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Welcome to Behaviorally Speaking Leadership for Changemakers,
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where leadership is grounded in behavior, guided by dignity,
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and designed for change.
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I'm your host, Dr. Esther Bob. Let's dive into today's episode.
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Julia, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being
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here. I know we've been in connection. We met in the field several years ago
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and are still in contact. So I'm so happy to be chatting with you today. How are you doing?
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I am well, thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. I really am excited.
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Wonderful. Thank you. So let's start the conversation off, Julia,
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just talking a little bit about your origins and your professional journey.
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So tell us, tell the listeners about your journey and what experiences,
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Julia, really helped, really first inspired your passion for helping others grow and succeed? Sure.
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Before I even went to college, when I was in high school, I worked as a camp
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counselor. I worked in child care. I volunteered in the special education classroom
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in my high school during my study halls, during my lunch periods.
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And I really enjoyed it. And I loved the teacher that I was working with.
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Nice. So from early in my career, I've been drawn to work that is centered around
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helping others to build confidence, to build independence, and a sense of belonging.
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And in early intervention, we did that in homes, in,
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preschool environments, in childcare centers, in schools, being able to do that
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in community-based settings and also in public schools.
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It's just been, it's been great.
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So the early experiences that I had really taught me compassion,
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and it taught me to really build that equity and also to build the ability for
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kids to advocate for themselves as well as they were growing up.
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Wonderful. Thank you for that. It makes me think a bit, Julia, from what you shared.
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It's really seeing the potential, right, in the students from all of your experiences
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and believing in them, right? Kind of sort of like that Pygmalion effect where
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if we believe high things for people, they will achieve high things.
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So thank you for sharing that.
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But on that note, Julia, what about your work with autistic students?
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What really drew you to that? And then how has all of your experiences teaching
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autistic students shaped how you think about human potential today?
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So, working in, again, starting with my early intervention experience,
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it taught me to look beyond the traditional measures that we have for success.
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And instead, recognizing growth
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in communication, growth in emotional regulation, and in independence.
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And I still look at those things in my classroom today when I think of success for students.
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It doesn't always have to be something that's measured on a test score or measured
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by academics. It doesn't have to be if they can read all the words or read them very quickly.
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I always find like we want to do these measures of how fast can students read. And I'm like, why?
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Right, exactly. read it and they understand it, even if it took them two hours to read a chapter.
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Yeah. That to me is, you know, we just want to empower these kids and we want
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them to be able to take risks, right? Yeah. Yeah. And as a parent.
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And you know this, that my son has a disability. Yes. Also a pretty significant disability.
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And it taught me to, as a parent, to be a better parent.
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But to also set expectations really high. Because I found that the higher I
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set my expectations for my son, for my students, for my parents of kids that
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I work with. Yeah. That they rise to that.
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Yeah. They want those expectations.
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And it shows patience and it shows respect.
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It also takes creativity to help kids to come to a place where they can meet
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those goals, right? Yeah.
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So I do, I think it's, you know, it's not, potential is not limited by diagnosis, by any stretch.
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Sometimes you just have to think outside the box. Yes, I love that.
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I love that. The creativity, the thinking outside the box, it's what we do every
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day, you know, in our roles.
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And you talked about empowerment. So let's talk a little bit about building
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supported environments, right?
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So you see the potential, right? But how do you support and what does it look
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like, Julia, from your perspective to create an environment where people feel,
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including, right, individuals with autism,
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that they feel understood, they feel valued, and they feel empowered to thrive in the environment?
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So, I have found the biggest thing in my work has been building relationships
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and genuinely listening and paying attention to what's going on and really...
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Through the different organizations I've been part of, I've been part of a blind
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sports organization where I've been a coach and I've also been a ref for blind
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sports, also Best Buddies and Night to Shine.
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And seeing these people who like, these are adults now, right?
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And knowing I've seen kids that are tiny and I see where they can go.
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And that for me has been really important.
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And I was sharing with you earlier that for me, working in settings where it's,
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only kids with disabilities, that that's been tough because I need myself and
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those students to be able to see this is where you can go, right?
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Yeah. And I use those examples with students a lot so that they know that they can succeed.
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Yeah. And that maybe their success doesn't look like, you know,
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everyone else's success.
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Absolutely. I share that with parents very, very transparently that.
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You know, you have this student who's very special.
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Yeah. Not, you know, not.
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It's not that they're different, it's that they're special. Right.
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They have needs that maybe someone else's kid down the street doesn't have,
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but that they can succeed.
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But really listening to them and really giving that support and creating those
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spaces where their differences are respected and celebrated.
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Yes. So that they can be different and that's okay. Yeah.
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I think about on my door in my classroom. Yeah. Right now, I have a sign that
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says in our classroom, sometimes we spin, sometimes we flap, sometimes we jump.
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It's all okay. I love that.
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I love that. Yeah. And so that kind of lends itself, Julia, to my next thought-up
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question for you, right? Because you just shared the example of what's on your door.
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And while we have expectations for growth and see the potential in people,
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we have to meet them where they are.
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And it's like we have to remind ourselves to continue believing that we have
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to remind them and remind their parents, right, and those in their lives.
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So how do you balance meeting people where they are, right, while still holding
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expectations for I know this is where you can go, right, or I believe this is where you can get to?
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So for me, meeting people where they are doesn't mean lowering expectations in any way.
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It's providing the right supports for them and providing those pathways for them for success.
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So one of my favorite things is the initiative for Alternative Standards,
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where we are teaching to the regular standards, but providing that access a
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little bit differently.
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And really, we've been able to be given the tools to really recognize that we
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can still measure what they're doing and measure their progress as individuals.
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And it's not being measured against everybody else in the state or in the school.
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It's being measured against themselves, which I think is far more accurate.
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And wouldn't it be great if we did that with all kids, but we don't.
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It would be far less stressful.
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But, you know, focusing on their unique needs, focusing on their unique strengths
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and evaluating those things, finding their motivators has been huge.
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And for me, in talking to parents from my itty bitties all the way up to high
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school, really working together as a team approach, not me as the expert,
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not you as the, you know, this eight hours of,
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the day that they're with me. I don't know everything.
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They, you know, parents are a big part of it.
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My related services staff. So really building that team and growth looking different
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for everybody so that the kids and the parents can believe in the progress that they see.
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And I'm a big, I'm a big social, well, not social media, but like communicator with the parents.
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I take pictures every day. I show the parents what their kids are doing.
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I have parents that are like, oh my gosh, I didn't know my kid could do that.
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And I tell them to share with me as well, like anything
that's happening with their students at home.
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So that we're both being able to really celebrate those wins together.
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Wonderful. Yeah, that's really good. I like that, you know, you get the parent
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input, right? You share with them, but then you also get from them as well.
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And then, so we have been in the field for years. You know, we have a passion
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for, we believe in the students we support, but there are people who have misconceptions,
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right, about students we support, about people with special needs.
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You know, you talked about, they're not different, they're special, right?
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And so what misconceptions do you believe or aware of that people often hold
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about others, such as the students that we work with, who think or communicate
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differently? They're still thinking, they're still communicating,
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they're just doing it in their own way.
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And how do we change those mindsets, Julia? you.
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So I think the biggest misconception that I see is around communication.
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Behavior is communication.
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Somebody who's worked in this field for a long time, some kids are completely nonverbal.
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But that doesn't mean they're not communicating with us. I have a student right
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now who communicates very clearly what he wants and needs.
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And he doesn't even pick up his AAC device to tell us. He will,
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if he wants something, he will let us know.
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And sometimes he lets us know in ways that we would prefer he not.
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But that's just showing me his level of intelligence.
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It's showing me his capability and his desire to connect.
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And I think people miss that.
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I think people just look at students and think, oh, they're being bad or they're
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being naughty or Or they're trying to do this or they're trying.
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Yeah. They're not attention seeking.
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They want to connect. Yeah. And I think that people miss that point so often.
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Yeah. Students process, express, and experience the world differently.
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Yeah. And that's got to be okay.
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And really just being a voice for people that we work with is so important.
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One of the things for me is allowing our students to show off who they are. Last school year,
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in my school for Autism Awareness Month, we made a video and I couldn't post
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it, but I'll send it to you actually.
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It was great. We had those students, each individual student made a little recording
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and we had a script and we had one of my favorite students.
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He did, we pre-programmed his device so that he could share his part on his device.
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And it was interesting because we pushed it out for the whole school.
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Yeah. And there were teachers that came to me a couple days later and were like
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still crying. They were like, we didn't know that that's who this kid was.
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But like, we programmed his device
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knowing that all of the thoughts in his head were there. Yeah, yeah.
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It was great. But creating those opportunities for students so that people can see.
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Yes. One of the other things that we did was with a very active assemblies program at my last school.
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And I got to the point where I was like year two of me being in the building. I said, guess what?
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My class is going to participate in this also. And I did have students who were
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included very heavily in gen ed, but like my little core group of kids was like,
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we're going to be on stage two.
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And a couple of years ago, it was the winter assembly and the news came and
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whose class did they video.
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Your class they didn't video they didn't post you know on their yeah their news
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segment they didn't post anything else they posted my class,
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and like i celebrate that like people get to see who our kids really are Yeah.
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Yeah. Because I just don't think the mindset is that kids are authentically
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included or authentically understood. And I think the more exposure people have.
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The less they're confused about the students that I work with and that you work with.
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Our kids have so much going on.
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Yeah, so much. And they're so fun.
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Oh, my gosh, yes. Yeah, they're so fun. And so I like that. That was really,
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really a good answer to the question because you talked about sharing their stories, right?
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And just seeing someone. It's just like me looking at you, Julia.
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That's all I see is the person, right?
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What I
see physically is not who you are, right? So we have to get to know the
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people and the good way we get to know people, even like getting to know more
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about your experiences at work, know through the stories you're sharing.
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So I think that is really a good way, Julia, to be able to get people to change
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those mindsets is by having the people share their own stories,
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having our students and their families share their stories so people can really
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see, you know, behind just what they see visually. Yeah, I love that.
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So in all of that, let's kind of talk about leadership lessons from the classroom.
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You know, you've been in the classroom for a number of years.
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You're looking now to segue into, like, leadership roles, right?
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And so what have you learned along the way, Julia? I always say,
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and I'm sure you say the same thing, that leadership, it really isn't limited
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to a title, right? We all lead in our own way.
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How would you define leadership, Julia, in your work and in your life? Sure.
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Leadership for me is more about being a support and a positive influence and
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empowering other people, regardless of your position.
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Throughout my career, I've stepped into leadership roles with my big toe, with my whole arm.
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But it's collaborating and it's advocacy. It's serving.
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One of my favorite leaders, I define as a servant leader.
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She is a person who, if someone's struggling, she will go into a classroom and model for the staff.
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This is what I would love to see happening in here.
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So being that support. As a special ed teacher in autistic support and life
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skills settings predominantly, leadership means coordinating things,
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making things happen, mentoring,
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and supporting their families.
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Helping create systems that allow the students as much access to the things
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that they need as can be, as can be. Yes. Yeah.
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I was really fortunate last school year. I was asked to be the extended school year lead.
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Okay. Even though my school knew that I was leaving. Yeah. They were like, well, guess what?
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We need somebody who has really good leadership skills to run this.
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And why not you? Yeah. So it was
great. But I do so many different things.
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Yeah. And all of it, again, it's, you know, trying to be involved.
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Letting people know about different opportunities that exist,
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whether it's Night to Shine, which is like a beautiful program.
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Okay. And opportunities for kids.
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And posting that stuff. Yeah. I like using my social media to get the word out
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so that people know that there are opportunities. Yeah.
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In my personal life, leadership means leading with integrity and empathy and consistency.
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They think that we create space for people to be valued and heard.
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And encouraging accountability, I think that's huge. Yeah.
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I think the most impactful leadership people for me have been people who are
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quiet, but also just allow for growth and encourage that.
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And maybe they're supporting somebody through a challenge or helping them build
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confidence and advocating for
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them because maybe they haven't found their voice quite yet. Yeah, yeah.
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I love that. I'm smiling because you said, you know, your favorite leaders are
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the ones who acquire, but advocate for growth.
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It made me think of myself because I'm like, as you know, I'm not like really
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that outgoing, but I'm really focused on helping people grow.
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And then you talked about your mentor and the way she made you and like teachers feel.
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It made me think of Maya Angelou's quote. It was, people may forget what you
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said, but not how you made them feel, right? So that made me think about that.
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And then you also talked about feeling valued and heard.
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So it brings me to this next concept of psychological safety,
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Julia, right? How do you create psychological safety so people feel comfortable
00:18:02.345 --> 00:18:07.189
taking risks, making mistakes, growing, feeling valued, feeling heard? How do you do that?
00:18:07.898 --> 00:18:12.305
Or how do leaders do that? I work super intentionally to create environments
00:18:12.305 --> 00:18:17.929
where people know that they're respected and supported and not shamed if they make mistakes.
00:18:18.243 --> 00:18:23.835
Yeah. I find all of the classrooms that I've worked in were very paraprofessional
00:18:23.835 --> 00:18:30.420
heavy because the students do need additional adult support to help them to succeed, right?
00:18:31.395 --> 00:18:37.687
So allowing them to
feel like they can trust me and sometimes having to bite my tongue.
00:18:38.691 --> 00:18:42.384
Because I'm not necessarily their peer.
00:18:42.744 --> 00:18:48.758
Yeah. So if they share something with me, just listening, trying really hard
00:18:48.758 --> 00:18:50.273
not to judge what they're saying.
00:18:50.726 --> 00:18:55.184
Yeah, 100%. Say it from a place of not knowing. Yeah. Right?
00:18:56.148 --> 00:19:00.928
Yeah. Helping them to work through the challenges and helping them to understand
00:19:00.928 --> 00:19:06.045
that we need to be helping the kids to take risks along with us.
00:19:06.358 --> 00:19:13.969
So it's okay for a student to do X, Y, and Z because that's how they're going to learn, right?
00:19:14.445 --> 00:19:19.518
But teaching people that and teaching my colleagues in my hallway.
00:19:20.428 --> 00:19:26.738
One thing, my classroom currently is located in a hallway that is not the best
00:19:26.738 --> 00:19:29.709
hallway for my students to be on. I teach second and third grade.
00:19:30.208 --> 00:19:35.543
And when the building was designed and opened, we're in a brand new, beautiful building.
00:19:36.476 --> 00:19:44.703
They, our classroom and the classroom next to me are not really run by the school itself.
00:19:45.086 --> 00:19:46.979
We're run by an outside program.
00:19:47.814 --> 00:19:51.524
We're still part of the school district. But when they were putting,
00:19:51.524 --> 00:19:57.788
deciding where to put our classroom, they put it upstairs, not with the second and third graders.
00:19:58.362 --> 00:20:00.789
When on the eighth grade hallway.
00:20:01.682 --> 00:20:04.404
Okay. So these are second and third graders with audio. Yeah.
00:20:04.729 --> 00:20:09.044
What do they do? They imitate behaviors, right? Yes, yes. So I do hear a lot
00:20:09.044 --> 00:20:11.103
of cursing from my kids. Okay.
00:20:11.550 --> 00:20:17.257
But one of the things for me is trying to make things as safe as possible for them.
00:20:17.530 --> 00:20:22.864
So transitioning at different times than the rest of the hallway is transitioning,
00:20:22.864 --> 00:20:26.394
giving them that extra space, allowing for their.
00:20:27.343 --> 00:20:33.774
You know, allowing for their neurodiverse brains to be settled before we make a transition, right?
00:20:34.483 --> 00:20:40.274
And allowing those same things for my staff so really respecting them and knowing
00:20:40.274 --> 00:20:44.834
like okay we all need lunch breaks let's figure out what works the best for
00:20:44.834 --> 00:20:48.454
all of us so having that shared discussion and,
00:20:49.477 --> 00:20:54.562
being able to communicate as calmly as i can with them if there is something
00:20:54.963 --> 00:20:58.697
and modeling patients yeah so yeah i mean it's.
00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:03.991
It's all about celebrating individuality, right? Yeah.
00:21:04.421 --> 00:21:08.513
And supporting that everybody just does things differently.
00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:15.426
Yeah. Some people learn from tactile experiences. Some people learn from auditory experiences.
00:21:15.931 --> 00:21:18.961
Some people are more visual. That's okay, no matter how it is.
00:21:19.368 --> 00:21:21.580
And as long as we keep trying and
00:21:21.580 --> 00:21:25.579
keep moving forward, even when we have a setback, it's completely okay.
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.820
Yeah. Yeah, I love that you said, you know, celebrating individuality.
00:21:30.820 --> 00:21:32.950
It's so important. And you also talked about modeling, right?
00:21:32.950 --> 00:21:36.780
It's one of the ways, as you were saying, in terms of psychological safety,
00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:39.549
it's just modeling, right? Psychologically safe behaviors.
00:21:40.036 --> 00:21:44.590
But on the point of celebrating individuality, I want to use that to go into our final reflection.
00:21:44.590 --> 00:21:48.310
So I know you're really big on inclusion, right? Diversity, equity,
00:21:48.710 --> 00:21:51.430
seeing people as individuals, as you just said, who they are.
00:21:51.430 --> 00:21:56.080
So if every leader, Julia, could embrace one principle about supporting people
00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:58.393
with diverse strengths and needs, what would yours be?
00:22:00.456 --> 00:22:04.026
I think if we could all do this one thing.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:12.423
Assume competence. Wonderful. Too often, people are defined by their struggle,
00:22:13.450 --> 00:22:19.827
instead of recognized for their strengths and perspectives and the potential that they bring.
00:22:20.407 --> 00:22:27.309
Whether it's in education, community spaces, true inclusion really happens sometimes.
00:22:28.585 --> 00:22:32.577
When we create environments that are flexible enough for different people to
00:22:32.577 --> 00:22:34.977
thrive. Yeah, I love that.
00:22:35.933 --> 00:22:40.171
Access, dignity, opportunity, and the feeling that they belong.
00:22:40.943 --> 00:22:44.617
Yeah, that they belong. I love that. Like anyone I say, Julia,
00:22:44.617 --> 00:22:47.560
should walk into any classroom, any school and just feel like they belong.
00:22:48.007 --> 00:22:50.727
And it's more than the building. It's more than the people. It is the people
00:22:50.727 --> 00:22:53.747
celebrating them. It's what we have up on the walls, right? The different languages
00:22:53.747 --> 00:22:56.146
and things like that. So I love that. I love that.
00:22:56.489 --> 00:22:59.357
Doing the things we need to do to make them feel like they belong.
00:22:59.357 --> 00:23:05.077
So on that note of belonging, Julia, what does being a change maker mean to you?
00:23:05.517 --> 00:23:09.087
And how are you helping to create a world, a classroom, a building,
00:23:09.087 --> 00:23:11.422
a community where most people feel that they truly belong?
00:23:12.304 --> 00:23:15.665
So for me, I refer to myself as a ruckus maker.
00:23:16.917 --> 00:23:22.057
I am not that person who sits down and is quiet.
Nobody puts baby in a corner.
00:23:24.448 --> 00:23:28.581
I will always be that person that creates challenge.
00:23:29.537 --> 00:23:35.687
And that believes that you have to use your voice and your actions and your
00:23:35.687 --> 00:23:39.955
influence in whatever way you can to create spaces that are more equitable,
00:23:40.373 --> 00:23:43.502
compassionate, and accessible for everyone.
00:23:44.183 --> 00:23:49.687
Real change happens when there are everyday moments, not necessarily the big
00:23:49.687 --> 00:23:51.967
things, but it's in the little things that we see.
00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:57.221
It's how we speak to people, how we use our voices to include people,
00:23:57.749 --> 00:24:01.813
how we choose to understand over making judgments.
00:24:02.898 --> 00:24:06.852
And that doesn't just happen just in special ed spaces. That happens in all
00:24:06.852 --> 00:24:09.009
spaces. A hundred percent, yeah.
00:24:09.629 --> 00:24:13.532
Yeah, I love that. Not only special ed spaces, all spaces, right?
00:24:13.832 --> 00:24:17.602
And so that's the message I want to share is that even though I'm largely based
00:24:17.602 --> 00:24:21.547
in education, you know, special education, APA, autism, applied labor analysis,
00:24:22.081 --> 00:24:24.662
it's like the messages are for everyone. It doesn't matter who you are,
00:24:24.662 --> 00:24:25.743
where you're at, what space.
00:24:26.812 --> 00:24:30.992
It all applies, you know, wherever. So to close us out, Julia,
00:24:31.332 --> 00:24:35.432
what is one Monday morning move, a specific action that listeners can take immediately
00:24:35.432 --> 00:24:37.348
to begin creating positive change?
00:24:38.133 --> 00:24:45.435
I think intentionally learning from someone who has a different perspective,
00:24:46.051 --> 00:24:48.181
or different experience from yourself.
00:24:48.767 --> 00:24:54.812
Being open to that could mean, it could mean just listening more closely to
00:24:54.812 --> 00:25:00.194
a student, to a co-worker, to a family member, or to somebody that we meet at the grocery store,
00:25:00.652 --> 00:25:04.692
who may not always feel that they are seen and heard.
00:25:05.238 --> 00:25:10.910
Asking questions with curiosity instead of making assumptions and really listening,
00:25:11.391 --> 00:25:14.242
to understand, not just to respond.
00:25:14.992 --> 00:25:20.552
Inclusion doesn't begin with big gestures. It begins with the small daily choices
00:25:20.552 --> 00:25:27.750
that we all make to help people to feel valued and respected and safe so that they can be themselves.
00:25:28.402 --> 00:25:34.863
I think that's the most meaningful change that can happen is one person at a time.
00:25:35.363 --> 00:25:37.712
Yeah. Wonderful. I love that.
00:25:39.078 --> 00:25:41.892
Listening to something from someone else's perspective, we learn a lot that
00:25:41.892 --> 00:25:46.772
way. We learn a lot that way. Julia, thank you so much for all the golden nuggets you shared.
00:25:47.251 --> 00:25:51.542
And I know our listeners would be able to take away a lot from what you said.
00:25:51.542 --> 00:25:53.816
Thank you so much for your time. It was a pleasure having you on the show.
00:25:54.751 --> 00:25:56.811
Thank you. You're very welcome.