บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Word Mapping with Sean Morrisey

any sort of, you know, identifiable condition or disability or whatever word we're supposed to be using now? 00:04:57.727 --> 00:04:58.027 Sean: Yeah. 00:04:58.367 --> 00:04:59.828 Yeah, it's a great, that's a great question. 00:04:59.907 --> 00:05:06.657 I think as part of the evaluation process you're… I was fortunate to be, to observe in hundreds of classrooms. 00:05:07.157 --> 00:05:14.996 So like I, I definitely like be- like as now as a teacher, like I think that gave me a really great foundation. 00:05:15.466 --> 00:05:20.966 But you know, back in the day, it was balanced literacy, like in my district and in other d- in other districts. 00:05:21.006 --> 00:05:37.737 It was Fountas & Pinnell, Lucy like Lucy Calkins, where, you know, I'm observing students during like the ELA block, and the teacher is working with a small group, you know, generally doing reading strategies in, in the upper elementary grades, you know. 00:05:37.847 --> 00:05:52.503 Or maybe they're doing somewhat of a phonics lesson, but then all the other kids are at stations But it when I'm observing students, like in stations, you know, there are times where a student was off task almost the c- the entire time. 00:05:52.983 --> 00:05:55.783 So we're talking like an hour of an ELA block. 00:05:56.344 --> 00:06:05.543 And I was very research-based where I would actually, I had a headset and I would record every 30 seconds if a student looked like they were paying attention. 00:06:05.583 --> 00:06:10.745 And I would observe another student that was like and I would rotate like the typical peers. 00:06:11.326 --> 00:06:19.045 And there would be times where, you know, this, I would be rating the student off task almost the whole time, you know, for that hour. 00:06:19.885 --> 00:06:33.837 And then, you know, you're looking at the instruction and, you know, students are reading like, like a level C book where, you know, none of the phonics patterns carried over like in a kindergarten classroom or in early first grade. 00:06:34.456 --> 00:06:37.337 And it just, it didn't make, it didn't make sense to me. 00:06:37.716 --> 00:06:45.897 And it then as a s- as a psych trying to assess for a true reading disability, it's almost impossible to do that. 00:06:45.956 --> 00:06:47.016 You know, there's no blood test. 00:06:47.037 --> 00:06:50.677 You're taking like the culmination of all this evidence. 00:06:50.717 --> 00:07:01.816 But, you know, when a student is off task a lot, like you're not using like research-based methods, how do you tell if the student truly has a learning disability or not? 00:07:02.316 --> 00:07:09.015 You know, you, it, obviously some students, you know, struggle more and you could see that, but it w- it was really difficult. 00:07:09.426 --> 00:07:14.726 It, that is one of the reasons why I started to think about moving i- into teaching. 00:07:14.836 --> 00:07:16.296 I had a really difficult time with that. 00:07:16.996 --> 00:07:17.637 It

was hard for me. 00:07:18.126 --> 00:07:29.583 Gene: So when you moved into teaching were you able to carry a lot of- Good things that you witnessed, or were you more of a "Well, I'm not gonna do that. 00:07:29.643 --> 00:07:31.973 That's something I saw that I'm gonna do differently"? 00:07:32.353 --> 00:07:51.153 Sean: I think it was honestly both because, like, 'cause you're in s- like, you know, hundreds of classrooms, Gene, and I… There were some teachers who just were brilliant, and you're like, "Oh, definitely they had the management down. They just…" You know, you could see the kids are, like, 100% active participation with students. 00:07:51.673 --> 00:08:09.763 But then on the on the reverse side of that, there, there's definitely things like, yes, you know, when I start in first grade, I'm not gonna have all these centers where, you know, the kids are just off-task because, you know, you can't manage… Like, it's really hard even when you're an expert teacher to manage that all. 00:08:09.883 --> 00:08:18.493 Like, the cognitive load of trying to teach a small group- … and then have things, i- it… People say, "Oh, we can do it," but i- it's really difficult. 00:08:19.113 --> 00:08:19.273 Yeah. 00:08:19.333 --> 00:08:21.973 So it was kind of a bo- It w- it was definitely both, for sure. 00:08:23.093 --> 00:08:28.732 Gene: So you moved in, so you left, said goodbye to school psychology, and you moved into the classroom. 00:08:28.973 --> 00:08:29.043 Sean: Yeah. 00:08:29.453 --> 00:08:42.593 Gene: Were you as interested in vocabulary development in the beginning, or was it something that you just saw, "Wait a second, th- this is… There's a deficit here somewhere in our curriculum and I need to do something about it"? 00:08:42.813 --> 00:08:43.653 How did that develop? 00:08:43.733 --> 00:08:44.013 Sean: Yeah. 00:08:44.073 --> 00:08:46.063 I think it w- it was honestly from the get-go. 00:08:46.123 --> 00:08:53.133 Early on, and I don't remember what year it was, but I read Bringing Words to Life, you know, Isabel Beck and Margaret McKeown's book. 00:08:53.803 --> 00:09:00.763 And in- interesting, when I switched over to the classroom, I went through an alternate pathway, so I never student taught. 00:09:00.983 --> 00:09:05.943 So I worked at a preschool to kind of get my hours and to get my certification in New York State. 00:09:06.503 --> 00:09:10.513 My first true lesson was my observation lesson for teaching. 00:09:11.133 --> 00:09:14.933 So, like, you know, I applied in my own district, but I had to apply for the job. 00:09:15.033 --> 00:09:23.673 And I actually used a vocabulary lesson based on the structures in Bringing Words to Life. 00:09:23.713 --> 00:09:26.163 So, like, the structures of, like… Well, you write about it. 00:09:26.213 --> 00:09:26.782 You have a book on it. 00:09:26.782 --> 00:09:26.813 Yeah. 00:09:26.902 --> 00:09:29.713 The structures of a lesson plan are so important. 00:09:29.813 --> 00:09:38.513 And I remember at the end of that lesson, I'm like, "Wow, that was my first lesson I've ever done, and it went really smoothly- … 'cause the structures were in place." Yeah. 00:09:39.053 --> 00:09:44.973 And e- even the the administrators, they I think they were pleasantly surprised 'cause they knew I, I was a reader. 00:09:45.023 --> 00:09:52.523 I loved, like, literacy, but, you know, coming from the school psych world, I don't know if they thought if I could do it or not, you know? 00:09:53.043 --> 00:09:54.183 And yeah. 00:09:54.343 --> 00:09:57.583 Gene: Well, well, I have to- make a confession here. 00:09:58.423 --> 00:10:08.823 I was following you on Twitter, and you said something about bringing words to life, and it's like it just kind of, really got my attention because that was a pivotal book for me. 00:10:08.943 --> 00:10:23.153 You know, I never… I was already consulting then, but I wasn't so I wasn't applying what was there, but I was sharing with teachers so, you know, some of the content and told them, you know, this is a great resource and this sort of thing. 00:10:23.553 --> 00:10:26.733 So I have to say that that was kind of it for me as well. 00:10:27.073 --> 00:10:27.233 You know? 00:10:27.303 --> 00:10:27.313 Mm-hmm. 00:10:27.313 --> 00:10:37.673 Read- reading, reading that book and and a lot of… the thing that was different in the book was something that you talk about in your lesson structure. 00:10:37.703 --> 00:10:52.664 And I w- and I wanna talk a little bit about what you just mentioned about the coherent lessons and the structure being so important because you talk about daily instruction in vocabulary. 00:10:53.204 --> 00:10:59.924 Can you talk a little bit about what that what that sequence is, the s- the sequencing of it? 00:11:00.104 --> 00:11:10.643 And and then at some point we wanna go back to first day, and so don't re- don't worry if you didn't remember everything that I just said there because I know I wanna get back to that day one instruction. 00:11:11.804 --> 00:11:23.964 Sean: So I think, like, when we think about the lesson structure, you want it to be fairly fast-paced where, you know, the kids are still learning throughout, but you have their attention for, you know, for that whole time. 00:11:24.594 --> 00:11:33.414 So I always start off with some sort of, like, review or retrieval practice of what, like, previous day or days learning. 00:11:33.894 --> 00:11:46.584 So with vocabulary, it's always, like, asking kids questions where they turn and talk about words that they learned either the previous day or a couple days before. 00:11:46.744 --> 00:11:52.764 So you know, basically you're asking a student, you're asking the class a question, quick turn and talk. 00:11:53.224 --> 00:11:54.744 You know, let's discuss. 00:11:55.184 --> 00:12:00.044 So they're trying to apply their thinking about previous words right away. 00:12:00.124 --> 00:12:02.724 So, you know, a- Yeah

… and as kind of that retrieval practice. 00:12:03.034 --> 00:12:13.947 Gene: So I'm sorry to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think- You know, when we talk about retrieval practice, I think most people who listen to this podcast understand retrieval practice. 00:12:14.487 --> 00:12:21.447 But when you're asking about vocabulary words that you learned the day before- Yeah … what does, what might a question- 00:12:21.767 --> 00:12:21.927 Sean: Yeah 00:12:21.947 --> 00:12:24.187 … Gene: look like that you're asking them to retrieve? 00:12:24.627 --> 00:12:24.828 Sean: Yeah. 00:12:24.967 --> 00:12:32.917 Okay, so like f- for example, say we learned the words, and I always kind of teach, I like to teach my words in pairs, like segregation and congregation. 00:12:32.958 --> 00:12:35.618 So like I taught those words a- as a pair previous day. 00:12:35.997 --> 00:12:42.337 So like a qui- a question would be like, "Okay, laws at the time enforced segregation in schools and public places. 00:12:43.017 --> 00:13:00.077 What might have that meant for how people were treated?" And so you're just, like it's a, it- it's a general question, but the kids can have somewhat different answers and, you know, they're talking with one another, and then I'm kind of cold calling on, on, on certain students there. 00:13:00.537 --> 00:13:07.647 You know, it could be like, ooh "With trepidation, she stepped onto the stage and looked at the crowd." All right. 00:13:07.987 --> 00:13:09.207 How did she feel in that moment? 00:13:09.807 --> 00:13:21.987 You know, so like, you know, so then the kids are retrieving like, you know, you're, "Okay, whoa, what is trepidation?" And then okay, so she has this feeling of an- like then, oh, she's feeling anxious. 00:13:22.067 --> 00:13:22.547 She's nervous. 00:13:22.667 --> 00:13:23.867 There's a big crowd there. 00:13:24.247 --> 00:13:29.887 So those are the type of questions that are like what I call retrieval practice, but it's more thinking, you know? 00:13:29.928 --> 00:13:31.508 Well, and- And giving a variety. 00:13:32.087 --> 00:13:44.798 Gene: And Sean, that, what you just described was what was most important to me in reading th- that book, Way- W- you know, the Ways With Words book, because that was the distinction. 00:13:44.848 --> 00:13:50.708 It wasn't like, "Here are three possible definitions. Don't get…" No, dude, no, we're not worried about the definition. 00:13:50.788 --> 00:13:52.648 We're worried about an understanding. 00:13:53.328 --> 00:14:03.008 And and so, so that's your retrieval, but that's also the way that you check for understanding later and when you teach the words, correct? 00:14:03.108 --> 00:14:03.478 Sean: Yeah. 00:14:03.508 --> 00:14:17.418 So I mean, you could see, like, with individual students or as a group where, you know, which words do they seem to, like, pick up right, ri- right away, you know, as a group, and which words, you know, that are, you know, more difficult f- for sure. 00:14:17.478 --> 00:14:24.788 So, like, in the future, you're gonna spend more time on the ones that the class isn't picking up a- a- as quickly as others, for sure. 00:14:25.388 --> 00:14:27.208 Gene: Okay, so that's the first part of the lesson. 00:14:27.268 --> 00:14:29.568 You've done the retrieval, and then what's next? 00:14:29.708 --> 00:14:29.968 Sean: Yeah. 00:14:30.028 --> 00:14:35.448 So in, in the first part, I actually… Like, there's a couple of retrievals there where I am… 00:14:35.528 --> 00:14:39.557 So interesting with vocabulary I like to tie spelling with it. 00:14:40.337 --> 00:14:52.497 So when you think of, like, mapping words in long-term memory I think people really have to understand you want kids to pronounce the word, you want kids to spell the word, and you want kids to learn the meaning. 00:14:52.577 --> 00:14:53.937 You want all three of those. 00:14:54.017 --> 00:15:01.057 Like, you know, if you leave, leaving spelling off actually hinders long-term mapping of those words. 00:15:01.177 --> 00:15:02.537 Spelling actually really helps. 00:15:02.607 --> 00:15:08.117 So, I do a spelling dictation where the kids are listening to the words in context. 00:15:08.537 --> 00:15:13.677 So it's not like an active retrieval, but they're hearing the words in context in a different way, and then they're spelling those words. 00:15:14.077 --> 00:15:17.777 So to help map to help map that into long-term memory as well. 00:15:17.857 --> 00:15:19.507 So spelling dictation's always a part. 00:15:19.967 --> 00:15:27.427 And a little retrieval of just… it's a little bit more memorization, but a little more retrieval of just, what does this prefix mean? 00:15:27.497 --> 00:15:29.077 What does this suffix mean? 00:15:29.137 --> 00:15:31.337 You know, like P-R-E means what? 00:15:31.437 --> 00:15:32.677 Write it on your wipe-off boards. 00:15:33.197 --> 00:15:35.497 So there's a… Those are quick, though. 00:15:35.557 --> 00:15:37.336 Like, that's, like, one to two minutes. 00:15:38.116 --> 00:15:38.517 Gene: Okay. 00:15:38.877 --> 00:15:48.627 And, so retrieval practice, you having some new content- Yeah … covering it, and then you ment- you say that it is explicit instruction. 00:15:48.667 --> 00:15:49.087 Sean: Yeah. 00:15:49.097 --> 00:15:52.127 Gene: And that's a term that means a lot of things to a lot of people. 00:15:52.206 --> 00:15:57.027 So, so when you say you're gonna do a few minutes of explicit instruction, what does that look like? 00:15:57.087 --> 00:16:02.647 Sean: Yeah, so I'm teaching the words directly, like, like I'm teaching the meanings of the words. 00:16:02.747 --> 00:16:05.177 So, so here's kinda what it looks like. 00:16:05.207 --> 00:16:08.537 So if, say I say "Okay, the next word we're learning is segregation. 00:16:08.637 --> 00:16:10.997 What's the word?" Choral response. 00:16:11.437 --> 00:16:17.457 We- I wanna- So we want kids to pronounce that word correctly right

away, 'cause that's, that, that helps with mapping that word. 00:16:18.077 --> 00:16:29.797 Then I'm on the doc- under the document camera, and I'm s- putting that word in syllables, we're saying the word in syllables, and then I quickly move into basically giving a f- a student-friendly de- definition. 00:16:30.257 --> 00:16:35.177 Like, "Segregation means keeping people or things separated." So it's this, it's quick. 00:16:35.597 --> 00:16:42.217 It's their first exposure, and then a couple of quick examples so that they can tie it into context. 00:16:42.287 --> 00:16:50.557 Like, "In history, segregation kept people apart based on their race." You know, so you're giving a couple examples just like that. 00:16:50.597 --> 00:16:53.337 So but i- it's quick, it's explicit. 00:16:53.397 --> 00:17:00.067 You're not, like, playing guess what's in my head, like, "Oh, who knows what segregation means?" And I mean, we've all done this. 00:17:00.157 --> 00:17:00.187 Yeah. 00:17:00.187 --> 00:17:07.877 Like, I, you know, r- and y- you see teachers do this where, and then you call in a student, and a student is totally off, and you're like, "No." 00:17:07.977 --> 00:17:16.417 You call in another student, "What does segregation mean?" They're totally off, and then all the rest of the class has listened to, like, three wrong definitions, right? 00:17:16.457 --> 00:17:19.597 Or three wrong, and then that's what they're thinking about. 00:17:19.847 --> 00:17:23.337 So I just wanna, like, give them, you know, what it means right away. 00:17:24.037 --> 00:17:28.877 Gene: You know, a lot of people are, you know, look to you right now as the vocabulary guy. 00:17:29.876 --> 00:17:45.416 So let's talk about one of the things that still persists, that we can't kill it, and that is, "Okay, here are our vocabulary words for the day. I'm gonna give you 10 minutes. Look them up in the dictionary." Does, do you ever do that? 00:17:45.535 --> 00:17:48.775 Is that ever something you do or does it have its place? 00:17:49.415 --> 00:17:50.474 Sean: I think… Okay. 00:17:50.734 --> 00:17:53.574 Nu- number one is I do that 0% of the time in school. 00:17:53.595 --> 00:17:53.694 Okay. 00:17:53.714 --> 00:17:59.894 School, the time is just, minutes are precious, and I'm a, like, I always think opportunity cost. 00:17:59.915 --> 00:18:04.954 If I'm gonna have kids look up definitions for 10 minutes, that's 10 minutes that they're not doing something else. 00:18:04.974 --> 00:18:12.794 And are they really going to learn the words based on, like, a def- like, it, I it's just not a great use of time. 00:18:13.194 --> 00:18:27.184 I mean, certainly if a student is reading at home, they're reading their independent book and they don't know a word, like, yeah, like encouraging students to, to look up, l- look up meanings of words, like, like, th- I would encourage that. 00:18:27.284 --> 00:18:30.304 But doing that in school, I think we're too time poor 00:18:31.613 --> 00:18:36.463 Gene: and so what do you say to folks who say, well, we'll say "Well, you're just spoon-feeding them. 00:18:37.143 --> 00:18:38.893 You're just spoon-feeding them this information"? 00:18:39.543 --> 00:18:39.723 Sean: Yeah. 00:18:40.053 --> 00:18:56.683 There's a lot of words in the English language, and we can't, of course, we can't teach them all, but there are a lot of really important words that kids need to know, and if they don't, it's going to really hurt their reading comprehension going into middle and high school and even beyond. 00:18:57.203 --> 00:18:59.014 So w- I … we have to. 00:18:59.294 --> 00:19:02.474 Like, in, in spoon-feeding, like, we would … We just want kids to learn. 00:19:02.854 --> 00:19:07.654 Like, I'm gonna teach them, and they're gonna … They're, like, they're gonna listen and practice. 00:19:07.704 --> 00:19:09.684 And it's not just, like, the definitions too. 00:19:09.744 --> 00:19:25.184 Like, when you get into, like, if I'm teaching segregation, I'll teach congregation right after, but then, like, within that explicit instruction routine, right away I'm asking kids to differentiate between those two words. 00:19:25.224 --> 00:19:27.704 So I'm giving them examples right away. 00:19:27.744 --> 00:19:35.904 So, so, like, if you think it's kind of like guided practice where li- like, okay, so the people came together to sing and pray. 00:19:36.064 --> 00:19:37.254 Is that segregation? 00:19:37.404 --> 00:19:38.734 Is that congregation? 00:19:38.864 --> 00:19:49.164 So they're differentiating, but it's very structured and, you know, w- right away you want more correct answers, and so you're not making it too hard. 00:19:49.644 --> 00:19:54.384 But then the kids are spelling those words on mini whiteboards as well, so they're getting spelling practice. 00:19:54.464 --> 00:20:00.404 So, I'm not … I don't … Like, I wouldn't call that spoon-feeding 'cause they're always, you're always making them think. 00:20:00.794 --> 00:20:00.804 Yeah. 00:20:00.804 --> 00:20:02.324 Like, that's the whole point of it, right? 00:20:02.384 --> 00:20:09.664 Gene: Pe- people can't see me, but I'm smiling so big because yes, I mean, there are just some things that need to be mediated by adults. 00:20:10.584 --> 00:20:10.594 Mm-hmm. 00:20:10.594 --> 00:20:22.764 And I imagine that the way that you present that content, which by the way, is exactly the way you do the retrieval, you know, you put the words together so the kids are, the kids have an understanding of how these words are gonna be presented. 00:20:23.384 --> 00:20:32.034 But those are sophisticated words and- and as I'm thinking about, you know, the different tiers, and I'm thinking about, oh, you're doing social studies. 00:20:32.314 --> 00:20:35.854 Is segregation a tier two word or a tier three word? 00:20:36.514 --> 00:20:37.274 Ir- it's irrelevant. 00:20:37.314 --> 00:20:40.614 They- Right … they still they still need

mediation from an adult. 00:20:41.254 --> 00:20:41.674 Sean: Yeah. 00:20:41.724 --> 00:20:47.414 And even with that, like, I'm, like, who cares if we're, someone categorizes a tier two or three word? 00:20:47.494 --> 00:21:01.014 But, like, even with the word segregation, breaking it up, and we'll g- we can get more into morphology, but, like, breaking it up into its parts, it's … You, then you're g- you're gonna, you're gonna think about other words that have those different morphemes in it. 00:21:01.074 --> 00:21:17.919 Like in segregation, G-R-E-G, greg means flock- And segregation, S-E the prefix, like you're, it's, you know, y- the group, you're breaking it apart you know, versus congregation, C-O-N being the prefix there, which is with or together. 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:26.799 So then you're, like, kind of layering that in and you're scaling up and having kids think about the parts of the words as well, you know? 00:21:26.959 --> 00:21:33.871 So you're always wanting kids to be thinking about li- like, you know, the whole word, the parts of the word, and things like that 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:37.919 Gene: So, okay, four parts of your lesson. 00:21:37.979 --> 00:21:42.809 So far we've talked about the retrieval, which i- includes spelling and dictation. 00:21:42.809 --> 00:21:42.878 Yeah. 00:21:42.919 --> 00:21:48.279 The explicit instruction- Yeah … which you've just described, and then you have fluency passages. 00:21:49.179 --> 00:22:00.059 Sean: Yeah, so, so fluency passages, you want, like, after explicit instruction, you want students to be reading those words in context, so you want kids to be pronouncing those words. 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:05.879 And these are hard tier two words, like when you think about… and they're multi-syllabic words. 00:22:05.939 --> 00:22:09.989 So for upper elementary kids, you know, th- they're not always easy to pronounce. 00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:17.009 Like when you think about, like, trepidation, segregation, you know, confidence, like congregation. 00:22:17.409 --> 00:22:22.149 So you're embedding those words into into a fluency passage. 00:22:22.209 --> 00:22:25.669 So then students are going through a nice, a fluency routine. 00:22:26.169 --> 00:22:38.009 And the fluency routine is, you know, there's so much research on different fluency routines that work, but you're just embedding those words so they're practicing those words in context as well. 00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:39.959 And it kind of changes up the lesson. 00:22:39.999 --> 00:22:50.039 So the kids get up, they move with their partners and I think it you know, they're, I- they're mentally, they're, like, even refreshed. 00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:56.739 You know, they're still with it in the lesson, 'cause you kind of just, you kind of changed it and you broke it up a little bit there. 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:57.139 Yeah. 00:22:57.199 --> 00:23:06.499 Gene: A- and so, like you said, there are various fluency routines, so it doesn't ha- it's not the exact same thing every time or do you do the exact same routine every time? 00:23:06.549 --> 00:23:06.689 Yeah, 00:23:06.849 --> 00:23:12.929 Sean: so, so that is all gonna be de- dependent on the students in your classroom, grade level. 00:23:12.999 --> 00:23:25.349 You know, for example, you know, if you're, if I'm a third grade teacher and my students are less fluent, I may be reading that passage first aloud so the kids can hear f- fluent reading. 00:23:25.429 --> 00:23:28.989 They can hear especially the w- the focus words more. 00:23:29.069 --> 00:23:30.929 They're hearing it in context from you. 00:23:31.509 --> 00:23:32.449 So for sure. 00:23:32.829 --> 00:23:38.569 You could even have kids chorally read as a class one time before they break up into partners. 00:23:39.089 --> 00:23:47.489 If your class in fifth grade, if you have a fairly more on the fluent side of fifth grade, you may, th- those kids may not need all that scaffolding. 00:23:47.829 --> 00:23:50.949 They may be able to jump right into, to partnerships. 00:23:51.449 --> 00:24:08.840 And, you know, because time is precious, you know, the more time you spend on a fluency passage, it's important, but if your class is fairly fluent and you can move through that routine a little bit quicker, then you have more time to do something else But even in my class I have a very wide range this year. 00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:23.020 For a couple of my strugglers, when they do break into partners, I'll use like an echo routine where the more fluent partner reads a paragraph and the less fluent par- partner kind of echoes that, 'cause they need that scaffold. 00:24:23.199 --> 00:24:26.228 They need to hear it, and then they need to read it right away. 00:24:26.278 --> 00:24:27.398 It's definitely a big help. 00:24:28.078 --> 00:24:29.818 Gene: Wow, I got so many things I wanna ask you. 00:24:30.078 --> 00:24:35.207 So, after this, let's let's finish the fourth part, and then we'll go back and a- and ask some questions. 00:24:35.267 --> 00:24:37.968 And then the fourth part is the, is independent practice. 00:24:38.687 --> 00:24:38.847 Sean: Yeah, 00:24:38.947 --> 00:24:40.927 Gene: so- So, so what does that look like? 00:24:41.964 --> 00:24:43.084 With the selected words 00:24:43.104 --> 00:24:46.104 Sean: just a variety of independent practice routines. 00:24:46.224 --> 00:24:56.124 It may be like sentences and context where they're filling in previously learned words, and they're trying to figure out which one of these words fits in this sentence. 00:24:56.744 --> 00:25:03.154 So, you know, and it could be words like with, like, the same, like, morphology base. 00:25:03.214 --> 00:25:05.314 It could be like segregate. 00:25:06.074 --> 00:25:07.454 It could be congregate. 00:25:07.614 --> 00:25:10.814 It can be like an aggregate or aggregate. 00:25:11.274 --> 00:25:12.714 It could be gregarious. 00:25:13.054 --> 00:25:16.294 So just

figuring out which words fit in context. 00:25:16.714 --> 00:25:19.934 It could be writing tasks like because, but, so. 00:25:20.574 --> 00:25:20.994 You know? 00:25:21.554 --> 00:25:34.254 You know, the dogs were segregated because… or, you know, something like that where the kids really have to think and then complete, you know, a sentence in, in, in context. 00:25:34.714 --> 00:25:47.394 So it's just a variety of independent where you want… You- they're put in there so the kids, you want them to be pretty successful, but you also want them to be thinking the whole time in various ways. 00:25:47.444 --> 00:25:50.804 Sometimes it's just like, "Here's a picture. 00:25:50.904 --> 00:25:57.304 Here are like 10 words we just learned in like the last, you know, three, three or four days. 00:25:57.804 --> 00:26:04.304 Write a short story about this picture, and try to embed a- as many words as you can." And kids love that. 00:26:04.374 --> 00:26:18.364 Like, like, they, they wanna write stories, and how creative they are to embed some words where, as an adult, you think, "Oh, I can, like, they're never gonna be able to do this." And they always rise to the occasion, for sure. 00:26:19.144 --> 00:26:27.794 Gene: You know, so we've talked about your vocabulary lesson and you've r- you're recommending approximately 30 minutes a day that you're spending on this. 00:26:27.844 --> 00:26:35.664 And most elementary schools where I work, at elementary, by the way, where I am, it's the same as elementary where you are. 00:26:36.344 --> 00:26:36.564 Sean: Okay. 00:26:36.704 --> 00:26:37.963 Gene: I learned that in New York. 00:26:38.044 --> 00:26:41.994 I had never heard elementary, so I was ready fo- I was ready for you Sean. 00:26:42.514 --> 00:26:45.814 So most elementary blocks are like at least 90 minutes. 00:26:45.854 --> 00:26:47.614 Sometimes they're 120 minutes. 00:26:47.774 --> 00:26:47.914 Sean: Yeah. 00:26:48.294 --> 00:26:59.414 Gene: So you, you described a big portion of this block as designated for vocabulary, but it sounds like you embedded a lot of stuff in there. 00:26:59.574 --> 00:27:00.174 Sean: Yeah. 00:27:00.234 --> 00:27:01.964 So it's just kinda layering things. 00:27:02.024 --> 00:27:11.514 So, like, y- I think vocabulary, if peop- if people look at the lesson, yes, vocabulary stands out, but you're also spelling throughout the lesson as well. 00:27:11.634 --> 00:27:20.805 You, there's a fluency within the lesson, so- A lot of times I think, you know, programs or teachers, like, they, like, put those, all those things into different parts. 00:27:20.944 --> 00:27:22.754 But I don't think we have to put them into parts. 00:27:22.815 --> 00:27:34.134 Can we put them in a structure that, like, makes sense and everything's interconnected where, you know, okay, it is vocabulary, but it also is fluency. 00:27:34.195 --> 00:27:35.634 It also is spelling. 00:27:36.014 --> 00:27:38.514 And then there's the other piece that kind of ties it all in. 00:27:38.554 --> 00:27:40.114 It also is morphology. 00:27:40.615 --> 00:27:46.335 So it's just bi- it's bigger than just learning, like, like this word here or this word there 00:27:51.953 --> 00:27:56.353 Gene: so we've made reference several times to tier two and tier three words. 00:27:56.443 --> 00:27:58.003 We haven't mentioned tier one words. 00:27:58.563 --> 00:28:04.751 Could you just give a brief description for everybody who might not be up on what those tiers are, what they mean? 00:28:05.292 --> 00:28:05.412 Sean: Yeah. 00:28:05.552 --> 00:28:13.952 So tier one words are, like, really common words that, like, m- kids would just know, unless you're just new, unless you're new to the language. 00:28:14.012 --> 00:28:20.392 So house, ball, run, those are tier one words that generally students know. 00:28:20.792 --> 00:28:25.852 We wouldn't wanna spend time teaching them, tho- those because they already know them. 00:28:26.452 --> 00:28:30.912 Tier two words, I kind of break these up a l- a little bit m- maybe differently than some. 00:28:31.452 --> 00:28:45.672 I would say, like, descriptive vocabulary words that are harder than typical words we use in speech, like words for happy, you know, like euphoric, elated, you know, jubilant. 00:28:45.972 --> 00:28:49.831 Sometimes we don't use those even as teachers in our daily, like, talk. 00:28:50.412 --> 00:28:54.832 I would consider, like, that- those descriptive vocabulary words as tier two words. 00:28:55.352 --> 00:29:10.312 Then I would consider, like, academic vocabulary that c- that words that come up in content areas like science or social, like function or aspect or characteristic or feature. 00:29:10.852 --> 00:29:15.352 Those would be considered tier two words because they're really important. 00:29:15.412 --> 00:29:21.712 They come up a fair amount, but we may not necessarily use them in our daily language that much. 00:29:22.172 --> 00:29:31.362 But these are vital words for kids to know or it could really if they don't, it's gonna really hinder their comprehension of the material for sure. 00:29:31.402 --> 00:29:32.882 Gene: And then the tier three? 00:29:32.942 --> 00:29:38.182 Sean: Yeah, tier three words are, like, specific to, like, the content area. 00:29:38.272 --> 00:29:41.172 Like maybe, like, photosynthesis for science. 00:29:41.272 --> 00:29:53.752 You know, that would be more of, like, a, of a tier thr- three word that we're gonna generally teach that in, in the con- in the content area where you know, for the most part. 00:29:54.792 --> 00:30:04.152 Gene: So it sounds like a lot of work has to be and the work that we just described in your lesson, mainly tier two, there could be some tier three- Yeah … but mainly tier two words. 00:30:05.182 --> 00:30:11.006 How do you determine- which tier two words to use to teach? 00:30:11.076 --> 00:30:11.316 Sean: Yeah. 00:30:11.816 --> 00:30:17.316 So I don't think there's

like a, there's not a, like a per- like a perfect answer for this. 00:30:17.776 --> 00:30:21.156 There are a couple, like there are a couple lists out there. 00:30:21.236 --> 00:30:24.756 Like there's a list called Coxhead's Academic Word List. 00:30:25.216 --> 00:30:26.356 I think they're out of Australia. 00:30:26.366 --> 00:30:39.576 I think about 25 years ago, they actually looked up the corpus of like words that are in like a lot of like high school and college textbooks, and they kind of ranked ordered what words came up more often. 00:30:40.146 --> 00:30:42.906 Like the word benefit would be one of those words. 00:30:43.366 --> 00:30:49.906 So like that list, there's a lot of words that come up a lot that I think are important to teach. 00:30:50.466 --> 00:31:00.956 But you know, after like those lists, it's just like words that, you know, you think that would be really important for kids to know, and how to like scale that up. 00:31:01.016 --> 00:31:04.756 Like, you know, if you're doing words for happy, let's talk and teach a bunch of those. 00:31:04.856 --> 00:31:05.916 Let's not just do one. 00:31:06.016 --> 00:31:16.257 Let's really focus on, you know, satisfied, content, you know, elated, euphoric, and getting some range of like happiness as well. 00:31:16.357 --> 00:31:19.877 So it's just like studying words in groups. 00:31:20.037 --> 00:31:23.657 I think some words in groups are more important, like words for change. 00:31:23.997 --> 00:31:29.817 You know, y- there's so many important words that have to do you know, with change. 00:31:29.897 --> 00:31:35.977 You know, you know, you have evolve, you have adapt, you have morph, you know? 00:31:36.457 --> 00:31:43.177 So like thinking about all of those type of words I think like in some of those categories are really important. 00:31:44.217 --> 00:31:56.177 Gene: So as you choose these words and wherever teachers get a list like that, Do they include the morphology that you talk about, or is that something that you need to now create? 00:31:57.067 --> 00:32:02.957 Or do the lists include some of that content, or is that… Th- this is where your work benefits the teachers? 00:32:03.387 --> 00:32:03.827 Sean: Yeah. 00:32:03.966 --> 00:32:09.017 I think, like, you know, I've embedded morphology just into my daily lessons. 00:32:09.167 --> 00:32:11.237 I think that's a, it's a it's part of it. 00:32:11.787 --> 00:32:26.377 Because you just… Morphology is one way you could really scale up vocabulary learning, because if you know a certain base m- means something, you can k- kind of start picking up other words other words as well. 00:32:26.947 --> 00:32:30.967 So morphology kind of ties, I think morphology ties it all together. 00:32:31.007 --> 00:32:35.487 Like, like for example, cult, C-U-L-T, meaning to grow. 00:32:35.967 --> 00:32:39.647 You know, you have aquaculture, right? 00:32:39.967 --> 00:32:43.547 You know, then you're thinking, "Oh, what does aqua mean?" You know, you have agriculture. 00:32:44.147 --> 00:32:46.027 You have cultivate. 00:32:46.447 --> 00:32:50.807 You know, you even have, like, words like multicultural, uncultured. 00:32:51.307 --> 00:32:58.787 So, you know, trying to put v- various different words, but that kind of hold that same base is important. 00:33:00.447 --> 00:33:04.417 Gene: So what do you think after… What's your goal for a year? 00:33:04.967 --> 00:33:06.237 That you're doing this a whole year. 00:33:06.307 --> 00:33:07.877 Like, is there a number of words? 00:33:07.927 --> 00:33:11.037 Is that even a nonsense question, or? 00:33:11.087 --> 00:33:11.487 Sean: No. 00:33:11.527 --> 00:33:13.467 So I'm a little bit of an outlier here, Gene. 00:33:13.537 --> 00:33:25.467 So, like, there's… You'll read in books, like, kids can only learn this amount of words, and, you know, we should only teach kids, like, you know, five, like, five, 10 words a week and things like that. 00:33:26.477 --> 00:33:28.307 I don't like to put any constraints. 00:33:28.527 --> 00:33:42.187 Like, typically, I probably within a two-week period throughout all my subject areas, oh, I'm teaching well, I'm probably teaching over 50 words Yeah, for sure. 00:33:42.227 --> 00:33:48.537 Like, I'm t- you're talking about 25 wor- probably five different words a day, which seems kinda crazy. 00:33:48.577 --> 00:34:06.617 But if your lessons are, there, there's … if you are in your lessons, and you're making sure there's a ton of different opportunities that the kids are seeing these words and thinking about the words and using the words, and it's structured in that way, kids can pick them up. 00:34:07.197 --> 00:34:09.617 But, you know, th- that's the hard thing for teachers. 00:34:09.727 --> 00:34:12.017 It, it takes a l- it takes a lot of planning time. 00:34:12.077 --> 00:34:17.757 Like, it's not … I think vocabulary's difficult 'cause it takes a lot of planning time to to do it all. 00:34:17.777 --> 00:34:37.327 Gene: Well, you know, I think one of the things that I t- that I heard you on another podcast or saw you someplace, you talked about being able to expand the number of words and that maybe they weren't as specifically taught, but they continued to be used in your language as a teacher- Yeah 00:34:37.327 --> 00:34:38.567 almost as a positives. 00:34:38.967 --> 00:34:42.927 Like, you kept going back to them, and just the repetition- 00:34:43.887 --> 00:34:44.027 Sean: Yeah 00:34:44.137 --> 00:34:45.317 … Gene: the kids would pick it up. 00:34:45.377 --> 00:34:47.557 Is that, am I correct in how you do that? 00:34:47.997 --> 00:34:49.597 Sean: Of g- 100% correct. 00:34:49.657 --> 00:35:00.977 Like, I think that's one thing that every year, I think over the last 15, 20 years, every year I slowly get a little better, and I'm just using more words in, in, in daily language. 00:35:01.497 --> 00:35:03.177 I don't know what the study was. 00:35:03.277 --> 00:35:04.637 I

can't, I forgot the authors. 00:35:04.717 --> 00:35:27.787 But there's a study done, it was in second grade, on vocabulary, and they actually taped teachers, like, throughout the course of the year, and the students that were the best readers, that had the best reading comprehension it, the teachers, they had the teachers who used more sophisticated words throughout the day Which was like a big, like… 00:35:28.487 --> 00:35:38.507 So just using words throughout the day i- is so important, and they don't even have to be words that are sort of like in your, like, vocabulary lessons. 00:35:38.607 --> 00:35:40.487 Like for example, the word ambiguous. 00:35:41.007 --> 00:35:47.507 It's, you know, right away, like you're giving kids directions, the kids aren't following them very well. 00:35:47.567 --> 00:35:48.867 You know, I never yell at the kids. 00:35:48.887 --> 00:35:51.326 It's like, yeah, it was my fault, obviously, right? 00:35:51.827 --> 00:36:02.717 So I'm like, "Ooh, those directions were ambiguous. They were not clear." So I'm like giving a little definition right with that, and let me make those, let me make those directions more clear. 00:36:03.017 --> 00:36:16.937 But if you say like ambiguous like that a, like a few times throughout like that week, the kids just naturally pick up on what that means, and you didn't have to do like a lot of explicit instruction with that. 00:36:17.047 --> 00:36:20.807 You know, and, you know, it's like, like I use this as example, like concur. 00:36:21.127 --> 00:36:28.027 And my first grade colleague, I gave her that one about two weeks ago, and her first graders have been using it. 00:36:28.187 --> 00:36:39.687 And like even the other day, she was … Sh- she came up to me and she's like, "Oh my goodness," like, you know, one of the kids an- answered the questions and one of her other first graders kind of said like, "Oh, I concur with Mary." 00:36:39.787 --> 00:36:41.667 Like, just like said it like that. 00:36:42.267 --> 00:36:47.617 And you know, so like it's very cool, and she just started using it in language. 00:36:47.677 --> 00:37:00.877 Like, you know, because I told her, "Oh, just use concur and like say, 'Oh, do you agree?'" And the kids, like she did it, you know, a bunch of times, but it was, i- it's, it didn't take… It wasn't, it w- there was no time off from instruction, right? 00:37:01.237 --> 00:37:12.927 She's just saying, oh, like if you normally say, "Hey, do you agree with Mary? Do you concur? Do you agree with Mary?" There's no more time, you know, for instruction there, and the kids are naturally picking it up. 00:37:13.867 --> 00:37:14.186 Gene: Yeah. 00:37:14.346 --> 00:37:16.026 V- you know, ve- very interesting. 00:37:16.187 --> 00:37:23.755 And it, like you said it takes some awareness from the teacher's part, not necessarily a lot of time, but just an awareness of- Yeah 00:37:23.776 --> 00:37:25.595 of some op- well, the opportunities. 00:37:25.635 --> 00:37:26.835 Like, this is an opportunity. 00:37:27.115 --> 00:37:27.515 Sean: Yeah. 00:37:27.835 --> 00:37:49.475 I think we need to do, and this is definitely what I think we need to do, is we need to have words like that are, like, written down for us because the cognitive load for teachers, you are trying to manage a million different things, and you will not go back to words like that, especially if this is m- more newer to you. 00:37:49.975 --> 00:37:53.455 You need it there to look, oh, I need to use this word today. 00:37:53.975 --> 00:38:01.435 And so it's almost, you know, like, sort of in your lesson at the, like, be- oh, I'm gonna use these two words today. 00:38:01.575 --> 00:38:03.235 I'm gonna try to use them three times. 00:38:03.595 --> 00:38:12.245 I'm gonna use these couple words the next day, and maybe Thursday and Friday you try to u- use, like, those five or six words just in your daily language. 00:38:12.565 --> 00:38:16.485 But they need to be written down or you'll, y- you just don't think about it. 00:38:17.085 --> 00:38:37.347 Gene: You know, I could see that would be a nice grade level activity or PLC activity or something just coming up with these lists because so many times there are nice lists, as you mentioned, but- They don't know you, they don't know your kids, they don't know where you're going, and it's nice that at the end of the year you've got not just Sean's class, but every class- Yeah 00:38:37.357 --> 00:38:38.417 has had an opportunity. 00:38:39.007 --> 00:38:41.467 Well, I want to talk about tier three words for a second. 00:38:42.197 --> 00:38:46.867 And you mentioned that tier three words are the related to the disciplines. 00:38:47.497 --> 00:38:53.837 And so for example, you used the example of photosynthesis might be a word that- Yeah … that you're gonna be teaching. 00:38:54.787 --> 00:39:01.487 I'm gonna make a statement based on our conversation so far and if you concur, let me know. 00:39:01.927 --> 00:39:11.077 So, so photosynthesis doesn't seem to be one of those words that would be taught explicitly as a vocabulary word. 00:39:11.857 --> 00:39:17.837 It seems to me photosynthesis needs a much deeper explanation about what's going on. 00:39:18.497 --> 00:39:36.877 A- and the reason that I'm asking you this is because I know a lot of teachers when we talk about vocabulary, they make no distinction between what are the concepts that they're gonna teach- Yeah … in the lesson that have a term r- tied to it versus just … I concur. 00:39:37.277 --> 00:39:39.477 I mean- Right … you know, there, there's a big difference. 00:39:39.577 --> 00:39:39.627 Right. 00:39:39.627 --> 00:39:40.737 There's a big difference there. 00:39:41.037 --> 00:39:41.137 Sean: Yeah. 00:39:41.937 --> 00:39:42.097 Yeah. 00:39:42.217 --> 00:39:44.517 I mean, 'cause the photosynthesis is a process. 00:39:44.757 --> 00:39:49.697 So you're t- you're teaching that within the pro- with- within the process of

that unit. 00:39:49.857 --> 00:39:54.377 You're not going to like, you know, just teach that kind of out of the blue. 00:39:54.497 --> 00:39:55.956 That, that needs to be a process. 00:39:56.177 --> 00:40:12.537 Now, I will say after kids learn that word, like within the science concept, you could pull the morphemes out of that word, like photo meaning light, but, you know, generally that would come after. 00:40:12.577 --> 00:40:13.807 You know, that would come after, 00:40:14.467 --> 00:40:17.777 Gene: it's almost as a cue for them to remember the concept. 00:40:18.317 --> 00:40:18.437 Sean: Yeah. 00:40:18.547 --> 00:40:22.357 Gene: But knowing it beforehand it's like reading a dictionary definition. 00:40:22.497 --> 00:40:26.217 It's not really that useful unless you know what's underneath it. 00:40:26.717 --> 00:40:27.597 Sean: Right, right, right. 00:40:27.897 --> 00:40:28.537 Gene: Okay. 00:40:28.567 --> 00:40:28.577 Yeah. 00:40:28.637 --> 00:40:28.837 Okay. 00:40:29.257 --> 00:40:40.267 S- so, so when you're doing your vocabulary routine, those tier three words- Are not in them, are not in the they're g- they're gonna be in your lessons about the content. 00:40:40.507 --> 00:40:41.457 Sean: Yeah for the most part. 00:40:41.577 --> 00:40:48.877 I mean, there are some words, like if people want it, like maybe say like democracy or autocracy. 00:40:49.017 --> 00:40:51.537 Maybe some people may consider those tier three words. 00:40:52.057 --> 00:41:15.257 But, you know, i- in parts, you know, if you're teaching the w- the root C-R-A-C-Y, meaning ru- rule, sometimes just teaching all those words because they g- they're anchored back to that base that means rule, so like I don't think that's a bad thing to do either, 'cause then they're like, "Oh, autocracy, one ruler," and then 00:41:15.447 --> 00:41:21.987 But in general, doing that within the unit I think is definitely more powerful. 00:41:22.507 --> 00:41:22.707 Yeah. 00:41:23.187 --> 00:41:34.757 Gene: Well, be- because even those examples like autocracy and democracy, there are still a lot to understand that the kids need some mediation on, on, on those terms. 00:41:34.837 --> 00:41:37.197 It's not enough say, "Oh, we're gonna vote on it." 00:41:37.297 --> 00:41:38.107 Nah nah. 00:41:38.157 --> 00:41:38.167 Yeah. 00:41:38.187 --> 00:41:41.107 You know, there, there's still more, there's still more mediation that needs to happen. 00:41:41.137 --> 00:41:57.917 Sean: And I think what would … It's interesting is, like I wonder, like if kids are learning more out of context those words, but they're getting a little bit of a base, if they're learning, then when the content comes will be a little quicker, you know, as well. 00:41:57.987 --> 00:42:09.977 You know, but that but that's hard, 'cause you don't wanna, you don't wanna wait too much for words like that until you're getting into really in-depth, you know, kind of conceptual work in high school, you know what I mean? 00:42:10.057 --> 00:42:12.627 Like- Sure … so there's a middle ground, I think, in, in some times. 00:42:12.727 --> 00:42:13.067 Gene: Well, yeah. 00:42:13.077 --> 00:42:20.837 Well, I think in social studies that really is a dilemma- Yeah … because we want to build this content knowledge, but it's at a seven-year-old level. 00:42:21.825 --> 00:42:24.045 So what does democracy mean when you're seven? 00:42:24.505 --> 00:42:24.705 Sean: Right. 00:42:25.205 --> 00:42:28.444 Gene: Versus, you know, learning about the electoral college. 00:42:28.745 --> 00:42:28.755 Yeah. 00:42:28.785 --> 00:42:31.205 I mean, you know, it's a it's a very different type of thing. 00:42:31.505 --> 00:42:31.585 Yeah. 00:42:31.625 --> 00:42:44.355 Well, you know, it's interesting, you know, as I've, … I was wa- reading Twitter once, and there was a teacher was sharing with you about the excitement that their kids had about learning vocabulary. 00:42:45.205 --> 00:42:56.275 And I was tell- talking to a friend of mine and I said, "You know, I could just imagine that, that teacher is just a geek about, you know, about learning vo- learning words and just loves language." 00:42:56.935 --> 00:43:02.525 And whatever identity a teacher has, that excitement is gonna spill over to the kids. 00:43:03.565 --> 00:43:10.855 And I had … And then I was talking about you with my friend, and I said, "I bet Sean's like that. I bet Sean's like that." Is that how you were? 00:43:11.095 --> 00:43:12.635 Sean: Th- I've been totally the opposite. 00:43:13.644 --> 00:43:19.995 So I grew up in a little city outside of Buffalo, and like, w- I was al- I was always an okay student. 00:43:20.115 --> 00:43:25.135 Like, ex- I think I excelled in math, but my language was never, like, really strong. 00:43:25.535 --> 00:43:36.285 You know, people who know the SAT, like, I think I, I would … I struggled to get a 500 on the ELA portion of the SAT, and I just remember the analogies. 00:43:36.485 --> 00:43:39.265 I had no idea how these words were related. 00:43:39.785 --> 00:43:43.215 And you know, like somet- like you get there, "Oh, you gotta practice before college." 00:43:43.285 --> 00:43:49.405 And I'm, like, practicing with these books, you know, I don't know how many, like a l- a lot of years ago, but I had no idea. 00:43:50.025 --> 00:43:55.205 So my language was never, … I don't think my language was w- was strong early on. 00:43:55.285 --> 00:44:00.965 I think honestly my language now is much stronger just because I'm teaching, 'cause I'm teaching the words. 00:44:01.325 --> 00:44:01.505 Gene: Yeah. 00:44:01.665 --> 00:44:02.095 Sean: Interesting. 00:44:02.105 --> 00:44:03.485 And I'm teaching the morphology. 00:44:03.945 --> 00:44:05.005 I think I've scaled up. 00:44:05.075 --> 00:44:13.295 If I was ever tested and we had, like, a longitudinal test, I think the last 10 years would … I probably ha- I have a little spike because just of teaching it. 00:44:13.335

--> 00:44:14.195 I'm better at it. 00:44:14.255 --> 00:44:14.425 Yeah. 00:44:15.515 --> 00:44:17.405 Gene: So, we're getting near the end here. 00:44:17.505 --> 00:44:33.805 So thinking about teachers who just haven't really done a lot of work in vocabulary, or they've … it's been very rudimentary or it's been things that just haven't been effective, what advice would you give them for getting started? 00:44:34.803 --> 00:44:37.363 Sean: Yeah, I think n- number one, small steps. 00:44:37.893 --> 00:44:38.853 You know, you're not going 00:44:38.973 --> 00:44:41.493 This isn't gonna be an overnight process. 00:44:41.933 --> 00:44:46.603 You know, I think for me, every year I try to s- you know, slowly get better. 00:44:46.673 --> 00:44:48.893 I think number one though, explicit instruction. 00:44:48.933 --> 00:44:55.653 Like I, you know, I share my routines, you know, on social media where teaching, you know, teaching pairs of words. 00:44:56.193 --> 00:45:01.393 Steal that, take that, and use that in all your d- all your content areas. 00:45:01.433 --> 00:45:10.093 So like, for example, whatever reading program you use, you know, they usually will like say, okay, they pick some words out of this chapter. 00:45:10.153 --> 00:45:20.243 Okay, take the word that they pick and then find a really good antonym or a word that's not related, and use, use the structured routine I use. 00:45:20.313 --> 00:45:31.763 'Cause I think, you know, having kids learn two words and then they're differentiating right away spelling them, like that's something that you could take and implement tomorrow in your classroom for sure. 00:45:32.503 --> 00:45:37.412 And one summer, and I did this, sometimes it just takes hard work. 00:45:37.492 --> 00:45:40.232 I studied prefixes, suffixes. 00:45:40.312 --> 00:45:41.712 I st- I studied roots. 00:45:42.312 --> 00:45:49.082 And that summer I'm really glad I did because, you know, the … I just learned a lot. 00:45:49.522 --> 00:45:55.982 And then when words come up now just, you know, off the cuff, I'm just much more comfortable. 00:45:56.202 --> 00:46:03.762 I can stop now, you know, and discuss, you know, parts of a word like I couldn't, you know, 10, 15 years ago. 00:46:04.242 --> 00:46:13.022 So some of it is just, you know, going online, what are the most common prefixes, what are the most common roots, a- and starting to just do a little self-study. 00:46:14.062 --> 00:46:24.382 Gene: You know, you are, in addition to just in a broad sense the vocabulary guy, also so much work in morphology, which we did not talk about much at all. 00:46:24.832 --> 00:46:24.842 Yeah. 00:46:24.862 --> 00:46:26.662 We did not talk about much at all. 00:46:26.782 --> 00:46:39.043 So in a- again, in addition to your work, which they have access to and we'll put it in the show notes, you know, where they could contact you what should- a teacher think about morphology? 00:46:39.523 --> 00:46:42.113 Should they sh- if they're intimidated by it- Yeah 00:46:42.173 --> 00:46:45.003 what, a- any suggestions for that? 00:46:45.603 --> 00:46:46.164 Sean: Definitely. 00:46:46.324 --> 00:46:49.324 I'm a big believer in word sums and word matrices. 00:46:49.963 --> 00:46:53.195 So, you know, you can go online and look those up. 00:46:53.314 --> 00:46:56.974 You know, so now I'm pretty good at creating those on my own. 00:46:57.084 --> 00:47:02.435 So it's a little bit, it's a, it- it's a little bit, you know, there's a little bit of work learning how to create those on your own. 00:47:02.456 --> 00:47:11.185 There, there is we could put in the show notes there is a website which it's called Mini Matrix Maker, Neil Ramsden, where you can make those on your own. 00:47:11.764 --> 00:47:28.407 But br- having kids look at a matrix and seeing prefixes like- Thinking about, like, the matrix like using the word cult, you know, then you have like a suffix U-R-E, culture. 00:47:28.767 --> 00:47:44.427 So they see these word parts in a matrix, and kids are putting those words in word sums where they're actually, "Okay, prefix plus the base or the root, plus the suffix," and then they're writing the whole word, and they're really playing with words there. 00:47:44.467 --> 00:47:48.007 "Oh, is this a real word?" And then teachers discussing. 00:47:48.067 --> 00:47:55.377 Learning more about word sums and morphology matrices I … Definitely worth your time, for sure. 00:47:55.477 --> 00:48:02.867 Gene: You know, the other thing that the way you talk about it, I could also see a lot of these activities like as sponge activities. 00:48:03.607 --> 00:48:07.967 You're lined up at the door, and, you know, you're asking these questions, you know? 00:48:08.087 --> 00:48:09.347 Turn to your partner, you know. 00:48:09.417 --> 00:48:11.637 The the kid that was frightened on the … What was the word? 00:48:11.687 --> 00:48:13.367 The kid that was frightened to go on stage. 00:48:13.807 --> 00:48:14.117 It was, 00:48:14.197 --> 00:48:15.067 Sean: Oh, trepidation. 00:48:15.107 --> 00:48:16.027 Gene: Trepidation. 00:48:16.087 --> 00:48:17.187 You know, trepidation. 00:48:17.247 --> 00:48:19.467 H- "Oh, we're having hamburgers today at lunch. 00:48:19.537 --> 00:48:21.907 Anybody have any trepidation about eating lunch?" 00:48:22.387 --> 00:48:26.907 Sean: So, and the fun part of it is sometimes, like, you just have these moments. 00:48:26.947 --> 00:48:29.087 Like, I just wrote about this just yesterday. 00:48:29.137 --> 00:48:39.987 So I had a moment where a, one of the a student l- gave me a bl- I kinda commandeered this student's pen, and I've had it for, like, the last two months, and I always lose my pens. 00:48:40.007 --> 00:48:40.617 This is the first one. 00:48:40.647 --> 00:48:41.887 It has, like, a big hand on it. 00:48:42.347 --> 00:48:43.367 I love this pen. 00:48:43.747 --> 00:48:50.947 Well, the other day I'm writing down under the document camera, and it

runs out of ink, and I, like, I really played it up. 00:48:51.027 --> 00:48:56.227 Like, I was just so distraught, and I didn't like- I paused. 00:48:56.267 --> 00:48:59.587 Like, there was, like, silence, and the kids kind of were, like, chuckling. 00:48:59.627 --> 00:49:06.587 But then the kids started playing 'cause, like, they know, like, like, we're all kinda word nerds now, and literally one of … The first kid goes, "Mr. 00:49:06.817 --> 00:49:15.817 Morrissey, you look a bit distraught." And I, like, kinda nod, and then w- the other one, one student shouts out, "Oh, he's solemn." And one other student's like- 00:49:16.257 --> 00:49:29.367 "He's feeling melancholy." So I'm, like, getting, like, giddy here, and one from the back is like, "He's almost despondent." So, and that's just, like, they- just, like, natural. 00:49:29.427 --> 00:49:29.437 Yeah. 00:49:29.528 --> 00:49:30.488 Just so much fun. 00:49:30.668 --> 00:49:39.288 And then w- like, a- at the end there, you know, one kid ca- one of my students came up, gave me a pat on the back, and I'm like, and I'm just like, "Oh, thank you for being so compassionate." 00:49:39.348 --> 00:49:52.097 And it ended with one of my students took their little, like, car- pen cartridge out of their pen and held it up and like, "We can transplant this, Mr. Morrissey." So, yeah. 00:49:52.328 --> 00:49:57.028 It just, like, those are the moments where, like, ooh, the whole class is, like, on board. 00:49:57.228 --> 00:49:57.408 Gene: Yeah. 00:49:57.648 --> 00:49:57.788 No. 00:49:57.938 --> 00:49:57.948 Yeah. 00:49:58.018 --> 00:49:58.478 That's great. 00:49:58.538 --> 00:50:00.058 Sean, I could talk to you all day about this. 00:50:00.658 --> 00:50:01.738 You have any questions for me? 00:50:02.798 --> 00:50:08.288 Sean: You know, like, thinking about … Yeah a couple. 00:50:08.758 --> 00:50:33.418 Like, when we … You wrote y- kind of the what your books are, and we want like … I have so much collaboration, like, on, on X, which, like, professionally, I think that kinda saved me, where it seems like it's really hard for schools still collaborating, like, even for new teachers to be, like, coming up to veteran teachers, asking questions and that. 00:50:33.917 --> 00:50:36.857 it still seems like we're not quite there yet. 00:50:37.317 --> 00:50:40.397 And, you know, some schools don't have coaching models. 00:50:40.557 --> 00:50:50.957 How do we kinda break that, where people feel comfortable, like, trying to learn from others outside of maybe, like, Twitter, outside of X? 00:50:51.637 --> 00:50:54.197 Gene: Well, man, you asked a big question. 00:50:54.217 --> 00:50:54.657 It's a loaded 00:50:54.717 --> 00:50:55.217 Sean: question, yeah. 00:50:55.277 --> 00:50:55.997 Gene: It's a big question. 00:50:56.057 --> 00:51:03.447 I'm gonna give you a small answer, and it is something that is so common that I think you're gonna recognize it. 00:51:03.807 --> 00:51:09.187 And your original question had to do about being able to collaborate, coming together to talk about things. 00:51:09.837 --> 00:51:09.847 Yeah. 00:51:09.907 --> 00:51:13.527 And gosh, it's gonna get back to some vocabulary. 00:51:13.957 --> 00:51:19.107 And that is there needs to be a shared vocabulary about instruction. 00:51:19.687 --> 00:51:32.807 Just like I went, kept going back and asking you to clarify what you're doing with regards to explicit instruction there is no agreement about a lot of the things we do about instruction. 00:51:33.067 --> 00:51:33.387 Sean: Mm-hmm. 00:51:33.547 --> 00:51:43.707 Gene: You, if you're on X, you know, and you mention something about "Oh, this is what I do for retrieval," sure enough, somebody's gonna say, "Well, that's not retrieval, That's not it. 00:51:43.747 --> 00:51:45.017 That's a lethal mutation. 00:51:45.047 --> 00:51:55.217 And then he says, "Well, what about this? What about that?" And so I think one of the first things when we ever work with a district is let's come up with a shared vocabulary. 00:51:55.677 --> 00:51:56.177 Sean: Mm-hmm. 00:51:56.247 --> 00:52:00.366 Gene: And it's not a shared vocabulary … Gosh, it goes right back to what you're talking about, Sean. 00:52:00.687 --> 00:52:07.287 It's not a shared vocabulary of, "Okay, here are some potential definitions. Do we agree on the definition?" No. 00:52:07.707 --> 00:52:09.087 What does it look like in action? 00:52:09.187 --> 00:52:10.987 What does it look like operationalized? 00:52:11.287 --> 00:52:14.877 Can we distinguish between this and this given the situation? 00:52:15.567 --> 00:52:15.817 Mm-hmm. 00:52:15.857 --> 00:52:17.867 So it takes … That that's the first step. 00:52:18.617 --> 00:52:20.666 Otherwise, you cannot communicate. 00:52:21.417 --> 00:52:23.737 Another thing that you said before, it's complicated. 00:52:23.837 --> 00:52:25.086 Teaching is complicated. 00:52:25.597 --> 00:52:40.277 And so there are all of these different moments that we have to name somehow- Yeah … and agree and agree on it because you could have a grade level meeting, and you could be talking about things and say, "We're gonna do explicit instruction." 00:52:41.017 --> 00:52:56.737 And, "Okay, great, that sounds great." You do what you just described, and somebody does, "Well, I'm gonna have the kids look them up in the dictionary, and then we're gonna talk about it." So, that, that's the first thing, agree on a some vocabulary, but not just on the words. 00:52:56.997 --> 00:52:58.617 Agree on what it looks like. 00:52:58.997 --> 00:52:59.297 Sean: Mm-hmm. 00:52:59.417 --> 00:53:02.297 Gene: And s- and so now we can talk about it. 00:53:02.457 --> 00:53:05.757 If you don't, then the, you just wasted your time. 00:53:05.837 --> 00:53:06.137 Sean: Yeah. 00:53:06.237 --> 00:53:11.777 Gene: Now, how you get to that is the question, and that takes some professional development. 00:53:12.657 --> 00:53:25.947 It takes some

coaching because the other thing about professional development, if you just talked about this, that we need a shared vocabulary a real common thing that teachers will say, "Well, we already do that." 00:53:26.707 --> 00:53:26.827 Yeah. 00:53:26.887 --> 00:53:28.847 We already, we al- we already do retrieval. 00:53:28.887 --> 00:53:40.195 We already do this." And so, if you don't have an opportunity to be observed- to check that then we really don't know what's going on. 00:53:40.355 --> 00:53:50.575 And that gets back to, you know, eventually down the road, what we need is to Sean to be able to come into Gene's class and see what I'm doing, and vice versa. 00:53:50.655 --> 00:53:51.095 Sean: Yeah. 00:53:51.195 --> 00:54:07.085 Gene: And then, and now we can talk about it, because we could talk about, "Oh, this is where I'm doing the explicit instruction. This is where I'm doing the practice, e- et cetera, et cetera." But we, there's just too many assumptions that we know what the other person is talking about. 00:54:07.865 --> 00:54:07.895 Right. 00:54:07.955 --> 00:54:13.945 And that was one of the reasons that I wanted in my questions today, is to clarify some of those things. 00:54:14.275 --> 00:54:23.055 Because it's easy to look at your four things that you do, say, "I do that. I do that." You know, maybe you call it that, but it's not the same, it's not the same thing. 00:54:23.775 --> 00:54:23.955 Sean: Yeah. 00:54:24.195 --> 00:54:32.095 And I think v- videotaping, and I've just started to do this in the last year or so, v- videotaping lessons is a game changer. 00:54:33.215 --> 00:54:33.395 You know? 00:54:33.615 --> 00:54:45.645 So, 'cause I think it, it helps others, like, "Oh, that's what it looks like." And it also like, like when you're reflecting on y- like your own, you know, watching yourself it's a little humbling. 00:54:45.665 --> 00:54:51.385 You're, you know, like, "Oh, boy, that student wasn't paying attention for 10 whole minutes, and I didn't- 00:54:51.875 --> 00:54:54.725 like, like, and like y- you're a veteran teacher. 00:54:54.765 --> 00:54:59.085 It's like, oh, and I didn't even notice that because teaching's hard. 00:54:59.175 --> 00:55:06.885 You're, there's- Yeah … so much involved and, you know, videotaping is something that I'm going to keep doing as much as possible. 00:55:07.505 --> 00:55:18.195 Gene: you know, if you have status as a teacher on staff, and you're doing that and sharing that's important because a lot of teachers are afraid to do that for whatever reason. 00:55:18.275 --> 00:55:18.355 Yeah. 00:55:18.995 --> 00:55:23.365 And so I, I think that's important that they know you're doing that, and that you're welcome to look. 00:55:24.025 --> 00:55:24.115 Sean: Yeah. 00:55:24.115 --> 00:55:24.995 Gene: You know, and talk. 00:55:25.475 --> 00:55:37.184 In fact if I was a coach at your site, I might even suggest to you, Sean, let anybody who wants to take a look at your lesson, but do it with them. 00:55:37.785 --> 00:55:37.815 Mm-hmm. 00:55:37.895 --> 00:55:39.265 So you can point out what you did. 00:55:39.865 --> 00:55:43.385 You know, they didn't know that it took you six weeks to develop that routine. 00:55:44.305 --> 00:55:44.414 Yeah. 00:55:44.485 --> 00:55:47.815 You know, they say, "I'm gonna go do it," and then it doesn't work, and then I you know. 00:55:48.515 --> 00:56:03.150 So, I just think that there is so much that a coach can do- to move things along more quickly to help develop that culture that you're talking about to work with other teachers, to be able to share everything and to be able to talk about it. 00:56:03.460 --> 00:56:15.995 And the reality is there is stuff that you've created, but without you talking about it, having a chance to discuss it- It's just gonna go over some people's heads Yeah So- 00:56:16.686 --> 00:56:17.037 Sean: yeah. 00:56:17.431 --> 00:56:19.831 Gene: Well, Sean, it has been a pleasure. 00:56:19.951 --> 00:56:23.211 I learned a lot, and I'm looking forward to seeing you. 00:56:23.411 --> 00:56:25.650 Just so folks know, this is gonna be out. 00:56:25.730 --> 00:56:34.729 You can- they can come see both of us in Atlanta, and then the following week in Houston at at ResearchEd, and I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. 00:56:35.110 --> 00:56:36.130 Sean: I am as well. 00:56:36.170 --> 00:56:36.770 I am as well. 00:56:37.650 --> 00:56:40.170 Gene: All right, so thank you, and we'll talk soon. 00:56:40.251 --> 00:56:40.970 Sean: Okay, great. 00:56:42.531 --> 00:56:45.171 Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:56:45.471 --> 00:56:51.041 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:56:51.731 --> 00:57:01.811 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:57:02.221 --> 00:57:02.651 Tesscg. 00:57:03.641 --> 00:57:19.011 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.