บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Sandor Katz - Fermentation as Metaphor (and discussing the "Critical Yeast Concept")

are high, the movement warrants addressing through you know the political system that we have, right? 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.800 And change happens, and that's how we're conditioned to think that change occurs. 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:21.439 And so John does acknowledge in his paper, like numbers are still important, but in his experience in settings like countries where there's deep division and violence, and uh, when he's actually witnessed social change that is sustainable, he's found that what lies invisible behind the numbers actually counts more. 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:32.560 So he says it's not necessarily the amount of participants that uh authenticates the social shift, it's the quality of the platform that sustains the shifting process that matters, right? 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:37.840 So this is a bit complicated, but the simple principle of yeast is this, right? 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:47.360 So a few strategically connected people have greater potential for creating social growth of an idea or process than a large number of people who think alike. 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:58.719 So that's switching the focus from building a critical mass of people to thinking about who could act in this situation as critical yeast. 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.080 So the small and innocuous agents of social change. 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:07.439 So the tiny additives that when mixed into the mass rise up the whole loaf. 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:14.240 So he says the key is getting a small set of the right people involved in the right places. 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:22.240 So as one of my really good friends that I went to school would say, he says, Sophie, you've got to work smarter, not harder, right? 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:28.000 And that's kind of how this theory settles in my mind as how to proceed. 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:40.800 So the metaphor asks, who, though not like-minded or like situated in the context of this conflict, would have a capacity if mixed and held together to make other things grow exponentially beyond their numbers? 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:50.879 So to illustrate the point, John dives right into bread baking, he breaks it down into a number of steps, which are actually really, really interesting to read about. 00:04:52.000 --> 00:05:06.319 And so he sort of discusses that, like this tiny packet of yeast, when mixed with these larger quantities of flour and water with salt and sugar, transform the ingredients into a loaf of bread as opposed to just a glob of unappealing ingredients. 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:12.720 So when I learned about this concept, I felt a lot lighter. 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.680 I felt like it took a lot of pressure off my shoulders. 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:42.879 So instead of just having to trudge on, like trying to educate the masses and raise awareness forever, I could slow down and focus on my skill set and think, how can I be the critical yeast, building these connections and inoculating people around within my networks, like in my house, in my local community, in my activism network and in the world more broadly. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.480 And I think that that just feels really good to me. 00:05:46.560 --> 00:06:06.480 And I really wanted to chat to Sandor about the critical yeast concept because while John Paul Lederac talks about this in terms of commercial yeast, he didn't really address sort of fermentation more broadly or some of the um, you know, other ways that you can ferment things, for example, using wild yeast. 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:15.920 So I was just interested to ask Sandor, who is like a fermentation expert, um, what he thought about this theory because he's also an activist and he's done a lot of activism work. 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:18.480 And I just yeah, wanted to pick his brain on this theory. 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:27.680 I wanted to share this theory with you, and then I also wanted to just chat generally with Sandor about fermentation, you know, out of my own personal interest. 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:31.920 So I hope this makes sense and I hope that you enjoy this conversation. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:36.720 And if you do, I'd love if you could leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:43.759 And I really love, like, thanks so much to all the people who've reached out and given me personal feedback about how much they love the podcast recently. 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:52.319 That's really helped me get through some um difficult weeks uh I've had recently being sick and parenting three sick children. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:53.680 So thank you so much for that. 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.920 All right, I hope you enjoy this conversation and I'll see you next time. 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:07.600 So, can you tell us a little bit about the book? 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:10.959 What's the take that you're going with for this one? 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:11.920 Sure. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:16.160 So this this book is called Fermentation: A Natural History. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:23.360 You know, whereas most of my other books have been focused on the practical aspects of fermentation. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:42.319 Um, you know, how to ferment, how to make a sourdough starter, how to make bread with your sourdough starter, how to make sauerkraut, how to make kimchi, um, you know, all of these, like, you know, how to ferment food that you're interested in fermenting in your own kitchen. 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:48.160 Um, you know, this one is not a how-to book at all. 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.680 But it I would say it's more of a general interest book. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:08:10.639 Um, and you know, what I would say is that everybody has at least a casual relationship with fermentation, just because pretty much every human being in every part of the world eats and drinks products of fermentation regularly, whether they're thinking about it or interested in the process of fermentation or not.

00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:20.800 Um, and I think that the process of fermentation, even if you're not interested enough to start doing it in your kitchen, it's very illuminating. 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:24.720 Like, you know, the, you know, why is fermentation practiced everywhere? 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:32.559 Because everything we eat, all of the plants and all the animal products that make up our food are populated by microorganisms. 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:50.320 So, you know, thousands of years before anyone specifically knew of the existence of microorganisms or could um categorize them, people learned how to work with them, um uh, you know, just as a practical matter. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.480 That you don't have to know that that it's bacteria driving the process. 00:08:54.639 --> 00:09:08.559 You just have to understand under what conditions do the vegetables um uh develop a beautiful flavor and preserve, versus under what other conditions do they decompose? 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:16.240 Um, so people in every part of the world learned the lessons of fermentation without necessarily knowing what was going on. 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:50.879 Um, and um, and so yeah, you know, I think now with what we understand about microbiology, um, you know, fermentation really illuminates a lot about biodiversity, coexistence with different kinds of organisms, um uh um you know, evolution, um, um, the complexity of evolution and and and co-evolution, different kinds of organisms um uh you know evolving simultaneously. 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.200 Um so you know, that's really what this book is focusing on. 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:01.600 You know, what can fermentation illuminate for us about the natural world? 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:11.919 You know, and it also gets into you know what are the major um, you know, what's the range of fermentation that's practiced around the world? 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:20.799 What you know are you know some of the contours of the cultural variations that are found in fermentation. 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.039 So it's a general interest fermentation book. 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.440 It's pretty, it's pretty small. 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:43.679 Um, it's part of a series of small topical natural history books that in addition to traditional bookselling venues, um, we're hoping that we'll get it into or get the whole series into um natural history museum gift shops. 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:45.039 Um that sounds great. 00:10:45.440 --> 00:11:18.399 And it's been a real, you know, I'm I'm my my my my partner is a biologist, and um we go to a lot of natural history museums in our travels, and um, you know, I have become you know very, very aware that even though you know all multicellular life is believed to be descended from bacteria and other single-celled organisms, you know, the natural history museums in general are not paying a lot of attention to the microbial world. 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:37.840 And so, you know, just

I'm excited to try to get more people thinking about, you know, how does fermentation fit into this history where you know our evolution was driven in the first place by microorganisms that have always been with us. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.279 And the book is called Fermentation in Natural History. 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:49.840 It's it's so cool hearing you talk about, you know, back in the days when they didn't really understand about the role of bacteria in the fermentation process. 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:59.440 It must have seemed really magical that this, because I think just with us understanding more and more about science these days, we lose we can't see things in the same way. 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:01.919 We don't see the the magic in it sometimes. 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:09.600 The fact that it's like this powerful transformative thing that's happening in front of us um that we can't, you know, see with the naked eye. 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.000 So um I can't wait to read the book. 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:13.279 That sounds really great. 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.480 I just finished Fermentation as metaphor and that was fantastic. 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:16.799 Yeah. 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:17.440 Nice. 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:18.399 Well, thank you very much. 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.559 I'm glad you're I'm glad you're enjoying my books. 00:12:20.720 --> 00:13:23.039 Um, you know, I mean, one of the things that's really struck me is that um, you know, in so many different um traditions from you know um you know indigenous uh uh communities that exist around the world to many of the major world religions, um, you know, there there are many ways in which fermentation is or products of fermentation are, you know, recognized and valued as being mysterious, spiritual, divine, um, you know, from the Roman Catholic Mass to, you know, uh, I mean, I met I met this indigenous Amazon guy who told me about um um, you know, his people's tradition of um, you know, fasting and dancing for days around the sacred pineapple during the pineapple harvest. 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:28.960 But what the only thing they're consuming during this period is fermenting pineapple. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:50.639 Um so they're um um you know, it's like a lot of their like their worldview, they're um celebrating the passage of the seasons, the reciprocity they have with uh an important crop for them like the pineapple, but it all it all revolves around fermentation. 00:13:51.039 --> 00:14:06.240 Um so um, you know, I mean, I think fermentation uh in just so many different parts of the world has, you know, since ancient times been been recognized as this sort of mystical um force. 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:07.519 That's right. 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:22.000 And I mean that really leads very well into what we're going to talk to today, because I mean this entire conversation while being about fermentation is really a metaphorical look at fermentation and the trans transformative power of fermentation. 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:28.159 So the the first kind of question that I was going to ask you, I guess it's it's quite simple, really. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.039 Um, but I think it's something we often skip over. 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:42.639 So in the critical yeast concept, what they're doing is they're really imagining that the activist is like the yeast of in the bread making process, right? 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:46.799 So it's the tiniest ingredient, but it has the most powerful transformative power. 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.039 Without the yeast, you don't get the rise. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.159 Like you don't get all these ingredients mixed together without the yeast. 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.639 That would just be like a flat kind of glob. 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:59.120 But you put the yeast in there and you can get this like magical transformation that happens. 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:04.960 And so they're imagining the activist as the yeast, but I guess with your work, we're going to look more broadly. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.360 So we're thinking it's like the starter culture or the microorganism or the mold. 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.440 Um, so it's the thing that's responsible for causing the fermentation. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:18.240 So, with this in mind, I just wanted to ask you if you could give us a brief overview. 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:22.639 So, could you just tell us what is fermentation? 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:25.600 Like, what's actually happening when something ferments? 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:34.399 Well, I mean, I would I I generally define fermentation quite broadly as the transformative action of microorganisms. 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.039 Um, there's different ways to define it. 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.799 If you ask a biologist what is fermentation, you'll get a very different answer. 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:47.440 And for a biologist, fermentation is anaerobic metabolism, the production of energy without oxygen. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:56.720 The cells of our bodies are capable of fermentation, even though they primarily function under respiration using uh oxygen. 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:20.480 Um, but if we exert ourselves in ways that demand that muscles or cells in particular muscles produce more energy than they have oxygen for, they revert to this less efficient mode of energy production, fermentation, that's less efficient because it creates a byproduct, lactic acid, just like in sauerkraut or in yogurt. 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:52.480 Um and um uh so I mean, not only microorganisms can perform fermentation, but in a food and beverage context, we regard it as the transformative action of microorganisms, but there's a caveat with that also, because you know, most food waste, most of the food that we would call, you know, rotten or spoiled or um decomposed, that those processes also involve the transformative action of microorganisms. 00:16:52.639 --> 00:17:08.480

And you know, nobody is like finding the bag of decomposed parsley that was hidden in their vegetable drawer in the refrigerator and pulling out this sort of disgusting liquefied parsley and saying, like, look, the parsley fermented. 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.720 Um, I wonder how it will be. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:25.279 Generally, we reserve fermentation to describe um, you know, intentional or desirable microbial transformations rather than um, you know, just the like the random ones. 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:32.480 Um, now, I mean, the other really important thing that I talk about quite a bit is not everybody agrees on what's desirable. 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:45.200 And so, you know, a lot of a lot of fermented foods can be um, you know, a little bit um um, you know, divisive or controversial because not everybody loves every flavor of fermentation. 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:50.240 And to some degree it's cultural, you know, what are you raised around? 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.000 Um, what are you used to? 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.960 What have you been watching your parents and grandparents eat? 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:56.640 What have you been smelling? 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:01.759 Um, you know, what metabolites did you get as a fetus through your mother? 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.559 Um, but then, you know, to a certain degree it can be individual. 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:15.039 And we all know people who are like just very picky eaters and like, you know, don't like certain kinds of textures or flavors or or or whatever. 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.200 But you know, not everybody can agree on what's what's desirable. 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.200 Um but fermentation is the transformative action of microorganisms. 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:39.920 Generally, the microorganisms um, you know, um you know, via enzymes that they produce are breaking down macronutrients in the food um into simpler, more elemental forms. 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:58.240 Um, you know, often making the nutrients more easily bioavailable, um, you know, sometimes, you know, creating new metabolites uh that in certain cases can have, you know, some some um you know therapeutic benefits for us. 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:13.839 Um, you know, sometimes making nutrients that would otherwise be unavailable to us, available, um, you know, for instance, like grains and beans have minerals, but they're tied up in these chemical bonds that our bodies can't break down. 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:24.400 But uh but an external fermentation before we eat it generally can break it down, and so we'll get more minerals out of those foods if they've been fermented first. 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:45.440 And then, of course, we're learning more and more about how important the bacteria themselves can be in terms of um uh enhancing biodiversity in the gut to enable us to digest better, um, sometimes improve our immune function. 00:19:45.680 --> 00:20:06.160 There's a whole new line of research looking at how

um serotonin and other chemical compounds in our brains that determine how we think and feel are actually regulated by bacteria in the intestines and that sort of enhancing biodiversity in the gut can potentially um uh impact our mental health. 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:25.599 So, I mean, a lot of different aspects of our health can can potentially be impacted by fermented foods, but really what's happening in the process is microorganisms are breaking down macronutrients into um, you know, uh, you know, simpler, more elemental, and different forms. 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:27.839 Yeah, so interesting. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:38.559 As you're talking, my mind is just instantly spiraling to how you can really draw so much um out of that question when you think of it from a metaphorical perspective. 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:44.000 Um, let me just say one thing about fermentation as a metaphor. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:44.480 Uh-huh. 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.119 Um, and I know I wrote a whole book with that name. 00:20:47.279 --> 00:21:03.039 Actually, since I wrote that book, I learned something new, which is that the first documented usage that we have of the word fermentation in the English language was not literal food or beverage meaning. 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.200 It was a metaphorical meaning. 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:18.160 And the first documented usage of fermentation in the English language was actually by um uh uh Chaucer in The Canterbury Tales in the 14th century. 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:23.359 And um it was one of the tales was about an alchemist. 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.319 And um and it was the like assistant to the alchemist telling the story. 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:51.440 Um, but you know, he um I mean, first of all, he talks about like, you know, his boss um um uh lying to people and and and you betraying their trust and misleading them a lot because you know that was one of the reputations of of alchemists. 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:59.759 Um uh but the ferment, but but he sort of talks about having to assemble all these different uh kind of SOT. 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:06.720 Ingredients, and then mixing them together for the fermentation. 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:19.599 And so the fermentation was the transformation of all of these disparate elements into gold, into an elixir that could heal people. 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:21.759 But it was all metaphorical. 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:33.680 You know, it was, it was, it was not like literal, like we're thinking about it in terms of bread or alcohol or other kinds of food and beverage fermentations. 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:48.960 It was the word was used metaphorically before it came to be applied to these foods that involve these um, you know, dramatic and until 150 years ago quite mysterious transformations. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:50.799 Wow, that's so interesting. 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.160 It's we've sort of come like full circle, I guess, coming back to it. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:55.759 Yeah, that's wild. 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:16.960 Um, and and so in John Paul Lederac's uh article, he he really kind of, I guess, you know, he keeps it quite straightforward in that when he's doing his his metaphor, he's just talking about, you know, a packet of commercial yeast as his analogy for how um the process of fermentation will work. 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:22.400 And he stepped through that process, which is interesting, and we'll kind of dive into that a little bit later. 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:36.480 But what I was interested in when I read that article is I just thought there's so much power in this metaphor, you know, but it could be expanded to by thinking about all of these other ways that you can ferment things, right? 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.279 Other than just straight commercial yeast with bread. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:51.519 Well, and also we could talk about sourdough because you know, people have been making bread for 10,000 years and sour and and and and like a packet of yeast only began to be um available in the 20th century. 00:23:51.759 --> 00:24:18.000 Um so for the first like 9,900 years of people on planet Earth making bread-like things, they were relying on spontaneous fermentation based on the organisms that are found on wheat and rye and amaranth and millet and all the other kinds of grains, which always involve yeast, but never only yeast. 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:40.079 So it's always so you know, it it involves more biodiversity, and just as an aside, that's part of what makes sourdough bread so superior to pure yeasted bread, is like not only do you have more flavor complexity, the bread lot lasts longer because of the acidity of it. 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:55.920 Um, you know, like every everything about it is is is superior, except that it takes longer and it takes a little bit more know-how to understand how to uh uh uh how to use it. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.160 But I would say that the the metaphors are really the same. 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:05.920 I mean, you know, the yeast is always present on the grains and and in any flour. 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:11.839 I mean, the way you start a sourdough is you just mix some flour with some water. 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:22.240 Um, and then you know, as it becomes active, you just keep on feeding it, but you're not just feeding it more, you're also taking some away. 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:39.680 So every time you feed it, you are diluting it, you're diluting the acidity, and that enables the yeast to really um uh uh uh flourish, but it's flourishing alongside um lactic acid bacteria and various other bacteria. 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:45.680 So you just have a more you know biodiverse um uh uh uh system. 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:53.359 And you know, I mean, singular microorganisms are very much a human technological contrivance. 00:25:53.519 --> 00:26:11.920 I mean, certainly a contrivance that is very convenient and um you know makes it possible for you know people

interested in experimenting with you know ferments that might be very specific to locales to be able to do them because you can buy these different pure culture starters. 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:23.680 Um so I mean it's it's it's extremely convenient, but it's a real departure from the long history of fermentation, which always involves biodiversity. 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:33.440 In the natural world, there are microorganisms everywhere, but you'll never, except under very controlled conditions in a laboratory, find singular microorganisms. 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:41.920 They're always in these sort of like, you know, kind of unruly um um, you know, uh uh communities. 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:49.039 And and every every organism creates substances that can inhibit other kinds of organisms. 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.359 So um, you know, I mean, we could approach it with like a war metaphor. 00:26:53.519 --> 00:27:03.680 They're you know, they're fighting each other for dominance, but you know, they always end up finding a mutual coexistence that might involve like respecting the space of the other. 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:06.000 That's interesting, isn't it? 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:13.119 Like there, so there is a natural inclination of these microorganisms to find a way to work together. 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:20.079 You know, you don't find that microorganisms kind of inhibiting and killing each other necess uh necessarily. 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:26.079 I mean, it does happen in the fermentation process, but the natural inclination is to find communities that they work well together with. 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:27.920 Well, which is a lot like people. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:29.440 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:50.960 I I was interested to um ask you just to like reel off, just out of interest, um, because you know, we we've talked about sourdough, and I know you talk a lot about sauerkraut, um, which is some very well-known fermentation sort of techniques, but I'd love to hear just like what are some of the wild and woolly fermentations that that you come across? 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:52.480 Like, what are you what's in your kitchen? 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.759 Perhaps that's not not like a standard thing right now. 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:11.039 Well, um, you know, last night I I made this um Thai fermented ribs, so like pork ribs, um uh that I I learned from a Thai American student. 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:16.480 And it's it's basically I mean it's so so simple, so incredibly delicious. 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:19.200 I actually brought it over to my friend's house. 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.200 People went wild for it. 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:25.359 Um, you know, people always say things like, I didn't know you could ferment meat. 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:29.519 Um and then I'm like, oh, you've eaten a lot of fermented meat in your life. 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:35.519 Because you know, people don't understand that salam, when you eat salami, you're

eating raw fermented pork. 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:45.920 Um, and um uh so you know, I mean, most, you know, most people um, you know, at least a little bit are are are are eating fermented meat. 00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:20.480 But anyway, this Thai style of doing it, um you know, I mean I could get into the concepts of fermenting meat, but you know, the big thing is that what what enables um you know fermented milk, uh fermented vegetables, um, you know, fermented grains, what what enables them to be preserved so well is lactic acid or sometimes acetic acid or sometimes alcohol, but mostly lactic acid. 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:30.000 But all of those are metabolized from carbohydrates, all plant foods have abundant carbohydrates. 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:42.000 Meat and fish have lots of protein, some of them have lots of fat, but most of them have exceedingly small amounts of carbohydrates. 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:51.279 So if you want to preserve meat or fish through fermentation, generally you introduce carbohydrates. 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:58.799 So this Thai um uh uh it's called NEM, I'm pronouncing it wrong, N-A-E-M. 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:17.279 Um, but basically you take cooked rice, raw garlic, you crush raw garlic with salt, mix it with cooked rice that's cooled, and then you just coat the ribs with this sort of rice paste. 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.920 Um, and then I usually give it five days at room temperature. 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.759 I mean, it is high summer here. 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:28.559 It's been, you know, the days have all been, you know, over 30 degrees. 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:42.240 Um, and um, you know, you just leave it at, I mean, I do it in a ziploc bag, I massage it a little bit every day, try to move the paste around, make sure it gets onto any uncovered edges. 00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.640 Um, but it's just so good. 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:50.160 I mean, it develops this acidity, it develops this very um specific flavor. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:55.839 So that's that's something that I made recently that I enjoyed uh uh uh last night. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:01.920 Uh I've been enjoying some stuffed cucumber um uh kimchi. 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:10.400 Um uh I've made a couple of miso, a couple of um very non-traditional misos over this summer. 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:17.599 I actually just yesterday started harvesting um chestnuts that grow outside of my house. 00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:27.599 And I learned a couple of years ago from um uh a guy in Italy the traditional northern Italian way of processing chestnuts is you just put them underwater. 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.000 They ferment for like five days. 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.880 Um and then you then you can dry them and preserve them. 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:39.680 Um but um you know I'm I'm fermenting my chestnuts. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:44.799 I will, in a couple of weeks, be making, I'll be growing some koji on chestnuts. 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:58.799 Koji is a

Japanese word um that describes generally a grain or a bean um grown with a particular fungus, Aspergillus orise. 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:10.559 Nobody eats koji, although you could and it's very delicious, but koji is that the koji develops this incredible diversity of enzymes. 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:28.720 And so to make sake, you need koji, to make miso, you need koji, to make soy sauce, you need koji, to make mirin or amazake, um, or you know, many other um Japanese delicacies you use koji. 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:34.480 And you know, koji is analogous to what in Chinese is called chu. 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.799 Um in uh parts of India it's called marcha. 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:51.119 Um in Korea, uh it's it's it's called um um oh my god, I'm I'm uh I'm uh uh nuruk uh for making alcohol. 00:32:51.599 --> 00:33:04.319 But anyway, I mean all across Asia people are using these kinds of uh uh uh fungi in their fermentation processes for the diversity of enzymes that are that are found on them. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:15.839 So I'll be making some chestnut miso, um, which is kind of untraditional um but really delicious um um in a in a few weeks when the when the weather cools off. 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.200 Um but I'm but I I made some really non-traditional misos. 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:22.240 I made chicken foot miso a couple of weeks ago. 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:30.720 Oh so I basically like my my friend who raises chickens saves the feet for me when he's when he's slaughtering the chickens. 00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:36.319 And um I I I simmer them for hours and make stock out of them. 00:33:36.559 --> 00:34:02.000 But then I take some of them after I after I've cooked, rendered them into stock, and put them through a meat grinder, grind them up, bones and all, cartilage, um um uh everything, mix it with koji and salt, and then it ferments into this just satiny, smooth, um beautiful, delicious uh uh miso. 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:08.960 Just from all that collagen in the chicken feet, it gets this really gorgeous uh uh uh texture. 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:21.199 That's you know, basically all of the major fermented foods, you can take the process that's been traditionally applied in a specific way and apply it to other kinds of ingredients. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.280 Um so, you know, that's what um you know, that's that's what I'm doing these days with uh with me. 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:33.519 So also the big the big batch of kraut that I make every year isn't with cabbage, it's with daikons. 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.679 Um just because I have pretty much unlimited access to daikons. 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:51.679 So I have a hundred-liter vessel, I go visit my friend's farm who plants daikons as a cover crop on acres of land, and I can fill up a truck with daikon and it doesn't even he doesn't even notice really. 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:58.159 Um and uh and then does the diecon, does the diecon um ferment more quickly? 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:02.159 Like, does it is it a quicker fermentation than cabbage to to trans? 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:12.880 It's a similar I I have a lot of dachon radish as well because I did plant, I thought it was a bee and butterfly mix in my garden, but it must have actually been the cover crop that I just got confused with. 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.280 And so I just have diacon radishes everywhere. 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:23.199 And I did make um I used some Diacon radish in in a sauerkraut kind of blend that I did a year ago. 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:31.599 And actually, everybody in my family is as sick and they've been sick all week, and I knew this interview was coming, and I was like, I just cannot, I cannot get sick for this interview. 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:42.000 So I've been drinking the I just saved the the juice that was left from that sauerkraut, and it was this like purple color, and it had such a nice kind of umami like flavor. 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:47.920 I think it was from the Diacon that it might have got that, and I honestly think it's really helped me not get sick. 00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:53.840 Um, it's like I love drinking the the the the the leftover brine. 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:56.960 I love I love to drink it just like a little bit. 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.599 I I mean I always makes me feel really like vibrant and and healthy. 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:08.960 I mean, throughout Eastern Europe, sauerkraut juice and pickle juice are understood to be a hangover remedy. 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:17.519 Um but but it's you know, I mean, it it's just like it's full of nutrients, it's full of flavor, it's full of probiotics. 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:25.119 Um and um I think it's a smart strategy for um uh for for for for staying healthy. 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.159 And when I have a lot of it, I I reduce it in different ways. 00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:38.079 Uh so this is crystal salts, these are brine salts that I make from um uh uh um yeah, radish kraut brine salts. 00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:42.159 So, you know, it's just like crystal crystal salts. 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:43.280 That's so cool. 00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:46.239 And do you do that in in a dehydrator or is that an oven? 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:48.800 Yeah, yeah, no, I do it in a dehydrator. 00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:53.199 So a relatively low temperature, I usually go around 40 degrees. 00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:54.159 Yeah. 00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:55.280 Oh, so cool. 00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:26.639 I just love, I really love how I mean, I have only just recently started experimenting with fermentation in the last few years, so I've only sort of done a few different things, but I love the um just the flavor and the interest that it can add to just really ordinary dishes, you know, the little jars of things that you can bring out for your meal when you weren't very prepared and you just have maybe like a singular item and you think, oh, I can just bring out, you know, these little concoctions

that I've made, and it it turns it into this really exciting feast before you, you know, with very little effort. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.679 So um, and often it's using up stuff that just needs to be used up or it would end up, you know, in the compost. 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:34.960 So it's such a no, I'm I'm I'm so with you, you know. 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:38.960 Sometimes people, sometimes people are like, oh, my life is just too busy. 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:40.800 I don't have time to do things like that. 00:37:41.039 --> 00:38:06.400 And I mean, what I try to tell them is like, well, actually, if you took, you know, a half an hour on the weekend and like chopped up a cabbage and salted it and stuffed it into a jar, then all week, you know, you could just turn those like really quick meals into something much more nutritive and satisfying by, you know, sort of, you know, okay, if you're gonna make a grilled cheese sandwich, you know, put some sauerkraut on it. 00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:14.719 Um, or or you know, whatever, whatever your idea of a quick meal would be, just enhance it with some kraut. 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:17.360 You already have your side salad made. 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:19.360 That's so yeah, that's so true. 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:29.760 My husband's American and he really likes to make grilled sandwiches with sauerkraut in it because it really adds, I think it just adds this like a moistness or something to the yeah. 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:36.239 No, and I I mean I I think like at its core, you know, fermented vegetables are condiments. 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:49.519 Um, and you know, the way you know people might put you know, roasted peppers or tomato slices or uh similar things on a sandwich just for moistness and more flavor. 00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:51.760 Sour crit really does the same thing. 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:52.320 Yeah. 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.480 Oh, so it's so delicious. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.880 But okay, we're veer we're veering away from critical yeast concept. 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.199 We're going off the brief. 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:01.519 Sorry. 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:03.199 I sent you such an insane brief. 00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:06.639 I was like, you must think I'm such a boring person when I sent you this. 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.239 But anyway, I'll get back to it. 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:18.400 So, I mean, we've kind of touched on the difference between commercial yeast and wild yeast, which was one of my questions, and we've talked about the range of expressions of culinary fermentation, which I did want to touch on. 00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:25.280 So I wanted to do and we've only like and we've only like skimmed through, you know, scratch scratch the surface. 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:41.199 Like there's so many different kinds, you know, I would I would venture to say that like most of the fermentations of the world are extremely localized and not really known outside of the of the places

where where they're made. 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:51.360 There's just a lot of extremely um, you know, kind of localized phenomena, styles of cheese, um uh styles of bread. 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:59.920 And um, you know, what we're getting in our American and Australian supermarkets is sort of like a homogenized version of it all. 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:10.960 But, you know, in many, you know, in many locations around the world, there are just these very, very specific local traditions that people are maintaining. 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:22.480 Which like flag that comment for later because we're coming back to that because so local, so incredibly local that other people don't know about it, which I think is something we need to just think about. 00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:24.559 I mean, fruit too. 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:28.079 I mean, right this week I we we I found my first pawpaw. 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:37.440 I know in Australia you call a papaya a pawpaw, but the largest fruit indigenous to North America that nobody knows about is called a pawpaw. 00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:42.559 And it doesn't exist on the commercial market, there's nowhere to buy it in a supermarket. 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:47.519 You have to like know where pawpaw trees are to enjoy pawpaws. 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:55.760 Um, but there's a lot of fruits like that in the world that like don't have a commercial market and people just eat them where they grow. 00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:57.360 Yeah, that's right. 00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:15.920 And and so in the paper that I read, John Paul Lederac goes through the bread making process and draws an analogy from basically like each step of the bread making process to educate us on how to be the critical yeast of social change. 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:25.519 And so, for just as a brief example, he talks about how there's there's sort of elements that we can draw upon to how to be in the world. 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:32.800 And so I guess one of them he says that you know the yeast is existing and must be activated separately. 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:34.880 We must create a little environment. 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:47.119 This is, for example, when you're activating your yeast, where you put the yeast in warm water, perhaps it's in like a dark space, maybe you add a dash of sugar and you you create conditions for this yeast to become activated. 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:55.039 Because if you don't create these conditions conditions to activate the yeast, the yeast will just die and it won't be able to influence the bread making process. 00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:04.400 And then the yeast is mixed with the uh other ingredients and allowed to rest and to rise. 00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:08.079 Um, and there's sort of a vigorous like mixing process. 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:13.760 So he he like steps through this, um, and it's quite interesting to read and draw analogies from. 00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:21.920 But I was wondering, I mean, I had asked you about sourdough, but I'm we've kind of talked about sourdough, and I was wondering like, was there another ferment that you could step through the process? 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:31.679 Just we don't have to like directly analyze it, but just to hear that step-by-step process of of a different kind of ferment and how that that looks like for you. 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:33.440 Yeah, sure. 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:36.320 I mean, so you were asking about koji before. 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:44.639 So, you know, basically to make koji, you would um, you know, let's say we're making it with rice. 00:42:44.880 --> 00:43:03.519 You would soak the rice, you would steam the rice generally above water rather than in water, because you don't want it to have too high of a water content, cool it down to below body temperature, and then you would sprinkle your little koji, your your starter, analogous to the packet of yeast. 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:13.199 And um, you know, koji is a little bit tricky to make to make because it requires like a pretty warm environment. 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:24.079 It requires basically an environment between, it needs to stay between 28 and 32 degrees for about uh about 48 hours. 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:37.119 Um, and it needs um it needs humidity, but it can't be too wet, and it needs air, but you can't just like have a fan blowing on it all the time, or it will dry it out too much. 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:42.880 So it needs this very specific environment in order to grow. 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:54.159 And if you leave it in a space that's you know 24 degrees, chances are something else would start to grow before the koji really took off. 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.760 So, you know, generally people are like rigging up something to try to like maintain. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:08.960 This warm temperature, you know, with a little bit of humidity and a little bit of air circulation. 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:19.840 And, you know, it doesn't matter how much Koji starter you were to add at the beginning, if you're not creating the right conditions, it's not going to grow. 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:25.599 If you once you figure out how to create the right conditions, it's irrepressible. 00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:28.159 Like you can't you can't stop it from growing. 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:49.760 Now, what I was thinking about when I was reading your your brief and reading about the critical yeast concept is sort of like, you know, rather than the steps in the baking, the steps in preparing the dough and what you have to do, I was just thinking of environmental conditions. 00:44:49.840 --> 00:45:04.480 And I think a lot of times my, you know, I mean, I've I've done lots of activist work uh uh uh uh through my life, a little bit, you know, less so in recent times than than than than earlier in my life. 00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:27.840 But you know, a lot of the activist work that I've that I've done, it almost felt like just like witnessing, just like, you

know, just you know standing on a corner with a sign about climate change or about a war or something, and feeling like, wow, most of these people don't even don't even care about this. 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:47.679 But it but still feeling like it's important to be a witness, even if like even if there's not enough of you to sort of like change the course of things, like still you you need to be out there, yeah, you know, sort of saying what you need to say and letting other people know that there are people who feel this way. 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:56.800 But you know, I think it like to make an analogy to fermentation or or or or or bread making, it's just all about having the right conditions. 00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:12.079 Like if you mix up your dough and you leave it in like a cold kitchen that's staying 21 degrees all day, um you know, it's you're not likely to get a significant rise in in your bread. 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:21.199 You know, for the yeast to propagate rapidly in order to rise up the bread, like it just takes a pretty warm environment. 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:43.760 And so, you know, I think that's sometimes like I think of activism as like, you know, you do it because you care, because there are awful things happening in the world, because you know, we have to, you know, to change things, but there's not always conditions aren't always right. 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:55.119 But when the conditions are right, and I think this just speaks to what you're saying, like we so by witnessing and by holding up that sign, it's like you're tipping that koji kin on the rice, right? 00:46:55.199 --> 00:47:11.920 And you may not have the right conditions that it's going to actually grow, but you keep trying anyway, because the conditions will be right, the seasons will change, and oh my god, it's the right temperature, and then you have this like unstoppable growth of Koji. 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.320 Yeah, that's what I thought about when you said that. 00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:15.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:16.159 Yeah, totally. 00:47:16.639 --> 00:48:09.760 I mean, I think that the critical yeast concept makes sense as a as an activism analogy, but I guess you know, I think of it a little bit more in like, you know, some sort of like materialistic terms that like we have no control over the larger social conditions, so we just have to like speak our truth and try to draw attention to the injustices, and um, you know, at some point, and that doesn't mean in my lifetime, in your lifetime, but like at some point conditions will be, you know, conditions will be ripe, and um there will be greater um, you know, receptivity to, you know, um, you know, the perspectives, the ideas, the um the values. 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:11.039 Yeah. 00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:12.880 I I was pretty interested. 00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:19.199 I kind of laughed actually when I wrote this question because I thought it was such an existential question. 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:25.679 Um, and I was reading it to my husband, and I was like, it's akin to asking somebody like, what's the origin of all of life? 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.320 I but I was interested to hear your your thoughts on it. 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:44.880 Because um I asked, when when you think of all of the varieties of ferments that you've made um and you've witnessed being made, um so I I wanted to ask you about some of the commonalities in terms of like optimal conditions that allow a starter culture mold microorganism to to do certain things. 00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:54.079 And and one of those was like, what allows that uh starter culture mold microorganism or yeast to exist in the first place? 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.800 I mean, that's just asking like where where do we come from, right? 00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:57.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:08.559 I mean, you know, there's no, yeah, I mean, there there's there there's really no clear scientific consensus about the origins of of life. 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:21.840 I mean, um uh, you know, like one concept they write about in the literature a lot that I hear about all the time from my partner who studies evolution is chemical evolution. 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:50.960 So before evolution, as we would think about it, and biological evolution, it's assumed that it that was preceded by a period of chemical evolution where the elements um you know reacted and combined in increasingly complex ways, um, you know, resulting in the biochemical basis of life. 00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:58.400 So, you know, um you know all living things involve proteins and amino acids, those are chemical structures. 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:08.239 So the chemical structures had to develop before they could be combined into these like self-replicating um, you know, life forms. 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:20.320 Um, but then you know, half of the scientists think it just came from outer space, whether it was like an asteroid crashing into the earth or or something else, which means that nobody really knows. 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:25.920 I mean, it's just like entirely um um uh uh speculative. 00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:58.239 Um, you know, the there's been a broad consensus, like really over the last few decades, coming around the idea that multicellular life developed out of single cell organisms, and the idea that like, you know, one organism engulfed another as if to eat it, but the other was able to maintain itself within, and that became institutionalized as a nucleus of a cell, and that is what you know. 00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:16.000 I mean, what what animals and plants and fungi are all composed of eukaryotic cells that are cells with a nucleus, whereas, you know, the simplest cells, bacteria, uh archaea, are um don't have a nucleus. 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:33.039 Um, and so you know, there's this sort of um um idea that the multicell that the eukaryotic cells upon which we and other

multicellular forms of life are based evolved from the single cell uh uh organisms. 00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:40.159 And you know, the person who first proposed that was seen as a crazy person, and now that's really the broad consensus. 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.599 Um so uh but you know, but but but we don't really know. 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:49.440 That's uh such a good answer for such a big question. 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:57.599 I I I did want to ask where so like you know the the koji that you make, the the uh inoculant, the koji kin, did you call it? 00:51:57.760 --> 00:51:58.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:58.320 --> 00:51:59.440 Where does that come from? 00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:02.159 How like where's the origin of well Japan? 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:02.719 Japan. 00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:06.559 Um, you know, Japan embraced microbiology very, very early. 00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:28.719 Like, you know, pretty much like as soon as like Pasteur was um um you know publishing his findings, Japan got interested, uh, you know, the Japanese um um um you know imperial court got interested in microbiology and um um and they were really studying it and applying it to their fermentation. 00:52:28.960 --> 00:53:03.039 So um, you know, there's a there's an industry in Japan of producing the spores for um for making koji and um you know outside of Japan, in like in Korea, um like the starter for making their um uh soy sauces and pastes are generally made using wild fermentation, just like they make a block of cooked soybeans and they dry it out by turning it on um on rice straw. 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:16.400 The general thinking is that the fungus comes from the rice straw onto it, and then they it grows but with biodiversity, different, you get different color molds uh uh developing. 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:22.400 Um in China it's mostly done with spontaneous wild fermentation. 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:29.280 Uh, when I saw it done in the north of India, it was done with spontaneous uh uh wild fermentation. 00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:47.119 So um, you know, the the predictable scientific way of doing it is you you buy some spores of selected strains, but the more like ancient traditional way of doing it is you know, relying on some sort of botanical elements. 00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:55.360 The le in Taiwan, I saw people doing it with the leaves of a tree that in English is called Chinese chaste tree. 00:53:55.840 --> 00:54:04.159 Um, and um uh and then and then I met a woman who just used the same basket over and over again. 00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:12.000 So, you know, if you use the same implement, um, you can just get the spores developing on that. 00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:26.079 Or I visited um um uh a huge factory in China that wasn't using any uh uh starter cultures, um, but they had a dedicated room that they did not let us into where they grow it. 00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:36.880 And so it can just become it can just become part of a space or on a tool or using some uh botanical elements. 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:48.000 Um so there's a lot of different concepts of starters and and and you know this idea of of like a pure culture yeast, you know, that requires a microscope. 00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:57.360 Um that requires a microscope, a laboratory, um, um isolation protocols, and you know, it's it's a lot of work. 00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:06.800 But um, you know, people have been working with these organisms for um you know for millennia um uh uh in different ways. 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:17.360 And earlier you asked, like, what's the difference between um like commercial yeast we can buy and um and the yeast you would wild yeast you would find in a sourdough. 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:24.239 And I mean commercial yeast comes from wild yeast, um, but it's a particular selected wild yeast. 00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:35.280 If you went to a store that sells beer and winemaking supplies, you could buy a range of different yeasts, and one of the characteristics is what's the tolerance to alcohol? 00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:43.119 If you're just making wine with wild yeast, maybe you get to nine or ten percent alcohol, and that wild yeast can't tolerate that. 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:50.639 So a lot of alcohol making, they're selecting strains that can tolerate higher levels of yeast. 00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:58.159 When you're working with wild yeast, you know, there's there's there's more there's more variability, there's less predictability. 00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:18.960 But what I would say in every realm of fermentation, whether you're talking about, you know, um uh bread or wine or salami or uh or other things, is that the or cheeses, like the best versions of these things are made with spontaneous fermentation. 00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:32.480 Um you know, for large-scale manufacturing, there's the allure of consistency and predictability, and that's why working with pure culture starters has become so so popular. 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:43.679 But for the smaller artists and producers who are willing to deal with a greater degree of variability is the potential for just the most sublime flavors. 00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:50.800 Um, I mean, I would say the best breads are made with um spontaneous wild fermentation. 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:57.360 Um, you know, the best wines are natural wines that are made with spontaneous wild fermentation. 00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:04.719 Um, you know, the best, the best salamis, the best sauerkraut, um, um, you know, the best everything. 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.519 But there's more variability. 00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:08.400 Mm-hmm. 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:09.920 Yeah, that's right. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:17.360 I'm just imagining that, you know, that real complexity of flavor is what is what you get, like that really localized complexity of flavor is what you would get. 00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:26.000 Well, and then to relate it to our metaphor, I mean, I think, I think that um, you know, people are not

like a packet of yeast. 00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:30.719 People are not all carbon copies of of the same cell. 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:32.880 You know, we're all we're all different. 00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:36.800 We all have like, you know, certain physiological similarities. 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:47.039 But then, you know, as anyone who like raises kids learns, like there's no accounting for like how the personalities of different people just emerge in different ways. 00:57:47.199 --> 00:58:00.159 And um, you know, if I mean if we're thinking about the growth of yeast uh as as a metaphor for social change, like we don't get social change by imagining that like everybody's the same. 00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:09.199 You know, we get social change by you know working with you know diverse types and diverse individuals. 00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:29.760 Which perfectly fits into the final question, which is so in the Art of Fermentation, um, you make a comment that the distinctiveness of cultures arise out of the specificity of place, like it's a response to the local needs of the environment and the people together. 00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:36.960 So, for example, a surplus of something that you know, and the hunger and the need to preserve the surplus of something and what while you use are there. 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:40.000 So it's a it's a real manifestation of the local environment. 00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:43.119 And so I was just interested to ask you to conclude. 00:58:43.280 --> 00:59:00.639 So could you comment perhaps on the metaphorical significance of fermentation techniques that develop in response to local resources and needs um in light of how people might consider um their response and creation of um an activism in response to the current state of the world? 00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:01.920 Yeah, sure. 00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:21.119 I mean, you know, I don't think that there can be like a generic um political program or activist agenda that would work everywhere because you know the issues in different places can be very, very different. 00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:38.800 You know, just as like in some places, um, you know, you can you can grow cassava effortlessly, but in other places you could never in a million years grow cassava, but you know, you could grow cabbages that are bigger than my head. 00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:43.519 And in the place where you can grow cassava, you certainly cannot grow a giant head of cabbage. 00:59:43.599 --> 01:00:04.079 And so it's like for everything from like from what you can grow to how you can ferment it, I mean, every everything just depends on you know, on climate, on topography, on, you know, the the specificity of place. 01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:19.679 So, and you know, I think that you know, if we want to think about you know fermentation as a metaphor for social change, like we can't imagine that there's like a singular like loaf of bread that's what everybody everywhere needs. 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:29.280 Um

you know, people in different places have you know different ideas about what would make their lives better, what what they need. 01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:38.800 I mean, you know, if you're you know, uh yeah, so I I mean I think I think the analogy extends uh uh uh uh to this. 01:00:38.880 --> 01:01:01.440 And that's not to say that people in different places can't learn from what people are doing in other places, because clearly they they they can, whether we're talking about food, crops, fermentation, or whether we're talking about um um you know social change and and and and activism. 01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:12.239 But you can never just take what people in one place have been able to do and just apply it in exactly the same way. 01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:23.360 You always will have to like adapt it and figure out like what aspects of it are relevant to your situation and um you know what has to be different. 01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:24.800 That's right. 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:37.840 I mean, there there were a couple of like very generic sort of things that I thought were like applicable across different places, but like how that would actually apply would would really depend on the setting. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:44.159 But for example, like there needs to be an environment of of nourishment, right? 01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:54.159 So often, like, for example, with your source data, like you have to introduce some kind of nourishment, like you have to feed the starter to get it to um to rise, right? 01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:55.760 And to get it to be active. 01:01:56.239 --> 01:02:24.320 And you need to um allow time for for that starter to to rise, like and to double in size, which you know that even the concept of of having time, of slowing down, of allowing the space for something, like even that's just kind of countercultural, like that's has to be actively created by us because we don't we live in a society where no one has time anymore, like we don't have time to do anything, and to create a situation of of warmth, like often, you know. 01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:25.360 Well, I guess it depends. 01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:28.880 I'm not sure whether there's ferments that drive in cold or not, but I guess a lot of the things. 01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:32.559 Well, there's certain things that need that need really cool, like uh earth temperature. 01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:41.920 Like if you want to age cheese, if you want to cure meats, you know, generally you need a lower temperature for that. 01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:55.599 Um and there's some really unique fermentations in far northern climates that you never could, like, you know, in in Alaska, in Siberia, in Arctic parts of Canada. 01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:07.039 Um but you know, if you tried in Australia or in Tennessee to, you know, um to do those things, I mean, it would be disgusting. 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:20.159 Um, you know, they would they would decompose in a like like in a warm environment, but in a cool

enough environment, they're just alternating between freezing and thawing and fermenting and freezing again. 01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:21.039 Mm-hmm. 01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:38.559 And so just to wind up, uh, the last thing I'll just throw at you off the top of my head, just because I'm interested, because you've been very politically kind of active and and you know, you're really obviously very um, you know, conscious of of the importance of social change in the current world that we're in. 01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:51.360 And if you were to look back at yourself as a young person and and sort of like want to distill some advice or some some kind of like something that you've learnt over the years that would be helpful, is there anything that kind of comes to mind for you? 01:03:52.559 --> 01:04:11.760 Well, I mean, you know, I I think that one of the like maybe paradoxes is that, you know, a lot of the sort of you know energy behind activism is a sense of urgency and immediacy. 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:33.039 But I, you know, I think you know, now now that I'm like in my mid-60s, you know, I I I I can I could say like things take time and things are not, you know, you know, like social change is not something that's like you do it, it's done, it's over, you're on the other side of it. 01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:51.360 It's just like an on, it's an ongoing process with ebbs and flows, and um, you know, if like you know, if if you care, if you're devoted to it, you you keep doing it, whether you feel like you're changing the world or not. 01:04:51.599 --> 01:05:23.760 And you know, I think this metaphor provides a very good um um uh like rationale for that, because you know, the conditions just might not be right now, but if you just keep doing it and keep finding allies and keep trying to, you know, sort of articulate your agenda in different ways that may catch people's attention uh uh differently, you know, like event eventually the conditions will uh will arise. 01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:24.719 Hopefully. 01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:35.199 I'll just could I make like one really quick comment, just speaking to that, as something that I I read through this paper like five times because it just really took ages to get it like into my head. 01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:59.760 But something that really jumped out at me when I was reading it last night was that John speaks about that often social movements that are like building a mass um and that are effective kind of in the short, immediate, you know, what you're talking about, like that immediacy, that need to do something right now, like often those movements are are in response to stopping something, right? 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:04.159 So it's stop cutting down the forest. 01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:05.840 Get this person out of office. 01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:06.800 Stop the war. 01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:16.320 And those mass movements are often really effective at stopping the thing, but they're not effective at the third step, which is building the next thing. 01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:16.800 Right. 01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:24.639 And he said that sustainable social change needs to be focused on what gives life, right? 01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:29.679 Which, you know, is what is, it's not focusing on stopping something. 01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:34.159 It's actually thinking about what are we building towards? 01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:40.559 And when you look at it from that perspective, you know, it's it's turning towards life, which I mean is what fermentation really is. 01:06:40.719 --> 01:06:43.119 Like it's just fostering all of these life forms, right? 01:06:43.199 --> 01:06:44.800 In this like microcosm. 01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.719 And so I think just switching that that focus of activism away. 01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:54.239 Well, I mean, obviously the stopping is still necessary, but but also incorporating as a really strong focus. 01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:55.760 Like, what are we building towards? 01:06:55.920 --> 01:07:02.960 And he makes a very strong point that it's not about like this the um isolated starter cultures, right? 01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:06.400 It's not about focusing on like-minded communities. 01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:25.679 He says it's about um who rather than how many, who, though not like-minded or like-situated in this context of conflict, would have the capacity if they were mixed and held together to make other things grow exponentially beyond their numbers. 01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:32.800 So I think that's really important because there can be this hyper focus on building like-minded communities, but it's not about that. 01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:34.000 It's about diversity. 01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:36.880 But I I mean I think that that's so true. 01:07:37.119 --> 01:07:46.880 I mean, it has to all be about like building bridges and like finding commonalities with people who might not appear to be like-minded. 01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:55.280 You know, I mean, I mean, I think that social change requires, you know, like coalitions and working with people who have different priorities than you. 01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:58.960 And um, you know, that's the only way to build a movement. 01:07:59.280 --> 01:07:59.679 That's right. 01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:04.719 Yeah, there's just so there's so much in that paper, and it just took like so many readings to really get that out. 01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:08.480 But thank you so much for for coming, coming on and discussing. 01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:14.559 I know it was like a very specific kind of idea that I came in with, but it was like so great to talk to you about it. 01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:31.840 Well, um, you know, I always enjoyed talking about fermentation, and and you know, I'm very interested in, you know, the sort of um medical metaphorical applications of fermentation as well as the um the the literal food production uh uh aspects of it. 01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:40.000 And um, you know, I think that you know your your your theme that like you know small things can have a large impact. 01:08:40.159 --> 01:08:43.680 Uh I I think that that's um I think that's very true. 01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:48.239 Um so it's been a it's been a pleasure speaking with you and thank you for your interest. 01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:49.039 Thank you. 01:08:49.119 --> 01:08:57.439 Yeah, and so if if people want to to reach out or um do a course or you know buy a book, is there a central location that they should head to to reach? 01:08:57.840 --> 01:08:58.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. 01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:05.039 So I mean the the the title of my first book is wild fermentation, and I put that up. 01:09:05.119 --> 01:09:18.800 I I have a website that's wildfermentation.com and so I put all my I put all my um my my workshops, information about my books, um, other kinds of fermentation resources up there. 01:09:19.039 --> 01:09:23.840 So my website is a great place for people who are on Instagram. 01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:39.520 Um I'm on Instagram as Sandorkraut and um you know I promote my workshops, but then also sometimes when I'm learning new things about fermentation, I like to I like to you know post educational things as well. 01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:40.479 Awesome. 01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:41.760 Well, thank thank you so much. 01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:48.239 And if you ever come back to Australia, please let me know because you're welcome to come and ferment some of my vegetables. 01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:49.680 Okay, well, sweet. 01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:51.119 It's wonderful to talk to.