บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Coin Bureau’s Guy Turner Interviews Ryan & David

00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:20.400 and crypto is everything all the way to the lows of 2018, 2019 and the absolute despair. And so 52 00:04:20.400 --> 00:04:24.640 David and I were on kind of a similar question journey where we were fully bought into this crypto 53 00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:31.680 thing. And we obviously we had bags of 2017. So we're trying to figure out like, Oh my god, 54 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:37.360 are we wrong? Like, did we, did we miss something? Did we screw something up? Like, so for me, 55 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:43.040 it was just going down to base principles and trying to figure out if I was crazy or everyone 56 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:49.760 else was crazy. And so bankless really began as a quest, right? It was just a couple of investors 57 00:04:49.760 --> 00:04:55.040 on the journey to make sense out of crypto. Like, what are the use cases? What, what are blockchains 58 00:04:55.040 --> 00:05:01.600 good for? Uh, how do they actually accrue value? And so we basically open source this quest. 59 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:06.720 And it was a series of conversations between David and myself. And then we'd bring guests on 60 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:11.120 and we developed what we call the bankless thesis. Indeed, the name of the podcast is kind of 61 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:16.880 a thesis for crypto, which is what does crypto do helps us go bankless, right? We have a money 62 00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:21.520 system, an alternate money system that does not rely on central banks or commercial banks 63 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:27.760 in order to thrive. So even the name of the episode is kind of the name of the thesis is in the 64 00:05:27.760 --> 00:05:34.080 podcast format. But like one other thing I'll say is, um, I think that podcasting is a different 65 00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:40.640 medium than than YouTube. Yeah. Right. So our podcast like the reason it hasn't translated so well 66 00:05:40.640 --> 00:05:47.200 previously to YouTube is just we tend to go on for a long time, long time. It's like deep, long 67 00:05:47.200 --> 00:05:52.640 form conversation. And, um, you know, YouTube, at least my impression of YouTube, and I think 68 00:05:52.640 --> 00:05:57.200 there's some convergence, I think, uh, things change. But YouTube just like, give me the answers, 69 00:05:57.200 --> 00:06:03.280 right? I want like, I want to see 15 minutes, like articulate something and it takes David and I 70 00:06:03.280 --> 00:06:09.280 along in 15 minutes to actually, uh, go through an idea maze and talk to a guest. So that's my, 71 00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:14.800 that's why we're probably native podcasters rather than YouTubers. Yeah. Well, because I mean, 72 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:19.120 you guys have been, you guys have been working together for so, for so long now and you, you know, 73 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:23.680 you gel so well together. I think that's part of the appeal, isn't it? It's like, it's not just 74 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:28.800 two guys

who, who really care about what they're talking about and what they're into, but also just 75 00:06:29.440 --> 00:06:33.520 you know, a really sort of bounce off each other so well. I think that's why, you know, 76 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:37.760 I think that's one of the many reasons why it works, why bankless works so well as a podcast. 77 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:42.400 Yeah. I mean, you know, from my experience of it, like, from my experience of YouTube, 78 00:06:42.400 --> 00:06:46.080 because I mean, when we started, when we started Coin Bureau, you know, all those years ago, 79 00:06:46.080 --> 00:06:50.640 we had to sort of, we had to kind of figure out YouTubers, we went along and it was sort of like, 80 00:06:50.640 --> 00:06:55.200 surely, surely what people want is just like really short, like, you know, a couple of minutes. 81 00:06:55.200 --> 00:07:00.080 And then we were quite surprised when they wanted kind of turns out they wanted kind of longer 82 00:07:00.080 --> 00:07:06.560 form stuff. But it's just, it feels like a lot of the time, it feels like the sort of goalposts 83 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:10.880 are almost shifting in a way because you're sort of trying to, you're trying to find that balance. 84 00:07:10.880 --> 00:07:16.400 Like people do like longer form stuff on YouTube, but only, only up to a point and then there's a 85 00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:20.640 sort of moment where they're sort of like, no, this is enough. Like, I can't, I can't deal with this 86 00:07:21.520 --> 00:07:24.480 anymore. Yeah, I was actually going to ask you guys because I think you do this really well 87 00:07:25.200 --> 00:07:31.760 with your YouTube channel and kind of your platform. But it seems to be there can be a challenge 88 00:07:31.760 --> 00:07:38.320 with anyone who is in crypto media with presenting candy to the audience versus presenting 89 00:07:38.320 --> 00:07:42.800 vegetables, right? We like to say at bankless what we're trying to do is like healthy candy. 90 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:49.840 But like, sometimes that's difficult because if you go by attention spans or narratives, 91 00:07:49.840 --> 00:07:54.880 then you're just talking about maybe the latest meme coin. And what is the substance there? 92 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.880 Like, how does that actually help us change the world and fulfill the promise of crypto and 93 00:08:00.880 --> 00:08:06.800 actually go bankless, right? And so if you give almost like the audience just the candy, 94 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:12.000 oh, here are the 10 coins that are moaning and you need to buy right now, then I feel like you lose 95 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:17.520 the plot. But if you don't do any of that and if you're just deep into the research and you're 96 00:08:17.520 --> 00:08:22.560 talking about like ETH research posts all the time with big brain cryptographers, then you're 97 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.400 not changing the world either because you don't have an audience that actually cares about that. 98 00:08:26.400 --> 00:08:29.280 I'm curious from your perspective because you seem to balance this very well. 99 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.400 How do you like manage this? The candy versus the health foods? 100 00:08:34.400 --> 00:08:40.000 It's tricky. It's a good question. Yeah, it's that idea of calories and calories or sweeties. 101 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.520 And it's, you know, healthy calories, healthy candies, you say, it's tricky. One of the, 102 00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:51.440 I think one of the things that we found that that kind of helped us grow was that was the sort of 103 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:56.480 realization that, you know, crypto is no longer in a bubble. And I think this was coming, 104 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:02.160 this was really sort of coming out sort of 2020, 2021, I think. This realization that crypto 105 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:06.640 had evolved from just this thing that a few people were interested in and the only that kind of 106 00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:13.520 existed in and of itself. And suddenly it was much more susceptible to macro forces to it was 107 00:09:13.520 --> 00:09:19.600 a part of, you know, it was becoming a part of the kind of traditional system, which isn't, 108 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:25.360 you know, which isn't great in many ways. But that's still this kind of cold, hard facts. And I think, 109 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:31.120 I think sort of we pivoted a little bit to covering sort of more macro content as well in order 110 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:37.680 to kind of, you know, flesh out the ecosystem for those who maybe sort of had a kind of passing 111 00:09:37.680 --> 00:09:41.920 interest in crypto. But like, you know, kind of like you say, they didn't want, they didn't want to 112 00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:47.440 listen to like a deep dive into the latest EIPs or anything like that. But they're still, 113 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.800 you know, they've still got enough interest. They still want to know what's going on. 114 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:58.320 But yeah, you can't, they don't want, they don't want the hardcore tech. But it is tricky because, 115 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.120 and I think especially during kind of periods like we've, we've just come out of and I think this is 116 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:08.320 why I certainly hear, I, it's here at Coinbeer. I'm kind of getting the sense of it from you guys as 117 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:13.280 well, you know, sentiment is kind of really sort of picking up because in a bear market when things 118 00:10:13.280 --> 00:10:20.160 are really bad, it's so difficult to keep people engaged and entertained and you sort of feel like, 119 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.080 well, I should try and find some good news to cover. And then you're like, 120 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:31.920 piracy, I, you know, everything sucks. Everyone's at each other's throats and all this sort of stuff. 121 00:10:31.920 --> 00:10:37.600 It's, it can be really

difficult. So yeah, it's I guess striking that balance between what you 122 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:44.960 think your audience wants to see and what you think they should see and sort of try and give them 123 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:49.600 both because yeah, I mean, it would be very, it would be very easy to do like top 10, 124 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:55.440 top 10 meme coins for, or October. It's just like, yeah, we even, there's a little piece of 125 00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:00.640 you dies. I mean, we try to balance it out a little bit, but we will like still do a show on 126 00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:05.600 an entire EIP. Like we did a show called dank sharding and like we didn't even, no, no, 127 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:12.640 blob space, blob space, blob space. So like, but as it can't be all of our episodes, 128 00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:18.160 that's how we, we just do a portfolio, right? So you get a, some vegetables mixed in with 129 00:11:18.160 --> 00:11:22.880 everything else. I think that's where we've kind of settled is there's just an extreme amount 130 00:11:22.880 --> 00:11:29.440 of variety on bankless. So you get the one and a half hour long very technical deep dyes with 131 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:35.520 Justin Drake. And at the end of that, here, you end up saying like, I can't really regurgitate 132 00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:41.920 anything, but I still kind of got it anyways. And then they're like, that's how David and I feel. 133 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.240 And then there's like the 45 minute shorter forum episodes where we're specifically talking 134 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.760 about market movements and like kind of doing the dopamine content that everyone in crypto pays 135 00:11:53.760 --> 00:11:59.680 attention to, whether you're, you know, an adiq degen who just got in or you're Justin Drake, 136 00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:05.040 like one of these, like both everyone kind of pays attention to like market drama, no matter what, 137 00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:10.640 maybe Justin does. There's plenty of market drama. Yeah. Yeah. Always all the time in crypto. 138 00:12:10.640 --> 00:12:15.920 I would say in in the YouTube game, and this is something that we identified pretty early at 139 00:12:15.920 --> 00:12:22.080 bankless, I would say, we didn't our, our, the first podcast episodes were no video just because 140 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.000 we didn't have that set up. The technology wasn't there and we weren't very good at, like we could 141 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:29.680 have done it, but we weren't very good at it. But it was something like that you tapped on to guy 142 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:35.040 when you said just like the, the, the chemistry between mountain me and Ryan is really, really good. 143 00:12:35.040 --> 00:12:42.640 A lot of, I say like content producers as an industry, when people watch content, they kind of 144 00:12:42.640 --> 00:12:49.440 want to just catch a vibe. They want to like feel things. And one of the ways that we, me and Ryan 145 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:55.280 got traction in the early days is that we were able to articulate some of the grand visions of 146 00:12:55.280 --> 00:13:00.880 crypto in the in the grand scheme of things and the fullness of time. And you put those into words, 147 00:13:00.880 --> 00:13:05.920 but that was a, that was an articulation of the way that a lot of people felt about this industry. 148 00:13:05.920 --> 00:13:11.280 And then we're also doing it like me and Ryan lean inherently optimistic. And then we also kind of 149 00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:15.680 have this, like we think similar, similarly, so we can bounce ideas off of each other. Yeah, 150 00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:25.040 but I, David is gas and I am breaks. Yeah, we're, we're, we have the difference is in you and me, 151 00:13:25.040 --> 00:13:28.720 which is like the gas and breaks and like the, you're, you're a business background. I'm a 152 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:33.360 psych background, but these are actually complimentary, not, not like they don't conflict. And so like, 153 00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:38.800 the bankless brand just makes people like feel things at times. Sometimes negative things. 154 00:13:38.800 --> 00:13:44.960 Some people don't like that. But like the, the idea is like the, the people do feel stuff. And 155 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:49.040 like we have like leaned into that a little bit. It's not an apathetic brand. By the way, 156 00:13:49.040 --> 00:13:53.520 you could tell that David and I are still podcasters because we have these big, big acid headphones on. 157 00:13:54.160 --> 00:13:58.080 We're just talking about it. We're not, David just sent me like, I want to, I want to get the 158 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:02.320 invisible headphones. I want to get that point. You'll know that we are trying to like do more 159 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:07.040 with YouTube when we get the invisible headphones. That's, that's the moment you transition. 160 00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:12.000 The headphones come off and suddenly, suddenly you're a YouTuber and you're so good. Yeah. 161 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.440 Is it better on the other side guy? Is it better to be on the YouTube side? 162 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.720 It's okay. It's okay. It has its, it has its moments. It can, it can get a bit weird as well. 163 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:25.760 Well, you guys, you guys deal with some characters on YouTube that I just don't, I don't think 164 00:14:25.760 --> 00:14:32.000 exist in the podcast game. Like there are some absolute like crypto YouTube personalities. 165 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:39.520 I would say there's certainly. I was, yeah, it's sometimes you just find yourself kind of, 166 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:46.000 you know, it's like, what is going on? Is this real? Is this real? Am I actually, am I actually seeing 167 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:51.120 this? Am I actually, am I actually a part of this world? Yes, it would seem that I am. Good 168 00:14:51.120

--> 00:14:56.240 Lord. It's, yeah, it can be very, it can be very strange. There's, there's never a dull moment. 169 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.280 But yeah, I mean, going back to what you were saying, David, I think, you know, I think 170 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.960 the chemistry that you guys have is, is really sort of tangible. But I think like all the best 171 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:09.680 podcasts, I think when it's two people talking like, you know, you, you feel like you're in the room 172 00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:14.800 with you guys. And I think that's, but I think that's a big attraction for, for, you know, for 173 00:15:14.800 --> 00:15:20.240 people with podcasts, you know, I think most people tend to consume podcasts like, you know, when 174 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:26.000 they're, when they're kind of, you know, walking or going, you know, kind of going about their day. 175 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:30.480 And I think that's part of the joy of it because you can just sort of, you know, you can get on 176 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:35.120 with your day whilst also having, whilst also being in the company of these, of these people 177 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:42.000 talking about, you know, blob space and all this kind of weird stuff. And because I listen to you 178 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:47.040 guys on my, on my way into work, I've got one of those, I've got one of those electric scooters 179 00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:51.680 because I thought I'm gonna, I'm not gonna go down the Dubai route of buying a, buying a big 180 00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:56.800 super car and getting stuck in traffic. So I listen to you guys on my, on my scoot in and it just 181 00:15:56.800 --> 00:16:02.720 like, you know, it just makes the time go beautifully. But it's a, obviously, you know, YouTube is a kind 182 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:07.520 of, is a kind of different, different medium entirely. It takes, it takes a bit of cracking, but 183 00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:14.960 it's, yeah, it's rewarding. Come, come over to the other side and join our, we're working on it. 184 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.160 Our team is, is corralling us over there and they're doing a good job. 185 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.440 Okay, you just have to, you know, you, you have to lose it at some point and just 186 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:30.720 give over, give over to the nuttiness of it all. You'll enjoy it. I want it to, so like, like I said 187 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.640 earlier, you know, there are so many great episodes that you guys have done. I want to take you 188 00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:41.440 back in time, if I may, to sort of just over a year ago, because my, my wife Katie and I just 189 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:46.560 moved into our house here in Dubai and she'd set me the task of building the bed that we'd had 190 00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:52.560 delivered. And I noticed that there was a bankless episode on and it was the debate that you guys 191 00:16:52.560 --> 00:17:00.240 hosted between Eric Voorhees and Sam Bankman Fried. And I kind of put it on and my wife came up 192 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:06.160 about an hour later and found me, just sat on the floor, surrounded by a completely unbuilt 193 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:15.760 bed, just sort of, you know, what is happening? She was like, what, what, please tell me what is so 194 00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:21.760 fascinating that you completely fail to do this. But yeah, I mean, I remember that was such an 195 00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:26.480 incredible, an incredible episode to listen to as an incredible debate. I just wanted to, 196 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.360 I just wanted to get you guys take on it, you know, after everything that's happened, 197 00:17:29.360 --> 00:17:34.080 obviously we're talking in the wake of SBF being found guilty. He's looking at, you know, 198 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:39.840 possibly possibly a hundred years plus in jail. But looking back on that time, do you guys, 199 00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:43.920 what do you guys make of all that? I mean, I think it's, I think it's fair to say that Eric kind of 200 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:50.320 won that debate hands down. Yeah, yeah, certainly. Yeah. What did you, what did you make of it all at the 201 00:17:50.320 --> 00:17:57.120 time? Did it, did it feel as surreal as it kind of came across to listen to? Yes, definitely. And 202 00:17:57.120 --> 00:18:01.680 there's, if you go, if you look at, I mean, only we can see it because we only we have the back end 203 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:06.160 to the, to the particular episode, the analytics. But you can see the chart of viewers, concurrent 204 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.000 viewers who are watching the live stream. Like it spikes up as all live streams do. And then it 205 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.280 hovers around some flat line for a little bit. And then the debate really picks up. And you can 206 00:18:15.280 --> 00:18:20.400 see the moment when friends are texting friends or people are sending out tweets and they're like, 207 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:27.120 yo, everyone get in here and watch this. Eric is dismantling SBF. And so like it's a right 208 00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:33.840 around halfway through. And like the the viewership like triples very, very quickly. And at the same 209 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:39.120 time, like everyone talks about like, oh, this like this huge episode that the bank list did that 210 00:18:39.120 --> 00:18:46.320 you guys produced. Ryan and I stopped talking about one third of the way through the podcast. 211 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:50.800 Yeah. And like we had like a mid role sponsor break that, you know, we do for every single 212 00:18:50.800 --> 00:18:55.360 live stream. And I'm texting Ryan's like, text again, we should be doing sponsors right now, 213 00:18:55.360 --> 00:19:01.840 but like we can't end this. Like we just have to let this roll. And and so like we just went hands 214 00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:10.560 off. Like the the episode wrote

itself. It's SBF like handed Eric, his jugular and Eric was like, 215 00:19:10.560 --> 00:19:18.880 okay, thank you. And he proceeded to just dismantle SBF. Yeah, it was it was a surreal moment, 216 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:23.840 I think, for the entire industry. I think it was. And I think that this was part of the unveiling. 217 00:19:23.840 --> 00:19:30.080 So so let's remember the fast, you know, go go back in history rewind a bit further. So this 218 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:40.000 was this happened in the end of October, 2022. But if you rewind to January, 2022, the the three 219 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:47.360 smartest people in crypto were Doquan, SBF and Suzu. Okay, these were the legends. These were the 220 00:19:47.360 --> 00:19:54.240 people we put on a pedestal, right? SBF, this phenom that built a an exchange faster than Brian 221 00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:01.200 Armstrong, right? Like he was he was so big at the time. And then of course, we saw the downfall 222 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:08.240 of Doquan. We saw the downfall of Suzu, but who is still standing in October, 2022, the savior 223 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:15.760 of crypto, a sandbag been freed. And so this debate actually happened 12 days before all of the 224 00:20:15.760 --> 00:20:22.320 shit went down and everything came to light. And so we were actually, first of all, I was shocked 225 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:30.080 that he did a podcast. I don't know. I still to this day have no idea why SBF came on a podcast 226 00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:36.000 with an eight billion dollar hole on his balance sheet. That to me does not make logical sense. 227 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:43.680 That is some kind of like, SBF level hubris. Well, we didn't yet know that SBF didn't shut up. 228 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:49.440 Like he had he had just entered that arc of I do not he does not have the shut up gene. And 229 00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:54.000 I think we saw that in court. He decided to testify on his own behalf. Like he just he's got 230 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:00.000 something that most human beings don't have. And so the reason he came on was because he was 231 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:08.880 pushing for this this anti defy legislation in DC behind closed doors in a way that would 232 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:15.120 effectively pull up the ladder from the decentralized exchange front ends and accrue more power 233 00:21:15.120 --> 00:21:21.200 to his exchange. And so we were like, SBF, come on, talk to us about it, engage with us. And then 234 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:25.520 yes. And then Eric Voorhees wrote a blog post about the same issue. So we're like, you know what's 235 00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:31.440 even better than us talking to him is Voorhees talking to him. And so that was the genesis 236 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:36.640 for the conversation. But I thought it would be a bit more equal like sparring back and forth. 237 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:43.120 But at the time, the piercing moral clarity of Eric Voorhees, just to kind of like, why are we here? 238 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:48.240 Like what are we doing, Sam, juxtaposed with the kind of like, um, 239 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:55.280 compromising falsely and bargain that was SBF. It was so clear even at the time. And we didn't know 240 00:21:55.280 --> 00:22:00.320 that that he was short eight billion dollars. But we knew he was short like values. We knew he was 241 00:22:00.320 --> 00:22:06.560 short like the reason we're all in crypto. And I think Sam articulated like I am here not for 242 00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:11.040 decentralization. I'm a mercenary. I'm just going to make as much money as possible. And then I'm 243 00:22:11.040 --> 00:22:16.640 going to give it away. And I think people were okay with that until he stepped into Congress, 244 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:22.720 until he like started to play into the the regulatory arbitrage game. Anyway, I that the other 245 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.720 interesting thing about that episode, David is like when we were going through it like, uh, 246 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:32.000 SBF seemed like shaken during the time. Like if you watch like he, he was unable to articulate 247 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:36.640 in the same way that he usually is. He started to fall apart. He started to fall apart. 248 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:44.640 And, you know, if like I speak English, but I'm guessing if you didn't speak English and you 249 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:50.480 watch that episode, you would understand that it'll like yo that the Eric guy won the debate. 250 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:53.840 Like you don't have to understand the words that were said to understand that like Sam 251 00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:58.000 Bingham Free just like fell apart. I don't know. What did you think of it guys? So at the time, 252 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:02.960 of course, the entire industry didn't know that what what SBF was up to behind the scenes. But 253 00:23:03.760 --> 00:23:06.320 yeah, what did you think of that when you were trying to assemble that bad? 254 00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:17.280 It was like, you know, the more the more that it went on and the more, you know, 255 00:23:17.280 --> 00:23:22.720 because Eric just sort of killed him with logic and clarity, like you said, didn't it? It was so, 256 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:30.800 it was so clinical. It was sort of like I don't, you know, when you, you know, when you sort of 257 00:23:30.800 --> 00:23:35.600 feel like, oh, you feel on edge, even though you're even though you're completely, you know, 258 00:23:35.600 --> 00:23:40.240 in agreement with with the party that's winning, you're like Eric is absolutely right here. Like, 259 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:46.240 wow, it was still kind of, it was still sort of painful to listen to in, in, in a way, because it, 260 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:50.320 you know, even though they're even though right was winning out, it was still like this is, 261 00:23:50.320 --> 00:23:56.320 I mean, this is

kind of, this is embarrassing for for SBF, you know, this, and I guess at the same 262 00:23:56.320 --> 00:24:01.440 time, you're like, wow, hang on, this is someone who was, you know, the JP Morgan of crypto a few 263 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.280 months before that, you know, as you said, the, the, the savior of it or so we thought. 264 00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:10.720 And Guy, I'm so glad we did that episode and that it's on the record. I'm, I'm glad on 265 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.600 behalf of bankless, but I'm also glad on behalf of the crypto industry because I think after that, 266 00:24:15.600 --> 00:24:23.120 um, crypto has been painted in a such a light that it's full of SBFs and scammers and people who 267 00:24:23.120 --> 00:24:28.800 don't, you know, like, uh, take accountability for their actions, right? And indeed, we had an 268 00:24:28.800 --> 00:24:34.560 episode with, um, SBF, like, even before that in March of that year where it was just like, 269 00:24:34.560 --> 00:24:38.400 you know, we've had CZ on the podcast, we've had Brian Armstrong, we've had the Winkelvoss twins, 270 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:44.080 where you've got a big exchange. Let's talk about your vision for it, right? And so I am so glad we 271 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:51.920 had an episode pre FTX collapse where there's someone in crypto who represents like why we're here, 272 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:57.920 calling this man to task like on behalf of our industry. I feel like that is evidence we can point 273 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:02.640 to you as an industry and just be like, no, we knew something. He was not, he wasn't our guy. He was not one 274 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:12.480 of us. He wasn't us. Yeah. I think it's so important. It is, it is like, you know, people outside 275 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:17.280 of crypto think that it's, you know, the whole, the whole industry just sort of exists to scam 276 00:25:17.360 --> 00:25:21.680 people or whatever. I think it's really important to have, to have a record of that, to have a record 277 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.920 of people in the industry going, I think I'm going to say, no, what's going on here? You know, 278 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:30.880 you have to, you have to explain this. And I think, I think Eric around that time was, was talking 279 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:36.960 about this idea of having industry standards as well. Right. Um, you know, the industry itself 280 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.760 saying this is acceptable. This is not, you know, a lot of it I think was, was going to be around 281 00:25:41.760 --> 00:25:47.040 sort of exchanges and proof of reserves and, and solvency and things like that. And it was such a 282 00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:51.520 great, it was such a great conversation to have because it's like, yeah, yeah, how do we expect, 283 00:25:51.520 --> 00:25:57.600 how can we expect, uh, government agencies, you know, people who, people, for outsiders to come 284 00:25:57.600 --> 00:26:03.600

and, to come and regulate us, if we can't sort of clean out our own house, if we can't, you know, 285 00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:07.680 try and, try and draw up, try and police ourselves, try and draw up regulations for ourselves. 286 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.560 Um, and that's, yeah, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to sort of discuss that, 287 00:26:12.560 --> 00:26:16.800 that discuss that episode with you, because I think, I think it is a really sort of important 288 00:26:16.800 --> 00:26:22.880 moment in, in the history of crypto, really. It's like, you know, not only was this guy sort of 289 00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:28.080 the, the whole facade started to fall apart, but it's also like, you know, here is evidence of it. 290 00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:32.560 Here is evidence of the industry sort of, you know, policing itself to an extent. 291 00:26:32.560 --> 00:26:35.600 Well, absolutely. And I don't know if you read a post from, uh, 292 00:26:35.600 --> 00:26:40.720 Bology, Srinivasan, who, who makes this, this point. So it wasn't just that bankless episode. 293 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:45.520 It was, um, crypto media who actually like broke the story. It was like that coin desk article 294 00:26:45.520 --> 00:26:50.400 from the reporter who revealed the balance sheet. And then it was crypto Twitter that was looking 295 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.400 at kind of, oh, what's this money going on in the blockchain? Let, let's, let's, uh, 296 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:59.200 look at Alameda's accounts. Let's look at FTX's accounts and see where's the money, right? 297 00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:04.960 It was the citizen journalists. It wasn't traditional media that actually, uh, broke this and 298 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:10.240 disclosed. It certainly wasn't Gary Gensler who had multiple meetings with SBF earlier in the 299 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:16.080 year. It was really the crypto industry that revealed this. And so that's another untold story. 300 00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:21.120 And I hope, guy, I hope these stories make the, the Hollywood like movies and the documentaries. 301 00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:26.960 And when the social network comes out for crypto, I hope they, they, they, they cover it in the 302 00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:31.120 right way. But if they don't, then I think, you know, the real ones know people who are in crypto 303 00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:36.080 at that time, you know, they, they know what actually happened. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, well, 304 00:27:36.080 --> 00:27:40.800 it's so important to, to pass that lesson on, isn't it? To go look, because that's another thing 305 00:27:40.800 --> 00:27:46.080 I wanted to ask you guys just on that, on the, on the subject of that interview. So I do you, 306 00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:51.040 do you think, do you think crypto has kind of, as an industry has kind of learned its lessons 307 00:27:51.120 --> 00:27:57.200 from that whole saga? Are we, are we older and wiser? Or do you think there's

still a likelihood 308 00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:05.120 that we're, we're going to make the same mistakes again? I think this last 2022, the, the year of 309 00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:10.240 just terrible price action and blowups and fraudsters being revealed as fraudsters. That was 310 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:17.120 pretty unprecedented in crypto. Like we had some pretty undesirable behavior in the downfall of 311 00:28:17.120 --> 00:28:24.400 2018 in that same, same kind of era, but it was not at the same level of the gaping hole that 312 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:31.760 was three hours capital or the absolute just toxicity that was the dokewan army and dokewan himself 313 00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:37.920 followed by like the level of fraud in 2022 was quite unprecedented. And I think a little bit of 314 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.800 that was because there had been fraud in the industry before and no one had really gone to jail yet. 315 00:28:43.600 --> 00:28:48.960 And so it was perceived as like crypto as an industry where you could get away with fraud and 316 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:54.720 you could make billions of dollars and walk away without ever like being tried by a justice system. 317 00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:00.320 So I think 2022 was useful in the fact that like no actually if fraud is fraud no matter where you 318 00:29:00.320 --> 00:29:06.240 are or what industry that you're in. So now that we have this precedent, I'm optimistic, I'm happy 319 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:12.800 that we have that foundation to stand on. I'm also cautious about entering a bull market in which 320 00:29:12.800 --> 00:29:19.600 people's values tend to be forgotten and it is the moment. It is the time in which leaving your 321 00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:24.960 values behind is the most profitable. It's the most profitable time to do that. And so, you know, 322 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.800 crypto is more mature. If we do enter a bull market, people will do less than desirable things, 323 00:29:30.800 --> 00:29:36.480 but at least we have precedent of people, you will go to jail if you do anything significant. 324 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:46.320 So check yourself. So I'm mixed. Yeah, the way I would answer that is we will make the same mistakes 325 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:53.040 just in different ways. So I think that if you look at kind of the parallels between 326 00:29:53.120 --> 00:29:59.520 ICOs and all of these like futility tokens and all of this money that was raised in 2017, 327 00:30:00.080 --> 00:30:05.600 that was the mistake. That was the cardinal sin of the 2017 bull market. And then if you look at, 328 00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:12.560 you know, 2021, 2022, it was quite obvious at the cardinal sins were there. Algo stablecoins, 329 00:30:12.560 --> 00:30:17.920 you know, margin trades with hedge funds, you know, pumping these ecosystems that really didn't 330 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:22.640 deserve it. And ultimately, centralizing all of our private keys, right? And trusting the 331 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:28.240 block fives in the Celsius, Alex Mishinsky, God, he doesn't get enough shame. Alex Mishinsky, 332 00:30:28.800 --> 00:30:34.400 and you know, all of those people that stole our funds, we will make mistakes that are 333 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:41.200 fueled by the basic human psychology of boom bust of bubble every cycle, but we won't make 334 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:47.520 them in the exact same way. I don't think we will trust another Alex Mishinsky who's wearing a 335 00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:54.640 shirt that says don't trust banks and is himself the least trustworthy banker in existence. 336 00:30:55.760 --> 00:31:00.160 Maybe actually, maybe not in existence because he had, you know, quite a quite a list of other 337 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:05.760 untrustworthy crypto bankers at that time. But so, and in fact, Dave and I just did an episode, 338 00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:10.400 I think you listened to a guy because you mentioned this before we recorded with an investor who's 339 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:14.640 outside of crypto just to try to find kind of investor named Morgan House and wrote a book called 340 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.880 the Psychology of Money, where he's just like the reason it will never change is because human 341 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:25.200 beings don't change. We're running the same like a homo sapien software that we always have. 342 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.560 And so we're going to have these, you know, envy greed filled booms and these buss that we have 343 00:31:32.560 --> 00:31:37.200 to live with. We're going to throw the crazy wild party and everyone's going to get drunk and then 344 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.760 someone's going to have to clean up afterwards. That's just how it is. And I guess I've come to 345 00:31:41.840 --> 00:31:48.000 terms with kind of accepting that. And my belief is, and I think our hope is, and the optimist in both 346 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:54.720 David and I is like, well, the benefit at the end of this is going to be worth all of the painful, 347 00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:59.920 you know, hangovers and parties that we've had along the years because we are building an open, 348 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:05.440 permissionless money system for the world. If it was all neat and orderly, if it wasn't chaotic, 349 00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:11.760 that would be an indication that it was a centralized system. It's almost like it has to happen 350 00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:18.560 this way. If it's bottom up and decentralized, that's how you know it's new and it's a movement 351 00:32:18.560 --> 00:32:24.480 from the bottom up. Yeah, I was listening to that episode that you did with Morgan yesterday. 352 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:30.880 And can I just say to anyone watching, if you listen to anything before the pull market starts, 353 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:36.320 you should listen to to Ryan and David speaking with Morgan Houser. It was such a good episode. 354

00:32:37.120 --> 00:32:42.240 Obviously, the psychology of money is a wonderful book. And I haven't had a chance to read his 355 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:47.040 new one. That was what you were discussing, wasn't it? Same as ever. I think it was cool. Same as 356 00:32:47.040 --> 00:32:52.080 ever. And he just talks about the timeless principles of life and investing, things that don't change. 357 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:58.800 Yeah. It reminded me of something, something my grandmother used to say, she was used to say, 358 00:32:58.800 --> 00:33:07.280 if something is easily got, then it isn't worth having. And I think I really kind of felt 359 00:33:07.280 --> 00:33:12.560 that with listening to that discussion. It's like, yeah, it has to be hard. Because as you said, 360 00:33:12.560 --> 00:33:19.920 we're starting, we started from zero. We started from Satoshi started from zero 15 years ago. 361 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:24.880 And I mean, that's no time in the grand scheme of things. And we're still kind of, we're still 362 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:29.600 building. We're still making mistakes. We're still screwing up things. Some things are working. 363 00:33:29.600 --> 00:33:36.480 Some things are collapsing into dust. But that's the way it has to be. Otherwise, you don't get 364 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:43.040 progress from that. Yeah. Completely agree. I don't think there's an easy path here. The volatility 365 00:33:43.040 --> 00:33:48.720 is the price of entry. It's another thing that Morgan Housel said, if you want something to five X, 366 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:53.920 okay, the reverse of that is you have to be comfortable with an asset losing 80% of its value. 367 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.880 Like, that's kind of the trade-off that we make. And so, yeah, we don't get to have our cake and 368 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:05.680 eat it too in crypto. It can't always be infinite up. That's not how life works. Yeah. 369 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.920 Well, of course, because I mean, that was the point that was a point he made, wasn't it, about 370 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:15.200 the, you know, this idea of people years ago, sort of trying to figure out how to stop recessions. 371 00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:20.480 It's like, well, you, you can't buy if you, if you never had a recession, that would, 372 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:24.560 that would create the perfect conditions for an absolutely massive recession. 373 00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:29.920 You know, I just think I imagine how much worse our industry would actually be if we didn't 374 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:36.320 have a 2020 tail. And we still had an Algo stablecoin that was rather than 30 billion. It was now 375 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:43.680 300 billion. Okay. And then, and then actual retail, non-crypto retail got involved because 376 00:34:43.680 --> 00:34:49.040 some Fentech app started offering it. And we had Sandbake Ben Freed, who had grown to the largest 377 00:34:49.040 --> 00:34:54.800 exchange in the world with FTX. And he was, it was larger than Binance at this point in time. 378 00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:01.280 And it wasn't eight billion dollars in loss private keys. It was 50 billion dollars. 379 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:06.000 Like, and then we had Alex Mishinsky and Blockfine. All of these things were continuing to grow. 380 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:12.240 Imagine that. Like, to me, it's, uh, we dodged a bullet, honestly. It was like 2022. 381 00:35:12.240 --> 00:35:17.040 It's painful was, as it was, was the best possible thing that could have happened to crypto. 382 00:35:17.040 --> 00:35:23.840 Yeah. We did clean up all of the mess in 2022. In, in 18 months, I mean, it was one year of time 383 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:31.120 between the fall of FTX and Sam, like being charge guilty. I remember, one of the very early takes 384 00:35:31.120 --> 00:35:36.080 that I heard in the middle of, middle of 2022, I think right after the fall of FTX was from 385 00:35:36.720 --> 00:35:41.280 a friend of our pod Nick Carter. And he, he said that it was Nick Carter and Matt Walsh. And they, 386 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:45.760 they said that we're not going to be able to have a bull market until we clean up the fraudsters 387 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.680 and the scammers and we throw them in jail. And I remember listening to that take and like, 388 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:54.720 not wanting to believe it. This was like November, December of 2022, because I was like, man, 389 00:35:54.720 --> 00:36:01.600 Doquan's still out there. SPF just, we had new one, right? Like, uh, three hours capital. They're, 390 00:36:01.600 --> 00:36:05.280 they're still running free. Like, we have to, like, according to this take, we have to get every 391 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:09.760 single one in jail before we can have a bull market again. And like, it's obviously not 392 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:14.320 perfectly correlated. Like, we could find some internal, like, catalyst, like DeFi summer to have 393 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.200 a bull market, but just like the sentiment of just like, we will never be legitimized as an 394 00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:26.800 industry until we throw away the scammers and fraudsters. And then on the dot, the week that SPF 395 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:33.760 gets charged guilty, like tokens pump 50% off the ground. Like, the, the take was super prescient. 396 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:39.600 And again, correlation, not causation, et cetera. But I thought it was a, it was a great take. And 397 00:36:39.680 --> 00:36:45.840 also at the same time, we can now feel good about prices going up rather than bad. Like, I wouldn't 398 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.600 feel the same if SPF was walking free. And like, Doquan was in in jail and three hours capital 399 00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:56.160 was still being three hours capital after all of the harm and fraud that they caused. And then we 400 00:36:56.160 --> 00:37:00.960 just had another bull market with them. That

would not make me feel good. Well, I'm actually curious 401 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:05.280 from you guys. Do you, are you surprised that this is happening so soon? I mean, there's an element 402 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:10.960 of me as like, this is my third cycle here. And I'm just like, wow, we've recovered from that. 403 00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:16.800 Yeah. Yeah. And like, I do feel like that. Like you said, at some level, I'm like, it was only a 404 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:23.840 year ago. It was only a year ago when we had that conversation with SPF and so much has happened. 405 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:29.920 And now you're saying we've healed and we're back to bull market like too soon. It seems fast, 406 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:35.440 but also it's the same exact time as last cycle. I mean, time just goes faster now because we're 407 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.760 older. We've done that. We've seen this before. Okay. I know first cyclers are like, what are 408 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:43.520 you guys talking about? We went through so much pain. That was that last. That was the worst. 409 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.800 But I don't know. I'm just like, wow, that was quick. 410 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:52.000 Well, you guys were talking about this the other day, weren't you? Because you're like, there's always 411 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.560 that, there's always that thing in the back of your mind. It's like, okay, so it goes in cycles, 412 00:37:56.560 --> 00:38:00.320 but is it really going to, are we really going to have another cycle? It's just 413 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.160 just chicken. It can't be that easy. If everyone thinks it's going to go in cycle, it's not 414 00:38:04.160 --> 00:38:08.640 going to go into cycle, right? Before you cycle. Yeah. And then it's like going back to a 415 00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:12.720 more good household thing, right? If it's, if it's easy, it's not worth it doing is like, 416 00:38:12.720 --> 00:38:16.800 yeah, the four year cycles, if you, if they really play out that way, that's super easy. 417 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.800 But come on, you had to live through 2022 and 2023 wasn't great either. Like those weren't, 418 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.720 that was hard. That was hard. That was hard. That was hard. That was hard. You guys earned it. 419 00:38:26.720 --> 00:38:31.360 Hey, if you're still listening to coin bureau, if you're still listening to bank lists, 420 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:36.640 it's likely where you live through all of that. And I feel like you have, you've got veteran 421 00:38:36.640 --> 00:38:42.320 status now. All right. You were going to be the OG for future generations of crypto. I mean, 422 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:47.200 we are still like, you know, one fifth of the US owns crypto. We are still on the early side. 423 00:38:47.680 --> 00:38:52.640 Barely anyone's using DeFi and actually has possession of their own, you know, 424 00:38:52.640 --> 00:38:56.640 private keys and is actually

bank lists. We're still very early. I couldn't agree more. 425 00:38:56.640 --> 00:39:02.880 I couldn't agree more. And it's, yeah, it's like that OG status is kind of hard earned, 426 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:08.320 isn't it? You really have to, you really have to walk through the fire to get that. And I mean, 427 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:12.720 I guess you look back to some of the, some of the true OG, like Eric Voorhees, who was there, 428 00:39:12.720 --> 00:39:16.720 sort of almost at the beginning and went through Mount Gox and went through, you know, 429 00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:21.360 all that sort of stuff. It's like these guys have, these guys have earned a right to have an 430 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:28.000 opinion for, by, you know, by through years of just kind of putting up with, I guess what might 431 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.560 be turned, you know, even worse back in the day, like Mount Gox was sort of almost terminal, 432 00:39:32.560 --> 00:39:37.200 wasn't it? I remember getting into crypto about that time. I heard about crypto sort of 433 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:44.080 late 2013. And then I think it was sort of early 2014 when Mount Gox started crumble. I was like, 434 00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:45.600 whoa, this 435 00:39:48.640 --> 00:39:55.200 hang on a sec. And then it survived. And I was like, okay, wow, this is, this is more resilient than 436 00:39:55.200 --> 00:40:01.200 I thought. That was a moment for me. But like, to have been someone in it, you know, invested in 437 00:40:01.200 --> 00:40:06.960 it. Or like I speak to a lot of people who had, who had money on Mount Gox. And they were just like, 438 00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:11.200 yeah, I remember trying to do that. I remember trying to get it off. It was, I remember just like, 439 00:40:11.200 --> 00:40:16.240 like trying to email Mark Carpellis directly. And it was like, it was, it was pretty wild. 440 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:23.120 You guys have earned it. Yeah. And we've come such a lot. I mean, that was a magic, 441 00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:31.680 the gathering, like, a card changing trading exchange that converted to a crypto exchange. 442 00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:35.360 You know, it's like, we have come so far since then. We have real companies here. 443 00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:38.960 You know, like, it's 10 years. I mean, it's not a long time. 444 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:45.280 No. We have, yeah, we have real companies. We have, we have, we, we will have ETFs before 445 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:51.280 two longs. It's, it's crazy to think. And touching on, touching on the ETFs, I obviously, 446 00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:57.680 you guys are not, not in tight, not solely focused on Ethereum. But, you know, Ethereum is, 447 00:40:57.680 --> 00:41:04.240 it is kind of a large part of bankless's focus. So can I just get your, get your take on, 448 00:41:04.240 --> 00:41:10.960 on where Ethereum is at the moment? Obviously, it's been kind of in Bitcoin shadow a lot recently. 449 00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:16.800 Network activity has been down, you know, ethwent inflationary for a bit again. There's kind 450 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:21.520 of a lot of fudge flying around about Ethereum, which I think is sort of always the case. 451 00:41:22.080 --> 00:41:27.600 I don't think that's necessarily anything new. And then, of course, suddenly, we're now talking 452 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:34.080 about Ethereum ETFs as well. So yeah, I just, I just wanted to get your guys take on it. You know, 453 00:41:34.080 --> 00:41:39.440 is he, has Ethereum still got kind of quite a lot of work to do before it can really join the 454 00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:47.920 party or are you sort of more optimistic? Are you ready to cope, David? Yeah, like you said, 455 00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:54.960 like Ethereum always kind of occupies this uncanny space in which it never really seems to be 456 00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:04.960 popular. I think from January of 2021 to like May of 2021, Ethereum was like invogue. 457 00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:09.120 For the moment of time in which I thought, okay, finally, like it's getting the recognition 458 00:42:09.120 --> 00:42:14.320 it's deserved, like DeFi is now being recognized, NFTs are now being recognized finally. And then 459 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:18.800 people just went down the market cap stack until like, washine your objects, right? And this is 460 00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:26.080 where like the whole sole Luna Avax like trade came, came about and was like, oh, let's 461 00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:32.720 find the even shinier object than Ethereum. And like Ethereum's roadmap and what it wants to do is 462 00:42:32.720 --> 00:42:41.600 so incredibly ambitious and multifaceted that it like not most people don't have the whole 463 00:42:41.600 --> 00:42:47.120 entire scope of it able to like be realized inside of their brains. Like it takes a lot and a lot 464 00:42:47.120 --> 00:42:52.960 of knowledge and a lot of appreciation for the many, many, many moving parts of Ethereum to really 465 00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:58.640 understand the grand vision of the whole entire thing. And then also at the same time, 466 00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:05.920 Ethereum's market cap is big. It's $300 billion right now, $250 billion. And so it's not, 467 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:11.200 it's not a penny stock anymore. And so when so much of crypto is kind of like the crap stable 468 00:43:11.200 --> 00:43:16.000 and rolling at the dice and like trying to, trying to get the 10 X, the 100 X quickly, 469 00:43:16.080 --> 00:43:22.080 like Ethereum doesn't really occupy that space. And so it's always there's that one meme of the 470 00:43:22.080 --> 00:43:27.840 like the guy up against the wall. And there's like 50 swords pointed at him. That's always kind of 471 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:32.480 felt like a theory. You know what movies that from that's from David? It's like a pace. Yeah. Yeah. 472 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:34.480 Tangled. Tangled. Tangled.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 473 00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:40.960 Yeah. Tangled. All right. Fun fact. Yeah. And so like Ethereum occupies the space where yeah, 474 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:47.360 it's getting the ether ETF because of its size. But then also just the ambitiousness of the 475 00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:52.880 roadmap is too long to be realized and catch that dopamine hit of people in the short-term 476 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:57.200 investing cycle that has a bull market to be interested in that. So it's just always occupying 477 00:43:57.200 --> 00:44:06.800 this like uncanny valley of just like it's too big to be a fun speculative bet. And it's moving 478 00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:14.000 too slowly in its roadmap to satisfy a lot of the now now now investors. So I guess that's good 479 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:22.880 cope, David. Good. Thanks. Here's my cope on it. So first of all, I think things in Ethereum are 480 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:29.520 going just fine. Yeah. Like I think it is executing incredibly well from a fundamentals perspective. 481 00:44:29.520 --> 00:44:36.240 And you just look at the growth of layer two's. And also it's doing pretty well from an institutional 482 00:44:36.240 --> 00:44:42.560 narrative perspective. There will probably be two ETFs that we get this bull cycle season. 483 00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:48.640 One of them, sorry, XRP lovers. It's not going to be XRP. Unfortunately, that was fake news. 484 00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:54.400 But it's going to be Bitcoin and ether. And those are the two ones that I think will get institutional 485 00:44:54.400 --> 00:45:01.920 capital attention. But what I think is going on is this reminds me a lot of 2020. And if you remember 486 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:08.400 2020. So this was like when we were just starting to recover post COVID, it was about this time 487 00:45:09.120 --> 00:45:16.240 back in 2020. And the things that were pumping were smaller cap DeFi tokens and Bitcoin, 488 00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:24.320 not Ethereum. And so there was very much this narrative of you Ethereum is just a gas token. 489 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:29.280 It's just for payment only. What does it really do? You you want to own a store of value, 490 00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:33.520 which is Bitcoin. You want to own your money. And then you want all of these DeFi tokens, 491 00:45:33.520 --> 00:45:37.840 which gives you exposure to the DeFi economy, the neo banking system. And that's all you need. 492 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:43.440 And as David was saying, like Ethereum in that world and that narrative world just gets left behind. 493 00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:49.760 It's, you know, the stepchild that no one loves, right? It's just like not even part of the 494 00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:54.640 the appetite in that kind of world. I think something similar is playing out right now. But it's not 495 00:45:55.200 --> 00:46:04.880 DeFi tokens. It is Bitcoin and all of these very fast alternative layer ones. And so what's 496 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:10.640 interesting to me is actually what happened in the aftermath of 2020. Because any time price runs 497 00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:15.520 up, like so high, remember what we're actually doing. Of course, there's there's the narrative 498 00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:20.160 reason it pumps. But if you still believe in fundamentals and you know, I might be one of the last 499 00:46:20.160 --> 00:46:25.600 guys in crypto still that believes in long term fundamentals. Okay. But if you think that the 500 00:46:25.600 --> 00:46:31.280 world of fundamentals is a real world and that narratives are shorter term, but fundamentals are 501 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:36.720 the things that last what happened with DeFi tokens is they pulled forward a whole bunch of 502 00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:43.600 future expectations. And I'll admit, I got caught up in it too. The thesis for DeFi tokens in 2020 503 00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:50.400 was that these governance tokens would pivot into like governance would vote in profit share 504 00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:55.520 essentially so that you'd have on chain revenue and on chain profit associated with these DeFi 505 00:46:55.520 --> 00:47:00.560 tokens. And so what happened? The massive run up. The whole market realized that this would be 506 00:47:00.560 --> 00:47:07.520 huge. And so DeFi tokens absolutely went on a tear. And all of these these future expectations 507 00:47:07.520 --> 00:47:12.960 hopes were pulled into the present. Okay. What has happened since then? It's been completely flat. 508 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:19.040 Three year bear market in DeFi tokens. And let's talk about the reality. Very few DeFi tokens 509 00:47:19.040 --> 00:47:24.400 are more than governance tokens today. Okay. Very few of them actually pay back token holders 510 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:30.160 with on chain profits. Very few of them have actual solid fundamentals. So a lot of the expectations 511 00:47:30.160 --> 00:47:36.000 that was pulled forward at that time turned out to not be true. And I worry a little bit about this 512 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:42.640 alternative layer one run up, right? Because I don't know that a block space is as valuable 513 00:47:42.640 --> 00:47:47.760 as people think it is. Or at least what's happening is a lot of future expectations are being pulled 514 00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:54.880 to the present. And I don't know that these tokens and assets will be able to sustain that over 515 00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:02.000 like the one to three period of time. So I don't know. Maybe none of that matters. And by the way, 516 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:07.280 if you're a narrative investor or if you're a trader, it honestly doesn't matter. It totally 517 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:12.720 doesn't matter. You should go chase these things and do well. Like God bless. Like that's a character 518 00:48:12.720 --> 00:48:17.840 class that you're choosing. So like just kill it. Crush it. I hope you crush it. But if you're 519

00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:22.880 a fundamentals investor, then you're looking around and you're kind of scratching your head 520 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:27.280 and you're wondering, well, like I'm not seeing on chain activity yet that matches this. 521 00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:33.680 I'm not seeing like total value locked increase. I'm seeing a lot of hopes and expectations 522 00:48:33.680 --> 00:48:39.520 being pulled forward. And maybe those expectations come true. But if they don't, we're looking at a 523 00:48:39.520 --> 00:48:47.600 pretty flat asset class after after the bull run. So that's my cope. And I do think I do think 524 00:48:47.600 --> 00:48:53.120 ether will have its time. Like just like in, you know, it happened actually around this time in 525 00:48:53.120 --> 00:49:00.000 2020. December 2020, ether had an absolute massive run up and people woke up to it. And it 526 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:07.440 did pretty well. I think that will also happen this bull cycle. Yeah. I think you're right. I 527 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:13.680 think and I guess this idea of narratives is it's kind of so much easier to buy into, isn't it? 528 00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:17.840 It's like the alternative layer one narrative. It's like always a layer one, but it's faster than 529 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:23.280 Ethereum. That's easy to understand. Whereas kind of to go back to what you were saying, David, 530 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:27.840 you know, Ethereum is just so sprawling, isn't it? There's so much happening on it. You know, 531 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:32.640 there's a whole, there's a whole layer two ecosystem on it. As you said, there's however many 532 00:49:32.640 --> 00:49:38.480 EIPs being worked on. There's, there's things like blob space and dank shard in going on. 533 00:49:40.240 --> 00:49:45.120 It's kind of difficult to get your head around. You're just like, yeah, fast, you know, 534 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.720 faster layer one is a lot easier to understand. You know, that's why not just go for that. 535 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:58.960 Ethereum has its roll up centric roadmap, right? And so this Ethereum growth strategy is not to hold 536 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:04.640 growth internally into its layer one. It's allowed, it's supposed to allow room for its layer 537 00:50:04.640 --> 00:50:11.440 twos to like take the baton and run with it the rest of the way. So when it comes time to be 538 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:17.040 narrative season and no one cares about fundamentals anymore, now it's like the Ethereum layer one 539 00:50:17.040 --> 00:50:23.680 versus Salana, which has the stronger narrative. And Ethereum has sharded its narrative into the 540 00:50:23.680 --> 00:50:31.920 Ethereum layer one, optimism, polygon, arbitrum, ZK sync, you know, pick your next layer two, 541 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:37.280 pick your next layer two as tech, like pick your next layer two. And so like it's Ethereum and one 542 00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:42.640 of the reasons

why I find so much resonance with Ethereum is it's it's a pluralist system. 543 00:50:42.640 --> 00:50:49.440 It's trying to make room for as many diversity of chains spawn out of its core base so that every 544 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:54.880 single chain has its own flavor, its own autonomy, its own ecosystem, its own throughput. And when 545 00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:00.400 it comes time to be narrative season, Ethereum has actually given giving its narrative power 546 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:06.160 away to its layer twos. And so they all have a smaller share of this grander Ethereum vision, 547 00:51:06.160 --> 00:51:11.120 but it's never contained inside of one container. And so when you have like the Alt layer one 548 00:51:11.120 --> 00:51:16.160 versus Ethereum narrative season, well, Ethereum gave up some of that power to its layer. 549 00:51:16.160 --> 00:51:20.720 It's funny, though, as I'm listening to you talk, David, it's like, you know, just to play devil's 550 00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:26.400 advocate. And I'm spinning a narrative right now. Right? Yeah, yeah. One man's narrative season 551 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:30.880 is another man's like a fundamental season. Look, the fundamentals are finally showing up. 552 00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:35.440 So I can I can hear somebody in the listing to this in the Salona community listening to these 553 00:51:36.080 --> 00:51:40.080 old coping Eathmaxies drone on of which, by the way, we're not Eathmaxies. That's 554 00:51:40.560 --> 00:51:48.000 I'm also not coping. I don't know. No, fantastic. Everybody like I hope you make insane profits 555 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.440 during during this cycle, but somebody's listing that and they're like, David, you're absolutely 556 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:58.160 wrong. This is actually the fundamentals catching up. Okay. Sure. So this is like finally the market 557 00:51:58.160 --> 00:52:08.080 has woken up to high TPS integrated blockchain block space. And like now the it's no longer 558 00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:12.880 narrative. It's fundamentals that are actually catching up. So that's why it's very hard to 559 00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:16.720 parse, right? And you only know who's right in the long run in the very long run. 560 00:52:16.720 --> 00:52:22.560 Well, we do know as the bull market continues, real fundamentals do get thrown out the door. 561 00:52:22.640 --> 00:52:30.320 Sure. Everyone was like, oh, like Tara Luna has solves alchemy at the top of last market. 562 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:34.800 The new central bank. Yeah. Yeah. By Jerome Powell. We don't need you anymore. 563 00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:41.760 Yeah. But it is, I mean, yeah, but I suppose from the perspective of someone new to crypto, 564 00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:46.880 you know, there's just is so much easier to buy into a relatively simple narrative, isn't it? 565 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:53.040 Probably way more profitable guy. Probably on the upside, on the upside, on the downside. 566 00:52:53.040 --> 00:52:57.040 Well, when it's no longer narrative season, and you've been buying narratives all year, 567 00:52:57.040 --> 00:53:00.880 all of a sudden you're on the other end of the trade. Yeah. But then on the downside, 568 00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:07.360 you just trade to Staples, David. Again, this is why this is why if you got to choose your character. 569 00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:11.680 There's one thing we say on bank lists is know who you are. Choose your character class. Like you're 570 00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:16.720 entering an RPG, you know, you're playing Diablo. Are you a sorcerer? Are you Necromancer? 571 00:53:16.720 --> 00:53:20.240 Are you a barbarian? Like, what's your skill tree? What's your attribute? Like, what are you going 572 00:53:20.240 --> 00:53:25.920 to do? Are you a trader? Are you a long-term investor? Buy and hold? I'm a bard out there finding art. 573 00:53:26.720 --> 00:53:33.040 David's a bard. Is that a mix of things? No, I don't do anything. It's just a guy with a guitar 574 00:53:33.040 --> 00:53:38.240 who like sings stuff and like cheers on everyone else. Well, you guys are just happy. The bard 575 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:40.800 may not accomplish much, but at least the bard is happy, David. 576 00:53:43.680 --> 00:53:50.560 The bard is recording it all for posterity. Right. There you go. Yeah. The songs that we'll 577 00:53:50.560 --> 00:53:56.560 be sung in the future about all the the the the the the generic characters and they're asking 578 00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:03.200 yeah, it's it is funny to talk to people. I spoke to my I spoke to my brother-in-law the other day 579 00:54:03.200 --> 00:54:09.040 who's one of the biggest DJs that I know and he was just like describing you know how he's how 580 00:54:09.040 --> 00:54:14.480 he's allocated and he's like it's a it's a pretty fine balance, but so long as everything stays 581 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:20.720 reasonably okay, it should be fine. It's like just made me really stressed just thinking about it, 582 00:54:20.720 --> 00:54:24.800 but like yeah, everyone has their everyone has their their sort of way of doing it. It's one of 583 00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:29.680 the beautiful things about about this about this industry, isn't it? You can like you guys say, 584 00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:37.120 adopt your character. You go for it. And yeah, the rewards are amazing. The downside is 585 00:54:37.120 --> 00:54:41.680 is pretty painful, but it's a heck of a ride. I think your character class can change cycle 586 00:54:41.680 --> 00:54:47.280 to cycle. Like probably both David and myself were a bit more degen in our in our younger days 587 00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:54.160 and David is even more degen than me, right? And so on the degen scale, I'm not degen, 588 00:54:54.640 --> 00:55:01.040 but like yeah, Ryan, yes. Yeah, so so as you kind of like your life circumstances change, 589 00:55:01.040 --> 00:55:05.440 you've been through more cycles, you just

you tend to get a bit more, you know, 590 00:55:06.080 --> 00:55:10.720 grandpa wisdom, which I guess is what I at least offer the podcast. 591 00:55:10.720 --> 00:55:16.000 And I wanted to ask you as well, like I listened to I listened to your bankless takes episode 592 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:20.080 the other week, which I which I loved because it sounded like you guys were sort of really 593 00:55:20.240 --> 00:55:26.480 really kind of letting off steam. I think you'd had some sort of interactions with the Solana 594 00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:33.520 community and you know, it all been it had been a kind of fascinating week. But I wanted to ask you 595 00:55:33.520 --> 00:55:39.760 like, do you find do you find all that kind of I think we'd call it shit houseery in in in the UK, 596 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:45.520 but all that kind of mud slinging that goes on all the chaos of crypto Twitter. Do you do you secretly 597 00:55:45.520 --> 00:55:50.000 love all of that or do you think it's do you think it's more something that we could probably do 598 00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:55.840 without and we'd all be a bit we'd all be a bit happier and a bit richer. I mean, it's hard for me 599 00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:05.200 to know how much of this is crypto specific versus more a symptom of social media and kind of 600 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:14.640 the algorithms and like the the different rewards that and like dopamine rewards and the different 601 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:20.960 kind of incentives that that rest behind different influencers. And because I don't I don't know 602 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:28.960 guy that any other area is that much different. Like if you go look at like politics, social 603 00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:36.560 media or politics, Twitter, I mean shit housery that's a good term for that too. Go look at like 604 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:44.240 even AI, which is kind of like, you know, very technical. It's it's much of that. So the way we 605 00:56:44.240 --> 00:56:50.480 I've been thinking about social media recently is Sam Harris is another podcaster kind of describes 606 00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:57.520 it as a fun house distortion of reality. So you see all of the other humans interacting and not 607 00:56:57.520 --> 00:57:03.360 as they really are in person. It's not their true character. It's just this worked view of who they 608 00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:10.240 are and they see you the same way. And so I'm convinced that a lot of the people who get in these 609 00:57:10.240 --> 00:57:15.520 shit fest Twitter battles. Actually, if they had a conversation with one another and you remove 610 00:57:15.520 --> 00:57:20.480 them from the gladiatorial arena of social media and they weren't they didn't have an audience, 611 00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:24.960 they weren't trying to impress each other. And you just brought them together for a conversation. 612 00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:30.560 They would speak to each other like real humans like real like real adults

with empathy with kind 613 00:57:30.560 --> 00:57:36.800 of a mutual sense of understanding the way we're talking to each other right now guy. And you'd 614 00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:43.040 remove all of that. So part of me wonders how much of it is the medium. There's another element 615 00:57:43.040 --> 00:57:50.960 that is like crypto has a scoreboard. There's a top 100 market cap fortunes are made and lost. 616 00:57:51.680 --> 00:57:59.680 There is actual economic value in propaganda that can be extracted fairly immediately. There are 617 00:57:59.680 --> 00:58:09.040 a lot of scams. A lot of people got totally wrecked in 2021 and 2022 and they don't trust anybody 618 00:58:09.040 --> 00:58:15.440 and are pushing like out those feelings of distrust online. So part of it's a symptom that is 619 00:58:16.160 --> 00:58:22.640 relevant to crypto. But I don't know I like I find it kind of exhausting sometimes. And the best 620 00:58:22.720 --> 00:58:30.160 thing I can do during those times is like just turn it off like I you know it's hard when you're in 621 00:58:30.160 --> 00:58:35.840 kind of like media right because then you lose your source of information but change the way 622 00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:41.440 you're interacting you know ignore things mute if you have to set your profile on private for 623 00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:47.360 for a period of time whatever you need to do to kind of play the marathon. And it's similar to like 624 00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:52.880 playing the marathon with your investing right it's just rather than a financial volatility 625 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:58.080 with with social media engagement you have to get used to kind of like the emotional volatility 626 00:58:58.080 --> 00:59:03.280 of like one week everyone hates you. And then you're the next week you're like a god you know 627 00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:12.160 that's just how it goes at least that's how I've experienced it. Yeah yeah it shows how badly I'm 628 00:59:12.160 --> 00:59:18.000 in the bubble doesn't it that I you know it's just oh crypto twitter is sort of my my experience 629 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:22.800 of social media but yeah you're absolutely right I mean there's all these other all these other 630 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:27.680 every I guess everywhere has its own you know sort of social media gathering that's probably 631 00:59:27.680 --> 00:59:33.040 you know good chances even more toxic than than some of the stuff you get with you get with crypto 632 00:59:33.040 --> 00:59:38.080 but it is it is lovely when you meet people in the flesh isn't it when you go to a when you go 633 00:59:38.080 --> 00:59:42.880 to a conference and people come up and are just you know all they want to do is just talk about crypto 634 00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:49.040 and you in I remember sort of the first time first couple of times I went to actual sort of live 635 00:59:49.040 --> 00:59:54.960 crypto events I was like am I going to get people come up and and and just

scream at me be like 636 00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:01.440 it all over this project in that you know how day and and no one did it you know everyone who came 637 01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:05.120 up and said hello is like I really I really enjoy watching your videos things you know it's great 638 01:00:05.120 --> 01:00:10.240 and then and then just talk about crypto it was it was an amazing feeling but I was so nervous 639 01:00:10.240 --> 01:00:14.880 before I went there because I was like what yeah this is Mike I that's been my experience and 640 01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:21.280 the few times I do get out but this is why my co-host David is just basically addicted to in real life 641 01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:26.800 crypto meetups and conferences I don't know you must go to like a dozen or so a year so because 642 01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:34.560 it's it's exactly it's refreshing to the soul very much people are actually reasonable like nice 643 01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:41.600 pleasant to talk to and passionate and a very similar I think that that's the thing about crypto 644 01:00:41.600 --> 01:00:48.080 is what I would say is for all of our differences there is a common core set of values that that 645 01:00:48.080 --> 01:00:54.160 we all you believe so you might believe in a you know a high transaction throughput integrated 646 01:00:54.160 --> 01:01:00.800 blockchain versus the modular vision right or you might believe in like Bitcoin over Ethereum 647 01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:05.600 as your store value or whatever vice versa right but the thing that we all believe is that 648 01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:14.080 it is a fundamental economic freedom and good for the world to hold your own private keys right 649 01:01:14.080 --> 01:01:20.960 for an individual to essentially be able to act without a bank account and to have possession of 650 01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:27.440 that we all believe in kind of a censorship resistant a global platform for the world we all 651 01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:33.360 believe in what we're trying to achieve here which is bank the unbanked and unbanked the banked 652 01:01:33.360 --> 01:01:39.840 so we don't have to go through centralized intermediaries and at the end of the day I think we don't 653 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:46.960 probably as crypto unify on on those core values enough but they are there and you see them in particular 654 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:54.080 when we're under attack I think that that kind of comes out it's one thing that in the in the US 655 01:01:54.080 --> 01:02:02.320 the IRS is coming out with some very anti defi anti crypto legislation we just got 120,000 656 01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:10.560 comments from the crypto community responding to the IRS comment right I mean the crypto community 657 01:02:10.560 --> 01:02:15.600 does respond and is alive and well when it's under attack and and unifies in those ways and I 658 01:02:15.600 --> 01:02:22.480 think that gives me hope yeah yeah beautifully put Ryan beautifully put

yeah it's some it's 659 01:02:22.560 --> 01:02:28.800 we're all we're all going the destination is the same we're just all kind of going there via 660 01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:34.480 different paths sometimes sometimes radically different paths but we yeah there's kind of more 661 01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:40.320 that you unite us than divides us I think at the end of the day I just there was one more thing I 662 01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:46.800 wanted to ask you Ryan because you've spoken to like every time every time I'm you know researching 663 01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:52.560 something and I want to you know I want to get I'm researching a particular person in crypto 664 01:02:53.600 --> 01:02:58.480 I always try and listen to interviews of them and every time you guys have spoken to them already 665 01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:02.960 it's like wow just I'll just go to the bankless episode I mean they just in the past sort of few 666 01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:09.600 months you've spoken to you've spoken to like Arthur Hayes, Lynn Alden, Sergin Nazarov, Vitalik, CZ you 667 01:03:09.600 --> 01:03:16.480 know kind of everyone who's everyone in in crypto and I wanted to ask you is is there anyone in particular 668 01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:22.480 on your kind of wish list for future interviews and and who was the most sort of who was the most 669 01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:30.080 kind of surprise it who surprised you the most or who was kind of like the most the most unpredictable 670 01:03:30.080 --> 01:03:37.440 off stage perhaps well I would say on the wish list we've for a very long time had actually Elon 671 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:44.320 Musk on on the wish list as somebody who would be just a fascinating discussion like he talks about 672 01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:52.000 crypto so much but it's not it's not clear how deep he is in it and then there's also the AI 673 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:59.280 angle that kind of thing so that would be probably close to the top of our list as far as big like 674 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:07.120 biggest guest that was most surprising Mark Cuban you know kind of a celebrity wealthy individual in 675 01:04:07.120 --> 01:04:14.240 the US he came on the podcast in the very early days for bankless and it was an absolute shock 676 01:04:14.240 --> 01:04:20.880 to David and myself that number one he was in crypto and like using defi protocols like he could 677 01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:29.200 talk about AVE he could talk about compound he could talk about solidity yeah and the fact that 678 01:04:29.200 --> 01:04:35.360 he was willing to come on a you know crypto podcast at that time so that was incredibly surprising 679 01:04:35.440 --> 01:04:44.640 I don't know guy asked David who is the the like most surprising guest off camera that we've had 680 01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:50.560 maybe while you think about that I'll just say the person that is exactly the same way off camera 681 01:04:50.560 --> 01:04:57.840 on camera no matter what is a Vitalik buterin yeah like I um you know I we David and I've talked about 682 01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:01.200 you know you've never met Vitalik off camera not not in person but off camera 683 01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:07.360 and and I and I meet everyone through you David didn't you know everyone you've met I've also met 684 01:05:07.360 --> 01:05:14.160 um so yeah I just you know it would be top top three betrayals for me if if it turned out that 685 01:05:14.160 --> 01:05:19.920 Vitalik was not who he actually purports to be and and seems to be but I think that he actually 686 01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:26.160 is like I think that he's actually a fantastic person and he is he's the same both off camera and 687 01:05:26.160 --> 01:05:30.960 on camera I don't know David would you add any surprises weirdest guest experiences anything like 688 01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:41.040 this um I think we do a pretty good job of kind of vetting guests so that the weird we don't invite 689 01:05:41.040 --> 01:05:47.440 the weird ones on there was one episode that we did in the height of the bull market last year 690 01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:52.720 where we we had we were just getting flamed by all these other communities but like why won't you 691 01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:56.800 you guys are just dumb east maxes you guys only talk about ethereum why aren't you talking about 692 01:05:56.800 --> 01:06:04.240 other ecosystems talk about salana talk about taraluna talk about uh avalanche and so we were like 693 01:06:04.240 --> 01:06:10.800 you know effort we'll just do all of them at once and so we invited emin dokwan and uh and 694 01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:16.800 and a toly on a show just for one single podcast put them all together uh that show was also a mess 695 01:06:17.600 --> 01:06:23.360 at the end of that show I like very much realized that like dokwan's kind of an ass hat 696 01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:27.520 I would never really be friends with emin but and a toly I'll totally get a beer with 697 01:06:27.520 --> 01:06:32.080 and then like interestingly enough it's like salana that is the ecosystem that you know 698 01:06:32.080 --> 01:06:36.000 figures out how to survive through the bear market and attract a real community and I don't 699 01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:40.400 think that there's a coincidence there well there you go that's the alpha so invest in the founders 700 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:44.320 you get a beer with uh you get the founders you get a beer with that's what we're running the show 701 01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:51.200 it doesn't drink beer but uh he's a he'll drink green tea but why why didn't gree tea that's 702 01:06:51.200 --> 01:06:56.720 he only did that once that's not a thing that invest in something where you can have a carrot 703 01:06:56.720 --> 01:07:03.680 juice with the founder yeah right exactly much more wholesome I'm I mean I'm reassured to hear 704 01:07:03.680 --> 01:07:08.080 metallics like that because I think if you know if that was an act that

would be that I mean 705 01:07:08.160 --> 01:07:12.240 it would be amazing it would be an amazing piece of beer to be the biggest 706 01:07:12.240 --> 01:07:17.440 to worry as well yeah he would be the biggest just like fraudster of all time if that he was 707 01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:23.440 able to keep up that act that would just be something unreal but no yeah yeah we don't we don't need 708 01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:29.440 that um as to Elon Musk like I think I would I would love to to hear you guys interview him 709 01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:33.200 because yeah I think Ryan as you say like he does talk about crypto a lot but it's like 710 01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:39.440 it seems to be like I mean he was kind of on it on Joe Rogan a couple of weeks back wasn't it 711 01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:44.320 and he sort of dips his toe in and he starts talking about it and then the conversation goes somewhere 712 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:50.480 else you're like no right come back talk talk more and now he's talking about Twitter becoming 713 01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:58.160 basically a replacement for banks uh and you can do all of your banking on twitter and so we go 714 01:07:58.240 --> 01:08:03.680 and we're just like but that means crypto right like how well are you gonna do this because 715 01:08:03.680 --> 01:08:10.400 you're gonna have to use the legacy banking system unless you use crypto right and so I you know 716 01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:16.560 maybe that will draw him in uh we'll have to see he's immune to crypto Elon to crypto guy 717 01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:24.640 he's a crypto I said he needs to be better when you left David I said he was on like our number one 718 01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:32.240 I guessed like honor wish list for the longest time anyway yeah yeah yeah uh Elon frisive views 719 01:08:32.240 --> 01:08:37.840 would be the number one guess you all know a harrari for the content oh yeah yeah they're big one 720 01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:42.560 yeah oh and we'll also read all you well I think I mean I'm I'm looking forward to hearing all 721 01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:47.440 three of them I think I think we you know be great to hear great to hear those guys on the show 722 01:08:47.440 --> 01:08:52.080 before too long so if any of if any of those guys are watching you guys have to get on bankless 723 01:08:52.720 --> 01:09:00.800 ASAP because we agree with that yeah good um well guys I've taken up a lot of your time already 724 01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:05.360 I'm sure you I'm sure you've got a lot more things to do but um thank you so much this was this 725 01:09:05.360 --> 01:09:10.720 was great I've got I've got like a list of about a dozen other questions um to ask you but it'll 726 01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:16.400 have to wait until another time but um this has been fantastic you guys do amazing work I love 727 01:09:16.480 --> 01:09:22.240 listening to you um anyone watching if you're not subscribed to bankless you're missing out um we 728 01:09:22.240 --> 01:09:28.080 will leave links uh below in the description uh where you can follow um Ryan and David and yeah 729 01:09:28.080 --> 01:09:32.320 guys thank you so much I hope I hope this was fun and um I hope we can I hope we can catch up 730 01:09:32.320 --> 01:09:36.880 again soon that was an absolute blast hey David can we say that guys are a favorite crypto youtuber 731 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:40.560 are we able to say that yeah yeah yeah I mean he's mine I'm gonna say there you go you're saying 732 01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:45.600 go guy thank you for everything you do we certainly appreciate it um but guys thank you yes thank 733 01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:50.320 you so much that was that was amazing really enjoyed it and um yeah just keep doing keep doing 734 01:09:50.320 --> 01:09:57.120 what you're doing well they'll take care thanks awesome bye yeah