บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Fourth Wing

00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:54.800 Like, what is it? 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:55.279 Right. 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:55.839 Right. 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:57.360 Absolutely. 00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:58.240 Yeah. 00:04:58.480 --> 00:04:58.800 Yeah. 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:00.160 And I feel the same way. 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:05.120 And you and I talked about this a little bit being this age and perimenopause too, because it was around that time. 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:06.959 So I had a two-year-old at that time. 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:10.480 So I was four about 41 when I had my kid, which is a little bit older. 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.959 I mean, it was fine, but I don't know. 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:18.639 So during the pandemic, you know, I was just like, I'm just so tired. 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.079 And I just kind of feel kind of terrible. 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:26.959 So I attributed that to the pandemic and having a little kid. 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.240 And even coming out of it, I'm just like, well, I just have a little kid. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:41.600 And um, I recently started taking progesterone because uh someone recommended and to talk to a doctor about hormone replacement therapy. 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.319 And I was like, I don't know, I'm just kind of like tired all the time. 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:45.680 I think it's just like having a kid. 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.480 I let me tell you that progesterone is really helping a lot. 00:05:48.480 --> 00:06:09.600 And yeah, yeah, I didn't realize that that was also going on too, aside from like right, having a two-year-old, uh, pandemic times, um, you know, relationship with my partner being like, oh, those were tough times, and that. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:15.920 And like, I don't know, I feel like I'm I'm losing my train of thought here, but I didn't know, you know what I mean? 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:24.160 That was like something else I didn't know that my body was aging and that I could, it could have been taken care of earlier, but I'm glad I have the resources now that I do. 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:36.879 Yeah, I mean, well, I think that there is now a generation of women in our sort of age group that are much more aware of perimenopause and the impacts. 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:54.720 I think there's lots of women going back generations who are like, I could have taken a care sooner, but that speaks to that systemic injustice where women's bodies in Western medicine are fundamentally seen through the lens of reproduction. 00:06:54.720 --> 00:07:07.360 Like most of women's health centers on a woman's ability to reproduce or to prevent her from reproducing. 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:18.160 And once you hit menopause, once reproduction is not on the table anymore, the attention to women's health completely falls off a cliff, right? 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:28.480 Like um, and so I don't think you're alone in in feeling the impact of those sort of systemic decisions that our own way of a society has made. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:35.920 And even, you know, like I also got on um, I actually got on testosterone for perimenopause. 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:48.480 And the funny thing is that like there are people who think that women don't have testosterone that like therefore must, you know, like and um and it's not covered, right? 00:07:48.480 --> 00:08:04.480 Like the the you know, hormone replacement therapies are often not covered by insurance, um particularly testosterone if it's for perimenopause, it might be covered for other things, and so they don't make it easy for women to take care of their own health. 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:06.959 Right, right. 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:17.600 And then we're we're um and then it is seen through a very like individual lens of how much are you doing, not how much is the system doing to make you healthy. 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:31.360 And there was this, I think I've mentioned this before on this podcast, there's this famous headline now from the pandemic that uh a journalist had written, most countries have a social safety net, the US has women. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:36.000 And then of course you're tired. 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:39.919 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:44.320 And everything that you said made me think of like 7,000 different things. 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:54.720 Like the first thing being like, I felt like my you know, primary care physician with the perimenopause, it was just like a quick checkoff, like I just want to talk about this, and then that's that. 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:56.000 You're gonna gain weight. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:03.120 And oh, and and she said, like, yeah, you're not gonna need hormones unless your like vagina's dry. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.399 Like, seriously, like that's what she said to me. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:11.440 And I'm like, okay, I guess I won't think about it then. 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:19.679 But it was only through like actually talking to someone like you and and friends and stuff and being like, oh, wait, this is this other thing that's going on. 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:32.159 Um yeah, and I felt like during the pandemic and also with this pain, too, this hip pain, because I've actually had it for a number of years, and I'm just like, well, it's pain. 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:39.440 I'll just like live through it, not kind of thinking, you know, oh, there's actually really something going on. 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:44.240 So I think that's speaking to kind of like what you're saying as far as like just dismissing it. 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:52.799 Even during this process, I would say I've been so frustrated with like I'm just trying to talk to my doctors about like how much ibuprofen can I really take. 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:54.799 And they're like, we better talk to you. 00:09:54.799 --> 00:10:00.080 Like, I think they think I want to get on like painkillers or something. 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.480 Um, which I get. 00:10:02.480

--> 00:10:08.000 Like they want to be really mindful of it, but I'm just like, I just like, can I take 600 milligrams of ibuprofen? 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:09.519 Like, you just need to tell me. 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:21.440 And just kind of I don't know, it's just been like this whole thing's been a weird process, too, where I haven't been feeling very supported by them. 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:25.440 Like I've been in a lot of pain, like a lot, a lot, lot. 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:32.960 And I just want them to be like, wow, we see you, and let's figure this out. 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.879 It's more like, oh, you got an x-ray, you've got some arthritis. 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:38.399 Talk to your doctor if you're still in pain. 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:40.080 I'm like, I'm obviously still in pain. 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:41.039 I keep telling you. 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:41.919 Yeah. 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.200 I keep telling you, like, it's not getting better. 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:53.759 Anyway, I actually have a doctor's appointment today, so uh, to be continued on how it all goes down, you know. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:54.399 Yeah. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:11:06.480 Um, but I think I bring that up just to say, like, uh, I think as a woman too, you know, it's like even with like childbirth and stuff, like you have to do it naturally, you have to do it all this. 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:26.080 And while that was my route, like, you know, like it's okay to have things at our disposal that are comforting to us and don't make us in a lot of pain a lot of the time, or don't make us tired all the time, or able to move our bodies in ways, and I'll say it about myself. 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:31.919 I want to be able to move my bodies in ways like I'll probably live another 30, 40, 50 years, hopefully. 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:32.799 You know what I mean? 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:33.200 Yeah. 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.519 Like, yeah. 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:41.440 I want to be able to do things, not be like pushed off to the side. 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:48.399 What is your relationship to either your body or to aging in general? 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.720 Yeah, that's a good question. 00:11:50.720 --> 00:12:04.799 Um, I will say, so the cell turnover thing, I I I think I brought that up too, because this year's the first year I always was a very active person up until I had my kid. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.360 And then the pandemic happened. 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:15.360 And we moved to a place where, you know, because I was riding a bike a lot, and just in our neighborhood, it's just everything's like in within a couple of blocks. 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:22.080 So and it's hard to ride bikes outside of those blocks. 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:34.720 So I would say this year I started working with a buddy of mine who focuses on women's physical health through perimenopause and menopause. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:52.879 And I would say, like, this is the first time in a

long time where I have been, excuse me, feeling like empowered to move in ways that I haven't been able to before. 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:57.679 And I noticed that it's like it's not what it is before. 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:10.320 Um and you know, I think when I say like I feel like I'm 39, you know, I just I look at I've been with my husband Tim for 19 years. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:16.159 And, you know, we just had our 15th wedding anniversary, and like we were babies when we met. 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:21.279 And like I just when I look in a mirror, I'm just like, who is this person? 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:31.919 You know, a little bit, you know, I'm not saying I'm like having an existential crisis or anything, but like, you know, I'm like, what happened to my skin? 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:36.960 Like, seriously, like what I mean, I know what's happening to it, but this is just what I'm thinking in my head. 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:41.679 Like, is is someone gonna find me attractive if I go to the grocery store? 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:54.480 Like, that's a I think that's a valid, you know, like I want to feel good, or like, am I just like, you know, is my nose just getting bigger and my skin getting saggier and my neck getting whatever? 00:13:54.480 --> 00:14:01.679 Like, and I know, like, I don't know, it's superficial, but honestly, these are the things I think of. 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:08.080 Yeah, like my hands are you know, we talk about our liver spots, Tim and I. 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:12.960 I don't think they're called that, it's just like spots or whole or pre-cancerous spots. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:13.279 Sorry. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:13.759 Yeah. 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:17.440 Um and I actually I see it in Tim too. 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.960 I mean so I don't know. 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.320 I just like I guess like talking about this. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:30.559 I I I'm watching this like terrible TV show with Courtney Cox, and I don't know, I watch stupid TV shows sometimes. 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.399 And I know she did a lot of plastic surgery just to feel tight. 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:38.399 And I'm like, you know, I I'm not that's not my path, but like I get it. 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:45.919 I could totally like get it a little bit of, you know, I'm pushing my skin back a little bit. 00:14:45.919 --> 00:15:01.200 So I'm just like in this place of like being very proactive and trying to take care of myself and feel like I can continue to move my body for 30 to 40 years, and I'm just feeling like not as pretty, you know. 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.279 I mean, that's the reality. 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:06.080 That is exactly how I feel about aging. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:07.120 Yeah. 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:09.759 I don't think you're alone. 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:10.320 Yeah. 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:29.440 I don't think you're alone, and I think um women are set up with a real sort of double bind where we're told like on on

one level from like the feminist perspective, we're told beauty doesn't matter through the male gaze. 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:30.879 That's all that matters. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:41.679 Um we're we're told we shouldn't be superficial, but then the world completely ignores us when we don't meet superficial requirements, right? 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:55.039 We we're told that we should be healthy and care about like aging well, but then all the examples are often celebrities who have had surgical work done or Botox or like whatnot, right? 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:57.200 Or really great lighting and wigs. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:07.440 You know, one of the reasons I really love Dolly Parton is because I saw, and not that I'm a huge, I don't know her music catalog, but I saw an interview where, you know, people ask her, How do you look so good? 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:12.320 She's like, Yeah, it's like really good lighting and makeup and wigs and plastic surgery. 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:18.080 Like that's how I look like that's how she doesn't look like I think she's like 78 or 79, right? 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:18.720 Like, wow. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.799 That's the formula though. 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:26.399 She doesn't say that it's like exercise and healthy living and I meditate every day, you know. 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:33.759 Like she's very transparent that it's an external intervention that makes her look like that, right? 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:34.399 Right. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:42.559 And very, I think very few women are not often given the truth about older women who look like that. 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:44.159 Right. 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:53.360 Um, and that's not, and and what I like about uh Dolly Parton saying this is also like I don't judge her for that because she's being honest about what the reasons are, you know. 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.720 I'm like, if that's what you want to do, I think that's fine. 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:06.480 I think it's harmful when people pretend they're not and then are held up as like models of health or you know, good aging. 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:07.039 Right. 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:20.319 Or we're not seeing like, you know, uh, I don't know, I don't know if there should be a responsibility, responsibility in celebrity culture, but it would be nice to see more aging people. 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:27.039 I was just watching something silly with Jamie Lee Curtis, who's who's quite a bit older than us, but you know, she's like rocking it. 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:29.759 You know, she's showing her gray hair. 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:42.079 She's Olivia Coleman was some is someone else who, but I well, I think this age is really interesting because it's like we're still in our 40s, we're not quite 50 yet. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:53.359 And, you know, it just would be nice to see more people who have the neck sag, who have the, you know what I mean? 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.319 Who have the whatever it may be. 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.680 It's interesting because the show that I'm watching, it's called Cougar Town. 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:00.640 I know it's stupid. 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.000 I know, I know I could spend my time doing other things, but you know what? 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.279 It's my comfort, okay? 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:16.640 And like, like a part of it is like she's like 49 or whatever, and there's a scene where she's like flabbing her arm and pulling her belly and all this. 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.880 And I'm like, okay, I'd be down with that. 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:27.119 But then there's these scenes where she's like, I go to spin classes three times a day, and I don't eat chocolate, I just suck on it for three seconds and spit it out. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:31.599 And I'm just TV shows like uh have a history of being problematic. 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.480 That's why I can't watch the Gilmore girls anymore because of all the fat jokes. 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:35.440 I'm just like, you know what? 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:36.000 I'm done. 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:45.200 I'm just like, I can't, I can't, I want to love you, but I can't, you know, and it's just like it's yeah. 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.000 I just think we need more. 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.359 And maybe it's me, like maybe I'm following the wrong things. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.440 Maybe I shouldn't be watching Cougar Town. 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.119 But I don't know. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:02.400 I I am trying to make an effort to, I'm on Instagram, but to follow people that I'm just like, wow, that person that person really resonates with me. 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:16.720 They have a body that someone else might think they're fit, they're fit, you know, but they've run like 10 marathons a year or a power lifter or you know, you know what I mean? 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:17.440 Yeah. 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.279 So a couple of things there. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:23.119 One, uh, no judgment on anybody who watches Cougar Town. 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.039 No judgment who watches Cougar Town. 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:25.519 Because you know what? 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:26.799 It's kind of funny and stupid. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.319 Or anything really. 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:28.880 Yeah. 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:38.079 What I would say though, to like sort of your question of like, how do I, you know, how do I, how can I be healthy and fit in your body and mind? 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:43.200 Like, I think we do have to take a very individual approach to like our media diet. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:47.200 Like, where are our vulnerabilities and where are our strengths? 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.359 Like, what are things that wouldn't bother us at all? 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.759 Whereas it might bother somebody else, what are things that we know we're susceptible? 00:19:53.759 --> 00:20:05.599 You know, there's a great um academic professor,

Christopher Bell, who gives us TEDx talk uh on where all the female superheroes, and he studies media pedagogy. 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.720 And he says, like, media doesn't tell you what to think, but it tells you what to think about. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:27.519 And so if you're watching something like Cougar Town, which is like sort of poking fun, but also glorifying disordered eating and like, you know, sort of eating disordered behavior if you're going to exercise three times a day, right? 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:28.799 That's not normal. 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.359 Also, I want to interject, she did it because she had a cinnamon roll the day before. 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:34.799 So that's even makes it worse. 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.599 Deeply problematic, you know. 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:38.240 Right. 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.920 And so then that's what you end up thinking about. 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:46.319 Even if it's not telling you, like you can understand that that is wrong. 00:20:46.319 --> 00:21:00.960 It can tell you that it's wrong, but you're still thinking about food and exercise in your own body, as opposed to if you were watching like a different show, like The Office, you would be thinking about like work dynamics and like how awkward, right? 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:09.519 Like that's it, that's what media does is it it doesn't dictate what to think, but it primes your mind for what you pay attention to. 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.160 Can I respond to that just for a second? 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:20.160 Because I want to say, like, we're being so careful in our family about our kid and what they watch and consume. 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:32.640 Granted, their brain is they're eight and their brain is, you know, not fully developed or whatever, but like I have so many feelings on like no phone until whatever, no social media until whenever, you know. 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:39.599 And this is a safety thing if they're watching like TV or YouTube, like one of us is there watching it with them. 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:47.279 But it's funny, but like for me, like I'll get on one of those paramenopausal four o'clock in the morning wake-up times. 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:48.319 I'll get on Instagram. 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:49.519 So you're just saying all this. 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:51.279 I'm like, oh my gosh. 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:52.000 Yeah. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.480 So when I so I worked at Sesame Workshop, which was Oh, you did? 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.880 Yeah, it was the nonprofit behind Sesame Street. 00:21:58.880 --> 00:21:59.200 Yep. 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:07.039 And Joan Gans Cooney, who's a woman who founded Sesame Street, she famously used to say, it's not if children learn from television, it's what. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:07.759 Yeah. 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:13.039 And throughout my career, I've also said, I was like, the same thing applies for adults. 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:13.920 Yeah. 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:19.680 Like, I don't know why we think that we stop learning socially from television. 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.119 We absolutely continue to learn socially from television. 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:28.559 And I think also one of the impacts of the pandemic is we stopped seeing people in real life. 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:29.039 Yeah. 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:35.519 People with like flabby necks or like lines on their neck, or like, you know, normal sized people. 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.920 And so then television became our norm of what we think the world looks like. 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:43.599 Right. 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:56.079 And so I think we have to be very conscientious or intentional about our media diet in the way that's like, just like we would be like, what sort of food am I putting in my body? 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.839 What sort of thoughts am I put and images am I putting in my mind? 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:00.400 Yeah. 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:10.880 And we don't have to be austere about it, just like it's fine to have a cinnamon bun, but I understand that it's a cinnamon bun and that it's not, you know, like I understand that I'm doing this because I like it. 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:16.799 I understand that, you know, it's not like I need to have other types of food. 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:24.960 And so if you like watching something that you know overall isn't good for you, that's fine to bin, you know, to have like junk food every once in a while. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.559 I don't think we should be restrictive. 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:34.079 But then, like, what is like the meat and potatoes and vegetables of what's like cleansing of the palate of like our media diet, right? 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:38.720 And and sometimes part of that media diet is also like not eating, right? 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:45.519 Or not watching, like, when do I need to actually go out and be with real people or have no media on whatsoever, right? 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:45.920 Right. 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.079 Or choose different things or whatever. 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:58.559 And actually, the great thing about us talking right now about books is that similarly, I was an avid reader up until I had Nina. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.960 And then, you know, just time and all of that kind of stuff. 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:07.599 And it's actually been this past year where it picked up again. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:18.480 So, you know, as far as like media consumption and I do audiobooks, I always get an audiobook and the physical book because I don't know like where I'm gonna want to enjoy it. 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:24.960 And so like nighttime was definitely my bad, bad media consumption thing. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.559 And um, but that has switched a lot. 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:31.839 Like I'll go to sleep or I'll get into bed. 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:37.200 And of course, now it's like I got the heating pad or I've got a Tens machine on

or whatever. 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:47.119 You know, instead of watching something stupid like I put on like last night, I just put on my like most recent, you know, book that I'm listening to. 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:47.920 Yeah. 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.359 I did watch Project Runway as well, but I love Project Runway. 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:53.440 Okay, like that is like my thing. 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:56.400 And listen, like you watch Project Runway. 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:58.720 I am not on Project Runway yet. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:09.759 I'm not a big reality TV type of person, but I definitely have like my comfort watches and like stuff that I like that's weird or like or that people could judge me for, right? 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:15.119 Like, I'm actually one of the things people do judge me for, I'm super into Star Trek in a way that's weird. 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.079 I feel like that is a good judgment, though. 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:27.200 I feel like I've known I have not been a Star Trek person, but there have been so many people in my life who have been into Star Trek, and I'm like, that person's awesome. 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:37.440 Yeah, I I kind of believe that because I just I've well, the one of the reasons I'm into sort of sci-fi now is because it's a nice distraction from reality. 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:38.240 Yeah. 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.200 Right. 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:52.640 Um, I've also super been into like, I think I shared this previously that like, you know, at the start of the year and then like after the election, I binged a lot of like fantasy romance. 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:54.240 Oh, yeah, totally. 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:54.880 Right. 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.640 And like, and I was like, I never thought I would be into this, but like now I am. 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:04.480 And it and I've recommended it to girlfriends who have all been like, that was the best break from reality I could get. 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:05.599 It was totally immersive. 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:07.279 What did you watch? 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:09.039 What's a fantasy romance? 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:22.640 So yeah, so um, well, I wasn't expecting this book to be the one of the ones I recommend, but uh Fourth Wing, which is also kind of violent, which is not usually my deal, um, but super immersive. 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.400 And actually, I just spoke to my best friend. 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.480 She's like, I stayed up, she has two kids, and she's like, I stayed up at night reading it. 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:34.880 It was so like immersive and addictive, and it was such a great break from like responsibility and dealing with the world. 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:36.160 Is it steamy? 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:37.599 It is very steamy. 00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:38.480 It's very steamy. 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:47.599 I read a steamy book for the first time this past year, and I was like, ooh, I kind of into this. 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:49.839 Yes, like I didn't think. 00:26:50.160 --> 00:27:06.000 I was on a call with a bunch of people in public media, and I mentioned this, and then I saw one of them at a conference, and they came up to me and said, Thank you for saying that, because I've always been into romance, but I've always been a little bit ashamed, like it wasn't intellectual enough. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:09.279 And I so appreciated you just sort of owning it. 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:14.559 And I and it is some of the smartest women I know who are into this, I will admit. 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:16.000 Like, yeah. 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.640 So I highly recommend that. 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:25.359 But my book recommendation for you was in addition to Fourth Wing, okay. 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:32.880 Um, because you know, if you need a break from it all, I was also going to recommend for you uh Reclaiming Body Trust. 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.400 Have you heard of this? 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.240 It sounds familiar, but I I need to hear a little bit more. 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:45.200 Yeah, so it's uh it's called Reclaiming Body Trust, Break Free from a Culture of Body Perfection, Disordered Eating, and Other Traumas. 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:52.160 It's by Hilary Kinavy and Dana Sturt Sturdevant, I believe is how you pronounce their names. 00:27:52.160 --> 00:28:03.920 Um, and I think you would really like it because one of the things that I had to do, um, and and this book helped me get there. 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:19.119 Um, when I turned like 45 and I, you know, the pandemic and um I started also having chronic pain and perimenopause and my weight changed was I really had to change my relationship to my body and to exercise. 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:32.240 I had to start to see exercise as something that would allow me to maintain functional independence when I'm 80 rather than something that was about sculpting my body or how I looked. 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:41.839 Um, which I think for any of us who grew up in the 90s, all of the messaging around exercise was about weight loss and how you look. 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:48.960 There's a real um, there was also a real message that like weight equals health, and that's not true. 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.000 Right. 00:28:50.000 --> 00:29:00.799 And and this book also talks about, it talks about it from a very systemic lens of like um if anyone grew up with food insecurity, right? 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:12.079 Like disordered eating, not just denial, but also like, you know, overindulgence in eating is a trauma response from never knowing when there was going to be enough food on the table and things like that, right? 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:26.240 And so they have really practical interventions that are not about the next diet phase, but changing your relationship to food, changing your relationship to your body, like what it's meant to do over the course of a lifetime. 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:36.319 Um, being much

more because I I feel the same things you do, like my energy levels have shifted right when I think I'm my most interesting and should be doing the most in the world. 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.480 And that's really frustrating, right? 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:51.039 But then I think once you realize how little um time you have and how your energy is limited, you become like a thousand times more intentional in where you spend it. 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:59.839 And the liberating part about that is that you really start to drop things that in your 20s and 30s would be things you would room. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:12.960 About or be upset, or like you're just kind of like, I don't have energy to be angry about this, or to deal with this person who can't be reciprocal in a relationship, or you know, a stupid like turf battle at work. 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:20.640 Like these all things, like they start to drop from your like mental space because you're like, that's not going to be good for what I want. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:40.000 And so um, but I think it really starts with changing your relationship to your body and understanding the program many of us received around food and exercise, and then making intentional choices not to reinforce that programming going forward. 00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:41.119 Right. 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:43.039 Yeah, I love that. 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:54.960 Um, and I'm gonna add that to my list of books to get out of the library, and you know, it's really interesting to just to reflect back, and thank you. 00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:16.720 To reflect back on some of the things you were saying, and yes, in the 90s and all that kind of stuff, and being someone with a bigger body and going to a nutritionist at whatever, and like not, you know, being introduced to sports because people thought I I wouldn't like that because I had a bigger body, which was not true at all. 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.960 No, yeah, no, not at all. 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:40.640 And also with media like this media conversation has been really interesting too, because I don't think you're on Instagram because we talked about this before, but I am, and um it's interesting to see the now in my feed are all the 50-ish age women working out and their bodies. 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.839 And I'm just like, oh, is that what I'm supposed to? 00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:45.200 You know what I mean? 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.559 So it's it's like it's not just the 90s, it's always. 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.440 And so this sounds like really refreshing and and helpful for me. 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.839 And and I'm also a hundred percent with you as far as like exercise, too. 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:07.200 Like, I I also want to be independent as I get older, and I want to be strong and be able to do some things that are fun and you know. 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:19.279 Well, and I'll also say I'll also just sort of tap into your identity as a mom and and how you talked

about how much and thoughtfulness you put into what your child is like consuming in terms of media. 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:29.119 You know, when you said that, I was reminded that like, you know, my parents always had a cabinet full of liquor growing up, but I never saw them drink it. 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:35.200 They never really drank, I never really saw any of them like drunk. 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:44.559 And so what what that taught me is that you can be around alcohol and not abuse it instead of telling us you should or shouldn't drink. 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.200 Right. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:50.240 And you know, like they they often say, example is the only teacher, right? 00:32:50.240 --> 00:33:08.559 And so if you're instead of telling your eight-year-old what they can or cannot watch, if they see you modeling like, oh yeah, I don't want to watch this because this isn't gonna like make me feel good about myself, like I don't want to be on social media before bed because that's not gonna let me have a good night's sleep. 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:12.400 That's gonna put, you know, preoccupations in my mind that I don't want. 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:18.319 I'm gonna be really intentional about how I curate who I follow and like what I want to look to look at, right? 00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:29.359 That shows them showing them how to interact with media will be a better teacher than putting external limits on them that they want to rebel against. 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.160 For sure. 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:31.119 Absolutely. 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.839 Yeah, and even like relationships to the phone, too. 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:35.839 And that's something we've talked about as a family. 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:40.640 And they're even like, well, you tell me I can't be on my phone, but you're on my phone, and you're like, you know what? 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:41.599 You're totally right. 00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:46.559 Yeah, you're like 100% right, and we gotta work on that. 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:54.720 So I hear you, and the same thing in relationship to food, and the same thing in relationship to exercise, and the same, you know, all of all of that. 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:57.519 Like, I'm not forcing you to exercise at all. 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.720 They happen to be naturally a very active person, but you know what? 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.039 I'm gonna take time for myself and exercise. 00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:03.519 Yeah. 00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:08.000 And you need to, you need to do something while I do that because it's important. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.760 Same, yeah, I hear you. 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:13.440 I really resonate with all of that. 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:20.800 Well, and I think it's a radical act of love towards yourself that then also becomes a radical act of love towards your child. 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.039 Right. 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:35.920 I don't think enough mothers or women are taught how loving yourself, like genuinely pouring love into yourself also benefits the people that you want to pour love into. 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:36.480 Absolutely. 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:44.800 I think we're we're taught that love is about giving to other people at our own sacrifice or at our own exhaustion. 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:56.000 We're not taught how actually filling up our own cup and replenishing ourselves could be a back an act of love towards us and towards someone else. 00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:57.119 Absolutely. 00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:05.760 And it's funny you say that because so I had my birthday, and then I'm good tomorrow, every once in a while I do this, but tomorrow night I'm staying in a hotel by myself. 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.280 And Nina was like, and I'm just like, you know what? 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:11.599 This is uh just mom's going on. 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.960 I'm doing my staycation thing, and I'm taking time to myself. 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:17.119 And that's my favorite thing to do. 00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:25.119 I mean, I'm not a mom, but like oh yeah, like just having a like a a hotel or an Airbnb sometimes. 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.239 Yeah, sometimes I mean I love Tim, but you know what I'm saying? 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:31.840 Like, I gotta be alone, yo. 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.320 Yeah, like I just gotta go. 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:40.159 And we use Tim Point, Tim's Point, so I got it's like 30 bucks to stay at this like really nice hotel. 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:48.960 So it's I I and I appreciate you saying that too, because you know, yeah. 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:53.280 There's a lot, and we run our own businesses too, so there's a lot of energy going out to that. 00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:56.480 There's a lot of energy going out to the relationship, the partner. 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.239 There's a lot of relationship going out to my kid. 00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.519 There's a lot of relationships. 00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:08.639 So this has actually been a really like insightful write down pouring love into myself. 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:23.760 Well, I you should write that down, and I will actually name check my friend Um Byron Calish Green, who I heard him at a conference once say, You do not give from your cup, you give from your overflow. 00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:32.960 Yo, Byron, hi Five. 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:40.800 And like that, everybody was just pin drop silence after that because they were like, oh damn. 00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:41.760 Yeah. 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:42.320 Right. 00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:52.400 And I you need to know how to replenish your cup, but then you need to you need to get it to a point of overflow before you start pouring out again, before you start giving again. 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:53.280 Yeah. 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:55.920 So all right, Maria. 00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:59.280 Um, are you ready for your rapid fire questions? 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:00.320 Sure. 00:37:00.320 -->

00:37:03.519 I did I I didn't know this was gonna happen, but I'm gonna do it. 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.480 Maybe you told me, but I forgot, which is more fun. 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.960 Yeah, it's more impromptu. 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:10.239 Yeah, they're easy questions. 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:11.840 There's no right or wrong answer. 00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.559 Um, what's your favorite book of all time? 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:16.800 That's a good question. 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:28.559 Um, the answer is I don't know, but I will say the most memorable book, memorable book of all time is A Wrinkle in Time by Madeline Langle because I remember that being the book that got me into reading. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:36.079 And I still have my original copy that I bought in elementary school, and it's in my house right now. 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:42.159 And I don't read that one, I read another one because I protect that one so much. 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:43.840 Oh my god, that's so awesome. 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.199 I I love that book too. 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:59.119 I didn't read it till I was an adult, but I I loved it because it was one of the books where I felt like it was the most um it was just the most heartfelt relationship between a brother and sister. 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:00.719 And I'm really close to my brother. 00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:06.320 And I was like, there's so few books that I think talk about siblings at that like level and stuff. 00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:11.280 And I just I loved it for that whole thing and how protective she was of her brother and everything. 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:15.599 So I uh I think a wrinkle in time is an ultimate one of the ultimate classics. 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:16.320 Yeah. 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:16.719 Okay. 00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:18.559 Looking forward to sharing it with Nina. 00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:19.119 Yeah. 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:21.440 What would you ever want to write a book? 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:22.800 And if so, about what? 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:24.960 That's a really good question. 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:35.119 I feel like I could do a silly graphic novel with my silly um stick drawings, like little comics. 00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:40.639 Like, you know, people always say, like, I have a punny way of of approaching something. 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:48.800 And I'm like, and I I I I have I I was doing these these stick drawings for Nina for their lunch every day. 00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:51.760 And actually the other day they said don't do it, mom, anymore. 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:59.760 And so um, but I feel like I could do like little, like a little group of comics about like like that, about life. 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:00.800 That'd be awesome. 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.639 Well, because you're a graphic designer, and I'm sure that that would be really fabulous. 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:10.000 Yeah, and I have a drawing history too, so it could get me back into drawing as well. 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.039 Awesome. 00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:16.159 Um, if you could invite an author to dinner, living or dead, who would it be and why? 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:22.000 Gosh, I feel like there are so many. 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:32.480 And I think I would want to, oh my gosh, I just had like seven people come up into my head. 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:35.760 Um, oh my gosh. 00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:41.679 I think I would want someone who did who does drawing as well as books. 00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:48.079 And um, I really love Wendy McNaughton, and she's more of like an illustrator. 00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:49.280 Do you know who she is? 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:50.320 No, I don't. 00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:51.679 Yeah, check her out. 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:55.760 Um, I mean, she does a lot of illustration for like the New York Times and stuff like that. 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:01.840 But she's had a couple books out, and one of them was, I don't remember the name, something about San Francisco. 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:07.679 And um, it was more like journalistic in nature, but it was so beautiful. 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:13.840 Um, and just her kind of impressions of San Francisco, the library, you know, and all that kind of stuff. 00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:23.039 So I feel like I would love to talk to her and about her path and her journey and her, you know, discipline as well. 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.880 Oh, that's really cool. 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:26.239 Yeah, well, keep that in mind. 00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:32.960 I did meet her once for like five minutes at a book thing here in Portland, and I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna die. 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:36.880 She was so nice. 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.000 She was so nice. 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:39.760 Yeah, I'm looking at some of her stuff. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:43.519 She did a uh graphic version of salt fat acid heat. 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.599 Yeah, this is really cool stuff. 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:46.000 Yeah. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:48.159 Thank you for introducing me to somebody new. 00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:48.639 That's great. 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:49.599 So beautiful. 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:50.159 Yeah. 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:50.880 Yeah. 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:56.320 Um, okay, and last question, which I really just asked to alleviate my own personal guilt. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:59.360 If you had to guess, how many books are in your home? 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:02.239 Oh gosh, I have no idea. 00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.760 You know, I mean, how many? 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:09.599 There a lot of them are right there in the hallway. 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:14.639 And we actually got rid of a lot of books and only keep the ones that we cherish. 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:19.840 Um, 20, 40, 60, 80, maybe 100 over there. 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:26.000 And then Nina probably has like 60 um books. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:28.960 We have 60 books out of the library. 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.880 That includes audiobooks. 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:31.840 Oh, but okay. 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:37.440 Yeah, we probably have about up to 50 physical books out of the library right now. 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:38.079 No joke. 00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:38.719 No joke. 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:41.360 I kind of love that you're such library enthusiasts. 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:42.880 Oh, yeah, it's great. 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:53.679 It's great for us, for me, uh and it's great for Nina as well because it exposes them to, you know, because they like reading like series, like they'll find a graphic novel that they like and they'll read. 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.440 And yeah, library day is like a really exciting day. 00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:01.039 So um, yeah, I think we're in the hundreds there. 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:05.599 A lot of like graphic novels that my husband and I want to keep precious. 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:06.639 Same thing for Nina. 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:14.800 The the book that they um learned to read from, which was Roller Girl, um, which is about um roller derby. 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:18.800 You know, they have their copies, they have two copies of that as well. 00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:20.960 It's just it's their a wrinkle in time. 00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:26.559 So many, many precious books. 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:27.440 That's awesome. 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.400 I love that. 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:29.280 Yeah. 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:30.639 Um, great. 00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:33.599 Well, I have enjoyed our time together. 00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:48.000 I'm glad we got to have such a candid conversation about our bodies and perimenopause and pain and aging and how much the media programs us or deprograms us to believe these myths. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:55.360 Uh, I really enjoyed talking to you about reclaiming body trust and about fourth wing, which I do also highly recommend. 00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.239 Got it. 00:42:56.239 --> 00:43:08.079 And and also just hearing about um just it's just great to like have somebody share so candidly about what they're thinking, which I think many, many people can relate to. 00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:13.440 I think what you talked about is really relatable to most women in this day and age and definitely of our generation. 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.360 And so thank you for that, Maria. 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:16.559 I really appreciate it. 00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:20.719 And thank you for creating a safe space to talk about this stuff. 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:21.760 So I appreciate it. 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:22.719 And I really learned a lot. 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:24.239 Oh, great. 00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:25.760 Thank you. 00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:35.440 Um and I think we then we I think we'll see people, hear people, or he people will hear us or me next time. 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:38.960 That's right.