สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:11.359
Welcome to Beyond the Lost.
00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:19.760
This is a space for parents who have lost a child in any way at any age, where no grief is ranked, explained, or excluded.
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:20.399
I'm Dr.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:28.559
Sharon Spano, developmental coach, systems thinker, and a parent whose life was forever changed by the death of my own son Michael.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:31.760
Today I want to talk to you about capacity.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:37.359
Because after a child dies, something may change in what you're able to carry.
00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:48.000
What if this change isn't only a problem to fix?
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:50.240
What if it's something to understand?
00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:57.600
I was a nurse, and so I've been there for what I thought was grief with families for decades, literally decades.
00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:03.439
But through my own loss, what I learned was I was there for them for that notification of loss.
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:11.439
I was there for them for that moment, the shock, the sadness, the anger sometimes that comes with that moment.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:16.480
What I learned though is that grief is not that moment.
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:22.319
Grief happens when you understand how that's going to manifest in your life, right?
00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:38.719
When you can feel the absence of that person, when you realize what it means to not be able to go knock on Michael's door and scare today's news with him, they're very different experiences.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:40.640
They're very different.
00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:47.439
And I by the time you get to understand grief, everyone's gone.
00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:48.000
Yeah.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.200
And so there's a gap that happens after the few.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:02:17.039
And can I add that they're not, they may be physically in your life some way or another, or but they're not only gone from the grief experience, even though they may be carrying their own grief, but I think, and I want to hear you comment on this, I think there's a part of the people around us that are wanting us to get back to who we were because they don't want to see us in pain.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:19.520
They want us to get back to normal.
00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:26.479
And what you and I've been talking to and alluding to is what I call integration, holding the grief.
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:31.759
And I don't want to even say moving on, because it's not that you're moving on beyond them.
00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:40.240
As you stated at the outset, every day we're very aware that this child of ours is no longer in our presence and we miss them.
00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:45.520
But we are able to integrate that reality into a bigger reality.
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.439
Is that how you see it as well?
00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:48.400
100%.
00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:49.680
And you're exactly right.
00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.400
I don't move on, but I'm walking forward, right?
00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:54.319
Figuring out what's next.
00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.199
How do I take this new version of me?
00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.560
This, these, how these new experiences have changed me.
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.439
And how does that show up for the rest of my my life?
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:08.319
Because the most disrespectful thing would be for not to live my life.
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:19.520
As we reach the top of the hour, I want to be conscious of your time and I want to thank you for being so candid and vulnerable and open, Tom, in expressing what this journey has has been like for you.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:32.159
And I feel like today, Tommy's in the middle of this conversation, and he's just a big part of what we're hoping to bring to other parents and people around those parents who are trying to move through through this journey of loss.
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:47.120
And I think you've touched on this, but I want to end with one final question because again, we have bit very clearly stated that this show is really positioned and intended for parents who are in that, what I call the long after.
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:54.719
They've been through the years of the loss and have had to deal with the identity issues and all the things that we've kind of touched on briefly today.
00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:01.759
But I also know that those that are in the early stages, what I said in my first podcast is you deserve more than a podcast.
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:03.759
So please seek additional supports.
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:09.120
But I'm hoping they're listening and they can learn from those of us that are in that long after season.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:24.160
So if a parent listening today is in those early stages of losing a child and really can't imagine their ever, I remember feeling like I couldn't breathe, and maybe someone is in that place where they can't imagine carrying this loss for decades to come.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.560
What would you want them to know?
00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:31.199
I would want them to know that it's okay to say that you're not okay.
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:35.839
And you'll get to the other side of this, but it never goes away.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.319
And talk it out.
00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:54.079
Talk about it, whether it's through relationships with others who have experienced the same thing or whether it's through reaching out your benefits plan at work or whatever it is to sit down in a room with somebody and say, I just need to talk this out.
00:04:54.560 --> 00:05:04.399
And I promise you that when you start doing that, you will find thoughts will come into your mind that thoughts of joy, thoughts of happiness.
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:12.879
And then that create it's incredible, but that creates this completely different behavior where you can go out and live life fullest.
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:20.160
You
Load full transcript
can even smile and talk about the loss of little Tommy or little Jane to others, and people go, Are you nuts?
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:21.279
You're smiling, you're happy.
00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.240
It's like, no, he's the biggest blessing and gift of my life.
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:26.480
Let me tell you a story, by the way.
00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:41.040
I'm a home chef and a cook, and I envision right now Tommy's in the kitchen and we're making pancakes and waffles, and he's got batter all over his face, and he's giggling and laughing, and I'm putting batter in his hair, and we're having this batter fight.
00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:42.639
We're having the time of our life.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.399
And as I'm talking to you now, look at my face, the inflection of the smiles.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:48.879
That's where I've come in my life, everybody.
00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:55.759
Where today I talk seriously, but honestly, when people ask me about old Tommy, I can say with a smile on my face and talk about it.
00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:58.560
And I couldn't do that when I buried it.
00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:04.319
Did you do any family counseling or anything of that nature, grief counseling?
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:06.720
We did not at that time.
00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:15.920
We did not at that time, but really it takes, I would say it takes some time to learn to live with what you're in.
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:21.920
And and then there's a situation where if you wait too long to get counseling, you build up walls.
00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:26.319
And then you've got these patterns or patterns that you've built up that might not be healthy.
00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:34.800
So we did have Lucas go to counseling and I went to counseling and my mother went to counseling.
00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:42.639
We all went independently, and then about three years in, about three years after, Len and I went to marriage counseling.
00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:53.439
We went to a new counseling session, marriage, and it, but it also had to do with his grief that really mine was being, I was processing it through work.
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:55.360
I was processing it through the nonprofit.
00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:00.079
I, you know, I was processing it by talking with people about it and other people.
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.120
And I was processing it by helping Lucas.
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:05.279
So then we went to counseling.
00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:23.199
So what I would say when the tragedy of a loss of a child or the loss of a person, whether it's a sickness or when, but when you lose someone, you really, I really do recommend that personally give yourself a little bit of time, a week or two, to feel, okay, can I talk to someone?
00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:27.040
And I remember my mom saying to me, she said, I don't want to go back to counseling.
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:27.680
I just cry.
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.800
And I said, if that's the only time that you do cry, I think you should go.
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.279
Just pay them whatever you pay them to cry for an hour.
00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:35.439
Just go to go cry.
00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:42.959
So I would on Thursdays, I would go to go to a quiet place that I found that was a refuge, and I would journal.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:47.519
I would journal and talk to my dad and cry, and I would write letters to read and dad.
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:52.800
And I would write and I would tell them what was going on, and then I would laugh and say, Well, you probably know what's going on.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.600
And was there because I think I see that?
00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:02.399
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I often talk about journaling, how important it was for me, and I did write letters as well.
00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:12.639
But I'm assuming without going into the details of that, because I'm assuming it's in the book, there was a lot of other things going on around the event itself that you were also having to manage.
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:13.839
Is that accurate?
00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:15.759
Yes, he got arrested.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.720
He the shooter was arrested and in trial.
00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:20.800
So that showed up on the news often.
00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:26.639
We'd have the TV on, and then our family's pictures would show up on TV and they repeat what had happened.
00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.839
And so we quit what we had to turn the TVs off in the house.
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:31.120
Lucas was angry.
00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:37.039
Lucas became he was suicidal at 13 and suicidal again at 14.
00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:43.360
And it it took a lot for us to save him, and we did, and he's thriving.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:44.320
He is thriving.
00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.559
And everything I'm saying is written in the book.
00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:49.360
So he knows it's all been written and he knows about it.
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:51.600
And he's an empath.
00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:57.759
He is so good now at helping other people and always has been at seeing how other people feel.
00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:02.000
And he's very aware of how he feels at different times about different things.
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:09.279
I just commend him on unfortunately how mature he got as quickly as he did, but he needed specific care.
00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.799
So we gave him specific care for those two periods of time.
00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:18.080
I have had two wonderful therapists on my journey.
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:37.679
And what I appreciate about them, Bull, is that they called me out of my BS, meaning the stories that I kept telling myself or the why me, the what ifs that I think every greeting parent gets stuck in.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:38.639
It's normal.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:40.080
That's right, normal.
00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.600
And then I also want to address this idea of being stuck.
00:09:43.679 -->
00:09:48.720
And I struggle with that because I truly believe that feeling is healing.
00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:51.519
I think we need to cry to tears.
00:09:51.759 --> 00:10:02.320
We need to feel the feelings, even if we're fooled by society or I don't know who anger's bad or the depression or the denial or any of that stuff that we're feeling.
00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:16.320
They're feelings and they're our feelings, and we cannot ever move in a different direction, forward, whatever you want to call it, until we go through all of that.
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:18.159
It's part of the process.
00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.279
Every day I wake up and I know that my son is gone.
00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:26.799
And I want to point that out because I can know that and still progress through the day.
00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.879
I can know that and still have a gorgeous day, but I know that.
00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:40.720
And so that's important because there's still so much talk about people not wanting to bring it up for fear that they're going to remind you.
00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.919
As if we forget about it's such an important point.
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:44.320
Yeah.
00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:46.720
As if it's just been erased from our memory.
00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:47.360
Yes.
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.320
So it's a part of me, right?
00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.240
I am Kelly and I am a bereaver.
00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:02.960
And sometimes last week I was just driving down the road, and all of a sudden I thought, there's 50 people on this road.
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:07.120
I wonder if I'm the only one with a dead head.
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.759
That's like literally the thought that went through my mind.
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.200
So it's still shocking to me.
00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:12.320
Yeah, it's still shocking.
00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:20.320
I just remember tipping my head up to the sun, drinking all of this in for a moment, smiling.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:22.000
Joy.
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:22.720
Joy.
00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.080
Feeling joy again, which is so difficult.
00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:26.480
Yeah.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:33.360
But what followed quickly after was the punch in the gut and the little person on my shoulder chastising me.
00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:35.279
What is wrong with you, Lisa?
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:35.679
Yeah.
00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:37.519
What kind of mother are you?
00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:39.360
Your child is dead.
00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.960
How can you possibly experience joy?
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.240
But in the very next second, going, wait a minute.
00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.240
Wait just a second here.
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:53.200
I did not forget, Katie.
00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:57.759
I did not stop grieving in that moment of joy.
00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:02.720
And I realized that I could carry grief in one hand and joy in the other.
00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.200
Neither one of them canceled each other out.
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:05.759
No.
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:10.000
And I've also come to learn that grief is like a suitcase or a backpack.
00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:11.519
And some days it's really heavy.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:12.639
Some days it's light.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:18.159
We carry it with us every day, but we can experience different emotions at the same time.
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:23.919
I think even prior to grief, I realized we don't experience our emotions and silos.
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.720
I'm not just happy on a given day.
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:28.720
I'm probably frustrated about work.
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:38.480
And I'm probably depressed that my grandmother just passed away and all these other things, but maybe my dominant emotion is happiness.
00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:45.440
Anyway, it was a huge pivotal moment for me that just gave me permission to say, I can feel joy again.
00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:47.039
Even though it's a grieving mother.
00:12:47.360 --> 00:13:02.639
With the leader, the most important thing early on is to be present, is to say something like, I don't know what to say, I'm not exactly sure what to do, but I care about you and I'm sorry this happened.
00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.120
They can go to HR with the person, with the griever.
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:13.120
They could accommodate them to any extent that is available for some flex time.
00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:15.759
They can listen, they can have cleanics.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:22.320
They can say, if they were talking to me, they would say, I want you to tell me some of your great memories of REIT.
00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.799
Just like you opened with, please tell me some of your good memories with your dad.
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:40.480
Those are really helpful just to give your griever the awareness that you care about them and that you are present with them and that they're not just an employee and a number and revenue for you.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.279
I do think that living again is a choice.
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.559
It's a choice we make.
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.080
I make it every single day.
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:52.960
And I really love the way that you have pointed out the distinction between grieving and mourning.
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.279
And yeah, 100%.
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.039
I'm 10 plus years out.
00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:58.480
I grieve Katie every single day.
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:01.360
I always say I wear it right here, it's always right here.
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.039
And sometimes I have to put it over there.
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:06.399
I would also say that I'm no longer mourning her.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:10.240
So, in closing, if your capacity has changed, it doesn't mean you're failing.
00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:15.600
It may mean you're learning to live more truthfully inside what this loss has required of you.
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.799
Maybe you can't hold or do what you once did.
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.600
Maybe some things cost more than they used to.
00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:27.759
And maybe your tolerance is lower because your life has already asked too much of you up until now.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:35.440
And again, the question is not how quickly you can become who you were before, but what can you honestly hold?
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:49.679
And if this is part of your story, I hope you'll meet it with tenderness, not consider it as a weakness or a flaw, but as one more part of the hidden aftermath that deserves language, respect, and care.
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.399
Until next time, this is Dr.
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:58.639
Sharon Spano reminding you to take gentle care on this grief journey.
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.919
Thank you for spending this time with me.
00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:08.639
If this conversation stirred something for you, you don't need to make sense of it right away.
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:13.440
There's no timeline for understanding and no right way to carry what remains.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:26.799
Beyond the loss exists to honor parents who've lost a son or daughter and all the complexity that this implies, and to support the professionals who walk alongside them without comparison, judgment, or explanation.
00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:31.679
Wherever you are in the long after, you are not required to arrive anywhere else.
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.559
Until next time, take gentle care.