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Intro
Welcome to Behaviorally Speaking: Leadership for Change-Makers—where leadership is grounded in behavior, guided by dignity, and designed for change. I'm your host, Dr. Esther Bubb. Let's dive into today's episode.
Interview
WEBVTT
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Good morning, Donna. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining. I'm very, very excited to have you on today, and I'm looking forward to our chat, and I'm also looking forward to all that I'm going to learn from you. So, how are you doing today?
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Donna: Good morning, Esther. Thank you so much for having me on the program. It's such a pleasure to be here. I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with you, and good to see you after, you know, some time, so thanks again for having me on.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, you're very welcome. So let's start off with like our roots and identity. We know we're both Grenadian. We were born in Grenada, grew up in Grenada, went to school together. So let's chat about that for a bit. So what lessons from growing up in Grenada, Donna, still shape.
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Donna: Okay, that is really a great question. And there are so many of them. So let's see how I can summarize this.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes. Right.
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Donna: I think growing up in Grenada taught me that, you know, community is not a luxury, right? It's not something that we should take for granted. It's really infrastructure, right? And that is necessary. On a small island, you quickly learn that no one succeeds in isolation, right? Like no man is an island is a saying.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Well.
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Donna: Whether it was neighbors sharing whatever it is they had, like anything that they harvested, or, you know, villagers rallying around a family that's in crisis, where there's an emergency, we need help.
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Donna: our teachers even going the extra mile when we were in school, right? Giving late classes and trying to get you to, you know, the end when we had, like, you know, SBAs or assignments that we need to do. They really stuck with us throughout it, right?
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Donna: And, you know, every day, we see that, you know, that kind of… those kinds of qualities are essential and fundamental for leadership. So, it's all about service to others, right? And I think that's what we've seen as we grew up, even when we went to school together.
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Donna: And, you know, there's other examples, not just from back home, but even at work too, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: with certain projects that we have. There are people that we need to lean into. There are people who always jump in to help and say, okay, I know this so I can help you with it. So I think, and that, you know, having it from home, I kind of know that I naturally need to extend that in my job here as well. So I think that's how I would summarize that aspect of it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, I definitely agree with that, especially when you talk about like the communal part, like everybody coming together. I think that's definitely one thing I took away from being born in Grenada and growing up there that you say we, we come to value more when we're not there, right? Yeah.
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Donna: Yeah, it's necessary.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And then…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: sticking, you know, with the theme of Grenada and your early leadership influences, who would you say modeled leadership for you? Perhaps, you know, Donna, growing up, for me, I never thought of it that way, like, as in terms of leadership, but thinking back now, who would you say modeled for you early in life, and what did they teach you?
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Donna: I think for me it started at home.
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Donna: So my grandmother, grandfather, and both of them, and they both had kind of distinct roles within the household, but they still were able to get this harmony from a leadership, you know, perspective. So there were things that my grandfather, who I refer to as daddy, took care of.
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Donna: my grandmother, who I call her mommy, there are things that she led with. And, you know, beyond just at home, where they led, you know, different things.
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Donna: They actually played a key role in the community, right? So, as you know, my granddad, like, he had a business office on here.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: Up in the air.
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Donna: And he did really well in that aspect. And then my grandmother.
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Donna: she was very involved in, like, the church and other things in the community. She loved the choir, you know, and all of those things are… they're not things that are trivial. It's also very important, so I think I had that foundation from home, where they had the leadership role being exhibited at home, but also in what they did for the community.
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Donna: And then outside of home, I would have to say it would be the institutions, like the schools that we went to, the St. Joseph convent, nuns, like they were very instrumental in our upbringing via the institution. I mean, some of it was not easy.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Some people just can't do it.
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Donna: But I think it's important to understand what it is they were trying to do, right? They were nurturing us to also be good leaders. And
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then there's other people in the community that, you know, we looked up to, even, like, you know, the parents of our friends. Like, I think everybody played a different role, so it's a combination again.
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Donna: is that community, but I think for me, I really had a good foundation at home, and I think that is, you know, that must be mentioned, and a lot of credit goes to my grandmother and my grandfather, and then it extends to the rest of my family as well.
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Donna: So yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, definitely the, the, the role of the family, the community, the, the church, the teachers, and I, I'm thinking of teacher Dominic, you know?
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Donna: Yes.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: We're having this conversation, you know?
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Donna: Absolutely.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: He was one of them as well. And I had a very good relationship with him. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he definitely says that to me. Thank you for sharing that. And then thinking of all of the things that you learned, so your grandparents, right, from teachers, from the church, things like that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: How have you stayed connected, Donna, to your Grenadian identity, right, while still building, you know, a global career in Canada?
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Donna: Yeah, so that's a really good question. So when you move through global institutions, there's a certain pressure to assimilate, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: To minimize your accent, to minimize your background, to adopt a culture that defaults to whatever room you are in, like here I'm in Canada, and you kind of have the pressure to kind of be like, you know, what?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: is example, right? So.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: I made a deliberate choice early not to do that. So I would always be myself, even the way I sound, the way I conduct myself. And I forever have this connection with Grenada, as you know. Yes.
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Donna: back home. And I still kind of see myself as passing through Canada. I still see Grenada as my home. So I think that has helped to ground me. So I would say physically, because I always go. And then also spiritually, I have this kind of soul connection with Grenada, right? I maintain relationship with people who are in Grenada, who I knew before I am what I am today of my accomplishments, like, you know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: like yourself or a core group of friends.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: And those are actually the people that I'm closest to, the true foundation that's kind of shaped me. So I think it's maintaining those relationships and then also true storytelling is what I would describe it as, right? So when I'm in professional spaces, I actually bring up Grenada in the conversation and I draw the contrast very often. So the whole of my institution knows where I'm from, basically.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: All right.
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Donna: They need to know that, you know, my values and also my.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, we.
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Donna: thinking on certain things, kind of, it's anchored in grade. Of course, we've learned a lot from experience along the way, but I do use that in storytelling as well, right? So, in my personal practices, the way I, you know, just interact with people on a whole, I maintain that within, like, who I am. I just really just.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: Be who, you know, I know myself to be growing up in Grenada. I don't lose sight of that. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Yeah. And I love your point about storytelling because I can tell you don't. I've gone to like trainings and the part that stay with me are the stories, right? You know, not necessarily all the theoretical stuff. So they'll remember that. And it really is a good way to, to hold true to who we are, to talk about it, to live it, to experience it. And then, like you said, going home often, that also helps as well. Yeah.
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Donna: Yeah, so…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So speaking of that, you know, you, you, you definitely.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Have been on a journey. You're still on a journey. You're going to continue to be on a journey as long as you walk this earth, right? So, and you talked about assimilation. So a lot of times in our lives we have to adapt, right? Whether it's our personal lives or professional. And you're leading in a very complex environment, right? So you're at the intersection of audit, of love, technology.
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Donna: Olog.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: How do you stay effective, Donna, in such a complex environment?
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Donna: Yeah, that is… that is so true. I think about it almost every day as I embark on projects or just interact with different people, so…
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Donna: I think I stay effective by being honest about what I do not know. That is important, right? Be very honest about what it is you do not know, things, you know, areas that are there for improvement. There's always opportunity.
You have to have an open mind. That is key, right?
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Donna: and building teams, you know, who collectively know more than I do. So it's like, you know.
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Donna: Some people figure, okay, I'm the leader, nobody should know more than I do. And that is not correct, right? That's the purpose of you building a team. People are there to support each other. And then together, the results should be even more tremendous than what you bring as an individual, right? So I try to kind of foster that with the teams that I lead. Because, you know, no single person can master, as you said, audit, law, technology, all of what I do.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: Very impossible. So you need the expertise from all these areas, right? And then you have to figure out, okay, how do I mesh all of these together? And then also being a problem solver is important, right? Finding a solution that works, thinking through the complexity of whatever it is, and that's your critical thinking.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Donna: Right? So you need to have the ability to see how all of these different disciplines connect, where the risk sits, where the boundaries between them, and where there are opportunities in bringing them together, right? And ask a lot of questions. That is really important.
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Donna: And then creating an environment where experts can speak freely across all of these disciplines, so you know what people are really thinking.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: And you understand and you learn new things as you go. And then also making sure that you don't get caught up with, like, you know, hierarchy and levels and that kind of stuff. It's open, free, and that's how we get the communication flowing. And at the end of the day, the end result is to benefit everyone, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So…
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Donna: So I also invest heavily in staying current. That is really important, especially with the technology aspect of it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: Because technology is just moving so quickly, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Donna: I have to make sure that I stay current, I read broadly, I read a lot, maintain relationship with practitioners across.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: of the two fields, and then I deliberately sometimes have to put myself in learning context, whether that is, you know, conferences, courses, you have to look for ways of self-improving.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: that education. So I'm constantly doing things to upgrade myself, but also just to gain the knowledge.
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Donna: And then I would be in a position to pass that on, and to encourage others, right? To encourage others to do the same within, you know, within reach, within, you know, people in my team, or people that I mentor. You just have to, you know, pass that message on to them, that you have to keep learning. It's important, because that's the only way you will…
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Donna: you know, have a wider perspective of, you know, the economy, the world, the field that you're in, and then that helps you within complex situations as well. So, it's an awareness of what you are capable of doing, the potential that you have, and then how do you foster that amongst the people that are looking up to you, so to speak. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, I love all of everything you said. I really like the part where you said, like, just being honest, right? Yeah, admitting when you don't know something, you know, I also.
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Donna: Perfect.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Love it to just saying, acknowledging when you make a mistake, but.
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Donna: And he.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: had me smiling because I'm here saying great minds think alike. I, I did, you know, I did a session with Mavis yesterday and she talked about continuing to learn just as you said.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right? Yeah. So, she talks about just continuing, you know, your education, regardless whether it's a conference or course. So, I think that really helps, Donna. And like you said, you expanded it to staying current. Not necessarily staying current, but keeping up with current events.
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Donna: Correct.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Donna: Yeah, that is so important and it's paid off. It benefited me in a great way.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, wonderful.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So thinking of credibility, right? It's it's something that's so key, Donna. So, like, we've grown up together. We know each other. You know, we know our life story. So we we've established a level of trust between ourselves, but we're talking about extending that to people that you you just know professionally. Obviously, in the workspace, we build relationships with people. Right? So sometimes it becomes a bit more.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: But what behaviors, Donna, have helped you earn trust and credibility as a leader?
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Donna: Yeah, that's that's a very good question as well. So I think.
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Donna: Put simply.
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Donna: Doing what you say you will do, right? So, you know, don't just be saying, oh, I'm going to do this and then you don't execute on it. It is very important that you follow through on it. And that really is one of the key pillars for credibility and trust, right? Doing what you say you will do.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yay.
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Donna: And then, especially when it is inconvenient, right? Not everything.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, that.
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Donna: Right? So that piece of it is very, very important because there are things that will be challenging, obviously, right?
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Donna: But if you can deliver on that and you go the extra mile and you try to solve it, people really, really, you know, you know, some of them, they would recognize what you do. And that helps to say, okay, the next time something complex comes on, you know, maybe, you know, this person will help come through, right? Right.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: I think that is very important. And then, you know, reliability is the foundation of trust. And without trust, leadership is just authority, which is fine.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: We're friends.
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Donna: Right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Donna: So that is one of the cornerstones for me. And then telling the truth, even when it costs you, right? Sometimes it's not easy to admit.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: You know, this is the case or whatever, but trust me, it will go a long way telling the truth because you're being, it goes back to being honest, like that's a common thread that's going through, right, for leadership. So early in my career, I learned that the temptation to tell people what they want to hear
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Donna: is anonymous and corrosive. It's not a good thing. You don't just tell people what is it. You have to be real, you have to give, you know.
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Donna: feedback on both sides of it, right? Because that's how people learn, right? There's no point in just doing the fake masquerade or whatever. You have to be real with people. And then I built credibility by being the person who brought honest assessments, right? Not comfortable ones, right? You're telling people how it is, right? And then also showing competence and character. That's really important. The character part of it is
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Donna: I think sometimes people miss that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: And you know, they figure they can just be a certain way. I'm delivering my work, but you know, so, but it goes hand in hand.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: Competence and character. The way you carry yourself is, you may not think people are looking, but it is important. But not even about people, but just about you.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: to yourself, that is why character is important, right? So people need to believe both that you know who you are.
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Donna: And that you have their interests at heart as well, right? So you're working not just for yoga, but for the good of the team, for the good of the organization or the community. It's also very important, right? So there's also a moral aspect of it.
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Donna: Yeah. And then… because either of those things are not… they're not sufficient on their own. It's a combination of all of that, right? So competence with a character produces brilliance.
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Donna: But it could be dangerous for leaders, is the message that I want to bring across, right? So…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: We have to be mindful of that. And then also giving credit generously. So that's a thing that I'm big on for my team, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Wonderful.
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Donna: So you don't just, you know, you have to acknowledge the good work that they're doing and you have to credit them for the things that they are contributing, right? So.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: You know, they're making the team look good. They're making you look good. You have to be.
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Donna: They are working hard and they deserve to be credited as well. So that's, that's really, really important. So I make it a practice to amplify the contributions of my team publicly and then also consistently, right? Because people, when they get that positive reinforcement, they should be motivated to do better.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: more. So that's really important. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, I love that. You know, giving credit where credit is due and giving feedback, giving it in the moment.
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Donna: Amen.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Making it real and authentic. But I also like that you talked about.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Again, the honesty. So giving honest feedback, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: you did this great, wonderful, or this could have been done this way, you know, and how can we support you, how can we talk you through it? So, and I
think, Donna, that helps you build the trust and credibility you talked about, because at the end of the day, you're being honest not only with yourself, but with them, right?
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Donna: Correct. Yeah, it's a balance of both. Yeah, that's absolutely necessary. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. So let's talk about adaptability, Donna. So it's something I have to deal with a lot, particularly working in special education, working with.
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Donna: Yeah, so.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: three- to five-year-olds, you know, things change, you know, in a second, right? And we have to be able to adapt. So why do you think, Donna, adaptability is one of the most important leadership skills today?
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Donna: Yes.
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Donna: First of all, I would say because of change, right, just as you mentioned in your aspect with things changing, the world we are leading now, it brings.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: There's.
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Donna: There's no resemblance to the world that existed, right? With most of our leadership frameworks were written, right? So we're still using some of those frameworks, but they have to be adapted to suit like current day, right? So things are changing so quickly. The world is different. As we know, artificial intelligence, AI.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: restructuring entire industries. It's vast, right? Yes. So there's also geopolitical shifts that are redrawing economic maps. There's so many things that are happening. Social movements are redefining expectations of institutions.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: For not necessarily what they're meaning now.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: And…
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Donna: It's not an easy thing to be in the middle of all of this and trying to grasp, right? So the leader who has a fixed playbook, an.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So.
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Donna: Faithfully is not a strong leader. They're a liability because they have to make, you know, accommodations for all of these things that I just mentioned, right? So adaptability is not.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: inconsistency. So we should make sure that we understand that it is not inconsistency. You can have unshakable values and.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Donna: Be flexible in your methods, right? In the way that you do things. In fact, I would say the most adaptable leaders I know are often the most principled because their values give them a stable kind of internal compass.
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Donna: Even as the external terrain is changing constantly. So they're able to maneuver themselves through all of that complexity that's happening. So many common themes across all the questions.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Donna: Right? So, which is really nice. And so I say, the leaders who struggle are those who have confused their identity with maybe their strategy, right? So when the strategy needs to change.
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Donna: Their experience is an attack on who they are and they resist. Adaptable leaders, however, have separated these two things, right? So that's really important. And that separation is so liberating, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Donna: It gives you the freedom to maneuver through that. So I think, I think it's important that, you know, people understand the difference between adaptability and also being inconsistent. And then also just acknowledging all of that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: that are happening in the world today. You cannot, if you're functioning in that narrow scope and you're not seeing beyond that, you're gonna have a major problem, right? You should already have a problem. So you need to be able to adapt.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Yes.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: you said something, you know, about values, knowing what your values are, holding true to them, like, that's your internal compass. So regardless of what's going on in the world, in the job environment, we need we know we need to adapt and change, but we still need to hold through, right, to to who we are. And so That is the point. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: No. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about just kind of segue into values based decision making. So how do your personal values, Donna, and your Grenadian heritage, like, really guide your decisions during times of, you know, things changing when you need to be flexible, when you need to adapt, you know, or when something is uncertain?
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Donna: Yeah, yeah. So that theme of uncertainty we're seeing across the board in terms of just how things are changing rapidly. So
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Donna: I think in terms of genuine uncertainty, strategy alone is not, you know, sufficient, right? So, you can model your way to clarity when the variables are unknown, but when you fall back, what we fall back on has to be our values, right? And if our values are not clear.
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Donna: Before something explodes or before a crisis happens.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: You will not be saved. You're gonna have a serious problem,
right? So…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: I think my Grenadian heritage gives me a particular set of values that I trust deeply. So the primacy of community.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: The importance of…
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Donna: Dignity for every person, regardless of their.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Donna: situation or their status, right? A belief that integrity.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Isn't.
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Donna: non-negotiable, even when it's costly.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: And then I would say a deep sense that leadership carries an obligation to the people who have the least power in any given system. So when I face a hard decision, I ask myself, does this choice reflect who I want to be?
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Donna: Does it serve the community, or just my personal interest? Right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: And I explained the decision to my mother and my father.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that. That is excellent.
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Donna: Feeling very important like that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that.
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Donna: Me right back to my house.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. I'm getting married.
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Donna: He's roared. Yeah. Right.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I love that daughter.
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Donna: Right away you kind of get that shake, right? You get that feeling, mom and daddy are not okay with this, or they will not be proud of that, then hello!
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: thinking, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So.
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Donna: The last question is the most useful than any government framework.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: You know, organizational framework, it goes back to the foundation of your.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: And so that's how I would answer that. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, I love that Dawn. I love the Dawn. I think I have to take a picture of that because.
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Donna: Okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Honey, I certainly, I know.
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Donna: All right, you know, we still have fun at times.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. No, but I love that. And I think it just keeps you, the fact that you're thinking about it really says a lot, right? And you're asking yourself.
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Donna: Okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Would they approve? Would they be okay? And it just helps us stay grounded. And, you know, it has a lot to do with your bringing, but then who you decided you were going to be, Donna, right? As your individual person. So I appreciate you sharing that. You know, that whole response is going to resonate with me for a while. Thank you.
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Donna: So.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So let's stop down a little bit about social responsibility. So, you know, as citizens of whatever the country may be, you know, just individuals in society, as leaders, as members, pillars in our society.
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Donna: Okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: We have some level of responsibility to our community, right? So I wanna talk a little bit about gender-based violence. We know, you know, this has been a hot topic, you know, in Grenada recently, but it's, it's a issue that's not isolated to Grenada, right?
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Donna: Exactly.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: remains, you know, this significant issue across the Caribbean, Grenada, you know, and around the world. So what role, Donna, do you believe us as leaders, right, should play in?
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Donna: Yeah, I know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Changing attitudes, changing systems, disrupting the cycles, interrupting the behaviors, right? And instead of allowing it to persist.
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Donna: That is such a crucial question in today's world, and I am abreast of what's happening in Grenada as well, right? So.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: And.
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Donna: say the role of leaders is, I would say, threefold. So, first.
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Donna: Model the values that they want to see. It's important that leaders do that, right? Practice what you preach, essentially, right? Leaders who speak about respect and dignity in public, but tolerate disrespect in private, whether in their boardrooms, their communities, your home.
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Donna: Are not leaders worth following, right? You cannot be having this double life, right? Like if you, you have to practice what you preach. So cultural change, I think, begins with behavior modeling at the top, right? Because you have to set the example, right? It is important that, you know, you have to understand that no matter what, there are people who look up to you, you are also in a position of power to have influence.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Yes.
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Donna:
You need to be cognizant of that. And then secondly, I would say use institutional power to change systems, right? This means advocating for legislation where possible, you know, that can protect survivors, holds perpetrators accountable, right?
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Donna: It means building organizational cultures where people can, you know, report abuse, put those structures in place, you know, people are able to speak up without being fearful of retaliation or dismissals, because we know that happens, right? A lot of people are scared.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: To eat.
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Donna: And you know, especially in a small society like Grenada, it's like, oh my God, like, you know, when you're somewhere like Canada or probably the US, you're a bit more invisible, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Donna: But in small society or anywhere, it's really important that people feel comfortable that they can, you know, put these things through the system.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Sorry.
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Donna: Think inherited. This also means funding prevention, education, and survivor services, not as a charity, but as a real fundamental, like, ministerial something in the case of Grenada, right? Like, it has to be, you know, something that is justice imperative.
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Donna: And then I say thirdly, engage men and boys, right? And I think it is important that we call this out, right? It's also women too, but it's important that we call it out.
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Donna: of the engagement of men and boys in doing this. So this is a conversation that cannot be led only by women. Men who hold social capital and institutional influence, they have a particular responsibility.
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Donna: Yeah. That they must own up to, right? They have a responsibility to dismantle the norms of masculinity that equates to, you know, control with strength, dominance with leadership. Like, these norms are not just harmful to women, right? They're diminishing to men as well. Right, exactly.
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Donna: Men and boys, like, they need… the education needs to happen, first of all, right? There needs to be an awareness of it, but I think, you know, all of those three things work hand in hand, and that should help, right? And it's… I mean, it's small bite-sized pieces at a time. People can't expect it to change overnight, but we need.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: taking the steps, right? It's imperative that the change needs to happen. Yep.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, 100% and really strong points in terms of education and ensuring that the men and the boys are involved.
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Donna: Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Boys from even young to, right?
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Donna: Correct, yes.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: And hearing that as they're growing up and then they're able to understand, you know, this is okay, this is not okay, you know.
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Donna: Correct. Yeah, I agree.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Alright, so let's talk a bit, Donna, as we start to close the conversation out about your legacy, your advice, right?
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Donna: Right.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Legacy. I'm, I'm a firm believer, Donna, you know, oftentimes when people are gone, they're like, oh, well this was their legacy. I like to think of legacy as something you're
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes. Right? So what impact do you hope, Donna, that you're having now, and what impact do you hope to continue to have on, you know, as a leader, on those that you lead, and those people you interact with, just even in your community?
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Donna: Yeah, so I think simply put.
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Donna: I hope people will say that I made them believe more was possible for themselves.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that.
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Donna: I think that is really important and.
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Donna: Not because I told them so in a motivational speech, but because they watched me do something that looked impossible at some point back to the computer.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Donna: part of it and solving that. But, you know, it's something that quietly rearranges senses, right, of their own limits.
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Donna: And what they are capable of, right? So I hope that the young professionals
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Donna: Especially from the Caribbean, you know, particularly those who grew up like I did, and you as well, Esther, right? In places that the world does not always, I wouldn't want to say, you know, not always recognize or take seriously, but that is the reality of it, because we're small, right? We're like a small tribal nation.
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Donna: of all of it, you know, that, you know, they will see in my journey a permission to slip and do something different, so to speak, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: It's not a blueprint because everyone's path is their own. So I'm not saying do exactly that I do. You need to cultivate your own path as well, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: you know, you belong in those rooms, you know, send that message to them that they have the confidence that they can do just as good, or even better, right? That they have something that the world needs, right? And you do not have to become someone else in order to succeed. So I hope that, you know, my journey
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Donna: My fostering, mentoring, et cetera, brings that, you know, across to them. And I also hope to leave behind, you know, institutions that are stronger, right? More ethical, more equitable than I found them, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: Leadership that only serves the leader has a very short shelf life, right? I want to build things that outlast me. And that goes back to your day to day point, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: you know, what you're leaving at the end, but what impact are you having on a day-to-day basis, right? So I try to be conscious of that, even with me at work, you know?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: So, even if.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Puerto.
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Donna: But that's because I'm trying to solve problems and to let people know that what they do has an impact.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: So you need to be conscious of that. You do your best at the end of the.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Do your best. Yeah.
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Donna: You do your best at the end of the day, but you have to strive and know that there's more to come. There's more that you can do. And you're so much capable than you even think or believe that you are, right? So I think that's what I said. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, I like that. I like the part about you said leaving the spaces more equitable, right? And I think equity is.
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Donna: It's.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: important. But I also love that you said that they have something that the world needs.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Like we all do, helping them really believe that and just being true to themselves, being their authentic self. So sometimes people might say, what might Donna say? What might Esther say? No, what would you say? Right? Be you, craft your own message and that they all have some, yeah, I, I, I love that. Yeah. It's very, very empowering, very empowering.
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Donna: Yes, thank you.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So Donna, let's close this out with, with what I've been calling like the Monday morning move, right? So just something specific, you know, that listeners can do like quite immediately or this week to, to sort of just begin creating positive change in their own lives and communities.
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Donna: okay
So I think what I would say for Monday morning move. Have one honest conversation.
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Donna: You've been avoiding, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that. Yeah.
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Donna: Have one honest conversation that you're going to have, because I think probably we all have several, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yay!
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Donna: If you can just aim to tackle one, you'll be, you know, amazed by the impact. So I think most of us have a conversation we know we need to have with.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Cool.
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Donna: leave or a family member. I'm like.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: Something that's probably not working, right? Something that's painful.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: with ourselves about the decision that we have been delaying.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes, yes.
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Donna: it because honest conversations are obviously uncomfortable. Nobody wants that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: Right, buddy.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: That discomfort is precisely where growth lies, right? So we have to open a door for that, right? To make that happen. So I would say this week, identify that conversation.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Donna: Prepare yourself with clarity about what you want to see and why it matters, and then go for it, right? With kindness, with cultivation. Change, personal, organization, societal, whatever it is.
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Donna: Almost always begins with someone deciding to tell the truth in a situation where it probably would have been easier to stay quiet, obviously.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, right. Yeah.
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Donna: But this person, this Monday, I'm just saying, please, if you can just open your mind, have that conversation, and believe me, you will be surprised at how much shifts
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Donna: when you do so. And I think that also ties into your point, which I really like about the legacy and the day-to-day.
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Donna: It also tells us that, you know, we should hold on to some of these things, right? Do our best whenever we can, and also don't hold on to these things, right? Like this difficult conversation or a grudge. We are human, so some things will take longer to process for certain people and all of that, but just be mindful of the bigger picture in life, right? That life is short, you have an opportunity now to fix.
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Donna: this, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes. Yeah.
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Donna: Practice this in this moment, in this time. Don't let it slip by because you don't know if you're going to have another opportunity, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Donna: Everything's not going to happen overnight, but you do have the power to change.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: So take a hold of it, have that conversation and try to make that change. Yeah, that's it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that. I'll have to sit with that this week, Dawn. I need to identify one. I need to choose one because I have some.
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Donna: Me too. We all have.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. All right. I have the week, right, Donna? Okay. You do, you do.
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Donna: I'm checking on you next week.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Oh yeah, that was, that was a strong point, to end on, Donna, just because it's so real, and it's so all of us, it's so authentic.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, no, you're, you're, you were talking on the whole time I'm in my head. All right, which one? But Donna, thank you so much, for joining, for sharing your insights, you know, for, for really like sort of, you know, embodying your experiences, right? Because we work in different fields, but we still have that ability and we have the opportunity to impact the lives of so many, right? Including the lives of our own children.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: And so.
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Donna: Yeah. So thank you. Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you so much.
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Donna: No, I think it's good. I'm happy that, you know, you gave me the opportunity to be part of this conversation because as you're asking the questions, it's kind of, it's introspection for me as well, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: of, you know, again, we know deep down that we're kind of tied to like our Grenadian roots and heritage, but sometimes it's hard to express it. But it is the compass that we go by, I'm sure.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: You know, you, a lot of us.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: We have a casual conversation, so I think
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Donna: it's good to kind of share that with people, because some people are not able to connect the dots, right? And, you know, when they hear some of this conversation, it kind of makes you think, you know? This episode, a lot of your other episodes as well, so I think it's really great that you have this forum for us to share with people what our experiences are, and it's learning as well.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Donna: So kudos to you for.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Donna: for carrying this on and going on this journey. I don't know how you do it, it sounds so work, but I have so much respect for you, and I'm so happy to be part of it. Thanks so much for having me on today.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: You're very welcome. Thank you so much, Dans. Have a very lovely day.
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Donna: Oh, you as well. Thanks again, Esther, and take care.
Outro
Thank you for listening to Behaviorally Speaking: Leadership for Change-Makers. Be sure to visit esthercbubbabaservices.com/blog for today's companion blog and additional leadership resources. Until next time, create the conditions for growth wherever you lead. I'm Dr. Esther Bubb. Stay inspired.