บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Elif Miskioglu | The Science of How to Build Engineering Intuition

specific malaria vectors is, I think, fascinating. 00:06:10.333 --> 00:06:20.492 And I mean, that was kind of why I, I, uh, went into the medical device area myself because I thought the body and anatomy and just life in general was, was fascinating. 00:06:21.223 --> 00:06:24.062 I've kind of been removed from that area a little bit, but that's okay. 00:06:24.322 --> 00:06:38.452 Um, so, uh, uh, uh, Elif, tell me a little bit about how you got into the, the field of, of studying, um, uh, how, uh, how we learn and, and what intuition is. 00:06:38.463 --> 00:06:43.132 Like, at, at what point did you realize that you were really interested in, in that area? 00:06:44.329 --> 00:06:46.910 I think there's a nugget of always being interested. 00:06:46.930 --> 00:07:13.550 I am the product of educators myself, and as I mentioned, I was really interested in becoming a, a psychologist earlier, so there was always this interest in understanding how people think that followed me in… I've been really lucky, very privileged that I've been able to follow my curiosity throughout my, my career in my undergraduate experience, my graduate experience, and now as a faculty. 00:07:14.389 --> 00:07:23.149 are really two things from my undergraduate experience, I think, that set the tone for this work though, and really stick with me as moments. 00:07:25.459 --> 00:07:43.420 th- one of them happened when I was Taking a course with students from another university, shout out to the University of Wisconsin, and it was a unit operations course that we were taking over the summer together. 00:07:43.420 --> 00:07:56.810 Unit operations is a core chemical engineering curricular course where we get first-hand experience with pilot plant size units, and we run them. 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:06.819 It's our-- For many of us in, in chemical engineering, for many students, it's their first opportunity to really work with equipment in physical space. 00:08:07.310 --> 00:08:15.000 And that was true for me and my fellow Iowa State University students in this summer program. 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:21.379 the students from the University of Wisconsin, they had a five-year program for their chemical engineering degree at the time. 00:08:21.379 --> 00:08:22.569 I don't know if that's still true. 00:08:23.019 --> 00:08:28.060 And they took other laboratory courses before coming into this course. 00:08:28.699 --> 00:08:35.039 And it was striking how different our ability to respond in the moment to the equipment was. 00:08:36.289 --> 00:08:58.009 I was very good and confident with running the data afterwards and doing the analysis and being able to point out data points that seemed like they were anomalies or being able to question the results from something that was outputting data. 00:08:58.850 --> 00:09:13.639 when it was actually in the moment, and particularly when something didn't function the way we expected it to in the equipment, that's when I noticed that myself the colleagues that

shared my education, we were a little slower to respond. 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:19.889 Uh, specifically, there was one instance where my lab partner and I had a tank that was gonna overflow. 00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:22.000 I can't remember what was in the tank. 00:09:22.350 --> 00:09:35.559 It must not have been too toxic'cause we weren't too panicked about it, but the other students in the room ran over and found some tubing, created a siphon we were standing. 00:09:35.649 --> 00:09:59.669 And I was very curious what it was in that moment we had very similar technical understandings of the processes on paper allowed them to respond and us to really just stare at the tank and think,"We have a problem. What, what do we do?" But not be able to move to action. 00:10:01.769 --> 00:10:04.899 That's one of two instances, as I mentioned. 00:10:04.899 --> 00:10:19.740 The second one came about in another class we were using a simulation software to model something, and the result just didn't make sense in physical space. 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:22.340 A few of us in the class noticed this. 00:10:23.610 --> 00:10:37.269 We brought it up with the professor, and in a really discouraging moment for a student who's pursuing curiosity, we were told, "If the simulation lets you do it, it's fine." And 00:10:38.072 --> 00:10:38.623 Oh, no. 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:40.029 Yeah, that hurt. 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:42.470 It still hurts thinking about that. 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:42.659 It 00:10:42.753 --> 00:10:43.403 Yeah 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:57.860 very disillusioning, it was very disheartening, and it stuck with me because it left me the question of, but what happens in the real world? 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:05.570 This thing can't be built, or if it is, it's gonna have serious problems with very big consequences. 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.440 The software is letting me design it, though. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:21.440 It's not telling me, "Hold up. Not possible." It's allowing me to move forward, and only a few of us in the class at least noticeably questioned it. 00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:26.960 Maybe other people had the question and didn't bring it forward, but only a few of us spoke up, seemed to notice. 00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:33.399 that made me wonder again, why didn't we all notice? 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:38.600 Why did some of us notice and some of us not, or some of us choose to speak and some of us not about this? 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:47.230 And what does that mean when we're relying so much on software tools, on simulation tools support our engineering? 00:11:48.090 --> 00:12:01.110 If the tools are allowing us to do things that aren't possible, w- where does… where do we come in, and what skills do we need to make sure that we're using it properly, I guess is a better way to phrase that. 00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:09.289 Those are the two instances I think that really set the stage the series of questions that have blossomed into the work I pursue now. 00:12:10.541 --> 00:12:16.770 It, it's such an important topic because like you said, as the tools get so good, so easy to use, right? 00:12:17.541 --> 00:12:27.051 It can be deceiving if you don't have a fundamental understanding of what the answer should be or at least the ballpark in which that answer should appear. 00:12:27.250 --> 00:12:29.591 So the intuition is, is critical. 00:12:30.110 --> 00:12:44.780 Let's start with, um, I, I think most of the people listening to this probably have a general sense of what intuition means, but is, is there a formal definition for intuition that you use in your work? 00:12:45.354 --> 00:12:46.634 Yeah, there is actually. 00:12:46.634 --> 00:12:58.033 That was part of the early work that we pursued was to formalize a definition that we can use as, as scholars continuing to study what engineering intuition is. 00:12:58.443 --> 00:13:24.724 So the definition that we published a couple years ago is that engineering intuition is a problem-solving skill used by expert engineering practitioners, specifically it's subconsciously leveraging prior experience to assess a situation or a solution or predict possible outcomes or paths forward. 00:14:05.274 --> 00:14:07.034 Okay, I'm so excited to talk about this. 00:14:07.065 --> 00:14:09.085 This, this is a fascinating subject. 00:14:09.435 --> 00:14:14.904 Some of the words that you just used, uh, subconscious specifically, seem very unscientific, right? 00:14:14.904 --> 00:14:19.475 Like, how is that a rigorous engineering problem-solving tool? 00:14:19.795 --> 00:14:22.615 I, I'm, I'm playing devil's advocate, of course, here. 00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:23.340 appreciate that. 00:14:23.379 --> 00:14:23.700 I hear 00:14:23.894 --> 00:14:26.065 S- so, so, so let's get into that. 00:14:26.105 --> 00:14:59.695 Um, I, I heard… I can't remember where or who I heard this from, but years ago, I heard from what was allegedly a credible source that intuition should be trusted when the intuiter is, uh, using his or her expertise w- within a field that, uh, he or she works in, and should not be trusted if it's an environment in which the intuiter does not really have any real experience or, or, or expertise. 00:15:00.555 --> 00:15:09.024 Is that generally true, or are there m- major exceptions that kind of, uh, falsify that, that hypothesis? 00:15:10.101 --> 00:15:11.132 Generally true. 00:15:11.976 --> 00:15:12.086 OK 00:15:12.282 --> 00:15:17.892 in the literature and as we're discussing intuition in this context, is a critical part of it. 00:15:17.961 --> 00:15:37.762 What-- Part of what started this journey was when myself and my colleagues were looking into how expertise is developed and models of expertise development and skill acquisition, and we kept seeing intuition as a defining characteristic of the expert, but intuition itself was never defined. 00:15:37.992 --> 00:15:46.882 Experts were defined as having intuition, and intuition was defined as a characteristic of an

expert. 00:15:47.822 --> 00:16:13.302 We really wanted to untangle that when we were pursuing our first line of work in this space, we've not so much untangled it, but further, would say, gone down the path of they do co-occur, and they are very tied. 00:16:15.002 --> 00:16:25.851 The, the comment that you shared is, is very important in that it really nicely captures the specificity of intuition. 00:16:26.622 --> 00:16:45.942 It really plays in the domains that we have expertise and knowledge in, and that's what differentiates it from guessing or something that is unscientific or unanalytical. 00:16:45.971 --> 00:16:59.042 It's that piece of experience and expertise that gives intuition the not always accuracy, the higher likelihood of accuracy, right? 00:16:59.132 --> 00:17:01.662 'Cause I don't wanna, I don't wanna say that intuition is always accurate. 00:17:02.351 --> 00:17:02.841 It's not. 00:17:02.851 --> 00:17:05.132 Just like our analyses are not always accurate. 00:17:06.531 --> 00:17:54.171 it is in our model that we developed supporting our definition lays out more deeply how it is deeply tied to the problem-solving that we've done in the past, number crunching that we've done in the past, all of those recognizable and Accepted, I'll say, engineering approaches to intuition, which does feel unscientific And the feeling behind that term is one of the things that I think that we've, we've also recognized is a reason people don't talk about it. 00:17:55.111 --> 00:18:02.171 Which not talking about intuition is inherently problematic because it's denying a reality of engineering practice. 00:18:02.871 --> 00:18:08.891 Every engineer we've spoken to says they do use it, but they don't wanna, they don't wanna talk about using it 00:18:09.714 --> 00:18:12.084 It's very difficult to quantify, right? 00:18:12.084 --> 00:18:17.694 And, and we engineers don't like talking about things we can't quantify or, or measure in some way. 00:18:18.084 --> 00:18:20.654 Um, okay, so a couple of questions come to mind. 00:18:20.865 --> 00:18:30.894 One is, how do we know if we are relying on good, sound intuition versus just guessing about something, even if it is within our area of expertise? 00:18:31.134 --> 00:18:33.774 And then the other question has just slipped my mind. 00:18:33.774 --> 00:18:34.664 It was a good one, though. 00:18:35.115 --> 00:18:40.484 Uh, let's, let's start with that one, and then I'll see if I can remember the second question I had, and we'll come back to that 00:18:40.683 --> 00:18:41.073 Yeah. 00:18:41.483 --> 00:18:44.243 I'm gonna, I'm gonna double down on that expertise piece. 00:18:45.173 --> 00:19:05.535 Expertise w- will… is the backbone of intuition and really does differentiate it from a guess The parameters might be different in a slightly new situation, but we're still relying on our expertise if it exists. 00:19:07.475 --> 00:19:24.415 simplified example is if I'm going to lunch with somebody I've never met, and I'm

s- I sit down and someone tells me, "Order for that person." I've… I know nothing about them, let's say, and I might make a guess. 00:19:24.515 --> 00:19:35.715 I might be using some information about generally what people like to eat in the geographic location I'm at, or what the restaurant serves, and what's known to be good there. 00:19:35.715 --> 00:19:37.925 But I know nothing about the person themselves. 00:19:38.545 --> 00:20:01.905 Whereas if I am making that same order for somebody that I do know well, somebody that I'm very close to, someone whose food allergies and preferences I know, someone whose breakfast order versus lunch order versus dinner order maybe I have experience with, I can use my intuition. 00:20:01.905 --> 00:20:21.235 I can exercise better judgment there to look at the menu and say, "They'll probably like this one." And that's a simplification, of course, but contextual expertise is, is important. 00:20:21.245 --> 00:20:36.705 So in that case, in both cases, maybe I'm familiar with what the restaurant serves, maybe I'm familiar with the geographic location, I'm familiar with a lot of standards and norms, but I don't have expertise in that specific domain, the person I'm ordering for 00:20:37.266 --> 00:20:37.596 Yeah. 00:20:37.826 --> 00:20:38.625 versus the other. 00:20:39.106 --> 00:20:40.416 Yeah, that's a good example. 00:20:40.686 --> 00:20:44.807 Um, a couple of, of phrases are coming to mind as we're talking about this. 00:20:44.807 --> 00:20:47.286 One, I heard you use already, context. 00:20:47.326 --> 00:20:51.356 Context is, it seems like is, is critical as far as intuition goes. 00:20:51.656 --> 00:20:57.156 And then the other one is, uh, we haven't explicitly called it out, but pattern recognition. 00:20:57.516 --> 00:21:02.226 It almost seems like pattern recognition could be a synonym for intuition, right? 00:21:02.276 --> 00:21:07.416 Over, over years, an expert, like you said, solves problems, right? 00:21:07.506 --> 00:21:24.006 Sees numbers, has experiences, and it's like, it's almost like all of those experiences program, uh, his or her operating system so that subconsciously he, uh, he or she can, can, can, uh, get very good at, at pattern recognition. 00:21:24.057 --> 00:21:26.246 And, and we call that intuition. 00:21:26.596 --> 00:21:31.236 Is that an accurate way to talk about that, or am I missing something major here? 00:21:31.531 --> 00:21:36.291 Intuition in some spaces is conceptualized as pattern recognition. 00:21:36.351 --> 00:21:38.981 I would say that's one of the ways. 00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:39.590 Okay 00:21:39.721 --> 00:21:46.731 only way, and it's, it's really interesting to, to look at how different disciplines conceptualize intuition. 00:21:47.131 --> 00:22:55.151 So in, in the medical field, there is some discussion of scripts, is similar to pattern recognition, where you learn to look for cues and then a script starts subconsciously running in the provider's brain about what

to do next, where to go, what to… And they explicitly call these scripts in, in that space. 00:22:55.421 --> 00:23:04.761 So pattern recognition is definitely a, piece of it and one, one way intuition is developed and exercised 00:23:05.704 --> 00:23:06.184 Okay. 00:23:06.414 --> 00:23:10.444 What are some of the other pillars of, of intuition? 00:23:10.444 --> 00:23:14.424 If pattern recognition is one, what are, what are some of the others? 00:23:17.337 --> 00:23:25.257 You see me pause because that's an ongoing question, but some of the others, one main other one I would say is metacognition. 00:23:25.287 --> 00:23:53.957 It's not one that we've had a chance to study deeply, there is a… To be able to exercise intuition well and effectively, there is ability, there is a necessity to know what you know and what you don't know, and when to use intuitive answer that may arise and when to recognize that what maybe you thought was intuition was a guess. 00:23:54.777 --> 00:24:00.117 so that's something that I would say is a, it's a strong pillar of it, metacognition and sorting intuition 00:24:01.034 --> 00:24:04.114 How, let's talk a little bit more about metacognition. 00:24:04.144 --> 00:24:05.464 How, how is that defined? 00:24:05.474 --> 00:24:06.594 That could be a big word. 00:24:06.713 --> 00:24:07.213 Yes 00:24:07.294 --> 00:24:09.654 does metacognition really mean? 00:24:10.105 --> 00:24:15.675 In short, it's the awareness of what you know versus what you don't know. 00:24:15.715 --> 00:24:27.245 It's, it's a… And so in this space, it's an awareness of the breadth and depth of your expertise and also the boundaries of your expertise when we're trying to bring it back to intuition 00:24:27.806 --> 00:24:28.196 Okay. 00:24:28.316 --> 00:24:28.726 Okay. 00:24:29.156 --> 00:24:34.286 Um, so if I'm an engineer listening to this, I, I've picked up a few things already. 00:24:34.546 --> 00:24:36.826 Uh, one is that context is very important. 00:24:37.056 --> 00:24:48.366 If I'm operating in an environment in which I'm an expert, then I, I can be more likely to trust my intuition, uh, than if I'm in an environment in which I'm not an expert. 00:24:48.806 --> 00:24:58.486 Uh, what, what are there, and if there are, what are some of the ways that engineers can intentionally go about developing this intuition? 00:24:58.516 --> 00:25:04.466 It… Does it really just come down to, like, time, or are, are there ways to shortcut this at all? 00:25:05.747 --> 00:25:07.887 We are hoping to find ways to shortcut it. 00:25:07.887 --> 00:25:11.207 That's part of the ongoing questions and the work that we're doing. 00:25:12.607 --> 00:25:28.907 There is definitely a time component, and it's really interesting 'cause a lot of different disciplines and fields have fallen into the same recognition of time before they consider somebody to have achieved the higher levels of expertise in their field. 00:25:29.557 --> 00:25:40.257 If we think about, for example, in medical school, going to, to medical school, but then you go to residency, and then if you're gonna specialize further, you do fellowship. 00:25:41.057 --> 00:25:51.607 just learned that to become a master cheesemaker in the state of Wisconsin, you first need to be a licensed cheesemaker for 10 years. 00:25:52.077 --> 00:26:06.457 And the number that we use in, in my work that is also in additional literature is six years minimum, 10 years kind of that higher, higher low end of when expertise is developed. 00:26:07.107 --> 00:26:12.227 And so past 10 years, we're, we're fairly confident that someone has expertise in the area. 00:26:13.157 --> 00:26:19.607 to 10 years, we're quite confident, but there might be some, some variance there. 00:26:20.107 --> 00:26:44.717 And it's really interesting that many disciplines have fallen in that same six to 10 of considering that's the amount of time we need for someone to be out there working in this thing and have enough under their belts to, to move forward to the next stage of, of whatever that profession So time is important. 00:26:44.727 --> 00:26:45.917 The experience is important. 00:26:45.927 --> 00:26:48.407 The doing is important. 00:26:49.127 --> 00:27:00.447 Actually being out, if it's in the field, running the experiments yourself, cal- doing the calculations yourself, actually having the tangible experiences with whatever the thing is you're trying to develop expertise in. 00:27:01.287 --> 00:27:21.737 We do believe and we do hope that there are ways to support it because we wanna make this skill more accessible, more easily developed, support people when they are reacting to new contacts or new demand for expertise. 00:27:21.737 --> 00:27:36.037 We live in a world where we are constantly shifting in what the needs of our society are, and there are new fields of expertise that are popping up regularly that is, is happening at a faster and faster rate. 00:27:36.057 --> 00:27:42.067 So being able to build a workforce that can adapt to that, all those things are, are reasons we're pursuing this work. 00:27:42.417 --> 00:28:05.385 To actually go back to answer the question, having those experiences, having a space to fail, to get it wrong, hopefully without Any truly devastating consequences, 'cause in engineering there can be, of course. 00:28:06.065 --> 00:28:13.175 To learn from that and to try again, that's also really important. 00:28:13.185 --> 00:28:20.415 We've seen… And most, most people recognize, most people resonate with learning from failure. 00:28:20.475 --> 00:28:25.395 Learning from failure with us more deeply than learning from success. 00:28:25.445 --> 00:28:30.865 We remember shots we missed, the questions we got wrong more deeply than the ones that we got right. 00:28:31.475 --> 00:28:59.725 And we have seen that in environments where people have support and they're given space to try and given space to be wrong, but also supported in a way that they know nothing catastrophic

is really gonna happen, see how the consequences of they're doing plays out. 00:28:59.805 --> 00:29:09.055 That's a good space for building for building understanding the context you're trying to develop 00:29:09.268 --> 00:29:24.908 I'm an engineer who works in a place where there is robust psychological safety, I am more likely to develop intuition quicker than if the environment is toxic and I feel psychologically unsafe there 00:29:25.985 --> 00:29:34.605 I don't have the full evidence to support that yet, but I would venture from what I do know and what I've seen in my research that that is true, yeah. 00:29:34.605 --> 00:29:34.975 And that's 00:29:35.260 --> 00:29:35.710 OK 00:29:35.785 --> 00:29:39.865 to more I'm sp- I'm speaking like, like a scholar, right? 00:29:39.905 --> 00:29:42.335 I need my, my claim and then my citation evidence. 00:29:42.345 --> 00:29:50.225 So that is a claim that I am, I'm working on getting the full support for, but yes, we have reasons to believe that that is true 00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:51.370 Got it. 00:29:51.410 --> 00:29:52.030 Interesting. 00:29:52.360 --> 00:29:56.340 Um, I'm also thinking about this in the context of, of hiring, right? 00:29:56.340 --> 00:30:12.170 If I'm an engineering manager, you mentioned that six to 10 year kind of sweet spot, and, uh, maybe I don't have unlimited funds to, to make my next hire, but I need to hire someone who can hit the ground running and, and maybe even lead some other even younger engineers. 00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:33.810 It sounds like that, like roughly six-ish year, uh, number of, of years of experience is a pretty good place to start because they'll, they'll have enough intuition to make good engineering judgment, but they're not gonna be so senior that, you know, they're commanding top dollar at that point, uh, to be hired. 00:30:33.860 --> 00:30:39.140 So that, that's an interesting point for, uh, engineering leaders who are in hiring positions. 00:30:39.581 --> 00:30:57.431 If they're a good domain match is the caveat there, because if they are not a good domain match, then you might be running across issues, 'cause that six to 10 years won't hold in the same way. 00:30:57.674 --> 00:30:58.974 Right, right 00:30:59.251 --> 00:31:05.501 the risk of thinking they're a good domain match, individuals who think they're a good domain match because their metacognition isn't quite 00:31:05.896 --> 00:31:06.416 Hmm. 00:31:06.841 --> 00:31:07.671 as developed. 00:31:07.741 --> 00:31:14.399 And then Not being able to move into that role as seamlessly as predicted 00:31:15.456 --> 00:31:32.880 So if, if I don't have good metacognition and I, I'm not really aware of what I do and don't know, I might just run the risk of assuming I know a lot more than I do and trusting my, my gut and just being wrong more often than I'm right. 00:31:33.580 --> 00:31:44.780 What is a way that an engineer that maybe doesn't know how good his or her metacognition is, uh, how, how can we answer that for ourselves? 00:31:44.790 --> 00:31:51.190 How can we determine if, yes, um, uh, I, I, I, I do have the right level of experience? 00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:59.390 Does it come down to just asking others who have a lot more experience than you and saying, "Rate me," in some way? 00:32:00.881 --> 00:32:14.481 If we're in a supportive, that, that workplace that has psychological safety, hopefully there is a mentor, a coach, a champion who individuals can have that conversation with, 'cause it can be really difficult. 00:32:14.501 --> 00:32:25.681 If that is not something that educational program has prepared you to assess on your own you get into the workforce, that can be very challenging. 00:32:25.761 --> 00:32:39.851 And different people react Some people, their metacognition leads them to underrate themselves, to, to undersell themselves, while others to over. 00:32:40.741 --> 00:32:53.891 we can have that lack of metacognition play in, in two ways: people who are under-confident when they should be more confident, and those who are over-confident as, as well. 00:32:54.271 --> 00:33:12.331 So the ideal would be a, a trusted mentor, a coach, someone in that space who does have, have more experience and can be a sounding board and help assess whether we're on the right track, where we… It's, there's an element of, like, a performance review to it, right? 00:33:12.331 --> 00:33:35.111 If we are in a, in ex- a psychologically safe space where we have a, hopefully, supportive manager who's having an honest conversation on areas of improvement with us, a performance review can serve as a space, for example, where we get a chance to check our own metacognition as well, if the review aligns with what we of how we're doing 00:33:36.988 --> 00:33:39.698 Got a question that's gonna sound odd at face value maybe. 00:33:39.758 --> 00:33:41.628 I'm, I'm curious if you've heard about this. 00:33:41.628 --> 00:33:48.488 You probably have because you're-- been researching it, it in the space, but, uh, are you familiar with… And this might be, like, super old. 00:33:48.488 --> 00:33:58.958 There's probably technology at this point that does this, but from what I've heard, maybe it's apocryphal, but I think it's true, there was a time when, uh, there was a thing called sexing chickens. 00:33:59.318 --> 00:34:00.258 Have you heard about this? 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:00.760 угу 00:34:01.088 --> 00:34:01.448 Yeah? 00:34:01.488 --> 00:34:01.888 Okay. 00:34:02.488 --> 00:34:05.288 And it would require intuition, right? 00:34:05.598 --> 00:34:15.469 Like apparently, I don't know, I've never worked on a farm, but apparently ch- uh, male and female chickens can look very, very similar, and it can be difficult to tell them apart. 00:34:15.958 --> 00:34:23.469 And so, uh, I don't even know what industry it was in, but anyway, there was a need to, to figure out is this a, a male or a female chicken. 00:34:23.469 --> 00:34:56.998 And so they'd have people who, who

just, like, looked at pictures over and over, over and over, and after a certain point of time, they became, uh, apparently experts in this area and, and they could just tell by intuition if-- they couldn't consciously articulate why they knew, but they, they would be able to say, "Okay, that's female, that's male, that's male, that's male, that's female." Um, uh, uh, how, uh… I- is it the same, um, uh, neurological pathway that, that is, that's built over time that leads to that kind of intuition as the engineering intuition that we're talking about? 00:35:00.855 --> 00:35:24.065 Neurological pathways are complex, and I'm gonna start by saying I'm, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I was actually having a really interesting discussion with someone is serving as, as an educational psychologist and, and supporting our work, and they were actually asking us about whether two different things we were talking about were the same cognitive pathway or not. 00:35:24.885 --> 00:35:49.589 And there are so many pathways, so what I would say is one of the, the… In a similar way to that pattern recognition that we were discussing earlier, there's a I don't know why, I just, when you s- when you started talking about the chickens, I thought about watermelon and people who can pick up a watermelon and say, "Yeah, this is a good one." 00:35:50.204 --> 00:35:52.384 Probably your, your intuition is what it was. 00:35:54.369 --> 00:36:01.509 and, and so it's… You know, they always say the h- the watermelon should be heavy for its size, and it should have this type of spot on it. 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.849 But what does it mean to be heavy for its size? 00:36:04.609 --> 00:36:12.399 I mean, the, the size of something in, in three dimensions doesn't correlate to its weight. 00:36:12.439 --> 00:36:15.109 I don't know the dens- the average density of a watermelon. 00:36:15.616 --> 00:36:16.006 Ja 00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:18.899 and so it's… I would say it's a similar thing, though. 00:36:18.899 --> 00:36:38.769 There are people who, because they really, they work with a lot of watermelon, they, they know what it means to be heavy for its size, and so they can pick up a watermelon and say, "Yeah, is a good one," versus who are just hoping when they pick up the watermelon. 00:36:38.769 --> 00:36:40.399 And there's nothing disappointing like a, 00:36:41.494 --> 00:36:43.144 Like a bad watermelon, yeah. 00:36:44.634 --> 00:36:46.764 Okay, so, um, pro tips. 00:36:46.804 --> 00:36:49.234 How do engineers use intuition? 00:36:49.244 --> 00:36:58.884 Do, do you have any, uh, any piece of, pieces of advice that engineers can start using in their work right away to, to leverage intuition? 00:37:02.745 --> 00:37:12.065 That's a con- I would say that's gonna depend on the context,'cause there are some people who I would say maybe hold off, stop, pause, and don't, maybe don't use your intuition yet. 00:37:12.672 --> 00:37:16.032 Those who are sub six years in some specific domain. 00:37:16.145 --> 00:37:16.915 Yeah, so 00:37:17.082 --> 00:37:17.322 Yeah 00:37:17.545 --> 00:37:38.091 if we are in that domain, I think something that I would encourage engineers to do is to take a moment as they're moving through,'cause they are using intuition. 00:37:38.581 --> 00:37:41.591 It's something that in our research has come up time and time again. 00:37:41.591 --> 00:37:42.601 They're, they're using it. 00:37:43.461 --> 00:37:57.453 And to bring a conscious moment to that, which sounds maybe Counterproductive since intuition is, is subconscious. 00:37:58.523 --> 00:38:23.833 I think the more we can recognize that we're using it and bring a legitimacy to its existence and its use in the engineering space, I think the more open we can discuss it and the more we can have productive conversations around how do we use it, how do we build it, how do we transfer it when we're moving from one domain to another? 00:38:23.843 --> 00:38:25.313 Is it transferable at all? 00:38:26.083 --> 00:38:39.443 And so that's the, the one thing that I would say is asking engineers to take a pause and to try to recognize when they are using it, and use that feedback of, of when you are. 00:38:39.463 --> 00:38:40.033 Did it go well? 00:38:40.033 --> 00:38:40.993 Did it not go well? 00:38:41.323 --> 00:38:43.813 Was I actually in my domain expertise area? 00:38:43.843 --> 00:38:45.553 Was I outside of it? 00:38:47.148 --> 00:38:50.058 Okay, a couple of thoughts just came to me while you were speaking. 00:38:50.068 --> 00:39:01.568 One is, um, I wonder if you have ever studied the effect that meditation has on intuition because you're talking about, uh, metacognition, right? 00:39:01.618 --> 00:39:03.509 Understanding what you know, what you don't know. 00:39:03.738 --> 00:39:06.268 Meditation is basically thinking about your thinking. 00:39:06.498 --> 00:39:12.198 So it, it seems like there's some kind of connection or correlation there. 00:39:12.528 --> 00:39:17.368 And then, um, the other thing… Darn, I'm having a hard time keeping track of my, my second thoughts today. 00:39:17.838 --> 00:39:19.158 Um, let's see. 00:39:19.158 --> 00:39:23.518 There was, uh, meditation and… Darn. 00:39:24.858 --> 00:39:25.768 It'll come back to me. 00:39:26.009 --> 00:39:35.838 I'm gonna have to, to remember the second thought I wanted to ask you about, but it was, it was something to do with, um, implementing meditation maybe. 00:39:36.188 --> 00:39:36.628 I don't know. 00:39:36.798 --> 00:39:42.388 I'm, I'm gonna guess based on your reaction that that is not an area that your team has researched yet 00:39:42.585 --> 00:39:56.055 No, but it, I wrote it down 'cause I, I make my students sometimes do a brief meditation in class when they are a little unfocused and, and just, and not with me. 00:39:56.135 --> 00:40:17.835 And I don't know what's out there about meditation and wheth- med- there, there's a good chance there is some research about meditation and metacognition,

and there is increasing public awareness of meditation and its support of our focus and our energy. 00:40:18.645 --> 00:40:21.525 so those things could definitely play together. 00:40:21.625 --> 00:40:32.745 And, and so, yeah, you saw me write it down and a little bit 'cause I was just thinking about when my students are groaning at me because I'm making them for a minute. 00:40:33.792 --> 00:40:36.992 You're just helping them accelerate development of their intuition. 00:40:37.123 --> 00:40:37.643 I'm trying. 00:40:37.783 --> 00:40:38.663 I'm trying, yes. 00:40:39.222 --> 00:40:41.122 I-- Okay, I did remember the second thing. 00:40:41.122 --> 00:40:57.332 So, uh, a friend of mine, Jake, said to me once, he said, uh, in fact, it may have been on the podcast, he said, "We don't grow by experience. We grow based on reflecting on our experience," which also seems kind of like meditation-esque. 00:40:57.642 --> 00:41:03.902 Um, i-is that per-perhaps a way to accelerate the development of our intuition? 00:41:03.913 --> 00:41:20.732 Not just going through the experience, but at the end of the day, reflecting on what worked, what didn't work, and I wonder if that, like, consolidates or, uh, a-accelerates the development of tho-those cognitive pathways that you were talking about. 00:41:21.177 --> 00:41:21.577 Yeah. 00:41:21.577 --> 00:41:54.747 So going back to what I was saying earlier, that I would, I would encourage engineers and to, when they're using their intuition, to try to take a moment to recognize they're using it, and then to think about, to assess what is happening from that point, how it went, what they learned, and that really is reflection And what I think that does is elevates what is happening often subconsciously to the conscious realm and sure that it's happening. 00:41:55.038 --> 00:42:03.177 'Cause those connections that we're building maybe in our sleep, that we're building, uh, in the background, sometimes they're happening, sometimes they're not happening. 00:42:03.187 --> 00:42:13.477 But if we're able to consciously do that reflection piece, then we can better guarantee that piece of information is filed where we want it to be, 00:42:14.048 --> 00:42:14.388 Yeah 00:42:14.617 --> 00:42:22.367 to maybe it enters the file, maybe the storage space seems to be too full and our brain lets it go that day, right? 00:42:23.528 --> 00:42:36.858 I, I've been doing, uh, Brazilian jujitsu for a number of years and, and I've, I've learned that if after a class I can take five minutes to just think about, all right, what did I learn today? 00:42:37.098 --> 00:42:38.938 What, what felt natural? 00:42:38.938 --> 00:42:41.198 What worked for, for me, my anatomy? 00:42:41.488 --> 00:42:46.198 Maybe it didn't work for everyone else's anatomy, but it, it worked for mine, and, and what didn't? 00:42:46.598 --> 00:42:59.138 Uh, it, it feels like my rate of improvement increases, and that might be another way of saying it, uh, my, my intuition, my,

my jujitsu intuition increases. 00:42:59.148 --> 00:43:01.488 So all of this stuff kind of ties together, right? 00:43:01.488 --> 00:43:05.398 It, it's, it's not specific to engineering necessarily or sexing chickens. 00:43:05.548 --> 00:43:07.978 It's, it's just life in general. 00:43:07.978 --> 00:43:16.998 This is, uh, a, a way to develop that intuition is reflecting and, and meditation and, you know, all these things that people talk about and have for millennia, I guess 00:43:17.259 --> 00:43:17.809 Absolutely. 00:43:17.819 --> 00:43:21.189 Intuition is gonna exist in any space that you can have expertise in. 00:43:21.189 --> 00:43:32.775 And so that's not just engineering, that's also jujitsu, that's also Anything that you're, you're doing in your, your life, 00:43:33.056 --> 00:43:33.416 Yeah. 00:43:33.485 --> 00:43:33.695 friend 00:43:33.846 --> 00:43:34.746 Music, art 00:43:34.905 --> 00:43:35.375 maker. 00:43:35.385 --> 00:43:40.255 They can… need something organized into a binder, like, they got you. 00:43:40.545 --> 00:43:43.065 They don't need to know anything about it, but they will make a great binder. 00:43:45.025 --> 00:44:07.935 and so it's definitely piece of it, and that I think the challenge, especially now, is we as a society, everyone feels very time scarce, and there's always something to also fill the time. 00:44:08.505 --> 00:44:34.826 So what we might have had as natural breaks and pauses where maybe years ago my students walking out of class would be talking about the class or walking to their next class thinking about the class, now a good number of them might be on their phone looking at something their way to their next class and not taking that moment of reflection. 00:44:34.835 --> 00:44:38.326 That's kind of what I was thinking, as you mentioned jujitsu. 00:44:38.385 --> 00:45:04.885 Uh, I'm a, I'm a former dancer and, yeah, sitting after dance class with my fellow dancers and talking about what we did well that day, what we really struggled with that day, who nailed a fouetté turn what they did differently that week, uh, was always a really productive conversation both for community building and for each of our skill development. 00:45:05.585 --> 00:45:23.165 And it's something that I… gone a bit on a tangent here, but I do in general feel a fear that we, we, we've lost moments of reflection that might have more natural because of boredom maybe in the past. 00:45:23.235 --> 00:45:23.795 Uh- 00:45:24.478 --> 00:45:24.858 Yeah. 00:45:25.509 --> 00:45:25.878 Yeah. 00:45:25.908 --> 00:45:38.588 Um, uh, we have a team member who, uh, went on vacation, I don't know, earlier this year or something, and he came back and told the rest of the team that he was so excited to sit and do nothing. 00:45:39.088 --> 00:45:44.078 And he had family members who would come up to him and be like, "Jason, are you okay? 00:45:44.868 --> 00:45:45.818 Do we need to talk? 00:45:45.898 --> 00:45:53.428 Is everything all right?" And he-- Because he would just be staring out the window, like, for, for hours, just sitting there doing nothing, staring, you know? 00:45:53.497 --> 00:45:53.997 Yeah 00:45:54.098 --> 00:46:26.878 was such a foreign thought to others that this could be enjoyable somehow that, you know, people are like, "Are you okay? Do we need to talk?" Uh, and, and I've noticed… I'm no, uh, meditation guru by any means, but I, I try to practice, uh, as often as I can, and I definitely know that, um, uh, not right away for sure, but, but after ten or twenty minutes, when my mind finally starts to calm down a little bit, there will be just interesting thoughts that just come. 00:46:27.098 --> 00:46:29.318 And this is a tangent, I think, to the intuition. 00:46:29.318 --> 00:46:38.998 But since we're talking about boredom and, and getting out of boredom, um, yeah, putting yourself in that state intentionally, just call it being bored, call it meditating, whatever you wanna do. 00:46:39.228 --> 00:46:45.738 But quieting your mind to the point where some of those subconscious thoughts can just start bubbling up to the surface, right? 00:46:45.738 --> 00:46:53.098 And, and some of those thoughts are really interesting and, and useful and never would have surfaced had you not taken the time to let them 00:46:53.763 --> 00:47:08.253 And it's interesting that you said, you know, after 10 minutes or more because it does… I only recently learned that you really need to, to do deep breathing exercises, for example, for at least three, preferably five minutes for your body to register the effect. 00:47:08.636 --> 00:47:09.256 Hmm. 00:47:09.773 --> 00:47:15.563 when someone says, for a minute," colloquially, I'm an engineer, I take that literally. 00:47:15.563 --> 00:47:17.103 One minute, 60 seconds, okay. 00:47:18.053 --> 00:47:23.713 But it turns out that it's actually, we maybe need to say breathe for three to five instead of breathe for a minute. 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:25.000 Fascinating 00:47:25.743 --> 00:47:52.071 it's those, those moments of Reflection, those moments of, of space, cognitive rest, of not having stimulation, do think are important for our, our processing our continued development and growth. 00:47:52.151 --> 00:47:53.811 We need, we need rest. 00:47:53.811 --> 00:48:04.531 We need rest in all of its forms, including from vast forms of stimulation that we have in, in the modern world, from the sound, from the sight 00:48:05.120 --> 00:48:05.410 Yeah. 00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:06.560 Yeah. 00:48:06.770 --> 00:48:18.790 You know, if you talk to someone about, uh, running a marathon, for example, and say, "If you just run flat out for what- what- as long as you can, there's gonna come a point at which you become fatigued, exhausted, and just fall over," right? 00:48:19.100 --> 00:48:27.540 No one's gonna argue with that, but we seem to have trouble believing the same thing is true from a, a mental, psychological standpoint, right? 00:48:27.860 --> 00:48:37.320 If you

just flat out, you know, think and engage in, um, mental activity without break, you're, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna fatigue. 00:48:37.370 --> 00:48:39.370 You're gonna have a, a breakdown perhaps 00:48:39.507 --> 00:48:40.197 Mm-hmm. 00:48:40.437 --> 00:48:48.807 And I was, I was just about to say, we have examples of that fatigue and it manifesting in, in public spaces. 00:48:48.807 --> 00:48:52.167 Many people have those, have personal connections to, to individuals who- Sure 00:48:52.608 --> 00:48:52.948 Yeah 00:48:53.307 --> 00:49:05.267 that, but yet it's not enough, uh, yet for, it seems like, widespread change 'cause it's convenient, it's addictive, it's entertaining, it's 00:49:05.736 --> 00:49:07.386 And, and we're a hustle society. 00:49:07.427 --> 00:49:08.597 We are a hustle society. 00:49:08.916 --> 00:49:09.326 Yeah. 00:49:09.596 --> 00:49:10.956 Pros and cons to that. 00:49:10.956 --> 00:49:11.676 Pros and cons. 00:49:11.676 --> 00:49:12.067 All right. 00:49:12.192 --> 00:49:12.821 To everything 00:49:13.547 --> 00:49:14.336 So let's see. 00:49:14.356 --> 00:49:16.666 Key takeaways from our discussion. 00:49:16.706 --> 00:49:21.116 Intuition, very valuable, can be considered an engineering tool. 00:49:21.636 --> 00:49:24.826 It's going to take time, no matter how you skin it. 00:49:25.246 --> 00:49:33.306 Um, a few ways to potentially accelerate that development is get a mentor and, and seek feedback. 00:49:33.317 --> 00:49:38.096 Am I at the point yet where I can safely rely on my intuition? 00:49:38.476 --> 00:49:47.856 Uh, perhaps some f- some form of practice, whatever you wanna call it, whether it's meditation or reflection or, or something else can, can perhaps accelerate it as well. 00:49:47.996 --> 00:49:53.496 What else, uh, would you add to that as far as just, uh, high-level takeaways from this discussion? 00:49:54.051 --> 00:50:05.301 I think I'll, I'll reemphasize the importance of metacognition and, and also bring up something that just we haven't talked about that's important, and that's flip side to that. 00:50:06.031 --> 00:50:24.571 Intuition as a characteristic of expertise is also… It also shares some of the potential pitfalls of expertise, and one of them is something called cognitive entrenchment, where are so sure of the next thing. 00:50:24.571 --> 00:50:39.051 You are so sure, because this is your area, that you don't notice maybe an anomaly in the current situation, and you move down a path without questioning it in the ways that we have and we should. 00:50:40.841 --> 00:51:15.751 this is something that is a reason in engineering to have teams that have different areas of expertise and different levels of experience because we want to always make sure that someone is asking important questions, that also there is someone with enough experience to move forward quickly or to notice when something is not right, when something, uh, some participants have called it, like, doesn't pass the smell test and, and might present a problem, right? 00:51:15.751 --> 00:51:19.491 We, we want all of those things coming into play. 00:51:19.541 --> 00:51:34.111 Without intuition working for us at the expert level, a lot of engineers have admitted we would have a hard time getting things done because there simply aren't enough hours in the day. 00:51:34.961 --> 00:51:49.750 But we wanna make sure also that we have diverse teams that are Questioning and engaging together to make sure that what we do is the best 00:51:50.208 --> 00:51:50.528 Yeah. 00:51:50.698 --> 00:51:51.128 Right. 00:51:52.378 --> 00:51:52.948 Excellent. 00:51:53.828 --> 00:51:58.068 Okay, Ayla, thank you so much for sharing your precious time with us today. 00:51:58.458 --> 00:52:00.788 Um, is there anyone that you're trying to meet? 00:52:00.798 --> 00:52:03.278 There are a lot of engineers listening to this right now. 00:52:03.748 --> 00:52:09.808 Uh, who, who would you like to meet or, or what, what can the audience potentially do for you? 00:52:10.497 --> 00:52:15.788 We are always looking for more engineers to speak with in our research. 00:52:16.277 --> 00:52:29.717 And so if anyone listening knows an engineer with six or more years of experience in industry in any discipline, I would l- love to connect and to be connected. 00:52:29.727 --> 00:52:35.977 We are always looking for more people to learn from and learn about 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:38.570 Fantastic. 00:52:38.600 --> 00:52:40.160 And how can they get in touch with you? 00:52:40.727 --> 00:52:42.487 Email is probably the easiest. 00:52:42.767 --> 00:52:55.327 Uh, my email address is eem, echo echo mary014@bucknell, B-U-C-K-N-E-L-L.edu 00:52:56.074 --> 00:52:56.754 Wonderful. 00:52:57.254 --> 00:53:09.625 All right, so all you six-year plus engineers out there, if you'd like to contribute to this noble area of science, please reach out to Elif, and hopefully you can all work together for the betterment of our entire community. 00:53:10.367 --> 00:53:10.767 Thank you 00:53:11.424 --> 00:53:11.855 All right. 00:53:12.024 --> 00:53:14.484 Elif, thank you again for being on the show. 00:53:14.484 --> 00:53:17.584 Is there anything else that you want to go over before we sign off? 00:53:19.875 --> 00:53:22.925 Academics, we can talk for a long time, so I'll, I'll leave it at that. 00:53:24.510 --> 00:53:25.180 All right, great. 00:53:25.180 --> 00:53:25.760 Well, thanks again 00:53:26.645 --> 00:53:27.065 Thank you