บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Black Masculinity, Hookup Culture & The Gay Blueprint: Andrew Akuruka

why do you think that? 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:52.560 I'm so intrigued. 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:52.959 What is that? 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.519 I think what it is, it's just us human beings, right? 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:56.799 We don't like accountability. 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:01.359 We don't and we try to do things that it makes it sound better. 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:06.560 But it's like it doesn't my thing is if you're if you're druggie, you're druggie. 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:09.360 If you're a slut, you're a slut. 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:16.719 And that's what it and so but we try to do these things because we don't like to take accountability and it's just like, oh yeah, but you know, I'm being sex positive. 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:17.680 No, you're being a slut. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.919 And there's nothing wrong with being a slut, but just own it. 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.800 If you want to sleep around, yeah, you're not what it is. 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:23.840 Just what it is. 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:25.599 Don't why is it not sex positive? 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:32.159 I mean it I think what it is, people try and disguise what they're doing to make it sound better. 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:33.840 And I've said it's also being a slut. 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:35.759 It's like, no, no, no, it's being sex positive. 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:36.639 But I'm like, what's the difference? 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.680 Well, yeah, what is the what do you see being a slut as the difference? 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:41.039 What do you think being a slut is? 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:41.919 Is it like what is that? 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:42.800 What's your definition? 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:46.400 It's someone that sleeps with multiple people, and you know, you put your stuff about. 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:47.039 Okay. 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:48.719 And you know what, and this is what I say to people. 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:56.080 I don't when I say talking, when I talk about things on my social media and even in my book, it doesn't come from a place of high ground, it comes from a place of I've lived that life. 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:58.159 Sometimes I do live that life. 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:04.240 You know, sometimes I wake up and you know, you know, I want to say own it. 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.479 But some people be like, no, no, that's rude, and it's got come on now, let's not run. 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:12.960 Okay, so you want people, you're like, I don't care if you're sleeping around, do what you want to do. 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:14.240 Do what you want, it's your it's your life. 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.039 But but you don't see it as sex positive, you see it as like you're just a slut. 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.639 I see sex, I see these things as people trying to rebrand things to make it sound better, for make it to make it sound. 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:24.319 But what's wrong with that? 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:30.560 I mean, it's people

not taking accountability because when you tell people that you're slut, but it's the same thing, right? 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:37.360 So it's to be if I was like I'm sex positive, that's me like trying to like not in your eyes, like I'm not taking accountability. 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:39.759 Can it be both? 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:40.639 You can be both. 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:41.520 Thank you. 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:49.919 You're still a slut if it offends you, then maybe you should change your behaviour. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.039 And that's what I say to people. 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:51.919 Are you a slut? 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:52.879 Yeah, no. 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.520 Um but it's the same thing, right? 00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:00.319 So then if you don't like it, then maybe you the question is, why are you doing it? 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:05.520 But do you not think it was probably more because are you talking about the gay community more when you're talking about this? 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:06.719 I'm talking about everybody. 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:18.800 Because I think that potentially it's because, and I'm just thinking as we're like talking, like slut is such a like a derogatory term for women specifically who are enjoying sex. 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:28.399 So I think maybe that's why the rebound was necessary for that side of things, because otherwise it's like they're still using it as like a bad way of saying you're sleeping around rather than actually, yeah. 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.519 I mean my thing is if you're happy with what you're doing, why does it matter? 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:32.959 I guess I get saying it. 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:33.839 You know what I'm saying? 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:50.639 I know certain words can obviously have like bigger background to them, and it but like I guess if it is the same thing, why this is what I say, we just don't we don't like to take accountability because accountability looks us in the face and you have to tell people I'm a slut and I sleep with so many people that I can't remember. 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:52.319 Okay, I just thought something else. 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:54.160 What are you can't remember? 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.839 I mean, I mean what about what about what about? 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:08.639 Um you are like not a slut and you're also not sex positive, you're just sleeping around. 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:09.839 Could that work? 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.360 Like, why is there a label for it? 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:12.720 Why can't we just sleep around? 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:18.879 Because I reckon a heteronormative person, like a man, can sleep around with as many women as he wants. 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.680 You wouldn't necessarily in the forefront of your mind, or heteronormative society wouldn't necessarily be like slut. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.639 But if a woman did it, but you wouldn't label it. 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:28.800 My thing is you sleep with so many people, yeah. 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:34.160 But as a woman doing it, I think slut is like an automatic, like my thing is it's it all it's all the same thing. 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:34.879 Just own it. 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:35.600 That's what I'm saying. 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:38.319 You sleep with a lot of people, you're sex positive, you're also a slut. 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:39.040 Okay. 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:44.160 Do you think there's anything potentially culturally that like makes you think like that? 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.120 Or do you think it's more um no? 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:50.399 I just I just think it's just owning it what it is. 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.000 When did you come out? 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:58.399 I can't well I had different types of coming out. 00:05:58.959 --> 00:05:59.360 Okay, okay. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:01.759 I did I came out to my mum last year for the first time. 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:02.720 Oh wow, congratulations. 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:04.959 Um that was an experience. 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:14.959 And then but in terms see, I don't know, I know it's really hard to answer that question because for me, coming out is just such a ongoing thing. 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:16.959 I feel like we're always coming out. 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:17.759 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:25.120 Do you all you're always coming out whether it's like like to your friends or to the to at work? 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:31.839 It's like I feel as gay people we always feel like we're coming out, and I don't feel like we should be branded in that box of coming out, it's just like just exist as who we are. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:32.480 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:33.839 Because straight people don't have to come out. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:34.800 Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:36.720 So when people say when did you come out? 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.560 It's almost just like it almost feels like is it supposed to be an achievement? 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:41.680 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:43.600 Or am I just supposed to just operate in the world? 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:49.759 And that's why I that's one of the things that I speak about in my book is that as gay people, we live in survival mode all the time. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:55.600 And coming out is a survival mode, it's just like, okay, I gotta come out, and it's almost survival. 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.680 I'm like, like, we should be able to just live with ourselves, you know, live in our truths. 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.079 I was saying this the other day to one of my friends, right? 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:13.600 And I mentioned it to a few people, it's just like when you start to realise that as a gay person, um we have the layer of being gay affects how we operate in the world all the time. 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:27.279 Like, as a gay man, a majority,

I would even say probably 99% of gay men, you walk out to the world, you see a man you like, most people wouldn't go and talk to him because the first thing that's in their mind is, oh my god, does he know I'm gay is he gay? 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.800 Is like how how do I know he's not gay, or how do I know he's straight? 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:41.519 Or like there's so many questions that you ask before you even go and speak to him, where it should just be, I should just go be able to walk up to a man and be like, oh, I think you're good looking, and for him to say, Oh, you know what, I'm straight or I'm gay. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:47.439 Because as a straight man, you could walk up to a female and you don't care whether she's a lesbian or not until she tells you like she's a lesbian. 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.920 You'd be like, okay, cool, I'll go about my business. 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:57.120 But we're constantly operating in a world of survival, and we just need to we need to rip those bandages off and be like, I don't give a fuck. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:58.160 Do you know what I mean? 00:07:58.319 --> 00:07:58.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:09.519 But I mean, obviously it's hard for that because of how society, I mean, there's still parts of the world where being gay is illegal, and so we don't have that um that luxury to be able to do it. 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:31.519 We have, I feel like we're privileged in the Western world to be able to do it, especially in a city like London, where we're able to operate and be ourselves, but to the wider society, um it's very difficult for a lot of people to still oper in that's why I the point I'm trying to make, going back to what I'm trying to say, is just that we still we're as gay people, we're always in survival mode. 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:38.799 So when we talk about coming out, it's always a very difficult thing for me to pinpoint pinpoint because I just like I'm just like I feel like we're always doing that. 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.840 And people that say they are, they're out. 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:54.159 I always question it is because when they're I've seen people with their boyfriends and they walk into certain parts of even certain parts of London, they walk into that are predominantly covered by ethnic minorities. 00:08:54.240 --> 00:09:00.960 I instantly see them detach themselves away because they feel that they can't be themselves or in those in those environments. 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.519 So I feel like it's like coming out is such a weird thing. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:05.440 When did you realise you were gay then? 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:06.799 Oh, from the age of six. 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:07.600 Oh really? 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:08.320 Yes. 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:21.279 What was your what was your why let me tell you it was it was and that's what it was like this boy like it was this boy in my primary school class, and I remember us we were looking at um

the dictionary and we saw sex in it. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:30.639 It's like oh, and we looked at each other as like it was so weird, it was such a little primary school thing where I was just like, Oh, we should be boyfriends. 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:34.320 I remember saying that I was just like, I was like, we can't do that. 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:38.879 I remember and then we went into the cloakroom and we just started rolling around. 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.200 Oh god, that young! 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.679 Yes, wow, okay, okay. 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:55.120 That's quite young to know that you're yeah, the way it was talked about in like around us and everything, I knew it was like I felt like it was something that I shouldn't be doing, so it was always done in secret. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:01.120 But from the age of six, yeah, I always knew I was into boys, like and I lost my virginity quite young as well. 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:01.759 Okay, yeah. 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:06.159 Well, you came out to your mum um last year. 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:07.120 How was that? 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:08.080 Was that okay? 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:15.600 It was weird because my mum is like she's like a Nigerian mum, like she's like a strong Nigerian woman. 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:33.600 So for me, all my life, like and I got brought up in a church, I was an altar boy, and so my mum is very religious, and so for me it was always a it was just like I always felt like a mum's love was conditional based on me being me presenting as a straight guy. 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.600 If I told her I was gay, that the love wouldn't be there no more. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:48.080 So I remember I when I I'd broken up in a um a relationship that I'd been in for 10 years, and I told her mum I needed to tell you something, and she goes, What is it? 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.240 She asked me, Is it is it your son? 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:51.679 Like, is there anything wrong with your son? 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:52.639 Is your health okay? 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:55.519 You lost like it's working, like is the business okay? 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:57.679 And then she goes, When what is it? 00:10:57.759 --> 00:10:59.200 Like, what is it that you can't talk to me about? 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:05.519 And I remember just crying, and I was crying, and she was just like, I remember closing my eyes and I goes, Mum, I'm gay. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:12.320 And then all I felt was like her arms around me, hug me, and she said, It's like it, you're my son, I love you. 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:24.320 And it was so deep, but I was I was I was so frustrated and disappointed because I was just like, Hold on, 38 years of my life, and this is it. 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:36.480 So you're saying you're saying what I was I had to I was doing all this hiding, all these maneuverings, all these kind of survival mode tactics for you to be like, Yeah, you're okay with it. 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:36.879 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:38.399 I was like, where's the drama? 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:39.600 I was just like, what? 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.360 I was pissed. 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.480 I wanted to be like, I want to tell, I wanted to have a story to tell. 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:48.000 I'm just like, well, I guess, okay, I guess my mum does have unconditional love for me. 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:48.399 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:48.639 --> 00:12:03.679 But then what was so powerful is the next day, because I was staying at me and my son were staying at a house for a period of time when I moved, when we moved out of um our family home, um, and she ran me a bath and she goes, Um, take off your clothes, I want to bathe you. 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:04.799 I was like, Mum, what do you mean? 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.480 I'm a big man, what do you mean you want to bathe me? 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:10.639 She just goes, Andrew, take off your clothes, and then she just bathed me in a bath. 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:15.519 And she was just and she was just like, but it was weird because it she was bathing me like I was a baby. 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:17.039 I was gonna Did you feel like a child? 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:26.639 I felt like a child and she bathed me and then she like she told me to get out of the bath, she like dried my skin, and then she like like creamed me and everything, and she goes, You know you're still my son. 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:28.080 And it was so deep. 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:42.399 But at the time it was so I was so like like like confused about everything that was going on in that moment that it's that it's not after I went up to my room and I was just like wow that was deep, yeah. 00:12:42.720 --> 00:13:00.080 And I think especially uh for you because um we've obviously done a lot of research about you and like your book and all of that kind of thing, and uh masculinity is a big thing that you speak about and you have been like almost like going against the grain a little bit over the years. 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:10.320 So having like all of that, all of like your teen years and your 20s like having to be like a particular way and then feeling like a little boy with your mum, I can imagine is quite like overwhelming. 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:17.759 It was it was very overwhelming because it was just like like I said, like you said, like the masculinity thing is something that I've always struggled with. 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:18.159 Yeah. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.679 Like I've always struggled with all my identities because I was just like, I don't know who I am. 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:22.000 Yeah. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:23.600 What is the what does that mean? 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:24.639 What wh why? 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:30.159 Because what it is, yeah, everybody is like when we have like labels, right? 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.200 Society tells you what you are, how that label, they characterize that label.

00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:35.519 Yeah. 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:40.000 And so in my book, I've got this thing where on the on the front of it it says no straight acting, no gay acting. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:41.600 No gay acting, no straight acting. 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:46.000 Because what it is, as a gay man, people describe how you are. 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.799 So you're supposed to we we even do it within the community, we go, oh he's gay. 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.759 How do you know that man is sleeping with another man? 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.000 You're basing it on how we've characterized what being gay is. 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:08.799 And so for me, I I lived in my masculinity, and so for me, I I was just like, well, I can't be gay because I don't act like that. 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:19.440 What people are describing gay is, yeah, and so it messed with me, and then I had to come to a place of uh understanding, no, I'm attracted to men, but I'm also a masculine man. 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:32.639 And and that's when I started to understand my my own identity because it was confused by what other people had said, this is what gay is, this is what a man is, this is what it is to be masculine, this is what it means to be black. 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.200 And so all of those different identities are always confused because I was like, Well, if I'm black, it's just like black people say, Oh, we don't do that. 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.240 That's not that's not we we don't that's not something we do. 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:48.960 Yeah, and then I I'll walk into gay communities and they'd be like, Oh, you you're you you're acting straight, like you're you're a straight guy. 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:53.120 Like I don't like I'm just like and then so it's just like everywhere I'm confused. 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:54.720 I'm just like, well, I don't fit in it. 00:14:54.799 --> 00:15:05.679 I literally I didn't know even up until I feel sometimes to this day, I don't feel like I fit in anywhere because I'm always operating it, and that's one of the that was another reason why I decided to write a book. 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:12.080 Because I'm just like, well, I want to be able to speak for the voices and represent people that look and sound like me. 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:13.120 Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:15.600 Because I never saw examples of that growing up. 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:27.840 All the examples that you would see on TV were a particular stereotype, yeah, and I was just like, well, being gay doesn't look like anything, it's just an attraction to the same sex, that's all it is. 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:35.120 And so we shouldn't be put in, oh, this is gay music, or this is this is how gay people dress, or that's gay. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:45.279 It's like all gay is an attraction to the same sex, and we need to break those stereotypes of oh yeah, no, this is no, it's not, yeah, and we can all like live and look different and like act, yeah, yeah. 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:46.320 I get that. 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:50.960 I think like, do you feel a pressure to be masculine? 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.039 Because there's also there's like twofold, isn't it? 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:55.519 Because I think that's a really important point that I think it's missed. 00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:02.240 Because when someone's straight acting in the gay community, it's like they haven't they have it easier because it's like you don't have to. 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:15.600 I'm not saying you do, but I'm saying like an argument is like you don't have to come out if you don't want to because you can you're passable, and also like the attraction is that masculine, like gay people, like you say, or that's gay, like sometimes we're the most judgmental in the community. 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:17.120 We want someone straight acting, we want someone. 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:21.440 But I think it's this that's the problem because when we say straight acting, I talk about this all the time. 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:21.840 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.960 Yeah, because you're straight means to like the opposite sex, and acting means to act, right? 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:33.200 So I'm acting to like women, yeah. 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:41.919 I think people mean it as masculine, just like that's where the problem is because it's suggesting that because you're straight that you're masculine, whereas a straight man can be feminine. 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:42.559 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:43.360 You see what I'm saying? 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:43.679 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:48.399 And so when we say that term straight acting, it's it's it's the stupidest thing that's ever been created. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.279 Yeah. 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.440 It doesn't make any sense, yeah. 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.679 Cause it's like the sexuality and the yeah, yeah, that's really feminine to be gay. 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:56.639 Yeah, that's a really good point. 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.000 And so then it puts you in this box where it's just like, are you acting masculine? 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.639 Whereas because I'm gay, I can't be masculine. 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:02.879 Yeah. 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:03.679 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.240 That's that's basically what people are interpreting that to be. 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.400 But I have I have that stereotype. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.480 We we all grown up on that stereotype, and that's why we'd be like, oh yeah, he looks gay. 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:13.759 How do you know that man is gay? 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:14.400 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:14.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:15.599 You don't know that. 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:24.480 Yet stereotypes exist for a reason, then you can classify things because majority of people might

like do something, but stereotyping doesn't mean facts. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.559 I mean, that even my question like falls into stereotypes. 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.759 Yeah, because even me being like, Do you feel the pressure of being masculine? 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.359 Yeah is like, why do you feel like that? 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:34.000 You know what I'm saying? 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.759 If that's how I am, but that's my character. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:37.759 Yeah, a character that's not my sexuality. 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.160 Yeah, I don't know anything going on. 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:44.720 I like that, that's so good. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:45.200 Yeah. 00:17:45.359 --> 00:18:02.880 Um, one other thing that I do want to uh touch on is um you've spoken a lot about having to present in a particular way and also like particular people putting expectations on you of the black masculine man. 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.240 Can you talk us through that a little bit? 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:18.400 I think just going like again, talking about what we were what we were saying about the identification of how people classify things because and this is where I struggled because I didn't know whether I was performing or whether this is who I am. 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.319 Because I'm being told, okay, this is how gay people act. 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:31.200 As a black man, you're supposed to be like, you know, society and the like the how you grow up is like this is how we're supposed to act. 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:43.279 And then I didn't know whether I think I struggled because I was just like, am I acting, am I trying to be more masculine because I'm trying to not be gay? 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:54.480 But then it's like I didn't really have a problem with being gay in a sense that um I was ashamed of it. 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.480 I was I don't know, I was don't what I say I was ashamed of it. 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:11.759 I think it was I didn't want people to know because of how I guess yeah, I guess there was a little bit of shame around it, but I think that people would see me less of a man because they thought I was gay. 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:12.559 Yeah. 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:16.160 People who just the world, like that's that's that was my perception. 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:17.599 This is what I've been told. 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.200 Like this is how gay people act. 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.319 So if you're if you're gay, then that means you can't be a man. 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:23.200 Yeah, you know what I'm saying? 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.839 Yeah, when I started to think about it, it's like stupid. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:26.480 What is that? 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:27.680 That don't even make any sense. 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:28.160 Yeah. 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:34.559 And then and then that's why I did another post recently was whether non have non-binary people actually got it right. 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:41.599 Because if you think about non-binary, right, you're educated, it's like being a man, you're taught how to be a man. 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.880 You say, This is what a man does, this is what a man, this is what a woman does. 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:52.319 And then it's just like being gay, it's just like we do the same thing, like this is what it means to be gay, like gay music, gay culture, gay that. 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:58.000 And to to not have any labels, you just exist as human. 00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:58.799 This is who I am. 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.680 I like men, and this is this is my character. 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:08.160 I like to do these types of things, but it doesn't mean that because I like to do these type of things, that I am gay. 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.200 It's just my character and my sexuality are two different things. 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:11.759 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:12.559 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:13.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:18.799 Yeah, gender pronouns and like gender identity isn't the same as sexuality, and I think they get conflated quite a bit, don't they? 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:19.440 You know what I'm saying? 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:21.920 It gets associated with one where everything is different. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.319 Whereas if we don't have any labels, then even down to even down to colour. 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:27.200 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:28.400 I always say this all the time. 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.720 It's just like the on a colour scale, what colour am I? 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:33.519 Brown. 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:34.720 What colour are you? 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.519 Brown. 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:36.559 What colour are you? 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:37.200 Brown. 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.799 As a human race, we're all the same different colours, different shades of brown. 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.599 But we've somehow decided to put them into boxes now. 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:45.200 Black, white, brown. 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:46.079 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:47.200 Which don't even make sense. 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:47.599 Yeah. 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:49.440 Where does the pressure come from though? 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.640 Do you think there's pressure from is your background fully Nigerian? 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:53.279 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:01.119 Do you think there's pressure from like the like Nigerian side, like the like what you what do you see as a black man? 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:02.240 Is it from the white side? 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:08.960 Is it from the Western ideology of what a black man should be or act like, or is it from just society as a general, like the whole society. 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:18.720 I mean, like, they've done like I've seen surveys done recently where they said, oh, like they find the black

man the most masculine man out of all men. 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:33.359 So when that it's like you get this it's so funny because something happened to me like a couple months ago, and I was riding my bike, um, I was riding this mic bike, and this other guy was riding his bike, and he crashed into me. 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.920 I came off worse, and everyone rushed to him. 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.400 It was this white guy, it was a bit smaller than me, and it was like, Oh yeah, you'll be alright. 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:43.839 I was like, I was bleeding. 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:49.279 He had no scratches on him, and every and it was so interesting because if you understand, you understand what happened. 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:50.160 Yeah, a hundred percent. 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.440 It was just like, Well, I'm bleeding and I'm coming off worse. 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.519 Why is everybody running to him to find out he's okay? 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.519 Yeah, and is it and everyone's like joking to me, like, oh yeah, you're all right, you're a big lad, you're 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:10.240 Yeah, that is that is uh I think the black experience as a whole because if you think of like black women, like they're always how do people label them? 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:12.960 Strong black women, yeah, they can deal with a lot. 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.880 It's like being sensitive is not in our realm of like what we should be. 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:24.079 It's like we're not supposed to be, it's like we're supposed to be hard, we're meant to be like not showing emotion, and I think that all links back to slavery. 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:31.519 Yeah, I think it does, and I think it was a way of the West being able to deal mentally with what they were doing, yeah. 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:34.640 Yeah, it's like oh no, they're they're different, they're cut a little bit different. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:40.160 So I think it's interesting how these old colonial things still leak into us now. 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:58.000 It's so frustrating because it's just like as a black boy, you just you have certain experiences growing up, like just it's just like the basic things, and this is where I know that I was speaking to a lot of my friends and I told them like they definitely understood what like what white privilege is, and I'm saying to them, like, you don't have to think about certain things. 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:08.400 Me walking down the street at night, like I instantly cross the road because if I if I see a white woman on the road, because I really I can see her the way she's acting, like something's gonna happen. 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:14.400 Yeah, and it's a lot of the time just like we having to operate in a certain way, like even when I walk into a shop. 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:22.720 I remember in secondary school days, I would walk into a shop with some of my white friends, they'll be the ones robbing the shop, yeah, and then the security's coming to me. 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:27.279 I'm just like damn you're an idiot. 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.720 Your shop just got robbed, and you're focused on the wrong person. 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:42.720 Yeah, and just yeah, I mean, it's just society as a general, like like the label, and that's why I say labels and the way people act and how people perceive things is always it's I think it's quite dangerous. 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:50.880 Is is there some stuff that you've had to like go through or anything that you can think where you've had to like undo some of the things that like society has put on you? 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.839 Almost like a light bulb moment where you're like, okay, I need to undo some of the things, the stereotypes that I put on myself. 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:56.960 Oh, yeah, my son. 00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:58.160 I talk about this all the time. 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:03.519 My son, um so we were going shopping one time and he picked out a pink toy. 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:05.119 I'm like, Why are you picking it out? 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:05.920 That's for girls. 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.440 And then he said to me, Why does it matter at the age of five? 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:22.559 Now, as a parent, let me tell you, when your kid like outsmarts you or says something to you, it's that thing where you're like, Oh my god, do I just tell them to shut up? 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.480 Like, who you're talking to? 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.359 That reminds me of Nellar Ray, just like fuck you and go back to the room. 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:30.960 And he said it in a shop full of people, and everyone's looking at me. 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:36.559 I'm just like, Oh, you can pick any two five of them. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.599 And I was so mad, and then it made me think, like, why does it even matter? 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:42.400 And I had to apologise. 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.839 I said, You know what, I apologise for you. 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.000 I was putting my trauma onto you, yeah. 00:24:46.240 --> 00:25:24.960 And so for me, that was one of those one of the remembrance that I could think, you know what, yeah, like it it made me question my idea of masculinity, and it because for me it was very toxic, and it was and that's why I said back at the beginning, I questioned sometimes my masculinity because I didn't know whether it was performance because because I so didn't want to be associated with the idea of being gay because of what people how people perceive being gay, I was almost shh- I was almost so toxic with my masculinity, where it's just like my straight friends used to be like, bro, you're too rough, just calm down. 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:29.920 Like everyone just always used to be like because I just wanted I was always trying to be the top dog. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:38.240 And especially in South London, it's just like if you if you're if you're weak in a certain way, people are

gonna like bully you or something. 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:51.039 So for me, I was always like trying to be the hardest guy, always trying to do this, and I didn't know, I didn't think I was intentionally trying to do it, but when I look back, I was just like, oh, I was going extra hard. 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:51.359 Yeah. 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.559 And I was trying to do that to compensate for being gay. 00:25:54.720 --> 00:26:05.119 And it's not until I accepted myself as okay, this is me being gay, but being gay doesn't make me less masculine, or being gay doesn't make me less black. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.279 And that's when I was able to calm down and be like, Yeah, I'm I'm good. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:09.839 Yeah, yeah. 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:19.519 Have you fully reached that now, or do you still kind of wish you had a bit more femininity, or like, is there any type like when you're by yourself thinking, like, do I still perpetuate that? 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:33.920 I mean, I think bringing up my son as a full-time dad, I've had to learn to be a little bit like a little bit nurturing, but I don't know whether I would call that like is that's bringing out a feminine side. 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:39.119 Um, I mean, the only thing that I started doing recently because I used to wash my face with like shower gel. 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:46.640 So now I've learned to have like certain facial products, and you know, like you need to use this to wash your face and that. 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.200 And even still some these days I'm just like, okay, you know what? 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:50.480 I'll put shower gel on my face. 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:52.880 But this is a lot. 00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:03.759 I think I think what I'm trying to think of like femininity is like the act of femininity being able to be exhibited by men and women and everyone in between. 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.519 Not like because when I say femininity, I don't mean like stereotypically what women do. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:14.480 I mean like the what what is classified in some ways, not everyone classifies it the same, as a feminine trait. 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.400 So like the nurturing-caring side, the you know, those kind of like things as well. 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.920 But wouldn't you say that could be that can be given to the same as a masculine trait? 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:28.160 It could be it could be exhibited by a man as well as a woman and everything in between, but it can still be a feminine trait. 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:39.839 But as I'm saying, give me an example of something, and I can't like the nurturing, like being more nurturing, being more loving, like being more compassionate, those are traditionally in some ways defined as like feminine traits. 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:41.920 The mother, yeah, and masculine traits. 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.480 So then would masculine trait be the opposite of that then? 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.119 No,

masculine traits could be different to it rather than opposite. 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:55.359 So like um masculinity could be um protect power, protection, like that could be a masculine trait. 00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:11.519 But I think when we get too wrapped up in the fact that we associate masculinity with a man, that's when it becomes like we almost want to like extra steer clear or extra be clear about what is femininity and masculinity, but that you could be feminine and masculine as someone who's male. 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:29.680 So I struggle, I struggle because I don't I because I don't know what it means because let's say arguably, right, social the social construction of like constructivism, like the there's a theory like social construct, right? 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.039 So let's say like uh gender is in that, yeah. 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:48.880 So masculine traits according to that would say like let's say money, power, um you know, strength, those are seen as like masculine traits, and then feminine traits are nurturing, caring, compassion, you know, those kind of things. 00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:51.039 Do you see what I mean? 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:55.519 It's just like a man and a woman can possess all of those same paths, masculine and feminine. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:00.400 So I would say, then I would say that I could I I would I operate I try to operate in kindness, yeah. 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:01.599 And like, do you know what I'm saying? 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.160 So would that be considered a feminine trait? 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:05.039 Potentially, yeah. 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:10.240 It's like yeah, then I have got feminine traits if that is what we consider femininity to be. 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:19.920 As opposed to like the stereotype of like femininity, is like I suppose what I said earlier contradicts like painting nails and liking a certain artist or something like that. 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:22.240 Like, I think sometimes we like simplify it a bit. 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.200 Would you say that's more camp or flamboyant? 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:31.440 That's supposed to be feminine, because I feel like you can be a masculine man and be flamboyant. 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.160 Okay, yeah, you could have both. 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:34.960 Or like camp. 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:35.920 Depending, yeah, yeah. 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:42.559 Because camp is loud, loud is an expression, is the way you walk, is the way you talk, is it's it's supposed to be exaggerated, like camp. 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:43.200 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.559 So is that what we're calling femininity? 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:47.519 Could be. 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.759 I'm I'm interested to see what you think as well. 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:51.599 Like, I don't I don't know the answer to all of it. 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:57.920 I mean, if we're using camping as an example, then I wouldn't say that's something that it's in line with me. 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:07.599 Is there um in the past with like dating uh like I feel like masculinity in the gay community is like the prize thing? 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.240 Do you know what I mean? 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:14.880 Like when you speak to like for gay men, I think when you speak to a gay man, they're like, I want a masculine man, I want him to be XYZ. 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:25.759 Um was there was there times in your dating history where you felt that maybe there were just people that you were dating were just interested in you for that rather than who Andrew? 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:26.480 100%. 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:49.359 I feel like because it's it's a weird thing, it's it's a gift and a curse because it's like I know that when I walk into certain spaces, that it's in my younger days when you were looking for validation and stuff like that, I could walk into spaces and be like, okay, there's a there's people people idolizing that that that do you know what I'm saying? 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:56.079 But then as I've gotten older, I started to realise um there's a difference between being desired and being known. 00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.000 So people like the idea of me. 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:10.960 So people would see me as a as a big black man with like muscular and this, and they'd be like, So they like that, they say, Oh, I want that, but they didn't care to know who I was, and that's when I started to realise, oh, I don't I don't think I like this. 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:39.920 Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's so destroying because when somebody just wants you for the idea of what you are, it dehumanises you, and it's just like and I've done things like um I've spoken about this and I've done like um imageries about this, like people just wanting me because I'm like the BBC, or like they want this because you're top, or they want these all these labels that are associated with it, and you realize people just want to try you, they don't want to know you. 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:47.039 Do you does that do is there a specific uh type of person that is a specific race that you feel that comes from? 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:48.880 It sounds like like a fetish, right? 00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:50.720 That's what it kind of feels like. 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.839 Um or does it come within the black community as well? 00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:55.119 I think it comes, yeah. 00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:03.599 All of it I see it more outside of the outside of the black community, but it's the community, the gay community in general in general. 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:03.759 Yeah. 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:04.559 Like, do you know what I'm saying? 00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:09.680 I've seen people just be like, oh yeah, like I want you, but but you don't even know me. 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:11.039 Why why do you want me? 00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:11.279 Yeah. 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:12.160 Like, do you know what I'm saying? 00:32:12.240 -->

00:32:12.400 Yeah. 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:13.759 Well, you want the idea of me. 00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:17.839 You like the idea of how I present myself, how I talk, and and so I'm always when I talk in the. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.599 And if it goes deeper there than like, oh I like no, I don't care like what you've got. 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:23.039 Yeah, like what you're doing. 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:27.680 I've literally had to sit there and I've I was actually in the situation I was telling you about. 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:41.759 This person, I remember we got into uh a little discussion about something, and it's just like, oh, I just thought you were gonna be the type of man that you know when I was talking, um, you wasn't gonna say nothing back or anything like that. 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.440 I just thought, I was like, what? 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:44.480 What are you talking about? 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.519 I was so confused. 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:53.839 I was just like, so what you just expecting me to just just let you talk, I don't express my feelings or nothing, and just yeah, and he goes, Yeah. 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.720 I was like, huh? 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.160 That doesn't even make any sense. 00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:13.359 And I started to think back and I was just like, ah, because you like the idea of me, you desired me, to the point where this person I was talking, this person I was like in a situation was, it was just like they used to like glorify my looks. 00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:20.799 It's like, oh my god, you're the you're the best looking person I've ever I've I've had, and you're you're the best looking person I've ever wanted, and you're everything. 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:30.000 And I was just like, when I when I thought when I started to think back on it, it was never about you're a kind person or you're the type of person I want to be a build a life with. 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:35.359 It was always about my looks and how I presented and my masculinity and all of that. 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:42.400 It was never about who I was, and then I start it started to leave a taste in my mouth where it's just like this person, this person doesn't want me. 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:45.119 They want a version of me that is inside their head, yeah. 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:46.160 They want to date. 00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:51.200 And as soon as you show like what your personality is actually like, that's when kind of like the relationship starts to crumble. 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.720 It starts to crumble because it's just like now I've I'm I've got more depth to that. 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:01.359 I'm I'm not just this person that you have put like you've do you want me to be. 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:01.599 Yeah. 00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.359 That I'm I'm actually a real human that's got feelings and I've got expression. 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:17.840 I guess probably that's in a sense, I guess, if you want to call that

the feminine the feminine side, it's like I'm someone that I'm someone that I like deep conversations, I like talking, I like like understanding what you are, who you are, where you've come from, all of those things. 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.519 And that person never really wanted to understand or know that. 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:23.920 And that's when I started to realise, yeah, I don't like this feeling anymore. 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.199 Yeah, because before I used to be validated by that feeling, because I was just like, you know, like to be desired. 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.480 Yeah, I get it. 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:31.519 Who doesn't want to be desired? 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:49.280 Yeah, so it kind of it's nice to be desired, but when you when you um when you have when your desire becomes your self-worth, that's when it becomes dangerous because now you're living up to people's desire and lose self-worth is like gone. 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:51.199 You could you could lose yourself. 00:34:51.599 --> 00:35:07.119 That I think that's quite an interesting like thing to come across as like they saw you a certain way with stereotypes, whether that's like ethnicity or or masculinity, whatever, and then it's like, oh, actually, you're you're showing me emotions, yeah. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:08.960 Like you're actually you're being sensitive. 00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:09.920 Like, why are you being sensitive? 00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.199 Yeah, to the point where it maybe kind of feel uncomfortable about being sensitive. 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:14.079 Because I was just like, What? 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:14.400 Hold on. 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:23.360 Yeah, and that's the thing you don't need, especially if you're already struggling or have struggled with coming to terms with being gay in general, let alone all these other intersections coming into it. 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:28.480 So I I guess that's the that's the issue within the community and like that we need to work on. 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:47.599 And I think as well, people of colour across the world, I do think suffer with that more so like I know that you've spoken about it before, being Arab, uh, the idea of what like an Arab man should do, and be the struggle of like, okay, well, gayness and queerness is completely separate to like your upbringing. 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:48.159 Do you know what I mean? 00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:58.480 And I feel like lots of people kind of feel like that because like yeah, we're like here we're like we're taught how to be these identities, and so when we don't fall into them, it's like we're either classified as people look at us, uh huh. 00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:00.000 Yeah, yeah, like do you know what I'm saying? 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:05.039 It's a weird thing is like, hold on, what would make you think that I don't have anything outside of what you think I am? 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:05.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:10.000 So coming to that realization, how did you then navigate relationships? 00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.519 Did it like change or shift a lot, or like who you were looking for? 00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:19.280 Oh, let me tell you now, if you're gonna date me, I've got 200 questions before we even go on a date. 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.000 And I'm being for real, I've literally written out 200 questions. 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:22.400 Okay. 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:26.159 Because the thing is, it's like, and that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book as well, yeah. 00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:36.800 Because um I mentioned there's I've mentioned in like posts that I've done before, as gay people, we're individualized into society, and straight people are socialized. 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:41.599 And so what I mean by that is just that we've never really as I I'm gonna keep it real. 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.639 As gay people don't have structure and we don't have discipline. 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.199 We've never had we've never had that, because we never had examples to live by. 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:50.079 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:58.639 Whereas straight people, they've they've had centuries of of um structure and design that they they kind of live by. 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:03.440 As humans, we need structure because we are we're crazy. 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:14.960 We're not we are as human beings, we can't be trusted because we're always gonna make a choice and then try and justify that choice with whatever. 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:23.360 It's just like, oh yeah, I'm taking drugs because I'm having a and I when I say I again want to say this as well here, because people love to say that I'm I'm talking from a high ground. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:34.800 This is not coming from a parliament that hasn't done this thing, and I'm not saying that I'm not still doing it, but when you understand what you're doing, you have to you have to qu you have to be real with yourself. 00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:45.519 If you're taking drugs, it's drugs, however you want to print it out, like however you want to dance it out or wherever, does it have nutritional value in your body? 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:46.239 No. 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:47.760 So is drugs good for you? 00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:48.559 No. 00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:55.679 And people don't like that accountability because it makes them because and I say to them, well, you don't have self-love. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.599 You can't have self-love is looking after body, mind and spirit. 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:00.719 And that comes from myself. 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:05.599 If you're not looking after your body and your mind and your spirit in the right way, then you don't have self-love. 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:14.960 So you then have to question the activities you're doing now, whether the drug taking, even down to and even down to sex, right?

00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.119 The hookup culture that we've got, right? 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:18.559 We have to question that. 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:25.280 Because if the most for me, the most valuable asset to a human being that a human being has is your body and your time. 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.320 Because without your body and your time, you won't exist here. 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:34.480 So you give a random stranger your body, but you wouldn't give them the keys to your house. 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:35.440 Why? 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.440 Because your house is valuable, right? 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.639 So but if your body's more valuable your body and your time is more valuable, you're just giving it to someone randomly. 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:49.280 So then you have to question then what value am I giving my body and my time? 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:55.760 You have to accept that you're not giving it real value, because you're just giving it to somebody that doesn't value your body in that moment in time. 00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:01.199 They desire your body because you're you're in a hookup and it's just like, yeah, but to that person, you're a piece of meat. 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:04.079 If you died in that moment, they'll be like, oh yeah, they won't they're not gonna think about it. 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:05.599 Yeah, they're gonna go on and live their lives. 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.000 Yeah. 00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:12.320 But yeah, because hookup culture is like such I don't know, it goes hand in hand with being gay. 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:14.960 Or gay, I think more so like gay men. 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.440 Like it's and I think it's left over from the past of like not being able to date. 00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:22.639 Yeah, and it was a way that you almost like experience different. 00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:25.840 And that's why I say we have to sit down and look at it. 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.760 And that's one of the reasons why I look at the book, I wrote the book, is because we have to ask ourselves questions. 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:38.239 Behaviors that we currently do, are we defending them because we haven't really addressed our core issues? 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.360 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:39:39.679 --> 00:40:10.320 We were never educated, like we we we like for our for for I can talk for our generation, we were never educated by our parents how to date or do all of that or uh experience things, and so we've had to learn that ourselves, we've had to teach ourselves that, and in teaching ourselves that, we've made so many bad choices and we continue making bad choices, and we we haven't sat down and said, you know what, these behaviours that we defend, whether it's taking drugs, hookup culture, and all of that, are they things that we're supposed to be doing? 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:20.480 And one one thing that I've come to understand, and a lot of people are gonna probably go crazy or chat shit, or what are we gonna say? 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:25.440 One thing I will say religion has done really well, it's given people structure. 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:34.239 I'm not talking about how people manage religion or things that like uh interpret it, or how people can use people religion to control people. 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:45.360 But if you listen, like if you look at any religion in the world, all it does is teach kindness and how to make better choices, like you shouldn't be stealing, you shouldn't be committing adultery, you shouldn't be doing like you shouldn't have sex before marriage. 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:55.760 When you really think about the idea of how not having sex before marriage, right, it's a it's preserving the most valuable asset that you have to give to somebody that you want to spend your life with, not just giving it to anybody. 00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:03.679 Now, if you're not if you're giving your body to everybody, you also have to accept that you're not valuing your body. 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.920 But I think I I I understand I like the argument that you're making. 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.719 I understand that it depends what like that's your opinion of what's like valuable as well. 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:14.079 Like sometimes you have to like zoom out. 00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:15.280 So I'm gonna ask you a question. 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.599 Is your body not the most valuable aspect you need to do? 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:21.199 No, but it is, but maybe that doesn't devalue my body if I sleep with someone. 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:21.679 Like to me. 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:22.880 So I'm asking you this question. 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:24.639 Listen to the questions I'm gonna ask you, right? 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:29.760 I'm probably not the right person because the only person I've ever slept with is him, so I'm probably not the right person. 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:35.679 No, but if you think about what I'm if you think about what I'm saying, yeah, you wouldn't give your house keys to a stranger. 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:36.719 Because why? 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:38.400 Because your house is valuable to you, right? 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:38.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:40.400 I like the argument. 00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:41.199 Yeah, I do get that. 00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:51.760 So if your body's the most valuable thing and you think your body's more valuable than your house, then But if the stranger's nice and then I come in and clean my house, like I'd give them. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:52.960 Well, you don't know that person. 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:53.920 No, I don't. 00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:58.480 But that but then when I'm sleeping with someone having a good time, nothing bad's happened, like the human. 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:03.119 So so you so like this equipment that you've got here right now, someone walks in here and says, I'm gonna take that. 00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:05.599 You're just gonna

give it to them because they smiled at you. 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:08.000 No, it's not mine. 00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:12.639 That would be stealing. 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:14.559 I understand. 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:16.079 I do understand where I'm coming from. 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:26.480 I understand what you're saying, but on the flip side, to play devil's advocate, yeah, yeah, humans are animals, and in the animal kingdom, sex is not viewed in that way. 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:33.519 Is it not because we have all these rules and regulations on like what it is to be human and we should be doing X, Y, and Z? 00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:37.360 Lions do not care about how many people that they sleep with. 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:38.639 Every animal, I think. 00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:40.480 There's some animals that make for life, yeah. 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:42.719 But in general, they don't. 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:45.360 And I think also like going back to Monogamy is not a thing in the animal. 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:50.079 And the thing is, I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is that you have to it's it's facts, right? 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:53.280 Yeah, if your your body's the most valuable thing you have, right? 00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.079 Yeah. 00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.920 So by giving it to somebody else, right? 00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:04.159 You have to accept that in that moment in time, you're just what if that is value? 00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.280 Like, what if you give it to someone you have the best night ever, but it's just a one-night stand? 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:08.800 Like, why is that not good value then? 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:10.159 Because that person doesn't value you. 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:10.880 How do you know that? 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.360 They could because you're just a piece of meat to them in that moment. 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:19.519 But in that but in that moment in that moment they might be like, This is amazing, like you're so like I love your body, you're so amazing. 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:36.559 Not know you, because I think that's now valuing your insights, they're valuing your personality and your your um character to get to know you, but to value physically your body, someone could just look at you and be like, Wow, they could value your body. 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:38.320 But that's you desire in me. 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:48.960 That desire and value are two different things, but but they could have value, like I could desire a diamond or I could desire a Louis Vuitton bag, I could desire and and that could be of value to me, but you couldn't put it. 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:52.480 But then you would you would you wouldn't give anybody your Louis Vuitton bag to hold, would you? 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:52.800 Yeah. 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:56.719 You would you would be like, no, this is I just spent ten grand on this bag. 00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:58.960 I'm not just about to give it to anybody to hold. 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:03.840 And if you If that's the case, then you don't value, but the things that you do value, you're not gonna give it to everyone. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:04.719 Do you see what I'm saying? 00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:14.880 I do understand what you're saying, and I think gay men I do get it because the hookup culture is like it's you're you're you're just you are dialogue. 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:17.360 You go on the app and you're literally like, mmm, I don't want that one. 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:23.039 But you're putting you're I feel like you're putting value a little bit like you're you're defining value differently. 00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:32.239 I think that's the thing, like your definition of of value isn't necessarily factual because you're saying that there needs to be like you're quantifying value by like a time frame. 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:34.159 So if s someone gets to know you over a period. 00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:39.920 What I'm saying to you, your body is the most voluble, the most valuable asset that we have, because without your body you can't exist here, right? 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:40.320 Yeah. 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:40.639 Yeah. 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:41.760 But so that's a value. 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:48.719 But in a one night stand, like just because it's quantified by 12 hours doesn't mean someone doesn't can't value you in that 12 hours. 00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.840 No, it's not about it's you valuing yourself. 00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.760 Because if your if your body is the most valuable thing, why would you give it to somebody randomly? 00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:02.800 If you wouldn't give a 10,000 pound equipment to a random stranger and say, take it. 00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:43.599 I do think like it's so interesting because I do think there's a like in as time like progresses, I do think there are things it feels like you've seen some stuff, you've seen some stuff, you've seen some stuff on social media and and in life, and I feel like there are waves as always that go go around like the world, and so there might be a period of time where like the body positivity came through, or like the fact that the gay community, like you shouldn't shame people for kinks, or you shouldn't shame people for taking drugs because like you shouldn't judge people, and even like to a certain point, like you're explaining yourself here, saying, like, I'm not above you by saying that I've done these mistakes or these choices. 00:45:46.800 --> 00:46:12.320 But I do get that slight frustration of like, why can't you sometimes just say like you're choosing to do drugs and like that's not good for you, rather than that coming across like a judgment and actually just saying, That's cool, it's your choice, but just so you know, like your choice has consequences, and I think that that's quite an interesting angle that I think I agree with is like we do lack accountability within our community. 00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:13.519 Well,

everyone does in general. 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:23.679 We've got a pandemic on our hands at the moment, like this chemsex thing that everybody's doing is a pandemic, people are dying weekly, and then it's just like we're putting oh you know, everyone's having fun. 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:24.880 Bro, it's crazy. 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.039 People are dying weekly, yeah. 00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:31.440 And you're also surrounded by lots of people that don't care about you, don't care about your safety. 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:32.320 And this is what I'm talking about. 00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:45.039 And this is and this is what I'm saying, when it's okay, it's okay to have sexual experiences and what I'm never against that, but when it starts to be as you're doing it for escapism on loneliness, and and that's what a lot of people are doing it. 00:46:45.119 --> 00:47:17.119 A lot of people are there's a lot of lonely people in the world, and especially being gay, a lot of people, some people have been detached from their families and all of that, and so this is their way of connecting to other people because as a gay man, it's how do you make friends with another gay man without like it being the initial sexual thing because we're not taught how to yeah, we're not taught how to live in society, we've taught been taught how to now create a community, and now we live within that community, and then it's just like but everyone's having sex with everyone in the community, then how do you even form friendships? 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:17.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:24.480 And I think people are on that now because like more more spaces are now doing, you know, like sober clubs, run clubs, book clubs. 00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:26.239 Like I feel like that's coming, yeah, yeah. 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:27.280 That lesson's kind of being. 00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:32.719 And that's what I'm saying, and that's why it's like we're now learning how to build a community. 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:36.159 Yeah, before communic put community was just going to the club. 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:37.199 Like, do you know what I'm saying? 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:39.280 That's where the term the scene comes from and stuff like that. 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:49.280 And it's just like, but we need to do, and that's why I say we we need to hold ourselves accountable for certain actions and say, like, okay, like let's keep it real. 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:51.360 I have loved this conversation. 00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:55.519 I have never agreed or disagreed at the same time as someone. 00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:03.679 I get it, but there's like you guys are not allowed to hang out after hours, I love it. 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:08.079 Because I find it so interesting, and like even if I disagree, I'm still like that's such a good take. 00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:10.000 I don't have to agree with it, but yeah, that's great. 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:10.719 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:12.079 So I I've loved it. 00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:13.119 I I hope you have too. 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:14.880 I hope it didn't come across like a no, no, no. 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.119 I mean, for me, it's like I don't live in my ego. 00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:24.559 My opinion, I know that I'm very heavily opinionated, and a lot of the things I talk about is is is how is an opinion that I've come across. 00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:30.960 That's why, even in the start of my book, I say to people, this is a structure that I think gay men should have. 00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:37.840 Now, anybody that wants to add to this, so I invite people to add like your understanding of the world and pull it into the book. 00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:41.760 Because what I wanted the gay blueprint to be is almost like a Bible for gay men. 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:47.920 And these are the things that it's about bringing inner peace to yourself, are the actions you do and bring in inner peace. 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:49.440 And that's what I feel like life is about. 00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:53.920 I don't feel like life is about reaching a state of happiness because happiness is an emotion, it's over. 00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:55.599 You can be happy today. 00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:59.280 I'll give you a million pounds right now and tell you're gonna die of cancer in two months. 00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:00.480 You're gonna be like the damn. 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:01.199 Yeah, yeah. 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.119 That happiness is instantly gone. 00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:12.960 But if you have a pe state of peace of mind, you're able to handle both situations, and that's why for me is anything that doesn't bring you to a state of peace, then that's things that we shouldn't be doing. 00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:14.880 Yeah, I've loved that. 00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:18.000 But lastly, plug any button. 00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:18.800 Oh, yeah, plug your butt. 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:19.519 Anything else that's coming. 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:33.199 Um, it's not necessarily a I am spilling up from a commercial perspective, but it the reason why I built it was to like to help people, like, to help people understand their pat some patterns. 00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:54.480 Some patterns will be recognizable to a lot of people, some patterns they may not, or you might know people that are recognised that are living in those patterns, and some of those patterns put you in a situation where you are taking doing things like chem sex, and it might be a thing where you're struggling with that, or struggling with like the intensity of how you start relationships and like dating and stuff like that. 00:49:54.559 --> 00:50:01.599 What the blue gay blueprint does, it it challenges you, it asks those deeper questions like why are you doing these behaviours? 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:08.320 It's not about it doesn't answer it's just it's it's asking you questions that you have to honestly answer. 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:23.440 And then what it does do is give you that framework where if you agree with this, then these are these are vows that you should be taking on a daily basis to avoid you getting into that place where your life is disturbed by peace, and that was the idea behind the blade blueprint. 00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:32.079 So yeah, I'm hoping that that message is echoed in the book, and you know, you people go out and buy it, and you know like self-reflective tool, like yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:32.800 That's very cool. 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:35.039 And soon to be on audible by me. 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:37.679 Thank you so much. 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:39.360 I appreciate you guys, man.