บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Chloe Benjamin, Under Story

s- try to steer around spoilers, because I don't wanna get into any of that. 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:36.659 Mm-hmm. 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:45.210 And yet I feel like there is gonna be a point where I'm gonna have to get into spoiler territory, and I'm going to announce it for people who haven't read the book yet. 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:45.610 Yeah. 00:02:45.669 --> 00:02:51.419 Because first of all, there's just things I want to talk about and want answered, and I'm not gonna have the chance to do it again. 00:02:51.430 --> 00:02:51.449 Yeah. 00:02:51.939 --> 00:02:52.330 And- 00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:53.050 I would love that. 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:55.509 I haven't been able to have a spoilery conversation- 00:02:56.060 --> 00:02:56.300 Okay 00:02:56.300 --> 00:02:56.629 yet. 00:02:57.210 --> 00:02:57.550 Okay. 00:02:57.569 --> 00:02:57.780 Yeah. 00:02:57.860 --> 00:03:02.800 So, so just for our listeners and for our viewers, this whole first part, we really are gonna steer around it. 00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:09.379 But then unfortunately, then the last part is gonna be for people who have already read the book or will have read the book by the time they see this or listen to it. 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:10.099 Okay. 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:10.280 Perfect. 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:10.680 Beautiful. 00:03:10.750 --> 00:03:25.780 So I have to tell you, one of my greatest joys of doing this podcast, besides the obvious, which is I get to sit down with so many amazing authors and their work, is something like this which truly, like, wrecked my brain through a lot of it. 00:03:27.138 --> 00:03:35.747 I would never get the chance to, sit with someone and ask them all of the questions regarding what were you thinking, where were you at, what is the genesis? 00:03:35.918 --> 00:03:52.115 And so I feel so fortunate to be able to do that with you today because this is that book, and it is that book- Hmm that makes you not only ask so many questions of yourself and of these characters, but also just, for me, the, the sheer mechanics of it and what- 00:03:52.425 --> 00:03:52.574 Hmm 00:03:52.625 --> 00:03:55.914 you put into it to get to where we are today. 00:03:56.164 --> 00:03:58.125 It took you seven years to write this, right? 00:03:58.335 --> 00:03:59.935 Yeah, it was about, um... 00:03:59.965 --> 00:04:10.444 It's, it's about seven years from idea to publication, so it was five years for the first draft, and then for the past two years or so, it's been editing and then getting ready for publication. 00:04:10.525 --> 00:04:19.615 And everything that you said is how I feel about being able to talk with people who have read it because I do keep work very close to my chest while I'm working on it. 00:04:19.625 --> 00:04:25.495 Like, I didn't share the concept, shared with very few readers during the writing process. 00:04:25.504 --> 00:04:31.785 So it's so exciting now that people like you have read it, and, like, I can pick your brain too. 00:04:31.785 --> 00:04:36.245 So I'm just thrilled to be able to talk about it with somebody who's as engaged as you are as a reader. 00:04:36.264 --> 00:04:36.274 Oh, 00:04:36.274 --> 00:04:36.564 my God. 00:04:36.564 --> 00:04:37.264 Well, so this is my... 00:04:37.274 --> 00:04:40.375 Like, i- i- was your husband, did he even know anything? 00:04:40.404 --> 00:04:40.735 I mean, could 00:04:40.964 --> 00:04:41.615 you sit down- Yeah, so he did. 00:04:41.615 --> 00:04:41.904 Okay. 00:04:41.935 --> 00:04:42.305 Yes. 00:04:42.454 --> 00:04:44.574 Yeah, so he, he knew. 00:04:44.615 --> 00:04:46.605 He's actually a phenomenal editor. 00:04:46.634 --> 00:04:54.545 But we instituted some boundaries when I was working on this book, which were that he wasn't gonna read any material until I had half of the book. 00:04:54.555 --> 00:04:54.584 Okay. 00:04:54.795 --> 00:04:58.485 So we- he definitely did a lot of conversation and brainstorming with me. 00:04:58.545 --> 00:05:06.394 Like, there were just dark nights of the soul when we would be, like, just scraping the, like, the barrel of our brains trying to figure something out. 00:05:06.548 --> 00:05:11.418 but he didn't read anything until I was over two years into the project. 00:05:11.427 --> 00:05:12.677 That's when I had the first half. 00:05:12.718 --> 00:05:17.947 And then I had to wait another two and a half years to give him, you know, the full book. 00:05:17.968 --> 00:05:29.617 But the other people who were kind of in the inside were my editor read at about halfway, and then my agent was, was reading throughout, and a couple of friends, like one or two friends. 00:05:29.627 --> 00:05:34.892 So I really keep it pretty small in this- When I'm working on it, which was really torturous for this because it's like- Oh 00:05:34.903 --> 00:05:35.552 my God 00:05:35.603 --> 00:05:36.952 it's, there's like so much... 00:05:37.153 --> 00:05:39.293 Oh, and I have to give a shout-out to my research assistant. 00:05:39.562 --> 00:05:40.932 My research assistant, Dr. 00:05:40.932 --> 00:05:43.432 Alyssa Adams, is an astrobiologist. 00:05:43.653 --> 00:05:49.812 They are phenomenal, and we're tr- It was the first time I ever had a research assistant while working on a book. 00:05:49.872 --> 00:05:55.302 So to have somebody to whom I could pose questions like,"I want to make this happen fictionally. 00:05:55.452 --> 00:05:58.773 What's a justification that you can give me?" It was incredible. 00:05:58.783 --> 00:06:03.583 So, I mean, it still took this long, but I was so lucky to have research help. 00:06:03.593 --> 00:06:04.033 My God. 00:06:04.083 --> 00:06:04.663 I can imagine. 00:06:04.673 --> 00:06:11.702 First of all, I picture some room in your house just covered with whiteboards and strings and 00:06:12.593 --> 00:06:12.733 pieces of paper. 00:06:12.872 --> 00:06:12.892 Yeah. 00:06:12.892 --> 00:06:12.963 Like an investigation into- That's my brain. 00:06:12.963 --> 00:06:13.963 That's the inside- Yeah of my brain.

00:06:13.963 --> 00:06:13.973 Yes. 00:06:13.973 --> 00:06:14.153 I 00:06:15.752 --> 00:06:19.333 just pictured, like, this almost like a, a murder investigation- Yeah. 00:06:19.333 --> 00:06:32.942 and all the suspects and everything connected because- Yeah yeah, it's really like you talk, like, again, saying in the beginning about the mechanics and how something is put together and the way you make it tie together, and by the way, believably too, right? 00:06:33.153 --> 00:06:33.163 Mm. 00:06:33.192 --> 00:06:46.701 And, and, and your use of f- factual things, and I, you know, I couldn't even come out of this and say,"Well, that was, you know, not real- Yeah or that's not true," is like, it's like a magic act to me. 00:06:47.341 --> 00:06:47.362 Yeah. 00:06:47.461 --> 00:06:47.762 Oh, thank you. 00:06:47.762 --> 00:06:48.391 Um, truly. 00:06:48.822 --> 00:06:56.562 Yeah, and also, the other thing that blew me away about this is reading that you are not, or were not, like, a science person. 00:06:56.572 --> 00:06:56.872 No. 00:06:56.911 --> 00:07:01.172 I mean, not in terms of, like, being a science person in school. 00:07:01.182 --> 00:07:01.201 Yeah. 00:07:01.211 --> 00:07:03.822 I was never great at science. 00:07:03.862 --> 00:07:16.601 Um, I, you know, I, I'm not at all a math person, and so the kind of like harder elements of, like, hard science elements are things that just don't necessarily make sense to my brain. 00:07:16.661 --> 00:07:27.012 But I love science from a storytelling perspective and kind of from a philosophical perspective, because it's the way that we can try to understand the world. 00:07:27.031 --> 00:07:38.091 And I'm fascinated by existential mysteries, things like what happens after we die, and is there life elsewhere in the universe, and why does time only move in one direction? 00:07:38.091 --> 00:07:42.831 And science is one of the tools that we have to investigate those things. 00:07:42.841 --> 00:07:50.122 So it's very strange to me and a bit mysterious that, you know, I've, in each of my novels now, I've written about scientists. 00:07:50.151 --> 00:07:50.161 Hmm. 00:07:50.341 --> 00:07:54.271 And at this point, I feel like I have some amateur- Right. 00:07:54.302 --> 00:07:55.201 science background. 00:07:55.242 --> 00:07:55.461 Right. 00:07:55.932 --> 00:08:06.302 Um, but, uh, but it's really, like, interest-based, um, not sort of something that I'm naturally, I think, or, or was previously strong in. 00:08:06.312 --> 00:08:18.692 Well, and what it does is, and this is another reason, like, why I personally love books and love books that engage, because something like this, I was immediately, I was looking up so much. 00:08:18.692 --> 00:08:25.331 Like Silent Springs, for example- Mm is referenced by Rachel Carson- Mm in the book, which I was like,"This has to be a real thing." And so I immediately- Yeah looked it up. 00:08:25.581 --> 00:08:28.901 I put it in my PangoBooks cart,'cause I was like,"Well, I have

to read this book." 00:08:29.192 --> 00:08:29.632 Oh, cool. 00:08:29.802 --> 00:08:31.732 So it's that kind of extension- 00:08:31.732 --> 00:08:32.182 Yeah 00:08:32.461 --> 00:08:40.451 that I find is so fascinating, and just, like, literally- Yeah it sounds so obvious to say, but learning about these things through the written word. 00:08:40.481 --> 00:08:44.721 But it truly is- Yeah that, because you're so invested in what's happening, which is great. 00:08:45.416 --> 00:09:09.475 I'm so happy to hear that, and I, I really hope that the book, uh, if, if it in fa- if it impacts other people to read it the way that it impacted me to write it, I will be so happy because the research that I did for this novel, especially around the non-human, you know, non-human intelligence or sentience, whatever words we want to use, was so impactful to me. 00:09:09.475 --> 00:09:12.725 I just really look at other beings differently. 00:09:12.875 --> 00:09:16.285 Um, yeah, it really, it's exciting to me to hear. 00:09:16.285 --> 00:09:24.015 And I, I don't know, I've been thinking about this as I've been asked about the kind of cross-hatching of real science and science fiction in this book. 00:09:24.046 --> 00:09:37.035 It really mattered to me while writing that there was a lot of verisimilitude, that I was using real things- Mm and then jumping off of them to create something imaginary, and I don't even know why that felt like such a priority for me. 00:09:37.035 --> 00:09:51.966 I think it felt like a way to make it convincing, and, and maybe, maybe harder for a reader to discard and say, like,"Well, this isn't really about our world." Like, maybe I feel it makes the book more accountable to the real world or the, or the reader more engaged with the real world while reading. 00:09:52.025 --> 00:09:54.135 I loved kind of finding... 00:09:54.416 --> 00:09:56.326 It- it's sort of like a magpie instinct. 00:09:56.336 --> 00:09:59.576 There's, like, a nest of, like- real things and fictional things, and they're all... 00:09:59.706 --> 00:10:08.645 I can tell you, like, if there, if there was anything you're like,"Is this real?" Like, I can break everything down, but maybe that's for the spoiler part of the- Right, right episode. 00:10:09.485 --> 00:10:13.865 Okay, so for our listeners and our viewers, do you have a, an elevator pitch for the book? 00:10:13.865 --> 00:10:13.975 Kind 00:10:13.975 --> 00:10:14.785 of jumped right in. 00:10:14.936 --> 00:10:15.186 Yes. 00:10:15.206 --> 00:10:15.576 Yes. 00:10:15.586 --> 00:10:36.436 So my elevator pitch, and, you know, this is a very hard book to discuss without spoilers, but it's essentially that we have two, uh, protagonists, a, a divorced couple, Laurel and Eli, both scientists, who are unwillingly reunited at a research base in Antarctica, where a visual disturbance known as the Ark is behaving very strangely. 00:10:36.535 --> 00:10:42.775 And I think that the jacket copy alludes to the fact that this is a novel

that is ultimately about multiple universes. 00:10:42.796 --> 00:10:45.586 So I'll say those, those two things. 00:10:45.936 --> 00:10:53.005 So yes, and the book covers so many things betwe- between, like, mycology and physics and the, this, like, the space-time continuum. 00:10:53.066 --> 00:11:01.926 I know that the seed of this, can you tell our viewers and our listeners, w- I know the story, but, like, what the story is and how this, what prompted for you? 00:11:02.155 --> 00:11:11.326 But then beyond that, what part of this kind of, uh, for lack of a better word, science aspect of it did you start to focus on before other threads started to come in? 00:11:12.285 --> 00:11:12.836 Sure. 00:11:12.905 --> 00:11:17.245 So the initial spark for the novel came to me in early 2020. 00:11:17.566 --> 00:11:27.235 Um, there was an experiment in Antarctica at the US research base called McMurdo that found an elementary particle called neutrinos were behaving very strangely. 00:11:27.265 --> 00:11:37.865 And one very speculative idea to explain how they were behaving was that perhaps they were evidence of a parallel universe that moved backward in time. 00:11:38.385 --> 00:11:48.875 This was soon disproven as an explanation for the particular phenomenon in the study, but I thought it was fascinating, and so I kind of ran with it. 00:11:48.936 --> 00:11:57.525 And so it's a little bit complicated to explain because there was the experiment that took place in Antarctica by, by a group called ANITA, A-N-I-T-A. 00:11:57.525 --> 00:11:58.405 It's an acronym. 00:11:58.505 --> 00:12:00.846 They are in the book, I mean, a fictionalized version. 00:12:00.905 --> 00:12:06.605 And then there was a separate trio of scientists who hypostulated this idea of a... 00:12:06.785 --> 00:12:08.806 Or hypostulated is not a word. 00:12:09.186 --> 00:12:10.375 Who hypothesized- Hypothesized? 00:12:11.855 --> 00:12:12.686 And/or postulated. 00:12:12.865 --> 00:12:13.620 But I totally went with it. 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:14.245 I'm like, she knows science. 00:12:14.245 --> 00:12:14.370 Yeah. 00:12:14.370 --> 00:12:16.076 That could be a word I haven't heard yet. 00:12:16.855 --> 00:12:21.546 Any scientist listening to this is like,"Yeah, we know she's, she, this woman is not- Right one of us." Right. 00:12:21.615 --> 00:12:34.563 Anyway, they hypothesized this idea of a CPT symmetric universe, which is, uh, you know, that the Our universe is actually two universes, one that has inverted properties. 00:12:34.594 --> 00:12:42.644 And then a third scientist linked these two, two things, the ANITA results and the CPT symmetric universe theory. 00:12:42.673 --> 00:12:54.583 So I kind of ran with, with this and fictionalized it heavily to suit my purposes, but I did start by interviewing one of the physicists who came up with the idea of the CPT symmetric universe. 00:12:54.594 --> 00:13:00.524 His name is Latham Boyle, and he was really kind to do some early brainstorming with me, and then I sort of went off the deep end. 00:13:00.583 --> 00:13:09.063 But the same, at the same time, I knew that I wanted to have a really strong interpersonal core, and I was interested in writing about a marriage. 00:13:09.114 --> 00:13:16.014 The Immortalists, my previous novel, follows four siblings, and each of those siblings has one section of the novel. 00:13:16.053 --> 00:13:26.234 And so there's four different perspectives, and there's a, there's a love story in at least one of them, but I hadn't really focused on that, exclusively in a book before. 00:13:26.264 --> 00:13:37.134 So I wanted there to be something really tense in this relationship that, you know, there would be a sense of suspense throughout the book, and what came to me was the idea of a couple that is divorced. 00:13:37.134 --> 00:13:41.533 And so what is keeping them apart is not anything external, but something internal. 00:13:41.533 --> 00:13:43.114 It's their own former decision. 00:13:43.524 --> 00:13:45.854 Um, and, and that was really interesting to me. 00:13:45.933 --> 00:13:47.764 And then where did the mycology come into it? 00:13:47.764 --> 00:13:50.553 I mean, the mushrooms, and it's so amazing to me. 00:13:51.173 --> 00:13:56.104 Well, you know, I think mushrooms have really been in the ether in the past, like, five- Mm 10 years. 00:13:56.114 --> 00:13:58.063 So I'm sure I was picking up on that. 00:13:58.073 --> 00:14:03.303 The protagonist, Laurel, is a mycologist, so she researches fungi. 00:14:03.384 --> 00:14:06.214 And I was trying to think, like, when exactly did that come in? 00:14:06.214 --> 00:14:20.666 And I, I need to go back and look at my notebooks, but I know that a large part of it was something that I don't know how to talk about without getting into, uh, spoiler territory, but, um, it, but how life begins in- in the other universe Yeah. 00:14:20.676 --> 00:14:20.926 Yes 00:14:20.936 --> 00:14:22.216 Let's say, let's say that. 00:14:22.485 --> 00:14:29.375 Um, that when I knew that I needed that piece, then it made sense for that to be her focus. 00:14:29.966 --> 00:14:30.716 Interesting. 00:14:31.125 --> 00:14:31.816 Interesting. 00:14:32.306 --> 00:14:32.875 Wow. 00:14:32.926 --> 00:14:43.546 I'm just sitting with it for a second because my, my brain is, again, going through so much of this, and we may be going into spoilers sooner than later because I'm still trying to, like, navigate. 00:14:43.936 --> 00:14:54.005 Um- Mm-hmm after spending so much time researching for this book and spending time,'cause a lot of the book, it deals with a lot of different subjects, but one of them is our relationship to the natural world. 00:14:54.046 --> 00:14:57.816 Has your own outlook on things, and I think you alluded to it when we started- 00:14:57.865 --> 00:14:58.145 Mm-hmm 00:14:58.145 --> 00:15:00.265 changed since going through all this? 00:15:00.666 --> 00:15:00.796 Yes. 00:15:00.796 --> 00:15:13.515 Also, I, I, and I also, I ask that

question because I know that you spent most of your life in an urban setting- Mm-hmm and now you live in Wisconsin, which is a very different thing, and I'm experiencing that now, having lived almost my entire adult life in Los Angeles, and now live- 00:15:13.515 --> 00:15:14.166 Hmm 00:15:14.166 --> 00:15:15.905 basically in a forest on an island. 00:15:15.916 --> 00:15:15.926 Oh, 00:15:15.926 --> 00:15:16.326 wow. 00:15:16.796 --> 00:15:17.416 Yeah. 00:15:17.426 --> 00:15:17.456 And 00:15:18.125 --> 00:15:20.696 so I'm so curious if that, has that affected you at all? 00:15:20.755 --> 00:15:21.346 Yes. 00:15:21.365 --> 00:15:23.505 Well, I'm curious about your experience as well. 00:15:23.535 --> 00:15:33.105 But yeah, I grew up in San Francisco, and, um, I'm, when I went to grad school for creative writing, I moved to Wisconsin, and I was there for 15 years. 00:15:33.155 --> 00:15:36.495 My husband and I actually moved back to the Bay Area just a year ago. 00:15:36.525 --> 00:15:38.855 Um, he's now working at UC Berkeley. 00:15:38.966 --> 00:15:45.035 But suffice it to say that I have always been a city kid and kind of an indoor cat. 00:15:45.076 --> 00:15:46.115 You know, I'm a reader. 00:15:46.426 --> 00:15:47.056 I'm a knitter. 00:15:47.056 --> 00:15:47.816 I'm a writer. 00:15:48.015 --> 00:15:50.365 None of these things are, like, outdoorsy pursuits. 00:15:50.375 --> 00:16:03.696 And, um, so the fact that I wrote this book, like, sometimes I, I almost feel like a fraud or an imposter, but I also think that it's like I came to the natural world with the passion of a convert. 00:16:03.995 --> 00:16:18.586 Like, as I, as I interacted more and more with- With the non-human, as I studied and researched the subjects for this book, I just had this profound experience of being tenderized. 00:16:18.625 --> 00:16:20.105 That's the best way I can put it. 00:16:20.186 --> 00:16:34.505 Like, it- I feel pained to see a worm crushed on the sidewalk now because I know what worms do, um, f- you know, for soil, for plants, for our food systems. 00:16:34.556 --> 00:16:38.235 I stopped eating meat midway through the research process. 00:16:38.275 --> 00:16:46.706 I just feel this intense compassion and awe for other beings, and I never expected that. 00:16:46.785 --> 00:17:09.306 It's, it's, like, more painful to live in the world now, but I think that's so true to, like, the more compassion we have, the, the more painful life can be, and that's maybe one reason why it's, like, much easier to go through the world with a hard shell because then you're not hurting as much if you're not thinking about what other people or, um, beings are experiencing. 00:17:09.836 --> 00:17:09.976 Um- 00:17:10.125 --> 00:17:10.695 Empathy sucks. 00:17:11.506 --> 00:17:12.195 Yeah, right. 00:17:12.246 --> 00:17:13.006 Don't do it. 00:17:14.135 --> 00:17:14.885 It's the worst. 00:17:17.875 --> 00:17:20.796 Um, so yeah, it's, I mean, my... 00:17:20.836 --> 00:17:25.496 I, I also give credit to my husband for kind of opening my eyes to some of these things. 00:17:25.506 --> 00:17:27.346 He's a sustainability professional. 00:17:27.395 --> 00:17:30.776 He work- he's actually the director of sustainability at UC Berkeley. 00:17:30.806 --> 00:17:39.496 Grew up, you know, off a dirt road in Massachusetts, has always been incredibly connected to his environment, and I've learned a lot from him. 00:17:39.506 --> 00:17:41.155 So yeah, it's, it... 00:17:41.306 --> 00:17:43.026 I mean, I don't know where... 00:17:43.026 --> 00:17:45.185 It's kind of like with the science, you know? 00:17:45.513 --> 00:17:55.584 I, it, it's sort of a mystery to me how I found my way to certain subjects in the book, but I think what I hope comes through is just the, like, enlightenment that I felt while working on it. 00:17:55.594 --> 00:18:01.163 And there was like a, you know, I kind of fell in love with, with the world around me while- 00:18:01.203 --> 00:18:01.423 Mm 00:18:01.423 --> 00:18:01.923 writing the novel. 00:18:01.963 --> 00:18:05.993 Yeah, I feel, I feel so much of that too living in this environment. 00:18:06.013 --> 00:18:06.023 Mm. 00:18:06.034 --> 00:18:13.049 I also feel, this is a weird thing to say, but almost your insignificance in a way- Mm-hmm in the greater of it all. 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.299 But I stand here and there's these trees that are so tall. 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:16.519 Yeah. 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:17.289 And like just- 00:18:17.289 --> 00:18:17.480 Yeah 00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:20.910 the, the floral, the fauna, and the life of just the animals. 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:20.940 Yeah. 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:27.410 And like walking at night and seeing an owl on a telephone wire or seeing, waking up one morning and there's a fawn outside my bedroom door. 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:27.440 Yeah. 00:18:27.450 --> 00:18:29.733 All of this kind of stuff and this, I don't know. 00:18:29.733 --> 00:18:39.680 And I, I think like you it's, I, I feel the same way, where I've suddenly become so aware of every single thing, and kind of the connectedness of all of it. 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:46.990 And I feel like- Yeah part of that for me has been separating out of a place that's so overwhelmingly stimulating all the time. 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:47.420 Yeah. 00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:49.910 The people, and noise, and all of it. 00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:58.369 It's interesting with the book because it's bringing up these two ideas of kind of science, not necessarily versus spirituality, but- 00:18:58.539 --> 00:18:58.910 Hmm 00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:01.170 in, in terms of belief. 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:02.200 Yeah. 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:08.900 And it made me think a lot about the way that people kind of try to make sense of the world by using one of these two things. 00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:08.910 Hmm. 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.019 Whether a belief in a higher power, or a spiritual thing, or relying on science. 00:19:14.019 --> 00:19:18.006

Do you think you as a, as a person- Favor one more than the other? 00:19:18.135 --> 00:19:18.655 Mm. 00:19:19.226 --> 00:19:28.615 I, I'm so glad that came through in this book because that's something that I think about a lot, kind of science and spirituality as being different ways of coping with mystery. 00:19:28.655 --> 00:19:35.385 I think spirituality sort of holds space for it and lets it be there, and science is more interested in figuring out. 00:19:35.465 --> 00:19:45.836 And I feel like there's, there's not as much of the spirituality or kind of religious interest in this book as there is in- Right like, The Immortalist, so I'm glad it still came through to you in some way. 00:19:45.875 --> 00:19:59.605 And I think what is there is a conversation about faith and belief and intuition, and that is kind of an alternate way of knowing that I think in the Western world we don't always know how to understand or fully respect. 00:19:59.655 --> 00:20:01.996 I don't think I fall to one side or the other. 00:20:02.016 --> 00:20:06.256 I think I'm, I'm interested in both and what they have to offer. 00:20:06.266 --> 00:20:06.276 Mm. 00:20:06.286 --> 00:20:09.336 But yeah, I mean, I, I grew up in a... 00:20:09.395 --> 00:20:26.865 I- my dad is Jewish and my mom is Episcopalian, and, you know, so I grew up with multiple religions, and they're, they're divorced but grew up with households with different religions and have just been always fascinated by the way that spirituality offers ways of thinking about these things. 00:20:26.915 --> 00:20:38.155 One of the things I also loved in the book was your whole supporting cast of characters and- Mm the, the diversity of them, and especially in regards to sexuality and gender, I just really appreciated it. 00:20:38.155 --> 00:20:38.236 Mm. 00:20:38.236 --> 00:20:39.776 And was that very intentional for you? 00:20:39.955 --> 00:20:40.546 Mm. 00:20:40.935 --> 00:20:41.395 Thank you. 00:20:41.395 --> 00:20:49.435 Well, I grew up with gay parents, so, um, after my, my mom and my dad divorced, my mom, was with her partner Molly for about 17 years. 00:20:49.445 --> 00:20:49.455 Mm. 00:20:49.476 --> 00:20:54.865 They're no longer together, but I, I was raised by my mom and Molly, and then my dad and my stepmom Ellen. 00:20:54.875 --> 00:21:15.405 And, so yeah, having, having representation that is diverse has always been really important to me, and I think the LGBTQ+ community has been really meaningful to me throughout my life because of my mom and Molly, and a lot of our family friends were queer and are kind of aunties to me. 00:21:15.445 --> 00:21:17.425 Um, uh, so... 00:21:17.455 --> 00:21:29.746 And also growing up in San Francisco, you know, it's a, it's a diverse, um, a, you know, for the most part accepting place where a lot of different people have gone to find community and refuge. 00:21:29.746 --> 00:21:34.155 And yeah, I think that was intentional, but also it's just kind of part of my, my life. 00:21:34.195 --> 00:21:34.536 Yeah. 00:21:34.665 --> 00:21:38.665 Okay, now I have to tell everybody that at this point I'm going to be dipping into the- 00:21:38.796 --> 00:21:39.036 Okay 00:21:39.536 --> 00:21:40.816 potentially spoiler stuff. 00:21:40.816 --> 00:21:43.486 Put, put it down if you haven't, and then come back after you've- 00:21:43.496 --> 00:21:43.905 That's right. 00:21:43.905 --> 00:21:44.165 That's right read the book. 00:21:44.736 --> 00:21:49.105 Because I have some questions we're gonna get into, and I just can't not ask, and so it's gonna spoil. 00:21:49.125 --> 00:22:05.256 Okay, so I have to say, one of the things that I really dug, and it must've been so much fun for you in terms of, uh, in an exploratory way, was the kind of inverse world that- Mm-hmm these two end up in. 00:22:05.695 --> 00:22:14.634 And I kind of loved to see what- versions of not only, not them, not Eli or Laurel necessarily, but, but the other characters. 00:22:14.644 --> 00:22:14.953 Yeah. 00:22:15.074 --> 00:22:17.064 And particularly I'm thinking Gloria. 00:22:17.314 --> 00:22:17.384 Yeah. 00:22:17.503 --> 00:22:32.884 Because I loved her and I, I, I loved this poignant moment how you bookend it so beautifully where, you know, she starts as Laurel's professor and then Laurel becomes her teacher in the other side. 00:22:32.894 --> 00:22:32.923 Mm-hmm. 00:22:33.284 --> 00:22:35.354 And I thought that was so beautiful. 00:22:35.354 --> 00:22:42.723 But not only that, of just watching Laurel get to witness Olivia become young. 00:22:43.538 --> 00:22:44.657 And I thought that was... 00:22:44.928 --> 00:22:58.178 Like, she, she describes her at one point, her, her hair when she hasn't seen her for a while- Mm and how it's all the colors all coming back to it, and that she could see the woman that she actually was in her, like, vibrant part of her life. 00:22:58.548 --> 00:22:58.557 Mm. 00:22:58.798 --> 00:23:02.907 I just thought that was so, so incredibly beautiful and so moving. 00:23:03.387 --> 00:23:14.107 But I have to think, it must have been so fun for you to kind of parse things out, but not only just characters, but also just cultural references, historical references- Mm all these little things. 00:23:14.117 --> 00:23:14.157 Uh-huh. 00:23:14.407 --> 00:23:19.077 Like, I kept thinking if you were just brainstorming ideas, down to tech, right? 00:23:19.367 --> 00:23:19.597 Like 00:23:20.657 --> 00:23:20.938 a computer- Yeah, like the iCane the iPhone. 00:23:20.938 --> 00:23:22.708 I feel really proud of the iCane. 00:23:23.077 --> 00:23:23.307 Yes, 00:23:23.788 --> 00:23:23.857 yes. 00:23:23.877 --> 00:23:31.857 So, you know, if we're in the spoilery part of the, of the episode that, you know, in the anti-universe, people are born in old age, and then they age down to youth. 00:23:31.897 --> 00:23:38.298 So essentially when they're in their, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, depending on when somebody is born, they're effectively teenage...

00:23:38.307 --> 00:23:40.518 They've had a teenage number of years on earth. 00:23:40.678 --> 00:23:48.157 Uh, so Apple comes out with these- devices like the iCane that, you know, come in, like, these different, like, rose gold and stuff like that. 00:23:48.157 --> 00:23:48.837 That was really fun. 00:23:50.928 --> 00:23:51.498 Yes, the color. 00:23:51.498 --> 00:23:51.948 Yeah. 00:23:51.948 --> 00:23:56.998 Um, so yeah, I mean, Gloria is just very close to my heart. 00:23:56.998 --> 00:24:02.758 I don't know if you, um, if you've seen the deck that my publisher has sent out to some media. 00:24:02.758 --> 00:24:02.928 No. 00:24:02.958 --> 00:24:03.877 But Glor-... 00:24:03.917 --> 00:24:04.387 Oh, good. 00:24:04.407 --> 00:24:09.397 Well, I mean, good because I can tell you that Gloria is very much based on my grandmother. 00:24:09.397 --> 00:24:09.678 Oh, wow. 00:24:09.678 --> 00:24:14.268 Um, so my, my grandma was just a magical being. 00:24:14.488 --> 00:24:23.718 Not at all outdoorsy, so it was funny kind of putting her into this character, but incredibly curious, compassionate, eccentric. 00:24:23.748 --> 00:24:25.387 She had a blackbird hat. 00:24:25.387 --> 00:24:26.597 So she's on my desk. 00:24:26.597 --> 00:24:27.147 I'll show you. 00:24:27.147 --> 00:24:28.238 This is my grandmother. 00:24:28.238 --> 00:24:31.807 Um- Oh my God, there's the hat and this blackbird hat with the necklace wound up going- Yes. 00:24:32.508 --> 00:24:33.278 in the book. 00:24:33.407 --> 00:24:35.538 Um, and, and my... 00:24:35.617 --> 00:24:40.397 And Grandma passed about a year before I started the book, and I was devastated. 00:24:40.478 --> 00:24:47.067 And also I was dealing with a lot of chronic pain at that time that prevented me from crying, because crying was a, was a major migraine trigger. 00:24:47.438 --> 00:24:58.498 And so I think that writing her into this book was a way that I coped, and it was sort of a way to try to save her and introduce her to other people, selfishly. 00:24:58.557 --> 00:25:03.438 And so I'm thrilled whenever anybody, you know, likes Gloria. 00:25:03.478 --> 00:25:11.167 And then the inverse, Gloria 2, it's really funny because sometimes I, I don't understand the inspiration until I get through a book. 00:25:11.178 --> 00:25:13.698 And so my, my youngest... 00:25:13.698 --> 00:25:18.018 I am the oldest of my cousins, and I was very close to my grandmother. 00:25:18.038 --> 00:25:22.377 And my youngest cousin, whose name is India, also very close to our grandmother. 00:25:22.438 --> 00:25:28.587 After I finished the book, I was like,"I think India is so much the inspiration for Gloria too," because she's much younger than me. 00:25:28.768 --> 00:25:30.428 She's, like- Mm in her early 20s. 00:25:30.478 --> 00:25:36.788 And so th- that sense of kind of sisterhood and, like, how she, sh- you know, she's kind of an upstart. 00:25:36.798 --> 00:25:43.748 She's- Yeah like super smart, kind of- challenges Laurel, but also just,

like, an absolute delight. 00:25:43.827 --> 00:25:55.807 Um, I, I gave the book to India to read, and I was like,"I have to admit, I think that, like, there's some of you in there." And then the upstart she is, she flipped to the end to try to find Gloria 2. 00:25:55.948 --> 00:25:58.048 She was like,"You said I'm Gloria 2." I was like,"What are you doing? 00:25:58.307 --> 00:26:05.518 Start at the beginning." Um, so so that, you know, that was really fun to write. 00:26:05.557 --> 00:26:07.018 And yeah, all the tech was... 00:26:07.117 --> 00:26:08.928 I mean, the tech was largely a blast. 00:26:08.978 --> 00:26:12.748 There were things about the world building that were just so difficult to figure out. 00:26:13.018 --> 00:26:15.018 But- Oh, my God you know, the tech was really fun. 00:26:15.228 --> 00:26:23.607 Yeah, basically, in this backwards univer- I don't know why I'm explaining this'cause I guess hopefully anybody who's listening to this has already read- Has read it, knows it, yeah this part of the book. 00:26:23.817 --> 00:26:24.188 Yes. 00:26:24.218 --> 00:26:33.847 But in case there's anybody who is masochistic like my cousin India and is re- listening to this before they, before they read, technology goes in reverse. 00:26:33.877 --> 00:26:39.778 Um, uh, so they're, we are coming from a more technologically advanced future in the anti-universe. 00:26:39.837 --> 00:26:54.307 If you had the opportunity to go to that other side and live from now, and I'm talking about from where you are now, to go over- Mm-hmm and to your life, and then do it backwards, would you do it? 00:26:55.290 --> 00:27:05.211 No, but I guess I say that with some wistfulness because it's, because there are things that I would love to reexperience, but you can't have both, and that's sort of the point. 00:27:05.221 --> 00:27:05.250 Right. 00:27:05.611 --> 00:27:05.971 You know? 00:27:05.980 --> 00:27:15.871 Whichever way you're going, whether you're going forward in our world or you're going backward in theirs, you can't have all of the gifts of each universe at once. 00:27:15.871 --> 00:27:17.050 You still have to choose. 00:27:17.701 --> 00:27:18.111 Would you? 00:27:19.505 --> 00:27:21.734 I don't think I would, and I don't think I would... 00:27:21.795 --> 00:27:22.855 Well, I, let me put it this way. 00:27:22.884 --> 00:27:35.025 It's hard because I say I, I wouldn't do it knowing what I know, but what I know- Yeah are only the factual things, like in 197- you know, this person was president or this- Mm we went to the moon this year. 00:27:35.394 --> 00:27:39.325 But you don't know that your experience would necessarily be the same. 00:27:39.325 --> 00:27:41.805 It's not like you're gonna repeat the way you grew up, right? 00:27:41.835 --> 00:27:42.214 Right. 00:27:42.605 --> 00:27:57.005 Well, yeah, I mean, I think one quest- one open question is how much the universes diverge, and I really wanted- Yeah there to be enough wiggle room there that there, there

is the possibility of n- of doing things differently, but you have to work at it. 00:27:57.035 --> 00:28:10.805 It's kind of like when Laurel is able to escape the clutches of this ex that she has in, in our universe, and then he's coming onto her in the anti-universe, but she now- Yes knows that he's, like, a dick, and she doesn't want anything to do with him. 00:28:10.815 --> 00:28:14.755 But she really has to, like, push against the will of the do-overs to do that. 00:28:14.755 --> 00:28:15.035 Right. 00:28:15.214 --> 00:28:17.355 And that's kind of how I envision it. 00:28:17.434 --> 00:28:22.295 And I think that there's a parallel with, like, changing the trajectory of our world. 00:28:22.295 --> 00:28:22.605 Right. 00:28:22.605 --> 00:28:33.755 I mean, I've been thinking about this politically because I hate the thought that the anti-universe is moving inevitably back toward these horrors of the past, of our past. 00:28:33.765 --> 00:28:39.634 You know, I don't wanna accept that that has to be true, and for it not to be true, it would take work. 00:28:39.644 --> 00:28:43.944 It would take organizing and, like, pushing back, and I think the same is true now, right? 00:28:43.974 --> 00:28:44.230 Like, our world- I 00:28:44.230 --> 00:28:46.115 was gonna say, are you talking about our world or their world? 00:28:46.615 --> 00:28:47.525 Well, exactly. 00:28:47.525 --> 00:28:54.335 I know because- Like, our-- There's so many things that I just feel really terrified about the direction that we're going in. 00:28:54.365 --> 00:29:01.974 And- Yeah so I would like to believe that there is the chance of change, but it can't be passive. 00:29:02.704 --> 00:29:03.075 Yeah. 00:29:03.134 --> 00:29:12.759 No, I think you're right The other thing that I, we couldn't get into is the whole element of with Silas, with their losing- Mm their son, and this idea of grief. 00:29:12.798 --> 00:29:21.638 But it also plays into what you're just talking about, of like making the decision for them to go back to try to recapture this moment to save him. 00:29:21.648 --> 00:29:21.679 Mm-hmm. 00:29:21.959 --> 00:29:24.028 But what does that do to the other side? 00:29:24.278 --> 00:29:25.159 And also- 00:29:25.419 --> 00:29:25.519 Mm-hmm 00:29:25.568 --> 00:29:26.588 what is the trade-off? 00:29:26.608 --> 00:29:30.409 There, there's, there is a, there's a payment that's due kind of either way- 00:29:30.499 --> 00:29:30.588 Mm. 00:29:30.588 --> 00:29:30.989 Mm 00:29:30.989 --> 00:29:33.979 in some respect, which I find so fascinating. 00:29:34.648 --> 00:29:50.459 But one of the most powerful things, and I was sitting in the car, my husband was driving and I was reading, and I got to the point when, you know,'cause I, when Eli says like, you know, y- have, do you know what, what's going to happen in terms 00:29:50.459 --> 00:29:50.578 of- Mm 00:29:50.689 --> 00:29:51.288 their son on- To 00:29:51.298 --> 00:29:51.818 Laurel 00:29:51.868 --> 00:29:52.338 the other side. 00:29:52.709 --> 00:29:54.538 To Laurel- Yeah at this point. 00:29:54.538 --> 00:29:54.999 Mm-hmm. 00:29:54.999 --> 00:29:55.138 Mm-hmm. 00:29:55.148 --> 00:29:58.929 And that birth scene, or I should say death scene- 00:29:59.459 --> 00:29:59.598 Mm 00:29:59.608 --> 00:30:01.009 is so incredible. 00:30:01.009 --> 00:30:03.729 And I was reading that out loud to my husband, who I'd only given him... 00:30:03.749 --> 00:30:06.199 It's again, very hard to describe the book, so I'm giving him broad strokes. 00:30:06.199 --> 00:30:06.419 Mm-hmm. 00:30:06.419 --> 00:30:15.798 And I just had to read the paragraph- Mm-hmm when the nurse takes her hand and s- she says, you know,"You're gonna know what to do." And she's like,"What should I do?" And she says,"Pull" instead of push. 00:30:15.798 --> 00:30:16.358 Yeah. 00:30:16.868 --> 00:30:17.028 Yeah. 00:30:17.028 --> 00:30:17.659 And I was like... 00:30:20.499 --> 00:30:24.709 I was so, I was so- Aw, thank you blown away by that and moved by that. 00:30:25.068 --> 00:30:38.249 But also it just put a whole nother level in terms of this mother and the mourning process, but also- Mm this child becoming a part of her again. 00:30:38.969 --> 00:30:39.078 Mm. 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:40.108 I don't know. 00:30:40.108 --> 00:30:45.823 It, it, that has made me kind of like, I can't get that idea- And 00:30:45.823 --> 00:30:46.653 I- Thank you 00:30:47.303 --> 00:30:51.542 I don't know where you, how you even came up to think, oh, well, she- they're gonna take them in. 00:30:51.603 --> 00:30:52.083 And- 00:30:52.682 --> 00:30:52.792 Mm 00:30:52.813 --> 00:30:57.623 this idea of an overseer who kind of shepherds it along, that again was- 00:30:57.633 --> 00:30:58.042 Mm-hmm 00:30:58.173 --> 00:30:59.163 so incredible. 00:30:59.232 --> 00:31:01.482 Because it all made sense to me, and that's the crazy thing. 00:31:01.482 --> 00:31:01.782 Mm-hmm. 00:31:01.782 --> 00:31:01.932 Mm-hmm, yeah. 00:31:01.952 --> 00:31:09.853 All of the things that we're working backwards, because of the way that we know as someone ages, they really become childlike again, whether it's- 00:31:09.853 --> 00:31:10.373 Yes 00:31:10.692 --> 00:31:15.262 being dependent on other people, and, uh, even going as far as- Yeah putting a diaper on. 00:31:15.522 --> 00:31:16.373 Right, right. 00:31:16.952 --> 00:31:17.292 Yeah I mean, really. 00:31:17.403 --> 00:31:22.512 And it's like I'm at the phase in my life when all of our parents are passing or we're getting to that phase. 00:31:22.613 --> 00:31:22.623 Mm. 00:31:22.682 --> 00:31:24.643 People are losing their mind, and they're, you know. 00:31:24.643 --> 00:31:24.742 Yeah. 00:31:24.742 --> 00:31:30.299 And so the fragility of all of it on either end- Yeah you've captured it beautifully. 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:32.559 I mean- Oh, thank you it's 00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:33.029 crazy. 00:31:33.029 --> 00:31:50.022 I- I'm so touched to hear that, and, um, I, I also, I can relate to what you're saying

because when I was working on this book, my stepmother, Ellen, was slowly deteriorating with a very difficult dementia called Lewy body. 00:31:50.022 --> 00:31:50.383 Hmm. 00:31:50.383 --> 00:32:04.522 And I think I thought a lot about just the, the reversal, you know, and the kind of loss of independence and, and rights and sentience that you experience as you get- Yeah into that part of life. 00:32:04.563 --> 00:32:11.932 And I think the reason why even the surreal parts of this universe make sense is that they are the mirror of ours. 00:32:12.103 --> 00:32:12.313 That's 00:32:12.313 --> 00:32:12.452 right. 00:32:12.452 --> 00:32:13.772 And so, you know, when... 00:32:13.853 --> 00:32:20.123 I mean, it is absolutely wild to me that we are born out of a human body and then disintegrate in the earth. 00:32:20.232 --> 00:32:23.942 We just don't think of it that way as wild because we're used to it. 00:32:23.952 --> 00:32:25.393 So all I did- Yeah was flip it. 00:32:25.848 --> 00:32:29.479 It's that you're born of the earth, and then you return to a human body. 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:33.068 And that's- Yes mind-blowing, but it really is just the mirror. 00:32:33.078 --> 00:32:45.898 So that, that was sort of a guiding light for me, and, and I think my hope is that it makes us feel alive to all of the things that are awe-inspiring about life as it is, because it- it's not so different. 00:32:45.898 --> 00:32:53.719 But you know what, and you know what I've loved that you've done, because you've taken this story, and centrally, centrally, it's this story of these two people, and it is a love story, right? 00:32:53.739 --> 00:32:57.919 That, that honestly goes over years and reverses and goes back. 00:32:58.328 --> 00:33:01.429 But you, you, you take it at one point that's simple. 00:33:01.429 --> 00:33:03.098 It's like a, it's a meet cute, right? 00:33:03.098 --> 00:33:04.558 These two people coming together. 00:33:04.558 --> 00:33:05.098 Mm-hmm. 00:33:05.098 --> 00:33:15.989 And then all of this literally world explodes, and, and but you bring it all back to the most simplistic moment that's really just about the two of them again. 00:33:15.989 --> 00:33:16.419 Yeah. 00:33:16.419 --> 00:33:22.548 And I love that so much because, you know, there is that moment as the reader where I'm thinking,"Oh, my God. 00:33:22.548 --> 00:33:23.068 Oh, my God. 00:33:23.068 --> 00:33:23.739 They're gonna get over. 00:33:23.739 --> 00:33:24.409 They're gonna take him. 00:33:24.409 --> 00:33:35.189 They're gonna get him." And even to the point- Mm-hmm when Silas is becoming part of her again, and the beautiful moment- Mm when Eli pushes the head in, and just that- Mm they do it together. 00:33:35.249 --> 00:33:36.949 And I kept thinking- Mm"Wait a minute. 00:33:36.949 --> 00:33:40.898 There's still 100 pages left of this book." Like they have to get over. 00:33:40.929 --> 00:33:42.378 They have to have this moment. 00:33:42.409 --> 00:33:47.538 And then finding out about Celeste and realizing- Yeah it's not just this. 00:33:47.598 --> 00:33:55.489 It's a really about the two of them and surviving through grief and surviving through- Mm-hmm everything that they've gone through together. 00:33:56.328 --> 00:33:57.298 It's really remarkable. 00:33:57.368 --> 00:34:00.269 And I don't know if that's- Oh, thank you even what you intended, but that's what I took from it. 00:34:00.689 --> 00:34:01.798 No, no, it is. 00:34:01.838 --> 00:34:09.159 I, I, you know, I knew from the start when I had the idea that they would find Silas 2 again and lose him again. 00:34:09.688 --> 00:34:16.929 Like, that was always a part of the idea because I didn't want the takeaway of this book to be like,"Yay, they did it." You know? 00:34:16.929 --> 00:34:17.028 Right. 00:34:17.028 --> 00:34:22.509 "They're the heroes, and they succeeded, and they got everything they wanted," because that's not how life is. 00:34:22.778 --> 00:34:28.478 I knew that I wanted the book to exceed that point and to be more about finding acceptance afterward. 00:34:28.489 --> 00:34:36.878 And in some ways, they have gotten everything they wanted, or they've gotten more than they ever would have- Sure had they stayed in our world. 00:34:37.289 --> 00:34:39.708 But even so, there's loss. 00:34:39.778 --> 00:34:58.438 But something that I can say, s- since we're having a spoiler conversation, which I have been able to say to very few people, is that in my initial conception of the book, I knew that there needed to be doubles of each person in the anti-universe because I knew I needed Silas 2, but I wanted nothing to do with Laurel and Eli 2. 00:34:58.478 --> 00:34:59.619 I thought,"We're gonna make... 00:34:59.628 --> 00:35:02.389 I'm gonna destroy them." Laurel and Eli 1- Ah are gonna cross. 00:35:02.418 --> 00:35:05.039 That matter, anti-matter imbalance is gonna kick in. 00:35:05.268 --> 00:35:08.418 Laurel and Eli 2 disappear because all I need is Silas. 00:35:08.909 --> 00:35:20.635 And as I got into the second half, I just realized, like, that would be so disappointing, and also- This book is about Laurel's relationship with herself. 00:35:20.864 --> 00:35:21.105 Yeah. 00:35:21.164 --> 00:35:26.375 And I think the relationship between Laurel 1 and 2 is actually the heart of the novel. 00:35:26.385 --> 00:35:26.394 Mm. 00:35:26.715 --> 00:35:33.625 Um, there's a, there's a few lines at the end where, you know, when they're trying to decide what to set the time- the stopwatch to. 00:35:33.635 --> 00:35:33.655 Yeah. 00:35:33.885 --> 00:35:34.864 And Eli's like... 00:35:35.025 --> 00:35:40.545 Or the pocket watch, and Eli says,"Set it to, to this year, then we can go back to before Silas died." Right. 00:35:40.545 --> 00:35:50.304 And Laurel says,"No, because we can't risk destroying our doubles." And then there's a, a paragraph there that are some of my favorite lines in the book about her relationship with the other Laurel. 00:35:50.355 --> 00:36:07.385

And, um, I th- you know, I, I mentioned briefly that I've been through chronic pain, which was a very long, multi-year process of healing for me, and so much of that was about building a healthier and more loving and more sustainable relationship with myself. 00:36:07.485 --> 00:36:16.445 And I think that is the undercurrent of this book that no one would ever know without hearing that because there aren't mig- there aren't migraines in the book. 00:36:16.445 --> 00:36:19.155 It's not, you know- Right that thread is not there. 00:36:19.184 --> 00:36:22.215 But I feel that I've learned how to be my own... 00:36:22.255 --> 00:36:25.894 It sounds so cheesy, but it's like to be my own friend. 00:36:25.925 --> 00:36:54.425 Like, the way that I feel about myself now is like,"We're in this together." Like,"Let's, let's do this." And that's, um, I think, yeah, it's, it's just what, what created Laurel 1 and 2, and I knew so little consciously about that at the start, and so that means there was no Celeste in my initial idea either because once I realized I wasn't going to destroy Laurel and Eli 2, I needed a reason that they would've crossed over. 00:36:54.875 --> 00:37:08.364 And so all of those, like, it's just amazing how, like, you can know so much at the outset, but then these major pieces didn't come in until years into the project, and they're absolutely crucial I think now. 00:37:09.175 --> 00:37:12.514 Well, yeah, and that's why I said in the beginning, it's like I can't imagine... 00:37:12.545 --> 00:37:20.605 Like, as things, as, like you said, as you go on, things are surprising you and informing itself as you get deeper into it, as you learn more. 00:37:20.644 --> 00:37:28.023 It's kind of like they're- They're, in a way, telling you what can and can't work for what you're doing. 00:37:28.282 --> 00:37:28.293 Mm. 00:37:28.293 --> 00:37:30.853 Do you believe in a, in an inverse world? 00:37:30.943 --> 00:37:36.112 Do you believe, or I should say even in the more simplistic terms, do you believe that we all have a double out there somewhere? 00:37:37.762 --> 00:37:38.922 I mean, I, I- 00:37:39.753 --> 00:37:39.913 Right 00:37:40.563 --> 00:37:46.992 I can't say that I believe it in the sense, like I feel that would be a little bit insane if it's like I created this and I believe... 00:37:47.003 --> 00:37:49.202 Like, I, it feels a bit cult leader. 00:37:49.233 --> 00:37:54.242 I guess I feel, you know, like, but I guess I feel like I don't... 00:37:54.253 --> 00:37:55.172 Who knows? 00:37:55.592 --> 00:37:55.742 Right. 00:37:55.742 --> 00:37:56.322 Who knows? 00:37:56.532 --> 00:37:58.853 You know, this is kind of one hypothesis. 00:37:59.333 --> 00:38:00.253 Um, so- 00:38:00.552 --> 00:38:03.052 You're like,"Scan the QR code at the end of the book." 00:38:04.952 --> 00:38:05.842 Join me. 00:38:06.342 --> 00:38:07.702 Yes, exactly. 00:38:08.023 --> 00:38:08.342 Exactly. 00:38:08.362 --> 00:38:22.916 My agent did say when I told her about this

book years ago, she, or maybe when she read the, the first bit of it, she was like,"I think there is gonna be like a Reddit forum that where people believe in the dualverse and talk about it." And I was like- Oh, I-"That's kind of my dream." I think that for sure. 00:38:22.916 --> 00:38:23.753 Like, I love 00:38:24.172 --> 00:38:24.202 that, 00:38:24.862 --> 00:38:34.043 I love that people, I mean, if it gives people a way to like think about life, like that's, that's really thrilling as a writer. 00:38:34.072 --> 00:38:39.063 My, my last question before we go is the final moment in the book. 00:38:39.842 --> 00:38:43.152 I actually love the way you end it, which is very open. 00:38:44.072 --> 00:38:44.083 Mm. 00:38:44.112 --> 00:38:45.083 In your mind- 00:38:45.682 --> 00:38:45.932 Mm-hmm 00:38:45.932 --> 00:38:46.802 do you know where they are? 00:38:47.342 --> 00:38:47.722 Mm-hmm. 00:38:48.853 --> 00:38:50.382 Can you say, or do you not wanna say? 00:38:51.793 --> 00:38:58.293 I don't think I should because if I- Okay left it that way, don't you think it would sort of undo what- You know, yes but what do you think? 00:39:01.561 --> 00:39:02.490 I think they crossed. 00:39:02.990 --> 00:39:03.610 I think they crossed. 00:39:03.610 --> 00:39:03.880 Mm-hmm. 00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:04.670 I think they're back. 00:39:05.090 --> 00:39:05.121 Mm-hmm. 00:39:05.121 --> 00:39:12.911 But it didn't matter to me because, again- Mm by the time I was at the end, uh, I guess what I felt is this: I wanted them to cross- 00:39:13.271 --> 00:39:13.550 Mm-hmm 00:39:13.581 --> 00:39:20.181 because I want their life to kind of reverse course and move on the way it was originally intended. 00:39:20.690 --> 00:39:20.990 Mm-hmm. 00:39:21.030 --> 00:39:38.550 Um, because they were so far along in the other that they were regressing so much that I felt like they were, like we talked about, losing autonomy in a different way that I think would- Mm-hmm be so much harder, and I also wanna believe in some kind of fantasy fiction thing that they go on, and maybe they have another child. 00:39:39.041 --> 00:39:39.460 Uh- 00:39:39.471 --> 00:39:39.481 Mm. 00:39:39.891 --> 00:39:42.371 But it didn't matter to me. 00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:42.951 I didn't feel like... 00:39:42.951 --> 00:39:45.831 There's some times- Mm I get toward the end, I'm like,"Come on!" But I didn't feel that here. 00:39:45.831 --> 00:39:45.891 I 00:39:45.891 --> 00:39:53.021 know, I know, and I know there's a risk of that, but it felt like it had to be that way because the book is so much about possibility. 00:39:53.701 --> 00:39:58.190 Um, but yeah, we should check back in a little while. 00:39:58.280 --> 00:39:59.311 That's all I'll say. 00:39:59.911 --> 00:40:00.300 Okay. 00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:00.360 We 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:00.960 should check back- Yeah, I'm, I'm- in a little while 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:01.161 I'm 00:40:01.641 --> 00:40:02.201 game for that. 00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:03.041 I'm game for that. 00:40:03.050 --> 00:40:03.081 Okay. 00:40:03.101 --> 00:40:03.911 And I'm not even gonna... 00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:08.110 I will tell everyone, I'm not gonna stop this recording and then be like,"Okay, tell me now." I 00:40:08.110 --> 00:40:09.081 wouldn't. 00:40:09.081 --> 00:40:09.240 I 00:40:09.240 --> 00:40:09.541 really, 00:40:09.541 --> 00:40:10.081 no- I wouldn't. 00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:10.550 No, I 00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:10.780 know. 00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:10.900 I know. 00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:11.610 But I do have a question. 00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:12.820 I have a question for you. 00:40:13.070 --> 00:40:13.440 Yeah. 00:40:13.731 --> 00:40:16.101 So I saw you've worked in casting, right? 00:40:16.110 --> 00:40:16.460 You've worked- 00:40:16.460 --> 00:40:17.021 I still do. 00:40:17.050 --> 00:40:17.481 Yeah, that's what I 00:40:17.481 --> 00:40:17.911 do as a casting... 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.061 Or you, or you do, okay. 00:40:19.471 --> 00:40:30.561 So one of the things that I loved about a character like Gloria is what it would offer an actor, like the ability to play, like, a teenaged elderly person. 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:30.940 Yeah. 00:40:30.971 --> 00:40:33.360 And so I'm curious, did any... 00:40:33.740 --> 00:40:35.451 What casting would you do? 00:40:35.490 --> 00:40:35.791 Well, you 00:40:35.791 --> 00:40:37.271 could do a lot of different-'Cause it is gonna be adapted. 00:40:37.601 --> 00:40:37.960 Oh, it is? 00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:38.431 So- Okay. 00:40:38.521 --> 00:40:40.411 Is it doing a- Yeah is it a feature or a series? 00:40:40.731 --> 00:40:43.791 Yeah, it's WB, um, and David Heyman is producing. 00:40:43.811 --> 00:40:44.911 Okay, so wait, a series? 00:40:45.670 --> 00:40:46.231 Oh, no, sorry. 00:40:46.231 --> 00:40:46.510 Film. 00:40:46.851 --> 00:40:47.661 Warner Brothers, okay. 00:40:47.971 --> 00:40:47.990 Um- 00:40:48.041 --> 00:40:48.260 Yeah, 00:40:48.490 --> 00:40:48.661 yeah, 00:40:48.661 --> 00:40:49.400 yeah 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:50.581 well, you can do something. 00:40:50.630 --> 00:40:52.271 I mean, there are so many people that could do this. 00:40:52.271 --> 00:40:53.501 You can have a Glenn Close. 00:40:53.530 --> 00:40:56.971 You can have a Meryl Streep, who would tap into- Oh that so easily. 00:40:56.971 --> 00:40:58.141 Do you know Lesley Manville? 00:40:58.610 --> 00:40:59.371 I know the name. 00:40:59.371 --> 00:41:00.201 I need to look her up. 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:01.920 I, I probably recognize 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:01.996 her. 00:41:01.996 --> 00:41:07.641 Lesley Manville just did this, she just did this production of Les Liaisons dangereuses in, London at the National. 00:41:07.681 --> 00:41:10.271 She has a ton of movies, and she would be great. 00:41:10.271 --> 00:41:10.701 She was also... 00:41:10.701 --> 00:41:11.710 Did you watch The Crown? 00:41:12.007 --> 00:41:12.567 No 00:41:12.773 --> 00:41:12.923 Okay. 00:41:13.043 --> 00:41:15.434 She was in the second set in The

Crown. 00:41:15.443 --> 00:41:18.463 She played Margaret- Okay um, the- Okay the, the sister. 00:41:18.853 --> 00:41:22.173 But she's an amazing actress, so I think she would be great, too. 00:41:22.514 --> 00:41:33.344 But I think, like, Close or Streep would be great,'cause they both- Mm-hmm also too are so smart to me- Mm in terms of being that scientist and that professor. 00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:34.039 Yeah. 00:41:34.184 --> 00:41:34.364 It's... 00:41:34.384 --> 00:41:36.583 I think I would just love to see that. 00:41:36.764 --> 00:41:44.574 I feel like I haven't seen that on screen yet, and I, I mean, Laurel and Eli are very hard for me to cast in my mind. 00:41:44.583 --> 00:41:46.313 Yeah, I mean, what age do you see them? 00:41:46.503 --> 00:41:47.893 I know, but that's the thing. 00:41:48.244 --> 00:41:51.954 If they have to go from, like, 16 to 36-ish. 00:41:52.403 --> 00:41:53.253 And then do you... 00:41:53.304 --> 00:42:00.324 'Cause you obviously physically they start to change, so I mean, the majority- Mm-hmm of it they're one thing, but then- Mm-hmm you also have to find kids. 00:42:00.333 --> 00:42:03.543 I mean, look at, there's those Stranger Things kids who are... 00:42:03.583 --> 00:42:07.244 Like, Sadie Sink could be an amazing You know who Sadie Sink is? 00:42:07.393 --> 00:42:07.474 Mm. 00:42:07.503 --> 00:42:08.134 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:42:08.134 --> 00:42:08.523 Mm-hmm. 00:42:08.744 --> 00:42:11.643 She would be an amazing young version of Laurel. 00:42:11.653 --> 00:42:11.664 Mm. 00:42:11.684 --> 00:42:13.224 But then who does Sadie Sink become? 00:42:13.224 --> 00:42:20.237 Does she become Julianne, you know, Julianne Moore is too old I think now, but does she become- Yeah you know, Emily, Emily Blunt, or does she become- Mm. 00:42:20.237 --> 00:42:20.403 You know what I mean? 00:42:20.403 --> 00:42:21.534 Mm-hmm. 00:42:21.954 --> 00:42:26.603 Do you think that one person could play teenage to late 30s 00:42:26.664 --> 00:42:32.523 i mean, you could get somebody and they could digitally, I'm sure, do something with somebody to make them still do the performance, but make them- 00:42:32.574 --> 00:42:33.134 Mm-hmm 00:42:33.184 --> 00:42:34.193 um, younger. 00:42:34.333 --> 00:42:37.594 You can get someone in cast who would match so well with- 00:42:37.733 --> 00:42:37.974 Mm-hmm 00:42:37.983 --> 00:42:40.273 whatever adult you get- Yeah that. 00:42:40.313 --> 00:42:48.364 God, but she's such a great role, like they both are, but she in particular, that is such- Mm an amazing role to think about all 00:42:48.594 --> 00:42:51.934 the people- It's a bit, it's a lot of range that the person would have to have. 00:42:51.943 --> 00:42:51.963 Yeah. 00:42:51.983 --> 00:42:54.563 I could see, like, a Jennifer Lawrence, like a Brie Larson. 00:42:54.563 --> 00:42:55.563 Oh my God. 00:42:56.034 --> 00:42:56.304 Yep. 00:42:56.454 --> 00:42:59.304 Um, those were kind of some people that... 00:42:59.333 --> 00:43:03.833 But, I mean, there's nobody who's, like, clear to me for that. 00:43:03.844 --> 00:43:05.634 So I was just so curious. 00:43:05.634 --> 00:43:11.824 It's, you know, I don't often get to talk about the, that side of things with an expert, so I just had to pick your brain. 00:43:11.873 --> 00:43:17.074 But I'm so curious, do you ever write with someone in mind at times, or does someone come up for you, or is it completely... 00:43:17.074 --> 00:43:19.393 It's more like- Sometimes you might be inspired by somebody 00:43:19.746 --> 00:43:25.445 I mean, like with my grandmother and Gloria- Yeah but I don't picture Gloria looking exactly like my grandmother. 00:43:25.706 --> 00:43:32.525 I usually don't have, like, a celebrity in mind because I think that just conflicts with the sort of like- 00:43:32.525 --> 00:43:33.365 The purity of it? 00:43:33.916 --> 00:43:34.525 Yeah. 00:43:34.556 --> 00:43:35.045 Yes. 00:43:35.076 --> 00:43:38.505 But I do, I do sometimes think about the adaptation. 00:43:38.516 --> 00:43:47.085 I can't help but not sort of have that cross my mind as I'm working, just because that's something that, you know, can happen in this field. 00:43:47.085 --> 00:43:48.135 So yeah. 00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:49.510 So we'll, we'll see. 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.750 Chloé, I just wanna say thank you so much. 00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:58.730 I mean, first of all, uh, thank you for answering my, my private questions that we got at the end because I had to know, and I couldn't let you go without them. 00:43:58.730 --> 00:44:04.340 But the book is just absolutely beautiful and mind-blowing and mind-bending. 00:44:04.489 --> 00:44:05.329 Please go out and get it. 00:44:05.349 --> 00:44:07.309 Buy independent if you can. 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:11.840 Have an amazing tour and, uh, you know, I just can't wait to see people's reaction to it. 00:44:12.539 --> 00:44:13.940 Oh, thank you so much, Brett. 00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:22.309 You have been such an incredible reader and interviewer, and it's just, like, one of the most joyful parts of this process to be able to talk about it with somebody like you. 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:23.489 So I appreciate you 00:44:23.818 --> 00:44:24.829 Thank you again, Chloe. 00:44:24.929 --> 00:44:33.208 If you've liked today's episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. 00:44:33.469 --> 00:44:43.079 And also, what would be really helpful to me, and if you have the time, would be to leave a review of the show and/or a five-star rating. 00:44:43.112 --> 00:44:48.842 All of these things are really helpful in order to get the show in front of other people who may not be aware of it yet. 00:44:48.842 --> 00:44:59.242 I will be back next week with another episode, and until then, you can find me on Instagram, Substack, and YouTube at Brett's Book Stack. 00:44:59.286 --> 00:45:00.702 And as always, thanks for listening