 00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:30.710 necessarily into happier territory, but into different territory. So I'm 1008 00:52:30.730 --> 00:52:31.710 going to set the scene. 1009 00:52:32.500 --> 00:52:32.679 Year. 1010 00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:36.280 So I don't know what year it was. I mean, 1011 00:52:36.300 --> 00:52:39.820 I was 17 years old. So what was that? 1012 00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.670 Uh, 98. So it was 1998. 1013 00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:45.559 I was hanging out with my two best friends at 1014 00:52:45.579 --> 00:52:48.219 the time, Pat and Eric, and we decided to go 1015 00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:51.559 rent some movies. So we went to a Hollywood video 1016 00:52:51.619 --> 00:52:55.559 cause we didn't have a blockbuster around. And, uh, we 1017 00:52:55.579 --> 00:52:57.880 would always just go and peruse the shelves and just 1018 00:52:58.099 --> 00:53:01.639 rent whatever like full moon movie we hadn't seen, like whatever, uh, 1019 00:53:02.070 --> 00:53:06.389 cover looked hilarious and for whatever reason i don't even 1020 00:53:06.409 --> 00:53:08.610 think it was my choice i think it was um 1021 00:53:09.429 --> 00:53:10.750 one of it was definitely one of their choice i 1022 00:53:10.750 --> 00:53:15.429 don't remember which one they chose this movie secret adventures 1023 00:53:15.469 --> 00:53:18.170 of tom thumb now you hear that title that sounds 1024 00:53:18.190 --> 00:53:19.969 like a kid's movie right like this sounds like a 1025 00:53:20.030 --> 00:53:22.489 kid's fairy tale movie and you look at the cover 1026 00:53:23.139 --> 00:53:26.019 and um if you're listening pull your pull out your 1027 00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:27.199 phone do whatever. 1028 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:31.159 Like look up this cover it's it's this i don't know. 1029 00:53:31.469 --> 00:53:35.369 Eastern european looking guy leaning in on a table and 1030 00:53:35.389 --> 00:53:39.510 this little claymation bald character standing on the table in 1031 00:53:39.550 --> 00:53:42.599 front of him there's something sort of odd about it 1032 00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.159 but you can't really put your finger on it um 1033 00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:49.980 font is in like blood cherry red so the background 1034 00:53:50.019 --> 00:53:53.860 is all black around it so it sort of gives 1035 00:53:53.900 --> 00:53:56.059 you a vibe but it's hard to like really pin 1036 00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:59.980 down so we rented this movie And we got back 1037 00:54:00.019 --> 00:54:03.179 and we watched it at Chad's house. And when it ended, 1038 00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:07.429 like we could not have all had more different, um, 1039 00:54:08.130 --> 00:54:09.389 react reactions to this movie. 1040 00:54:09.409 --> 00:54:15.590 Right. So, uh, Chad was like completely couldn't have cared less. 1041 00:54:15.630 --> 00:54:17.170 He was like, eh, all right. It was whatever. 1042 00:54:17.449 --> 00:54:22.219 Like dad, no opinion whatsoever. Eric fucking hated this movie. 1043 00:54:22.340 --> 00:54:25.000 He was like, see, he was, I remember he was 1044 00:54:25.139 --> 00:54:27.360 mad that we had wasted. Now this movie is not 1045 00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:28.059 even an hour long. 1046 00:54:28.099 --> 00:54:28.579 It's like 57 minutes. 1047 00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:35.400 Eric was mad that we watched that like. 1048 00:54:33.579 --> 00:54:39.159 He was literally pissed off and i was just i 1049 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:40.579 was just struck. 1050 00:54:40.300 --> 00:54:44.219 Dumb by how incredible this movie was um i fell 1051 00:54:44.659 --> 00:54:47.090 absolutely head over heels in love with this movie now 1052 00:54:47.090 --> 00:54:51.510 17 this was still about two years out from i 1053 00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:53.570 don't know what you want to call it we all 1054 00:54:53.750 --> 00:54:56.269 had that like that awakening to when you know we 1055 00:54:56.309 --> 00:55:01.659 went from just watching ghostbusters and the matrix to discovering film. 1056 00:55:02.289 --> 00:55:02.469 Right. 1057 00:55:02.929 --> 00:55:06.409 Um, not to sound too fart sniffy, but this, this 1058 00:55:06.530 --> 00:55:09.809 predates my sort of awakening. Um, cause I was 19 1059 00:55:09.809 --> 00:55:12.889 when I first bought, um, seven seal, which was my 1060 00:55:12.969 --> 00:55:17.539 first criterion DVD. And I had no fucking idea what 1061 00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:18.280 I was getting myself into. 1062 00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:20.940 Um, but this is one. 1063 00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:25.440 Of those movies from that period that transcended and carried over. Um, 1064 00:55:28.219 --> 00:55:31.800 into and fit fully perfectly into, you know, uh, the 1065 00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:33.500 rest of my life. And I have loved this movie 1066 00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:33.940 ever since. 1067 00:55:33.980 --> 00:55:39.989 And that was almost 30 years ago, right. Which Jesus Christ. Um, 1068 00:55:41.849 --> 00:55:42.829 and I bought the DVD. 1069 00:55:42.869 --> 00:55:46.150 I have the VHS, like it needs, it desperately needs 1070 00:55:46.929 --> 00:55:51.110 some awesome label to, to do like a really nice 1071 00:55:51.610 --> 00:55:52.730 Blu-ray or 4k of it. 1072 00:55:52.780 --> 00:55:55.559 I would love that so much. But anyway, so that 1073 00:55:55.579 --> 00:55:56.699 was how I came to this movie. 1074 00:55:56.719 --> 00:56:00.400 And I've been trying to get people into this movie 1075 00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:02.519 literally my entire adult life. 1076 00:56:02.980 --> 00:56:09.579 And I have failed at every turn. Maybe until now. 1077 00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:13.630 I'm so glad you did. Here's what I'll just say 1078 00:56:13.670 --> 00:56:16.550 at the top before we get into it. There are 1079 00:56:16.710 --> 00:56:21.880 certain movies for me that as I'm watching them, I 1080 00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:24.440

can't help but kind of detach from the movie itself 1081 00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:29.019 and put my mind in or think about the mind 1082 00:56:29.059 --> 00:56:33.840 of the creator of the movie. And Dave Borthwick, I'm 1083 00:56:33.889 --> 00:56:35.869 sure you said his name, I can't remember, but this 1084 00:56:35.909 --> 00:56:41.269 guy Dave Borthwick, this is such an unbelievable passion project. 1085 00:56:42.349 --> 00:56:44.670 And I don't even know anything about the guy. I'm 1086 00:56:44.690 --> 00:56:47.579 not coming from that angle. But It's just clear in 1087 00:56:47.619 --> 00:56:50.400 every scene. He made a decision not only to have 1088 00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:55.760 stop animation for Tom Thumb, which we'll get into, which 1089 00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:58.570 is more of an animated character, but when there's humans, 1090 00:56:58.969 --> 00:57:01.030 he uses stop motion for them as well. 1091 00:57:02.650 --> 00:57:08.949 Yes, it's a process called pixelation. I didn't know this 1092 00:57:09.030 --> 00:57:13.730 until I started doing research for this. I always just 1093 00:57:13.769 --> 00:57:16.820 assumed it was stop motion, but it's called pixelation when 1094 00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:18.920 you're doing it with humans, but it's essentially the exact 1095 00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:23.320 same thing. It's instead of photographing them or filming them 1096 00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:26.570 at 24 frames per second, you're literally doing like still 1097 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:31.250 frames for each like movement. So when you think that 1098 00:57:31.349 --> 00:57:33.530 no wonder this movie is only 57 minutes because every 1099 00:57:33.710 --> 00:57:37.010 actor in it, it was, was either painstakingly claymation, uh, 1100 00:57:37.070 --> 00:57:41.880 stop motion or the humans were shot one frame at 1101 00:57:41.889 --> 00:57:46.989 a time. And, uh, and had to give performances and, and, 1102 00:57:47.230 --> 00:57:49.389 and make these facial expressions and stuff. 1103 00:57:49.429 --> 00:57:53.190 So it's kind of a miracle that this movie was made. 1104 00:57:54.309 --> 00:57:58.070 Yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly it. Like, how do you 1105 00:57:58.369 --> 00:58:03.250 carry a conversation when you're having to stop every like 1106 00:58:03.409 --> 00:58:04.369 one 24th of a second? 1107 00:58:04.389 --> 00:58:08.389 Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay, all right now move your mouth 1108 00:58:08.429 --> 00:58:10.460 a tiny bit. Click. Okay. Now move a little bit. Click. 1109 00:58:10.699 --> 00:58:12.780 It's like, that's gotta be very painstaking. 1110 00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:18.829 Crazy. And so like this, I just, well, Oh darn. 1111 00:58:18.849 --> 00:58:21.489 I almost gave away my, my champagne pairing, but there's just, 1112 00:58:21.949 --> 00:58:25.150 there's certain movies where you're just watching and you're like, Oh, 1113 00:58:25.170 --> 00:58:30.820 I like this movie is great. And I, I don't 1114 00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:32.800 mean to say that I'm detaching myself from whether or 1115 00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:35.559 not I liked it. I'm not quite to that level, 1116 00:58:36.099 --> 00:58:40.039 but I'm just saying like, this is why, this is 1117 00:58:40.219 --> 00:58:43.750 why we're championing this kind of art. Like, like this 1118 00:58:43.789 --> 00:58:47.500 was a passion project to an nth degree. And this, 1119 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:49.519 you know, this is, this is something that this guy 1120 00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:53.280 had deep inside of him to tell this story. It 1121 00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:55.739 just felt so personal. And I, and I really felt 1122 00:58:55.840 --> 00:58:58.119 like warmth and I ended up watching it twice because 1123 00:58:58.159 --> 00:58:58.519 it's short. 1124 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:02.690 Yeah, no, it's, I watched it three times getting ready 1125 00:59:02.730 --> 00:59:02.989 for this. 1126 00:59:03.289 --> 00:59:06.090 And I mean, three times is, you know, I mean, 1127 00:59:06.730 --> 00:59:09.309 I've watched this movie so many times over the years because, 1128 00:59:10.230 --> 00:59:14.269 it is, it's, it's short and it goes, it flies 1129 00:59:14.329 --> 00:59:17.809 by in my opinion. There's so much visually going on 1130 00:59:17.829 --> 00:59:21.739 in this movie that I feel like almost every time 1131 00:59:21.780 --> 00:59:25.300 I watch it, I catch a new insect in the background, 1132 00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:29.179 which we'll talk more about or a different detail that 1133 00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:35.179 I hadn't before. but it's not a complicated movie by 1134 00:59:35.260 --> 00:59:38.840 any means it's essentially I don't know if everybody listening 1135 00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:43.880 knows the Tom Thumb story but it takes the idea 1136 00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:49.619 of that fairy tale and completely flips it and turns 1137 00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:58.530 it into something darker and more disturbing this movie's got 1138 00:59:58.550 --> 01:00:01.550 a lot to say in a short run time Um, 1139 01:00:01.670 --> 01:00:03.170 so I don't know. Do you want to set up 1140 01:00:03.190 --> 01:00:04.530 the premise? Do you want to talk about the opening? 1141 01:00:05.090 --> 01:00:05.469 Sure. 1142 01:00:05.789 --> 01:00:09.269 Um, so, well, okay. Yeah, sure. Going back to the 1143 01:00:09.329 --> 01:00:15.489 opening scene. So, um, we start in this, what, what 1144 01:00:16.150 --> 01:00:19.230 ends up becoming kind of like a factory setting. Um, 1145 01:00:19.489 --> 01:00:22.409 but it zooms in a lot to just some, you know, 1146 01:00:22.469 --> 01:00:27.969 baby in uterus. Uh, and we don't find out till 1147 01:00:28.340 --> 01:00:33.280 later that it's more of like a, factory birth. But 1148 01:00:33.300 --> 01:00:35.639 then there's a confusing part for me that maybe you 1149 01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:39.190 can help understand, but it goes from this sort of 1150 01:00:39.230 --> 01:00:43.170 factory setting,

conveyor belts and babies that are getting inseminated 1151 01:00:43.230 --> 01:00:50.670 through actual inseminating fluid that's pushed into this uterus. But 1152 01:00:50.690 --> 01:00:54.250 then when the baby's born, it's born through a woman. 1153 01:00:54.309 --> 01:00:58.400 So I don't know if that's just like in Borthwick's world, 1154 01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:00.590 like there's a baby factory and they're kind of like 1155 01:01:00.619 --> 01:01:03.389 put into the mother, or if he's just giving his 1156 01:01:03.469 --> 01:01:05.269 view of like, this is how babies are made. I 1157 01:01:05.510 --> 01:01:08.349 don't know, like if it's metaphorical or if it's meant 1158 01:01:08.369 --> 01:01:11.230 to be, cause you know, science labs play a role 1159 01:01:11.269 --> 01:01:14.280 later in the movie too. But that was one gap 1160 01:01:14.340 --> 01:01:15.760 I had. I don't know if you know, like how 1161 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:16.880 those two are connected, but. 1162 01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:19.940 Well, I've, so I've done a lot of reading over 1163 01:01:19.960 --> 01:01:21.579 the years to try to figure out, like, I can't 1164 01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:23.960 really find much that Dave Borthwick has ever really said 1165 01:01:23.980 --> 01:01:28.530 to kind of give away, you the story and everything 1166 01:01:28.550 --> 01:01:31.630 of this, the way I've always seen it was, yeah, 1167 01:01:31.650 --> 01:01:34.429 you start in this factory set. Well, it's, it's, but 1168 01:01:34.449 --> 01:01:38.269 it's odd because you start in utero with Tom and 1169 01:01:38.329 --> 01:01:40.690 then you cut to, I think it's, and then you 1170 01:01:40.710 --> 01:01:43.309 cut to the factory and you see all these jars 1171 01:01:43.369 --> 01:01:47.320 being inseminated basically on a conveyor belt and there's no 1172 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:50.980 humans around. It's all just very cold machinery, you know, 1173 01:01:51.199 --> 01:01:57.179 a laboratory. And then as these, jars are being inseminated, 1174 01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:00.599 a fly, a giant fly lands on one of the 1175 01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:04.400 mechanisms on the tubes that are shooting the goo into 1176 01:02:04.420 --> 01:02:08.260 the jars and ends up getting crushed under the gears. 1177 01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:12.809 And it's very gooey and yucky, which kind of fucks 1178 01:02:12.849 --> 01:02:16.170 up the machinery. And then it sort of like, for 1179 01:02:16.190 --> 01:02:18.369 whatever reason, the goo that's supposed to come out white 1180 01:02:18.570 --> 01:02:21.789 in the jar comes out greenish. So I always just 1181 01:02:21.809 --> 01:02:25.309 sort of assumed that that was a goof on the 1182 01:02:25.349 --> 01:02:26.010 part of. 1183 01:02:28.110 --> 01:02:29.239 The insemination machine. 1184 01:02:29.260 --> 01:02:35.809 And then the, the, Tom's mother was probably artificially inseminated 1185 01:02:35.889 --> 01:02:37.889 because you know, this world is sort of, there's a 1186 01:02:37.929 --> 01:02:41.519 lot of decay. Everything's very run down and industrialized and 1187 01:02:41.539 --> 01:02:42.039 kind of gross. 1188 01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:43.000 Who knows? 1189 01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:47.360 Maybe, maybe pollution has caused, you know, infertility. Um, people 1190 01:02:47.380 --> 01:02:49.679 can't have babies the way they used to, or maybe 1191 01:02:50.059 --> 01:02:52.250 there's a lot of fascist sort of elements in this movie. 1192 01:02:52.269 --> 01:02:55.800 So maybe the government is trying to control births and, uh, 1193 01:02:58.139 --> 01:02:59.940 And I always just saw it as like, Tom is 1194 01:03:00.019 --> 01:03:03.139 born different because of that fuck up at the plant. 1195 01:03:05.059 --> 01:03:06.960 And just to me, that's sort of a play on 1196 01:03:06.980 --> 01:03:07.639 the way. 1197 01:03:09.909 --> 01:03:14.050 Genetic engineering isn't without its faults and without its dangers 1198 01:03:14.110 --> 01:03:17.110 and stuff like that. So, I mean, Dave Borthwick obviously 1199 01:03:17.150 --> 01:03:19.489 had a lot to say in this movie, but he didn't, 1200 01:03:20.690 --> 01:03:23.699 he didn't give us any exposition because there's almost no 1201 01:03:23.980 --> 01:03:26.500 actual language in this movie. I think there's maybe like, 1202 01:03:27.260 --> 01:03:30.800 three lines of intelligible dialogue throughout the whole movie. Yeah, 1203 01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:36.230 after we exit the weird insemination plant, which I think 1204 01:03:36.269 --> 01:03:38.230 is important at the beginning because it sets up this 1205 01:03:38.329 --> 01:03:43.690 sort of fairytale world where instead of a normal forest 1206 01:03:43.750 --> 01:03:45.469 or castles and stuff like that, what we have is 1207 01:03:45.849 --> 01:03:52.699 run down Eastern European looking decrepit cities or streets and 1208 01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:56.840 neighborhoods mixed with sort of industrialized. 1209 01:03:57.980 --> 01:04:04.739 Um, debris and laboratories. So it's all very, um, it's oppressive. 1210 01:04:04.780 --> 01:04:07.389 It's a very oppressive atmosphere in this movie, um, because 1211 01:04:07.409 --> 01:04:12.650 you're either in really squalid surroundings or you're in these 1212 01:04:12.670 --> 01:04:17.610 very cold clinical sort of machine type buildings, whether they 1213 01:04:17.630 --> 01:04:21.829 almost feel like a mixture of like slaughterhouse factory and 1214 01:04:21.929 --> 01:04:22.610 like laboratory. 1215 01:04:22.949 --> 01:04:24.329 I've got a question for you on this. I don't 1216 01:04:24.349 --> 01:04:27.059 mean to interrupt you. Please don't lose your train of thought. No, 1217 01:04:28.059 --> 01:04:32.719 So Borthwick was creating a studio, right? Like an animation studio, right? 1218 01:04:32.739 --> 01:04:34.590 Yeah, Bullock Brothers. 1219 01:04:34.969 --> 01:04:37.429 Yes. Something that Crispin Glover would have loved. 1220 01:04:38.750 --> 01:04:39.949

Absolutely. 1221 01:04:40.510 --> 01:04:43.369 But I was trying to figure out, because of the 1222 01:04:43.409 --> 01:04:45.590 way that they shot this movie, the pixelated style they 1223 01:04:45.610 --> 01:04:49.219 shot it in, was this, when they shot a lot 1224 01:04:49.239 --> 01:04:53.639 of this dilapidated housing and stuff, was it like a 1225 01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:58.329 miniature set? Was it like a full-size set? Um, like, 1226 01:04:58.349 --> 01:05:00.710 did you ever, uh, like I was trying to kind 1227 01:05:00.750 --> 01:05:03.550 of piece together, like, was there matte paintings anywhere? Like, 1228 01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:07.619 it felt like a lot of it was, um, a 1229 01:05:07.699 --> 01:05:10.179 set that they kind of recreated to make look real. 1230 01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:14.460 Like everything was full size and it just had a 1231 01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.860 little bit of a altered reality look to it because 1232 01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:18.880 of the clay and because of the, like the way 1233 01:05:18.900 --> 01:05:22.619 that they shot it. But is that your reading? If, yeah. 1234 01:05:22.679 --> 01:05:25.659 So there's a lot of matte paintings. There's a lot of, um, 1235 01:05:27.050 --> 01:05:28.019 like sets and stuff. 1236 01:05:28.039 --> 01:05:30.260 I don't think any of these, these locations are actually 1237 01:05:30.340 --> 01:05:34.820 like interiors of houses and stuff. And if you, if 1238 01:05:34.840 --> 01:05:36.199 you go back and rewatch it, I know you said 1239 01:05:36.219 --> 01:05:39.719 you watched it twice, really pay attention to scale and, um, 1240 01:05:40.739 --> 01:05:45.010 everything feels wrong to a degree in scale. So there's that, 1241 01:05:45.110 --> 01:05:48.989 there's that great scene when Tom's father, um, we're jumping 1242 01:05:49.010 --> 01:05:51.929 slightly ahead here, but Tom's dad goes out into the 1243 01:05:51.969 --> 01:05:53.900 neighborhood and, Cause he's going to go down to the 1244 01:05:53.940 --> 01:05:56.480 local toy store to, uh, dig through their trash to 1245 01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:58.989 find some doll clothes for him. And if you look 1246 01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:00.869 back at that scene, it's supposed to be all like 1247 01:06:00.949 --> 01:06:03.269 brick buildings and stuff, but all of the, all the 1248 01:06:03.329 --> 01:06:06.670 doorways and the awnings are sort of like not quite 1249 01:06:06.690 --> 01:06:07.829 to the degree of like. 1250 01:06:07.690 --> 01:06:10.070 Something like, um, the cabinet of cabinet of Dr. 1251 01:06:10.090 --> 01:06:15.019 Caligari, but everything's sort of like angled slightly odd and, um, 1252 01:06:16.159 --> 01:06:17.519 things are a little too close. 1253 01:06:17.579 --> 01:06:22.920 So it's this very claustrophobic feel. Um, and, uh, yeah. 1254 01:06:22.940 --> 01:06:26.900 So everything's made to be sort of strange scale, um, 1255 01:06:27.059 --> 01:06:29.179 which I think plays with the whole idea of Tom 1256 01:06:29.699 --> 01:06:34.010 being this tiny, tiny little character and everything around him 1257 01:06:34.090 --> 01:06:36.570 is just large and imposing and scary. 1258 01:06:36.909 --> 01:06:41.829 But there's this really great moment. Um, after that scene, um, 1259 01:06:42.070 --> 01:06:42.409 I don't. 1260 01:06:42.309 --> 01:06:46.340 Know if you remember, but he's, he finds the toy 1261 01:06:46.360 --> 01:06:48.519 store on the corner and he digs through the trash 1262 01:06:48.860 --> 01:06:52.150 and finds, um, like a little box with a bunch 1263 01:06:52.170 --> 01:06:54.190 of doll clothes and stuff. And that's the first time 1264 01:06:54.230 --> 01:06:56.639 we see one of these strange sort of, uh, I 1265 01:06:57.340 --> 01:06:58.960 don't know if they're supposed to look like sort of like, 1266 01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:01.280 it almost looked like a mixture of like those, like, 1267 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:06.719 like FBI G men, uh, mixed with sort of like, um, 1268 01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:11.699 Nazi Gestapo sort of like long black coat, Yeah. 1269 01:07:11.739 --> 01:07:13.469 Very kind of who framed Roger Rabbit. 1270 01:07:13.769 --> 01:07:14.469 Yeah. Yeah. 1271 01:07:14.510 --> 01:07:17.610 Very, very doom. Yeah. 1272 01:07:17.710 --> 01:07:20.010 Their eyes are always hidden in shadow by the brim 1273 01:07:20.030 --> 01:07:20.590 of their hat. 1274 01:07:20.869 --> 01:07:21.269 Yeah. 1275 01:07:22.369 --> 01:07:22.969 They. 1276 01:07:24.510 --> 01:07:25.030 Kidnap him. 1277 01:07:25.110 --> 01:07:27.650 Oh, it's after it's after they come and kidnap Tom. Now, 1278 01:07:27.829 --> 01:07:29.590 I don't want to jump too far ahead, but remind 1279 01:07:29.610 --> 01:07:32.570 me to get back on this. So what I was 1280 01:07:32.610 --> 01:07:35.269 saying about that, there's this one great moment the first 1281 01:07:35.309 --> 01:07:38.869 time we see Tom's family. is this rock gets thrown 1282 01:07:38.889 --> 01:07:41.329 through their window, but you fly through their window as 1283 01:07:41.590 --> 01:07:42.969 it's like a POV shot of the rock. 1284 01:07:43.630 --> 01:07:44.750 But the rock is actually this. 1285 01:07:44.670 --> 01:07:48.429 Little like slab with like tentacles and little like limbs 1286 01:07:49.230 --> 01:07:51.510 all like wriggling on it. And I think there's like 1287 01:07:51.530 --> 01:07:54.469 a little head there too. And it's like making just 1288 01:07:54.530 --> 01:08:00.130 the saddest little like whimpery, like screeching sound. And Tom's parents, 1289 01:08:00.190 --> 01:08:01.809 Tom's dad just kind of like looks at it and 1290 01:08:01.849 --> 01:08:04.650 literally just goes, and then looks away. 1291 01:08:04.989 --> 01:08:08.530 Like this is all totally normal. there's a lot of. 1292 01:08:08.530 --> 01:08:10.539 These really strange little flourishes in this movie or these 1293 01:08:10.579 --> 01:08:14.840 little moments where inanimate objects will randomly come to life 1294

01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:19.060 or insects are all over this movie. There's just little 1295 01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:23.390 like stop motion animated insects everywhere. Like look at any, 1296 01:08:23.829 --> 01:08:25.510 any shot in this movie, you're going to see insects 1297 01:08:25.550 --> 01:08:28.010 in the background, whether it's moths, flies, spiders. 1298 01:08:30.609 --> 01:08:32.350 And I feel like that's saying something right. 1299 01:08:32.390 --> 01:08:35.779 Like there's no way Dave Borthwick just like, said oh 1300 01:08:35.819 --> 01:08:37.390 it's like bugs i just want to put bugs in 1301 01:08:37.430 --> 01:08:40.609 every single scene it's got to be saying something about you. 1302 01:08:40.569 --> 01:08:42.789 Know the whole the. 1303 01:08:42.729 --> 01:08:45.329 Whole vibe i get from this movie is that you 1304 01:08:45.369 --> 01:08:49.750 know uh humans are fucking up the world and nature 1305 01:08:49.770 --> 01:08:52.550 is sort of encroaching back on them uh whether it's 1306 01:08:53.449 --> 01:08:58.909 the insects taking over everything or you know this race 1307 01:08:58.949 --> 01:09:00.359 of little people that we'll talk about in a little 1308 01:09:00.380 --> 01:09:05.359 bit but so anyway so the junior G-men Gestapo comes 1309 01:09:05.420 --> 01:09:07.739 and takes Tom away because here's the other thing that 1310 01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:11.779 I think is really neat that Borthwick does Tom Thumb 1311 01:09:11.840 --> 01:09:14.699 is a fairy tale but in the fairy tale Tom 1312 01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:18.970 Thumb is like a little miracle baby right he's he's 1313 01:09:19.029 --> 01:09:22.909 celebrated And he's a good-looking. 1314 01:09:22.529 --> 01:09:26.319 Little boy, right? He's tiny, but he's handsome. In this, 1315 01:09:26.340 --> 01:09:31.000 Tom is not a miracle baby. If anything, he's a 1316 01:09:31.020 --> 01:09:33.140 genetic mutation. He's a genetic accident. 1317 01:09:33.819 --> 01:09:38.699 He's been engineered and fucked up due to a mix-up 1318 01:09:38.739 --> 01:09:41.630 at the plant. And he looks kind of like a 1319 01:09:41.689 --> 01:09:46.189 preemie baby. He's bald and his proportions are wrong. 1320 01:09:46.210 --> 01:09:47.590 Yeah. 1321 01:09:49.350 --> 01:09:51.850 But but what you said about how this movie sort 1322 01:09:51.869 --> 01:09:53.970 of touched you, right? Like you got a little emotional 1323 01:09:54.010 --> 01:09:57.979 in it and you kind of felt something. The, the, 1324 01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:02.939 the emotional crux of this movie is, is Tom and 1325 01:10:02.979 --> 01:10:06.039 his father's relationship where, you know, even the mom, when 1326 01:10:06.060 --> 01:10:08.520 she gives birth to him, um, the dad kind of 1327 01:10:08.539 --> 01:10:12.060 just takes this, this little like lump of bloody play 1328 01:10:12.100 --> 01:10:14.539 essentially and brings it and washes it off. And when 1329 01:10:14.579 --> 01:10:18.100 Tom starts breathing and is alive, the dad is so happy. 1330 01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:21.640 And this dad is, is like, just in love with 1331 01:10:21.680 --> 01:10:23.380 his son right from the get-go or even the mom 1332 01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:26.420 seems a little like disturbed by it uh the dad 1333 01:10:26.460 --> 01:10:29.689 is just all in so when the when the government 1334 01:10:29.779 --> 01:10:33.390 agents come and kidnap him um which is essentially what 1335 01:10:33.430 --> 01:10:35.350 it is you know they're taking him to do genetic 1336 01:10:35.409 --> 01:10:39.649 experiments on him uh it's heartbreaking right it's really an 1337 01:10:39.689 --> 01:10:41.649 emotional moment but. 1338 01:10:41.609 --> 01:10:44.390 Uh if i can just like maybe talk a little 1339 01:10:44.409 --> 01:10:46.130 bit about that now that you brought it up because 1340 01:10:46.149 --> 01:10:48.170 yeah yeah i think this is the thing that like 1341 01:10:48.489 --> 01:10:50.890 i want to call out as one of the the 1342 01:10:51.109 --> 01:10:55.050 really like positive parts about this movie or something that's 1343 01:10:55.069 --> 01:10:58.000 really great about this movie is, you know, there's certain 1344 01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:01.720 directors that I think Guillermo del Toro is one all 1345 01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:03.979 the time that I call out. I don't love his 1346 01:11:04.039 --> 01:11:07.430 movies necessarily, but I do love the fact that he 1347 01:11:07.529 --> 01:11:12.489 sympathizes with the monster. Tim Burton, Tim Burton's a good one. 1348 01:11:13.109 --> 01:11:14.329 Both of them have always said that. Yeah. 1349 01:11:14.350 --> 01:11:16.600 Guillermo del Toro, he, he always loves to see his 1350 01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:19.079 movies from the point of view of the quote unquote monster, 1351 01:11:19.220 --> 01:11:21.159 because his monsters are always just misunderstood. 1352 01:11:21.760 --> 01:11:25.460 Yes. What's his name? John Waters does it. Although he 1353 01:11:25.500 --> 01:11:27.800 doesn't do monsters in like the horror sense, but like 1354 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:28.920 same idea, right? 1355 01:11:29.020 --> 01:11:29.619 Divine. Yeah. 1356 01:11:30.100 --> 01:11:30.439 Yeah. 1357 01:11:30.659 --> 01:11:30.899 Yeah. 1358 01:11:30.930 --> 01:11:34.119 And just like, yeah, you, you hear people, Jodorowsky does it. 1359 01:11:34.149 --> 01:11:37.350 Like he always talks about his commentaries. He always talks 1360 01:11:37.390 --> 01:11:40.250 about finding these people that are like mangled or disformed 1361 01:11:40.310 --> 01:11:43.010 or something. And, or deformed or something and being like, 1362 01:11:43.029 --> 01:11:46.109 look how beautiful they are. Like they're this crazy, I 1363 01:11:46.149 --> 01:11:48.850 needed to show them, you know, anyways. So there's certain 1364 01:11:48.869 --> 01:11:51.869 people that just sympathize with the monster or the, and 1365 01:11:52.090 --> 01:11:54.090 I think that what this movie does such a good 1366

01:11:54.149 --> 01:11:58.300 job of is it like, I absolutely think there's something 1367 01:11:58.340 --> 01:12:02.819 to be said here as a theme around how man made, um, 1368 01:12:05.039 --> 01:12:10.659 progress like fucks up nature's progress. Like absolutely for sure. Um, 1369 01:12:11.220 --> 01:12:16.279 But I think that in the process of telling this story, 1370 01:12:16.579 --> 01:12:20.979 of creating these themes, he tells a very compassionate story 1371 01:12:21.050 --> 01:12:23.649 towards these little people that have all been fucked up 1372 01:12:23.710 --> 01:12:26.649 by science and it's not their fault. And they kind 1373 01:12:26.689 --> 01:12:28.449 of like find each other and there's a lot of 1374 01:12:28.569 --> 01:12:32.930 heart within it. And you never see them as scary 1375 01:12:32.949 --> 01:12:40.789 or weird or evil. You just see them as vulnerable 1376 01:12:40.890 --> 01:12:43.989 and sweet. And I think that's very important for the 1377 01:12:44.029 --> 01:12:45.069 movie to work the way it does. 1378 01:12:46.609 --> 01:12:47.140 No, for sure. 1379 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:50.220 And that's one of the things that I really like 1380 01:12:50.260 --> 01:12:55.039 about this movie is when you first see Tom, he's 1381 01:12:55.079 --> 01:12:58.779 the little genetic freak. But as the movie progresses, you 1382 01:12:58.819 --> 01:13:02.770 see he's the hero, or maybe he's not the hero. 1383 01:13:02.789 --> 01:13:04.829 The hero is Jack, a character that he meets later, 1384 01:13:05.069 --> 01:13:08.470 Jack the Giant Slayer, who's part of a race of 1385 01:13:08.510 --> 01:13:13.729 little people. Um, but the, the, the monsters are the 1386 01:13:13.770 --> 01:13:16.750 humans are the full grown human beings who have, you know, uh, 1387 01:13:17.189 --> 01:13:20.850 like you said, in the name of progress have fucked up. 1388 01:13:21.020 --> 01:13:25.279 Everything have, you know, created essentially like, like seems like 1389 01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:30.619 an infertility crisis. Um, the, you can see everybody's living 1390 01:13:30.659 --> 01:13:35.140 in these squalid conditions. Like the government has failed the citizens. Um, 1391 01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:42.340 the people in charge seem only interested in continuing to 1392 01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:47.109 make progress at the expense of just torturing and vivisecting 1393 01:13:47.229 --> 01:13:54.050 and mistreating these I don't know animals like when Tom 1394 01:13:54.069 --> 01:13:56.310 gets kidnapped and he goes to the laboratory and you 1395 01:13:56.329 --> 01:14:00.979 know eventually escapes with the help of this little skull 1396 01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:05.079 headed dragon lizard creature which is like one of the 1397 01:14:05.140 --> 01:14:08.489 cutest things little relationships in the movie, like him and 1398 01:14:08.529 --> 01:14:11.909 Tom's relationship is so sort of precious. 1399 01:14:12.770 --> 01:14:17.550 They've just become friends and it

ends very tragically. 1400 01:14:17.770 --> 01:14:21.170 And that's one of those moments where like, like you said, 1401 01:14:21.250 --> 01:14:24.390 like there's emotion here, but you're, you're only feeling emotion 1402 01:14:24.449 --> 01:14:28.909 for these, these marginalized freak characters. So it is very 1403 01:14:28.989 --> 01:14:31.989 Guillermo del Toro, right. Finding the compassion in the, in 1404 01:14:32.010 --> 01:14:36.329 the grotesque. And I do love that about this movie. 1405 01:14:37.090 --> 01:14:39.189 And I think there's something for people that are going 1406 01:14:39.210 --> 01:14:42.409 to be listening to a podcast called brain melt. There's, 1407 01:14:42.979 --> 01:14:46.659 I think there's some kind of, there's some ties that 1408 01:14:46.680 --> 01:14:49.300 kind of bind us all together. And I think that 1409 01:14:49.359 --> 01:14:53.420 part of it is this idea of like loving the weird, 1410 01:14:53.479 --> 01:14:56.560 loving the outsider, loving the, like having sympathy for people 1411 01:14:56.619 --> 01:15:00.199 that are on the outside. And, and I think that Borthwick, 1412 01:15:00.229 --> 01:15:02.630 you know, and I think in, in the spirit of, 1413 01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:06.979 wanting to celebrate the outside or wanting to celebrate the 1414 01:15:07.020 --> 01:15:13.699 weird or the unusual you there's a um a willingness 1415 01:15:13.720 --> 01:15:16.399 to kind of like stretch the imagination a little bit 1416 01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:20.680 and say okay this isn't a typical movie but you 1417 01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:22.840 know i'm interested in what they're saying and then eventually 1418 01:15:23.300 --> 01:15:25.140 just kind of learning to like love the fact that 1419 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:27.340 it's not a typical movie there's like a progress there 1420 01:15:27.359 --> 01:15:30.079 right and i think that this movie for me is 1421 01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:34.119 a perfect representation of that because if you're if you 1422 01:15:34.140 --> 01:15:36.220 just got finished watching and I'm not trying to pick 1423 01:15:36.279 --> 01:15:38.199 on Marvel, but like, if you just got finished watching 1424 01:15:38.239 --> 01:15:40.300 the new Marvel movie, the Spider-Man or whatever that came 1425 01:15:40.340 --> 01:15:42.579 out and like, those are the kinds of movies you watch. 1426 01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:43.960 And then you watch this, you're going to be like, 1427 01:15:43.979 --> 01:15:48.430 what the fuck? And that's kind of an appropriate reaction 1428 01:15:48.510 --> 01:15:50.989 because the difference between like what you're used to in 1429 01:15:51.029 --> 01:15:52.930 this is just like, it's not even the same universe. 1430 01:15:54.390 --> 01:15:56.710 No, for sure. For sure. I mean, this was the movie. 1431 01:15:57.210 --> 01:15:59.020 This was definitely the movie that kicked open the door 1432 01:15:59.109 --> 01:16:07.819 to like, this directly led me to, um going down 1433 01:16:08.060 --> 01:16:11.319 like the road where i discovered like spank meyer and 1434 01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:17.079 um yeah and other stuff yeah yeah which you know 1435 01:16:18.060 --> 01:16:21.289 uh so it was it was really cool discovering this 1436 01:16:21.329 --> 01:16:26.270 movie at like 17 years old and uh who knows 1437 01:16:26.350 --> 01:16:30.970 maybe that played maybe this played a role in my 1438 01:16:31.010 --> 01:16:33.229 interest in so many different types of film that I 1439 01:16:33.250 --> 01:16:37.029 didn't really realize. And also like at 17 years old, 1440 01:16:37.069 --> 01:16:40.250 you know, you're still developing, uh, you know, this, this 1441 01:16:40.289 --> 01:16:46.600 movie shows so much compassion for it's downtrodden characters. Um, 1442 01:16:47.739 --> 01:16:50.979 and so, you know, I mean, I just love it 1443 01:16:51.020 --> 01:16:52.840 so much. Like when you get to the lab, when 1444 01:16:52.859 --> 01:16:55.520 you get to the laboratory and it's basically like a 1445 01:16:55.619 --> 01:17:00.390 mixture of like an animal testing facility, um, a prison, 1446 01:17:00.989 --> 01:17:03.170 a laboratory, you know, it's all these different things. Cause there's, 1447 01:17:03.329 --> 01:17:09.489 there's odd machines and cages, jars full of goo. There's 1448 01:17:09.529 --> 01:17:12.819 like a full grown cow, uh, but standing on its 1449 01:17:12.840 --> 01:17:14.939 hind legs. And it's, it's like being held up and 1450 01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:18.579 being like this mechanical drill arm just keeps going in 1451 01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:19.899 and like drilling into its side. 1452 01:17:19.939 --> 01:17:20.640 It's very sad. 1453 01:17:20.659 --> 01:17:26.130 Um, there's some weird little like frog monkey type looking creature. Um, 1454 01:17:29.159 --> 01:17:33.420 but it's interesting because these are the play nation, the 1455 01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:36.060 stop motion, the puppets, because there's all these things in there. 1456 01:17:36.479 --> 01:17:39.020 None of them are like all that detailed as far 1457 01:17:39.060 --> 01:17:42.539 as like, they don't look real, but Borthwick gives them 1458 01:17:43.399 --> 01:17:47.659 so much sort of like emotional weight to it through 1459 01:17:47.819 --> 01:17:49.579 a mix of the sound design. Because I think that 1460 01:17:49.600 --> 01:17:51.840 is one thing that I really want to mention at 1461 01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:54.439 least is the music and the sound design in this 1462 01:17:54.479 --> 01:17:59.109 movie is so phenomenal. Um, like not just because the 1463 01:17:59.390 --> 01:18:01.449 music's great which it is i could i would absolutely 1464 01:18:01.510 --> 01:18:05.130 buy this soundtrack if it existed um but there's all 1465 01:18:05.189 --> 01:18:09.470 sorts of weird um industrial sounds happening throughout the movie 1466 01:18:09.649 --> 01:18:12.970 and these like strange kind of like i don't know 1467 01:18:13.010 --> 01:18:16.350

like shrieking voices in the background during things and like 1468 01:18:16.430 --> 01:18:20.609 mechanical or like digital beeps and boops um so there's 1469 01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:24.539 just this cacophony of sound um that really like drives 1470 01:18:24.619 --> 01:18:29.380 the the whole like vibe of this but um but 1471 01:18:29.409 --> 01:18:31.659 really I think like the most important thing in all 1472 01:18:31.699 --> 01:18:34.020 these scenes that we see in the, in the laboratory 1473 01:18:34.039 --> 01:18:38.220 and stuff is that it's, this society is clearly crumbling. 1474 01:18:40.619 --> 01:18:46.270 And it's, it's basically a society without ethical limits because 1475 01:18:46.310 --> 01:18:51.210 these people are, are just, I mean, listen, we do this, 1476 01:18:52.010 --> 01:18:54.760 people in our government and in our institutions do this 1477 01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:57.180 every day, right? Like there's animal testing facilities all over 1478 01:18:57.199 --> 01:19:00.140 the place. Like so much of the stuff we, we 1479 01:19:00.159 --> 01:19:03.460 purchase has been tested on, on living creatures with no 1480 01:19:03.520 --> 01:19:07.359 regard for their lives and their, their wellbeing, whether it's 1481 01:19:07.539 --> 01:19:11.170 factory farms or animal testing facilities, you know? Like, it's 1482 01:19:11.229 --> 01:19:13.529 easy to look at this and say, oh, well, because 1483 01:19:13.550 --> 01:19:15.850 these are little, like, you know, claymation creatures. 1484 01:19:16.729 --> 01:19:20.449 Oh, well, it's not real. Yeah, but the reality is worse, right? 1485 01:19:21.029 --> 01:19:23.899 And I know we don't like thinking about that. It's 1486 01:19:23.939 --> 01:19:27.260 easier to just pretend that doesn't exist because it sort 1487 01:19:27.279 --> 01:19:31.159 of encroaches on our sense of, like, being good people 1488 01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:32.590 with ethics and morals. 1489 01:19:33.510 --> 01:19:34.789 But, I mean, we're all sort of. 1490 01:19:36.270 --> 01:19:42.020 Willingly or unwillingly or inadvertently parts of a system or 1491 01:19:42.060 --> 01:19:46.619 systems that thrive off of the suffering of other creatures. 1492 01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:51.020 And this movie does a great job of, of showing 1493 01:19:51.039 --> 01:19:53.979 that and putting us right there in, in the point 1494 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:57.399 of view of this tiny little character with, with basically 1495 01:19:57.460 --> 01:20:01.430 no agency, no ability to escape his surroundings. 1496 01:20:01.699 --> 01:20:04.840 And, and we just go on this journey with him. 1497 01:20:06.100 --> 01:20:08.180 I think that that agency word is really important. I 1498 01:20:08.199 --> 01:20:10.449 think that's why it's so easy to sympathize with him. 1499 01:20:11.329 --> 01:20:12.470 Yeah. 1500 01:20:13.029 --> 01:20:14.850 And I think there's something to be said for the 1501 01:20:14.890 --> 01:20:18.689 fact that the animation is simple and being able to 1502 01:20:18.729 --> 01:20:21.489 kind of project your own emotions onto this movie. 1503 01:20:23.170 --> 01:20:23.890 That's a good point. 1504 01:20:23.970 --> 01:20:25.390 I wonder if that had anything to do with the 1505 01:20:25.430 --> 01:20:28.279 design of Tom, where he is very, like, he's very plain. 1506 01:20:29.100 --> 01:20:32.619 It's not bad animation. It's just very, there's no bells 1507 01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:33.279 and whistles to it. 1508 01:20:35.180 --> 01:20:37.560 Or it is kind of British style, right? Even if 1509 01:20:37.579 --> 01:20:41.859 you think of Shaun the Sheep, which is much more advanced, 1510 01:20:43.159 --> 01:20:46.100 these characters are always fairly simple. Thomas the Tank Engine, 1511 01:20:46.140 --> 01:20:49.460 which was so big in the 80s and 90s, was 1512 01:20:49.520 --> 01:20:54.340 literally just toy trains that had eyes and a mouth. 1513 01:20:55.739 --> 01:20:57.539 I think it is a little bit of a British thing, 1514 01:20:58.760 --> 01:21:00.979 which would have been kind of in his DNA, Borthwick's 1515 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:04.029 DNA a little bit. Yeah, for sure. but I don't 1516 01:21:04.050 --> 01:21:06.170 know if it's intentional or not, but the, the effect 1517 01:21:06.229 --> 01:21:08.789 is there. I think it's just like, I do think 1518 01:21:08.829 --> 01:21:11.649 it's easier to project your own emotional response onto these 1519 01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:13.039 characters when they're done simple. 1520 01:21:13.060 --> 01:21:18.640 Yeah. I, I, I do love like, especially when, when 1521 01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:22.760 they get through the laboratory, which as, as Tom and 1522 01:21:22.819 --> 01:21:26.409 his little friend, his little lizard friend escape, which unfortunately 1523 01:21:26.430 --> 01:21:27.300 the lizard doesn't make it. 1524 01:21:27.449 --> 01:21:28.689 Sorry to ruin that for anybody. 1525 01:21:29.210 --> 01:21:32.590 If you get attached to that character, um, but once 1526 01:21:32.630 --> 01:21:36.529 they get out and they meet the little, uh, what 1527 01:21:36.550 --> 01:21:40.899 do you call, uh, the race of little people, those 1528 01:21:40.960 --> 01:21:45.119 characters are more, I don't know. What's the word I'm 1529 01:21:45.140 --> 01:21:49.800 looking for? A little more elaborately created. Um, whereas Tom 1530 01:21:49.859 --> 01:21:52.500 is bald and just wears these little orange overalls and 1531 01:21:52.539 --> 01:21:55.899 he's just, he's just flesh colored. These other characters are 1532 01:21:55.939 --> 01:21:59.409 all fully clothed with hair and, and tools and weapons 1533 01:21:59.470 --> 01:22:03.500 and stuff like that. So, It does become more, I 1534 01:22:05.520 --> 01:22:11.989 don't know, elaborate as it goes. But I love that 1535 01:22:12.029 --> 01:22:16.869 he goes from this, we go from this squalid city 1536 01:22:17.010 --> 01:22:25.229 kind of scape to these cold clinical laboratory sets and 1537

01:22:25.250 --> 01:22:28.390 then out into what essentially is like a garbage dump. 1538 01:22:28.779 --> 01:22:29.000 Right? 1539 01:22:29.039 --> 01:22:33.840 Like there's no escape from, from the, the nastiness of this, 1540 01:22:34.140 --> 01:22:36.859 this world that these characters are inhabiting, right? There's, there's 1541 01:22:36.939 --> 01:22:43.270 nowhere that's like nice except for in Tom's. 1542 01:22:42.930 --> 01:22:43.569 Parents' home. 1543 01:22:44.130 --> 01:22:46.949 Uh, when he's first born, that's the only time that 1544 01:22:46.970 --> 01:22:49.689 Tom has any kind of like warmth, uh, that he's 1545 01:22:49.710 --> 01:22:50.250 surrounded by. 1546 01:22:50.270 --> 01:22:55.149 Uh, so yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm 1547 01:22:55.170 --> 01:22:55.890 doing a lot of talking. 1548 01:22:56.310 --> 01:23:01.880 Um, I wanted your passion for this because this is 1549 01:23:01.899 --> 01:23:04.699 such a personal love for you. I'm letting you talk 1550 01:23:04.720 --> 01:23:06.739 a lot on this just on purpose. I wanted it 1551 01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:10.500 to come through. I think I've said a lot of 1552 01:23:10.539 --> 01:23:12.039 what I have to say on it. I think this 1553 01:23:12.100 --> 01:23:16.699 movie works because he does a really good job of 1554 01:23:16.920 --> 01:23:20.500 making this a story about a son and his father 1555 01:23:20.520 --> 01:23:23.760 and the journey that he goes to find his father again. 1556 01:23:23.779 --> 01:23:28.779 And like all the world, you know, it's a, it's 1557 01:23:28.819 --> 01:23:31.220 a tough world and, and, and it's, and it sucks. 1558 01:23:31.939 --> 01:23:36.039 And like, you know, the, the, the scientists and like 1559 01:23:36.420 --> 01:23:39.520 progress and, you know, the, what's the, the many, the 1560 01:23:40.100 --> 01:23:44.020 industrial complex is like doing everything possible to like push, 1561 01:23:44.079 --> 01:23:49.060 you know, force him down and control him. And despite 1562 01:23:49.079 --> 01:23:52.189 it all, he's, he's like fighting and rebelling, but it's 1563 01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:55.869 in this very sweet way. It's almost like, It's almost 1564 01:23:55.890 --> 01:23:57.930 like it's not that far from that movie, you know, 1565 01:23:57.949 --> 01:24:02.350 Marcel the Shell or whatever. It's got somewhat of a 1566 01:24:02.409 --> 01:24:06.649 similar vibe there if like... It's like an inverse reality 1567 01:24:06.689 --> 01:24:09.010 of that movie where everything is just kind of slightly 1568 01:24:09.069 --> 01:24:16.039 off kilter and darker and more sinister. But the sweetness 1569 01:24:16.100 --> 01:24:17.399 is there, just the same, I think. 1570 01:24:18.340 --> 01:24:20.899 It is, yeah. Because that's the thing, there's a lot 1571 01:24:20.939 --> 01:24:21.539 of these. 1572 01:24:22.420 --> 01:24:25.300 little characters that he meets along the way, the relationships 1573 01:24:25.340 --> 01:24:29.779 he makes, even his friendship with Jack, who is, I guess, 1574 01:24:29.930 --> 01:24:32.010 I guess he's kind of the leader of the little 1575 01:24:32.050 --> 01:24:38.449 race of small people. Jack is, it's interesting because now 1576 01:24:38.470 --> 01:24:41.829 you've got these characters where, where Jack and Tom sort 1577 01:24:41.850 --> 01:24:44.609 of team up, but Jack is on a mission. 1578 01:24:44.670 --> 01:24:46.109 Jack wants to kill the giants. 1579 01:24:48.270 --> 01:24:52.489 I do love that, that reveal where, as soon as 1580 01:24:52.510 --> 01:24:55.310 you get out into the real world and he meets 1581 01:24:55.369 --> 01:24:59.069 these little people and you see the humans just kind 1582 01:24:59.090 --> 01:25:01.930 of bumbling around in the background, walking around, that's the 1583 01:25:01.970 --> 01:25:06.590 first time, even though you've seen, uh, Tom's dad with 1584 01:25:06.630 --> 01:25:09.149 him and, and you get this kind of scale that 1585 01:25:09.170 --> 01:25:13.470 Tom's much smaller, the dad's always seated. He's always leaning in. 1586 01:25:13.550 --> 01:25:16.829 It's very personal. Like you're in these very like tight spaces. Um, 1587 01:25:18.520 --> 01:25:20.380 but when you see them walking around there, that's when 1588 01:25:20.399 --> 01:25:22.819 you kind of realize, Oh, okay. These are the giants 1589 01:25:22.890 --> 01:25:27.329 from like traditional fairy tales, right? Where they're always stupid and, 1590 01:25:27.350 --> 01:25:30.289 you know, Jack and the beanstalk, right? Like we're always 1591 01:25:31.130 --> 01:25:32.989 from a young age in these fairy tales, we were, 1592 01:25:33.109 --> 01:25:35.069 we were kind of like made to think, okay, the 1593 01:25:35.130 --> 01:25:38.130 giants are bad. They're mean, they're evil, they're dumb. And 1594 01:25:38.149 --> 01:25:40.550 that's exactly what these people are. And it's really just humans, 1595 01:25:41.449 --> 01:25:43.989 these humans who are walking around and they're drunk and they're. 1596 01:25:44.229 --> 01:25:46.670 They're bumbling and they're idiots. Yeah. 1597 01:25:50.170 --> 01:25:55.010 And it's not funny, but it's interesting because the little 1598 01:25:55.029 --> 01:25:59.869 people characters are more humane toward each other. They have 1599 01:25:59.909 --> 01:26:04.250 a better sense of community. They get along better. And 1600 01:26:04.390 --> 01:26:07.770 they're trying to thrive in the face of massive adversity. 1601 01:26:08.289 --> 01:26:13.850 Whereas the dominant species are absolute fucking morons and are 1602 01:26:13.890 --> 01:26:15.140 just fucking this world up. 1603 01:26:15.770 --> 01:26:15.970 Right. 1604 01:26:16.050 --> 01:26:18.289 Which is why I think the insects are important because 1605 01:26:18.350 --> 01:26:21.250 it kind of shows like whether you're, whether they're the 1606 01:26:21.329 --> 01:26:23.649 bugs that are sort of encroaching and taking over these 1607 01:26:23.689 --> 01:26:27.060

people's houses and every, every domicile, like there's even that 1608 01:26:27.100 --> 01:26:30.600 scene in the, when they're in like a bowling alley and, uh, 1609 01:26:31.579 --> 01:26:36.859 you've got this one, definitely a transvestite, uh, a man 1610 01:26:36.899 --> 01:26:39.779 dressed as a woman and, uh, on a date. And 1611 01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:44.420 he's got this, um, like bro broach in on his dress, uh, 1612 01:26:45.579 --> 01:26:47.159 I guess you could, I don't know. I assume you're 1613 01:26:47.180 --> 01:26:48.890 supposed to obviously see that it's a man. He has, 1614 01:26:48.909 --> 01:26:52.930 he has like five o'clock shadow. Um, but the, the 1615 01:26:53.010 --> 01:26:55.989 pin is basically a live beetle, right? So they're sort 1616 01:26:56.029 --> 01:26:58.850 of like, they're being so inundated by these insects that 1617 01:26:58.869 --> 01:27:01.760 they're trying to find ways to incorporate them into, uh, 1618 01:27:02.260 --> 01:27:06.739 into their everyday life. Um, well, yeah, anyway, so the 1619 01:27:06.779 --> 01:27:10.319 journey of Tom trying to kill the giants, I'm sorry, uh, 1620 01:27:10.399 --> 01:27:12.520 Jack trying to kill the giants, Tom's along for the ride. 1621 01:27:12.619 --> 01:27:14.300 All Tom wants is to get back to his father. 1622 01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:18.520 And while this is all happening, Jack's dad, Tom's dad 1623 01:27:18.579 --> 01:27:19.399 is trying to find him. 1624 01:27:19.899 --> 01:27:22.220 And that's, again, like I said, that's the emotional heart 1625 01:27:22.279 --> 01:27:26.020 of the movie. But what I was going to say, 1626 01:27:26.060 --> 01:27:27.539 and I don't want to forget because I just remembered. 1627 01:27:27.640 --> 01:27:29.560 So you were talking about like matte paintings and kind 1628 01:27:29.579 --> 01:27:33.239 of like this. There's one blink and you miss it shot. 1629 01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:37.689 And it's between when Tom gets kidnapped. And I think 1630 01:27:37.750 --> 01:27:41.609 when he goes there in the inside of the laboratory, 1631 01:27:42.569 --> 01:27:46.060 when it's like a lightning flashes and like thunder cracks. 1632 01:27:46.659 --> 01:27:51.159 And there's this, it's supposed to be like looking at 1633 01:27:51.649 --> 01:27:57.609 the city or like the town, but it's, it reminds 1634 01:27:57.649 --> 01:28:03.399 me so much of, you know, Pied Piper, the Yuri 1635 01:28:03.420 --> 01:28:06.979 Barda movie. Oh, yeah. 1636 01:28:07.020 --> 01:28:08.979 Def Crocodile. No, Def Crocodile put it out, right? 1637 01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:10.020 They did. Yeah. 1638 01:28:10.060 --> 01:28:11.920 And it reminds me so much of like, because it's, 1639 01:28:12.100 --> 01:28:16.399 it's super highly stylized and the scale of it is 1640 01:28:16.420 --> 01:28:19.859 really odd, but it's like this great, just go back 1641 01:28:19.899 --> 01:28:22.859 and put it on YouTube and just like find that scene. 1642 01:28:22.880 --> 01:28:28.300 To

me, like that's the, that's the coolest exterior quote 1643 01:28:28.319 --> 01:28:29.649 unquote shot of the whole movie. 1644 01:28:29.689 --> 01:28:31.550 And it kind of gives you this. 1645 01:28:31.210 --> 01:28:34.689 Really, it's so artfully done. I wish they had showed 1646 01:28:34.689 --> 01:28:37.380 more of it. Um, yeah but i wonder if he's 1647 01:28:37.479 --> 01:28:40.880 like budgetary constraints or who knows what um anyway yeah 1648 01:28:41.300 --> 01:28:42.960 so i think it is a mix of matte painting 1649 01:28:42.979 --> 01:28:49.020 um you know a lot of like little stage setups 1650 01:28:49.060 --> 01:28:50.619 and everything i don't think any of this movie is 1651 01:28:50.659 --> 01:28:53.159 actually set in any kind of like a real place. 1652 01:28:55.029 --> 01:28:58.460 No, it's important that it's got that slightly, like, just 1653 01:28:58.520 --> 01:29:01.220 outside of reality feel, right? Because I think it makes everything, 1654 01:29:01.960 --> 01:29:03.239 it fits like a perfect fit. 1655 01:29:04.239 --> 01:29:06.439 Well, because it's supposed to be, essentially, it's just a 1656 01:29:07.239 --> 01:29:12.199 very bleak retelling of a fairy tale. So it's, you know, 1657 01:29:12.239 --> 01:29:14.460 a dark fairy tale. Certainly, I don't think I would 1658 01:29:14.479 --> 01:29:16.539 say this is like a kid's movie, but you could 1659 01:29:16.600 --> 01:29:19.880 absolutely show it to kids. Like, you know, there's nothing, 1660 01:29:20.180 --> 01:29:22.279 there's scary stuff in it, but there's nothing that's, like, 1661 01:29:22.819 --> 01:29:24.239 offensive to children or anything like that. 1662 01:29:24.680 --> 01:29:29.720 No, nothing worse than, if we're talking about... The Tindrum. Yeah, well, 1663 01:29:30.140 --> 01:29:32.939 forget Tindrum, yeah. No, but nothing worse than Pinocchio is 1664 01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:34.439 what I was going to say. That movie's got some 1665 01:29:34.510 --> 01:29:35.369 scary shit in it. 1666 01:29:36.159 --> 01:29:38.130 Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know what? That's a great. 1667 01:29:39.069 --> 01:29:41.390 I'm glad you brought that up because this, you can tell, 1668 01:29:41.409 --> 01:29:44.430 Dave Borthwick kind of wanted to play in that same 1669 01:29:44.470 --> 01:29:47.590 sort of sandbox of like, all right, we're going to 1670 01:29:47.630 --> 01:29:49.310 tell a fairy tale story, but we're going to tell 1671 01:29:49.390 --> 01:29:52.420 it a little bit darker a little bit scarier and 1672 01:29:52.640 --> 01:29:55.590 uh i mean even even some of those classic disney 1673 01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:59.729 movies from the 40s 50s were pretty fucked up like 1674 01:29:59.770 --> 01:30:03.430 there's some scary shit in those um i miss those 1675 01:30:03.489 --> 01:30:07.970 days where um even like big studio animated movies could 1676 01:30:07.989 --> 01:30:10.489 be could feel dangerous you know what i mean um 1677 01:30:11.489 --> 01:30:13.159 those days are so in the rear view at this 1678 01:30:13.199 --> 01:30:15.989 point like who knows if we'll ever get back to 1679 01:30:16.010 --> 01:30:17.569 anything like that, but yeah, we're. 1680 01:30:18.029 --> 01:30:19.649 We're too deep in the podcast to sit here and 1681 01:30:19.670 --> 01:30:21.689 like pontificate on this, but I do want to talk 1682 01:30:21.710 --> 01:30:24.149 to you about that or just like, I think about 1683 01:30:24.170 --> 01:30:26.800 that sometimes. Like we, like you look at dark crystal, 1684 01:30:26.850 --> 01:30:30.199 you look at, um, uh, what's the one, the willow, 1685 01:30:30.220 --> 01:30:35.119 you look at legend, like the labyrinth, like labyrinth movies 1686 01:30:35.140 --> 01:30:39.340 were fucked up, man. Yeah. But like, not really. They 1687 01:30:39.380 --> 01:30:42.520 were just, they were just like closer to, you know, 1688 01:30:43.430 --> 01:30:45.050 fear like they they. 1689 01:30:44.829 --> 01:30:47.329 Just they they didn't talk down to kids right like 1690 01:30:47.409 --> 01:30:52.880 jim henson understood so much about children like look at 1691 01:30:52.899 --> 01:30:58.460 the people who who kind of uh steered our generation 1692 01:30:58.539 --> 01:31:00.779 right and and and taught us so much like jim 1693 01:31:00.819 --> 01:31:05.210 henson mr rogers um you know the jim henson company 1694 01:31:05.250 --> 01:31:08.829 in general reading rainbow dawn bluth right yeah reading rainbow 1695 01:31:09.229 --> 01:31:13.800 like these were these were people who were artists, they were, 1696 01:31:14.239 --> 01:31:17.359 you know, storytellers, they were so creative, but they understood 1697 01:31:18.380 --> 01:31:21.920 children and they knew that you don't, you don't talk 1698 01:31:21.960 --> 01:31:22.720 down to kids. 1699 01:31:23.460 --> 01:31:25.279 You talk to kids, right? 1700 01:31:25.359 --> 01:31:29.239 Like you don't have to be afraid to, to show 1701 01:31:29.310 --> 01:31:34.909 something scary or something sad or confusing. Like, in fact, 1702 01:31:34.949 --> 01:31:37.850 you should be doing that because it helps open up 1703 01:31:37.909 --> 01:31:40.750 conversations and avenues for, for learning and development. 1704 01:31:42.050 --> 01:31:46.189 Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. And just opens up the imagination 1705 01:31:46.229 --> 01:31:48.859 in a way that nothing on YouTube now ever will. 1706 01:31:50.000 --> 01:31:51.439 Yeah, no, exactly. Right. 1707 01:31:51.500 --> 01:31:53.800 Like I don't think any of the kids watching a 1708 01:31:53.840 --> 01:31:56.220 cocoa melon are really getting challenged. 1709 01:31:57.399 --> 01:31:57.819 Mentally. 1710 01:31:59.130 --> 01:32:00.789 I want to talk about the end of the movie 1711 01:32:00.850 --> 01:32:06.050 because it's very ambiguous and very weird. 1712 01:32:06.670 --> 01:32:08.010 But I don't want to ruin it for anybody. 1713 01:32:08.130 --> 01:32:11.609 So we'll talk, maybe we can talk about it off podcast, 1714

01:32:11.670 --> 01:32:14.390 but I will say I do love the ending and 1715 01:32:14.430 --> 01:32:16.989 it's sort of like a, at least the way I 1716 01:32:17.029 --> 01:32:20.659 read the ending, it's very, it's probably the most upbeat 1717 01:32:21.199 --> 01:32:25.640 and hopeful moment of the movie. So I do love 1718 01:32:25.680 --> 01:32:28.720 that in a movie that's this dark and this dour, 1719 01:32:29.539 --> 01:32:34.409 Borthwick still decided to end it on, sort of a 1720 01:32:34.489 --> 01:32:37.109 hopeful note you know he wasn't he wasn't he didn't 1721 01:32:37.130 --> 01:32:40.470 make this movie purely like from a cynical standpoint. 1722 01:32:42.130 --> 01:32:44.170 Uh which i really appreciate you know i was just 1723 01:32:44.210 --> 01:32:47.210 thinking maybe we could do because you know we uh 1724 01:32:47.449 --> 01:32:48.649 well i don't want to talk i don't want to 1725 01:32:48.670 --> 01:32:51.069 spoil this because we can just focus on the movie 1726 01:32:51.090 --> 01:32:53.350 but we're going to introduce our patreon here in just 1727 01:32:53.409 --> 01:32:56.170 a minute and maybe there's something we can do where 1728 01:32:56.210 --> 01:32:59.010 we like keep recording and um and put that onto 1729 01:32:59.029 --> 01:33:02.390 the patreon or something um Because I think if anybody 1730 01:33:02.430 --> 01:33:04.270 watches this movie, they're going to want to talk about that. 1731 01:33:04.380 --> 01:33:10.079 We'll figure that out. But yeah, no. I mean, I'm 1732 01:33:10.779 --> 01:33:12.479 trying to think if there's anything else I need to 1733 01:33:12.560 --> 01:33:16.739 say or feel like needs to be said. I feel 1734 01:33:16.770 --> 01:33:18.609 like we did a good job of covering what this 1735 01:33:18.670 --> 01:33:22.600 movie is and whether or not you would like it. 1736 01:33:22.630 --> 01:33:25.329 If you're listening to this and you think you want 1737 01:33:25.350 --> 01:33:27.869 to watch it based on what we're saying, you'll probably 1738 01:33:27.930 --> 01:33:29.640 like it. If none of this sounds good based on 1739 01:33:29.649 --> 01:33:31.180 what you're saying, you probably won't. 1740 01:33:32.460 --> 01:33:34.520 If you're still listening to us going on about this, 1741 01:33:34.539 --> 01:33:37.010 you're probably going to dig it. Especially if you're somebody 1742 01:33:37.029 --> 01:33:44.989 who's a fan of the Quay Brothers or Svankmajer and 1743 01:33:45.029 --> 01:33:48.449 so many other great stop motion, especially Czech animators. 1744 01:33:50.960 --> 01:33:52.699 I think you'll enjoy this. 1745 01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:57.720 There's so much artistry here and creativity and interesting visual storytelling. 1746 01:33:57.840 --> 01:33:58.539 That's the key. 1747 01:33:58.960 --> 01:34:01.199 I don't know if we touched on this, but there's 1748 01:34:01.279 --> 01:34:06.500 only maybe like four lines of actual English dialogue in this. 1749 01:34:06.720 --> 01:34:09.619 Everything else is all of the human characters and everybody 1750 01:34:09.659 --> 01:34:16.010 else just communicates through grunts and grumbles, um, which is 1751 01:34:16.050 --> 01:34:21.449 really interesting. So the whole story is told, um, purely visually. Um, 1752 01:34:21.529 --> 01:34:23.689 and the fact that it's so easy to follow and, 1753 01:34:24.470 --> 01:34:26.170 you know, I mean, there's some weird shit where you're like, 1754 01:34:26.189 --> 01:34:30.600 what the, I don't understand what just happened, but, um, No, 1755 01:34:30.619 --> 01:34:30.979 but it's. 1756 01:34:30.899 --> 01:34:32.140 A familiar story. Yeah. 1757 01:34:32.699 --> 01:34:33.359 Yeah, exactly. 1758 01:34:34.100 --> 01:34:37.199 For sure. Um, I'm really interested to hear what you 1759 01:34:37.260 --> 01:34:38.119 paired this with. 1760 01:34:38.699 --> 01:34:40.279 Um, but you have to go first. Cause I went 1761 01:34:40.310 --> 01:34:41.489 first last time. Yeah. 1762 01:34:41.609 --> 01:34:46.050 Oh, that's right. Okay. So, um, to me, like 30 1763 01:34:46.050 --> 01:34:48.520 minutes in or something or 20 minutes in, I was like, Oh, 1764 01:34:48.550 --> 01:34:49.789 I know, I know what I'm going to pair it 1765 01:34:49.829 --> 01:34:53.550 with because I had a similar feeling to this. So 1766 01:34:54.010 --> 01:34:56.579 the last, I hope I get this right. The last 1767 01:34:56.680 --> 01:35:00.939 movie that William Castle ever made, um, Was a movie 1768 01:35:01.079 --> 01:35:05.239 called Shanks. 1769 01:35:05.319 --> 01:35:06.619 Didn't Vinegar Syndrome release that? 1770 01:35:07.539 --> 01:35:10.180 Sort of, yes. Cinematograph. It was one of their Halloween 1771 01:35:10.260 --> 01:35:18.520 releases one year. It is the craziest movie. First of all, 1772 01:35:18.539 --> 01:35:23.399 it's very different from a lot of William Castle movies. 1773 01:35:24.119 --> 01:35:33.649 It's like this story of this Frankenstein, the actual book, 1774 01:35:33.909 --> 01:35:35.130 there's a sadness to it. 1775 01:35:35.989 --> 01:35:36.470 Absolutely. 1776 01:35:37.029 --> 01:35:42.880 That's what makes that story so timeless. Frankenstein is the 1777 01:35:42.960 --> 01:35:44.880 basis for a lot of what we're talking about here 1778 01:35:44.920 --> 01:35:49.840 as far as loving the monster. Shanks has that exact 1779 01:35:49.880 --> 01:35:58.909 same emotion. It's a world where somebody is thrown into 1780 01:35:58.949 --> 01:36:05.050 this world and realizes that they're, you know, like it's a, 1781 01:36:05.670 --> 01:36:10.649 just like reality, but like slightly skewed reality, just slightly 1782 01:36:10.689 --> 01:36:15.710 different from reality. You, you really feel sympathy for the monster. 1783 01:36:15.729 --> 01:36:21.119 And it's a, it's the whole time you're just, you 1784 01:36:21.180 --> 01:36:24.899 feel like this is unlike any other movie I've ever 1785 01:36:24.979 --> 01:36:29.220 seen before. Even though it's, even though the

story feels familiar, 1786 01:36:29.260 --> 01:36:31.260 it just, there's like something that's a little bit off 1787 01:36:31.340 --> 01:36:34.300 about it. I found it in a, in a very 1788 01:36:34.359 --> 01:36:37.840 beautiful way. I love shanks a lot. And I think 1789 01:36:37.880 --> 01:36:39.890 it would be a really fun pairing with this movie of, 1790 01:36:40.020 --> 01:36:43.510 you know, two worlds where you, you cheer for the 1791 01:36:43.550 --> 01:36:50.130 main character and you feel the like, is it pathos? 1792 01:36:50.310 --> 01:36:51.289 Is that the right way to say that? 1793 01:36:51.489 --> 01:36:51.670 Yeah. 1794 01:36:51.710 --> 01:36:53.930 Like you feel all the emotions from the main character. 1795 01:36:53.949 --> 01:36:59.659 But yeah, There's very little exposition and you're just watching 1796 01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:02.239 these things and these sad events play out on screen 1797 01:37:02.300 --> 01:37:07.710 and death and all that. But no matter what, you're 1798 01:37:08.449 --> 01:37:11.250 kind of siding with the main character in a way. 1799 01:37:11.350 --> 01:37:14.010 So yeah, shanks for me. 1800 01:37:15.229 --> 01:37:17.470 I didn't know anything about this movie other than the 1801 01:37:17.510 --> 01:37:21.670 name of it and I can picture the cover. And 1802 01:37:21.729 --> 01:37:24.319 I had no interest because I generally avoid. 1803 01:37:25.729 --> 01:37:28.350 that line of movies are just basically all that stuff. 1804 01:37:28.590 --> 01:37:29.300 You know that about me. 1805 01:37:29.770 --> 01:37:30.220 Sure. 1806 01:37:30.270 --> 01:37:32.100 Not for any reason. I'm just, I just see, I 1807 01:37:32.109 --> 01:37:33.800 look at this stuff and I go, I don't know. 1808 01:37:34.380 --> 01:37:36.460 I don't see myself as like a person who makes 1809 01:37:36.479 --> 01:37:40.100 snap judgments. I just, with so much stuff to prioritize 1810 01:37:40.220 --> 01:37:43.720 and movies to buy and stuff like, you know, that's, 1811 01:37:43.779 --> 01:37:46.460 that's just a line that's run or flown under my radar, 1812 01:37:47.340 --> 01:37:49.520 but man, you're making me really want to watch this movie. 1813 01:37:51.460 --> 01:37:52.939 So I'm definitely gonna have to check it out. I 1814 01:37:52.960 --> 01:37:55.119 just looked up on letterbox and I'm reading the synopsis. 1815 01:37:56.100 --> 01:37:59.159 And I'm like, this is exactly something that I feel 1816 01:37:59.189 --> 01:37:59.729 like I would love. 1817 01:37:59.779 --> 01:38:02.069 Like, I don't know why I haven't checked it out yet. Yeah. 1818 01:38:02.609 --> 01:38:05.210 And a bunch of people that I follow on Letterboxd 1819 01:38:05.229 --> 01:38:06.850 that gave it like two, two and a half stars 1820 01:38:07.170 --> 01:38:09.149 makes me even more excited to see it because usually 1821 01:38:09.170 --> 01:38:11.109 when people rate things really low, I end up loving it. 1822 01:38:11.369 --> 01:38:14.720 So I don't know what that says about me. I 1823 01:38:15.340 --> 01:38:20.380 don't do it intentionally. But yeah, no, that's awesome. I'm 1824 01:38:20.399 --> 01:38:22.010 going to watch that movie and then, you know, we'll 1825 01:38:22.010 --> 01:38:24.930 uh we'll have to compare notes on it that's what 1826 01:38:24.949 --> 01:38:30.199 i do hell yeah um so for me at first 1827 01:38:30.760 --> 01:38:31.819 i feel like i always do this i always tell 1828 01:38:31.840 --> 01:38:33.279 you what i was gonna go with and then i 1829 01:38:33.300 --> 01:38:36.119 tell you what i actually so the first movie that 1830 01:38:36.140 --> 01:38:38.119 kind of came to mind for some reason when i 1831 01:38:38.140 --> 01:38:40.359 was watching it this time was um the city of 1832 01:38:40.399 --> 01:38:46.109 lost children just because of the atmosphere and the whole 1833 01:38:46.170 --> 01:38:50.310 vibe of it but i was like it's too It's 1834 01:38:50.329 --> 01:38:52.569 almost too similar in some ways, and I kind of 1835 01:38:52.590 --> 01:38:54.529 wanted to go a little... You always come up with 1836 01:38:54.550 --> 01:38:57.170 these really great pairings, and I always just kind of like. 1837 01:38:57.609 --> 01:39:00.029 I'm too on the nose. But as I was watching 1838 01:39:00.069 --> 01:39:02.430 it this time, it hit me. 1839 01:39:02.409 --> 01:39:05.960 Like a ton of bricks, and I'm so excited to 1840 01:39:05.979 --> 01:39:08.840 be able to pair this on here with this movie. 1841 01:39:09.939 --> 01:39:12.579 So for me, it's Mad Max Fury Road. 1842 01:39:13.939 --> 01:39:14.560 Okay. 1843 01:39:14.819 --> 01:39:16.380 And let me tell you why. 1844 01:39:16.399 --> 01:39:17.220 Yeah, please. 1845 01:39:18.930 --> 01:39:20.739 Now... Chris, you know this about me. 1846 01:39:20.819 --> 01:39:23.189 That is, I mean, listen, if I had to tell 1847 01:39:23.199 --> 01:39:25.090 you what my favorite movie the last 25 years was, 1848 01:39:27.289 --> 01:39:29.550 it wouldn't take me a heartbeat to say Fury Road. 1849 01:39:29.569 --> 01:39:31.090 That is one of my favorite movies of all time. 1850 01:39:31.170 --> 01:39:34.050 I've watched it easily 100 times at this point. 1851 01:39:34.350 --> 01:39:34.609 Sure. 1852 01:39:35.130 --> 01:39:35.770 I have a problem. 1853 01:39:37.970 --> 01:39:41.340 So here's, to me, what makes us a good pairing. 1854 01:39:41.600 --> 01:39:46.779 Not just the fact that we're in a world that's very... 1855 01:39:47.729 --> 01:39:53.079 broken um that was broken by people in power um 1856 01:39:53.420 --> 01:39:59.180 and following characters who are marginalized and and you know 1857 01:39:59.600 --> 01:40:02.520 uh genetically sort of altered whether that was because of 1858 01:40:02.619 --> 01:40:11.069 fallout or because of experimentation but the the the relationship 1859 01:40:11.329 --> 01:40:17.470 and the the journey of tom and Jack the Giant 1860 01:40:17.489 --> 01:40:23.649 Slayer mirrors very closely the relationship

between Max and Furiosa 1861 01:40:24.310 --> 01:40:30.890 where Max is essentially calm because he's a sort of 1862 01:40:31.850 --> 01:40:36.720 unwitting or maybe unwilling partner on this journey he's put 1863 01:40:36.760 --> 01:40:40.609 there because of circumstance not by choice Uh, he also 1864 01:40:40.649 --> 01:40:43.529 sort of lacks agency through a lot of the movie. Um, 1865 01:40:43.649 --> 01:40:45.689 Max is, is chained to the front of a car 1866 01:40:45.750 --> 01:40:49.550 for the first, you know, 20 plus minutes of the movie. Um, 1867 01:40:50.880 --> 01:40:53.680 and he is just sort of, he just goes along 1868 01:40:53.739 --> 01:40:57.199 for the ride. Same as, uh, Tom, Tom's just following Jack. 1869 01:40:57.359 --> 01:40:59.960 Jack has an ax to grind. Jack is out for revenge. 1870 01:41:00.100 --> 01:41:03.039 Jack has a mission that he's trying to accomplish. Same 1871 01:41:03.079 --> 01:41:10.090 as Furiosa. She wants revenge on Immortan Joe. Um, or 1872 01:41:10.149 --> 01:41:12.449 the fact that he's basically ruined all of these people's lives. 1873 01:41:13.289 --> 01:41:16.470 So as I'm watching this, I'm literally just like this, I'm, 1874 01:41:16.590 --> 01:41:19.810 I'm watching Furiosa and, and, and Max, uh, you know, 1875 01:41:20.430 --> 01:41:23.210 Max is just sort of like in it for the ride. 1876 01:41:23.229 --> 01:41:26.029 Uh, and it just really fit. And the more I 1877 01:41:26.050 --> 01:41:27.210 think about it, the more I think it fits. 1878 01:41:27.390 --> 01:41:30.329 So I don't want to go too, too overboard with 1879 01:41:30.369 --> 01:41:32.470 my explanation, but I, uh, I stand by it. 1880 01:41:32.850 --> 01:41:37.170 Hell yeah. Um, it's like a, there's like a progression of, um, 1881 01:41:37.850 --> 01:41:40.909 the destruction of civilization and like secret adventures of Tom 1882 01:41:40.949 --> 01:41:43.529 Thumb is like halfway there. And then we, we see 1883 01:41:43.569 --> 01:41:45.890 it like, there's like a jump in time, like a 1884 01:41:45.930 --> 01:41:46.670 hundred years later. 1885 01:41:46.729 --> 01:41:47.989 And it's Fury Road. 1886 01:41:48.109 --> 01:41:50.399 Yep. There you go. 1887 01:41:50.420 --> 01:41:52.229 That's my, that's my pairing. I love it. 1888 01:41:52.899 --> 01:41:54.319 Awesome. I didn't know you had seen it before. 1889 01:41:54.340 --> 01:41:57.220 No, yeah, no, I saw it for the first time 1890 01:41:57.239 --> 01:41:59.840 just the other day. I saw it for the first 1891 01:41:59.880 --> 01:42:03.369 time of that day, the other day. 1892 01:42:05.890 --> 01:42:11.029 Well, a movie, I think if we look at what's 1893 01:42:11.050 --> 01:42:14.229 coming up next, it's a movie that I could see 1894 01:42:14.289 --> 01:42:16.329 jumping up into my top 25. 1895 01:42:16.329 --> 01:42:17.750 Oh, man. 1896 01:42:20.029 --> 01:42:22.180 We don't know at the time of recording this if 1897 01:42:22.220 --> 01:42:25.079 we're going to be able to get Joseph

and Annie 1898 01:42:25.119 --> 01:42:28.300 from Bleeding Skull on. If by chance you're listening to 1899 01:42:28.359 --> 01:42:30.369 this and you didn't see my email, please check it out. 1900 01:42:30.380 --> 01:42:32.300 There's no way they're listening to this, but if they were, 1901 01:42:32.319 --> 01:42:34.039 I would probably just die of joy. 1902 01:42:35.560 --> 01:42:38.369 But we think it's time to celebrate bleeding skull. Is 1903 01:42:38.390 --> 01:42:39.069 that fair to say? 1904 01:42:39.090 --> 01:42:42.810 Uh, it's always time to celebrate bleeding skull, but absolutely. 1905 01:42:42.829 --> 01:42:46.689 Um, do you want to talk about, uh, a gruff 1906 01:42:46.750 --> 01:42:47.720 and then I'll talk about the other one? 1907 01:42:47.729 --> 01:42:48.829 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 1908 01:42:48.989 --> 01:42:51.720 So, um, actually it's funny because the two movies that 1909 01:42:51.729 --> 01:42:53.800 we're going to, that we're going to cover next time, um, 1910 01:42:54.100 --> 01:42:57.279 were two of the first movies to get added to the, uh, 1911 01:42:57.319 --> 01:43:00.319 brain melt list when it was in its infancy. Um, 1912 01:43:00.520 --> 01:43:04.159 when it was still only about, you know, five, 10 movies, uh, 1913 01:43:05.270 --> 01:43:09.890 And one of those movies, Bleeding Skull, I don't want 1914 01:43:09.909 --> 01:43:12.909 to jump to too many conclusions, but they have posted 1915 01:43:12.949 --> 01:43:16.449 about it on their Instagram, and they are going to 1916 01:43:16.470 --> 01:43:17.710 be showing it theatrically. 1917 01:43:17.989 --> 01:43:19.350 Apparently they cleaned it up. 1918 01:43:20.090 --> 01:43:24.960 It's a movie called Agoraf, also known as The Mad Mutilator. 1919 01:43:25.699 --> 01:43:28.739 I believe it's a French film, which both of these 1920 01:43:28.779 --> 01:43:31.399 movies that we're going to talk about are French films. 1921 01:43:32.159 --> 01:43:33.680 Just, man. 1922 01:43:34.369 --> 01:43:37.420 If there was a movie that I had to say, like, 1923 01:43:37.619 --> 01:43:42.960 this movie defines what Brain Melt is, like, this would 1924 01:43:42.979 --> 01:43:43.560 be the movie. 1925 01:43:43.779 --> 01:43:44.100 It is. 1926 01:43:44.119 --> 01:43:47.760 I don't even know how to explain this movie, man. Like, 1927 01:43:47.840 --> 01:43:50.970 just look up Ogroff. O-G-R-O-F-F. If you haven't seen it 1928 01:43:51.210 --> 01:43:54.810 and you like lasher movies or bizarre horror. 1929 01:43:54.590 --> 01:43:55.949 Movies, I mean. 1930 01:43:57.750 --> 01:43:59.710 We'll save it for the episode, but Holy shit. This 1931 01:43:59.770 --> 01:44:01.750 is one of the greatest movies I've ever seen. Like 1932 01:44:02.409 --> 01:44:05.220 instant five star. I remember I, I overpaid for the 1933 01:44:05.260 --> 01:44:10.619 DVD just based on its reputation and thought to myself, 1934 01:44:10.680 --> 01:44:13.039 there's no way this TV is going to arrive and 1935 01:44:13.140 --> 01:44:15.539 it's going to be worth the money I spent on it. Uh, 1936 01:44:15.939 --> 01:44:21.020 and I'd have paid twice as much if I had known. So, uh, yeah, 1937 01:44:21.239 --> 01:44:24.840 really excited to not just revisit it, but talk about it. And, uh, 1938 01:44:25.819 --> 01:44:28.479 the prospect of bleeding skull, putting out one of my 1939 01:44:28.659 --> 01:44:31.810 just absolute favorite insane movies. 1940 01:44:33.550 --> 01:44:36.729 It's interesting because on the Wikipedia page for a graph, 1941 01:44:37.050 --> 01:44:40.510 it says similar movies and it calls out 1989 is 1942 01:44:40.529 --> 01:44:43.630 a violent shit, which could be a potential future movie 1943 01:44:43.649 --> 01:44:44.789 that we cover. 1944 01:44:45.050 --> 01:44:49.729 I do love violent shit series. Uh, one, two, and 1945 01:44:49.810 --> 01:44:52.850 three are absolutely masterpieces and they are all on the list. 1946 01:44:52.949 --> 01:45:00.199 So, um, Okay, so another movie from France. There was 1947 01:45:00.260 --> 01:45:03.649 a set that Bleeding Skull put out, I think it 1948 01:45:03.659 --> 01:45:06.069 was this year, earlier this year. 1949 01:45:06.090 --> 01:45:07.489 I think it was, yeah. 1950 01:45:08.010 --> 01:45:13.329 And it was the films of Antoine Polissier. And there's 1951 01:45:14.630 --> 01:45:18.770 a ton of movies on this. That set is unbelievable. 1952 01:45:19.369 --> 01:45:20.680 That is an embarrassment of riches. 1953 01:45:22.029 --> 01:45:25.409 I think it's like 540 minutes of his movies or something. 1954 01:45:25.850 --> 01:45:29.390 One of the movies is like three hours long on 1955 01:45:29.430 --> 01:45:30.170 its own. 1956 01:45:31.909 --> 01:45:34.449 That's true. I'm just checking if there's still standards available. 1957 01:45:35.550 --> 01:45:42.489 To me, Folie Motrier and the films of Antoine Pellissier 1958 01:45:43.029 --> 01:45:47.270 is the must-buy of must-buys if you're into any kind 1959 01:45:47.310 --> 01:45:54.119 of outsider art. You can't have a more slam-dunk it's 1960 01:45:54.199 --> 01:46:00.079 somewhere between Jean Roland and like. 1961 01:46:00.159 --> 01:46:05.199 I don't know I don't know it's so fucking crazy 1962 01:46:05.779 --> 01:46:09.689 and I so the only one of that set I 1963 01:46:09.729 --> 01:46:13.729 had seen before they released it was I'm not even 1964 01:46:13.750 --> 01:46:16.289 going to try to say it but the title film 1965 01:46:17.489 --> 01:46:19.649 of that and. 1966 01:46:21.189 --> 01:46:25.640 What What a fucking banger, man. I think I had 1967 01:46:25.840 --> 01:46:30.050 initially discovered that movie through... What is it? 1968 01:46:30.250 --> 01:46:32.289 Somebody had made a list on Letterboxd that got a 1969 01:46:32.350 --> 01:46:36.890 lot of traction. It was the Murder Drone... Is that 1970 01:46:36.909 --> 01:46:38.729 what it was? I think it was the Murder Drone list. 1971 01:46:39.550 --> 01:46:47.489 And whoever coined that phrase

is an absolute genius. Because 1972 01:46:47.529 --> 01:46:52.310 if you say... Murder Drone, right? That's like Splatterpunk. You 1973 01:46:52.329 --> 01:46:54.409 know exactly what you're getting into, I feel like. 1974 01:46:54.430 --> 01:46:56.729 As soon as I read the words Murder Drone, I 1975 01:46:56.750 --> 01:46:58.310 was like, I know exactly what this guy means. 1976 01:46:58.439 --> 01:47:00.560 And when you look at the list, it's Day of 1977 01:47:00.600 --> 01:47:07.479 the Reaper, Agraff, Fully, Satan. 1978 01:47:05.920 --> 01:47:12.460 War, Devil's Story, like, Quisted Issues, Michael J. Murphy's Bloodstream. Like, 1979 01:47:12.939 --> 01:47:17.840 these movies all share that droning.... 1980 01:47:18.069 --> 01:47:23.069 Sort of mind melting quality along with just balls to 1981 01:47:23.090 --> 01:47:28.289 the wall murder. So yeah, just so great. And I 1982 01:47:28.329 --> 01:47:32.600 think it's great that both Ogroff and Foley's, uh, are 1983 01:47:32.640 --> 01:47:35.199 side by side on that original list. So it just, 1984 01:47:35.739 --> 01:47:37.720 the stars really aligned on this one. 1985 01:47:38.300 --> 01:47:42.359 Oh yeah. So we're gonna, we're going to cover those 1986 01:47:42.420 --> 01:47:45.960 two movies. We're going to celebrate bleeding skull, And we're 1987 01:47:45.979 --> 01:47:48.340 going to do our best to get the creators of 1988 01:47:48.380 --> 01:47:51.819 Bleeding Skull on to talk about these two masterpieces. 1989 01:47:51.960 --> 01:47:53.310 And I'm going to do my best to learn how 1990 01:47:53.350 --> 01:47:54.250 to pronounce all these things. 1991 01:47:54.970 --> 01:47:55.329 You will. 1992 01:47:55.569 --> 01:47:57.510 I believe in you. All right. Thank you. I appreciate you. 1993 01:47:57.829 --> 01:48:01.369 You might even learn French fluently. You have a whole month, man. 1994 01:48:01.609 --> 01:48:03.170 I'm downloading Duolingo right now. 1995 01:48:03.989 --> 01:48:08.760 No. There's all these programs on my IG that are like, 1996 01:48:08.840 --> 01:48:09.800 you want to learn Spanish? 1997 01:48:09.819 --> 01:48:09.899 Yes. 1998 01:48:10.270 --> 01:48:12.869 Three weeks, whatever. Some crazy. 1999 01:48:12.890 --> 01:48:15.739 Do you have 30 seconds a day? We can we 2000 01:48:15.779 --> 01:48:16.619 can teach you Russian. 2001 01:48:17.159 --> 01:48:18.710 Exactly. 2002 01:48:18.930 --> 01:48:19.569 Yeah. 2003 01:48:20.229 --> 01:48:23.909 Yeah, man. Thank you, Bill. This is a lot of 2004 01:48:23.949 --> 01:48:24.529 fun again. 2005 01:48:24.550 --> 01:48:28.069 Well, thank you as always, man. Like I'm like, I 2006 01:48:28.090 --> 01:48:30.130 say it every week, but love that we're taking this 2007 01:48:30.149 --> 01:48:33.909 journey together. And every episode has been more fun than 2008 01:48:33.930 --> 01:48:37.069 the last. So I really can't wait for this next one. 2009 01:48:38.869 --> 01:48:41.750 So I will be hounding you. just for everybody listening, 2010 01:48:42.189 --> 01:48:43.729 I have been trying to get Chris to do this 2011 01:48:43.829 --> 01:48:46.890 bi-weekly instead of monthly. I don't know if you know 2012 01:48:46.930 --> 01:48:49.170 this about him, but he has about 800 podcasts that 2013 01:48:49.189 --> 01:48:49.510 he does. 2014 01:48:50.289 --> 01:48:51.949 You can listen to all of them because they're all great. 2015 01:48:52.649 --> 01:48:54.859 But I'm trying to get him to quit maybe 10 2016 01:48:54.859 --> 01:48:57.039 of them so that he can just commit a little 2017 01:48:57.060 --> 01:48:57.819 bit more time to this. 2018 01:48:59.199 --> 01:49:01.159 I'm going to keep trying. We'll see. We'll see how 2019 01:49:01.180 --> 01:49:01.420 it goes. 2020 01:49:03.020 --> 01:49:03.239 Yeah. 2021 01:49:03.539 --> 01:49:10.239 I'm not totally opposed. I think there's a 2% chance 2022 01:49:10.310 --> 01:49:12.609 that Sean Baker listens to this because he follows us 2023 01:49:12.670 --> 01:49:15.470 on Instagram. So shout out to Sean. If you do, 2024 01:49:15.510 --> 01:49:16.350 we'd love to have you on. 2025 01:49:17.310 --> 01:49:18.270 Absolutely. 2026 01:49:18.569 --> 01:49:21.270 We can be found on Instagram at brain milk podcast, 2027 01:49:21.550 --> 01:49:24.029 and we're trying something. You're going to have to be 2028 01:49:24.069 --> 01:49:27.789 patient with us because we both suck at the internet, 2029 01:49:28.329 --> 01:49:33.960 but there's a Patreon too, which is patreon.com slash C, 2030 01:49:34.060 --> 01:49:37.159 which I think all Patreons have that. And then slash 2031 01:49:37.279 --> 01:49:42.930 brain milk podcast. and you'll see there's one chat in there. 2032 01:49:42.989 --> 01:49:46.229 We'll figure out what to post. And the idea is 2033 01:49:46.289 --> 01:49:49.470 just that eventually we're going to put Bill's master list 2034 01:49:49.550 --> 01:49:51.590 up there. And eventually we're going to put, you know, 2035 01:49:51.630 --> 01:49:53.890 some articles and some different crazy movies that we've seen 2036 01:49:53.930 --> 01:49:56.630 and we're going to be more active on it. But 2037 01:49:56.670 --> 01:49:58.989 the idea is to just keep a record of this stuff. 2038 01:49:59.029 --> 01:50:00.479 So it's a little bit easier to have it in 2039 01:50:00.569 --> 01:50:03.079 one place, but it should be free always. I mean, 2040 01:50:03.100 --> 01:50:05.000 there were, let me just say it this way. There 2041 01:50:05.020 --> 01:50:06.859 will always be a free tier. We're not trying to 2042 01:50:06.880 --> 01:50:10.850 get rich off this. It's just a place to consolidate everything. Yeah. 2043 01:50:10.970 --> 01:50:12.170 I mean, the more I think about it, the more 2044 01:50:12.189 --> 01:50:14.329 I'm like, I want to use it as a way 2045 01:50:14.350 --> 01:50:19.350 of like continuing the conversation about some of these writing 2046 01:50:19.390 --> 01:50:20.970 blurbs and stuff. I would even love it if there 2047 01:50:21.010 -->

01:50:23.010 was a way. I mean, again, we suck at the Internet. 2048 01:50:23.090 --> 01:50:27.229 I especially suck at the Internet. But I would love 2049 01:50:27.250 --> 01:50:30.789 to hear comments or get into conversations with people who 2050 01:50:30.869 --> 01:50:35.109 may be listening and have opinions on these movies. You know, 2051 01:50:35.149 --> 01:50:37.760 tell us what you think. Um, go to our Instagram, 2052 01:50:38.060 --> 01:50:41.060 leave some comments. Um, if, if you discovered a movie 2053 01:50:41.100 --> 01:50:42.899 through us and you, and you liked it or you 2054 01:50:42.920 --> 01:50:43.319 hated it. 2055 01:50:43.420 --> 01:50:44.560 I want to know, I want to hear it. 2056 01:50:45.229 --> 01:50:50.310 Like the fact that our episodes are clocking 70 to 2057 01:50:50.329 --> 01:50:51.750 a hundred people. 2058 01:50:51.550 --> 01:50:52.329 Listening, like. 2059 01:50:53.810 --> 01:50:55.890 That, that sounds like small potatoes to some people, but 2060 01:50:55.930 --> 01:50:58.670 to me, that's just huge. Like the fact that there's 2061 01:50:59.770 --> 01:51:02.109 more than a dozen of you out there listening just really, uh, 2062 01:51:03.909 --> 01:51:07.409 makes my day. So, uh, Huge appreciation, too, if you're 2063 01:51:07.430 --> 01:51:08.229 taking this journey with us. 2064 01:51:08.869 --> 01:51:11.050 Oh, yeah, man. And I'm going to do something that's 2065 01:51:11.069 --> 01:51:12.670 going to make you laugh. And I want other people 2066 01:51:12.720 --> 01:51:15.039 to go check this out. There's a comment on one 2067 01:51:15.079 --> 01:51:19.840 of our posts on Instagram that someone's trying to introduce 2068 01:51:19.899 --> 01:51:22.479 us to one of their friends who's really shy. And 2069 01:51:22.520 --> 01:51:25.909 we can reach out to her on Snap. Yeah, go 2070 01:51:25.939 --> 01:51:28.220 check it out. Go check out our Instagram. I tagged 2071 01:51:28.239 --> 01:51:30.899 you as I said, hey, you can have this one. 2072 01:51:30.939 --> 01:51:33.119 It seems legit. So go check it out. 2073 01:51:33.140 --> 01:51:35.119 Oh, that's too funny. All right. Yeah, I'm going to 2074 01:51:35.140 --> 01:51:35.560 check that out. 2075 01:51:36.699 --> 01:51:40.159 Anybody else wants to go talk to a shy friend? 2076 01:51:40.199 --> 01:51:42.340 I'm sure there's nothing shady about it. I'm sure it's 2077 01:51:42.380 --> 01:51:42.819 all legit. 2078 01:51:43.500 --> 01:51:46.699 Yeah, it's 100% above board. And yeah, I'm sure they're 2079 01:51:46.720 --> 01:51:48.000 not going to be asking us for money or anything. 2080 01:51:48.619 --> 01:51:52.310 Yeah. All right, man. See you soon. And I don't 2081 01:51:52.329 --> 01:51:53.670 know if I'm quite ready to say see you in 2082 01:51:53.689 --> 01:51:56.109 two weeks. Definitely see you next month. And we'll see 2083 01:51:56.149 --> 01:51:57.899 if we can't crack away to see you in two weeks. 2084 01:51:58.600 --> 01:51:59.119 Yeah, for sure. 2085 01:51:59.199 --> 01:52:02.600 I just need you to keep plugging away at Joe 2086 01:52:02.619 --> 01:52:05.340 and Annie and convince them to be on our October episode. 2087 01:52:05.380 --> 01:52:07.300 And then all will be well. 2088 01:52:07.680 --> 01:52:08.460 Putting out the good vibes. 2089 01:52:08.479 --> 01:52:09.439 That's right. 2090 01:52:09.460 --> 01:52:11.220 All right. 2091 01:52:11.279 --> 01:52:19.250 Take it easy, man. Thank you for listening. To hear 2092 01:52:19.310 --> 01:52:23.250 more shows from the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network, please 2093 01:52:23.289 --> 01:52:24.689 select the link in the description. 2094 01:52:37.270 --> 01:52:40.710 Greetings, welcome to Two in the Pinku podcast. Experience a 2095 01:52:40.770 --> 01:52:45.180 deep dive into softcore Japanese sexploitation cinema from the 60s 2096 01:52:45.270 --> 01:52:49.949 up until the present. With an emphasis on sleaze and seduction. 2097 01:52:51.029 --> 01:52:53.930 We are monthly or bi-weekly and we're not even bi. 2098 01:52:56.819 --> 01:52:58.859 Will Pink Film save our marriage? 2099 01:52:59.460 --> 01:53:12.489 Find out on 2 and the Pinkoo Podcast. The Audio 2100 01:53:12.609 --> 01:53:16.159 Commentary It's a dying art form, but here at One 2101 01:53:16.220 --> 01:53:20.770 Track Mind, I, your wonky yet affable host, Ryan Luis Rodriguez, 2102 01:53:21.270 --> 01:53:25.289 analyze film through the prism of these embryonic forms of podcasting, 2103 01:53:25.989 --> 01:53:33.060 one audio commentary at a time. Masterpieces, crapsterpieces, live action, animation, 2104 01:53:33.180 --> 01:53:37.020 cult classics, films literally no one has ever heard of. 2105 01:53:37.539 --> 01:53:40.739 No track is too small, and no track is too big. 2106 01:53:41.300 --> 01:53:44.300 Join me and my guests from the entertainment world as 2107 01:53:44.340 --> 01:53:48.899 we keep these features alive every other Tuesday. Hey, who 2108 01:53:48.970 --> 01:53:51.510 else is going to discuss Bill & Ted's bogus journey 2109 01:53:51.609 --> 01:53:56.449 one week, and Citizen Kane the next? Us, that's who. Sure, 2110 01:53:56.470 --> 01:53:58.329 you have to put up with my voice, but there's 2111 01:53:58.390 --> 01:54:01.649 a certain give and take in this industry. That's One 2112 01:54:01.710 --> 01:54:05.420 Track Mind, part of the Someone's Favorite Productions family, and 2113 01:54:05.460 --> 01:54:07.720 available wherever you get your podcasts.