บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Michael Perry (The Power of Storytelling, Volunteer Firefighting and Healing through Mentorship) - Episode 1291

I grew up with oxygen 00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:20.220 tanks and nasogastric feeding tubes as part of 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:24.879 everyday life. And then the one other factor 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.079 that was a little unusual is that my parents 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:32.410 were part of a very unusual By definition, fundamentalist 00:04:32.410 --> 00:04:35.310 Christian sect. That always sounds intimidating. 00:04:35.470 --> 00:04:38.069 Honestly, I had a lovely, loving, wonderful, 00:04:38.350 --> 00:04:42.089 delightful, comfortable childhood. We were poor 00:04:42.089 --> 00:04:44.810 by definition. We operated below the poverty 00:04:44.810 --> 00:04:48.209 line. But I say I never went to bed hungry, and 00:04:48.209 --> 00:04:50.269 I never went to bed wondering if I was loved. 00:04:50.389 --> 00:04:52.389 And those are the two greatest privileges in 00:04:52.389 --> 00:04:56.230 the world. But because of that particular church, 00:04:56.310 --> 00:05:01.569 we didn't have television. Excuse me. We didn't 00:05:01.569 --> 00:05:03.730 have television. We didn't go to movies. We didn't 00:05:03.730 --> 00:05:06.730 go to dances. And in some ways, we were somewhat 00:05:06.730 --> 00:05:09.029 sheltered, except my mom was a believer in books. 00:05:09.069 --> 00:05:11.850 And she hauled me to the library every other 00:05:11.850 --> 00:05:14.329 week. And the house was always filled with books. 00:05:14.410 --> 00:05:16.310 And all my brothers and sisters liked books. 00:05:16.569 --> 00:05:20.170 And so that was, I read books for years voraciously, 00:05:20.189 --> 00:05:21.889 but I was all the way out of college before it 00:05:21.889 --> 00:05:23.649 ever occurred to me that the people who write 00:05:23.649 --> 00:05:27.220 books aren't all. distant mystery people from 00:05:27.220 --> 00:05:30.220 Ivy League colleges. It turns out you can grow 00:05:30.220 --> 00:05:33.300 up working on a sawmill and branding cattle and 00:05:33.300 --> 00:05:35.740 cleaning calf pens with a pitchfork and still 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:38.019 care about art and literature and writing. So 00:05:38.019 --> 00:05:42.060 that's kind of a so -called synopsis. I'm not 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:45.160 good at synopses, as you'll find out. Well, I 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.060 don't like synopses, so we're going to go back 00:05:47.060 --> 00:05:49.139 and take a deeper dive. So there's no synopsis 00:05:49.139 --> 00:05:55.470 anymore. with your parents when you look at the 00:05:55.470 --> 00:05:57.689 environment that they grew up in because i've 00:05:57.689 --> 00:06:00.810 heard you talk on podcasts before um about the 00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:03.410 kindness about the kind of the heart that you 00:06:03.410 --> 00:06:05.250 were kind of brought up as far as the philosophy 00:06:05.250 --> 00:06:09.910 of your childhood where did that come from i 00:06:09.910 --> 00:06:13.990 mean again speaking broadly but my dad would 00:06:13.990 --> 00:06:17.519 say that

in high school he was kind of a I don't 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:19.399 know. I can't say troublemaker. He didn't make 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:21.259 trouble, but he was kind of a knothead, I think 00:06:21.259 --> 00:06:24.579 is what he would say. He partied a little. And 00:06:24.579 --> 00:06:27.879 honestly, by so many standards, I think it was 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:29.920 very, very light. But in his eyes, he needed 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:35.420 some saving. And by the way, though, he was brilliant. 00:06:35.620 --> 00:06:39.300 He's a chemist by training and one of the smartest 00:06:39.300 --> 00:06:41.639 people I've ever known. Now, if you tell him 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:43.680 that, he'll deny it. And he's just a farmer, 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.180 but he's very intelligent. But he felt that he 00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:49.680 maybe needed a little more out of life than just 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:52.660 partying on a Friday night. And so he told me 00:06:52.660 --> 00:06:56.009 just recently. that he just started going through, 00:06:56.050 --> 00:06:58.389 he called it his Rolodex. Now I know he didn't 00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:01.170 have a Rolodex, but he just said, I started, 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:04.370 I needed to find someone who would help me and 00:07:04.370 --> 00:07:06.750 be strong and would make me a better person. 00:07:06.850 --> 00:07:09.009 And he said, I just kept coming back to your 00:07:09.009 --> 00:07:11.769 mom. And he kept trying to go through the list 00:07:11.769 --> 00:07:13.649 again. And he said, I just kept coming back to 00:07:13.649 --> 00:07:15.310 her. And he was, he was daunted by that because 00:07:15.310 --> 00:07:20.329 she was a woman of faith and also very smart, 00:07:20.470 --> 00:07:23.560 very good student, very kind, very gentle. But 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.699 he just said, I'm afraid that's who I need. And 00:07:26.699 --> 00:07:31.680 my mom died last year at the age of 83, 84. And 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:35.839 they had been married 63 years when she died. 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:40.120 And it was just one of those marriages that anyone 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:44.100 who gets married hopes for respect, love, affection. 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.379 My father served her in the last two years of 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:49.139 her life in ways that, you know, I'm not sure 00:07:49.139 --> 00:07:52.810 I can ever live up to. So I think he was looking 00:07:52.810 --> 00:07:55.490 for someone to help him straighten up a little 00:07:55.490 --> 00:07:58.430 bit. She was looking for someone responsible. 00:07:58.589 --> 00:08:01.110 And even he had a hard time breaking through. 00:08:01.149 --> 00:08:04.649 She turned him down a couple of times. And the 00:08:04.649 --> 00:08:07.110 other sweet irony is that my mom, they were both 00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:10.410 city kids. And my mom, growing up from the time 00:08:10.410 --> 00:08:12.269 she was little all the way through college, said, 00:08:12.350

--> 00:08:16.129 I don't care who I marry as long as I don't marry 00:08:16.129 --> 00:08:19.360 a farmer. And so she married this super smart 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:23.620 kid who was a good athlete, who went to college, 00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:26.819 got his chemistry degree, and two years into 00:08:26.819 --> 00:08:28.720 the marriage decided he wanted to be a farmer. 00:08:29.740 --> 00:08:33.620 But they, she loved the farm and she was able 00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:36.299 to die on the farm. And that was, you know, for 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:38.279 all she said, she didn't want to marry a farmer. 00:08:38.379 --> 00:08:42.139 It was, it was a wonderful life. Well, I'm so 00:08:42.139 --> 00:08:44.360 sorry to hear about your mom. My dad's on hospice 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:46.399 right now. So we're going to be dealing with 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:53.899 that soon. Yes. Brutal. Interesting kind of journey, 00:08:54.019 --> 00:08:56.000 though, with your father. So very, very smart 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.940 athlete, the city folk. What was it that despite 00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:03.279 all of this kind of framework that would set 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:05.840 him up maybe to stay in the city, maybe to chase 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:10.840 a larger salary, what was it that made him lean 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.440 into what is actually the backbone of America, 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.139 our farms? He had an uncle who had a farm up 00:09:18.139 --> 00:09:20.320 north and he used to go up there and he had very, 00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:23.340 very fond memories of farming. And I believe 00:09:23.340 --> 00:09:26.960 that played a big part in it. The second thing 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.740 was he spent two summers working in Wyoming on 00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:34.399 ranches. And he was out there for a number of 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:36.320 reasons. Number one, the people that owned the 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.299 ranches were of the same faith that he converted 00:09:38.299 --> 00:09:42.419 to, to marry my mom. But I would suspect, and 00:09:42.419 --> 00:09:44.340 as you asked me the question, I realize I've 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:46.259 never asked him, but I would suspect his experiences 00:09:46.259 --> 00:09:49.379 out there also played into it. And then ultimately, 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:52.240 one of the other factors is, and I didn't know 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.580 this until late in their marriage, he was the 00:09:55.580 --> 00:09:58.960 one that wanted a whole bunch of kids. And so... 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:01.480 I think he thought the farm was a good place 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.600 to raise them as well. And so I think all of 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:06.679 those factors played in. And then the thing that 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.200 helped him make it is he was a brilliant guy, 00:10:09.299 --> 00:10:11.659 is a brilliant guy, but obviously didn't know 00:10:11.659 --> 00:10:15.240 anything about farming. And he just hit

this 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.720 sweet spot of when American farms, they were 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:21.840 transitioning from not only tiny farms, but a 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:23.980 time when you didn't own every piece of equipment 00:10:23.980 --> 00:10:26.440 you needed. And so, for instance, their early 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:29.159 haying days. two or three different neighbors 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.500 would get together and one person would have 00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:33.539 a baler another person would have a mower and 00:10:33.539 --> 00:10:36.700 when dad showed up this raw city kid wanted to 00:10:36.700 --> 00:10:39.340 farm rather than mock him or make things hard 00:10:39.340 --> 00:10:41.039 for him he had a couple of neighbors who just 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.559 were really helpful in the early years and one 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.620 who became his his 25 year best friend with the 00:10:48.620 --> 00:10:52.419 chemistry background we know That there, of course, 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:55.340 are applications for chemistry to make the world 00:10:55.340 --> 00:10:57.620 better, but especially in the world of farming, 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:00.039 we realize now downstream effects of some of 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:04.279 the pesticides, herbicides, et cetera. It's the 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:08.200 opposite. What was his philosophy on the chemistry 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.820 world as a farmer? He had a very specific one. 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:14.120 Now, let me preface this by saying I would want 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.700 him to speak for himself on this because I'm 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:18.320 going to be hitting just a couple of superficial 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.100 points. And his take would be much more nuanced. 00:11:22.659 --> 00:11:25.379 But I remember a couple of very specific things, 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:28.700 very specifically related to your question. I 00:11:28.700 --> 00:11:30.500 mentioned those great old farmers that took him 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:32.440 under their wing. And one of the things they 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:34.799 did back in those days, they said, now we plant 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:36.840 the corn and then you just sock the atrazine 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:38.679 to it. I just remember it was called atrazine. 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:42.179 And so he did that for a few years. And, you 00:11:42.179 --> 00:11:45.600 know, in terms of production, it was an improvement 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:49.519 and it was useful. But then I still, I remember 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:52.919 him saying one time, he said, you know, I'm a 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:55.179 chemist. He said, I got to read in the label. 00:11:57.019 --> 00:11:59.620 And he didn't renounce it and he didn't go full 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:01.940 organic or anything like that, but it tempered 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:04.799 his approach going forward. So that was one very 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.539 real effect of him being a

chemist. The other 00:12:07.539 --> 00:12:09.320 was, I remember him talking about, you know, 00:12:09.340 --> 00:12:11.860 they do soil testing and what sort of nutrients 00:12:11.860 --> 00:12:14.820 does the land need? And he approached that very 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:19.899 much as a lab project. And then finally, in his 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:22.559 later years, when most of us kids were gone, 00:12:22.700 --> 00:12:25.179 he did go full organic, and he really enjoyed 00:12:25.179 --> 00:12:28.259 that. And he was not an organic evangelist. I 00:12:28.259 --> 00:12:30.100 mean, he would quickly acknowledge the pros and 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:32.580 cons and the difficulties of the organic path. 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:36.779 But I believe he truly enjoyed it, and he did 00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:39.940 it long enough that his land, he felt, had reverted. 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:42.899 Again, I'm not speaking for him, but those are 00:12:42.899 --> 00:12:46.860 my observations. it's not that often that we 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:49.279 talk to farmers anymore i had uh joel salatin 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.519 on a few times and he talked about the regenerative 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.440 agriculture and you know it's just it's full 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.019 circle it's not like they invented something 00:12:55.019 --> 00:12:57.279 new it's it's like so many of our problems that 00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.299 actually our ancestors have the solution this 00:12:59.299 --> 00:13:01.679 is having the humility to say you know what they 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.620 were right we kind of steered too far off the 00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:07.799 path Yeah, I think, well, you see that in everything, 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.279 don't you? We see it in fire and EMS. We see 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:15.059 it in tech everywhere. All these amazing solutions 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.480 to problems that maybe we didn't need to have. 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:25.200 Absolutely. With the fostering, there's a story 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:26.460 and I need to reach out to him. I'm trying to 00:13:26.460 --> 00:13:28.879 get him on one day, but there is a Muslim man 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.500 in Los Angeles who has quietly adopted. so many 00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:36.139 special needs children throughout the years, 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:38.440 I think for like 20, 30 years. And he's a single 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:42.120 man, I believe. That is not obviously what a 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.500 lot of foster parents are initially looking for 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.419 is an older child or a child with special needs. 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.440 Again, talk to me about your foster brothers 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.159 and sisters and what that family dynamic looked 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:58.509 like. I cherish that dynamic because And it's 00:13:58.509 --> 00:14:01.830 difficult to speak about it in terms that don't 00:14:01.830 --> 00:14:04.470 upset someone.

I'll just make my way through. 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:09.690 Number one, it just was a very early lesson about 00:14:09.690 --> 00:14:14.029 how life is doled out and it's not doled out 00:14:14.029 --> 00:14:18.389 evenly. And I had siblings who were born with 00:14:18.389 --> 00:14:21.070 profound challenges. I had siblings that were 00:14:21.070 --> 00:14:25.529 born fine and then through abuse were left with 00:14:25.529 --> 00:14:29.629 a lifelong. incapacitating injuries and damage. 00:14:30.970 --> 00:14:34.710 I learned about, you know, as I said earlier, 00:14:34.929 --> 00:14:38.950 we were technically poor, but I came to understand 00:14:38.950 --> 00:14:42.590 very early that there's an economic definition 00:14:42.590 --> 00:14:45.330 of that, and then there's a definition in the 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:48.610 heart and the spirit. And then I think, you know, 00:14:48.710 --> 00:14:53.549 I remember my one sister had some... Had a condition 00:14:53.549 --> 00:14:57.370 that caused her to have some eye surgeries that 00:14:57.370 --> 00:15:00.750 reconfigured her face. And I remember intervening 00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:03.309 when kids would tease her. And so it kind of 00:15:03.309 --> 00:15:05.929 taught you to try to make a stand. But it also 00:15:05.929 --> 00:15:08.009 taught you what it was like to sometimes maybe 00:15:08.009 --> 00:15:09.950 not take a stand when you should have. So you 00:15:09.950 --> 00:15:13.830 learned some humility there. And then I mentioned, 00:15:13.909 --> 00:15:18.289 too, this is the part that's tricky. And so many 00:15:18.289 --> 00:15:24.440 of my siblings growing up. had very unusual mannerisms 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:27.820 and expressed themselves in very unusual, sometimes 00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:33.000 loud, attention -grabbing ways. And I just learned 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.460 early, and I'm speaking for, I think, most of 00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:39.500 my siblings, to accept that as normal. And there's 00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:43.700 sometimes I'm caught off guard sometimes when 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:45.320 someone like that will present in public and 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.399 you'll see people moving away or being fearful. 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:50.759 And I just am grateful that I grew up in a place 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.700 where I just go, oh, yeah, that's Bob. Bob always 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:59.179 does that. Bob's fine. So I think it was just 00:15:59.179 --> 00:16:02.679 that without it being an overt lesson, you just 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.759 understood that life is uncertain. Life takes 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:08.960 place on many different levels, and it's not 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.419 always fair, and that you should retain some 00:16:11.419 --> 00:16:14.860 humility in that regard. I think there's a lot 00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:17.440 of lessons as a nation from what you just said, 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:20.740 as far as the understanding what wealth really 00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:25.419 is, the gratitude element and celebrating the 00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:28.460 diversity of everyone here, whether it's, you 00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:31.240 know, color, creed, religion, you know, if there 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:33.879 are special needs, whatever the areas are. And 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:35.980 this is actually one of the things I think that 00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:38.720 has got a lot better overall and arguably probably 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.980 because of some of the wars. the special needs 00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:44.480 community, the adaptive community. We've watched 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.000 them go from, well, they need to be in an institution 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.700 somewhere to now. Like I had a young man, Chris 00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:54.259 Nickich on the show, Down syndrome, Ironman triathlete. 00:16:54.259 --> 00:16:56.940 I mean, phenomenal human being. So what we're 00:16:56.940 --> 00:16:59.820 seeing now and the acknowledgement, I think, 00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:02.240 has grown. And I think that's coming from the 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:04.980 kindness, compassion community that is at the 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:07.740 core of who we really are. Well, and it needs 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.680 to be maintained by... Us as individuals, too, 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:13.960 because cultural sentiments wax and wane. They 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:17.160 go through waves. And, you know, I think we see 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.200 that. And at the end of the day, it just comes 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.799 down to how you as a person are treating folks. 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.500 And sometimes people will approach me and say, 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.059 well, I'm this or I'm that. And I always say, 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.079 well, I'm going to watch how you treat my family. 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:35.319 And then I'll watch how you treat my neighbors. 00:17:36.220 --> 00:17:38.319 Just in third, I'll watch how you treat me and 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:40.960 then I'll decide if you're that. And I don't 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:42.839 mean that in a cocky way. I just mean, I'm just 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.000 going to quietly assess the situation. Thank 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.259 you very much. Absolutely. Actions speak louder 00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:52.380 than words, as they say. I grew up on a farm 00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:56.039 and that was a veterinary surgeon. So I had sheep, 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.140 horses, poultry, all the things. So I wasn't 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:03.859 a cowboy per se and I wasn't branding or anything 00:18:03.859 --> 00:18:06.180 like that. But the same kind of lifestyle in 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:09.900 a very cold, wet, gloomy country that I adore. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.680 But I look back and I think about all the attributes 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.400 that I got from that that served me well in the 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.299 fire service

and other areas that I ended up 00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:23.480 being in. When you reflect back now, what were 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.079 those elements you think that have kind of paved 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.039 forward to this path now that you're on? Man, 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:34.539 they're countless. And I said early on in this 00:18:34.539 --> 00:18:37.059 interview, I have a hard time with giving good 00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:40.720 short answers because I've basically made a life 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.880 and a living out of going off on tangents. And 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.420 I never, ever. You know, people say, well, have 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:49.359 your dreams come true or did you accomplish your 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.019 goals? And I said, I haven't set a goal in my 00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:56.380 life other than lunch. And I don't mean, again, 00:18:56.539 --> 00:18:58.579 I don't mean that blithely. I don't mean if you're 00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:01.059 a goal -oriented person, absolutely, if that 00:19:01.059 --> 00:19:03.099 works for you. I have friends like that, you 00:19:03.099 --> 00:19:05.160 know, just cross them off. And 20 years later, 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.019 you're like, they've made it. They've done an 00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:09.980 amazing thing. I just was always one of those 00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:12.059 people that just got up in the morning and whatever 00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:15.279 happened, you'd navigate it. Even, you know, 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.059 I went to nursing school, not because I was driven 00:19:17.059 --> 00:19:19.200 to be a nurse. My mom was a nurse, as I mentioned. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:21.200 You know, I had siblings that I was, because 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:24.000 I was the eldest son and dad had to stay home 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.319 and take care of the farm, I would accompany 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:27.579 mom to the hospital. I had a little sister with 00:19:27.579 --> 00:19:29.680 Down syndrome who had many open heart surgeries. 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.480 And I, as the eldest, I would go with mom when 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.220 she had to go to the big city with my little 00:19:34.220 --> 00:19:36.799 sister to have surgeries. And so I was very familiar 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.579 with nursing and what it was and what it wasn't. 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:43.380 And I enjoyed working as a nurse. But this other 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:45.519 thing came up and I thought, well, I'll try writing. 00:19:45.579 --> 00:19:48.279 And in six months, I'll just come back to nursing 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:49.559 because there's no way I'm going to make a living 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.599 as a writer. But I followed that tangent and 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:54.680 just wound up there. So when I look back as a 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:58.019 kid, it isn't that there was any one signal moment. 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:02.700 It was all these little, I think it started with 00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:06.490 my folks being people. a very deep and very specific 00:20:06.490 --> 00:20:09.670 faith and over time i drifted away from that 00:20:09.670 --> 00:20:13.930 but i retained that foundation that i knew that 00:20:13.930 --> 00:20:16.309 to them it was important to have certain standards 00:20:16.309 --> 00:20:20.910 and and certain you know i mentioned earlier 00:20:20.910 --> 00:20:24.109 by definition it was a fundamentalist christian 00:20:24.109 --> 00:20:27.650 sect but my parents tried to teach us two things 00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:31.650 above all charity and humility and when i say 00:20:31.650 --> 00:20:33.529 charity i'm not talking about a buck in the jar 00:20:33.529 --> 00:20:36.089 i'm talking about charity to your fellow humans 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:38.950 if that person fell if that person did something 00:20:38.950 --> 00:20:41.069 wrong you know can you see yourself in their 00:20:41.069 --> 00:20:43.730 shoes and can you try to help and then humility 00:20:43.730 --> 00:20:46.730 which is an interesting one for me and it's caused 00:20:46.730 --> 00:20:49.289 a little discomfort between my father and i is 00:20:49.289 --> 00:20:54.339 that i'm i try to be humble but i'm a self -employed 00:20:54.339 --> 00:20:56.940 writer and speaker and performer. So I have to 00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:01.579 say, you know, you really ought to spend 25 bucks 00:21:01.579 --> 00:21:03.660 and see me at the Stoughton Opera House because 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:06.140 you're going to love it. Well, that's not very 00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:10.740 humble. But it was that general openness just 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:13.519 to other people and other opportunities. And 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.839 then I think the other thing that really helped 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.400 me was just growing up on a farm, slinging manure. 00:21:22.159 --> 00:21:24.799 making firewood. If you want to be warm when 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:26.920 it's 20 below, then you better have gone and 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:28.900 gotten some firewood and put it in the fire. 00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:32.720 And that really helped me when I got to the art 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.519 world, because I think a lot of artists are a 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.940 lot, not all. But if you come into, say, I'll 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:45.140 use writing as an example. If you come into writing 00:21:45.140 --> 00:21:47.119 with a perception of yourself as what I call 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.369 a capital W writer, Then you have this whole 00:21:50.369 --> 00:21:52.750 set of expectations and people aren't actually 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:55.690 that interested anymore. Whereas I came in through 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:58.890 the side door and was just so happy to be there 00:21:58.890 --> 00:22:00.890 and still am. I get up in the morning and I want 00:22:00.890 --> 00:22:03.029 to write and I realize, oh, that's what I get 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:07.769 to do. It was

that blue collar working class 00:22:07.769 --> 00:22:09.769 attitude. You just show up and what are we doing 00:22:09.769 --> 00:22:12.109 today? Let's do it so that we can get on to the 00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:15.829 next thing. And that too can become self -aggrandizing, 00:22:15.890 --> 00:22:19.940 but from a very foundational aspect. That background, 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.200 the farm background, the work hard physically 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:26.180 background, just heightened my appreciation for 00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:28.180 the joy of being able to sit down for six hours 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:31.579 and try to write a line of a poem. So again, 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:33.700 I haven't really answered your question. It was 00:22:33.700 --> 00:22:36.279 just that general, and then the books. Mom filled 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.980 the house with books. And so my head was filled 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:42.039 with other worlds long before I left the farm. 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:44.420 I grew up reading Louis L 'Amour cowboy books. 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:47.039 I couldn't wait to go to Wyoming and see mountains 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.339 from a distance because I'd never seen mountains. 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.279 And there was a book called To the Far Blue Mountains. 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.839 And I was like, blue mountains? What does that 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:56.920 mean? And then you get out west and you see mountains 00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:58.779 from a distance and you go, oh, they are blue. 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:02.579 So it was little things like that that were planted. 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.279 And then my mom had a pen pal from the time she 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.779 was, I think, nine or ten. until she died last 00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:15.279 year at 84, she had a pen pal in England. And 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.380 they wrote back and forth, and we had this great 00:23:17.380 --> 00:23:20.220 mystery of England. What is England? And then 00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:23.140 when I was, I think, 16, my mom and dad went 00:23:23.140 --> 00:23:24.960 over on the one vacation I ever knew them to 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.640 take, and they visited England. That led to me 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:29.960 going to England and going many, many times, 00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:32.359 and one of my dearest, dearest friends ever was 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:37.660 an Englishman. So, again, why am I talking about 00:23:37.660 --> 00:23:40.420 this? It's just that... There was just this kind 00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:42.819 of general idea that I grew up in a loving place, 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:45.599 and if something came up I was interested in, 00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:49.240 I just pursued it. And I remember being out of 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:51.640 college with a nursing degree and I had quit 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:54.950 my nursing job, a very good job. to act in the 00:23:54.950 --> 00:23:57.089 local community theater because I was kind of 00:23:57.089 --> 00:23:58.650 starting to write and I was kind of trying to 00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:01.430 understand that art world that I had no understanding 00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:03.109 of. And so I thought, well, I'll do some community 00:24:03.109 --> 00:24:05.869 theater. And I remember my dad not lecturing 00:24:05.869 --> 00:24:08.109 me and not being angry, but just concerned, I 00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:09.430 think. And he just said, well, it just seems 00:24:09.430 --> 00:24:11.630 like you just want to try everything. And I remember 00:24:11.630 --> 00:24:18.990 saying, yes, I do. I can relate completely. I 00:24:18.990 --> 00:24:22.369 mean that. when a door opens, you just walk through 00:24:22.369 --> 00:24:24.809 it mentality. Like when I was young, I wanted 00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:28.849 to be a stuntman, a firefighter, a doctor. And 00:24:28.849 --> 00:24:30.890 I became all of them now, not a real doctor, 00:24:30.950 --> 00:24:33.289 I became a street doctor, as I say, a paramedic. 00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:35.509 But you know, I ended up doing stunts and all 00:24:35.509 --> 00:24:37.470 these kind of things. And it was just because 00:24:37.470 --> 00:24:40.789 I never hung on to the one thing like, okay, 00:24:40.789 --> 00:24:42.809 this is what I'm going to do forever now. And 00:24:42.809 --> 00:24:45.990 this is one of the my criticism of the professional, 00:24:46.130 --> 00:24:51.440 the career fire service is the lifespan of a 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:54.400 firefighter's career is dictated not by the fire 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.960 in their heart, but by a pension company that 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.400 says you have to stay this amount of time for 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.539 you to get your money. And so there's a lot of 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:04.220 people that do it and they still have that fire 00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:06.980 burning in their heart. But how many opportunities 00:25:06.980 --> 00:25:10.099 have opened up along the way, maybe at 18 years 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:13.519 where it could have set them down. a new a new 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.359 path a new exciting path so i think this is what's 00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:18.240 interesting with what i'm trying to push at the 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.980 moment which is a a better work week for the 00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:23.319 fire service 42 hours a week so they get an extra 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.299 24 in between their shifts because then i think 00:25:26.299 --> 00:25:29.440 that nurtures entrepreneurship and exploration 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:32.500 and you know and and courage to try different 00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:34.599 things and then maybe that will help them transition 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:39.039 early or at the end of their career but We kind 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:41.420 of get locked in. OK, this is what not just what 00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:44.339 I do. This is what I am now. I am a firefighter. 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:47.420

And you're not. You're someone who is a firefighter 00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:50.579 that can do so many other things as well. I think 00:25:50.579 --> 00:25:53.619 that applies to me being a writer. So there's 00:25:53.619 --> 00:25:57.259 no question that I'm a writer. As I said, I think 00:25:57.259 --> 00:26:00.299 of it as a small W, writer, but I'm a writer. 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:02.200 And no matter what I'm doing, whether I'm doing 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:05.700 a one -man humor show at a small theater, whether 00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:08.519 I'm speaking at a corporate event, whether I'm 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:10.700 publishing a book with HarperCollins, whether 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:13.619 I'm self -publishing a book, whether I'm doing 00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:18.859 my weekly sub stack, a podcast. I am a writer. 00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:22.740 It begins with a writer. But you can tell by 00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:24.759 just the things I listed, I learned a long time 00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:27.759 ago, if I want to survive as a writer, I can't 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:30.480 just try to write the great American novel. I 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:32.819 also had to write some used car ads in my day. 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:36.220 I had a newspaper column for nine and a half 00:26:36.220 --> 00:26:38.680 years and I saw the end coming. And so rather 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.660 than get angry or sad, I just started a sub stack 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.160 and got it going for two years so that I had 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.339 an off ramp and it merged very nicely. And so 00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:53.359 adapting to change and being open to new possibilities 00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.460 rather than just, if I just rigidly had to think 00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:59.769 of myself as sitting at my desk. And writing 00:26:59.769 --> 00:27:03.890 nothing but the next great novel, well, for one 00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:05.450 thing, it would be hard to put my kids through 00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:10.890 college. I heard you on another podcast talking 00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:14.190 about that. And this is interesting because I 00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:18.829 basically cashed out my pension to continue the 00:27:18.829 --> 00:27:21.609 podcast, ultimately wrote two books as well. 00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:24.750 But as anyone listening, I'm sure none of those 00:27:24.750 --> 00:27:28.990 are going to make money. Someone said the problem 00:27:28.990 --> 00:27:31.430 is there's a difference between being humble 00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:34.609 and being meek. And he said at the moment you're 00:27:34.609 --> 00:27:36.210 being meek because I don't want to put myself 00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:39.549 out there. I feel like we'll just let the stories 00:27:39.549 --> 00:27:41.869 and the podcast do the talking and it's there 00:27:41.869 --> 00:27:45.250 when people need it. But at the same time, you 00:27:45.250 --> 00:27:48.690 do have to pay the bills. They tend to throw 00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:50.029 you out your house if you don't pay your mortgage, 00:27:50.109 --> 00:27:52.829 that kind of thing. But I heard you kind of struggling 00:27:52.829 --> 00:27:57.390 with that yourself. So what was that point? where 00:27:57.390 --> 00:27:59.549 you had to kind of do that self -exploration 00:27:59.549 --> 00:28:02.390 and realizing that the way that you paid the 00:28:02.390 --> 00:28:04.690 bills, the way that you were then able to write 00:28:04.690 --> 00:28:07.029 more books and make sure your family were clothed 00:28:07.029 --> 00:28:10.049 and fed involved actually putting yourself out 00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:12.789 there? I mean, there's a lot of signs. Number 00:28:12.789 --> 00:28:15.730 one, and I do have to say, I had some very great 00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.730 privileges when I started out. I was dead broke 00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:22.190 and I was broke for many years, but I had no 00:28:22.190 --> 00:28:26.059 debt. I had a nursing license and degree, so 00:28:26.059 --> 00:28:30.240 I could get a good paying job in almost moments. 00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:33.160 I could pick up the phone and get hired. So I 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:35.279 don't want to overstate. I have a line in one 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.660 of my books where I said, when I quit my last 00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:41.359 job in 1992, that was the last job where I had 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.519 a paycheck come every two weeks. And I said, 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:47.339 when I quit that job, I was basically, I jumped 00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:49.720 out of the airplane and started knitting my parachute 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.269 on the way down. And that's a great little saying. 00:28:53.430 --> 00:28:55.470 But the fact is, again, I want to make clear. 00:28:55.549 --> 00:28:57.710 And whenever I do these podcasts, I just feel 00:28:57.710 --> 00:29:00.089 a need to say, if I get going here and I say 00:29:00.089 --> 00:29:03.089 something where I sound like I'm the one with, 00:29:03.150 --> 00:29:06.690 no, I've made so many mistakes. And what works 00:29:06.690 --> 00:29:10.930 for me doesn't apply to everybody else. But what 00:29:10.930 --> 00:29:15.960 made me realize it is I just. I remember I had 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:20.200 rent and I just remember realizing, oh, I tried 00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:22.660 to sell some essays. And I did. One of the very 00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:25.559 first essays I ever tried to sell, I sold the 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.160 first try. That's unheard of. Now, the great 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.799 lesson that I learned from that is that having 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.839 an essay accepted by a magazine and having them 00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:37.220 tell you how much they're going to pay for that 00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:41.460 essay. is markedly different from when that essay 00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:44.240 finally gets printed and then when the check 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:46.779 for that essay

ultimately arrives. Because in 00:29:46.779 --> 00:29:48.960 that case, I sold the very first essay I ever 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.619 pitched and got paid for it two years later. 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:55.180 So that was a good lesson. And in the meantime, 00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:58.000 the local radio station needs someone to write 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:01.480 used car ad copy. And I'm happy to do it because 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:03.720 it's writing. It's like I work with a lot of 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.569 musicians over the years. I always say writing, 00:30:06.589 --> 00:30:09.529 I used to write chapters for medical legal textbooks. 00:30:09.690 --> 00:30:12.730 So there I am taking my nursing license and my 00:30:12.730 --> 00:30:16.089 writer's abilities and combining them. And it 00:30:16.089 --> 00:30:18.970 was pretty mind numbing writing, but I was writing. 00:30:19.049 --> 00:30:21.890 And I know musicians who are professionals, they 00:30:21.890 --> 00:30:24.130 make a living at it, but they still do their 00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:27.650 chords. They still do their scales and work on 00:30:27.650 --> 00:30:30.849 their progressions. And you're always working 00:30:30.849 --> 00:30:34.710 those muscles. So I think it was just, I wanted. 00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:38.119 What really drove me more than the rent was I 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.839 really have a burning desire to write. And it's 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:43.299 a very Midwestern Scandinavian burning desire. 00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:46.900 You can't tell looking at me. But I always say 00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:49.359 I've worked with so many people over the years. 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:51.380 And I think back to the early days when I first 00:30:51.380 --> 00:30:53.559 started doing open mics and reading with other 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.500 people. And I know so many people and knew so 00:30:57.500 --> 00:30:59.460 many people who are far more talented than I. 00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:01.980 And that's not self -deprecation. It's the truth. 00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:07.220 But for whatever reason, I just don't want to 00:31:07.220 --> 00:31:09.980 quit. And I always say I'm that guy where, and 00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:13.039 I think I maybe wrote about this, where nobody 00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.259 notices me at the starting line because I'm just 00:31:15.259 --> 00:31:18.799 not that fast looking. But then like three years 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.660 later, they look down and go, you're still here? 00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:25.349 Like, yeah. And that gets back to that farming 00:31:25.349 --> 00:31:27.289 thing. It's just like one hay bale at a time, 00:31:27.369 --> 00:31:29.910 one fork full of manure at a time. And then eventually, 00:31:29.950 --> 00:31:32.750 as I wrote once, you've got a pile so big, somebody 00:31:32.750 --> 00:31:35.990 has to know this. Yeah, I can relate. I'm at 00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:38.690 almost 1300 episodes of the podcast now, but 00:31:38.690 --> 00:31:40.990 I don't have a million dollar budget or a fancy 00:31:40.990 --> 00:31:44.349 suit for the interview. So I just have insurance. 00:31:44.950 --> 00:31:48.170 I always say I remember, I think. of it in terms 00:31:48.170 --> 00:31:50.930 of horizons and you know the financial horizon 00:31:50.930 --> 00:31:52.869 of what you're doing and i remember those early 00:31:52.869 --> 00:31:57.069 days it was 48 hours maybe a week and then it 00:31:57.069 --> 00:31:59.230 was one day all of a sudden it was a month and 00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:01.289 then a couple few years in it was six months 00:32:01.289 --> 00:32:04.470 and so hopefully that horizon keeps keeps going 00:32:04.470 --> 00:32:07.009 and i think the other you know just to answer 00:32:07.009 --> 00:32:09.069 more specifically your question about what are 00:32:09.069 --> 00:32:11.170 the lessons that taught you you need to adapt 00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:15.140 and you need to be willing to I sometimes feel 00:32:15.140 --> 00:32:17.640 embarrassed that I'm not purely artistic because 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.900 I do know people who are purely artistic and 00:32:19.900 --> 00:32:22.160 they create amazing things that are good for 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.839 all of us. So again, this is not Mike Perry saying 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:27.019 you shouldn't be, you should be a pure artist 00:32:27.019 --> 00:32:29.900 if you can. But another thing that just helped 00:32:29.900 --> 00:32:31.539 me understand that I was probably going to have 00:32:31.539 --> 00:32:33.880 to do some other stuff is I've had, you know, 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:36.460 population 45. That was my first book with Harper 00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:39.920 Collins has sold more copies than I ever thought 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:42.799 it would because I never even thought about it. 00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:47.180 I don't even say that I ever dreamed it would 00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:49.140 because I didn't have those dreams. I just wrote 00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:51.539 a book and then I write the next book. I've also 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:53.519 had a book on the New York Times bestseller list. 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.460 What teaches you that you need to still pay attention 00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:58.579 to the little details and maybe take in some 00:32:58.579 --> 00:33:00.920 extra work is that I get a royalty check for 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:06.440 my books every six months. And having written 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.000 a book that sold far more than I'd ever expect, 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:10.460 having written a book that was on the New York 00:33:10.460 --> 00:33:15.220 Times list. my royalty checks at best are low 00:33:15.220 --> 00:33:18.640 four figures. And so I'll have people sometimes, 00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:20.759 I had a woman lecture me once because I wrote 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:22.240 in, I think it was the book Coop, I wrote about 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.359 being on the road a lot and wondering

how that 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:26.920 would affect my kids. And I got a very nasty 00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:28.579 letter from this woman who said, I read your 00:33:28.579 --> 00:33:30.339 book and you're always complaining about being 00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:31.960 on the road. I wasn't complaining, I was just 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.740 explaining. I love the road. But she said, I've 00:33:36.740 --> 00:33:38.500 read your books and you're always talking about 00:33:38.500 --> 00:33:40.579 being away from your children and your family. 00:33:40.660 --> 00:33:42.660 And she goes, You should be ashamed of yourself. 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.180 You should be at home with them living off your 00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:48.660 royalties. And I remember going, I agree. How 00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:51.319 can we make that happen? It's the address you 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.880 can send the check to. That's right. So, yeah, 00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.680 again, it gets back to there's a certain amount 00:33:57.680 --> 00:33:59.559 of pragmatism. I think I have a certain amount 00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:03.259 of inborn pragmatism where I'd love to just write 00:34:03.259 --> 00:34:05.559 what's coming out of my head every day, but I 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:09.659 also know that we have an electric bill. Absolutely. 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:11.719 And I think that that then circles around to 00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:14.940 why you write, why you do a podcast, you know, 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.820 why you create a documentary. If it's, I've had 00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:20.239 people, this is rare. Usually people have reached 00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:21.519 out to me and say, hey, I'm thinking of starting 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.380 a podcast and this is why. And I'm like, then 00:34:23.380 --> 00:34:25.400 do it. And I will bend over backwards to help 00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:28.079 you because the world needs all the voices. There's 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:29.920 people that my voice is probably like nails on 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:31.519 a chalkboard to them and they can't listen to 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:36.699 mine and then vice versa. It's when people in 00:34:36.699 --> 00:34:38.239 the second question be like, well, how did you 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:40.539 monetize it? Okay, well, you're already on the 00:34:40.539 --> 00:34:42.679 wrong path. And it's the same with writing. I 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.760 went in with the book writing just like yourself. 00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:48.800 I just want to convey some of these stories from 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.559 my career coupled with all the knowledge from 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.179 all these amazing guests to people around the 00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:55.650 world. So they can learn these lessons and hopefully 00:34:55.650 --> 00:34:57.849 it will save a life or change your life. And 00:34:57.849 --> 00:34:59.650 that was it. And if it makes enough to cover 00:34:59.650 --> 00:35:01.909 the editing and the

publishing, then fantastic. 00:35:02.230 --> 00:35:04.070 You know, I just did Amazon. So very, very small 00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:07.630 budget. But as you know, to your point, I've 00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:10.510 realized as I started going into the book writing 00:35:10.510 --> 00:35:13.670 world, I look behind the curtain and like, oh. 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:16.820 oh, it's not all millionaires back here. You've 00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:19.619 got a few and everyone else is. So then it goes 00:35:19.619 --> 00:35:21.099 back to, all right, well, then why are you really 00:35:21.099 --> 00:35:23.780 doing this? If you want to write a story, then 00:35:23.780 --> 00:35:25.920 you're going to write it whether you sell one 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.260 or a million copies, as long as it makes a positive 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:31.239 impact on someone's life. Well, and the dynamic 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.659 has changed profoundly. So in 2002, I use that 00:35:34.659 --> 00:35:37.000 as a marker because that's when my book, Population 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.239 485, came out. And that was with HarperCollins. 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.920 And I remember at the time there was this little 00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:46.219 thing called Amazon happening. And I wasn't really 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:49.380 sure what it was or how it would affect me. And 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:52.659 now, you know, fast forward, A, self -publishing 00:35:52.659 --> 00:35:54.980 has become very easy. And I got started self 00:35:54.980 --> 00:35:57.179 -publishing. I self -published four books before 00:35:57.179 --> 00:35:59.260 I ever got a book deal with a bigger publisher. 00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:01.679 And back in the day, you know, I had to find 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.219 someone who could do layout. It was a major undertaking. 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.539 I had to go to a local print shop that didn't 00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:08.179 normally print books and we had to figure out 00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:10.599 how to print books. And then I had to print enough 00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:12.760 of them that the price point was such that I 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:16.280 could justify selling them. But also then that 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:18.579 meant I had a pallet of a thousand of my unsold 00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:21.500 books in my garage. I had to find a way. And 00:36:21.500 --> 00:36:24.880 so. Fast forward again, self -publishing has 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.119 become very easy, and that's good news because 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:29.420 the gates are down. Anybody that wants to do 00:36:29.420 --> 00:36:31.239 a book can do it, and you should be able to. 00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:35.159 But you also find, and now AI is generating. 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.199 as many books as you want in a day. And they're 00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:40.599 showing up on Amazon and it's creating real issues 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.239 and real problems. And I get deluged. I get so 00:36:44.239

--> 00:36:46.760 many people asking me for advice on publishing 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:48.860 and a, they want me to read their manuscript. 00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:51.079 Well, I can't get my own work done. And so I 00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.599 look like a bad guy. I was like, no, I, I can't 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:55.380 blurb your book or I can't read it because I, 00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:57.900 my day is completely occupied just with my own 00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:01.119 work. But the other thing is I get that same 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:02.860 thing sometimes where someone will say, well, 00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:04.980 how do you do it? And then the second question 00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:08.880 is, how do I get an agent? And I can tell it's 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.800 not that that's the wrong question. It's just 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:13.940 that if that's where you're at already, A, agents 00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:16.860 have lost agency in the current environment. 00:37:16.900 --> 00:37:20.539 And B, I got my agent by accident. I just wrote 00:37:20.539 --> 00:37:22.980 for 10 years and she read something and tracked 00:37:22.980 --> 00:37:25.760 me down. I've never successfully pitched an agent. 00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.079 with the proliferation today of whether it's 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.880 ai books whether it's everybody publishing their 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.139 own self -publishing um and then even the major 00:37:38.139 --> 00:37:40.159 publishers and i'm speaking in very general terms 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.039 here but you know i was able to break through 00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:45.059 just because someone saw something i wrote and 00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:48.429 they were willing to work with me Nowadays, how 00:37:48.429 --> 00:37:50.710 many Instagram followers do you have before we 00:37:50.710 --> 00:37:53.789 even start talking a deal? And so I'd be cooked. 00:37:53.949 --> 00:37:57.289 But so I'm trying to just say that things have 00:37:57.289 --> 00:38:00.530 changed so much. And it's the classic good news, 00:38:00.570 --> 00:38:03.230 bad news. But the key thing is you have to navigate 00:38:03.230 --> 00:38:05.530 it. You can be angry about it. You can be frightened. 00:38:06.329 --> 00:38:08.449 But really, that doesn't help. You just have 00:38:08.449 --> 00:38:10.210 to navigate. And that's what I'm always trying 00:38:10.210 --> 00:38:12.090 to do. I was going to dispel one other myth to 00:38:12.090 --> 00:38:16.090 all of my books now. Quite rightly, and I'm happy 00:38:16.090 --> 00:38:18.969 to say, if you got a book that's been published 00:38:18.969 --> 00:38:21.889 in the last few years, it says New York Times 00:38:21.889 --> 00:38:25.090 bestselling author Michael Perry. And what a 00:38:25.090 --> 00:38:26.969 wonderful moment that was. I remember getting 00:38:26.969 --> 00:38:29.869 that email from my agent. But then I also love 00:38:29.869 --> 00:38:35.880 to say I was number 21 for one week. And then 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.619 I disappeared into the ether, but I was there. 00:38:38.940 --> 00:38:42.139 So yeah, even that, it's a lovely and wonderful 00:38:42.139 --> 00:38:44.880 thing to be able to say, but even that, everything 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:49.670 is qualified. I saw the same on Amazon. If you 00:38:49.670 --> 00:38:52.909 first put a book on Amazon, literally for a day, 00:38:52.949 --> 00:38:55.809 if everyone that follows you is, or I hate that 00:38:55.809 --> 00:38:58.590 word, is in your community, is looking to buy 00:38:58.590 --> 00:39:01.230 the book, then for that day, yeah, you're a bestseller. 00:39:01.349 --> 00:39:03.489 And I've seen people say bestselling author. 00:39:03.650 --> 00:39:05.489 I don't put that on mine because it was, I don't 00:39:05.489 --> 00:39:07.409 know, eight hours or whatever it was. That doesn't 00:39:07.409 --> 00:39:10.250 qualify. If maybe for several weeks at a time, 00:39:10.329 --> 00:39:14.730 then yeah, then maybe I will. I was number one 00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:18.719 in... middle -aged guys with ball caps who write 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:22.659 about first responding in rural America. Yeah. 00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:24.539 Yeah, exactly. I've always said I've got the 00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:27.579 number one podcast about the fire service from 00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:31.079 a British immigrant in the U S that lives in 00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.730 Ocala, Florida, like smashing it. Killing that 00:39:34.730 --> 00:39:38.309 category, as they say. Absolutely. But the Instagram 00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:40.369 thing is funny because I published my second 00:39:40.369 --> 00:39:42.809 book two years ago. I had quarter of a million 00:39:42.809 --> 00:39:46.190 people on Instagram and they shut me down about 00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:48.909 two weeks before I released my book. So because 00:39:48.909 --> 00:39:51.050 I was preaching kindness and community and all 00:39:51.050 --> 00:39:53.409 the stuff the algorithm hates. So yeah, it's 00:39:53.409 --> 00:39:55.010 funny. Even if you have that good following, 00:39:55.110 --> 00:39:56.590 it's not a guarantee that you're going to have 00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:58.570 it the day your book comes out. That's another 00:39:58.570 --> 00:40:01.090 thing about navigation. So I don't have a lot 00:40:01.090 --> 00:40:04.050 of followers and yet we've grown them organically 00:40:04.050 --> 00:40:06.010 slowly. And so far I haven't been shut down, 00:40:06.070 --> 00:40:07.730 but there's two things. Number one, as you just 00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:10.449 said, you're at the, it's easy to forget you're 00:40:10.449 --> 00:40:13.429 at the whim of a giant corporation and algorithms. 00:40:13.550 --> 00:40:16.960 And that's not. That's not a conspiracy talk. 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:20.099 That's just how it works. And one of the things 00:40:20.099 --> 00:40:23.260 that we do over and over is we ask people to 00:40:23.260 --> 00:40:26.019 please just

go to sneezingcow .com, my website, 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.340 and sign up for the old -fashioned email list 00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:31.699 because we have the same thing. We'll put up 00:40:31.699 --> 00:40:34.400 a post, and you just notice it just disappears. 00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.400 And the same people who normally like your stuff 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:39.500 disappear as well. And so you know that, again, 00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:41.679 you're not being conspiratorial. You just, whatever 00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:44.489 happened, it didn't trip the right trigger. And 00:40:44.489 --> 00:40:46.210 then the other navigational point with that is 00:40:46.210 --> 00:40:48.030 that I go through stages where I want to just 00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:50.289 do away with social media completely because, 00:40:50.329 --> 00:40:53.130 A, I'm not that good at it. I have a teenage 00:40:53.130 --> 00:40:55.289 daughter, so I know I'm not that good at it. 00:40:55.550 --> 00:40:59.110 And I'm not that good at it. And we don't have 00:40:59.110 --> 00:41:03.309 billions of followers. It generates just enough, 00:41:03.369 --> 00:41:05.710 and it helps my live events just enough, and 00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:08.190 it helps move the books just enough. Can't make 00:41:08.190 --> 00:41:10.670 a living off it, but it's one of those multiple 00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:13.010 streams, revenue streams, I guess you call it. 00:41:13.329 --> 00:41:15.449 So you're right. It's a tough one to navigate 00:41:15.449 --> 00:41:18.530 if you're not either at the utter apex or just 00:41:18.530 --> 00:41:21.210 putting up pictures of your, I don't know, whatever 00:41:21.210 --> 00:41:25.329 I say, I'll make someone mad. That's the problem. 00:41:25.369 --> 00:41:27.050 You can put pictures of your, and you'll stay 00:41:27.050 --> 00:41:28.889 on Instagram, but if you talk about kindness 00:41:28.889 --> 00:41:30.539 and compassion, then they'll... They'll shut 00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:32.360 you down. See, there's the thunder in my background 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:35.519 now. The clockwork. It's thundering in harmony. 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.800 That's pretty nice. All right. Well, I want to 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:42.519 get to your journey into the volunteer fire service. 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:44.239 I know there are members of your family that 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:46.599 were also in the same department. So talk to 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:50.760 me about that. Firstly, as a young man, did you 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.639 have any exposure to the volunteers as far as 00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:55.840 responding to you? And then what was your actual 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:58.739 journey in? I had one significant experience 00:41:58.739 --> 00:42:01.599 of the local fire department. And at the time, 00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:05.719 I was too little and naive to understand the 00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:11.219 significance of it. But my dad, I mentioned he 00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:14.639 was a young farmer from the city. But this isn't 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:17.219 his fault because he put up an electric fence. 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:21.039 And back in those days, they used to sell what 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:24.260 they called a weed burner. electric fence and 00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:26.239 it had something to do with it's the the charge 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:27.980 stayed in there a little longer and it was supposed 00:42:27.980 --> 00:42:31.079 to kill any weed that touched against it so that 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.380 then you didn't lose any juice well that was 00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:39.460 great unless the weeds were dry So my first exposure 00:42:39.460 --> 00:42:41.880 was, and I was very, very young, so I think I 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.920 actually mostly remember this from pictures my 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.840 parents took. But the electric fence sparked 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.300 a grass fire, and then we lived in a very wooded 00:42:50.300 --> 00:42:53.099 area. And the local fire department came and 00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:55.860 put it out. Didn't really think about that for 00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:59.219 years. And then one other thing happened. I was 00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:01.360 on my way to school one morning, riding on the 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.639 school bus, and I remember stopping to pick up 00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:06.280 one of the kids, and there was an ambulance in 00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.079 their yard. And the lights were on. And then 00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:11.079 we just went to school. And later I learned that 00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:13.340 there was an infant in that house that had died 00:43:13.340 --> 00:43:16.219 that morning. And that would have been volunteer 00:43:16.219 --> 00:43:22.019 EMTs. Went on with life, went to nursing school. 00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:24.519 And the only reason that I got involved with 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.000 EMS was because I learned very quickly that when 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.840 you're in nursing school, much as if you're in 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:33.159 medical school, I would get all these people 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:35.809 going, oh, well, you're a nurse. And someone 00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:37.449 would get hurt. They'd say, well, you're a nurse. 00:43:37.510 --> 00:43:39.110 What should we do? And I'd have to explain to 00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:41.269 them, you know, we're not really trained in emergency 00:43:41.269 --> 00:43:44.010 medicine. If I go into it to become an ER nurse, 00:43:44.150 --> 00:43:46.849 of course, but I'm just like a sophomore in nursing 00:43:46.849 --> 00:43:50.510 school. This kept happening. And I thought, you 00:43:50.510 --> 00:43:51.630 know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take, 00:43:51.650 --> 00:43:54.550 I'd heard about these EMT classes. I thought 00:43:54.550 --> 00:43:56.150 I'm going to just take one of those, not to be 00:43:56.150 --> 00:43:57.869 an EMT. I don't need to be on the

ambulance. 00:43:57.949 --> 00:44:00.969 I just want to know what to do when I get asked 00:44:00.969 --> 00:44:05.099 to help. So I mentioned it to my brother who 00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:08.179 lives up in Northern Wisconsin. And he said, 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:10.480 oh, I was thinking of volunteering on our local 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:12.159 ambulance service. At this time, I was going 00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:15.300 to college in the city. So I said, well, let's 00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:17.659 take the class together in our little local small 00:44:17.659 --> 00:44:21.119 town library. Well, my mom heard about it. And 00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:25.860 my mom, a very quiet person, very demure, wore 00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:28.400 her hair up and wore dresses most of the time 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:32.300 as part of her faith. And she just said, oh. 00:44:33.070 --> 00:44:35.750 I've always wanted to do something with my boys. 00:44:36.329 --> 00:44:40.889 And so we, my one brother and my mom and I, we 00:44:40.889 --> 00:44:44.150 all took the EMT course together at our local 00:44:44.150 --> 00:44:49.550 library. And when we were done, I was done. My 00:44:49.550 --> 00:44:52.349 mom and brother started volunteering on the local 00:44:52.349 --> 00:44:55.969 ambulance service. I went back to the city and 00:44:55.969 --> 00:44:59.110 then I thought, well, I'm going to take up, I 00:44:59.110 --> 00:45:02.190 was home visiting my brother and he got a call. 00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:04.190 And I said, he said, yeah, come on with me. So 00:45:04.190 --> 00:45:06.789 I went with him on the ambulance and made the 00:45:06.789 --> 00:45:08.730 call. And I remember transporting this person 00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:11.349 to the hospital and lights and sirens and thinking, 00:45:11.469 --> 00:45:16.409 this is pretty cool. And so I went back and I 00:45:16.409 --> 00:45:18.769 started working in the city for a private service. 00:45:18.849 --> 00:45:21.090 And I worked 48 hour shifts on the weekend, part 00:45:21.090 --> 00:45:24.239 time. And it was good because it was not a major 00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:26.679 city. It was a city of about 50 or 60 ,000. But 00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:28.599 in addition to the city, there was a university 00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:31.300 and then there was an interstate highway system 00:45:31.300 --> 00:45:33.659 that ran right through there. And then we also 00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:37.059 covered a massive rural area. So even though 00:45:37.059 --> 00:45:41.159 I was only working 48 hours on the weekend, we 00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:43.380 got a ton of calls and I got a ton of trauma 00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:45.659 experience. I got a ton of cardiac experience. 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.730 I got thrown right in. A few years later, I moved 00:45:49.730 --> 00:45:56.150 back to my hometown of 485 people. And I already 00:45:56.150 --> 00:45:58.969 had my EMT and they needed first responders and 00:45:58.969 --> 00:46:01.070 firefighters. So I

started volunteering for the 00:46:01.070 --> 00:46:02.989 ambulance service up the road. And then I took 00:46:02.989 --> 00:46:05.940 my firefighter one and firefighter two. And again, 00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:09.300 I'm still active as a volunteer and someone and 00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:11.639 I work with a lot of folks in L .A. or New York 00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.340 and they'll hear that I'm on a volunteer fire 00:46:14.340 --> 00:46:16.760 department and they say, oh, you must be very 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.380 brave and noble. And I go, eh, not especially. 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.360 And then I explained to them that when I moved 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:27.510 back to New Auburn, my hometown. My two brothers 00:46:27.510 --> 00:46:30.949 and my mom were already on the fire department. 00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:34.110 So it wasn't a matter of being brave or noble. 00:46:34.190 --> 00:46:37.909 It was a matter of peer pressure and also wanting 00:46:37.909 --> 00:46:39.909 to have some stories at Sunday night supper. 00:46:40.150 --> 00:46:43.329 So that was like, again, so many things in my 00:46:43.329 --> 00:46:45.989 life. It was not planned. It was sort of accidental. 00:46:46.090 --> 00:46:48.650 And even after I got the qualifications, I hadn't 00:46:48.650 --> 00:46:51.289 intended to use them. And then I just kind of. 00:46:51.809 --> 00:46:54.090 wandered into it. So I had many years where I 00:46:54.090 --> 00:46:56.869 was very active, both as a firefighter, always 00:46:56.869 --> 00:46:59.269 volunteer, except for that early job, which was 00:46:59.269 --> 00:47:02.949 a paid service, but many, many years, very active 00:47:02.949 --> 00:47:07.809 as a firefighter and EMT, EMT -I for a while. 00:47:07.909 --> 00:47:10.969 And then these days, I'm a first responder, EMR, 00:47:10.989 --> 00:47:12.969 as they call it in the state of Wisconsin, I 00:47:12.969 --> 00:47:17.630 think everywhere now. Honestly, I make between, 00:47:17.750 --> 00:47:20.090 I don't know, 10 or 20 calls a year at this point 00:47:20.090 --> 00:47:22.630 because I'm on the road a lot and I'm not always 00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:26.329 in the area, but still have my finger in it enough 00:47:26.329 --> 00:47:29.969 that I think I still relate and I love going 00:47:29.969 --> 00:47:32.090 to my FIRE meetings. I only make about half of 00:47:32.090 --> 00:47:35.030 them, but I tell people it's just this constant 00:47:35.030 --> 00:47:37.130 reminder. It's very easy to get caught up in 00:47:37.130 --> 00:47:39.949 the writing world or the Instagram posts or whatever 00:47:39.949 --> 00:47:43.260 it is you're tussling with. And why don't my 00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:45.619 books sell more? And why is my genius not appreciated? 00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:49.760 And then you go to your FIRE meeting. And I say 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.219 this as a positive. They don't give a rip about 00:47:52.219 --> 00:47:55.239 my book sales. They don't need to talk about 00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:57.860 the state of publishing in America. We're just 00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:00.519 going to speak a common language. And we're going 00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:04.280 to work for an hour on how to help people. It 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:06.780 really does boil down to that. And even now, 00:48:06.940 --> 00:48:09.460 I made a call a couple of weeks ago. It was an 00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:14.809 unsuccessful. attempt at resuscitation. And even 00:48:14.809 --> 00:48:17.150 in a call like that, where you know going in, 00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:19.889 this probably isn't going to end the way it does 00:48:19.889 --> 00:48:24.530 on TV, but look, my neighbors are here. I'm working 00:48:24.530 --> 00:48:26.469 with law enforcement. I'm working with volunteers. 00:48:26.750 --> 00:48:29.829 I'm working with some professional city paramedics 00:48:29.829 --> 00:48:32.789 who are full -time. And there's just that moment 00:48:32.789 --> 00:48:36.329 that feels so rare now, where I know that we 00:48:36.329 --> 00:48:38.150 don't all agree about everything, because I know 00:48:38.150 --> 00:48:41.230 some of these people, right? But for this moment, 00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:46.280 The patient comes first, bottom line, and we 00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:49.159 can get back to fighting later. And so I really 00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:54.699 do cherish that. I've had this conversation with 00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:58.480 a few people that are in an art world, I guess 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.300 is the best umbrella term for it, but are also 00:49:01.300 --> 00:49:04.480 first responders. And like I said, I was a stuntman 00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:06.480 the whole time I was a firefighter as well. And 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:09.199 I remember one particular time, and I don't know 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:11.869 what we had done. that shift you know up till 00:49:11.869 --> 00:49:14.690 you know we got off that that morning but i remember 00:49:14.690 --> 00:49:16.989 it must have been something significant and then 00:49:16.989 --> 00:49:19.530 a few hours later i'm at the pirate dinner stunt 00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:23.289 show and a guy's queening out about his costume 00:49:23.289 --> 00:49:25.289 not being right and i just remember sitting there 00:49:25.289 --> 00:49:28.670 going you know none of this matters and i don't 00:49:28.670 --> 00:49:30.909 know if that was close to when i you know ended 00:49:30.909 --> 00:49:32.809 up leaving that particular one it wasn't you 00:49:32.809 --> 00:49:34.750 know out of disdain for why could you think that 00:49:34.750 --> 00:49:37.769 way but it was just like you said These two different 00:49:37.769 --> 00:49:39.989 types. And I'm generalizing here. I don't mean 00:49:39.989 --> 00:49:42.630 to tie everyone with the same brush. But in principle, 00:49:42.809 --> 00:49:47.150 when you are an actor, the goal is for everyone 00:49:47.150 --> 00:49:49.809 to look at you. When you are a first responder, 00:49:50.150

--> 00:49:52.929 you put everyone else ahead of yourself to a 00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:55.170 point, of course. And as you said, the patient 00:49:55.170 --> 00:49:58.449 becomes the focus. And I found that such an interesting 00:49:58.449 --> 00:50:00.849 kind of yin and yang. It could be balanced, usually. 00:50:02.510 --> 00:50:04.929 can be blown out of proportion when you see you 00:50:04.929 --> 00:50:06.929 know the abuse of stardom or some of these other 00:50:06.929 --> 00:50:10.269 narcissistic traits that we see in politics and 00:50:10.269 --> 00:50:13.250 other areas at the moment when all of a sudden 00:50:13.250 --> 00:50:16.969 you know it it's completely reversed and and 00:50:16.969 --> 00:50:20.489 to to highlight the other side i just had some 00:50:20.489 --> 00:50:22.250 great conversations with people some of whom 00:50:22.250 --> 00:50:24.849 were for example on ground zero right when the 00:50:24.849 --> 00:50:28.360 planes first hit talking about 9 -12, talking 00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:30.719 about the coming together, what America actually 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:35.239 is. So for you, for me, you kind of get to see 00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:38.340 almost both extremes, the courageous selflessness 00:50:38.340 --> 00:50:40.280 that we see in our men and women in uniform, 00:50:40.420 --> 00:50:43.400 and then occasionally the narcissism and self 00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:46.420 -centeredness of some of the people in the other 00:50:46.420 --> 00:50:50.639 areas. Yeah, I think in Population 45, I wrote 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:54.820 about being on a really very... difficult call 00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:59.260 and involving death and i just remember working 00:50:59.260 --> 00:51:02.360 so hard on that call and and you know we did 00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:04.619 the best we could so it wasn't a matter of failure 00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:07.500 even it was just this is how this call ended 00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:11.139 and i remember us pulling back out from in the 00:51:11.139 --> 00:51:13.219 ambulance pulling back out and i think i wrote 00:51:13.219 --> 00:51:16.420 about getting onto this little four lane lots 00:51:16.420 --> 00:51:18.659 of traffic at least lots for where we're from 00:51:19.579 --> 00:51:21.900 and people coming and going and rushing and being 00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:24.340 mad at the stoplight or whatever and and you 00:51:24.340 --> 00:51:27.059 want to just roll down the window and and yell 00:51:27.059 --> 00:51:31.139 somebody just died somebody just died somebody 00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:33.380 left this world and there's people who don't 00:51:33.380 --> 00:51:35.579 even know it yet who love this person and you 00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:39.219 and you feel this burning need to let people 00:51:39.219 --> 00:51:44.070 know none of this is important and also I can 00:51:44.070 --> 00:51:46.989 come off as morbid, and I'm not. I love life. 00:51:47.170 --> 00:51:49.670 I have my very dark periods, and I've written 00:51:49.670 --> 00:51:52.110 about that, and I have a family history of depression. 00:51:53.210 --> 00:51:56.829 But I, by and large, just am so grateful for 00:51:56.829 --> 00:51:58.929 each day. But the other thing that I love about 00:51:58.929 --> 00:52:03.030 fire and EMS, EMS in particular, is I don't take 00:52:03.030 --> 00:52:05.110 a single breath for granted. And I don't mean 00:52:05.110 --> 00:52:07.409 that in the sense that I just sit around swanning 00:52:07.409 --> 00:52:10.349 over every breath. But I definitely don't ever 00:52:10.349 --> 00:52:12.980 forget that it ain't guaranteed. Because we've 00:52:12.980 --> 00:52:14.800 all been on calls for people who shouldn't have 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.800 died when they died and died for reasons maybe 00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:21.599 we won't even know why. And so that enriches 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:23.820 life. And it also, getting back to your actor 00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:27.340 thing, two things came to mind. One was the phrase 00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:30.440 that always leaps to mind when I'll see someone 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.780 acting like that in those sort of circumstances 00:52:32.780 --> 00:52:35.420 where the stakes are so low. I always sometimes 00:52:35.420 --> 00:52:38.019 very rarely say it out loud, but what I want 00:52:38.019 --> 00:52:44.219 to say is, okay, they're sparky. It's like, yeah, 00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.699 I see that's a huge problem for you. I think 00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:49.860 you're going to make it. The other thing, this 00:52:49.860 --> 00:52:51.960 is an acting lesson. This has nothing to do with 00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:53.820 why we're having the podcast. It does, though, 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:56.500 actually. You know, when you're all getting together 00:52:56.500 --> 00:52:59.539 on that scene and helping, that's your job to 00:52:59.539 --> 00:53:03.090 help. The last call I worked, I was basically 00:53:03.090 --> 00:53:05.510 running long boards and went up and talked to 00:53:05.510 --> 00:53:08.190 the family because everyone else was busy. So 00:53:08.190 --> 00:53:10.170 from the outside, it didn't look like I was really 00:53:10.170 --> 00:53:12.429 being heroic as it were, but you're just doing 00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:14.750 those little things. And one of the things that 00:53:14.750 --> 00:53:17.429 good actors know, and I learned it from a musician, 00:53:17.690 --> 00:53:21.289 she was the lead singer of a relatively successful 00:53:21.289 --> 00:53:25.150 band. And she said, the minute someone else takes 00:53:25.150 --> 00:53:27.710 a solo, your job is to turn and watch them and 00:53:27.710 --> 00:53:31.719 smile. redirect the attention and and you know 00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:35.880 acting i have a daughter who's an actor and we 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:38.820 talk about that all the time it's like it's important 00:53:38.820 --> 00:53:40.920 to know your lines and to hit your mark when 00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.099 the

light's on you it's equally important to 00:53:43.099 --> 00:53:46.900 learn how to be present and engaged on the stage 00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:49.980 when it's not on you but be present and engaged 00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:52.780 in such a way that directs attention where it's 00:53:52.780 --> 00:53:55.559 needed That's a whole different podcast, isn't 00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:57.559 it? We'll start the acting podcast next week. 00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:00.219 That was just interesting that when you have 00:54:00.219 --> 00:54:02.840 those two kind of parallel careers or in your 00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:06.539 case, volunteering, it just gives you, I would 00:54:06.539 --> 00:54:09.300 argue, almost two extremes on a spectrum. And 00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:11.860 as we know, there are so many people in the performance 00:54:11.860 --> 00:54:14.699 world that are incredible human beings. And there 00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:16.929 are people in the fire service that are... raving 00:54:16.929 --> 00:54:19.309 narcissist as well. So there is the crossover, 00:54:19.510 --> 00:54:21.869 but overall, you know, they are an interesting 00:54:21.869 --> 00:54:24.469 perspective. And I remember, and I think, again, 00:54:24.590 --> 00:54:27.190 this, I believe this is in the book Population 00:54:27.190 --> 00:54:29.710 45, an important lesson that I learned when I 00:54:29.710 --> 00:54:31.750 was writing that book. I have a, I wrote in there, 00:54:31.829 --> 00:54:34.650 you know, I, I struggle sometimes with the folks 00:54:34.650 --> 00:54:38.650 that around here we call Ricky Rescue, you know, 00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:42.489 just letting you know at every moment that they're 00:54:42.489 --> 00:54:47.260 a hero. And I, that's hard for me. And I was, 00:54:47.260 --> 00:54:49.519 I was venting about it to an old fire captain 00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:52.219 one time, and he was nodding and agreeing. And 00:54:52.219 --> 00:54:54.500 he said, he said, yeah, some of these folks, 00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:57.739 you know, if you make, if that is your only identity, 00:54:57.739 --> 00:55:01.719 and then you're projecting that constantly, you 00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:04.099 know, that's really not perfect. But then he 00:55:04.099 --> 00:55:06.260 said to me, he said, but you know what? Some 00:55:06.260 --> 00:55:08.320 of those folks are really good firefighters. 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:11.340 And that was hard to hear, but it was important 00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:14.019 to hear. It was like, yeah, sometimes like that 00:55:14.019 --> 00:55:16.699 actor that's really narcissistic is amazing. 00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:24.139 But you can do it and not have to be a jerk. 00:55:24.539 --> 00:55:27.340 Yeah. Yeah. And then even from a mental health 00:55:27.340 --> 00:55:29.639 point of view, which we'll get to in a bit. If 00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:34.260 your profession is your entire identity. then 00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:36.300 that can be a problem too, especially if you 00:55:36.300

--> 00:55:39.119 get hurt or retire, you know, and all of a sudden 00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:41.000 everything that you thought you were, you're 00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.860 not anymore. I can speak to that. I don't, maybe 00:55:43.860 --> 00:55:45.880 you want me to wait, but I'll speak to it. Go 00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:48.840 for it. I'm writing a book right now that may 00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:50.539 or may not ever see print, but I'm trying to 00:55:50.539 --> 00:55:54.900 write about writing. And being an artist, and 00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:57.320 I referred earlier in the interview to, you know, 00:55:57.320 --> 00:55:59.320 that I sometimes shuffle my feet and feel that 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:01.739 I'm not a pure artist. And one of the frustrations 00:56:01.739 --> 00:56:04.420 that I have, and this is me putting myself in 00:56:04.420 --> 00:56:07.179 harm's way by admitting that I'm frustrated as 00:56:07.179 --> 00:56:09.179 a parent sometimes, and it almost hit the mark. 00:56:09.940 --> 00:56:12.980 So I was a bachelor until I was 39, did whatever 00:56:12.980 --> 00:56:15.340 I wanted, whenever I wanted. And that's kind 00:56:15.340 --> 00:56:17.340 of also one of the great privileges I had when 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:19.099 I was starting out writing. By the time I met 00:56:19.099 --> 00:56:24.139 my now wife and her daughter, I was by no means 00:56:24.139 --> 00:56:26.380 in any shape to just say, oh, yeah, no problem. 00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:29.119 I can handle this. But I had enough of a foundation 00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:32.039 that I wasn't being crazy, becoming a dad and 00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:35.880 trying to put a family together. But since then, 00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:38.940 I've talked sometimes about how being, trying 00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:42.340 to be a responsible parent and showing up for 00:56:42.340 --> 00:56:45.610 your kids when they need you. getting the electric 00:56:45.610 --> 00:56:49.230 bill paid and being stable and not being the 00:56:49.230 --> 00:56:51.610 crazy guy out doing cocaine and having amazing 00:56:51.610 --> 00:56:54.750 visions and being that artist that, you know, 00:56:54.789 --> 00:56:56.889 the Hunter S Thompson or whoever it is in this 00:56:56.889 --> 00:56:59.889 day and age, some of those folks create amazing 00:56:59.889 --> 00:57:05.949 things. And they also, there are times where 00:57:05.949 --> 00:57:07.670 I wish I was that, you know, I wish people would 00:57:07.670 --> 00:57:09.550 just shake their heads and talk about me the 00:57:09.550 --> 00:57:11.369 way we talk about Hunter S Thompson, because 00:57:11.369 --> 00:57:14.320 they were, they were amazing. But I have learned, 00:57:14.420 --> 00:57:17.019 as you said, if that becomes your only identity, 00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:19.019 and what I've learned is that the very things 00:57:19.019 --> 00:57:21.440 that frustrate me about being a parent and about 00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:24.659 being responsible are the things that keep

me 00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:27.000 anchored to reality. And they're the things that 00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:29.559 have now that I'm at the age that I am, I realize 00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.320 they've also allowed me to do what I do longer 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:34.519 than I might have expected had I just decided 00:57:34.519 --> 00:57:37.699 to be a wild child. So again, I'm not saying... 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:40.099 My path is the only path, but I am saying that 00:57:40.099 --> 00:57:42.980 if your identity becomes all wrapped up, if all 00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:45.099 I cared about was being perceived as a capital 00:57:45.099 --> 00:57:48.380 W writer, yeah, that'd be a problem. And now 00:57:48.380 --> 00:57:50.280 we're back to why I'm so grateful that sometimes 00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.639 I'm just a volunteer first responder. That's 00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:56.619 a wonderful identity. I've said a lot recently, 00:57:56.639 --> 00:57:58.920 I don't think there's any greater gift to the 00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:01.780 world than a kind, strong, compassionate child. 00:58:02.570 --> 00:58:05.889 I did a podcast recently where at the end they 00:58:05.889 --> 00:58:09.889 let you, what's the word? They say, pretend that 00:58:09.889 --> 00:58:12.829 you're allowed to incept two thoughts into every 00:58:12.829 --> 00:58:15.150 person in the world. You're not allowed to kill 00:58:15.150 --> 00:58:17.809 anybody. You're not allowed to be a king or anything. 00:58:17.869 --> 00:58:20.590 But if you could just get people to wake up one 00:58:20.590 --> 00:58:23.130 morning believing two things, what would it be? 00:58:23.610 --> 00:58:25.849 And I don't remember the second thing. But the 00:58:25.849 --> 00:58:27.630 first thing I just said is I said, if I could 00:58:27.630 --> 00:58:30.190 just have people believe that kindness does not 00:58:30.190 --> 00:58:35.679 equal weakness. Absolutely. I love that phrase, 00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:38.980 the warrior in the garden. You have to be strong 00:58:38.980 --> 00:58:40.920 to be kind. You do, but it doesn't mean that 00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:44.500 you use violence. Well, and even if you do, I 00:58:44.500 --> 00:58:46.500 just, again, I'm getting in over my head here, 00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:50.159 but I just wrote a long essay called Hogs and 00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:52.679 Honor or Honor and Hogs. I don't remember what 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:57.340 it was, but it's online. And I wrote about, I 00:58:57.340 --> 00:59:00.239 was sitting in a hog hunting blind in Alabama 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:06.079 and reading. The autobiography of General James 00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:09.460 Mad Dog Mattis. You may have whatever opinion 00:59:09.460 --> 00:59:11.659 you have of him. I found it fascinating because 00:59:11.659 --> 00:59:13.760 he just kept stressing the importance of reading 00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:16.059 and how before he would go into a battle, he 00:59:16.059 --> 00:59:18.619 would read Alexander the

Great or something. 00:59:18.780 --> 00:59:22.400 And this was not in a self -aggrandizing way. 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:24.800 He was like, what are my weaknesses? What am 00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:27.940 I not thinking about? And just that idea that... 00:59:28.429 --> 00:59:31.630 He was humble enough. That's my tie. I'm making 00:59:31.630 --> 00:59:34.269 a leap from kindness to war. But I am saying 00:59:34.269 --> 00:59:38.230 that here was a person whose job was to do violence, 00:59:38.329 --> 00:59:41.489 but he wanted to at least have some sort of global 00:59:41.489 --> 00:59:44.250 understanding of the human condition. And I think 00:59:44.250 --> 00:59:49.949 that's honestly in every pursuit. Absolutely. 00:59:50.309 --> 00:59:53.780 Yeah. He's someone I need to try and get on the 00:59:53.780 --> 00:59:56.719 show one day. I know it's a reach, but I like 00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:00.619 the barometer that he uses for who is or isn't 01:00:00.619 --> 01:00:02.440 a good leader. I'll just leave that right there. 01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:08.280 All right, well, moving on. Before we get to 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:11.699 serving in your own community, you're a Wisconsin 01:00:11.699 --> 01:00:14.940 farm boy. You moved to the city to go to college. 01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:19.280 You joined EMS. I'm a British farm boy. I find 01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:21.900 myself working in urban America. The curtain 01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:24.059 is ripped back and all of a sudden I see all 01:00:24.059 --> 01:00:27.300 the things that society struggles with. What 01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:30.260 were your aha moments? What were some of the 01:00:30.260 --> 01:00:32.400 calls where you realize, okay, this is not the 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:36.760 sleepy town that I'm used to? Well, I don't think 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:39.019 I was used to the sleepy town. So in a way there 01:00:39.019 --> 01:00:42.280 weren't surprises because I did know about things 01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:46.119 that happened in the dark. nobody talked about 01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:49.519 because you grew up with them. I grew up with 01:00:49.519 --> 01:00:52.719 classmates who came to town bloodied by a parent. 01:00:54.099 --> 01:00:59.599 So in some ways, I think I wasn't surprised. 01:00:59.619 --> 01:01:01.980 And that was part of, I remember when I pitched 01:01:01.980 --> 01:01:06.599 the book Population 485, I remember telling the 01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:10.000 editors, I would love to write this book, but 01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:12.769 if you try to... Have me turn it into white picket 01:01:12.769 --> 01:01:15.369 fences and apple pie. You're going to lose me. 01:01:15.789 --> 01:01:18.110 I'm sure they were terrified of losing a talent 01:01:18.110 --> 01:01:21.610 such as I. They were up all night tossing and 01:01:21.610 --> 01:01:25.849 turning. What will we do? But to their credit, 01:01:25.889 --> 01:01:27.829 they let me do that. And, you know, I was able 01:01:27.829 --> 01:01:29.989 to

write about a place I love and still love 01:01:29.989 --> 01:01:35.780 without. having to over polish the apple as it 01:01:35.780 --> 01:01:37.920 were and there are ways to write about the bad 01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:40.159 and the dark things without personalizing it 01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:42.480 or making it about one group of people it just 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:44.800 it comes through you know one of the things i've 01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:48.340 had people say is very specifically to population 01:01:48.340 --> 01:01:52.059 45 how can you write about such dark difficult 01:01:52.059 --> 01:01:54.300 things and then a page later you're you're making 01:01:54.300 --> 01:01:56.480 us laugh or you're telling a funny story and 01:01:56.480 --> 01:02:01.139 i my only answer that ever is that is life You 01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:04.380 make that horrible call, and then in order to 01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:06.679 help others, you can't sit with that the rest 01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:09.059 of the week. You have to, for your own sake, 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:11.139 for the sake of your loved ones, and for the 01:02:11.139 --> 01:02:14.480 sake of the next call, you learn it's not about 01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:16.659 being heartless. It's not about being callous. 01:02:16.699 --> 01:02:18.920 It's learning where do you place these things, 01:02:19.059 --> 01:02:23.199 what you do with them. And so I think in the 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:26.260 book, I just tried to make it clear that this 01:02:26.260 --> 01:02:30.670 was not some little. 1950s TV show happening 01:02:30.670 --> 01:02:34.289 here. But also that I love that place deeply 01:02:34.289 --> 01:02:38.849 and that I'm grateful every day that I was raised 01:02:38.849 --> 01:02:42.369 among those folks. You know, I grew up, well, 01:02:42.449 --> 01:02:44.329 let me fast forward beyond growing up, just when 01:02:44.329 --> 01:02:47.599 I was on the fire department. 12 years back on 01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:50.260 my hometown fire department after a 12 year absence. 01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:52.699 So I wasn't the same guy when I went back as 01:02:52.699 --> 01:02:55.079 I was when I left. And my view of the world had 01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:57.699 changed some. But the bottom line was, if I if 01:02:57.699 --> 01:02:59.880 I jumped off the truck and hauled hose into the 01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:03.460 burning barn, I was good to go. And I got to 01:03:03.460 --> 01:03:07.079 work with. working class folks that became my 01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:09.860 friends, some that I knew growing up, some that 01:03:09.860 --> 01:03:13.760 were new. And I got to watch them do smart things 01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:16.119 and not so smart things. And I got to be there 01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:18.139 for them and with them. And then I knew what 01:03:18.139 --> 01:03:21.260 it was like to go to one of the most roughneck, 01:03:21.300 --> 01:03:23.420 roughnecks fellows I've ever known for parenting 01:03:23.420 --> 01:03:25.920 advice, because he was struggling with his child 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.019 with something that I was struggling with. And 01:03:28.019 --> 01:03:32.159 so I think that. well immersion isn't right i 01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:33.940 have had people say that was such a great idea 01:03:33.940 --> 01:03:35.579 to go back to your hometown and write a book 01:03:35.579 --> 01:03:39.159 about it well it again wasn't planned i moved 01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:43.340 back because my house payment was 163 bucks a 01:03:43.340 --> 01:03:45.440 month and i was five minutes from my deer hunting 01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:49.840 stand but eight years in i realized or i was 01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:52.119 offered the opportunity to write this book so 01:03:52.119 --> 01:03:55.539 yeah i just think that working with those folks 01:03:55.539 --> 01:03:59.460 those 12 years my neighbors people i grew up 01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:02.860 with they just reinforced that platform we talked 01:04:02.860 --> 01:04:05.820 about earlier where i just know so many people 01:04:05.820 --> 01:04:08.059 who are just working hard to try to keep it together 01:04:08.059 --> 01:04:11.739 day to day that do i get upset about silly things 01:04:11.739 --> 01:04:14.360 of course i do do i get my feelings hurt about 01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:16.940 silly things you bet about three times a week 01:04:16.940 --> 01:04:20.039 but at some point i'll remember yeah well you 01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:26.619 know what sparky you're gonna be okay so often 01:04:26.619 --> 01:04:31.389 when you find Places where the population struggles. 01:04:31.750 --> 01:04:34.130 I'll stay with America because obviously the 01:04:34.130 --> 01:04:35.789 opioid crisis and some of these other things 01:04:35.789 --> 01:04:39.070 have highlighted this. There is a loss of industry 01:04:39.070 --> 01:04:42.309 or some shift in how things used to be to how 01:04:42.309 --> 01:04:45.730 things have become. Was there an element in the 01:04:45.730 --> 01:04:49.530 backstory of New Auburn in that area that maybe 01:04:49.530 --> 01:04:52.130 created some of this darkness that you saw growing 01:04:52.130 --> 01:04:55.340 up? Yeah, I mean, I touch on it in the book. 01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:57.239 It's not a complete historical document. But 01:04:57.239 --> 01:04:59.079 in the one chapter I talk about, you know, it 01:04:59.079 --> 01:05:01.860 was born from a sawmill. It was lumbering. And 01:05:01.860 --> 01:05:05.300 a guy came and put a sawmill up there. And then 01:05:05.300 --> 01:05:07.539 they just cut down all the trees. But that brought 01:05:07.539 --> 01:05:10.420 a rail line. And then for years, I'm old. I'm 01:05:10.420 --> 01:05:13.119 just old enough to remember the old potato warehouses 01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:16.639 and charcoal kilns. So for years. potatoes, everybody 01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:19.500 grew potatoes. And then that all got industrialized 01:05:19.500 --> 01:05:22.139 and went somewhere else.

And I remember the charcoal 01:05:22.139 --> 01:05:24.179 kilns and they used to make charcoal and then 01:05:24.179 --> 01:05:26.539 those disappeared. And there used to be a brick 01:05:26.539 --> 01:05:28.679 factory that made bricks. And when they built 01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:30.380 the old Catholic church, they dug up a whole 01:05:30.380 --> 01:05:32.079 bunch of bricks that had been buried that were 01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:35.719 probably defective or something. And so I knew 01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:37.840 the history of those changes. And as I said, 01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:40.780 even visually, I could remember the last remaining 01:05:40.780 --> 01:05:44.980 tendrils of that pre -existing history. But then 01:05:44.980 --> 01:05:47.519 even, yeah, during my time, what I saw the most, 01:05:47.539 --> 01:05:51.380 because I wasn't a town kid, I saw it in the 01:05:51.380 --> 01:05:54.039 countryside. My dad, as I said, I think he bought 01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:57.119 our farm in 1966. So then I came of age in the 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:00.400 80s. And the farm decline has been going on since 01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:04.920 the late 20s, early 30s. But in the 80s, there 01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:07.639 was a huge acceleration. And I remember as a 01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:10.329 little kid, every... Everywhere you went, there 01:06:10.329 --> 01:06:12.389 was a red barn, a couple of silos, and some black 01:06:12.389 --> 01:06:14.269 and white cows in the green field. And that was 01:06:14.269 --> 01:06:17.030 a farm. And they were all over. And by the time 01:06:17.030 --> 01:06:19.170 I was in high school, half of them, it seems, 01:06:19.309 --> 01:06:21.690 were gone. And now when I go back, there basically 01:06:21.690 --> 01:06:25.550 are none. It was go big or get out. And that's 01:06:25.550 --> 01:06:28.590 what happened. And so I watched it more from 01:06:28.590 --> 01:06:31.590 a rural perspective, just watching. You could 01:06:31.590 --> 01:06:34.210 no longer really make it just as a small farmer. 01:06:34.349 --> 01:06:39.949 And so I saw those changes. And then when I moved 01:06:39.949 --> 01:06:43.409 back to town as an older person, I was there 01:06:43.409 --> 01:06:48.889 from my late 20s to my late early 40s. Yeah, 01:06:49.070 --> 01:06:52.289 I saw when I moved back to town the second time, 01:06:52.349 --> 01:06:55.050 there was still a little general store. And when 01:06:55.050 --> 01:06:56.630 I was a little kid, there were three of them. 01:06:57.030 --> 01:07:00.309 And when I moved back in 1995, there was one. 01:07:00.349 --> 01:07:02.050 And within a couple of years, that was gone. 01:07:02.349 --> 01:07:07.340 So, yeah, I saw that stuff. I don't have the 01:07:07.340 --> 01:07:09.599 answer, but I do know the lesson I took from 01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:14.179 it. And that is that I watched so many of my 01:07:14.179 --> 01:07:17.340 mentors, folks who taught me so many valuable 01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:20.579 lessons about life and strength and resilience. 01:07:21.380 --> 01:07:25.300 But at the end of their lives, they became bitter 01:07:25.300 --> 01:07:28.659 and brittle. And so the thing I've really been 01:07:28.659 --> 01:07:32.630 working on is. I wish I could say that I have 01:07:32.630 --> 01:07:36.570 the answer to rural America or small towns, and 01:07:36.570 --> 01:07:40.030 I would like to contribute where I can. But the 01:07:40.030 --> 01:07:43.010 work that I have to do with myself, even this 01:07:43.010 --> 01:07:45.690 land I'm sitting on right now, we own a little 01:07:45.690 --> 01:07:48.369 patch of land here, and development is coming. 01:07:48.590 --> 01:07:51.090 And we knew it was coming 20 years ago when we 01:07:51.090 --> 01:07:52.929 moved here, and now it's getting closer and closer. 01:07:53.739 --> 01:07:56.539 And I can be angry and sad about that for the 01:07:56.539 --> 01:07:59.699 rest of my remaining breaths, however many they 01:07:59.699 --> 01:08:02.800 are, or I can find a way to not become bitter 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:06.420 and brittle. And that's my biggest thing is where's 01:08:06.420 --> 01:08:08.760 that fine line between just surrendering to the 01:08:08.760 --> 01:08:11.260 future, but also saying, you know, maybe I just 01:08:11.260 --> 01:08:15.139 need a different place, a different start. So 01:08:15.139 --> 01:08:17.199 I didn't, again, I don't think I've answered 01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:19.699 a single question you've asked this entire podcast. 01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:23.460 This is where we've ended up. There is no answer, 01:08:23.539 --> 01:08:27.020 though. There's a response. Yeah, you're right. 01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:30.359 How do you respond? And the one thing I am, just 01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:36.960 tiny little slivers of hope. I am seeing, you 01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:39.300 know, new people are moving to the country. And 01:08:39.300 --> 01:08:43.279 we definitely are losing young people. And the 01:08:43.279 --> 01:08:45.579 old ways of making a living are disappearing. 01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:48.819 And there remains a very difficult divide. that 01:08:48.819 --> 01:08:52.239 I am often striding, you know, the anti -intellectualism 01:08:52.239 --> 01:08:56.140 versus an academia that has lost all touch with 01:08:56.140 --> 01:08:59.479 reality. And I have friends and people doing 01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:02.720 good work on both sides of that spectrum. And 01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:04.920 it's heartbreaking sometimes to see that divide, 01:09:05.119 --> 01:09:09.600 but I'm seeing natural forces where some folks 01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:11.859 now are moving into the country and into small 01:09:11.859 --> 01:09:14.180 towns and rural areas, and they're bringing new 01:09:14.180 --> 01:09:16.800 ideas and they're not just, we're going to fix 01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:19.319 you folks. It's like, We want the best of what 01:09:19.319 --> 01:09:21.539 this life can bring, but they're also bringing

01:09:21.539 --> 01:09:23.699 with them some new ideas, some new ways of thinking. 01:09:23.939 --> 01:09:27.619 And I see that in live performance. I've never 01:09:27.619 --> 01:09:31.399 been famous or had a huge following, but I've 01:09:31.399 --> 01:09:33.560 observed people who do and written about them. 01:09:33.640 --> 01:09:36.819 And in my case, my audience is very small and 01:09:36.819 --> 01:09:41.079 discrete, D -I -S -C -R -E -T -E. And that's 01:09:41.079 --> 01:09:43.859 actually starting to work again because I can 01:09:43.859 --> 01:09:46.140 fool you. We can fool each other all day with 01:09:46.140 --> 01:09:50.079 AI, whatever, Instagram, everything. We can fool 01:09:50.079 --> 01:09:53.539 each other. But if we get in a small space together 01:09:53.539 --> 01:09:57.399 and have an event together, I can't fool you. 01:09:57.460 --> 01:10:00.140 I can do fiction. I can do a play that's not 01:10:00.140 --> 01:10:02.479 real, but you know that I'm actually there doing 01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:04.739 it. And I'm starting to get comments from people 01:10:04.739 --> 01:10:06.800 who I do these little one man humor shows just 01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:11.010 regionally. And I'll get comments from people 01:10:11.010 --> 01:10:13.930 that say, we so enjoyed an hour and a half, two 01:10:13.930 --> 01:10:16.210 hours of sitting next to someone we didn't know 01:10:16.210 --> 01:10:19.470 and sharing laughter. And I happen to know from 01:10:19.470 --> 01:10:21.449 where we were and the makeup of my audience, 01:10:21.729 --> 01:10:26.409 which is not unipolar. I know that the subtext 01:10:26.409 --> 01:10:28.770 of that message is, it was so lovely to sit next 01:10:28.770 --> 01:10:30.609 to someone that we think we probably don't agree 01:10:30.609 --> 01:10:32.909 with, but we both enjoyed this hour together. 01:10:33.819 --> 01:10:36.319 And so the tangent that I'm off on now from you 01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:38.600 asking about the decline of small towns in rural 01:10:38.600 --> 01:10:42.079 America is that I do think there is a hunger 01:10:42.079 --> 01:10:45.239 for the real and the small, and there's some 01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:48.140 hope in that. Whether it's enough, that's another 01:10:48.140 --> 01:10:51.319 discussion, but it's out there. I couldn't agree 01:10:51.319 --> 01:10:54.460 more. I'm what I call an incurable yet angry 01:10:54.460 --> 01:10:57.460 optimist. I'm happy to throat punch if it gets 01:10:57.460 --> 01:11:00.380 us to a happier place. That's funny because I 01:11:00.380 --> 01:11:04.720 always say that I'm a... Oh my gosh, it's opposite 01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:09.880 of optimist, pessimist. I always say that I'm 01:11:09.880 --> 01:11:14.399 like an indefatigable pessimist. And part of 01:11:14.399 --> 01:11:17.640 it is my dark Scandinavian background, but I 01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:19.319 always joke whenever something good happens, 01:11:19.439 --> 01:11:22.579 I always go, oh boy, well, that just means something 01:11:22.579 --> 01:11:26.399 bad is going to happen. But the key is, do I 01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:29.699 then quit? No. And so I think same, different 01:11:29.699 --> 01:11:32.560 term, but absolute same. makeup and reaction 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:36.100 yeah well i think i mean for example after covid 01:11:36.100 --> 01:11:39.140 even though the lessons were completely discarded 01:11:39.140 --> 01:11:41.899 that they're not gone they're still there for 01:11:41.899 --> 01:11:44.479 us to learn but one of the ones was if we had 01:11:44.479 --> 01:11:47.800 local farmers growing organic food we wouldn't 01:11:47.800 --> 01:11:50.920 have this massive bottleneck that we saw during 01:11:50.920 --> 01:11:53.380 the pandemic. Local farmers are our treasure. 01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:56.159 And yes, there are food deserts in certain areas 01:11:56.159 --> 01:11:59.779 and certain very urban parts of the US, but the 01:11:59.779 --> 01:12:02.920 farmland is vast everywhere else and more than 01:12:02.920 --> 01:12:06.079 capable of bolstering New York City or LA or 01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:09.140 wherever they need the extra help. The other 01:12:09.140 --> 01:12:10.600 thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is the 01:12:10.600 --> 01:12:14.069 American mall is dying. And I say that affectionately, 01:12:14.090 --> 01:12:16.270 even though I'm a kid of the 80s, it wasn't a 01:12:16.270 --> 01:12:17.810 very British thing, but I know the Americans 01:12:17.810 --> 01:12:22.109 listening are heartbroken. But that was consumerism. 01:12:22.170 --> 01:12:25.210 You went in, you just went through shelves and 01:12:25.210 --> 01:12:27.170 hangers and you bought stuff and you walked out 01:12:27.170 --> 01:12:30.109 with bags and that was it. What I'm seeing now, 01:12:30.170 --> 01:12:34.109 it's not there yet, but it's a yearning for artisan 01:12:34.109 --> 01:12:37.939 stores, you know, craftspeople. and you know 01:12:37.939 --> 01:12:40.880 coffee shops and breweries and whatever your 01:12:40.880 --> 01:12:44.119 thing is where people want to come together and 01:12:44.119 --> 01:12:47.239 experience things our local movie theater the 01:12:47.239 --> 01:12:50.100 one downtown is now a theater space which i think 01:12:50.100 --> 01:12:52.279 it was originally before it even became a cinema 01:12:52.279 --> 01:12:54.939 and with we having comedians come through all 01:12:54.939 --> 01:12:57.979 the time now so i really i have like i said this 01:12:57.979 --> 01:13:00.840 hope in humanity i think that we're almost at 01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:03.539 the end of the idiocracy realm, which I thought 01:13:03.539 --> 01:13:05.619 was fiction until I realized it was a documentary. 01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:10.140 And I think once that shatters, then on the back 01:13:10.140 --> 01:13:12.260 end of that, I think I really believe the pendulum 01:13:12.260 --> 01:13:14.640 is going to settle where it always should have, 01:13:14.699 -->

01:13:17.020 kind of in the middle, away from the two sides 01:13:17.020 --> 01:13:20.380 of crazy people and back where the silent majority 01:13:20.380 --> 01:13:22.899 is. Because I think there is a yearning. There's 01:13:22.899 --> 01:13:25.680 a yearning for us to be healthier, happier, safer. 01:13:26.060 --> 01:13:29.779 You know, the small town. which I grew up in, 01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.739 in England as well, the community is exactly 01:13:32.739 --> 01:13:36.260 what is needed. But when you shatter that, when 01:13:36.260 --> 01:13:38.859 you pigeonhole and tell people they're the enemy, 01:13:39.039 --> 01:13:42.560 then you've fractured the very core that it is 01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:45.640 to be British, American, Swedish, whatever your 01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:48.199 thing is. And I really, I have a lot of hope 01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:52.699 in, as long as we keep our eyes open, that the 01:13:52.699 --> 01:13:56.539 next chapter... of Western civilization is going 01:13:56.539 --> 01:14:00.960 to be that leaning into learning from the things 01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:02.779 that didn't work and leaning into the things 01:14:02.779 --> 01:14:05.439 that did work. And I think that, again, going 01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:08.819 back to our ancestors, there's so much wisdom 01:14:08.819 --> 01:14:11.399 for millennia prior to us having the humility 01:14:11.399 --> 01:14:14.079 to say, all right, what has worked for tribalism 01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:16.199 around the world? Oh, people taking care of each 01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:17.880 other. No one's more important than the next. 01:14:18.239 --> 01:14:21.880 So I hope that like you, I do believe, I do believe, 01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:25.210 but it takes courage. for everyone in the middle 01:14:25.210 --> 01:14:27.529 to finally stand up and say all right enough 01:14:27.529 --> 01:14:29.829 is enough time out get the shepherd's crook out 01:14:29.829 --> 01:14:34.149 you're done time for normality again i grew up 01:14:34.149 --> 01:14:36.890 with a shepherd's crook in the farmhouse actually 01:14:36.890 --> 01:14:38.609 because the dad having sheep so that's a funny 01:14:38.609 --> 01:14:42.350 reference to me um yeah i think and you see it 01:14:42.350 --> 01:14:45.989 in quiet conversations all the time there are 01:14:45.989 --> 01:14:49.250 so many out there who are just saying surely 01:14:49.250 --> 01:14:53.359 we can do better than this And you're so hamstrung 01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:58.460 or cornered by the false divisions. And so many 01:14:58.460 --> 01:15:01.600 of us just need and want the same things. And 01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:05.199 I think of two things. One is I have someone 01:15:05.199 --> 01:15:09.279 close to me who I can't say that I am on the 01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:11.659 same page with politically. But even that person, 01:15:11.680 --> 01:15:15.189 I remember when... they're in agriculture and 01:15:15.189 --> 01:15:17.729 there was an issue involving the four major meat 01:15:17.729 --> 01:15:20.909 packers and this person just saying on his own 01:15:20.909 --> 01:15:23.229 without just saying you know that seems like 01:15:23.229 --> 01:15:25.250 a bad idea that almost seems like a national 01:15:25.250 --> 01:15:28.210 security issue i remember going yeah it does 01:15:28.210 --> 01:15:31.090 doesn't it um but the difference there is not 01:15:31.090 --> 01:15:33.689 because i hectored him or hit him with a bumper 01:15:33.689 --> 01:15:37.369 sticker it's like he just we maintain a conversation 01:15:37.369 --> 01:15:41.170 and over time this happens and uh the little 01:15:41.170 --> 01:15:44.909 town up The road from the town where I grew up 01:15:44.909 --> 01:15:47.810 is called Chautauqua, Wisconsin, and I was on 01:15:47.810 --> 01:15:51.550 the ambulance there for years. And they just 01:15:51.550 --> 01:15:53.909 revived their local drive -in movie theater, 01:15:54.050 --> 01:15:57.810 and people want it. Now, it's taking work. It's 01:15:57.810 --> 01:16:00.449 a struggle financially, and it took some outsiders 01:16:00.449 --> 01:16:03.489 combined with some insiders. But people have 01:16:03.489 --> 01:16:05.210 decided this is worth trying. Now, is it going 01:16:05.210 --> 01:16:07.250 to work? We'll see. But just the fact that that 01:16:07.250 --> 01:16:11.630 attempt is even made gives me hope. I think the 01:16:11.630 --> 01:16:13.489 last thing, and without getting into this, because 01:16:13.489 --> 01:16:16.210 the minute you start using the labels, then your 01:16:16.210 --> 01:16:20.689 algorithm really gets twisted. But one of the 01:16:20.689 --> 01:16:25.109 things I do hear sometimes is my audience already 01:16:25.109 --> 01:16:31.350 said is not unipolar. And there's a way to handle 01:16:31.350 --> 01:16:34.229 that honestly and forthrightly. And mainly it 01:16:34.229 --> 01:16:36.109 just is talk directly to people and be who you 01:16:36.109 --> 01:16:41.680 are. often sell books and have long conversations 01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:44.020 to people who buy maybe their t -shirt or their 01:16:44.020 --> 01:16:45.899 cap, I can tell. It's like, well, you and I are 01:16:45.899 --> 01:16:49.319 in disagreement over this. But they're talking 01:16:49.319 --> 01:16:52.000 to me about their life and they're talking to 01:16:52.000 --> 01:16:54.260 me in the same terms that I've used because I've 01:16:54.260 --> 01:16:57.539 managed somehow to convey them in a way that 01:16:57.539 --> 01:17:00.180 is not humiliating or that is not just mockery. 01:17:00.420 --> 01:17:03.659 And yet I'm able to be very honest about my points 01:17:03.659 --> 01:17:06.279 of disagreement. I was between the lines of what 01:17:06.279 --> 01:17:09.600 I write. It's pretty clear how I feel. But I 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:11.640 don't devolve into bumper sticker talk because 01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:14.300 I grew up with these folks. And I can just tell 01:17:14.300 --> 01:17:16.659 you it has the

opposite effect of what you think. 01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:21.420 And so I think what's heartening is just to have 01:17:21.420 --> 01:17:23.859 these conversations and to find the commonalities. 01:17:24.380 --> 01:17:29.140 And then I will get people from another viewpoint 01:17:29.140 --> 01:17:32.300 who will say to me specifically about folks I'm 01:17:32.300 --> 01:17:34.760 on the fire department with in a very rural area. 01:17:35.720 --> 01:17:37.539 And they happen to know how these people believe 01:17:37.539 --> 01:17:39.460 and vote. And they say, well, I don't know. How 01:17:39.460 --> 01:17:41.579 can you work with people like that? I go, because 01:17:41.579 --> 01:17:44.779 when I'm in the big city doing a book reading, 01:17:45.020 --> 01:17:47.960 my daughter gets hurt. Those folks will drop 01:17:47.960 --> 01:17:50.659 everything and come and help her. That doesn't 01:17:50.659 --> 01:17:53.119 fix how I feel about the way that they're voting 01:17:53.119 --> 01:17:55.539 or pushing the country. But the fact is they 01:17:55.539 --> 01:17:58.720 do fundamental good. And so that's very complicated 01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:02.079 for me. And it's a complicated situation. And 01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:05.359 so the solutions that you're offering me. aren't 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:08.880 effective at ground level now again i always 01:18:08.880 --> 01:18:11.739 feel like i don't have it figured out and i admire 01:18:11.739 --> 01:18:14.100 we do need people on what i call the bleeding 01:18:14.100 --> 01:18:16.739 edge you know whether it's protest whether it's 01:18:16.739 --> 01:18:19.220 legislative whether it's getting in we need those 01:18:19.220 --> 01:18:23.880 people someone has to has to be able to articulate 01:18:23.880 --> 01:18:25.779 these things in a way that gets everyone's attention 01:18:25.779 --> 01:18:28.859 but at the end of the day you the vast majority 01:18:28.859 --> 01:18:31.100 of us have to figure out a way to work and get 01:18:31.100 --> 01:18:34.979 along together not preaching just thinking out 01:18:34.979 --> 01:18:38.020 loud no but i think isn't it crazy though that 01:18:38.020 --> 01:18:41.079 you have to almost watch what you say to say 01:18:41.079 --> 01:18:44.460 the community kindness compassion message because 01:18:44.460 --> 01:18:47.020 you know god you're you're a screaming this or 01:18:47.020 --> 01:18:49.359 a flame in that or whatever yeah i'm either caving 01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:52.119 to the wrong side or i'm promoting the wrong 01:18:52.119 --> 01:18:55.920 side it's like no i'm just taking strays in the 01:18:55.920 --> 01:18:58.939 middle here that's exactly exactly well i'm also 01:18:58.939 --> 01:19:03.470 very lucky i don't you know i don't mean Yeah, 01:19:03.470 --> 01:19:05.729 I get uncomfortable talking about this, which 01:19:05.729 --> 01:19:07.409 is good because it should be talked about. But 01:19:07.409 --> 01:19:09.350 I just get uncomfortable. We've talked about 01:19:09.350 --> 01:19:11.569 humility a lot. And I just dread coming across 01:19:11.569 --> 01:19:13.689 as the guy who's like, you should be like me. 01:19:13.789 --> 01:19:15.930 Like, no, I don't have it figured out either. 01:19:16.069 --> 01:19:19.310 But we're working on it day to day. Yeah, well, 01:19:19.390 --> 01:19:21.829 I think we come also from a profession or a calling 01:19:21.829 --> 01:19:25.270 where there's such a great analogy built into 01:19:25.270 --> 01:19:27.970 what we do. You imagine one of your neighbors 01:19:27.970 --> 01:19:30.850 now has a structure fire and you've got. you 01:19:30.850 --> 01:19:33.350 know three units responding everyone's wearing 01:19:33.350 --> 01:19:37.289 bunker gear show me the republican show me the 01:19:37.289 --> 01:19:39.890 gay guy yeah you know show me the transgender 01:19:39.890 --> 01:19:43.989 show me the the muslim yeah i've served beside 01:19:43.989 --> 01:19:47.050 all of them and and you know the thing that also 01:19:47.050 --> 01:19:50.449 works with me is some of my friends who become 01:19:50.449 --> 01:19:54.130 overly agitated and this is again not there is 01:19:54.130 --> 01:19:56.510 there are horrible wrongs being perpetrated constantly 01:19:56.510 --> 01:19:58.750 so this is i'm not minimizing anything but on 01:19:58.750 --> 01:20:03.069 the ground level Um, it truly just comes down 01:20:03.069 --> 01:20:06.750 to what are your actions in the moment? And that's 01:20:06.750 --> 01:20:10.329 all I've said. All I can ever be hoped to judge 01:20:10.329 --> 01:20:12.750 on is the balance of my actions. Cause I know 01:20:12.750 --> 01:20:16.069 they haven't all been good. And so I hope somewhere 01:20:16.069 --> 01:20:19.770 in there, you know, I don't know. Yeah. I've, 01:20:19.850 --> 01:20:23.310 I've served beside all, all sorts of folks and 01:20:23.310 --> 01:20:26.069 I just wanted to know that they were going to 01:20:26.069 --> 01:20:29.359 hold onto the hose, you know? That's my point 01:20:29.359 --> 01:20:31.800 exactly. You don't know which one is Republican, 01:20:32.119 --> 01:20:35.340 homosexual, whatever, but you know who's the 01:20:35.340 --> 01:20:37.180 shit firefighter and you know who's the good 01:20:37.180 --> 01:20:39.699 one because of their actions. That's the perfect 01:20:39.699 --> 01:20:42.939 analogy. And a little sense of humor too. I mean, 01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:45.539 I keep talking about population 45, but that's 01:20:45.539 --> 01:20:47.060 because that's the one that has the most stuff 01:20:47.060 --> 01:20:50.260 about volunteer firefighting and EMS. i joke 01:20:50.260 --> 01:20:52.619 in there but they you know i was made fun of 01:20:52.619 --> 01:20:54.979 for having soft hands and being and going to 01:20:54.979 --> 01:20:57.539 poetry right readings and modern dance recitals 01:20:57.539 --> 01:21:02.079 but i understood the humor it was funny and i 01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:03.859 wasn't being belittled you

know there's a big 01:21:03.859 --> 01:21:06.920 difference too and again i'm operating from i 01:21:06.920 --> 01:21:09.640 can code switch i go deer hunting i got a snowplow 01:21:09.640 --> 01:21:11.560 truck so me getting teased is much different 01:21:11.560 --> 01:21:13.500 than some of the other folks you mentioned i 01:21:13.500 --> 01:21:17.489 don't mean in any way to equate that but I, you 01:21:17.489 --> 01:21:19.210 know, I could have gotten on my high horse and 01:21:19.210 --> 01:21:23.050 say, well, you too should go to, no, my job is 01:21:23.050 --> 01:21:25.529 just to go. Yeah. I enjoy a little modern dance 01:21:25.529 --> 01:21:27.850 and then a little dirt track stock car racing 01:21:27.850 --> 01:21:31.649 Saturday nights. Fine too. Yeah. Yeah. They're 01:21:31.649 --> 01:21:34.229 probably closet poetry readers themselves and 01:21:34.229 --> 01:21:37.510 not, not ready to admit it yet. I do know some 01:21:37.510 --> 01:21:41.770 of them know some limericks. There we go. All 01:21:41.770 --> 01:21:44.369 right. Well, speaking about the, we're talking 01:21:44.369 --> 01:21:47.270 about the volunteer side then. I don't know if 01:21:47.270 --> 01:21:49.090 you had the same experience. The whole time I 01:21:49.090 --> 01:21:51.250 was in the fire service, I never lived right 01:21:51.250 --> 01:21:53.989 where I served. And this is, I think, one of 01:21:53.989 --> 01:21:56.930 the least discussed elements of our volunteers, 01:21:57.029 --> 01:21:58.930 of which makes the majority of the fire service 01:21:58.930 --> 01:22:03.069 here, is firstly, you know, knowing the people 01:22:03.069 --> 01:22:05.409 that you're running on. So let's start with that 01:22:05.409 --> 01:22:07.630 now. When you come home, as you mentioned, some 01:22:07.630 --> 01:22:10.210 of the people you were in uniform with were people 01:22:10.210 --> 01:22:11.949 that you went to school with, some were new people. 01:22:13.899 --> 01:22:17.079 Be a voice for the volunteers around the country, 01:22:17.140 --> 01:22:19.520 around the world, as far as the impact of running 01:22:19.520 --> 01:22:22.180 on your neighbor, the pros and the cons of running 01:22:22.180 --> 01:22:26.180 and or protecting your neighbors. I mean, the 01:22:26.180 --> 01:22:29.140 cons are easy. The cons are your heart, your 01:22:29.140 --> 01:22:33.300 soul getting broken when you fail to help a neighbor 01:22:33.300 --> 01:22:39.550 or a loved one. I have a brother who lost his 01:22:39.550 --> 01:22:41.489 first wife seven weeks into their marriage and 01:22:41.489 --> 01:22:43.590 he was first unseen and he didn't even recognize 01:22:43.590 --> 01:22:51.409 her car. And so the price of that is everlasting. 01:22:53.229 --> 01:22:56.810 Now he also, and I don't want to speak for him, 01:22:56.869 --> 01:23:00.029 I'm just secondhand speaking for him, I guess. 01:23:01.729 --> 01:23:06.659 He also held her for her last breath. your wife 01:23:06.659 --> 01:23:09.619

that you love you you know my father my mom just 01:23:09.619 --> 01:23:13.399 died at 84 of a lingering illness so it was not 01:23:13.399 --> 01:23:16.500 a surprise but my father her husband of 63 years 01:23:16.500 --> 01:23:19.619 got to hold her hand literally as she took her 01:23:19.619 --> 01:23:24.500 final breath so that is a great privilege but 01:23:24.500 --> 01:23:27.819 as in the case of my brother it's also exacts 01:23:27.819 --> 01:23:31.010 a great price I think I wrote in the book about 01:23:31.010 --> 01:23:33.430 going on a call and failing to save someone. 01:23:33.510 --> 01:23:36.850 Nothing went wrong. If you're in the business, 01:23:37.029 --> 01:23:39.149 if you will, you know that's often how it ends. 01:23:40.609 --> 01:23:45.449 And then go into the store the next day. trying 01:23:45.449 --> 01:23:47.489 to sell raffle tickets to raise money for the 01:23:47.489 --> 01:23:49.350 fire department. And I was trying to sell raffle 01:23:49.350 --> 01:23:51.590 tickets to this woman. And I realized she was, 01:23:51.609 --> 01:23:53.229 I don't remember now, like the daughter or the 01:23:53.229 --> 01:23:55.010 granddaughter of the person we failed to save. 01:23:55.310 --> 01:23:58.109 So there I was, what, 24, 48 hours later going, 01:23:58.250 --> 01:23:59.949 hey, I'm sorry how it worked out with your grandma, 01:24:00.069 --> 01:24:02.510 but would you like to buy a raffle ticket? And 01:24:02.510 --> 01:24:05.989 realizing who this was. So that proximity can 01:24:05.989 --> 01:24:08.789 lead to some difficult moments. She was very 01:24:08.789 --> 01:24:14.960 gracious. But in the end, I just think. For me, 01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:21.159 at least, there was this deepening understanding 01:24:21.159 --> 01:24:25.779 of place and mortality. And the irony of me using 01:24:25.779 --> 01:24:27.479 the word place is that I have a deep sense of 01:24:27.479 --> 01:24:30.600 place. There's six square miles I grew up in 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:34.340 that I just feel to my bones. And when I wrote 01:24:34.340 --> 01:24:36.720 the book Population 485, it was about that sense 01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:38.420 of place. And it was about how I never saw myself 01:24:38.420 --> 01:24:44.390 leaving. And I think it was five. Five years 01:24:44.390 --> 01:24:47.130 later, I left. Now I moved 40 minutes down the 01:24:47.130 --> 01:24:50.789 road. I was just up there three days ago. Still 01:24:50.789 --> 01:24:53.369 have friends up there still. Actually, this spring 01:24:53.369 --> 01:24:55.609 was up there while they had a wildfire and they 01:24:55.609 --> 01:24:58.090 needed help. So I grabbed my stuff and fought 01:24:58.090 --> 01:25:01.010 the wildfire with my old crew, at least what's 01:25:01.010 --> 01:25:02.590 left of them. Most of the youngsters I didn't 01:25:02.590 --> 01:25:05.789 recognize. Also, honesty compels me to tell you 01:25:05.789 --> 01:25:07.829 that I got there late and I hardly got any ashes 01:25:07.829 --> 01:25:10.470 on my suit at all. It was like the cleanest wildfire 01:25:10.470 --> 01:25:14.699 fighter you've ever seen. But that sense of place 01:25:14.699 --> 01:25:17.859 just really deepened with the experience. I think 01:25:17.859 --> 01:25:20.560 the positives are, I know the positive that I 01:25:20.560 --> 01:25:22.600 could say is when you save the life of someone 01:25:22.600 --> 01:25:26.079 that means a lot to the community or you save 01:25:26.079 --> 01:25:28.279 the life of someone and that means so much to 01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:32.619 their family. But honestly, I think some of the 01:25:32.619 --> 01:25:35.800 most meaningful times were when, I'm not going 01:25:35.800 --> 01:25:38.779 to name a name here, but I knew an old man in 01:25:38.779 --> 01:25:43.640 the area. He was a mentor. He was very, very 01:25:43.640 --> 01:25:46.220 dear to me. He was even more dear to my wife. 01:25:46.260 --> 01:25:49.300 She knew him when she was growing up. And his 01:25:49.300 --> 01:25:51.800 place was a place of refuge for her and her sisters 01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:56.560 at times. And when his wife died, he called 911. 01:25:56.720 --> 01:26:00.699 And because of the way the rules work, I was 01:26:00.699 --> 01:26:03.260 the first one through the door. And I said, you 01:26:03.260 --> 01:26:06.960 know, I have to. I knew that his wife was in 01:26:06.960 --> 01:26:10.039 terrible health, terrible cardiac conditions. 01:26:12.279 --> 01:26:15.100 I also knew they did not have a DNR and he had 01:26:15.100 --> 01:26:18.380 called me and there are rules. And so I said 01:26:18.380 --> 01:26:21.420 to him, I'll just say Bob, his name's not Bob. 01:26:21.479 --> 01:26:25.659 I said, Bob, you know that I have to start now. 01:26:25.760 --> 01:26:27.859 And he said, I understand that. And so I started 01:26:27.859 --> 01:26:30.399 CPR and, you know, got defibrillator. And then 01:26:30.399 --> 01:26:33.359 sheriff's deputies came and they helped. And 01:26:33.359 --> 01:26:35.699 we're in the house that I knew she never wanted 01:26:35.699 --> 01:26:41.159 to leave. Fortunately, enough help came, and 01:26:41.159 --> 01:26:43.439 I knew enough of her health history very specifically 01:26:43.439 --> 01:26:46.159 that I was able to advise the paramedics in advance. 01:26:46.239 --> 01:26:48.060 They were able to get medical control on the 01:26:48.060 --> 01:26:50.560 horn even before they were there. Then they came 01:26:50.560 --> 01:26:52.500 in and did what they had to do, and under guidance 01:26:52.500 --> 01:26:54.680 of medical control, were able to call it, as 01:26:54.680 --> 01:26:59.520 we say, in the house. And then I sat. Eventually, 01:26:59.899 --> 01:27:01.439 everybody left, and we had to wait for the medical 01:27:01.439 --> 01:27:04.239 examiner, and I sat. with the husband for, I 01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:06.260 think it was two hours before the medical examiner 01:27:06.260 --> 01:27:09.680 got there,

with her, you know, right beside us, 01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:13.260 frankly. And I've never written about that, and 01:27:13.260 --> 01:27:14.979 I don't talk about it much, and I try to keep 01:27:14.979 --> 01:27:17.000 it as anonymous as possible. But the reason I 01:27:17.000 --> 01:27:19.039 bring it up is that when you say what are the 01:27:19.039 --> 01:27:21.539 greatest joys or successes or what is the most 01:27:21.539 --> 01:27:24.579 meaningful, oddly enough, it can be the times 01:27:24.579 --> 01:27:28.250 when you don't save a life. but you're present 01:27:28.250 --> 01:27:31.010 for the people remaining behind and you can just 01:27:31.010 --> 01:27:33.649 take time. And I just remember sitting by him 01:27:33.649 --> 01:27:36.369 and, and then coming home and telling my wife 01:27:36.369 --> 01:27:39.510 and she, I think she knew where I was going when 01:27:39.510 --> 01:27:41.750 I left. I we're very good in our family about, 01:27:41.770 --> 01:27:43.810 I can make a call one mailbox down the street 01:27:43.810 --> 01:27:47.989 and I don't say anything about it. But in that 01:27:47.989 --> 01:27:49.869 case, she, she knew, I think she heard the call 01:27:49.869 --> 01:27:51.489 come in and she knew the address and she knew 01:27:51.489 --> 01:27:53.750 probably what the news was going to be. But I 01:27:53.750 --> 01:27:55.750 just remember telling her what a, what an honor. 01:27:56.159 --> 01:28:01.159 It was to sit with him, with her. So, yeah, I 01:28:01.159 --> 01:28:04.300 think sometimes it's just about being present 01:28:04.300 --> 01:28:09.739 for the family and the loved ones. My first book, 01:28:09.819 --> 01:28:11.800 I wrote one of the chapters and it was simply 01:28:11.800 --> 01:28:17.460 a back to bed call. But the impact that you have 01:28:17.460 --> 01:28:19.960 on an elderly couple that were once young and 01:28:19.960 --> 01:28:23.250 able. And the shame and guilt of this man now 01:28:23.250 --> 01:28:26.170 in his 80s who can't pick the love of his life 01:28:26.170 --> 01:28:29.850 off the floor anymore, who soiled herself. And 01:28:29.850 --> 01:28:32.229 a crew comes in and they take her to the bathroom, 01:28:32.329 --> 01:28:34.029 they clean her up, they do a medical evaluation, 01:28:34.329 --> 01:28:37.609 they put her back to bed. That to me is as if 01:28:37.609 --> 01:28:39.729 not more important than the extrications and 01:28:39.729 --> 01:28:43.449 the fires and all the air quotes heroic shit 01:28:43.449 --> 01:28:46.090 that we do. And so I think that is at the core. 01:28:46.560 --> 01:28:50.460 of who we are, which is why with the crisis that 01:28:50.460 --> 01:28:52.399 we're in at the moment on the career side, the 01:28:52.399 --> 01:28:54.939 recruitment and retention issues that we have, 01:28:55.039 --> 01:28:57.260 and the overstaffing and the mandatory overtime, 01:28:57.439 --> 01:29:01.140 the compassion fatigue, that very nucleus of 01:29:01.140 --> 01:29:04.279 who

we are starts getting fractured. And then 01:29:04.279 --> 01:29:05.979 you get people complaining about those calls 01:29:05.979 --> 01:29:09.760 where just, I agree 100%, those human moments 01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:12.420 are really where it's at. And then on the flip 01:29:12.420 --> 01:29:15.399 side, on the mental health side, It's not the 01:29:15.399 --> 01:29:19.119 gore that gets to us. It's the screams of the 01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:23.460 people that love that person that haunt us. Yeah, 01:29:23.500 --> 01:29:29.079 I think for whatever reason, I just had a talk 01:29:29.079 --> 01:29:31.300 with my daughter yesterday and she was having 01:29:31.300 --> 01:29:34.439 some struggles and it's the kind of thing that 01:29:34.439 --> 01:29:37.220 it's a struggle as a parent. It preoccupies you. 01:29:37.619 --> 01:29:40.979 And I was talking to her about both she and I 01:29:40.979 --> 01:29:45.899 are very emotive, very... emotionally open. I 01:29:45.899 --> 01:29:49.060 mean, I'm, I'm a very stoic outwardly, but I 01:29:49.060 --> 01:29:52.159 always say I, I look like a logger, but I feel 01:29:52.159 --> 01:29:54.819 things like a poet and that's a bad combination. 01:29:56.359 --> 01:29:59.739 And I, I can get very emotional and very sentimental, 01:29:59.739 --> 01:30:02.180 but for whatever reason, and I'm, and I'm, I 01:30:02.180 --> 01:30:05.260 care about my patients and I make, you know, 01:30:05.279 --> 01:30:07.479 eye contact and I want to do the best I can. 01:30:08.479 --> 01:30:12.109 And yet. This gets back to me joking about the 01:30:12.109 --> 01:30:14.149 people who say you must be very brave and noble. 01:30:14.310 --> 01:30:17.289 And I just say, no, I mean, basically being from 01:30:17.289 --> 01:30:20.010 a small town in rural America, I had the two 01:30:20.010 --> 01:30:21.750 things they were looking for in a firefighter, 01:30:21.750 --> 01:30:27.130 a pulse and a valid driver's license. But the 01:30:27.130 --> 01:30:30.289 truth is I'm very, very sensitive person. But 01:30:30.289 --> 01:30:34.029 for whatever reason, it's not that I'm brave 01:30:34.029 --> 01:30:36.489 or I can stand the sight of blood. For whatever 01:30:36.489 --> 01:30:39.220 reason, I'm able to care deeply. But then I'm 01:30:39.220 --> 01:30:41.600 able to say, in order to help this person, I 01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:44.439 can't get emotional. And then also in the wake 01:30:44.439 --> 01:30:47.460 of it, for some reason, I'm able to just say 01:30:47.460 --> 01:30:51.180 that was awful and that was how it is. And I 01:30:51.180 --> 01:30:53.979 internalize it and I seem to be able to move 01:30:53.979 --> 01:30:59.640 on. So I preface that to say that that said, 01:30:59.760 --> 01:31:04.699 I remember being on a call where we had to go 01:31:04.699 --> 01:31:08.000 into the woods to find someone. And we found 01:31:08.000 --> 01:31:12.399 this person deceased. And I just remember a deputy 01:31:12.399 --> 01:31:14.819 headed back out

to the road where the family 01:31:14.819 --> 01:31:17.880 was waiting and through the woods in the darkness, 01:31:17.880 --> 01:31:21.619 hearing the screams, not of someone being hurt, 01:31:21.699 --> 01:31:24.500 but of someone being told. And that's, yeah, 01:31:24.600 --> 01:31:28.159 that's the kind of thing that it's, again, once 01:31:28.159 --> 01:31:31.000 you hear that, it's hard to care about the person 01:31:31.000 --> 01:31:33.319 mad because they're fifth in the checkout line. 01:31:35.010 --> 01:31:40.289 Yeah, absolutely. With that being said, when 01:31:40.289 --> 01:31:43.510 you work for a career department and I was a 01:31:43.510 --> 01:31:47.090 paramedic, firefighter paramedic on a busy rescue 01:31:47.090 --> 01:31:51.449 company for a long time, as far as the EMS side, 01:31:51.550 --> 01:31:55.689 and just running call after call after call, 01:31:55.750 --> 01:31:58.430 all kinds of, I wrote my first book, like my 01:31:58.430 --> 01:32:00.449 last shift. And this wasn't because it, this 01:32:00.449 --> 01:32:02.989 just didn't. make it my last shift just happened 01:32:02.989 --> 01:32:04.569 to be my last shift before i moved to a different 01:32:04.569 --> 01:32:06.689 department there were three different fatalities 01:32:06.689 --> 01:32:08.689 one of which was a missing woman in the woods 01:32:08.689 --> 01:32:12.090 it's funny you say that um but you know every 01:32:12.090 --> 01:32:15.510 time you have these horrendous events you then 01:32:15.510 --> 01:32:19.250 get to clean up the rig go back to the station 01:32:19.250 --> 01:32:21.590 now these busy stations you might not be there 01:32:21.590 --> 01:32:24.170 very long but you have peers that were there 01:32:24.170 --> 01:32:25.750 with you that understand what you're talking 01:32:25.750 --> 01:32:29.180 about So there's an offloading process, talking 01:32:29.180 --> 01:32:30.840 to the doctors and nurses. You go back to the 01:32:30.840 --> 01:32:32.579 hospital again. Hey, how did that patient do? 01:32:32.699 --> 01:32:34.359 Oh, they died an hour later. Okay, well, you 01:32:34.359 --> 01:32:35.899 know, you've got some sort of closure there. 01:32:37.180 --> 01:32:39.420 Well, a few years ago, I think it was just over 01:32:39.420 --> 01:32:41.579 three years ago now, I was on a plane on the 01:32:41.579 --> 01:32:43.579 tarmac in Heathrow getting ready to come home, 01:32:43.680 --> 01:32:48.079 and there was a commotion, and I looked behind 01:32:48.079 --> 01:32:51.060 me, and the last passenger on the plane had face 01:32:51.060 --> 01:32:54.060 -planted. And unlike these stories where there 01:32:54.060 --> 01:32:55.979 were 20 cardiologists on their way home from 01:32:55.979 --> 01:32:58.539 a conference, there was no one with emergency 01:32:58.539 --> 01:33:00.859 medicine background. There was a couple of people 01:33:00.859 --> 01:33:03.100 that had CPR training, which was phenomenal. 01:33:03.239 --> 01:33:09.699 And then the air

hostesses were well -trained 01:33:09.699 --> 01:33:12.479 as far as the equipment that they had. But there 01:33:12.479 --> 01:33:14.720 were standing orders where they had to get... 01:33:14.840 --> 01:33:18.199 permission to open every single medical bag, 01:33:18.340 --> 01:33:21.460 the oxygen, the AED. I mean, you name it, every 01:33:21.460 --> 01:33:23.819 single one. So it took forever. So we're working 01:33:23.819 --> 01:33:27.060 this guy in the aisle of the plane between the 01:33:27.060 --> 01:33:29.300 seats, you know, trying to do some version of 01:33:29.300 --> 01:33:33.420 CPR, no airway, you know, no barrier or anything. 01:33:33.539 --> 01:33:36.539 So a very long story short, end up working this 01:33:36.539 --> 01:33:38.460 code, London ambulance comes eventually, you 01:33:38.460 --> 01:33:40.739 know, so I washed the blood off my hands and 01:33:40.739 --> 01:33:43.600 then go sit back down. And it's the first time 01:33:43.600 --> 01:33:46.199 that I've worked a cardiac arrest outside of 01:33:46.199 --> 01:33:49.420 my uniform. And I was feeling weird. And I'm 01:33:49.420 --> 01:33:50.840 like, what is this feeling? And then I was like, 01:33:50.920 --> 01:33:53.800 oh, this is how you're supposed to feel when 01:33:53.800 --> 01:33:57.539 someone dies. I get it now. I ended up talking 01:33:57.539 --> 01:33:59.800 to the flight crew the rest of the trip. They 01:33:59.800 --> 01:34:01.899 actually put me into first class away from where 01:34:01.899 --> 01:34:06.180 I was sitting. talking them through it. There 01:34:06.180 --> 01:34:08.460 was one that she'd been working, I think, 26 01:34:08.460 --> 01:34:11.100 years. That was the first cardiac arrest she'd 01:34:11.100 --> 01:34:12.979 ever had on the flight. I think Virgin only has 01:34:12.979 --> 01:34:15.560 like four around the world every year or something 01:34:15.560 --> 01:34:18.819 like that. So really, it was good that I was 01:34:18.819 --> 01:34:21.060 able to help in that way as well. But the reason 01:34:21.060 --> 01:34:25.279 I'm saying this is our volunteers work the call 01:34:25.279 --> 01:34:28.460 and then they go back to work or they go home, 01:34:28.479 --> 01:34:32.159 as you said. So again, Talk to me about that, 01:34:32.180 --> 01:34:34.920 that jarring nature of not only responding sometimes 01:34:34.920 --> 01:34:37.600 to your friends and maybe even family members, 01:34:37.739 --> 01:34:40.420 but then having to slip back into whether it's 01:34:40.420 --> 01:34:42.479 your home to write or the garage to carry on 01:34:42.479 --> 01:34:44.420 fixing that Ford that you were working on before 01:34:44.420 --> 01:34:47.460 the call. Because again, I think this is an underrepresented 01:34:47.460 --> 01:34:50.319 story when it comes to the fire service in America. 01:34:51.140 --> 01:34:54.619 I think there's been some progress made. I will 01:34:54.619 --> 01:34:58.130 say the most, I had an airplane call too. just 01:34:58.130 --> 01:35:00.569 tell the very short version same deal as you 01:35:00.569 --> 01:35:05.489 heard um heard someone screaming behind me they 01:35:05.489 --> 01:35:08.050 did that is there are there any doctors and i 01:35:08.050 --> 01:35:10.229 did this you know you do that it's not that you 01:35:10.229 --> 01:35:11.890 don't want to help but you know if there's someone 01:35:11.890 --> 01:35:13.689 else to lead the charge you're happy to fall 01:35:13.689 --> 01:35:17.130 in and there was no one and i thought well i 01:35:17.130 --> 01:35:18.689 guess i'm the best they're going to get so i 01:35:18.689 --> 01:35:22.569 went back and um i started working on this person 01:35:22.569 --> 01:35:25.750 who was down on on the ground and i remember 01:35:25.750 --> 01:35:28.409 looking up to see if anyone else had come to 01:35:28.409 --> 01:35:30.310 help and there were three people filming with 01:35:30.310 --> 01:35:33.289 their cameras and i just remember the rage that 01:35:33.289 --> 01:35:36.649 i felt i thought this this is one time where 01:35:36.649 --> 01:35:40.010 i just i couldn't control oh i did control my 01:35:40.010 --> 01:35:43.270 rage i guess but that really shakes your faith 01:35:43.270 --> 01:35:46.609 in humanity it turned out the call went well 01:35:46.609 --> 01:35:49.770 and i have a longer story with a little bit of 01:35:49.770 --> 01:35:51.949 humor that i tell about it but that's for another 01:35:51.949 --> 01:35:58.319 time The strangest call I ever had where I had 01:35:58.319 --> 01:36:01.819 to go right back to work. I was performing in 01:36:01.819 --> 01:36:07.560 a sold out 400 seat theater. And it dates back 01:36:07.560 --> 01:36:09.760 to the old logging days. So it's this opulent 01:36:09.760 --> 01:36:12.319 jewel box theater in Wisconsin, which people 01:36:12.319 --> 01:36:14.180 in LA are always surprised to hear we have. We 01:36:14.180 --> 01:36:15.760 have a bunch of them because of old lumbermen 01:36:15.760 --> 01:36:17.560 would build them for their daughters, basically. 01:36:18.569 --> 01:36:21.409 And they have very steep wooden stairs. And there 01:36:21.409 --> 01:36:23.729 was some commotion in the back. And I'm well 01:36:23.729 --> 01:36:25.489 into my thing. And it's a humor performance. 01:36:25.789 --> 01:36:28.350 So thankfully, folks were laughing. And there 01:36:28.350 --> 01:36:32.010 was this commotion. And someone hollered. Someone 01:36:32.010 --> 01:36:34.050 had passed out and gone down these stairs and 01:36:34.050 --> 01:36:35.949 had a head injury. And they were unresponsive. 01:36:36.529 --> 01:36:39.310 And my van was parked right outside. The furloughed 01:36:39.310 --> 01:36:42.289 in was right outside the door. And they said, 01:36:42.449 --> 01:36:45.050 is there anyone in the house that can help? And 01:36:45.050 --> 01:36:50.170 I was standing on stage at the mic. And I sent 01:36:50.170 --> 01:36:54.069 my, I think my helper to run, I said, get my 01:36:54.069 -->

01:36:56.430 stuff out of the van. And I went running through 01:36:56.430 --> 01:37:00.829 the crowd and worked on the patient. My helper 01:37:00.829 --> 01:37:06.250 brought in my bag and my defib. And then ambulance 01:37:06.250 --> 01:37:09.949 got there and they took over. And I said, I kind 01:37:09.949 --> 01:37:11.810 of got to get back. So I went back to the stage 01:37:11.810 --> 01:37:13.609 and I just said, you know, the best. And they're 01:37:13.609 --> 01:37:15.329 still working in the back. And I said to the 01:37:15.329 --> 01:37:16.789 audience, I said, you know, the best thing we 01:37:16.789 --> 01:37:20.079 can do here. We're just going to get back into 01:37:20.079 --> 01:37:22.159 things and let them do their job because they 01:37:22.159 --> 01:37:24.199 don't need us all watching them or listening. 01:37:24.640 --> 01:37:27.720 And so I just dove back into the show, but I 01:37:27.720 --> 01:37:31.199 finished the show with an emergency bag and a 01:37:31.199 --> 01:37:33.539 defib kit on the stage beside me. And I said, 01:37:33.699 --> 01:37:38.159 that was a first. But to get to your more serious 01:37:38.159 --> 01:37:42.380 question. One thing I saw had changed while I 01:37:42.380 --> 01:37:45.260 was, again, I hit a lot of things sort of at 01:37:45.260 --> 01:37:49.399 a bridge point or break point, maybe. I caught 01:37:49.399 --> 01:37:51.779 the last of the, we're smoke eaters, we don't 01:37:51.779 --> 01:37:53.880 need no masks, we're just going to go to the 01:37:53.880 --> 01:37:59.840 hall and drink beers. And I watched that transition 01:37:59.840 --> 01:38:04.539 into SCBAs and better training. But I was also 01:38:04.539 --> 01:38:08.619 present for the initiation of... critical incident 01:38:08.619 --> 01:38:12.300 stress debriefing. And I remember one of the 01:38:12.300 --> 01:38:15.399 most valuable lessons I learned about CISD was 01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:18.319 we had an accident. It was a fatality, a young 01:38:18.319 --> 01:38:21.899 girl in the community. I was working on her with 01:38:21.899 --> 01:38:26.100 my mom and my sister was there and many other 01:38:26.100 --> 01:38:29.439 firefighters. And it was a terrible call because 01:38:29.439 --> 01:38:32.100 her father arrived partway through and we had 01:38:32.100 --> 01:38:35.180 to land a chopper and fly her out and she did 01:38:35.180 --> 01:38:39.470 not make it. And so they had a critical incident 01:38:39.470 --> 01:38:41.069 stress debriefing. Now, I'm going to say something 01:38:41.069 --> 01:38:44.350 that, again, potentially gets me into trouble 01:38:44.350 --> 01:38:46.869 with some folks, but I am not being dismissive 01:38:46.869 --> 01:38:49.069 at all. But I mentioned already, for whatever 01:38:49.069 --> 01:38:51.930 reason, I've always been wired such that if I 01:38:51.930 --> 01:38:55.689 see something awful, I go home and I run it over 01:38:55.689 --> 01:38:57.329 and over. I remember one of the worst suicides 01:38:57.329 --> 01:38:59.250 I've ever been on. I just ran the picture over 01:38:59.250 --> 01:39:03.300 and over and over. And by morning. I have a place 01:39:03.300 --> 01:39:05.000 for it. That's the only way I can explain it. 01:39:05.020 --> 01:39:07.680 It's not that I'm over it or that there's closure. 01:39:07.880 --> 01:39:10.979 It's just like, I understand what I saw. I understand 01:39:10.979 --> 01:39:13.100 that I've done what I could do. And now that 01:39:13.100 --> 01:39:16.500 is almost like it's a photo in an album and it's 01:39:16.500 --> 01:39:19.340 part of me, but it doesn't run me. And I'm just 01:39:19.340 --> 01:39:22.319 that way with almost all tragedies that I've 01:39:22.319 --> 01:39:26.180 been part of. But we had this critical instance 01:39:26.180 --> 01:39:30.170 stress debriefing and. Of course, as you know, 01:39:30.189 --> 01:39:32.130 you don't talk about what went on in there. The 01:39:32.130 --> 01:39:35.069 only thing that I can say is what the lesson 01:39:35.069 --> 01:39:37.369 that I learned that it turned out that the two 01:39:37.369 --> 01:39:40.029 folks who were the most troubled, who were really 01:39:40.029 --> 01:39:43.229 struggling with this call, weren't even with 01:39:43.229 --> 01:39:45.829 the victim. They were two young firefighters 01:39:45.829 --> 01:39:48.270 who had just started and we had put them on traffic 01:39:48.270 --> 01:39:51.930 control a mile back. They needed to keep the 01:39:51.930 --> 01:39:55.800 scene safe and divert people. They were both 01:39:55.800 --> 01:39:57.920 struggling, saying we felt like we didn't really 01:39:57.920 --> 01:40:01.699 do anything for her. And to have then a circle 01:40:01.699 --> 01:40:04.939 of firefighters explain to them, no, the fact 01:40:04.939 --> 01:40:07.300 that you were doing your job allowed us to turn 01:40:07.300 --> 01:40:10.979 our backs to everything but this girl. So that 01:40:10.979 --> 01:40:13.520 was an important lesson for me to never assume 01:40:13.520 --> 01:40:15.819 that, you know, it has to be the person that 01:40:15.819 --> 01:40:18.699 saw the worst of it. It can just be the perspective 01:40:18.699 --> 01:40:22.760 or the person's makeup. And so I was lucky to 01:40:22.760 --> 01:40:29.229 see CISD. used effectively and used well i will 01:40:29.229 --> 01:40:31.550 and and i think you know it's a lot like honestly 01:40:31.550 --> 01:40:33.909 the discussion about mental health in this country 01:40:33.909 --> 01:40:37.590 has become you know with athletes and you know 01:40:37.590 --> 01:40:39.710 my brother the logger talking about his panic 01:40:39.710 --> 01:40:43.899 attacks and i think that's a real positive I'm 01:40:43.899 --> 01:40:45.779 not qualified to get into the next part of the 01:40:45.779 --> 01:40:48.779 conversation. And I really, again, I keep saying 01:40:48.779 --> 01:40:50.899 I'm going to get in trouble. I do think there's 01:40:50.899 --> 01:40:53.880 a fine line

though. And it does seem like, you 01:40:53.880 --> 01:40:55.520 know, there've been studies that show that people 01:40:55.520 --> 01:40:59.039 are wired differently. And sometimes you can, 01:40:59.140 --> 01:41:02.140 I'm not qualified to talk. I just think it's 01:41:02.140 --> 01:41:04.739 a critically important tool. I'm so glad it's 01:41:04.739 --> 01:41:07.680 been implemented. There are times when I feel 01:41:07.680 --> 01:41:11.619 like the trigger is more hair trigger than I 01:41:11.619 --> 01:41:15.100 would think. It's necessary, but I could be wrong. 01:41:16.659 --> 01:41:19.220 Bottom line, I think it was really important 01:41:19.220 --> 01:41:21.880 to get away from that whole suck it up and move 01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:26.539 on thing. Absolutely destructive. What's interesting, 01:41:26.699 --> 01:41:28.060 I've had this conversation with a few people 01:41:28.060 --> 01:41:30.060 now, but our generation, I think I'm 10 years 01:41:30.060 --> 01:41:34.720 younger than you, so Gen X -ish. We have such 01:41:34.720 --> 01:41:38.800 an amazing opportunity to really... be the voice 01:41:38.800 --> 01:41:40.979 for mental health. And the reason I say that 01:41:40.979 --> 01:41:44.859 is we grew up under parents, under sounds like 01:41:44.859 --> 01:41:47.500 a weird word, but with parents who were of that 01:41:47.500 --> 01:41:49.279 generation, who were only a couple of clicks 01:41:49.279 --> 01:41:52.819 from the Victorians. And then out we watching 01:41:52.819 --> 01:41:56.340 now some of the again, the extremists on on some 01:41:56.340 --> 01:41:59.180 voices now where everything is offensive, everything 01:41:59.180 --> 01:42:00.720 is triggering, you can't talk about anything, 01:42:00.840 --> 01:42:03.300 which is no different than suck it up buttercup, 01:42:03.380 --> 01:42:07.390 you have eliminated communication. And so we 01:42:07.390 --> 01:42:09.449 have the ability to pull on the reins from our 01:42:09.449 --> 01:42:12.270 kids' generation and say, hey, as you said, there's 01:42:12.270 --> 01:42:14.949 an element of suck it up in life, but there's 01:42:14.949 --> 01:42:17.670 also a time to say I need help. It's a time to 01:42:17.670 --> 01:42:20.149 offload, talk about things. Absolutely. And then 01:42:20.149 --> 01:42:22.090 you can also turn around the other way to our 01:42:22.090 --> 01:42:24.750 parents and say, hey, what you went through when 01:42:24.750 --> 01:42:28.189 you were young absolutely had an impact on you. 01:42:28.689 --> 01:42:32.210 And then I'll give you a perfect example. When 01:42:32.210 --> 01:42:34.289 we were young, we were told that the World War 01:42:34.289 --> 01:42:36.329 II generation were the greatest generation. They 01:42:36.329 --> 01:42:38.029 just rolled up their sleeves and they went back 01:42:38.029 --> 01:42:41.590 to work. And then you do 1 ,300 interviews of 01:42:41.590 --> 01:42:44.270 which many of these guests have had grandparents 01:42:44.270 --> 01:42:48.090 or sometimes fathers that were in World War II. 01:42:48.210 --> 01:42:50.430 And you're like, no, no, no, no, no. They didn't 01:42:50.430 --> 01:42:52.810 do well coming back. They beat their wives. They 01:42:52.810 --> 01:42:55.670 drank themselves into oblivion. And that's generalization 01:42:55.670 --> 01:42:57.770 again. But a lot of them absolutely struggled 01:42:57.770 --> 01:42:59.649 because how could you not after going through 01:42:59.649 --> 01:43:04.560 that? for five years so understanding that there's 01:43:04.560 --> 01:43:07.840 an ability to for the gen x to send those messages 01:43:07.840 --> 01:43:11.220 both ways but step one is that we have to do 01:43:11.220 --> 01:43:14.000 the work ourselves we have to be vulnerable we 01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:16.600 have to look for the tools that work and i think 01:43:16.600 --> 01:43:19.460 that it's a very exciting time because now it's 01:43:19.460 --> 01:43:22.119 opened up a brand new conversation to me at least 01:43:22.960 --> 01:43:25.859 If you say you want to volunteer to be a firefighter 01:43:25.859 --> 01:43:28.000 or have a career as a firefighter, a police officer 01:43:28.000 --> 01:43:29.880 or a soldier, you've probably been through some 01:43:29.880 --> 01:43:33.159 shit when you were young. And that's okay. And 01:43:33.159 --> 01:43:35.840 if we work through that the same way as we do 01:43:35.840 --> 01:43:38.619 PT and pull hoes and throw ladders, we'll turn 01:43:38.619 --> 01:43:41.500 that into a superpower. You will be more resilient. 01:43:41.640 --> 01:43:44.399 You will be more empathetic. But if we just don't 01:43:44.399 --> 01:43:46.060 talk about it and shove it down, it's going to 01:43:46.060 --> 01:43:49.130 be a fracture to your foundation. I think there's 01:43:49.130 --> 01:43:51.489 an exciting new version of the mental health 01:43:51.489 --> 01:43:54.369 conversation, which is performance. Let's address 01:43:54.369 --> 01:43:56.750 these things because then you will be a better 01:43:56.750 --> 01:43:59.590 paramedic, a better firefighter if we talk about 01:43:59.590 --> 01:44:04.409 it. Yeah, I come from that. And I joke about 01:44:04.409 --> 01:44:08.229 it. I come from that stoic Scandinavian Midwestern 01:44:08.229 --> 01:44:12.640 background. And by the way, I love it. I don't 01:44:12.640 --> 01:44:15.880 necessarily need to be unburdening myself 24 01:44:15.880 --> 01:44:19.680 -7. I like keeping, one of the jokes I make is 01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:21.760 that I don't want to talk about my feelings and 01:44:21.760 --> 01:44:25.760 you can't make me. But ironically, what have 01:44:25.760 --> 01:44:28.840 I done? I've made a living as a memoirist, writing 01:44:28.840 --> 01:44:31.899 about my feelings, thousands and thousands of 01:44:31.899 --> 01:44:35.539 words about my feelings. So, of course, it's 01:44:35.539 --> 01:44:37.619 that balance. I've had that, you know, I have 01:44:37.619 --> 01:44:39.359 a daughter

who's had some real struggles and 01:44:39.359 --> 01:44:41.770 has been put. through some real struggles by 01:44:41.770 --> 01:44:44.989 other people. And one of the things we talk about 01:44:44.989 --> 01:44:47.470 is, you know, get help, talk about these things, 01:44:47.609 --> 01:44:51.109 explore them, but also you're never going to 01:44:51.109 --> 01:44:54.449 be able to tally up, make the score even. And 01:44:54.449 --> 01:44:56.430 in some cases you're just going to have to move 01:44:56.430 --> 01:44:59.170 on from that hit. And it's not about being callous 01:44:59.170 --> 01:45:01.590 and it's not about being dismissive. It's just 01:45:01.590 --> 01:45:06.300 about kind of doing the emotional math. Somewhere 01:45:06.300 --> 01:45:07.960 in the, well, here we are, we're back at the 01:45:07.960 --> 01:45:10.020 middle again, right? I mean, that's kind of a 01:45:10.020 --> 01:45:13.399 recurring theme. It's so strange, isn't it? Yeah. 01:45:15.380 --> 01:45:17.220 All right. I want to hit one more area and then 01:45:17.220 --> 01:45:19.300 we'll go to your latest book where it ties a 01:45:19.300 --> 01:45:20.520 lot of the things that we've been talking about 01:45:20.520 --> 01:45:24.279 together. You mentioned about some of the highs 01:45:24.279 --> 01:45:26.220 and lows that you've had with your mental health. 01:45:26.399 --> 01:45:28.539 What have been some of the darkest places that 01:45:28.539 --> 01:45:30.939 you found yourself and what are the tools that 01:45:30.939 --> 01:45:34.819 you've used to navigate those? I mean, the darkest 01:45:34.819 --> 01:45:38.920 places are when I've failed someone else. You 01:45:38.920 --> 01:45:41.600 know, in one case, I can think of a relationship. 01:45:41.760 --> 01:45:45.220 And then there just seems to be some natural 01:45:45.220 --> 01:45:48.100 cyclic darkness. And as I said, it runs in my 01:45:48.100 --> 01:45:52.180 family. I'll speak very bluntly about myself. 01:45:52.340 --> 01:45:56.680 I've never been suicidal. But I was just talking 01:45:56.680 --> 01:45:58.859 to my father about this two days ago. I said, 01:45:59.020 --> 01:46:02.779 I've never, the way I always put it is I've never 01:46:02.779 --> 01:46:06.380 gone. I've never gone looking for the truck, 01:46:06.460 --> 01:46:08.239 but there are days when I wouldn't have moved 01:46:08.239 --> 01:46:13.420 out of its path. And I've also, over the years, 01:46:13.439 --> 01:46:15.460 I'm one of those people that's in a bit of a 01:46:15.460 --> 01:46:18.380 quandary because I'm very scattered, pretty clearly 01:46:18.380 --> 01:46:23.960 ADHD or some variation of same. I've had a clinical 01:46:23.960 --> 01:46:26.199 psychologist who's read my work and also spent 01:46:26.199 --> 01:46:28.180 time talking to me who said, you know, you're 01:46:28.180 --> 01:46:32.680 manic depressive. But I'm one of those people 01:46:32.680 --> 01:46:35.659 who, It seems to have a ceiling and a floor. 01:46:36.180 --> 01:46:39.220 I don't take it lightly, but I also don't pretend 01:46:39.220 --> 01:46:41.539 that I'm under some constant trauma over it. 01:46:41.760 --> 01:46:44.520 And here's the worst part is some of my best 01:46:44.520 --> 01:46:49.380 stuff has come from that. I'm amazingly productive 01:46:49.380 --> 01:46:52.899 when I'm manic and I'm amazingly introspective 01:46:52.899 --> 01:46:56.300 and vulnerable when I'm on the downslope. I'm 01:46:56.300 --> 01:46:58.239 really careful talking about that because this 01:46:58.239 --> 01:47:01.600 is not about you don't need help. you do need 01:47:01.600 --> 01:47:03.960 help. And you, I worked in mental health when 01:47:03.960 --> 01:47:05.899 I was in nursing school and I got a pretty good 01:47:05.899 --> 01:47:08.539 understanding. And I have people in my immediate 01:47:08.539 --> 01:47:11.859 family who have gone way darker than I, and they 01:47:11.859 --> 01:47:13.800 do, you know, we do talk about it and they do 01:47:13.800 --> 01:47:17.500 get treatment and, and medication and therapy. 01:47:17.579 --> 01:47:21.260 So I only mentioned that to give you an idea 01:47:21.260 --> 01:47:24.859 that I can get pretty dark, but over 60 years, 01:47:24.880 --> 01:47:27.520 it, the darkness seems to get to a certain point 01:47:27.520 --> 01:47:31.609 and lock. And I also have a wife and children 01:47:31.609 --> 01:47:34.829 that if I went beyond that, I've promised I would 01:47:34.829 --> 01:47:40.069 tell them, and I would. How do I deal with it? 01:47:40.510 --> 01:47:45.149 Again, I kind of cheat because I just got done 01:47:45.149 --> 01:47:46.789 telling you I'm stoic. I don't want to talk about 01:47:46.789 --> 01:47:49.909 my feelings. But happening into making a living 01:47:49.909 --> 01:47:52.189 as a writer was the most therapeutic thing that 01:47:52.189 --> 01:47:55.079 ever happened. And I don't sit down and write 01:47:55.079 --> 01:47:57.739 about my feelings. I don't journal about my sad 01:47:57.739 --> 01:48:00.279 days, but I write an essay called Walking the 01:48:00.279 --> 01:48:03.680 Black Dog. You know, I talk about what it's like 01:48:03.680 --> 01:48:08.220 to wake up one morning and be inexplicably without 01:48:08.220 --> 01:48:11.960 energy and staring at my computer screen, knowing 01:48:11.960 --> 01:48:14.039 that I have work to do and my family's depending 01:48:14.039 --> 01:48:16.439 on me to do it. And I can't, I grew up logging 01:48:16.439 --> 01:48:21.970 and I can't type. I find that when I write about 01:48:21.970 --> 01:48:24.510 these things, it's a bit of a cheat because I'm 01:48:24.510 --> 01:48:27.069 not hiding from it. I'm being publicly open about 01:48:27.069 --> 01:48:30.430 it. But I always feel better after I write about 01:48:30.430 --> 01:48:35.770 it. Interesting question for you. I found writing 01:48:35.770 --> 01:48:38.869 very cathartic, hard at times, in tears sometimes, 01:48:39.149 --> 01:48:42.710 but still cathartic. And

I know that you've just 01:48:42.710 --> 01:48:46.390 been working on getting your audio back on Population 01:48:46.390 --> 01:48:53.000 485, the audiobook version. read the audio book 01:48:53.000 --> 01:48:55.979 i read both of mine as well it almost had the 01:48:55.979 --> 01:48:58.939 opposite effect because now i'm allowing that 01:48:58.939 --> 01:49:01.220 motion to come back emotion because you need 01:49:01.220 --> 01:49:03.020 it to be there you know for the listener to hear 01:49:03.020 --> 01:49:06.560 and so i think ultimately it still was cathartic 01:49:06.560 --> 01:49:09.140 but the process was so much harder than writing 01:49:09.140 --> 01:49:12.000 emotionally for me i felt like you know one it 01:49:12.000 --> 01:49:15.899 it took some of the the negative energy away 01:49:15.899 --> 01:49:17.920 and the other one you're almost inviting it back 01:49:17.920 --> 01:49:21.229 so you can you know, blurt it out into the audio 01:49:21.229 --> 01:49:23.569 version. Did you have that kind of experience 01:49:23.569 --> 01:49:26.529 at all yourself? Yeah, I mean, I've recorded, 01:49:26.689 --> 01:49:30.550 oh gosh, probably about 20 audiobooks now, all 01:49:30.550 --> 01:49:36.550 of my own. And I don't, I can't say that the 01:49:36.550 --> 01:49:38.869 experience has been the same for me. It's just 01:49:38.869 --> 01:49:42.130 a little different. I've found that, I mean, 01:49:42.130 --> 01:49:43.770 you heard it in my voice when I talked about 01:49:43.770 --> 01:49:45.510 my brother. I write about my brother in the book 01:49:45.510 --> 01:49:48.970 Population 45. And what I've found is that when 01:49:48.970 --> 01:49:51.109 I'm recording an audio book and I start, I hit 01:49:51.109 --> 01:49:54.789 those passages, my voice will break and I do 01:49:54.789 --> 01:49:59.670 get teary. And obviously I have to hold it together 01:49:59.670 --> 01:50:04.229 enough to give, to read something that's listenable. 01:50:05.270 --> 01:50:08.689 And I don't, it's not a full out weep session 01:50:08.689 --> 01:50:10.369 or anything like that, but I think it actually, 01:50:10.449 --> 01:50:14.250 for me, it helped me revisit why all that stuff 01:50:14.250 --> 01:50:21.060 was so meaningful. I, again, I want to say the 01:50:21.060 --> 01:50:23.319 right thing, but I have to be honest. I've only 01:50:23.319 --> 01:50:27.000 ever had in all my years of making calls, occasionally 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:28.720 you have a dream where you're making a call again, 01:50:28.800 --> 01:50:31.000 but it's not about traumatic memories. It's just 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:33.199 like you're in a place, just like you're in a 01:50:33.199 --> 01:50:34.720 place in many other dreams that have nothing 01:50:34.720 --> 01:50:38.600 to do with fire EMS. But I think in population 01:50:38.600 --> 01:50:40.800 45, I wrote about there's only one call I've 01:50:40.800 --> 01:50:43.439 ever had recurring dreams about that were unsettling. 01:50:43.479 -->

01:50:47.449 And that was. a state trooper that I responded 01:50:47.449 --> 01:50:51.789 to. And I was the first EMT on scene. And I knew 01:50:51.789 --> 01:50:53.689 that it was probably going to be a fatality. 01:50:53.789 --> 01:50:57.130 And indeed, when I ran up to the scene, I saw 01:50:57.130 --> 01:50:59.250 a body under a blanket. So I knew someone had 01:50:59.250 --> 01:51:02.130 already been deceased. And when I pulled the 01:51:02.130 --> 01:51:04.390 blanket back, the thing I was ready for was a 01:51:04.390 --> 01:51:07.029 big burly trooper. And it wasn't. It was a woman, 01:51:07.069 --> 01:51:12.479 a woman trooper. And she I just remember seeing 01:51:12.479 --> 01:51:15.300 her hand and it was a small hand and it was against 01:51:15.300 --> 01:51:18.979 these weeds and that I've seen that image over 01:51:18.979 --> 01:51:21.720 and over in dreams and it unsettles me. Now it's 01:51:21.720 --> 01:51:23.819 been years since it happened, but for a while, 01:51:23.819 --> 01:51:25.979 once or twice a year, I'd have a dream and all 01:51:25.979 --> 01:51:28.159 of a sudden I would always be looking over, I 01:51:28.159 --> 01:51:31.520 think over a cliff or over a ditch and I would 01:51:31.520 --> 01:51:35.159 see that hand in the weeds. And so I don't know 01:51:35.159 --> 01:51:38.029 if I'm. I don't think I'm insensitive, but I 01:51:38.029 --> 01:51:43.090 must have some baseline that I can go to that 01:51:43.090 --> 01:51:46.010 place. And I definitely feel emotional about 01:51:46.010 --> 01:51:49.550 it. If you heard the raw takes of me reading 01:51:49.550 --> 01:51:52.909 Population 45 or in Coop, there's some deeply 01:51:52.909 --> 01:51:56.310 personal things. You will hear my voice catch 01:51:56.310 --> 01:51:59.189 or have to start over. So it's absolutely not 01:51:59.189 --> 01:52:03.590 about being unfeeling. But it doesn't so much 01:52:03.590 --> 01:52:08.020 haunt me as just... It just enriches the depth 01:52:08.020 --> 01:52:10.180 of life and getting back to that, talking about 01:52:10.180 --> 01:52:12.399 not taking a single breath for granted that, 01:52:12.399 --> 01:52:16.460 you know, I can be having a bad day. I wrote 01:52:16.460 --> 01:52:19.560 an essay one time just called Gratitude. And 01:52:19.560 --> 01:52:22.199 I wrote that essay because I was really unhappy 01:52:22.199 --> 01:52:24.920 that day. And yet I looked around me and I said, 01:52:24.939 --> 01:52:29.020 I'm healthy. I have a lovely family. I'm making 01:52:29.020 --> 01:52:32.020 a living as a writer. And how can I possibly 01:52:32.020 --> 01:52:36.229 be unhappy? But I've learned that. You can exercise 01:52:36.229 --> 01:52:40.210 gratitude even when you're not happy. And I think 01:52:40.210 --> 01:52:42.609 the corollary to what we're talking about is 01:52:42.609 --> 01:52:46.189 you can revisit difficult things and you can 01:52:46.189 --> 01:52:50.390 be saddened, but handled correctly, that only 01:52:50.390 --> 01:52:53.510 honors the memory, honors the person, and also 01:52:53.510 --> 01:52:56.449 deepens your own humble appreciation for what 01:52:56.449 --> 01:53:01.569 you're given. One of the things that I've observed 01:53:01.569 --> 01:53:05.710 in myself, I never was suicidal. I never drowned 01:53:05.710 --> 01:53:09.630 in alcoholism. And yet never once did I think, 01:53:09.729 --> 01:53:12.470 oh, that's because I'm a stronger man than these 01:53:12.470 --> 01:53:14.989 people that do. Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. 01:53:15.569 --> 01:53:18.229 All it means is for all the adversity that I 01:53:18.229 --> 01:53:20.010 had, and there was a lot when I was young. When 01:53:20.010 --> 01:53:21.670 I was four, I was trapped in a house fire, almost 01:53:21.670 --> 01:53:24.350 died. My eight -year -old sister got us out literally 01:53:24.350 --> 01:53:26.369 just in time. I can remember us all being black. 01:53:27.189 --> 01:53:30.210 Another near -death experience. Parents' horrendous 01:53:30.210 --> 01:53:34.239 divorce. I mean, lots of things. I grew up on 01:53:34.239 --> 01:53:36.460 a farm. My dad was a veterinary surgeon. So we 01:53:36.460 --> 01:53:38.680 were healing animals. We had fresh air. We had 01:53:38.680 --> 01:53:40.899 discomfort. We had bailing and sheeps and all 01:53:40.899 --> 01:53:44.079 the things. And so when I look back, that is 01:53:44.079 --> 01:53:47.039 kind of my takeaway is why was I able to absorb 01:53:47.039 --> 01:53:50.420 things in a different way than some of my peers 01:53:50.420 --> 01:53:53.000 who ultimately struggled? And I think it's because 01:53:53.000 --> 01:53:56.439 by pure chance, the equal and opposite healing 01:53:56.439 --> 01:53:59.560 modalities were woven in. to my upbringing that 01:53:59.560 --> 01:54:02.939 some of my friends, guests just didn't have. 01:54:03.000 --> 01:54:05.079 It was trauma upon trauma for them early on. 01:54:05.600 --> 01:54:08.699 When you reflect back now with exactly what we've 01:54:08.699 --> 01:54:12.319 talked about, why are you able to compartmentalize 01:54:12.319 --> 01:54:15.000 or absorb in a different way than some of the 01:54:15.000 --> 01:54:19.399 people that we know? Were there equal and opposite 01:54:19.399 --> 01:54:22.359 elements of your upbringing in rural Wisconsin 01:54:22.359 --> 01:54:25.819 you think that served you later on? Yeah, and 01:54:25.819 --> 01:54:27.699 I think you just explained one of them to me. 01:54:27.720 --> 01:54:29.720 I never thought of it in this way. That term 01:54:29.720 --> 01:54:33.539 absorbed, which is different than deflect, which 01:54:33.539 --> 01:54:38.659 is different than stab. I think I can absorb 01:54:38.659 --> 01:54:42.520 things. But the part about growing up in rural 01:54:42.520 --> 01:54:44.560 Wisconsin has less to do with that place than 01:54:44.560 --> 01:54:47.579 it does early on when I was explaining my family 01:54:47.579 --> 01:54:50.350 background. I had a sister who

died when she 01:54:50.350 --> 01:54:52.270 was six, and we knew from pretty much the time 01:54:52.270 --> 01:54:54.470 she came to our house as an infant that she was 01:54:54.470 --> 01:54:58.750 going to die young. I had another sibling that 01:54:58.750 --> 01:55:02.529 died when he was 11, same sort of arc. And so 01:55:02.529 --> 01:55:06.289 there was, I think, an ability to understand 01:55:06.289 --> 01:55:10.210 that these bad things could happen. And yet you 01:55:10.210 --> 01:55:12.710 could take joy from that life. You could be present. 01:55:13.329 --> 01:55:17.350 And also, and I say this in the gentlest way. 01:55:18.159 --> 01:55:22.939 Not callous. That life also would go on. And 01:55:22.939 --> 01:55:27.340 so you can honor that person. You can grieve, 01:55:27.340 --> 01:55:31.020 certainly. I got a brother who's just rough as 01:55:31.020 --> 01:55:34.960 a cob, as we say. I know cob means something 01:55:34.960 --> 01:55:39.220 different in Britain, but does it mean biscuit 01:55:39.220 --> 01:55:42.439 or bread? It's a loaf of bread, yeah. But also 01:55:42.439 --> 01:55:44.859 corn on the cob, so I can see the reference. 01:55:45.079 --> 01:55:48.409 Rough as a cob. But we were just talking the 01:55:48.409 --> 01:55:51.770 other day about our little sister that she died 01:55:51.770 --> 01:55:54.029 when she was six. I was 16. He would have been 01:55:54.029 --> 01:55:58.989 14. I'm now 61. He's 57 or eight. And we were 01:55:58.989 --> 01:56:01.390 talking about the joy of having her in our life 01:56:01.390 --> 01:56:03.850 and how we still remember her like it was yesterday. 01:56:04.010 --> 01:56:07.329 And that also we are not every time we think 01:56:07.329 --> 01:56:09.029 of her, we think of joyful things. We're not 01:56:09.029 --> 01:56:11.430 swept with grief. And yet there are still moments 01:56:11.430 --> 01:56:14.770 where you miss her terribly or you do feel that 01:56:14.770 --> 01:56:18.859 little punch or stab. And so I think those experiences, 01:56:19.039 --> 01:56:22.079 absolutely. I mean, to grow up in a house where 01:56:22.079 --> 01:56:27.420 death was part of natural reality, I don't think, 01:56:27.420 --> 01:56:30.279 you know, there's no substitute for that. And 01:56:30.279 --> 01:56:33.180 watching my parents deal, you know, watching 01:56:33.180 --> 01:56:37.760 your parents grieve for a child and yet carry 01:56:37.760 --> 01:56:42.039 on and grieve in a meaningful and deep way and 01:56:42.039 --> 01:56:44.840 yet not be incapacitated. That was another very 01:56:44.840 --> 01:56:47.500 big lesson, I think. And, you know, you spoke 01:56:47.500 --> 01:56:50.800 about your rural upbringing. I'm not canonizing 01:56:50.800 --> 01:56:53.600 the rural life. It's got all the negatives that 01:56:53.600 --> 01:56:55.819 the city life has just in reverse sometimes. 01:56:57.239 --> 01:56:59.520 But I remember my dad just, he had to milk cows 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:01.899 twice a day. It didn't matter what. happened. 01:57:02.020 --> 01:57:04.039 Literally didn't matter what happened. Even the 01:57:04.039 --> 01:57:05.800 worst things you can imagine, you've got to milk 01:57:05.800 --> 01:57:08.819 the cows twice a day. And indeed, when my sister 01:57:08.819 --> 01:57:10.819 was dying, he had to sell the cows in order to 01:57:10.819 --> 01:57:13.560 care for her. And so you're just given a sense 01:57:13.560 --> 01:57:16.500 of scale and depth. And then finally, I think 01:57:16.500 --> 01:57:19.939 you really hit on the word today. You absorbed 01:57:19.939 --> 01:57:23.600 it. And by definition, to absorb it is to make 01:57:23.600 --> 01:57:28.359 it part of you, but not in a tumorous sense, 01:57:28.539 --> 01:57:33.920 but more in a diffuse. A diffuse sense. Absolutely. 01:57:34.840 --> 01:57:37.140 I'm glad I asked. It's funny because I didn't 01:57:37.140 --> 01:57:40.800 have any loss of siblings, but there was so much 01:57:40.800 --> 01:57:44.500 death. My dad was a veterinary surgeon, so they 01:57:44.500 --> 01:57:46.220 died on the operating table in front of us when 01:57:46.220 --> 01:57:48.560 I was helping him and the circle of life of all 01:57:48.560 --> 01:57:50.420 the animals that we had. So I wonder if that 01:57:50.420 --> 01:57:52.359 was another layer to it, even though it wasn't 01:57:52.359 --> 01:57:56.340 as acute as having a sibling pass away. And to 01:57:56.340 --> 01:57:59.039 be on a lighter note, and I'm just assuming things 01:57:59.039 --> 01:58:02.239 were the same in Britain as they were in rural 01:58:02.239 --> 01:58:05.180 Wisconsin. Nobody ever calls the vet until they've 01:58:05.180 --> 01:58:07.800 tried three things of their own and they're halfway 01:58:07.800 --> 01:58:10.140 out the door. And then you call the vet. So you've 01:58:10.140 --> 01:58:13.539 got someone to blame. Yeah. And they're expensive 01:58:13.539 --> 01:58:17.279 too. So you try and put it off. All right. Well 01:58:17.279 --> 01:58:20.340 then just to close out before we go to the closing 01:58:20.340 --> 01:58:23.399 questions, your latest book is improbable mentors. 01:58:23.579 --> 01:58:26.600 Now I know this includes the fire service, but 01:58:26.600 --> 01:58:28.500 you've got a very wide lens on this. So talk 01:58:28.500 --> 01:58:32.380 to me about that. I went fishing with a guy out 01:58:32.380 --> 01:58:35.300 in, in the ocean. I'd never been ocean, ocean 01:58:35.300 --> 01:58:37.399 fishing in all my life. I grew up hunting and 01:58:37.399 --> 01:58:41.000 fishing still do, but I'd never caught a saltwater 01:58:41.000 --> 01:58:43.220 fish. And I had developed a friendship with this. 01:58:44.040 --> 01:58:46.979 Guy, he has sold millions of books and is also 01:58:46.979 --> 01:58:51.619 a tremendous speaker. And he lives down in Alabama. 01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:55.000 And so I had to go down there to do some shows. 01:58:55.100 --> 01:58:58.640 And he said, well, come on by and stay at

our 01:58:58.640 --> 01:59:01.039 place. And I said, there's just one thing I want 01:59:01.039 --> 01:59:02.819 to do, and that's catch a fish in the ocean. 01:59:03.020 --> 01:59:05.760 And he said, we'll take care of it. So as I said, 01:59:05.840 --> 01:59:07.340 he sold a few more books than I have. So he has 01:59:07.340 --> 01:59:10.720 a nice boat. And so we took the boat 12 miles 01:59:10.720 --> 01:59:15.520 out into the ocean. and got all set up. I mean, 01:59:15.520 --> 01:59:17.180 they treated me like a complete tourist, which 01:59:17.180 --> 01:59:19.659 was lovely. They got me all set up. I cast my 01:59:19.659 --> 01:59:23.239 line. I caught a red snapper, I believe it was, 01:59:23.319 --> 01:59:25.039 and I boated it. They got a picture of it. And 01:59:25.039 --> 01:59:29.159 as I'm boating it, this craft had two gigantic 01:59:29.159 --> 01:59:31.539 twin engines on it, and one of the engines conked 01:59:31.539 --> 01:59:34.460 out. And they said, well, unfortunately, you 01:59:34.460 --> 01:59:38.100 can't just run one big engine full out without 01:59:38.100 --> 01:59:39.720 the other one because they balance each other, 01:59:39.779 --> 01:59:41.220 and there's something about the torque, and it'll 01:59:41.220 --> 01:59:44.039 crack the boat or whatever. And so they said, 01:59:44.079 --> 01:59:47.079 we're now going to idle back 12 miles back to 01:59:47.079 --> 01:59:51.279 shore through the waves. So it took us four hours 01:59:51.279 --> 01:59:55.239 to get back to shore. The good news is I'm sitting 01:59:55.239 --> 01:59:57.800 with this guy and we get along great. And we 01:59:57.800 --> 02:00:00.060 just talked for four hours and we talked about 02:00:00.060 --> 02:00:02.479 how we wound up where we are. He used to be homeless 02:00:02.479 --> 02:00:06.680 under a bridge. He was a comedian and he just 02:00:06.680 --> 02:00:09.340 found his way into this writing, speaking, advising 02:00:09.340 --> 02:00:13.729 world. at the end of the conversation, he said, 02:00:13.770 --> 02:00:15.489 you know, you should put this together as a little 02:00:15.489 --> 02:00:20.569 talk and about the mentors that we met during 02:00:20.569 --> 02:00:22.609 our lives that we didn't realize were mentoring 02:00:22.609 --> 02:00:26.109 us. And so I thought, yeah, maybe. And then I 02:00:26.109 --> 02:00:28.050 had a three hour flight home and I got on a plane 02:00:28.050 --> 02:00:29.670 and I thought, you know what I should. So I just 02:00:29.670 --> 02:00:31.510 made every note I could think of. And then over 02:00:31.510 --> 02:00:32.989 the next few months, I worked up this little 02:00:32.989 --> 02:00:35.489 book and it really is a little book. It's, it's 02:00:35.489 --> 02:00:39.890 a tiny little thing, but it's just about the 02:00:39.890 --> 02:00:43.319 people we meet. who are mentoring us and we don't 02:00:43.319 --> 02:00:45.960 realize it. And so I write in here, I write about 02:00:45.960 --> 02:00:49.579 truckers. I was raised by a lot of truckers. 02:00:49.600 --> 02:00:51.859 My uncle was a trucker. And when I got done with 02:00:51.859 --> 02:00:53.779 college, I went trucking with him before I even 02:00:53.779 --> 02:00:57.000 got a job. And I just learned little things from 02:00:57.000 --> 02:01:00.600 him, like the smallest thing, very specific thing 02:01:00.600 --> 02:01:04.960 is he taught me that if you're driving down the 02:01:04.960 --> 02:01:07.039 road in a semi and you see a black spot in the 02:01:07.039 --> 02:01:09.659 road ahead, you know that about 10 or 12 feet 02:01:09.659 --> 02:01:12.420 ahead of that is a bump. because whatever oil 02:01:12.420 --> 02:01:14.920 drip is ready to fall off your vehicle, when 02:01:14.920 --> 02:01:18.439 you hit that bump, it breaks loose. And so there's 02:01:18.439 --> 02:01:21.680 a lovely metaphorical lesson there. But then 02:01:21.680 --> 02:01:23.520 I also said, when you're out on book tour and 02:01:23.520 --> 02:01:26.180 you're holding your hot coffee and you're driving 02:01:26.180 --> 02:01:28.619 along and you see a black spot on the road ahead, 02:01:28.699 --> 02:01:30.960 well, then maybe set the coffee down or hold 02:01:30.960 --> 02:01:32.819 it up so it doesn't splash when you hit that 02:01:32.819 --> 02:01:36.659 bump. But then I talk about nurses. I went to 02:01:36.659 --> 02:01:38.699 a four -year nursing program. I have a bachelor's 02:01:38.699 --> 02:01:40.800 degree in nursing. I worked as a nurse officially 02:01:40.800 --> 02:01:42.840 for less than two years. And I've had people 02:01:42.840 --> 02:01:45.420 say, do you feel like you wasted those four years? 02:01:46.420 --> 02:01:48.880 Absolutely not, because I went to a nursing program 02:01:48.880 --> 02:01:51.760 that taught me holistic nursing, where you're 02:01:51.760 --> 02:01:54.840 in the room to assess a person. They have abdominal 02:01:54.840 --> 02:01:58.140 pain. Of course, you're going to take their blood 02:01:58.140 --> 02:02:00.140 pressure, get their vital signs, their health 02:02:00.140 --> 02:02:03.260 history. Of course, you're going to eventually 02:02:03.260 --> 02:02:06.260 palpate that abdominal pain, but you're also 02:02:06.260 --> 02:02:08.560 going to gather information about their socioeconomic 02:02:08.560 --> 02:02:11.180 status, their psychological state. Are there 02:02:11.180 --> 02:02:12.920 other things that are playing into this? Because 02:02:12.920 --> 02:02:16.060 they are a holistic being. Sounds hippie. It's 02:02:16.060 --> 02:02:19.699 not. We all are holistic beings. And so then 02:02:19.699 --> 02:02:22.020 I tell people, when I was trained as a nurse, 02:02:22.159 --> 02:02:26.069 I was trained in human assessment. And what is 02:02:26.069 --> 02:02:29.289 writing but human assessment? When I get assigned 02:02:29.289 --> 02:02:33.289 a story or I sign a book deal, I know that I'm 02:02:33.289 --> 02:02:36.529 going to write about X, but I'm first going

to 02:02:36.529 --> 02:02:38.590 look at everything surrounding X and draw threads 02:02:38.590 --> 02:02:41.909 and connections and continuities and then work 02:02:41.909 --> 02:02:44.529 from that. So there's an example where nursing 02:02:44.529 --> 02:02:46.489 helped me. The other, again, to get back to a 02:02:46.489 --> 02:02:50.489 more practical and silly example, I'm very, very 02:02:50.489 --> 02:02:52.970 shy. I don't like coming out of this little room. 02:02:53.819 --> 02:02:56.239 I especially hate cold calling people. And back 02:02:56.239 --> 02:02:58.199 when I did a lot of magazine writing, I'd have 02:02:58.199 --> 02:03:00.619 to meet people all the time that maybe didn't 02:03:00.619 --> 02:03:02.680 want to talk to me, or they've been told they 02:03:02.680 --> 02:03:05.159 had to talk to me, or had to call them on the 02:03:05.159 --> 02:03:09.909 phone. So cold calling, and I hated it. And the 02:03:09.909 --> 02:03:11.689 only way I would get through it is I would just 02:03:11.689 --> 02:03:14.170 remember, wait, I'm a nurse. I've been trained 02:03:14.170 --> 02:03:16.149 to go into a tiny little room with a complete 02:03:16.149 --> 02:03:18.789 stranger, ask them all kinds of personal questions, 02:03:19.050 --> 02:03:20.890 have them take their clothes off, and within 02:03:20.890 --> 02:03:23.550 five minutes inquire as to their bowel habits. 02:03:24.390 --> 02:03:28.829 If I can do that, surely I can ask this trucker 02:03:28.829 --> 02:03:32.960 about his engine, right? The book Improbable 02:03:32.960 --> 02:03:36.140 Mentors, it's just a blend of kind of metaphorical 02:03:36.140 --> 02:03:40.060 lessons, but also very specific lessons. And 02:03:40.060 --> 02:03:42.039 the point of the book is that you can't necessarily 02:03:42.039 --> 02:03:44.439 say, like, I want to be a writer, so I should 02:03:44.439 --> 02:03:48.560 go seek out the mentorship of a writer. Occasionally 02:03:48.560 --> 02:03:50.340 that works, but mostly it doesn't. And so the 02:03:50.340 --> 02:03:52.199 whole point of this book is, no, you have no 02:03:52.199 --> 02:03:55.079 idea who's mentoring you for your future. In 02:03:55.079 --> 02:03:59.319 my case, it was not necessarily. an author it 02:03:59.319 --> 02:04:02.800 was nurses and truckers and loggers and then 02:04:02.800 --> 02:04:05.199 i do have two chapters one about firefighting 02:04:05.199 --> 02:04:09.039 and one about ems and the lessons that that i've 02:04:09.039 --> 02:04:11.279 learned from fire and ems that have helped me 02:04:11.279 --> 02:04:14.739 as a writer and as a self -employed i almost 02:04:14.739 --> 02:04:20.899 said creator whoops so it's these disparate mentors 02:04:20.899 --> 02:04:24.079 that are all around us if we're if we're paying 02:04:24.079 --> 02:04:28.340 attention and ready to absorb This ties again 02:04:28.340 --> 02:04:29.979 with some of the philosophical conversations 02:04:29.979 --> 02:04:33.619 we have about coming together again. I love that 02:04:33.619 --> 02:04:35.659 quote, if you want to change the world, start 02:04:35.659 --> 02:04:38.279 at home. And I couldn't agree more. But then 02:04:38.279 --> 02:04:40.539 when you feel like you've somewhat got a handle 02:04:40.539 --> 02:04:44.039 of your four walls, step outside your front door 02:04:44.039 --> 02:04:46.640 and become a mentor. And it could be, as you 02:04:46.640 --> 02:04:49.840 said, a teacher. It could be just a kind, compassionate 02:04:49.840 --> 02:04:52.500 person in uniform that's volunteering. It could 02:04:52.500 --> 02:04:54.979 be a coach. It could be so many different things. 02:04:55.159 --> 02:04:57.520 It could be someone who's simply, you know gives 02:04:57.520 --> 02:04:59.539 someone who's living under a bridge some money 02:04:59.539 --> 02:05:01.619 but actually takes time to talk to them not just 02:05:01.619 --> 02:05:04.880 flings a few coins in their face so the power 02:05:04.880 --> 02:05:07.819 of mentorship and this is what i've seen so many 02:05:07.819 --> 02:05:11.460 of us that have had these traumatic early lives 02:05:11.460 --> 02:05:14.520 are on a parallel path with people that make 02:05:14.520 --> 02:05:16.420 a lot of mistakes and end up dead or in prison 02:05:16.909 --> 02:05:19.270 The difference is the kind of mentors that were 02:05:19.270 --> 02:05:21.710 in their life. If it was a positive one, now 02:05:21.710 --> 02:05:24.050 you joined the military or you became a physician 02:05:24.050 --> 02:05:26.590 or whatever. If it was a negative one, maybe 02:05:26.590 --> 02:05:28.670 you joined the Crips or you ended up living under 02:05:28.670 --> 02:05:31.270 a bridge. But you're still the same child up 02:05:31.270 --> 02:05:34.130 to that point. So basically the thing that we 02:05:34.130 --> 02:05:36.569 can control is the community, that village as 02:05:36.569 --> 02:05:40.130 we talked about before. And you never know the 02:05:40.130 --> 02:05:42.289 impact that you will have on a child or a young 02:05:42.289 --> 02:05:45.659 person or maybe an older person. simply engaging 02:05:45.659 --> 02:05:49.100 them, being kind, and maybe offering lessons 02:05:49.100 --> 02:05:51.640 from your life or support from your life to help 02:05:51.640 --> 02:05:55.140 them make that turn. Yeah. And if you can draw 02:05:55.140 --> 02:05:57.500 those lessons naturally, I mean, and mentorship, 02:05:57.619 --> 02:05:59.699 again, it sounds so formal. It's not. One of 02:05:59.699 --> 02:06:02.239 the things you just reminded me of was, and I 02:06:02.239 --> 02:06:04.279 wrote about this recently, but I think, oh, it 02:06:04.279 --> 02:06:06.460 was in an essay. I did an essay called Bailing 02:06:06.460 --> 02:06:09.739 in America. And it was based on me going to a 02:06:09.739 --> 02:06:13.090 meeting in LA. I was on the lot at Universal 02:06:13.090 --> 02:06:15.989 Studios pitching a show unsuccessfully, I might 02:06:15.989 --> 02:06:19.609

add. And then within 24 hours, I was on the back 02:06:19.609 --> 02:06:22.760 40 of our farm, the farm I grew up on. stacking 02:06:22.760 --> 02:06:25.180 straw bales behind the baler and my dad was driving 02:06:25.180 --> 02:06:27.520 the baler. And I was just thinking about how 02:06:27.520 --> 02:06:29.560 invigorating both of those days were. I loved 02:06:29.560 --> 02:06:31.960 being on the Universal Lots failing to sell a 02:06:31.960 --> 02:06:34.079 TV show. What the heck? How did I go from cleaning 02:06:34.079 --> 02:06:37.439 calf pens in Chippewa County, Wisconsin to swiping 02:06:37.439 --> 02:06:40.119 my pass and going to talk to people who produce 02:06:40.119 --> 02:06:42.939 things that we all see every day? And then on 02:06:42.939 --> 02:06:45.439 the other hand, how happy was I the next day 02:06:45.439 --> 02:06:48.359 to be stacking hay bales on the back 40? But 02:06:48.359 --> 02:06:50.180 what I wrote about in there, and this is where 02:06:50.180 --> 02:06:53.880 I hope the mentorship part comes in. I also, 02:06:53.979 --> 02:06:56.560 a lot of my buddies, I go to New York too quite 02:06:56.560 --> 02:07:00.260 often for business meetings and work meetings. 02:07:00.539 --> 02:07:03.680 And I have my buddies in the fire department. 02:07:03.800 --> 02:07:05.760 They're driving these big four -wheel drive trucks 02:07:05.760 --> 02:07:10.079 and they got all kinds of hardcore tattoos and 02:07:10.079 --> 02:07:12.340 they're good old boys and they're all packing. 02:07:12.979 --> 02:07:16.119 And then they'll be like, you're going to New 02:07:16.119 --> 02:07:18.640 York? Yeah, you're not going to ride the subway, 02:07:18.760 --> 02:07:21.640 are you? Well, yeah, at every opportunity. Or 02:07:21.640 --> 02:07:23.600 you're going to L .A.? That's like a hellhole 02:07:23.600 --> 02:07:25.819 out there. And I said, yeah, there's parts of 02:07:25.819 --> 02:07:27.779 L .A. where I hope the Waymo doesn't break down, 02:07:27.899 --> 02:07:30.039 but what am I going to sacrifice the fascination 02:07:30.039 --> 02:07:32.859 of that trip? And then I also talked to them 02:07:32.859 --> 02:07:36.020 about the – I have a whole – I can do 45 minutes 02:07:36.020 --> 02:07:38.500 and sometimes do on stage making fun of the people 02:07:38.500 --> 02:07:40.619 I work with in New York. for the things that 02:07:40.619 --> 02:07:42.600 they assume and they're wrong about. Those people 02:07:42.600 --> 02:07:44.420 also, I then spend time talking about how they've 02:07:44.420 --> 02:07:46.359 changed my life and they're really good at what 02:07:46.359 --> 02:07:48.199 they do and they're funny and they're thoughtful 02:07:48.199 --> 02:07:52.119 and they're caring. And I am tying this back 02:07:52.119 --> 02:07:55.260 to mentorship that I'm hoping, and again, I'm 02:07:55.260 --> 02:07:57.539 not appointing myself as a mentor, but what I'm 02:07:57.539 --> 02:07:59.880 hoping what I'm doing with my buddies is by joking 02:07:59.880 --> 02:08:01.600 with them and saying, look, dude, you got the 02:08:01.600 --> 02:08:05.659 jacked up coal roller here and you got your 38 02:08:05.659 --> 02:08:08.750 tucked under your armpit. And you're worried 02:08:08.750 --> 02:08:11.949 about the writer going to New York with his soft 02:08:11.949 --> 02:08:14.909 hands? I mean, my 17 -year -old daughter takes 02:08:14.909 --> 02:08:18.149 the Amtrak to Chicago, and people are horrified 02:08:18.149 --> 02:08:20.489 about it. No, the train is quite relatively safe. 02:08:20.609 --> 02:08:22.449 She's met at the station by someone who lives 02:08:22.449 --> 02:08:25.109 in Chicago and knows Chicago. She's not just 02:08:25.109 --> 02:08:28.970 bailing out onto the streets. And the idea is 02:08:28.970 --> 02:08:31.130 I'm hoping that by kind of being lighthearted 02:08:31.130 --> 02:08:33.409 about it, and I can get away with teasing because 02:08:33.409 --> 02:08:36.529 they know that I'm actually one of them at base. 02:08:37.550 --> 02:08:40.010 You're just hoping that the mentorship you're 02:08:40.010 --> 02:08:42.850 providing there is like, you know what? You might 02:08:42.850 --> 02:08:47.729 actually like LA. Anyway, I'm so off track with 02:08:47.729 --> 02:08:51.229 what you were saying. But the subtitle of the 02:08:51.229 --> 02:08:53.289 book, or the title of the book is Improbable 02:08:53.289 --> 02:08:57.850 Mentors and Happy Tangents. So you've had ample 02:08:57.850 --> 02:09:00.630 evidence of that today. Well, this is what I 02:09:00.630 --> 02:09:02.449 love about the show, though, truly. Like when 02:09:02.449 --> 02:09:04.329 people say, and you've had the same thing, people 02:09:04.329 --> 02:09:06.569 say, well, you're going to send questions. I'm 02:09:06.569 --> 02:09:09.069 like, no. You're the expert of your life. I'm 02:09:09.069 --> 02:09:10.229 going to start at the beginning. We're going 02:09:10.229 --> 02:09:12.310 to walk through and then all these organic tangents 02:09:12.310 --> 02:09:15.289 will just happen. So this is the very being of 02:09:15.289 --> 02:09:18.050 this show. I love tangents. Yeah. That being 02:09:18.050 --> 02:09:19.810 said, I want to be mindful of your time. I know 02:09:19.810 --> 02:09:22.250 we've gone over two hours now. So for people 02:09:22.250 --> 02:09:25.329 listening, where can they find Population 485 02:09:25.329 --> 02:09:28.529 and all the other books that you've gone? The 02:09:28.529 --> 02:09:31.569 best place to go is I have a website, sneezingcow 02:09:31.569 --> 02:09:38.489 .com. And there's nice thunder now. SneezingCow 02:09:38.489 --> 02:09:40.750 .com comes from a humor album I did years ago 02:09:40.750 --> 02:09:44.310 called Never Stand Behind a Sneezing Cow. And 02:09:44.310 --> 02:09:46.670 if you grew up like I did on a farm, a dairy 02:09:46.670 --> 02:09:48.850 farm, particularly when you turn the cows out 02:09:48.850 --> 02:09:52.350 in spring. And honestly, I don't know if your 02:09:52.350 --> 02:09:54.449 father worked in large animal practice or not. 02:09:54.609 --> 02:09:58.789 But let's just say if you don't know what I'm 02:09:58.789 --> 02:10:02.520 getting at, when a cow sneezes. It projectile 02:10:02.520 --> 02:10:05.640 something out of the back end of it, and it isn't 02:10:05.640 --> 02:10:10.699 milk. It's chocolate milk. And it will achieve 02:10:10.699 --> 02:10:14.479 an astounding ballistic arc. And if you've ever 02:10:14.479 --> 02:10:16.899 been hit in the face by that, and I have grown 02:10:16.899 --> 02:10:18.460 up on the farm, you know that you should never 02:10:18.460 --> 02:10:22.100 stand behind a sneezing cow. So sneezingcow .com. 02:10:22.159 --> 02:10:25.079 If you just go there, there's a mailing list. 02:10:25.140 --> 02:10:27.600 Sign up, and then you can scroll down. There's 02:10:27.600 --> 02:10:29.960 a little blog post about it. That tells you where 02:10:29.960 --> 02:10:33.739 the web story is and my live events and my podcast, 02:10:33.960 --> 02:10:37.140 Substack Podcast. And yeah, sneezingcow .com, 02:10:37.220 --> 02:10:40.479 that's the place to start. Brilliant. My dad 02:10:40.479 --> 02:10:42.640 actually told me he was a horse vet, so a lot 02:10:42.640 --> 02:10:45.300 of large animals. And he said one time he was 02:10:45.300 --> 02:10:47.579 on a farm and it was a cow that they were looking 02:10:47.579 --> 02:10:50.420 at at that time. And he was looking at the cow 02:10:50.420 --> 02:10:52.560 and the guy was behind the cow, lit a cigarette 02:10:52.560 --> 02:10:54.500 right when the cow farted. It almost blew his 02:10:54.500 --> 02:10:58.210 face off. So that's another thing. Yes, they 02:10:58.210 --> 02:11:03.649 also do that. All right. Well, I want to thank 02:11:03.649 --> 02:11:06.930 you so much. I mean, you know, from the courageous 02:11:06.930 --> 02:11:09.329 vulnerability of revisiting some of these darker 02:11:09.329 --> 02:11:11.789 areas that we've talked about to, I mean, you 02:11:11.789 --> 02:11:13.470 know, just the conversation on storytelling. 02:11:13.569 --> 02:11:16.229 I think that's so needed. We touched on social 02:11:16.229 --> 02:11:19.319 media and I think. The dark side of social media 02:11:19.319 --> 02:11:23.239 is distilling stories down to nothing, you know, 02:11:23.239 --> 02:11:25.359 and losing that story. Same with what people 02:11:25.359 --> 02:11:27.600 call news these days. There's no story there 02:11:27.600 --> 02:11:30.979 whatsoever. So it's been such an amazing conversation. 02:11:31.420 --> 02:11:33.760 Thank you so much for being so generous with 02:11:33.760 --> 02:11:35.600 your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 02:11:35.600 --> 02:11:39.359 podcast today. Thanks for having me. I am grateful 02:11:39.359 --> 02:11:41.840 to have had this life and grateful to have the 02:11:41.840 --> 02:11:43.479 opportunity to shoot the breeze about it.