บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ [Revisit] Conjuring Worlds with Maurice Mitchell

00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:47.279 She hustled on Long Island, working in other people's homes, Monday through Friday, living in their homes. 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.000 And in the weekends, she didn't have a place to stay. 00:05:50.240 --> 00:06:06.879 And she found community because a woman who was a church elder noticed her in this place, Long Beach, where I ended up being born and raised, like just kind of hanging out in the square, the town square, because she'd have a place to stay. 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:15.759 She noticed her, this black woman elder of a church, and they started a relationship that helped her get connected to the community in Long Beach. 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:17.759 She eventually got an apartment. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:26.240 Eventually, she was able to bring my grandmother, my grandfather over, one of her older children over, and they all hustled in this one apartment. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.040 And eventually she was able to own property here. 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:40.000 And she spent about a decade reconnecting the family and re-establishing the family here in the United States. 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:46.879 So from the mid-60s to the 70s, was getting one child over, another child over, another child over. 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:48.639 And that was a whole process. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:56.160 And so by the time I'm born in the late 70s, 1979, she's re-established the family in the United States. 00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:02.079 She's come here as a domestic worker who at one point was homeless. 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.240 She's bought property. 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:09.439 And I was sort of the recipient of all of that struggle. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:33.360 And surrounded by aunts and uncles and cousins, galore, and I grew up in this context at the sort of the birth of the neoliberal era, the Reagan era, the crack era, you know, my mom was a nurse that worked in Far Rockaway at the height of the crack era, specifically working in detox. 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:36.319 So working with people with multiple chemical dependencies. 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:39.519 My dad worked as an electrician. 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:40.959 They both had unions. 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:42.959 So I was in a union household. 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:58.240 So my dad is from Grenada, and from 79 to 84, that was the new drool movement in Grenada when Grenada was this independent Black Socialist Republic, and Maurice Bishop and the New Jewel movement led that. 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.600 So we had a lot of pride in what was happening in Grenada and the transformation that was taking place there. 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:17.680 And my parents were not political activists, but they very much, they very much elevated the stories of Black resistance from Malcolm to Martin to Garvey. 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:35.919 And I really early on, when I noticed, I was able to notice how race, class, gender, immigration status, I intuited how they were could be real barriers to people being able to experience joy, being being able to experience connection. 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:45.279 And that coupled with the stories about the UNIA, even recent stories, like when the move bombing happened, my dad would talk about it all the time. 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.960 I developed this consciousness where I wanted to be part of the movement. 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.200 I wasn't sure exactly what that looked like. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:53.679 But you know how like kids are like, I want to be a fireman. 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.320 I wanted to be involved in movement. 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:18.000 And it was really like I felt the thing that most deeply informed my movement journey and what keeps me connected is witnessing my grandmother make meatballs in the kitchen and share a little bit about her life and try to help me with math. 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:24.639 And her kind of bemoaning the fact that every few years math changes and she's like, This is not what is what is this? 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:43.120 You know, and you know, witnessing the hustle and the struggle and the dignity in that, but then also the downside of that, and just wanting my people, the people that I care deeply about, to have happiness. 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:45.120 That really motivates me. 00:09:45.279 --> 00:10:31.200 I think also growing up in a multiracial suburb of New York and encountering racism myself, encountering the intense racism and the expectations of black boys in the educational sort of setting, and how many barriers were put in front of me to prevent me from actually excelling, from you know, very early on tracking me to special ed because I was black and tracking, you know, my white counterparts to the sort of gifted programs and knowing deep in my soul that that was a violation to, you know, when I was an older student, you know, every single English teacher I ever had, whenever I wrote my first paper, they would bring me aside and be like, Did you write this? 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:40.080 You know, in all those different ways that the the institutions try to try to steer you into otherness. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.919 I I I develop a deep resistance to that. 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:49.120 And that has propelled me into most of the life decisions that I've chosen. 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:50.480 That's really powerful. 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.120 And and thank you for invoking your grandmother. 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.840 It's just wonderful to hear about her journey. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:09.519 And you and I come from a very similar era, we're a couple years apart, but some of the things you're referring to, though it looked different in Texas, I'm like, yeah, it resonates with me how we get shaped by especially the educational system. 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:12.799 I want to start in the deep end here. 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:13.679 Let's do it. 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:23.759 And then um find our way

towards this joy that I feel that you're talking about that I also just feel from you so often. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:31.120 But I would say that we are witnessing and experiencing rise in authoritarianism in this moment. 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:39.120 And I wonder how you make meaning of this, how you explain this phenomenon, what what's sort of happening? 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:50.639 Because I think we're all watching the news and experiencing what's happening in our own societies and governments, and it feels like a really interconnected strategic rise. 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.440 And and I wonder how how you explain what's happening. 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:55.840 Like how how do you talk about what we're seeing? 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.720 Yeah, the way that I talk about it. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:12.240 So as somebody that was born almost to the day when sort of the neoliberal era really took off, I think about it in the context of the past 40 years, right? 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:24.559 And so, yeah, we've lived under capitalism for some time now, but the phase of capitalism that we're living under, neoliberalism has a certain logic to it and prescribes certain solutions. 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:37.840 And we've been living under the this neoliberal consensus for a while, where in the United States, for example, Republicans and Democrats basically agreed on some of these ideas. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:54.960 You know, it ranges from this idea of free trade, which has which has led to millions of good-paying union jobs in manufacturing to leave the United States and go elsewhere, and those communities to be completely devastated. 00:12:55.120 --> 00:13:13.919 And a lot of those jobs, those working class jobs, allowed people to have dignified work, where they were able to own homes, where they were able to take care of their families, and to be able to establish this idea that there's an American dream we're fighting for. 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:18.799 So that's just one aspect of this neoliberal philosophy. 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:26.080 NAFTA, which was signed by a Democratic uh president Clinton, led to all of those jobs being offshore. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:35.360 But then there's other ideas, this idea of shareholder supremacy, this idea that the only thing that a company should care about is profit. 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.960 And the only stakeholder that matters is the shareholder. 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:46.080 And the job of any company is simply to grow in order to satisfy the demands of shareholders. 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:51.440 That idea, as like just gospel, is part of neoliberalism. 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:55.759 There used to be this idea that there's multiple stakeholders, right? 00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:03.759 That shareholders might be a stakeholder, but then also workers are a stakeholder and the community is a stakeholder. 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:04.799 That's out the window. 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:12.720 There's two pieces: the idea that the market, that there's something magical about the market, and that all solutions could come from the market. 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.559 And the market is always efficient and more effective than anything else. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:26.559 And it's our job to basically be shrinking the commons, shrinking the things that we all depend on collectively, and finding a market-based solution. 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:35.840 And so here we are, more than 40 years into this experiment that accepts all these things as gospel all around the world. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.799 So this is a global economic system. 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:50.639 And what's happened is like we see it like even with the class of people that America had told that it was reserving the American dream. 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:56.320 If you look around the world, working people of all stripes are feeling this deep sense of alienation. 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:06.080 Because another thing that neoliberalism talks about, like it's a whole, it's an economic philosophy, but it's also a set of ideas and logic. 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.679 This idea that there's no society, that we're all individuals. 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:10.799 It's just in the air. 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.559 There's no society, we're all individuals, growth, growth, growth. 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.559 It's just all about unlimited growth. 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:28.559 And so people are feeling in their souls, in their psyche, the impact of four decades of that, of living in this like pro-growth. 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:34.720 Greed is good, there is no society, there's only individuals. 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:38.159 It's the shareholder, whatever the shareholder wants. 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:40.080 And people feel left behind. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:44.480 People feel a sense of economic insecurity and physical insecurity. 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:46.960 People feel deeply betrayed. 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:49.759 People feel a sense of stolen dignity. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:16:01.039 And in comes right wing populists who offer, I think, a very, very compelling story about how we got here and how we could get out of here. 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:06.960 And so what the right wing populists tell us is yes, believe your eyes and ears. 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:14.000 If you're feeling alienation, if you're feeling hurt, if you're feeling a sense of stolen dignity, you're right. 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.879 Your dignity has been stolen from you. 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:26.320 They, the elites, stole it from you and they gave it to the other, the immigrants, right? 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:31.039 They gave it to migrants, they gave it to black folks, they gave it to the undeserved. 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:36.159 It's us, the deserved, versus them, the undeserved. 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:47.360 Work with me, give our movement power so I can help you protect your family, so I can help you reclaim your dignity

from them. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:17:17.599 If you are able to understand the material and economic base for what's happening, which is 40 years of unchecked sort of capitalism on steroids through neoliberalism, to me, that helps me understand why so many everyday people around the world, across race, across gender, feel this sense of deep alienation, feel the sense of like, I'm doing everything that they said I should do. 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.839 Yes, there's abject poverty. 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.480 And and we've always had abject poverty. 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:27.680 And that's deep, and that's that causes deep alienation and deep pain and suffering. 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:33.759 But even people who are relatively middle class are asking the question of, is that it? 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:34.720 Is this just it? 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.799 Am I just a cog in this machine? 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:44.960 And so it's causing this crisis of legitimacy where people are beginning to look at all of these institutions anew and questioning everything. 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:57.440 And the right wing populists are providing a story that is very compelling, whereas a lot of the pro-democracy forces are status quo forces. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:09.200 So while the right wing populists are saying, I see you, I feel you, that feeling, that pit in your stomach, I am choosing to bear witness to your suffering. 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:22.160 The status quo forces tend to say, help me not protect your family or help me work with you to regain your dignity, help me protect democracy. 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:32.240 Again, help me protect the institutions, help me protect the ideas and emblems of the status quo that actually have you in this position. 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:49.599 It's the biggest recruitment recipe for the right wing, where the right wing is ironically demonstrating more compassion for the emotional condition of working people than the pro-democracy forces that are basically saying things are gonna get better. 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:51.839 Things aren't as bad as you think they are. 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.759 Don't believe your eyes and ears, don't believe your heart. 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.839 Just vote for us again, and we'll make things marginally better. 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.240 Where the right wing is saying, no, no, no, no, no. 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:04.160 Things are not good. 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.079 That pit in your stomach, believe it. 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.119 I see you. 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.960 Join me, and we will vanquish our enemies. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:22.640 Okay, so I I really appreciate what you're saying and how you're breaking it down because it's so visceral, and I think there's so many people that relate to that feeling that are experiencing that. 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:28.640 And a question I have for you, I have a lot of questions out of this, but this is where I want to start. 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:38.079 You talked about the sort of pro-democracy folks, this is not not telling a compelling story, not telling a story of people's lives and how they actually feel. 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:55.599 This is something I am often feeling, which is that we are not actually, and I would say on the left, telling a compelling story about who we are together and what it could be like if we actually work together. 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:05.039 I'm wondering if you share that assessment, if if you have thoughts either on why we struggle to tell that story or what that story could be. 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:18.720 Um, one thing I just want to add is that I, you know, when you talked about the right telling a compelling story, I'm like, even Make America Great Again, it's like it's an it's a perverse kind of nostalgia in this way. 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.079 Because there's so many, I mean, it just I don't even want to get into it. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.640 But it offers a kind of vision. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:29.839 It is not a vision that compels me, but it does offer a kind of vision. 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:41.839 And I think even for some of our folks and our family, there's still inside of us that desire to have been included in the American dream, to have had access to that. 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.400 That's still really alive in so many of us. 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:54.160 So I guess my question is what's your sense of what a compelling vision is for who we could be together? 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:54.960 Yeah. 00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:12.319 Well, I do I do actually believe that way too many people who are part of the broad pro-democracy united front or people on the left, have not, I think, considered this as much as I would want us to consider it. 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.200 And I think there's a number of reasons for it, actually. 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:25.039 One of the areas that I believe the right has been able to make investments in over time has been in ideology, right? 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:34.640 And one way of thinking about ideology is it's like it's a big story that helps you understand where you are and where you're going. 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:40.880 There's a lot of reasons why, in the context of the United States, there's asymmetry there, right? 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:49.440 There were active measures made in order to interrupt the ideological traditions of the US left. 00:21:49.599 --> 00:22:10.880 A lot of people over a number of generations, there were two Red Scares, there was COINTELPRO, there were a lot of resources put into Sometimes jailing, sometimes killing, sometimes co-opting leaders and folks who are leading a very particular ideological vision on the left. 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:21.599 And so as a result, folks on the left tend to be more tactical and not necessarily nest these tactics. 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.759 So, for example, when I say tactical, I mean like, all right, we're

gonna respond by doing a rally. 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:29.119 Rally is a tactic. 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:31.839 The to what end is the strategy. 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.359 And I would, I would argue that the right has invested more in the to what end. 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:39.920 And this is not to blame anybody on the left. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.480 Again, I want to put in the context of all of the work that's been done to interrupt. 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:58.720 But as a result, we're at a place where our storytelling is not as rich, because in order to tell the story, we need to understand the context, which is the ideological work. 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:04.240 And so one of the things that I believe very strongly in is to make that investment. 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:10.400 Otherwise, you're going to tell a story based on somebody else's terrain. 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:24.079 If you're not clear about which ideological tradition and which strategy, then you're probably inside of somebody else's strategy and you're probably advancing somebody else's ideological vision. 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:28.240 And so even our best attempts at resistance, right? 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:33.599 Like I use the analogy of like, you know, you could buy a Che Gravera t-shirt in the mall. 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.519 You have to make sure that your tactics aren't the Che Gravera t-shirt in the mall. 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.640 The only way you could do that is by nesting it inside of a strategy. 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:46.319 And the only way you could be clear about your strategy is by actually taking the time to understand the vision. 00:23:46.480 --> 00:24:04.799 So I tend to believe that a lot of the us them storytelling that is told is basically people in our movement playing the role of reliable progressive activists in a story told by the right wing. 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:05.359 Right. 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:22.480 So Fox News, News Corp, their business case is based on the idea that there's a binary tribal reality, that there's us and them, that there's red America and blue America, that there's progressives and conservatives. 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:35.039 When we play into that narrative, I don't, I think it's it's a story that we could always we'll always lose because our project is different than the right wing project. 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.079 Our project is not the mirror image of the right wing project. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:54.559 And so if you find yourself just being the mirror image, where a lot of what they do in the right wing is to dehumanize the other, and then we're simply othering quote unquote them, then we're actually in the othering business, which is the business of the right wing. 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.920 We're in the alienation business, which is the business of the right wing. 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:22.160 Even in our efforts to call out what they're doing, or even in our efforts to tactically whack-a-mole one issue or another, or respond to one controversy, right wing controversy or another, if we respond in a way that is just part of the othering machine, then we're part of News Corps and Fox News' whole business strategy. 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:23.759 So we have to interrupt that. 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:28.640 And I would argue that our job is to build the bigger we. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:33.519 Our job is to actually challenge the othering that's taking place. 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:35.039 I want to make sure I'm clear. 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:36.799 Like, I do believe in fights. 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.640 I do, I do believe that there are battle lines that should be drawn. 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:50.960 I'm just I'm just curious about ensuring that we're not engaging in fights on battle lines that have been drawn by the right wing and that we're choosing which theater battle we want to engage in. 00:25:51.119 --> 00:26:11.039 And I think there's a lot of opportunity around engaging working people of all stripes, including working people that might disagree with you on a lot of things, in understanding that there actually are some battles that we could be involved in that allow us to see one another as potential partners. 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:12.640 And I'll just give an example. 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:16.960 I was at a strike line in Toledo. 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:35.039 I saw young black women who was working in the Jeep plant in Toledo for maybe like five, six years, on the same strike line as an older white man who'd been there for decades, who had like a right-wing t-shirt on, right next to an older, older black guy who had worked similarly for decades. 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.519 They all recognized that they were part of the same same struggle. 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.720 And it was obvious that there was a lot of difference there. 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:53.039 And it was through that fight, that shared fight against the corporation, that they were learning over time how to be with one another and how to see one another. 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.839 And I don't want to be Pollyanna-ish about it, right? 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:07.039 Because those differences remained, but the solidarity and the the reasoning that solidarity is a choice, that came to the surface because of that fight. 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:09.519 And so I think that's our job. 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:26.480 Our job as organizers is to help people see cause for solidarity and to recognize that the othering of other working people only serves the interest of the white Christian nationalists and the corporations, right? 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:33.759 Like there's a reason why, in the logic of neoliberalism, there's this idea that there is no society. 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:38.640 One of the reasons is if there is no society and it's just me, why organize? 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.240 Why join a union? 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:45.119 Why it's like all of those things are

useless if there's if there is no society. 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:46.799 My job is to grind. 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:51.119 My job is to put my head down and to figure out how I could hustle. 00:27:51.279 --> 00:28:02.960 You know, it's like, you know, one of my like one of my conspiracy theories is that one of the reasons why American Ninja Warrior is so popular is that it's a metaphor for capitalism. 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:13.039 And it's like there's this elaborate course that's almost impossible to achieve, but technically it's achievable. 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:25.279 And simply because technically it's achievable, everybody that's watching American Ninja Warrior from their homes or from wherever, there's some something inside of you that believes, like, you know, if I trained enough, I could do this. 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:27.200 I could actually do this. 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:48.559 And when we're looking at the success of an Oprah Winfrey, for example, and we hear these stories, and we hear these exception to the rule stories about our current system, that in is one way that neoliberalism is teaching us, like, yeah, see, there's no society, there's just individuals. 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.680 If you can be Oprah, then you could achieve this thing. 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.319 I'm more curious about the rule, though, not the exception. 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:02.160 And it's the job for people who are the exception to remind everybody of the rule. 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:07.599 And I think that that is the work that our movements can do, that organizing can do. 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:25.359 It can help people take a beat and to look at their condition and the condition of society in a different way so that they could begin to perceive the rule and not just become obsessed with being the exception and then say, like, wait, why are we running through this course? 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.400 Why is there a moat? 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.799 You know, like why who put this moat here? 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:34.480 You know, why is there a moat? 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.599 Why are we scaling this wall? 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:42.880 You know, you begin to ask yourself those questions instead of just being curious about how you scale the wall. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.880 Like we talk about crabs in the barrel. 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:49.680 Crabs habitat naturally is not a barrel. 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.680 So who took the who took the crabs, who put them in the barrel, who built the barrel? 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:59.759 These are the questions that we begin to ask ourselves when we're able to organize ourselves as working people. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:12.000 And then then we could make other decisions instead of me versus you, despite our differences, what would it look like if we joined forces to ensure crabs are never in a barrel to begin with? 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:19.920 The crabs in the barrel analogy is incomplete because it becomes why are you hating on me for leaving the barrel? 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.559 instead of why is there a barrel to begin with? 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.400 Who took us out of our natural habitat and placed us in this barrel? 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:37.599 Those are the questions that our movement could begin to ask instead of the questions that are the curiosity of cable news, which is like in the binary sorting, are you right or wrong? 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:38.559 Are you left or right? 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:40.720 Are you blue or are you red? 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.799 Gosh, you touched on so many things that I wanted to talk to you about. 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.359 And so I might want to go deeper in a few of those places. 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:54.480 You know that I am particularly interested in emotions and the body and how it relates to everything that you're saying. 00:30:54.640 --> 00:31:05.200 So, you know, as you're talking about becoming a we, becoming a we, I'm thinking a lot about what stops people, like what actually gets in the way. 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.599 And some of it you're saying, what's the story? 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.839 How are people situating themselves in story and in relationship to one another? 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:18.559 And thinking also about safety or how we understand safety in our movements or in the world. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:36.160 And one of the things I've been tracking inside of organizations and movements is that it feels like for a lot of us, safety is increasingly, maybe, and I think this relates to what you're saying about dehumanization, but increasingly is sort of the absence of difference. 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:53.680 That's how we understand what produces safety, as opposed to what I think I hear you saying, that safety, and this is also what I believe, that safety is sort of generated through relationship and connection, that that's actually where safety comes. 00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:01.119 But I I feel us so often in this other space of I'm going to be safe when we align. 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:16.960 And what I understand about that, and what really resonates for me too, is that it can feel really threatening to be close to someone who may be espousing beliefs that feel contradictory to you being able to live fully in your life. 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.519 How do you hold that? 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:26.559 And and more the question I have, and this is one I'm often holding, is like, how do we do that? 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:30.559 What does it take inside of us to be able to do that? 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:42.799 To be able to go, there's difference here, and there's enough of a connection, and there's enough of a kind of intactness inside of me that makes it possible to maintain this connection. 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:44.079 Does that make sense what I'm saying? 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:44.960 Absolutely. 00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:45.440 Yeah. 00:32:45.599 -->

00:32:49.680 I have a lot of skepticism when I approach binaries. 00:32:49.920 --> 00:33:03.519 I've rarely found a binary that actually reflects my experience of reality or a binary where the people that I care deeply about don't happen to be on the bottom of that. 00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:04.160 Right? 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:05.759 Same, same, Mo. 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:10.319 So, so this question I think is actually a both and. 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:15.039 And there's a tension, but I think you know, it's our job to hold the tension. 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.319 And so I'll give an experience in my history. 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.559 I remember when I was in high school, right? 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:22.880 And I was pretty academic. 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.359 I was a nerd, and I grew up in a multiracial suburb of New York. 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:31.920 It's one of the few places in Long Island that are that is like legitimately multiracial. 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.519 It's a town called Long Beach. 00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.440 Most of the towns in Long Island are very segregated. 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:44.880 So Hempstead will be mainly black and Latino, and it'll be right next to Garden City, which is mainly white. 00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.599 And so I grew up in this multiracial setting. 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.799 A lot of the administrators and the teachers were white. 00:33:52.960 --> 00:34:11.360 And I remember when I said I was going to a HBCU, some of them were upset because they they argued that HBCUs were like substandard, which was just their, you know, them passing on their pathologies on to me about black institutions. 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:21.519 But then also that being in that setting won't set me up for the quote unquote real world because it was like an artificially black setting, something like that. 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:27.760 And both of those, I'm not going to get into it, but both of those ideas are deeply problematic. 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:42.000 But what would I what I would say is that one of the blessings that I got from going to college for four years in that environment of an HBCU was that it was a form of a safe space. 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.840 It was a space where just about everybody was black. 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:52.159 So race and racial difference meant something very different in that context. 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:59.440 And I wasn't, my blackness wasn't foregrounded in a in a way to show contrast. 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:00.400 We were all black. 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:12.639 We celebrated our blackness together, but it was a it was a form of a space that allowed all of us to be safer from the direct psychic violence of white supremacy. 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:21.199 Like I told you, like there were, I remember there were white teachers that I that told me that there was no way I could possibly write the things I was writing. 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.920 That was like a form of like, you know, child abuse. 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:32.159 I mean, you want to support the the academic urges of students, not somehow try to convince them that they can't do what they could do. 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:36.880 So there's so at Howard, I was protected from that. 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:47.039 And when I left Howard, it wasn't like I was able to live in the artificial environment of going to school all the time at Howard University. 00:35:47.199 --> 00:36:00.400 But when I left Howard, I felt more confident in myself to be able to engage the reality and be and be able to like deal with really intense racism when it came up because I felt a sense of confidence. 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:05.360 And so I believe that safe, quote unquote, safe spaces are very useful. 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:21.119 High bar of entry, high standard of conduct spaces, where you're self-selecting a group of people, specifically because you recognize that you are generally marginalized in broader society. 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:31.280 And you could set high bars for who's allowed in that space and very, very high high standards of conduct of what is allowed in that space. 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:36.079 And that is insufficient because we need to build a bigger we. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:41.119 So we also need low barb entry spaces. 00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.920 Those are the mass organizing spaces. 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:51.360 Those spaces are designed to ensure that our movement is irresistible, is curious, is compassionate. 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:52.880 Come one, come all. 00:36:53.599 --> 00:37:01.199 Those spaces should be prepared for and be willing to engage a lot of difference. 00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:03.519 A lot of difference. 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:12.719 And you should, if you're going to be in that space and if you're going to organize that space, it might be helpful for you to also have a safe space. 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:16.800 So you could be fully nourished and seen in all of your complexity. 00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:25.119 And you could you could anticipate likely a lot of affirmation of your values and your identity. 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:32.639 And so that you could engage in that low barb entry work where people are going to come. 00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:37.519 Like that means, like, you know, for us at Working Families Party, we're knocking on doors. 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.000 So you're knocking on somebody's door. 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:41.199 What's behind that door? 00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:42.320 I don't know. 00:37:42.559 --> 00:38:01.360 You know, but what I could anticipate is somebody who is awash in the dominant society's views of maybe the hustle culture that I talked about, or some of the race, class, and gender pathologies that are part of the dominant society's story. 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:09.199 Or that that story that we talked about, the MAGA story or the right-wing populist story. 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.840 When I knock on

the door, open, open that door, that person might share some of those things. 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.679 Most people are incoherent ideologically, right? 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.960 Most people do not have a coherent ideology. 00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:26.960 Like I nerded out a lot on all types of ideologies because that's my jam. 00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:28.480 That's not where most people are at. 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:46.079 So I should expect that some people might, when I knock on their door, they might have like, you know, right-wing conservative economic views and you know, some relatively open views about LGBTQ people, but some archaic views about race. 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:48.079 And that's the same person, right? 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:52.159 Like, you know, I should anticipate it. 00:38:52.480 --> 00:39:06.159 And if I'm doing the low bar of entry work, I should fortify myself so that when I'm exposed to these ideas, I don't feel like it's my job to quote unquote correct somebody. 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:14.239 It's my job to be curious about where they're coming from, to listen, to understand them, and to be in right relationship with them. 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:18.719 Then in the context of that relationship, we could struggle with one another. 00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:29.519 But I have to be willing to be in relationship and also understand that my development is a journey, and I'm still on that journey. 00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:32.320 Their development is a journey and they're on that journey. 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:36.000 And it's it's not my job to correct somebody. 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:44.320 It's my job to be in a journey with them, which is a different relationship when you're doing that low bar of entry work. 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:48.320 So I think it's a both and there's a role for the safe spaces. 00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:57.119 I would argue that that we desperately, urgently need to do a lot more of low bar of entry, bigger we work. 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:11.199 And we need to acculturate people to that work and to begin to be curious when we hear a difference, not feel like it's our job to correct when we hear a difference. 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:13.679 Thank you for breaking that down. 00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:20.000 That feels just a really important point around how we resource ourselves. 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:32.719 I mean, I think a lot of us do it intuitively in a way, like who you're in community with, who you bring over to your house is probably going to be different than who you might find behind a door that you randomly knock on. 00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:38.480 And getting prepared to do that is, I think, often a kind of missing place. 00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:48.320 Like, how do you emotionally or outside of that space get prepared to encounter difference in a whole lot of different ways? 00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:59.199 And knowing, having that discernment of okay, I'm experiencing this difference, but that doesn't mean that I have to have a certain kind of intimacy with this person. 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:06.400 Like there can be barriers and boundaries and a shape to our relationship that is different than other relationships in my life. 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:08.000 It feels really important. 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:23.199 I want to ask you a question that is, you know, every time I see you, when I run into you, and I've run into you over the years, you are a person that I can anticipate will be smiling when I see them. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:26.880 We'll be laughing when I see them. 00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:34.719 And I know I've heard you say in this conversation, other places, how important joy is for you. 00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:44.159 It sounds like it's almost like we say in semantics, a kind of organizing principle, something that you organize your aliveness around is joy. 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:50.239 And you wrote a piece that has joy in the title that has gotten a lot of buzz, building resilient organization. 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:54.400 I think it's toward joy and durable power in a time of crisis. 00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:00.880 The joy word is kind of, you know, it's almost unexpected in there. 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.719 I wonder just what that means for you and what that means for you as an organizer. 00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:07.599 Sure. 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:11.039 Yeah, I mean, I think about it in in a lot of ways. 00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:49.599 So I think one of the reasons why some people choose to keep their head down and stay out of other people's business, quote unquote, or uh choose to disengage from big problems that are going on in the world, or big social problems, or choose to pretend that things are too complicated for them to be able to uh place their energy there, is I think people are trying to protect themselves from experiencing the vicarious suffering of other people, right? 00:42:50.880 --> 00:43:22.239 And there's it's true that if you choose to tap in, like if you choose to use your eyes and ears and uh not shy away from take what's what's taking place in Gaza, what's taking place in Haiti or in Congo, what's taking place around you, you know, what's taking place in uh downtown San Diego or downtown San Francisco or downtown wherever you're from, uh you will perceive the human suffering that's taking place. 00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.760 But there's vicarious joy too. 00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:34.719 That if you choose to separate yourself from being connected to others, yeah, you'll protect yourself from the vicarious suffering. 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.960 But the flip side is the joy that's taking place all the time, right? 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:42.719 And you actually rob yourself from being plugged tapped into that as well. 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:50.480 When I think about joy, I think about my experience as somebody who's a person of African descent. 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:59.760 And one of the things I think is so

magical about black people in this hemisphere, every single one of us, like every single one of us, which I find distance is like. 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:01.039 It's amazing. 00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:04.960 Like, how how do we how do we not remind ourselves about this? 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:23.199 This this fact is that I may not know the exact story, but I do know that for me, I have an ancestor that was born somewhere probably in West Africa, many, many, many generations ago. 00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:31.599 And that ancestor somehow interacted with somebody that led to them being captured. 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:40.880 And they likely had to travel miles and miles and miles and miles from wherever they were at to the coast, the west coast of Africa. 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.599 And in that journey, in the capture, there were people who likely fell, who likely died. 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:51.199 And in that journey, there were there are those that they traveled with who didn't make the journey. 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:56.079 And then they likely stayed in a dungeon for some time. 00:44:56.239 --> 00:45:01.199 And in that context, in that dungeon, there were likely people who perished. 00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:14.000 But that ancestor survived and made it to the belly of a slave ship and traveled the very long, treacherous journey from someplace in West Africa to someplace in the Americas. 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:19.440 Maybe it was Brazil, maybe it was Puerto Rico, maybe it was the Carolinas. 00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.679 And many people did not make it in that trip. 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:33.519 And then they survived the seasoning, the work to attempt to transform a human being into chattel. 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:39.679 And they lived out their days likely on a plantation. 00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.400 And before they died, they met someone. 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:49.119 And in some context, they met that someone and they had a child. 00:45:49.760 --> 00:46:01.760 And it's possible that in that context they had a form of deep human connection and joy with that person under the most intolerable conditions. 00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:06.559 And that happened again and again and again and again and again. 00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:11.199 And then slavery was abolished, and then you know, through Jim Crow. 00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:13.599 And here's Prentice, here's Mo. 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.280 That's every single black human. 00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:18.880 That's every one of us. 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:28.239 No matter who you see, who's black, next time you see them, remind them of that improbable journey. 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:36.880 And that's all of us, from any person of African descent, from the southern tip of Chile all the way to Canada. 00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.159 That is our story. 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:39.519 That is our birthright. 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:43.679 So to me, that's a story of intense suffering and joy. 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:48.079 We created the blues and jazz and hip-hop. 00:46:48.239 --> 00:47:16.159 And you know, we created through the suffering this culture, we created dance, we created, and so to me, the reason why I highlight joy is that what I've noticed is that there's a way that we could allow ourselves to sit in a story of trauma and trauma only. 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:19.920 And that is a partial story, right? 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:26.400 That is a partial story, and I think there's a there is work to be done to excavate joy. 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:32.880 And it's not to exclude the trauma, it's not to exclude the suffering, but it's to create a complete story. 00:47:33.199 --> 00:48:01.679 Because I mean, like, yo, like I will go to a funeral of a loved one, and then a few hours later I'm jamming and joking and kicking it with my like is my tears and suffering on that day, am I betraying them by laughing and fellowship fellowship fellowship fellowshipping with my people? 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:02.079 Right? 00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:12.559 Am I like, am I somehow uh lying to myself by experiencing joy in one of in a dark moment, or are they are they connected? 00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:15.119 And I think there's a there's a there's a connection there. 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:21.679 And so part of me servicing joy in the context of social change is to highlight that connection. 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:29.760 And I know that the only way we could build that bigger we is by ensuring that our movements are irresistible. 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:39.119 And an irresistible movement is a joyful movement, an irresistible movement is a compassionate movement, an irresistible movement is a curious movement. 00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:53.039 And as an organizer, as somebody who's constantly trying to figure out how our ideas become the common sense, how you know, as somebody at Working Families Party, I believe that the people should govern. 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.599 So I'm I don't just want to be a protest movement. 00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:58.000 I want to be a governing movement. 00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:03.760 I'm constantly trying to figure out what is the posture that our movement needs to be in in order to achieve that. 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.599 And I believe it's a joyous posture. 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:20.400 It's not joy at the expense of our suffering, at the expense of our stories of trauma, but it's it's joy in order to fully understand the suffering and the trauma. 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:24.960 Like, you know, I I j you know how like people say white people can't dance? 00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:27.119 I have heard that. 00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:29.119 I I I disagree. 00:49:29.280 --> 00:50:00.400 I think that that is reductive, I think that that is essentialist, I philosophically disagree with that, but what I believe is at the core of that is that if you are only a consumer of a culture, then you're that allows you in the marketplace to be able to perceive

simply the things that are joyous, and to be able to disaggregate the joy from the suffering, right? 00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:10.000 So when black people engage in black culture, hip-hop, jazz, arm basically American culture is black culture, right? 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:15.840 We are simultaneously perceiving and experiencing the joy and the suffering. 00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:19.119 And so when we dance to black culture, that's what you see. 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:30.800 And when when people simply engage black culture or any culture as a consumer, then you're gonna dance to it like a consumer, right? 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:33.119 And I think that that's what people are seeing. 00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:38.800 And so the the piece around joy to me is like joy is our birthright. 00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:44.239 Joy doesn't, I'm not being liberal, like everybody should be smiling and laughing all the time. 00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.920 That's not what joy means to me. 00:50:46.159 --> 00:51:00.639 Joy means to me perceiving our capacity to find pleasure, to find laughs, to find happiness, to find desire in the midst of the suffering. 00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:04.559 That is like the human condition, and that is worth fighting for. 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:06.400 Absolutely. 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:07.679 Absolutely. 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:11.840 There's so many things about that that I want to geek out with you on one day when I see you. 00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:22.239 This improbable joy, this um having us be being able to experience our lives, the joy and the sorrow, the the beauty and the pain. 00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:30.400 That's a part of what it means for me to experience liberation, is to be liberated into my full experience as a human being. 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:32.079 And I want that for our all of us. 00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:35.679 And I'm just really grateful that I got to talk with you today. 00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:44.239 Maurice, you are a light in our movements and so grateful for everything that you offer and do and inspire in all of us. 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:44.880 So thank you. 00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:46.239 Thank you for the invitation. 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:47.840 I'll come back anytime. 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:49.440 Love that. 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.960 It's gonna get dicey out here, so we might bring you back. 00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:57.920 Mo, before we leave, are there any organizations that you want to lift up and let people know about? 00:51:58.480 --> 00:51:59.199 Well, sure. 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:04.559 I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't invite everybody to become a member of the Working Families Party. 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:14.320 And we seek to build a politics that is reflective of all of us, our identities, our joys, our suffering, all of those things. 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:23.599 And we seek to be a rebuke of the tribal politics that I talked about, so that we could build a bigger we and so that the people could govern.

00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:25.760 Like in a democracy, everyday people should govern. 00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:27.280 Like we believe that crazy idea. 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:31.679 And so I invite everybody to come and join the working families party. 00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:48.639 If you're black, I invite you to join the Movement for Black Lives, which is a very broad ecosystem of Black-led and focused organizations all around the country, uh, struggling together to try to figure out how we as Black folks could get free. 00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:57.599 If you are a worker, I invite you to join a union or organize a union in your workplace. 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:08.639 You know, we're in the midst of a moment when workers are really feeling their power from, and we've we've witnessed some very high-stakes victories for workers. 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:26.480 Just recently, Starbucks workers finally had a very significant victory where that company, after stonewalling and spending millions of dollars to be able to challenge their organizing, has agreed to come to the bargaining table with their workers, which is huge. 00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:31.119 The UAW and the Auto Strike, that was a victory. 00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:34.800 The Hollywood writers and actors, that's a victory. 00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.039 The Teamsters, that's a victory. 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:42.400 Workers coming together is to me one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. 00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:44.159 And, you know, the answer. 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:55.519 So, you know, we talked about the right-wing story, but to me, our story has always been about everyday people coming together and being reminded that we have the power, right? 00:53:55.679 --> 00:54:04.480 Like if workers decided to stop today and we had a general strike, the the entire world economy will halt. 00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:09.840 But if hedge fund managers decided to leave their jobs tomorrow, we would be fine. 00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:10.559 Right. 00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:12.960 And we should always remember that we have the power. 00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:22.239 We have the power, and we're told this lie that the power and the value of the economy comes from someplace else, other than us and our ingenuity and our passion. 00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:26.559 And coming together as workers through unions is a reminder of that. 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:34.800 Becoming the people is produced by Devin Delania. 00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:37.760 Sound engineered and edited by Michael Maine. 00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:40.639 Bobnan and Chirla is our research assistant. 00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:43.440 Our theme song was created by Miata. 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:51.599 If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe, rate, and especially please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. 00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:56.320 You can find more clips of the podcast on my Instagram at Printed Temple. 00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:03.760 And if you'd like to watch the full visual conversations and help us sustain the podcast, please join us on Patreon at Printitem. 00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:06.719 Thank you so much for listening to the community.