บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Jessica Knoll's Masterclass on Thrillers, Unreliable Narrators & Our Obsession with Dark Stories

you that I don't think it would unnerve you. 00:02:59 Speaker 3: But I have a threshold than most. 00:03:01 Speaker 1: You do preference, that's true. What do you like to read on a beach? 00:03:06 Speaker 3: Really dark things that don't feel dark to me. 00:03:09 Speaker 2: The last book that I tore through on a plane was Would Be by T. Kara Badden, and that for some maybe disturbing, but for me that it kept turning like I couldn't stop turning the pages because the characterization of these people who either had done a horrible thing, had had something horrible happened to them, or were protecting the person who did the horrible thing was so real and so fascinating. And that's what I love about a thriller, is like getting into the mind of people who do inexcusable things and the way that behavior and violence is allowed and normalized. I just find it endlessly fascinating. 00:03:53 Speaker 1: Well, hearing you talk about what you feel is dark, like where the line is for you. I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that you actually started your career for the most part, in magazines. 00:04:03 Speaker 3: In women's magazines. 00:04:04 Speaker 1: Like Cosmo was one of them. It's glossy performances rewarded, and in so much of your work, it's like about the distance between who we are and who we are pretending to be. I couldn't help but connect that in my mind with your background. And I think in most thrillers the scary part is murder or distrust, But in Jessica Noles world, it seems like like inauthentic is the scariest thing a person can be. 00:04:29 Speaker 3: It maybe not scary, but boring. 00:04:31 Speaker 2: It's really boring to me, Like it's just not interesting, Like let me in, like let me into the dark corners of your mind. 00:04:38 Speaker 1: I want to know you must have been so interesting on a date. 00:04:44 Speaker 2: It's funny because my husband is like you, like he loves a rom com he loves anything that's like light and funny and comedy, and I am just like, I mean, I don't dislike that, but I'm just like, I don't know that, Like my murder programs and shows are like so sacred to me. And it's become like a solo ritual because he's like, I'm just not interested in consuming that kind of stuff. 00:05:07 Speaker 1: So you didn't want a partner that was going to go down the deep dark hole with you. 00:05:11 Speaker 2: I mean, I think, as most of us find like, we kind of can't help who we fall for. And I'm sure that there's some psychological reason that I was drawn to someone who finds what I find alluring. 00:05:26 Speaker 3: Kind of repellent for lack of a better term. 00:05:30 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love how often you play with the trope of an unreliable narrator. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, because what is an unreliable narrator? Are we all unreliable narrator gures? 00:05:42 Speaker 2: We definitely are, because we're all operating from like an end of one, like this is our own personal clinical trial,

Like no one else has had the experiences that we've had, the challenges that we've had. We haven't been raised by the same families and dealt with all those dynamics that I believe inform us way more than nature even, and so our perception is naturally going to not necessarily be based in reality unless you're like a very, very aware character, which I try not to have my characters be so aware, because then there's nothing left for them to learn about themselves, or like there's no moment for like that kind of big, you know, revelation to themselves like oh I've been I've been lying to myself, you know, I can't live this way, or whatever it might be. 00:06:33 Speaker 1: I was looking up the different types of unreliable narrators because it's like a literary device. There's the liar, which would be like gone girl, Yeah, the clown, which would be Ferris Bueller and Ferris Bueller's day Off. Oh interesting, the deranged or delusional catcher in the rye, the naive which is Forrest Gump, the madman, which is like American Psycho, the biased, which is Great Gatsby, and the forgetful, which would be Momento. Okay, how do you set up the unreliable narrator as a literary device for audiences so that they believe this person just enough to want to continue to read, but you know that there's some stuff going on. 00:07:15 Speaker 2: I like to let the audience at certain or the reader at certain points, to be a little bit ahead of the character at certain points, like I try, you know, when I go back and I'm in drafting and polishing mode, and like I have more control over the story and the characters. 00:07:30 Speaker 3: I like that as experience myself as a reader. 00:07:35 Speaker 2: I'm currently reading another very cheery novel called We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Schreiber. It's obviously came out over twenty five years ago, but I'm finally reading it and I'm just now reaching a point. I mean, it's the writing is phenomenal. I actually cannot believe a human being is capable of writing at this level. The character is so deeply drawn. I mean, I'm just like seething with jealousy that, like I, I will never be able to create a character like this, living and breathing. 00:08:04 Speaker 1: As can you break this down for me? What do you mean? 00:08:07 Speaker 2: It's just everything on its face? She turns it and then turns it back and turns it back again, and until you get to this level of understanding, because the novel is written as letters to her a strange husband who at this point where I'm at, he has had a breakdown and is in a psychiatric word after their son Kevin, commits mass murder, and so she's writing to him to say, like, we need to basically acknowledge like the truth of who our son. 00:08:40 Speaker 3: Was and like what our role was. 00:08:44 Speaker 2: I'm now reaching a point and maybe it's because I'm a mom now too, where I'm like, oh, I'm so on her side with everything, and I'm so angry at the husband on her behalf, like she's just gas lit like left and right, and he just refuses to see reality. But I'm at midway point and I'm like, oh, I I don't think I'm getting the true, the true story of this. It's a masterclass and unreliable narration. You're making me really want to read this book. 00:09:16 Speaker 3: I mean, but it's very disturbing, I will tell you that. But the more disturbing. 00:09:25 Speaker 1: It's so funny because if anybody looked at you, they would never know. 00:09:29 Speaker 2: I know, this is what everyone says I'm just like, I don't know, Like you see those tiktoks, it's like that like do like this is what the inside of my dog's brain? Like, yeah, sounds like I'm like mine is, Like. 00:09:42 Speaker 1: You should do an Instagram post where it's like the inside of your brain. Wait, who are the other authors? I loved hearing that you're so inspired by this author? Who are the other authors that just make you see with jealousy? 00:09:53 Speaker 2: Oh, Gillian Flynn, Like I don't even have to think about it, like I've been number one fangirl. I discovered Gillian with her second book, Dark Places, because at the time I was an editorial assistant at Cosmo. We still did summer fiction roundups, and so it was my job to like read all these advanced copies of novels that came in, and I remember Dark Places landed on my desk on a Friday afternoon and I was like, Oh, this sounds interesting, this might be good for like a summer reads roundup. I binged it in one weekend and I was like, who the hell is this Gillian Flynn? Like I mean more, and I looked her up and at that point she hadn't she was like two years out from publishing Gone Girl. 00:10:29 Speaker 3: Wow, but she had Sharp Objects, which. 00:10:31 Speaker 2: Was her first book and is actually my favorite of her three so good. 00:10:35 Speaker 3: It's so good, and I reread it all the time. 00:10:38 Speaker 2: And then she wrote gon Girl, and I was a little like I had that feeling of like, yeah, everybody catch up, Like I already. 00:10:44 Speaker 3: Knew she was amazing. Will she ever write anything again? Like please too? 00:10:49 Speaker 1: Like I just must be a lot of pressure after Gone Girl. 00:10:52 Speaker 3: It has to be. 00:10:53 Speaker 2: And also it's like she doesn't have to you know, she knew whatever the hell she wants, I just hope eventually wanted to think she wants to do is write something else. 00:11:02 Speaker 1: Every one of your narrators is in some way managing how she's seen. So Tiffany is curating herself and Luckiest Girl Alive, the reality star is in the Favorite Sister, and now Fay and Helpless who literally produces narratives for a living. Do you think that your female characters are actually unreliable? Are they just honest about the stuff that most of us try to hide. 00:11:23 Speaker 2: I think that's a great question and like a fair point that I think Fay is aware enough of the performance that's required of her, like not just as a woman, but as a woman in Hollywood.

00:11:36 Speaker 3: Which is like a specific type of hell. 00:11:39 Speaker 2: I think in terms of how you are being watched and surveilled constantly. So I think my experience of seeing my first novel and being a part of my first novel being adapted into a film, and living in la and being on set for four months, I had a new appreciation for the industry and like just a new insider knowledge about it that felt like I needed a place to put that, and kind of Fay. 00:12:07 Speaker 3: Offered me that opportunity. 00:12:09 Speaker 1: You're clearly such a fan and truly an artist writing thrillers yourself. What do you think a thriller can reveal about human nature that other genres just can't. 00:12:19 Speaker 2: What I like to think is that it reveals just how vulnerable we all are. 00:12:26 Speaker 1: Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that. 00:12:28 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that there is, at least for me as a thriller fan, there is something enticing about like this, like brush with a world where like something goes nightmarishly wrong, and how how. 00:12:47 Speaker 3: Would I deal with that? 00:12:48 Speaker 2: How do people deal with their lives being you know, going into upheaval? And it's such a range of responses. So I love that fly on the feeling wall of like how violence can like change your life, change the trajectory of your life, make you rethink your past, rethink all the choices you've made, and how it ultimately changes you. 00:13:14 Speaker 3: So that's why I'm reading and writing thrillers too. 00:13:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, you kind of caught me when you said how violence can change your life because I know you waited for a while until after you publish Luckiest Girl Alive to share about your own experience. You first said it was based on other women's stories. Looking back, I'm curious what did the fiction allow you to say that you don't think you were ready to share personally. 00:13:39 Speaker 2: It allowed me to just tell my story with the door closed and like no one demanding like answers or an explanation. There was no one there to say, well, then, why did you do this after or like, how come you continue to hang out with these people? Or whatever it was that somehow made my story and what had happened to me unbelievable. 00:14:04 Speaker 1: Made you an unreliable Now, yeah, it made. 00:14:06 Speaker 2: Me an unreliable narrator, and then it does make you question yourself. 00:14:10 Speaker 3: But like at my core, I always knew. 00:14:12 Speaker 2: I was like, I don't question what happened, Like I know what happened was wrong, was a violation, was a crime. I just had to be patient, and I have to bide my time, and one day there will come a moment where it will be right for me to tell this story. And that was in writing Luckiest Girl Alive, like it all just jelled and came together at that moment in time, and so I was just able to tell the story like uninterrupted in a way. And then there was still a measure of protection in

writing the story is fiction, because if for some reason, readers received that story and didn't call it what had happened to the character what it was, I would be protected from having to go through a second time of people minimizing what. 00:15:06 Speaker 3: Had happened to me. 00:15:08 Speaker 2: But if people called it what it was, then finally I felt I could feel validated. So I wanted to wait. I wanted to see what the reactions were. I wanted to hear how women responded, and that was what gave me courage to come out and tell my own story. 00:15:26 Speaker 1: Was it the compounding number of women that shared their stories with you, or was it one woman's reflection that encouraged you. 00:15:36 Speaker 2: I think the compounding effect and something that came up frequently was there were a number of women who were like edgy and how they asked me about that part of the story and like a nervousness about it. 00:15:54 Speaker 1: Interviewers or what do you mean. 00:15:55 Speaker 2: No readers at events who would like come up to me at the signing and maybe as they would kind of shyly say, you know that you know the scene was written so realistically, like you know, just wondering like how you. 00:16:10 Speaker 3: Were able to do that. 00:16:11 Speaker 2: And there was always like a moment where we would kind of like look at each other and like kind of both understand something interesting. 00:16:19 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so. 00:16:21 Speaker 2: Maybe it was that feeling of like why can't we just say what we're trying to say here that that made me feel bold enough to just say it. 00:16:42 Speaker 1: I think people tend to associate your books with true crime, but Annie's story was so close to your own experience. How did it feel for you to toe the line between autobiography and I guess true crime. Yeah. I think a lot of people talk about true crime or even thrillers as like a source of entertainment. Yeah, and so that's I guess the part that I'm questioning. 00:17:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, so with Luckiest Girl Alive like there, and especially at the time I was writing it, which I guess I would have started that book in like twenty twelve for it to have been published in twenty fifteen. We were not having like thoughtful conversations about violence and true crime and how we packaged it and sold it. So it was like not within my consciousness to like understand, yeah, like if I was doing harm or like to even just think deeper about how I was kind of like approaching this story. I always looked at it as like a ripped from the headlines thing, and I think I'd been conditioned to kind of pick at things like that or pull things out like that from my magazine background. Interesting, yeah, because it was like it was always about like the cover line. Like we had like cover lines where everything at Cosmo. But I still remember like one of the cover lines that they loved the most was it was called the most dangerous time in a relationship for a woman. Oh and so it's like, what is it? What is that time? I need to know? Like it was things like that that would just like beg a question, and so I always just looked at news at like the news, like with an ear to the ground, like what is topical? 00:18:27 Speaker 3: What is timely? How can I put my own spin on it? 00:18:29 Speaker 1: Like? 00:18:29 Speaker 2: That was my introduction as like a professional writer, like being paid to write, being paid to pitch ideas. 00:18:36 Speaker 3: That was my boot camp. 00:18:38 Speaker 2: So I think I approached novel writing the same way. 00:18:42 Speaker 1: You've talked about how seeing that scene depicted on screen actually validated your experience, which I wasn't expecting to read. What was it like to watch something so personal move from page to screen? 00:18:54 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, Actually, the where it really became an out of body experience was when we got to New York, because we shot most of it in Toronto, and then we did like the last two weeks in New York. The last night of filming was an outdoor shoot on Franklin Street in Tribeca, around the corner from Bubby's, and that was where I had my first date with my husband. 00:19:19 Speaker 3: It was where like my. 00:19:22 Speaker 2: Twenties were spent in New York, was like that area of the city, and that was the true And then the fact that like it was a night shoot. 00:19:30 Speaker 3: We ended that we all went and had. 00:19:31 Speaker 2: Martinis at Walker's, which was like I used to come here for like brunch hungover when I was twenty four years old. That was a true out of body experience to be sitting across from Milocunas having a dirty martini at a place that like I could barely afford brunch at when I was twenty four years old, and when I was like a lost little lamb in the city and had no idea how I was going to make it, how I was going to pay my rent, like how how I was going to live, what I was going. 00:19:55 Speaker 3: To do with my life. 00:19:56 Speaker 2: So like that was the most moving moment of anything where I was like wow, like I did something with my life, and like here the proof of it is like right here. So that's still like the warmest memory from the whole time on set. And that's saying a lot because it was an exceptional experience being on set and everyone said like, hey, you really lucked out. Like a lot of the actors were like it's not usually like this, you know. They were like this was like a special one. 00:20:25 Speaker 1: So why do you think what was the magic of it? 00:20:29 Speaker 2: I think our director Mike Barker, he was like the glue and everyone just loved him and trusted him and he has he has such like a lust for life. And it was COVID too, so like we were really we could really only hang out with each other because we had to be COVID tested every single day and we didn't want to delay production. So I think it kept the group like really insular, which sometimes that can be a recipe for disaster. But for

whatever reason it I don't know, it's the secret ingredient this time. 00:20:59 Speaker 1: I think it's so cool that you adapt and produce your own work. That's so rare for authors. 00:21:04 Speaker 2: How did Like was Ellian Flynn when Gone Girl came out, the news was like she was going to adapt it with David Fincher, and like. 00:21:13 Speaker 1: That was you were like, I can do this. 00:21:15 Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, an author can do this. 00:21:17 Speaker 1: That's cool. 00:21:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like a road map seeing that, Like if you wrote a book that did well enough and like commanded enough of like I don't know, like enough of a competition, that maybe you could say like, hey, like here's the condition, Like I want to be involved. 00:21:37 Speaker 1: So when you turn a novel into a screen story, you're sort of reperforming it for a new audience, right, You're choosing what's true what's going to be cut as being on that side of the camera changed how much you trust your narrators on the page at all. 00:21:52 Speaker 2: Being on that side of the camera has taught me. I don't know if it's about trust so much as efficiency that that has actually proved very useful in novel writing too. Like I always like to think of it as like no waste. Basically, like you use every part of the carrot, Like you even use like the greens, and you like watch those and chop them up and put them in a salid like right, That's what screenwriting taught me, is like every every moment, every character like needs to be like utilized because you just don't have that much real estate, so like you really have to make everything count. And I think Helpless is like probably, it's well, not probably, it's definitely my tightest shortest novel, which I'm really proud of because it's actually harder to write something shorter than it is to to write something longer. And I've struggled to like cut things in the past, and I really credit the kind of tightness of this plot and the like what I mean, the feedback I'm getting is like I read it in a day, and that's like all I want, you know, because like our attention. Read it in a plane ride, read in a plane ride, and like you could potentially finish it in a plane ride, because I just think, like there is so much competition for our attention these days, and like there's for mine too, Like I am not. It is hard for me to sink into things harder now than it used to be, you know. I don't like to admit that. So something has to like really like. 00:23:21 Speaker 3: Grab about the balls. 00:23:23 Speaker 1: Do you have a trick for grabbing people right away? I'll share this with you. I have a friend who's a writer who's also a screen like a director. Yeah, she was on the show. Her name's Chelsea Davonte's and she told me, write one true thing and that's your first sentence. And so a lot of times it can be contradictory, like this has been the best year of my life and I'm lying to everybody I know, right, Yeah, Like you have a

tactic used. 00:23:51 Speaker 2: I do think a killer first line is like obviously, but but I say that with a copyat that, Like, if I'm reading a killer first sign, it's killer because it feels effortless at the same. 00:24:05 Speaker 3: Time, can't be gimmicky. It can't be gimmicky. 00:24:08 Speaker 2: So and a lot of times, the overall experience of reading the book and the quality of the writing and the quality of the story, I can that that either proves that the first sign was gimmicky or not, you know what I mean. It's like the whole experience of the book. But yeah, I want like a really really dynamic first line is hard to be. 00:24:30 Speaker 1: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. 00:24:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, And for me, honestly, I think my favorite first ligne is from down a Tart's The Secret History, and I probably won't get it word for word, but it's it's like the snow was mounting in the mountains and Bunny had been dead for a week. 00:24:49 Speaker 3: Oh it's a good one. 00:24:50 Speaker 2: It's a good I mean, I now I need to read. Oh it's one of my favorite books. You have to read it. You have to read it. And the fact that like it's never been made into a movie, and they try and like Gwyneth Paltrow was supposed to start it in the nineties, Like it just like adds to the like the lore and the like mythology of it, Like it can't be adapted. It's like unadaptable because it's so special. I need a Jessica nol tbr list. 00:25:13 Speaker 1: Okay, like I make it a free download. 00:25:16 Speaker 3: We will all be entry on there for sure. 00:25:32 Speaker 1: When I was looking over your books, your catalog of books, I kept thinking these could possibly put be put into the female rage category. And so often your female characters get to have payback for what they've endured. And I think I figured out why I love your writing so much is because it's so satisfying to me. It's not just a woman sitting with pain. She's really externalizing it and acting on it. And I don't get that a lot in thrillers. Sometimes I get revenge, yeah, but it feels sort of played out. How do you think about it? Do you think of your characters as female ray genre? Yeah? 00:26:15 Speaker 2: I mean definitely Luckiest Girl Alive was like exploding with rage. I think that well, anger is like a normal feeling to. 00:26:28 Speaker 3: Feel, right. 00:26:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think any any well drawn character is going to have moments of anger and rage. 00:26:38 Speaker 1: But some of them are not well drawn, Like there was there was a movie I saw recently and the actress shall not be named, but she's screaming in her car. 00:26:46 Speaker 3: Oh, I know that's a real cliche. 00:26:49 Speaker 2: It's a cliche, and I've never I don't. I'm not screaming in my car or screamed in my car. No, never, you know. 00:26:56 Speaker 1: So your rage feels so relatable? Yeah, do you? I think there's a formula for making it satisfying. 00:27:02 Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of

how I write my rage though, is like it's it's interior and it's happening while while performing like complicity or complacency or like whatever, you know what I mean. 00:27:16 Speaker 1: Like, so we've all had that feeling. 00:27:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that's like a very relatable feeling, especially as a woman, you know, just like slapping a smile on, but. 00:27:26 Speaker 1: Like it's side you're boiling, Yeah. 00:27:30 Speaker 2: And you're seeing things, like you're seeing things that that maybe other people don't see or or the men in your life don't see. 00:27:38 Speaker 3: And that's always very enraging to me. 00:27:41 Speaker 2: Less so now that I'm in therapy, because I can appreciate the fact that, again back to the end of one thing, like everyone comes to life with a different experiences, Like I can't expect people to like get as fired up about things that I get fired up about because they haven't had the same experiences that make me so fired up, you know, so I try and have a little bit more like perspective. 00:28:04 Speaker 1: You must have a good therapist, because I knew. I've been in therapy for I think seven years, and I really If I'm in Los Angeles where I live and a car honks at me, I think that person must be having a bad day. And then I land in New York and a car honks at me and I'm slapping on. 00:28:22 Speaker 2: Their hood, like I think, yeah, right, Oh my gosh, this place makes me nuts. 00:28:27 Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes you nuts. 00:28:28 Speaker 2: And maybe it's like also more socially acceptable to be angry here. 00:28:31 Speaker 1: Yes, it is. Well, you know, when men are angry in fiction, it's kind of called a quest, and when women are it's rage. What do you make of that difference? 00:28:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very interesting because I think we're comfortable with seeing men express anger and it feels like an inherently red blooded American male emotion. And I just think anytime people act outside of their like assigned roles, it makes us twitchy, you know. It's like that's not how you're supposed to be acting, you know, And. 00:29:11 Speaker 3: Even even like I catch myself doing it. 00:29:14 Speaker 2: You know, and I'm like, I I think that's all those times that like women say, like I'm being a bad feminist. But you know, like it's hard, like you grow up with a certain set of like like social messaging, and then you have to like break out of it and like unlearn it. And but like those neural pathways are like well trod at that point. Sometimes it's like you have to like behave differently even if you don't feel the way you're going to behave, you can't behave the feeling you're feeling. 00:29:47 Speaker 1: Which is such a theme when you're writing, right, is that a theme? And helpless? Would you say? 00:29:52 Speaker 2: In Helpless, the question really is like she's kidnapped by her ex. He's holding her hostage in his remote cabin, and you won't tell her why, and ever she thinks it's revenge because of the way things ended, but increasingly it becomes clear that like something else is going on, and so as she's trying to answer the question of like why did he bring me here, I am also trying to ask the larger question of like what brought us all here? And like I hope the ending answers that because I think this is like an interesting moment in time for women's fiction, for pop culture, for just just seeing how like powerful certain things do, like Court of Thorns n' Roses like he did Rivalry, Like why are we attracted to like some of these you know, very spicy reads and shows that often have an element of like risk and danger to them, you know he did Rivalry is like the risk is like they're going to be caught and and I mean, I don't know if you read Cord of Thorns, and I'm obsessed with the series, but there's like what hooked me in book one was like there was a hostage element and she fell for her kidnapper, and like why is that sexy? 00:31:16 Speaker 3: You know it was so sexy, but like why is that sexy? 00:31:19 Speaker 1: Have you come to a conclusion, Oh, yeah, what is it? Well? 00:31:24 Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing in like the in terms of like the trend of dark romance and like romanticy is it's just it's a new name for something that has like been around for ages. Like we've always had erotica in like the seventies, we called them bodice rippers. You know, this kind of hallmark of all of these you know of this genre is sexual aggression, and I think there's I think it's been studied, Like it's not a I don't have an original theory, but I do think we are we are conditioned very young to you know, find a certain type of alpha male behavior attractive, even when it's toxic, and even when we know it's toxic. And I think the fantasy part that these books offer is interesting because oftentimes it's a fantasy where control is wrested from you, and that's sexy, but you would never actually want that in real life, but the fantasy is sexy because this fantasy of losing control or control being taken from you is actually within your control because you're the one crafting the fantasy. 00:32:41 Speaker 3: So it's like it like that interesting. 00:32:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's a level of there's a level of like power we have in like submitting to these fantasies where like you are submissive, you know, like they're like you're the one calling the shots in these fantasies. 00:33:00 Speaker 3: It is like coming from your own head. 00:33:02 Speaker 1: So fascinating. I think you're right. 00:33:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as the theory goes, Yeah, I don't even know if that's original, but that's mine. 00:33:09 Speaker 1: No, I like it. Okay. I always ask our guests something that they are so obsessed with that they could probably write a book about it, but they won't. 00:33:18 Speaker 3: Oh easy, Summerhouse Scandal. 00:33:22 Speaker 1: Did you watch the final reviewing? I haven't watched it yet. I'm saving it. 00:33:26 Speaker 2:

Well, did you hear we're getting like a bonus episode next week? No? Yeah, it's going to be like a sit down between Meha and Siara West and Lindsay and then Lindsay. 00:33:37 Speaker 3: And Amanda and then West and Kyle. 00:33:41 Speaker 1: First of all, Miha really came up here because she she's been named. This is the whole I was. I didn't watch Summerhouse, and then my best friend from college was like, you have to catch up in in about a month span, I watched nine seasons. 00:33:56 Speaker 3: Oh my god, you went back to like the archive. 00:33:59 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, had understand the lore. 00:34:01 Speaker 3: Wow. 00:34:02 Speaker 1: Okay. So, because you are such an expert at writing female rage, I wanted to walk through a few classic literary moments of rage and get your take. Okay, I'm thinking, like, what kind of rage is this? What makes it satisfying? What would you have done differently? Maybe? Why was it successful? Whatever you're taking Okay? Okay, So this is a very famous one, Carrie. It prom after the blood gets dumped on her. 00:34:26 Speaker 3: Okay, that's like revenge rage, I think, yeah. 00:34:29 Speaker 1: And is it satisfying? 00:34:31 Speaker 2: It really is because John Travolta the character he played and that was such a pig and I like still remember like when he gets in the pickup truck and then it like rolls and like seeing that like he knew he was in trouble. 00:34:45 Speaker 3: That was pretty satisfying. 00:34:47 Speaker 1: Okay, So Gone Girl was my next pick. But you can't pick a scene. The whole thing is female rage. Okay, crafty rage, very maybe the craftiest. 00:34:57 Speaker 3: Craftiest Like also like Elite. 00:35:02 Speaker 1: Would you have done anything differently? 00:35:05 Speaker 2: I don't think I could have even pulled that off, like to that level, like Amy Dunn is like that's yeah, like she's in a different stratosphere interas of yeah elite. 00:35:18 Speaker 1: Okay, So you mentioned Donna Tart's The Secret History. I love your take on the character Camilla. 00:35:23 Speaker 3: Oh. I don't see her as having any rage. She's so. 00:35:30 Speaker 2: Docile and like, but you know, she's framed through the lens of our narrator, who is a little bit of like a great gats of a little bit of a not Jay Gatsby, the narrator of Great Gatsby type, because he's a kind of infiltrator to the group. So Camilla is like probably suppressed rage. 00:35:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quiet. 00:35:52 Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't think she's like in touch with it yet. 00:35:55 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, she doesn't even know she has it? 00:35:57 Speaker 3: I don't think so. But I would think. 00:35:59 Speaker 1: That, like, because she's an active accomplice in two murders. 00:36:04 Speaker 3: That is true. That is true. I might be in fanalizing her a little bit. 00:36:11 Speaker 1: Okay, the last one, when Seeley leaves in the color purple. 00:36:15 Speaker 2: I mean that's like empowering rage, you know, like it's like you did something with it rage. Yeah, Like that's like it was bottled up and then like you used it for good. 00:36:26 Speaker 1: Yes, you left him. Oh, Jessica, I want to talk to you for two more hours. Okay before you leave me. What is the best writing advice that you've ever been given? 00:36:37 Speaker 3: You can't edit a blank page? 00:36:39 Speaker 1: Who said that? 00:36:41 Speaker 3: I don't know. 00:36:41 Speaker 2: Where I heard it, honestly, and I think heard it just stayed with me, and I think I've just heard like variations of it, you know, people saying like don't wait for the light bulb to go off, Like you know, inspiration finds you working. I think that's like actually a Dolly quote. But like the theme of all of all of this is like you just like there's no like bolt of inspiration that's going to strike you, and like are Eureka moment, Like You've got to just put pen to paper and like write something, even if it's bad, and then you can go back and make it good. But like you can't make you can't make nothing good, Like you have to start with your shitty first draft. 00:37:20 Speaker 1: Basically, what is the writing advice you most often give. 00:37:24 Speaker 2: That it's that same, Yeah, it's the same. It's like, just do it. You find your characters, you find your story. I mean, you should have some sense of what you're sitting down to do. I always have a little bit of like an like an incubation process, where like I have an idea and I think about like who the characters might be, who the players might be before, and like maybe I'll I'll kind of sit with that for like a couple of months, and then like I'll sit down, but it's still very half baked. Oftentimes I don't things don't really firm up until like the third or fourth draft, like it takes a lot of passes to get there. 00:38:00 Speaker 3: It sucks. 00:38:01 Speaker 2: Do you. 00:38:04 Speaker 1: Do you have anybody that you count as your collaborator? Like, do you bounce the ideas off your husband? 00:38:10 Speaker 2: No? Never, No, because it's just like not his his thing, it's not his Like the stuff I'm interested in in is like not the stuff he's interested in. 00:38:19 Speaker 1: Right. 00:38:19 Speaker 2: Really, my book agent, Alyssa Rubin is like the person I kind of go to first because that's how we started, and so that's been my process for every book since she's so smart. I know, she's so smart and she has such a good she's not afraid to say, like that doesn't work or I don't like that. 00:38:39 Speaker 1: She's told me that, Yeah it's important though. It's how I knew I could trust her. 00:38:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly because then when she says something is good, you know it's actually good. 00:38:48 Speaker 1: So if you have these ideas rattling around in your brain all the time, how did you decide Helpless was the next story that you needed to tell? 00:38:56 Speaker 2: Yeah? Because it was like really like you know, took up space in my brain, like it wasn't

letting go, and I just felt like, I don't know, like I was so I was so interested in this question, you know, of like why women kind of have these taboo fantasies, Like what's that all about? Like I really wanted to dig into that. And I think I've gotten better with time of being able to like discard an idea that maybe on its face seems like it has legs, but like I can already tell like I actually don't think I can write that, you know, of like recognizing like my limitations and kind of sticking to ideas that feel like I can actually develop this into something, you know, and I'm not just going to like frustrate myself and like waste my time and like go on a fool's Errand basically. 00:39:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're so incisive. Thank you and precise. I so enjoyed talking to you. 00:40:00 Speaker 3: I really enjoy talking to you too. 00:40:06 Speaker 1: Okay, friends, Before we wrap today's episode, it's time for another edition of the Booknook, brought to you by Cotton. This is our little corner for celebrating the rituals that make reading feel cozy and personal and completely your own. And honestly, so many of those rituals start with comfort, the kind that comes from the pieces closest to your skin, whether it's your favorite cotton tea, the soft tank you throw on after a long day, breatheable bedding, or the lounge staples you practically live in all spring and summer. Cotton has this way of making everyday moments feel softer, cooler, and a little more grounded. Let's hear from another Bookmarked listener about their ideal reading setup. 00:40:50 Speaker 4: Hi Bookmarked, Hi Danielle, this is Jay calling from Lawrence, Kansas. My ideal reading setup is actually what I'm sitting in right now. I am sitting on my couch with my cat, Ophelias sitting next to me. She likes to curl up next to me. She'll flop pretty dramatically into my side and of course want to be pet with at least one hand. The other hand, I have my book and on the TV in the background, just keep an eye on what's going on. I have a basketball game just to have a little background noise, and I'm sitting here with Ophelia next to me, book in hand. 00:41:32 Speaker 1: Jay, this is such a perfect picture of comfort. A cozy couch, a basketball game humming in the background, a dramatic cat demanding attention. Honestly, that sounds like a pretty ideal evening to me. And there's something so nice about those simple layers of comfort that make it easier to settle in and stay present with a good book. The soft tea, the lived in lounge pants, the breathable cotton basics you reach for without even thinking about it. Those first layer essentials really do carry us through everything from busy mornings to quiet nights like this one. I also love that your setup feels equal parts relaxed and lived in. That's the beauty of cotton to me. It helps you feel cool, comfortable, and fully yourself, whether you're traveling, winding down at home, or curled up on the couch with a pet who absolutely believes they are the main character. Cotton is soft, breathable, and doesn't shed microplastics, which makes it an easy choice for the everyday pieces you practically live in, from tanks and tees to pajamas and bedding. So friends, keep your ideal reading setups coming. I want all the details. Are you stretched out under crisp cotton sheets, reading on vacation and your favorite worn and tea, hosting a backyard book club in the comfiest lounge set imaginable, tell me everything, leave me a voicemail at five zero one two nine one three three seven nine, or email a voice memo to Bookmarked at Reese's book Club dot com. Thanks to Cotton for bringing this segment to life and for reminding us that comfort starts with the everyday essentials closest to our skin. Learn more at the Fabric of our lives dot com. That's it for this episode of Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. Our phone line is now open, so if you want to go nineties on us, give us a call at one five zero one two nine to one three three seven nine. That's one five zero one two nine to one three three seven nine. Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick, or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard, and who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode, so don't overthink it. Give us a ring, and if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's book Club is on Instagram, serving up books, good vibes, and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. And I'm at Danielle Robe rob a y, so come say hi and please seriously, DM me, because I actually read them and I love hearing what you think about the episodes, and don't forget to follow Bookmarked by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. We'll see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, Executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and Me Danielle Robe. Production by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schleied. Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our production assistant is Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder are executive producers for a Cast Creative Studios. Marine Polo and Reese Witherspoon are executive producers for Hello Sunshine, Olga Cominwa, Kristin Perla, Ashley Rappaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's book Club, and Ali Perry is executive producer for iHeart Podcasts.