สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
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This is Edwin k Morris,
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and you are about to embark on the
next Pioneer Knowledge Services because
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you need to know a digital resource
for you to listen to folks share
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their experience and knowledge around
the field of knowledge management and
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non-profit work.
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If your company or organization would
like to help us continue this mission and
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sponsor one of our shows, email,
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B Y N T k@pioneerkss.org.
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We.
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Follow up with a second
segment with Nick Milton,
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and we're gonna dig a little deeper
into the I S O for knowledge management,
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find out more about the why, where,
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and how that it all
became and what it is to
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organizations today. Nick,
let's talk about this.
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When did this all start for you?
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Because you said you were part of
the planning of this whole thing.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I was part of the team that
developed the ISO standard.
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I think it goes back to,
let me see now. Is it 2014?
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I think it was.
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There was this request from
the Israelis to put a knowledge
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management standard together. Hmm. There
used to be a, although it still is,
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there's a clause in ISO 9,001,
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which requires anybody working a quality
system to manage the knowledge within
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that quality system. Hmm.
That was not a KM standard,
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that was a quality standard with
recognizing knowledge as an asset.
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But the Israelis in 2014 came up
with a request that we should have
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a similar standard for
knowledge management. And
that was for three reasons.
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Firstly, an increasing understanding
of the importance of km.
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Secondly, ambiguity in
understanding what KM actually is,
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and thirdly,
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multiple and common failures of KM
projects and initiatives because
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people were taking incomplete
approaches. You know,
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things like the technology led approach,
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which we've known for
years is not gonna work.
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Or they build a library of
everything, you know, approach,
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which we know is not gonna
work. , we thought that,
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or the Israelis thought that
if we had a helpful standard,
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it would at least point people in the
right direction and point them away from
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some of the most common pitfalls.
So once that proposal was received,
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it had to go around to all
of the ISO members. And iso,
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practically every country in the
world is, is a member of iso.
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I think it's about 180 countries.
And we got approval to go ahead.
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There were some countries were suspicious,
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Germany was not very keen on the idea,
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but they decided that if there
was going to be a standard,
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they'd like to be involved in drafting
it. Mm-hmm. , we then,
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this must now be about 2015,
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it was agreed that we'd
start work on this.
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Standard standards are written
by working groups of experts
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drawn from the member countries.
And these experts are not paid.
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They spend their time,
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they spend their travel
expenses themselves because
they think this is a worthy
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cause. Okay.
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And each of the experts reports back to a
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mirror committee in their own
organization in America, A N S I,
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in the uk it's B S I and so on. Every,
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every country's got one of
these mirror committees.
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Various levels of draft are produced
and they're cycled around these mirror
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committees for edit review and input.
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Everything is done face to face
because the main philosophy behind an
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ISO standard is that we should
have unanimous agreement. Wow.
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That sounds difficult. .
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It's, it's difficult. And there
was an awful lot of discussion.
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Yeah, I bet. Who is the ringmaster
that makes sure everybody,
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I, I just can't, even knowing the
academic frameworks that I've worked in,
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I'm like, I'm like, oh my good
gosh, are you kidding me? A hundred.
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Percent. No, it's,
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it's helped by the fact that
there is a very well-defined
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template for a, a management
system standard. Ah.
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So there's a limit to
Load full transcript
what you can
change and what you can add. Ah,
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we could modify it for
knowledge management,
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but ISO believe they know
how things work. Yeah.
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And they believe that they work
through planning, checking,
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doing acting simple P D C A model.
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So it took about three years
to write this standard. Um,
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anybody could join any
of the mirror committees.
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Anybody on the mirror committee
could join the working group.
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It's entirely voluntary. And I was
on the B SS I mirror committee,
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and I was on the ISO drafting
panel. I came to a point,
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I think it was 2017,
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where we put a committee
draft out for public review,
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and it was published on the internet,
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and we widely advertised it, and
we got lots and lots of comments.
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Some comments were very helpful, some
comments required us to change things,
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which we couldn't change. Uh, some
contradicted each other. Mm-hmm.
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. So we had to do a bit
of a juggling act. And some people,
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rather than using the comments reply form,
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sent a whole bunch
of annotated text back,
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which was very difficult to deal with. Uh,
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now really we're working through it
paragraph by paragraph and we want to say,
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what are all the comments on
this paragraph? But anyway, 2018,
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we had three days in Paris Okay.
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To take all of those comments and
come out with a final draft. And that,
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that was what we came out with.
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That was what was published as ISO 3 0
4 0 1 colon 2080. Mm-hmm. .
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Mm-hmm. , I've already
talked about the 50 something,
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54 shalls that are within the document.
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The ISO standard is a type A standard.
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So it's one that you can measure against
and it's got those requirements in it.
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For example,
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the organization shall determine external
and internal issues that are relevant
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to its purpose and that affect its ability
to achieve the intended outcomes of
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its knowledge management system. Mm-hmm.
, to meet that, you know,
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you'd have to have a list of,
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of issues that have been
analyzed and and so on.
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There are 10 sections
in the standard itself,
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plus some appendices and
plus an introduction.
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We wrote quite a long
introduction because, uh,
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knowledge management needs a little bit
of a lead in for anybody who's new to
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it. So we talked about some
of the principles mm-hmm.
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behind knowledge we
talked about mm-hmm. ,
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some of the sister disciplines that
go alongside knowledge management,
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like information management,
like records management,
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which are adjacent but not identical.
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And then within the bookends
of the introduction and,
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and the appendices is the body
of the standard itself. Okay.
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The first three sections are informative.
They have no shalls in there,
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but then you get to sections
4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,
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and they tell you what you shall
do. Firstly, you set the context,
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you determine what outcomes you want from
km you determine who the stakeholders
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are and what their interests are.
You determine what is the scope,
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both the organizational scope, but
the knowledge scope as well. Mm-hmm.
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. Mm-hmm. ,
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this is all really good stuff
that every KM project should do.
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All too often we find projects
that haven't done this
homework that have jumped
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in with, you know, we've
got this technology,
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how should we roll it out without
saying, yeah. What outcome do we want?
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And who are the stakeholders? What
do they want? Have we asked them?
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There's then a little bit about
the dimensions of the framework.
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The fact that we have to look at
codified knowledge on the one hand and un
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codified on the other.
Uh, just as a side issue,
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we didn't use the terms
explicit. And tat gonna.
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Say is, where did those
terms fall out and.
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Why? I tell you why, because
people understand them in,
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in rather different ways. Lots of people,
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about half of the people that we've
surveyed think that explicit knowledge
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is the same as documented
knowledge.
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The other half think that explicit
knowledge need not be documented,
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but it's the things that,
you know, you know, you know,
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basically you can explain, explicit
means can be explained. Mm-hmm.
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If we use the word explicit,
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half of the people are going to hear
documents and half of the people are going
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to hear, well, it could be documents,
could be in the heads. Could be. Yeah.
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So we use the terms documented and
undocumented or codified and un codified
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really, because you can store, it doesn't
have to be a document. It could be a.
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It's a smaller box. It's a smaller
definitional box. You, you can't,
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you can't get lost too much
from codified to not codified.
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Exactly. Plus it is the phase change
in how you manage the knowledge,
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because it's the point at which the
knowledge becomes decoupled from the head.
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Mm. Anything that is codified
has now left its knower. Yeah.
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And can be managed by electronic
means. Anything that's un codified,
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you've got to find the person
and talk to the person.
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Two different styles of management.
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Until we can get to the, uh, synapse, uh,
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access point to where I could
just plug in the brain and.
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Suck it. Yeah. Yeah. One day.
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.
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Not yet. So that's, that's that.
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We've got a little bit
in there about culture,
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and this is where one of
the big arguments came.
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Some people wanted a whole
explanation about how you
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should be setting in place a KM
culture. Hmm. Other people said,
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no, it's too fuzzy a term.
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So what we've ended up doing
is having one clause that says,
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you shall demonstrate how you are
addressing the cultural aspects.
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And then an appendix about ways in
which you could do that. Yeah. Yeah.
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So you're not telling people what to do,
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you're just saying you must have thought
about it and you must have documented
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it. That's.
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Probably a good way to go, because yeah.
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The trying to get a prescription for
a culture change or adaption very
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tough. Is pretty tough. Yeah. I just
ask 'cause I've got it up here too.
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'cause I'm very impressed
with the document because
I, I, for two reasons, as,
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as a kmr myself, I thought, oh my gosh,
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this is finally gonna put some
authority behind what km what I feel km
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can bring to an organization
and what it should do.
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Because the i s o for me was gonna be a
foundational thing that pivots a lot of
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people away from, oh, it's just a
fad. It's just a blah, blah, blah,
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and we're not gonna do it because it
became more substantial with the I S O.
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Yeah. Is it being adapted to,
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and I think you said in your survey
it's not really had a huge effect,
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but has it changed
anything in the market? I.
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Don't know, and I can't answer that
yet. Okay. If I do another survey,
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I think I will be able
to answer that. But I,
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I think what it does is
it changes the focus.
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KM knowledge management.
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Most of us focus on the K ISO
3 0 4 0 1 focuses on the m
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So it's approaching knowledge management
from a different direction. Okay.
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And it's that a direction
that we seldom address.
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If you go and do a Google search
for knowledge management process,
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knowledge management, technology,
knowledge management roles,
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knowledge management, governance,
you'll get loads of hits for process,
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loads of hits for technology,
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and few on roles and almost
nothing on governance. Hmm.
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ISO 3 0 4 0 1 is 70%
governance, 15% roles,
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a tiny bit on process and almost nothing
on technology because ISO is not going
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to mandate what technology you use. It
mandates the management framework Yeah.
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That you set around it. And
that's why I think, Edwin,
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I think this is revolutionary for many
people because it's bringing half of the
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phrase, bringing the management of
the phrase back into prominence.
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Do you think it ever was in prominence?
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Wasn't the management piece always kind
of the weak link in this? Yeah. Yeah.
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It was. Yes. You know, if people
write knowledge management well,
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they're generally using a 48 font for
the knowledge and a 10 font for the
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management . We're trying to just
expand that font a little bit. .
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Yeah.
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I mean, not literally. That's
hilarious. Not literally, but hilarious.
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You know, I like it.
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And then there seems to be a good focus
in this ISO about the leadership. Yeah.
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You, you say it's heavy to governance,
it's heavy to setting up the how. Yep.
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Uh, and that's been a,
a weak link, I think.
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And even in my formal education
of knowledge management
at the master's degree
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level, the how was still not clear.
Mm-hmm. , it's like, okay,
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I get it. And I I see the
vision. I see the light. Yeah.
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But I still don't understand the how,
how, how, how, how do I do all this?
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So this I s o is the how and it
should be on everybody's shelf.
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It's the how and it,
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it's the how this how starts
with the leader comes down,
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through the policy comes down,
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then through delegated authority comes
down through plans and objectives,
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resources, the resources
have to be trained.
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And then I think chapter eight is about
the operational processes that are
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applied.
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And then nine and 10 are about how you
review and improve the system going
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forward. So not only
do you define the how,
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but you define how you're going to learn
from operations and how you're going to
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improve the how. If people
follow that philosophy, it's,
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it's a much firmer way to go.
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It has always been, and I hear again, I,
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when I was so excited to hear
that this was coming out,
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because there seems to be a bit
of quicksand that most KM is
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operated on, and it's either
personality base, you know,
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somebody's a firecracker and you're doing
stuff and blah. Mm-hmm. .
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But it's always been a, in my view,
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it's been a bit of a challenge
to sustain resources for equal
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KM parts. And that's
always been a challenge.
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And this gives at least to the
operator, to the CAM operator,
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the, the owner of it in an
organization to start building a,
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a more sound foundation
for that going forward.
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And to be part of that resource poll, uh,
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at the C-suite to say, you know, Hey,
we, we need, we need this stuff because,
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so it brings a lot of weight and gravity.
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It's an unfamiliar document to,
um, many knowledge managers.
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So last year in the UK we came up with a
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second standard, which is a
guide to the ISO standard.
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It's a British standard 3 4, 4 0 1.
But I think it's useful to anybody,
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you know,
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for each of these 54 shalls to give
examples of how you might actually meet
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them, things you can think about,
things you could do. It's got no shalls,
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it's not a requirement standard,
it's an advisory standard. Hmm. I'm,
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I'm pleased with that one. Again, I
was on the drafting team for that one,
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and I think it fills a bit of a gap,
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a bit of a conceptual gap
from the knowledge management
world and the standards
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world.
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So where is the biggest payoff?
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The biggest payoff is starting your KM
program in the right way and not hitting
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one of these blind alleys.
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The biggest payoff is knowledge management
implementations that work and work in
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a sustainable way that
avoid the trap that you've,
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you've mentioned just now the trap of
personality of the charismatic leader.
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When the charismatic leader goes,
everything collapses. .
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Exactly. Not a very good
sustainment model. No.
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Or the chief executive whose,
whose baby it was, right.
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Who then leaves and nobody wants
the baby. They're like, put.
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'Em out. What's the best
advice from Nick Milton?
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For anyone that wants to
know more about knowledge
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management.
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? Well,
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this is where I plug the book that
I wrote with Patrick Lamb
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because as.
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Just by my book, and you'll have all
the answers. Is that what you're.
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Saying? In a way, because like
I said in the previous podcast,
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this is the book that I wish I'd had 20,
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30 years ago because it would've
answered all of my questions.
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We deliberately wrote it
in that format and it's,
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it's like a journey through
knowledge management.
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It's a bit light on the strategy piece
because I wrote a previous book with
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Stephanie Barnes called Designing
an Effective KM Strategy. So me,
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maybe you wanna buy that
one as well. .
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If they come armed with
the I S O in your texts,
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there should be absolutely
no reason they fail.
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There should be no reason. Absolutely.
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Okay.
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00:17:21,860 --> 00:17:25,860
Well that's all I needed to hear because
that's the first time I've ever heard
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any guarantee for, uh, kms. So
that's a helpful thing. Thank you.
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You are very welcome. You're very
welcome. The next book is going to, uh,
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be a little bit more specific about
the different context. In that one,
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you'll be able to see, okay,
I'm a kmr in in an N G O,
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what's it gonna look like for me?
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But also what does it look like in other
contexts and what can I draw from those
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other contexts?
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Well that's exciting. When's
that coming out? Next.
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Year? February maybe. All.
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Right.
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Well we will definitely have you back
on the show to talk about all of that.
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As it kicks off, what's
10 years gonna bring?
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What's 10 more years gonna bring
to the world of the formal sense
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of knowledge management?
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Is that a question ? I'm.
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Asking you. You're the co you're the
guru, you know stuff. Yeah, I, come.
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On, I don't know the future. I think it,
I can think it can go a couple of ways.
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Okay.
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I think it can continue to
be consolidated as a robust
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management discipline or I
think it can follow the various
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technological hype curves.
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And there's always that push for novelty
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in the tech world because there's
always some new technology that
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promises to completely overturn
km. Uh, first it was SharePoint,
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then it was enterprise search, then it
was, you know, knowledge engineering.
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Now it's chat G P T and these
are all focusing on the 20% of
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the knowledge that's codified and
documented. And the rest, the 80%, is.
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The 80 20 still a valid number?
I don't know. Even now I,
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I know that's been a rule of thumb, but
I don't know where it came from. So I'm.
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Just asking, I dunno where
it came from. Either.
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, I've seen it used
everywhere. So I'm just curious.
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Uh, I dunno, what would.
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You say it is now?
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What would you guess from your experience
in all these surveys and everything
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you've written and read,
what would your guess be?
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I think it depends very much on what the
sort of knowledge you're talking about.
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The sort of knowledge you're talking
about. Oh, interesting. If it's, you know,
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knowledge of the, um,
knowledge of the Crimean war,
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then all of that's documented.
If it's knowledge about how to,
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how to combat covid,
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it wasn't more than two years ago we
had zero documented knowledge. Even now,
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I'm not sure that there,
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I think there are some reports going
around in the uk there's reports still
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being created about how the
government handled Covid,
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but they will be so politically situation
that whether they'll be useful in the
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next pandemic or not, I don't
know. Mm-hmm. ,
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it depends on the knowledge. Is it
old static knowledge? Is it new?
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Continually evolving knowledge?
If it's continually evolving,
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then maybe 95% of it is in the heads.
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If it's old static knowledge,
all of it's in the books.
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You look at your context and
you decide what is the balance.
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That will vary by industry.
Um, for example, you know,
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if you're writing customer manuals for
uh, Chevrolet Jeeps, that's, you know,
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that's pretty old knowledge and
you can write that all down.
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But if you are writing
knowledge about how to build ai,
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I bet none of that's written. Alright.
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How does that feel?
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Excellent. Okay. Right. Well, I
guess we're pretty well done, aren't.
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We? Well, thanks for being here today,
Nick. It's been a very enjoyable journey.
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Thank you very much for inviting me.
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If your company or organization would
like to help us continue this mission and
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00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,200
sponsor one of our shows, email,
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00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,880
B Y N T k@pioneerks.org.
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