สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
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All right, jumping into part three of our cold card Q&A and what we can learn from this,
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a little bit of white hat and black hat thinking and red teaming and best practices moving forward
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to recognize what we should learn from this and how to prevent something like this in the future.
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All right, jumping into it, Rarson. That's the craziest thing about this. It is not a hardware
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failure. It's a failure of the firmware itself dating all the way back to five to six years ago.
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So there's no mitigation for all of those keys generated during that time, even if the firmware
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gets patched and the device is updated. I got to say, I think CoinKite is cooked. I would be
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shocked if they come back from this. I know NVK rubbed a lot of people the wrong way,
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but this is a blow to the Bitcoin space. But luckily we can learn from this and Bitcoin will
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be even stronger. I don't see how, I don't know what's going on with NVK and his relationship to
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CoinKite, but I would doubt CoinKite survives with NVK at the head. I think if CoinKite wants to
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survive, they probably need to drop NVK and the CTO. Whether it's malicious or incompetence,
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is they could potentially survive as a company, but that's a high bar.
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trying to come back from this
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because this is the worst possible failure
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that a hardware wallet manufacturer could make.
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This is as bad as it gets.
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And it is absolutely a blow to the Bitcoin space.
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But I do think anti-fragility
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in a network and in a system like Bitcoin
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is not about bad things never happening
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or always surviving
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and never having terrible things
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or major stressors, it means quite the opposite, that every time a major stressor or a terrible
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thing happens, things adjust. And I have seen a lot of adjustment and a lot of response that
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makes me very hopeful. And I do think that we come out of this a lot stronger with a lot better
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practices and a lot more learned. And I only have my own life to go by. Every close call and every
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disaster and every scar only made my systems better, only made me more knowledgeable.
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only made it more clear what I needed to tell and share people over the years.
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So in the end, I think Bitcoin comes out of this fine, obviously.
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Baltimore Ace.
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Do you think the company will compensate anyone for any of this?
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Now that it seems like all of their hardware wallets are not secure,
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I wonder if they will offer any refunds or anything like that.
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Thanks for the update, Guy.
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Welcome for the update.
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No, I doubt they have the funds.
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and I don't even know how the process would be.
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You would need an entire business and structure and support line and everything.
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You would have to devote the entire business to years and years and years worth of work
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of just handing out money to people and trying to figure out how to KYC
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and know that they were actually the customer and they did actually have this Bitcoin
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And you'd probably get scammed with some portion of it, no matter how hard you worked and how difficult of a process you went through to try to make it right. So I don't even see it as meaningfully possible in a realistic sense. But even if it was, I'm not inclined to think they would do it anyway.
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I see them going dark
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you know
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they haven't posted very much
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NVK has said nothing
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he's disappeared
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they are not coming out
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in front of this thing
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they seem to be
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trying to lick their wounds
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and wait for people to forget
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I think
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never sleepy
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never ever trust an electronic device
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to create seed entropy for you
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NVK hated seed signer
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was this because it was superior?
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that's not a bad rule um you know one of the lessons that are pulled from this i think is kind
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of you know roll your own randomness to understand what entropy is and for the people who are like oh
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normal users should never have to worry about that and think about that that is true in some sense
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like from a broad perspective and when we're talking about the normie audience the idea that
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Load full transcript
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they're going to have to like get a pair of dice and roll their own seed phrase or their own public
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or a private key is a little bit ridiculous.
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Like we want a better UX for self custody
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for the majority of people.
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But for the people who were doing cold cards that was not that audience right These were the people who did understand it These are the people who been doing this for five six seven years and knew how to hold their own keys back up your seed phrase understand how to use your signing device
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understand how to back up your wallet, et cetera, et cetera.
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All the other things that you have to learn, if you just have to add to that, that understand
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how entropy works and add a little bit of your own.
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For the people that we're talking about specifically, that's actually not that big of a deal.
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I love the SeedSigner.
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It's a cool device.
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I'm happy to recommend it
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and it would prevent people
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from doing what happened to the cold card
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and not know it.
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Pran 10,000 says
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the most shilled hardware wallet in Bitcoin
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just had its seed phrases guessed by LLMs.
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The future of money now requires
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a hundred dice rolling just to create a wallet.
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Let's face it,
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mass adoption was a psyop.
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Bitcoin will remain a niche internet currency
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like any other crypto.
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If you think you're getting total reserves,
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global reserve status,
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you might be delusional.
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I think this discounts how unintuitive and how complicated a lot of things that we do all the time really is.
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And the time span on which those things get integrated into society.
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We are heading into a future with AI.
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We are heading into a future where nothing in the digital world is safe.
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We are heading into the future where nobody has any privacy.
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we are heading into the future where everyone is dependent on large corporate and global
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government systems there will be no way that you do not have massive consequences and massive
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fallout from those things i believe the idea of understanding what a key is and how encryption
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works will simply be a necessity for survival in a sense and believe it or not humans are very very
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adaptable. Humans will learn what is necessary to survive. I believe this simply will become
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one of those necessary things. My kids will not grow up having confusion about what encryption is
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and how to handle keys. Now, not everybody will go or walk away from all of this with that level
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of knowledge and they won't have a dad who sits down with them and makes them do homework on it.
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But I do think it will become normalized because otherwise we're headed into a dystopian future where we're all slaves.
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And I don't think that's a way for humanity to survive.
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It's not just bad for freedom.
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It's also bad for evolution.
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It's bad for decentralization.
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It's bad for survival as a species.
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It's just going to hurt a lot along the way.
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And it's going to be a whole bunch of painful ass lessons before we realize that you should be learning these things at two years old.
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so I disagree
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people aren't that stupid
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they are simply stupid if they don't
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need to know anything
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and I think
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this is going to be a need to know one day
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X heart Z
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hey I've been listening to you for years now
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given the recent cold card hack I moved all
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my funds off cold card to river until my
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bit box comes cool
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I partially
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did some of that as well and the tons
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I know tons of people who moved to river
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which if if there was anything to trust to move bitcoin to it would be river um uh which is funny
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because a whole bunch of people say one of the lessons to learn is you should just use a big
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crypto exchanges and bitcoin only is not going to help you or whatever i still think river's the
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one of the only and best solutions for sending your bitcoin to because they do build stuff in
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house they don't use third parties
they built so much of their own stack they are very serious they
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They're very quiet and they just do the job and they are Bitcoin only.
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So to the contrary, I think River is a perfect example of when all of the rules that people
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went to cold card for work out great, even though it worked out like a disaster for cold
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card.
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But anyway, it's a weird transition.
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Do you as of now think Bitbox is a safe choice?
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I see they have dual entropy.
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I'm only concerned about the connection signing.
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It's not air gapped.
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Granted, I never send Bitcoin from my cold storage.
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I've heard you mention them in your pod and I decided to jump the cold card ship I just can't
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trust them anymore perfectly reasonable I just bought a queue this year sadly dude me too um
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so yes I have moved my stuff a lot of my stuff to a bit box I have swapped out some of my stuff to
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the bit box key I've been using bit box for a really long time I am trusting it but I was also
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trust in cold card So don just take oh I am also trusting and I am also putting my funds on it as the definitive statement I have done a lot of my own like just getting Kimmy to do an exploration and obviously doing a check on the entropy
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because this is the most obvious example
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of when things can go disastrous
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and it has found nothing of consequence.
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And I've read a couple of articles
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about like little bugs or edge cases
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that have been discovered by LLMs
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and luckily the Bitbox people are very responsive
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and very accepting of the criticisms,
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which is an attitude that I did not fully respect.
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And now I am very, very thankful for that.
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And it gives me a little bit more confidence about that.
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But all I can basically say is that I am still having Bitbox as a sponsor
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because I trust that they have a better attitude.
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They're much more serious as a fully open source wallet.
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And then I have also trusted to move my funds to Bitbox.
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But none of that is a guarantee.
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So do your own push against it.
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Think about the attack vectors.
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The Nova 2 is going to be much easier.
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Like I can plug it into my actual iPhone and Nunchuck is going to have it so that you can
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do it natively in their mobile wallet.
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But everything is best as a multisig, in my opinion, because multisig is the only thing
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that saved me with the cold card.
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But don't take it as foolproof.
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Make sure you understand the risks
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and the places where you could still be vulnerable.
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But I'm a huge fan
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and always have been a fan of Pitbox.
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Sven Volvo 164,
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maybe Seed Signer is the way.
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Peace.
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Yeah.
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Maybe Seed Signer is the way.
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I'm not like blindly trusting
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any of them anymore.
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I really like the whole two of three.
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it just feels like the clean setup and it can also be this kind of like perfect
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middle ground of convenient and secure so it's hard to say that you know seed signer is open
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source you can build your own elements from it and get your own hardware so you have a lot of
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options for getting your manufacturing stack and your your hardware stack not vulnerable to like
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somebody obviously looking for your email address you're both you're buying a hardware wallet and
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you're just buying a component of a thing off Amazon, right?
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So there's a lot to be said of a DIY hardware wallet
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that doesn't even keep your keys.
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So love the Seatsigner.
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Sven Volvo again, watch Mechanics last update.
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If you run knots, you can slow down the hack.
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Mempool replacement equals zero piece.
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I saw this for a little bit and I kind of went back and forth.
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A lot of people were saying that like,
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this is a ridiculous thing.
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and you're just trying to get people to run BIP 110 by downloading knots and all this stuff.
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And I don't think that's the case at all.
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You're looking for anything that's actually going to help the situation.
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And actually, RBF was a huge thing that could have helped.
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This is exactly why people were using Slipstream.
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My brother had someone who he had set up, a friend who had set up on Coldcard,
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and we told her to use Slipstream
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because she was actually late in the game
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for being able to get out.
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She was like traveling or something
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and then came back,
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but she was able to get her funds off of it.
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We were like, use Slipstream
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because she probably could have gotten hit
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in a very, very short window
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had she just posted to the blockchain.
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But this is the exact same kind of thing, right?
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Is try to get some of the network
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or hide it from part of the network
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so that if any case at all, you could potentially stop the propagation of one of the transactions
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and help the propagation of the legitimate transaction.
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You know, you just want to slow down the thief a little bit.
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Sure, that might not actually do anything, you know, but there's also the possibility
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that like one thief doesn't get through because of a 30 second or a one minute delay that
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pulls in a block and gets it through. I think this was totally in like full honest recommendation of
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like, maybe here's something we can do when everybody feels like they got their thumb up
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their ass and there's nothing to do to stop this or help this situation. McKenna was looking for a
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good option and he took a bad option or recommended a bad option amongst a list of no options,
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You know like bad is better than nothing So I don see anything wrong with this And maybe it could work or maybe it could do something for somebody Unlikely but I don think it was at all malicious or a download BIP or whatever that a bunch of people were saying I think it was an honest recommendation
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and not totally out of the realm
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of the reason people were saying use Slipstream.
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Same concept, just a different,
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less complete way to solve the same problem.
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Rarson again.
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I have a problem with white hats stealing funds.
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Once you've compromised the address,
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there's no way to verify who originally owned the address.
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So how can you know for sure that someone who claims they had owned that address actually owned it?
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I had a problem with this too.
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It feels like an impossible situation because you're like, how can you help somebody?
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How can you help the people who haven't been hit yet, but that are going to get hit?
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How do you help the people that are on vacation?
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And I actually reached out to a number of people privately on Signal and DMs and all this stuff being like, can we set up a white hat group? Can we just start stealing these funds and try to be as open about it as possible and then just keep them until we can figure out some sort of a way to figure out how to get it back to somebody.
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And of all things, it seemed like KYC was the only thing that would actually save us in that scenario because somebody could point to a KYC wallet that says, this is me.
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And then here is my wallet that I have used or from an exchange that they know it's me and I've proved that it's me.
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And this is the address that I sent it to from that wallet.
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This is how you know it's mine.
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Because obviously the keys themselves are not proof of anything.
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Right.
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so it would be very very difficult to find a point of kyc in which you were actually in some
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sequence of addresses or that it was moved to a different thing there's still the possibility that
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that could be faked or uh you could have somebody who actually sent those bitcoin away to somebody
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who had a cold card and then they're trying to claw it back and you know they they're trying to
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double spin they're like oh snap the person i sent it to got their cold card hacked i have a kyc
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transaction because I was the one that bought this. Maybe I can get those Bitcoin. That's a
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different thing from getting scammed from like a random person. It's a little bit slightly lower
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attack surface, but inevitably you have a whole bunch of people who care about privacy and they're
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not going to have that KYC. So what do you do with those coins? You know, burn them like you
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don't want to be like a white hat and be like, oh, oh, I conveniently just have a 40 extra Bitcoin.
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And so and that was basically all the conversations were like, how do you do this? How do you make
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this not a disaster? How do you make this not like a business that you have to run as like a
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for free, you know, a charity that you have to do for years and years? You run into as many
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complications and even legal risks just by trying to help in this situation. And so like,
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basically, we we never pulled the trigger. I just kind of sat there going like,
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what the hell are you going to do? And that I might even steal from somebody who now can't
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prove that they can get it back and who could have actually moved their own funds. You know,
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like I might steal from somebody who wasn't going to get hacked or was going to have time to get it.
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And now I've just contributed to them losing it because I can't prove that that's who owned it,
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you know? So it's just messy. I wish there was an easy solution, but there wasn't.
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All right. That'll wrap up today's episode. Like I said, I'll be doing more videos about it and
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getting more into things.
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But thank you guys for the comments.
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I really appreciate it.
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And don't forget to subscribe,
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to share this out with anybody.
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And keep pinging me,
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keep posting any questions.
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I'll try to do these a lot more
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to answer your questions
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and let you know what I think about it.
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I really do like this format.
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I think this is a great way for us to,
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for me to be able to address
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and answer some of these things
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when I don't really have time
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to go back and post in comments.
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I get something out of it
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and get to hang out with you guys
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and actually feel like I'm chatting.
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So with that, thank you guys so much.
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Don't forget to subscribe.
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Share it out.
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Check out Bitbox.
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I got a discount code if you're trying to get one.
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And use Multisig.
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Back up your wallet descriptor
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in as many places as possible.
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It's not a vulnerable thing for your funds.
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It's just a privacy concern.
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So feel free to email it to yourself if you need to.
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Stay safe.
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Learn everything you can.
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stack sats for all your own randomness and i will catch you on the next episode
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until then that is my two sats