บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ What Founders Learn When Business Goes Wrong | ft. Conor McHugh

we're, we turned five this year. 00:02:09.362 --> 00:02:10.153 Um- Oh, congratulations. 00:02:10.213 --> 00:02:14.372 Yeah, yeah, so we'll be having a party in a few months- … so you'll be getting an invite to that. 00:02:14.372 --> 00:02:15.074 Um- Look forward to it. 00:02:15.622 --> 00:02:24.682 But yeah, look, my, my background, um, I guess I've a slightly different profile that I, I was an accountant, so I trained and qualified as an accountant with KPMG. 00:02:25.394 --> 00:02:35.342 Then I went and worked in industry for a year before having a, a mid-20s crisis, switched career completely, moved from finance into finance recruitment. 00:02:36.013 --> 00:02:44.842 Went to London, uh, joined Robert Walters in London, did a couple years with them, and then had the opportunity to transfer with them from London to Dubai. 00:02:45.104 --> 00:02:53.033 Did a couple years with them and then, uh, I guess I started my entrepreneurial journey, which, uh, has me here today. 00:02:53.402 --> 00:02:59.612 Before I go, start unpacking the journey, uh, Alchemy, where, how did that name come about? 00:02:59.663 --> 00:03:01.163 I know it's a famous name, right? 00:03:01.174 --> 00:03:05.763 It's, it's the story of turning, I think, lead- Metal into gold … metal to gold. 00:03:05.812 --> 00:03:06.492 Yeah … or into gold, yeah. 00:03:06.492 --> 00:03:10.263 So- So what, what, what was your kind of story behind that name? 00:03:10.263 --> 00:03:10.492 Yeah. 00:03:10.492 --> 00:03:21.193 No, um, it's an inter- obviously we'll get into it as the, as the conversation goes on, but before Alchemy, there was actually another company that, uh- Okay I went into a, a partnership post leaving Robert Walters. 00:03:21.283 --> 00:03:31.373 Um- Went very badly is the honest answer, but we actually tr- switched, uh, names from the company we were a part of, um, to another business. 00:03:31.443 --> 00:03:42.894 And, um, like everyone I guess, when you're thinking what are you gonna call a company, in recruitment every second company is named after a name- like Robert Walters, Michael Page, Robert Half. 00:03:42.902 --> 00:03:44.144 A lot of Roberts. 00:03:44.283 --> 00:03:47.492 Yeah, and it's all quite strong British names. 00:03:47.543 --> 00:03:51.532 Like Connor doesn't, you know, and, uh, the, my business part- at the time was Jones. 00:03:52.022 --> 00:03:58.473 Jones is probably quite a strong name, but, uh, Connor Jones wasn't really, uh, had a good, uh, flavor to it. 00:03:58.492 --> 00:04:12.099 So then we were looking at different names, and it was actually, um A contact of my ex-business partner who, uh, who actually had a business called Alchemy, but he said he wasn't using it, the name anymore, and he suggested the name. 00:04:12.330 --> 00:04:21.699 And he just said, I think he, he chose it because, uh, obviously in this part of the world, the book The Alchemist, um- Yeah… that's where it all stems from- Of course, yeah … um, which, it's a great book. 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:24.889 One of the few books I have read, but it's a it's a very good book. 00:04:25.278 --> 00:04:36.439 And yeah, I guess the whole idea in this part of the world, turning something into gold, um, is a pretty big thing, and I think the feedback we had has resonated quite well with Arab population. 00:04:36.608 --> 00:04:38.230 Um, so yeah, we went for it. 00:04:38.230 --> 00:04:42.858 So it was literally as simple as that, and here, here we are now with it- Nice … five years later. 00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:43.528 No, nice. 00:04:44.329 --> 00:04:47.809 I also wanna kinda go into your journey as an accountant to entrepreneur. 00:04:47.869 --> 00:04:47.889 Yeah. 00:04:48.218 --> 00:04:57.930 So you obviously worked for KPMG, so you didn't, you know, you didn't work for, like, some, you know, second tier accounting practice, and you didn't work for, like, an industry. 00:04:57.930 --> 00:05:01.500 You worked for one of the Big Four, uh, which is quite prestigious. 00:05:01.999 --> 00:05:05.889 Um, and, and then you went into setting up your own business. 00:05:07.009 --> 00:05:13.879 Now, most accountants, I'm guilty as well, we normally take the safe route and we set up an accounting firm. 00:05:14.468 --> 00:05:29.970 But you went and set up a, uh, recruitment firm, which is very different to the skillsets of an accountant because it's selling to a certain point, to a certain extent, and it's also understanding the needs of accountants from a recruitment point of view. 00:05:29.970 --> 00:05:31.899 So there's a bit of a HR element to it as well. 00:05:33.119 --> 00:05:39.459 So w- why is it that you d- you didn't set up a, an accounting firm and you went right into setting up a recruiting firm? 00:05:40.038 --> 00:05:46.918 Yeah, so I, I came out of university, I actually did accounting and finance- Yeah … in university, and in my A level equivalent, accounting was actually my best subject. 00:05:47.999 --> 00:05:51.529 Hence, I moved on to that, and the goal was to be, become an accountant. 00:05:51.619 --> 00:05:55.480 Um, and yeah, you, I was fortunate to get into the Big Four. 00:05:55.579 --> 00:05:59.728 Um, I was actually in Guernsey in the Channel Islands, so I'm from Dublin. 00:05:59.819 --> 00:06:02.250 Um, I came out of university in 2009. 00:06:03.608 --> 00:06:05.718 Obviously not the best time to be looking for a job, especially in Ireland. 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:11.259 Um, and basically the, the long and short was they were only hiring people who were super smart or on firsts. 00:06:11.348 --> 00:06:12.488 I wasn't, I was on, I got a 00:06:12.488 --> 00:06:15.629 1, so I actually spoke to a recruiter of all people. 00:06:15.629 --> 00:06:15.879 Hmm. 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:17.069 I think it was Robert Half. 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:23.369 Um, and they were like, "If you wanna get Big Four, you can get it, but you, you're gonna have to go to the Channel Islands." Hmm. 00:06:24.028 --> 00:06:28.540 And I was,

"Grand, no problem." Uh, so I had two buddies, they got jobs at PwC. 00:06:28.588 --> 00:06:32.019 I got a job with, uh, KPMG in Guernsey. 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:34.848 Um, and it was honestly probably the best four years of my life. 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:42.420 For people, for the accountants out there, to give you a feel for how poor I was, uh, I was on cash a bank for four years. 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:43.970 And some, some of the, the clients. 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:52.209 Like, my saving grace, if I'm honest, uh, the Guernsey office was probably 150 people, so a super small office for, for something like K- for a Big Four company. 00:06:53.038 --> 00:06:55.548 Really nice, good people, very social. 00:06:55.548 --> 00:06:58.619 They had a business, office business soccer team. 00:06:58.658 --> 00:07:09.983 I was actually the captain of it, and that actually helped me quite a lot- With building relationships within the whole company- Yeah'cause the, you know, I was center half, and the guy who center half beside me was a director who soon then became a partner. 00:07:10.744 --> 00:07:12.603 Scottish guy, Chris McLean, give him a shout-out. 00:07:13.002 --> 00:07:20.553 Having him on my side, you know, and other guys as the directors in the team, they all gave me respect because I, you know, I played okay football with them. 00:07:20.553 --> 00:07:20.603 Yeah. 00:07:20.603 --> 00:07:26.312 And we had, we obviously went out on nights out afterwards, so you're building a good bond with people that are well above my pay. 00:07:26.324 --> 00:07:26.343 Mm-hmm. 00:07:26.353 --> 00:07:27.704 You know, I was, I wasn't even qualified. 00:07:27.704 --> 00:07:28.762 I was still doing my exams at the time. 00:07:28.762 --> 00:07:29.192 Yeah. 00:07:29.202 --> 00:07:32.362 And you wouldn't get that exposure, I think, in a, in big fours in Dublin or London. 00:07:32.973 --> 00:07:36.793 So if I'm honest, that was probably one of my saving graces that I was quite social. 00:07:36.963 --> 00:07:37.394 Still am. 00:07:37.774 --> 00:07:45.932 Um, but you, you build relationships with guys that, like, deep down they probably knew this guy is not good at audit, but he'll get by. 00:07:46.392 --> 00:07:49.702 Like, I, I passed my exams first time, so the exams and everything was- That is an achievement. 00:07:49.702 --> 00:07:50.132 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:50.262 --> 00:07:51.052 First time passes. 00:07:51.093 --> 00:07:57.043 Uh, so I was actually quite book smart, but the application, I just wasn't that good. 00:07:57.213 --> 00:08:03.853 Um, I wasn't passionate about it, and so I did my four years there, um, in KPMG Guernsey. 00:08:03.853 --> 00:08:05.973 Qualified, then I went traveling around the world for a year. 00:08:06.173 --> 00:08:09.533 Um, but the, the, the four years in Guernsey, like, the audit was good. 00:08:09.733 --> 00:08:12.692 Like, in, in somewhere like the Channel Islands it's very financial services driven. 00:08:12.853 --> 00:08:13.142 Yeah. 00:08:13.142 --> 00:08:21.583 Um-' Cause you have a lot of, uh, hold, trusts and- Yeah, lots of trusts … holding companies Fund administrators- Yeah … everything, so, like, w- I wouldn't say it's the most exciting audits you could be doing. 00:08:21.634 --> 00:08:21.853 Yeah. 00:08:21.884 --> 00:08:24.463 Um, but look, it, it was, it was a great experience. 00:08:24.463 --> 00:08:25.783 I wouldn't change it for the world. 00:08:25.872 --> 00:08:32.822 Um, and if, if you ever bumped into any of my ex-colleagues I think they'd give you a pretty similar, uh, overview there of it. 00:08:33.024 --> 00:08:39.003 Um, and then when I came back from my traveling, I did a year of contracting. 00:08:39.013 --> 00:08:39.033 Yeah. 00:08:39.094 --> 00:08:43.712 So I did my four years audit, wanted to move into industry. 00:08:44.673 --> 00:08:50.198 There's two ways you look at it FP&A or, uh, like a reporting role. 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:55.179 So I did- FP&A is basically, um, financial planning and ana- analysis. 00:08:55.208 --> 00:08:55.469 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:55.469 --> 00:09:02.649 So it's- Just for the use- Yeah … the, the, the- Yeah, so sorry, it's, it's the sexier role- … deemed the more tr- you know, commercially focused role. 00:09:02.708 --> 00:09:02.869 Yeah. 00:09:03.339 --> 00:09:06.759 So I did a, a couple months in State Street as a financial reporter. 00:09:06.938 --> 00:09:07.809 Again- Canary Wharf? 00:09:08.198 --> 00:09:09.188 Uh, no, I was actually back in Dublin. 00:09:09.269 --> 00:09:09.519 Okay. 00:09:09.528 --> 00:09:24.649 So, um, so I think I did two or three months of that and I was like, "Jesus, I'm not doing this for the rest of my life." Um, again, just no passion for it, so I was like, "Well, you've tried audit, you've tried the reporting side, this financial planning is probably the, the last side for you." Yeah. 00:09:24.649 --> 00:09:28.999 So I actually got a maternity cover contract with Danone, the, the yogurt company. 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:29.269 Yep. 00:09:29.509 --> 00:09:33.928 Um, and I did that for eight months, and it was good. 00:09:34.619 --> 00:09:40.099 Um, it was more interesting 'cause you're dealing with something, a product, all that sort of stuff. 00:09:40.099 --> 00:09:48.519 But again, my, my ex-boss, uh, if she listens, her name is Kinga, but, uh, she was just a machine. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.938 This Polish lady, didn't, didn't use a mouse. 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:54.788 The stuff she could do on- Keyboards… uh, yeah, yeah. 00:09:54.798 --> 00:09:58.789 I was just like, "I am never getting to that level." I'd have, I've no desire to get to that level. 00:09:58.859 --> 00:09:59.099 Yeah. 00:09:59.359 --> 00:10:08.500 So what I actually learned was that despite this FP&A or financial planning being deemed as a super commercial role, probably only 10% of it actually was, that had my strengths. 00:10:08.500 --> 00:10:15.340 Those, you know, you might do a monthly board meeting or present figures and

chat about them, which I was quite comfortable with. 00:10:15.389 --> 00:10:15.610 Yeah. 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:31.573 But then the rest of it, I'm just, you're on a laptop and you're just banging out reports, and, uh, again, I, I just, it just dawned on me that- I would just be a classic 40-year-old finance manager, which is fine. 00:10:31.972 --> 00:10:35.763 Um, I don't wanna, you know, but I just thought there's more to life than that. 00:10:35.763 --> 00:10:44.202 I just don't wanna be a guy who's just- Yeah … coasting by while all my peer group would be becoming f- financial managers, controllers- Mm-hmm … directors, CFOs. 00:10:44.203 --> 00:10:46.592 I, I just didn't have the ability to get that level. 00:10:46.863 --> 00:10:47.102 Yep. 00:10:47.293 --> 00:11:07.062 Um, so then, yeah, I th- had a, yeah, I think I had a bit of a, I said a mid-20s crisis, and I was like, "What have I done?" You know, you spent three years uni, four years in Guernsey, seven years, eight years then contracting, all just doing accounting, and now you wanna just pack it, bin it all off. 00:11:07.423 --> 00:11:09.993 Um, so I looked at lots of different jobs. 00:11:10.013 --> 00:11:21.273 I wanted something more salesy, something more commercial, and then someone actually just randomly s- said, "Oh, have you ever thought about recruitment?" At this point, did you think about setting up a business, or were you just thinking about ch- switching careers? 00:11:21.283 --> 00:11:21.842 Switching career. 00:11:21.932 --> 00:11:22.253 Okay. 00:11:22.363 --> 00:11:29.903 Switching career, so yeah, so I was… Looked into it, did a lot of research, um, then started applying for roles. 00:11:29.903 --> 00:11:30.113 Yeah. 00:11:30.143 --> 00:11:30.693 Applying for roles. 00:11:30.693 --> 00:11:41.653 Actually, it was actually initially in Dubai with, uh, one of the biggest recruitment companies in Dubai, and they actually… I, I, I got through four or five rounds of interviews and then missed out in the last round, and I was convinced I was getting the job. 00:11:42.312 --> 00:11:44.743 Like, all the meetings, I went to London to meet people. 00:11:45.653 --> 00:12:04.484 I was set to be going, and then I'll never forget, when I did get rejected, I just put the phone down, then I just went straight onto, uh, three recruitment companies in Dublin and London and just applied straight away- Mm for three of the big names, and then, um, interviewed with the guys in Dublin, flew over to London, met them all. 00:12:04.874 --> 00:12:08.993 Um, I had op- had op- was fortunate to have offers in bo- both places. 00:12:09.043 --> 00:12:11.783 Um, I chose London because Dublin was just too easy. 00:12:11.793 --> 00:12:13.972 It was too, uh… I was living at home. 00:12:14.102 --> 00:12:14.873 I was under no pressure. 00:12:14.883 --> 00:12:18.802 While moving to London, you'd be putting yourself outside your, your comfort zone. 00:12:19.083 --> 00:12:20.722 So that's the first trait of an

entrepreneur. 00:12:20.923 --> 00:12:21.133 Yeah. 00:12:21.613 --> 00:12:44.923 Well, I, I knew 'cause I just knew if I was living at home, I'd be coasting, while- Yeah … if I effectively took myself out, and when I went to London, joined Robert Walters, great company, great opportunity, but I went from, you know, being on a, a modest salary as a qu- post qualified accountant to, you know, graduate levels, uh, salaries, like, there was no, uh… So you're d- back down to the bottom, everything matters. 00:12:45.053 --> 00:12:48.393 My friend group at the time, they're obviously a bit more senior than me. 00:12:48.393 --> 00:12:50.552 You know, I'm in my late 20s now at this stage. 00:12:50.623 --> 00:12:50.643 Yeah. 00:12:50.673 --> 00:12:58.993 Um, yeah, coming on to 30, while these other guys have been… And especially in London, it's an expensive place, um, so you had to graft pretty quickly. 00:12:59.432 --> 00:13:02.332 Um, and yeah, look, it went pretty well. 00:13:02.333 --> 00:13:06.342 It was… The reason why I loved recruitment or any sales job is that you find out very quickly if you're good at it. 00:13:06.602 --> 00:13:06.942 Mm. 00:13:07.352 --> 00:13:08.433 You know, you learn pretty quickly. 00:13:08.433 --> 00:13:12.374 While in accounting, I had to do four years- Yeah… with KPMG. 00:13:13.293 --> 00:13:15.982 At the end of it, I did the exams, but was I good at accounting? 00:13:15.982 --> 00:13:16.182 No. 00:13:16.182 --> 00:13:21.052 While in sales, you couldn't last four years- Mm… unless you were pretty good, to an extent. 00:13:21.053 --> 00:13:28.066 So, so I did a couple years there, and then I, I, I moved across to, uh- To Dubai with, with Robert Walters. 00:13:28.424 --> 00:13:33.404 Um, and then this is probably where it gets a bit now more spicy for the conversation. 00:13:33.664 --> 00:13:36.446 Um, so I did a few years with Robert Walters in Dubai. 00:13:37.044 --> 00:13:41.565 I then got approached by my previous business partner to set up a business with him. 00:13:41.826 --> 00:13:42.684 Yeah. 00:13:42.725 --> 00:13:53.664 At the time, I was like, "Perfect." You know, for me, the success would be setting up a business, 'cause obviously a lot of people had doubted my move from finance into recruitment. 00:13:53.684 --> 00:14:00.336 You know, it's not a very common move for a lot of people, um, 'cause obviously accounting is deemed a lot more superior job than recruitment. 00:14:00.336 --> 00:14:01.585 It's a technical role as well, right? 00:14:01.605 --> 00:14:01.884 Yeah. 00:14:02.384 --> 00:14:04.764 So people, perceptions, all that sort of stuff. 00:14:04.806 --> 00:14:06.725 So my whole view was, you know, proving people wrong. 00:14:07.145 --> 00:14:11.785 So I was like, "This makes sense." The guy I went into the business with, he was considerably older. 00:14:12.225 --> 00:14:13.544 Um, so I was like, "This is a good fit. 00:14:13.565 --> 00:14:14.205 He's older. 00:14:14.985 --> 00:14:15.804 He's setting up here. 00:14:15.884 --> 00:14:16.845 I have a network." Yeah. 00:14:16.865 --> 00:14:17.705 "He'll help me learn. 00:14:17.884 --> 00:14:20.645 There's equity." And effectively, we set up in February 2020. 00:14:21.285 --> 00:14:22.605 This was before COVID, right? 00:14:22.664 --> 00:14:23.565 Yeah, a month before COVID. 00:14:23.585 --> 00:14:23.924 Yeah. 00:14:26.164 --> 00:14:30.504 So, so I had three months of gardening leave, December, January, February, November. 00:14:30.585 --> 00:14:32.105 And so I was like, "This is great. 00:14:32.166 --> 00:14:35.245 We're gonna f- you know, we're gonna smash everyone," young, naive. 00:14:36.284 --> 00:14:38.845 One month in, COVID. 00:14:38.946 --> 00:14:46.525 Uh, three months in, my business partner effectively, all the promises he had made, he basically couldn't deliver on. 00:14:46.605 --> 00:14:46.784 Yeah. 00:14:47.465 --> 00:14:49.845 All the talk of money this, you know, there was no money. 00:14:49.904 --> 00:14:50.325 Mm. 00:14:50.365 --> 00:15:09.173 Um, so I was sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place where, uh, I could have went back, and I, I wouldn't, maybe I wouldn't say I could have went back to Robert Walters, but- It would've been an easier option- Yeah because you go from a solid salary, stability, um, to effectively no money. 00:15:09.274 --> 00:15:09.504 Yeah. 00:15:09.724 --> 00:15:15.432 And, uh, obviously there's a, a bit of pride that you, I didn't wanna go back to them no matter what, or, um, that was just me. 00:15:15.903 --> 00:15:33.562 Um, so I sort of grinded it out with him and, uh, we, we effectively, we, and actually took a franchise out, um, of a big recruitment business, a global business, and again, naive by me, but these guys, they didn't give us the greatest amount of support during COVID, so we- I guess you had to pay for the brand, right? 00:15:33.562 --> 00:15:33.923 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:34.144 --> 00:15:41.413 Pay for this, and we were like, "What are we getting from these guys?" So yeah, we, we got hit pretty hardly, um, then lawyers got involved. 00:15:42.322 --> 00:15:45.504 At one point I had a, a legal letter for $1 million. 00:15:45.504 --> 00:15:45.852 Oh, wow. 00:15:46.014 --> 00:15:53.533 Uh, suings, they were trying to get us for the rest of the, of the franchise agreement- Yeah … so obviously this again, not checking the T's and C's. 00:15:53.702 --> 00:15:55.783 Um, but you know, that shook me pretty badly. 00:15:55.842 --> 00:16:14.143 Like, I remember I was actually on a night out and I remember we got the, got the email a- and I looked, it was like 10000, and I rang the previous partner and I was like, "Oh, it's not that bad, $100,000." He's like, "It's a million." So, uh, so then we had to basically get a mediator involved. 00:16:14.842 --> 00:16:18.994 It was pretty heavy stuff- Mm … especially for, that all happened the first six months. 00:16:19.332 --> 00:16:21.144 Of the bus- Yeah … when the business set up, yeah. 00:16:21.144 -->

00:16:21.173 Yeah. 00:16:21.173 --> 00:16:23.192 So, uh, you know, you learn pretty quickly. 00:16:23.623 --> 00:16:34.313 And then we eventually got to a deal with the, the franchisor and we had to pay them out a 10th of the things effectively, and once we got that, they were happy to let us break free. 00:16:34.493 --> 00:16:34.822 Mm. 00:16:35.533 --> 00:16:45.822 So yeah, we had to, uh… And this is the time where, especially for aspiring entrepreneurs, never be, never be put off by gray hairs. 00:16:46.663 --> 00:16:51.421 For me, I was- 32, 33 at the time. 00:16:52.671 --> 00:17:06.240 The other guy was in his 50s, and in my head the whole time I was like, "He's more senior, he gets it." And when he sort of went a bit off the rails, I was left just to run the business- Yeah while previously I was sort of in his shadow. 00:17:06.922 --> 00:17:11.701 And you learned, I learned pretty quickly that I actually don't need this guy. 00:17:12.510 --> 00:17:28.050 Um, and I al- I always, and to be fair, I always had a good relationship with him, and it was only actually when a few of my team members, that we still have today actually, they actually pulled me aside on a work dinner and said, "You know, we'll back you. 00:17:28.750 --> 00:17:30.280 You know, we'll stick with you. 00:17:30.520 --> 00:17:31.811 You can do it," blah, blah, blah. 00:17:31.811 --> 00:17:32.112 Mm-hmm. 00:17:32.112 --> 00:17:36.162 And that was actually the push I needed to, uh, to get out. 00:17:36.570 --> 00:17:36.810 Yeah. 00:17:37.111 --> 00:17:42.681 Um, and then it's, the tough thing, and as I said, choosing your business partner's probably the toughest thing in life. 00:17:42.902 --> 00:17:47.931 The whole thing is that it is like a divorce, and it gets super emotional. 00:17:48.050 --> 00:17:48.371 Yeah. 00:17:48.540 --> 00:17:52.050 Um, you know, there's, there's a lot involved. 00:17:52.061 --> 00:17:53.151 Who's gonna control the money? 00:17:53.751 --> 00:17:55.381 And it got very messy with him. 00:17:55.531 --> 00:17:59.951 So yeah, that was what led me on to where I am now, so yeah. 00:18:00.602 --> 00:18:05.771 No, I mean, it's, it's been a eventful journey for you, to say the least. 00:18:06.131 --> 00:18:13.580 And, um, obviously thank you for sharing your, your, your experience and what you've been through. 00:18:14.111 --> 00:18:19.330 I wanna kind of go more into the entrepreneurial part of it. 00:18:19.411 --> 00:18:45.810 And, you know, you mentioned you went through a lot of setbacks in your entrepreneurial journey and, you know, as an entrepreneur, there are some elements where it's a good life and you can work four hours a week on your business, but there are, the dark side of it is that you never know when the next setback is gonna come and you have to be, you have to be- And, and it comes Yeah, and it comes. 00:18:45.810 --> 00:18:46.241 It always comes. 00:18:46.241 --> 00:18:50.611 So how were you able to… What kind of advice would you give to other en- entrepreneurs? 00:18:50.611 --> 00:18:58.980 You know, you went through, um, having a letter on, on a Friday- Yeah … with a million dollars requesting that to come back to you. 00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:01.111 You went through- I've, I've had bank accounts frozen … messy divorce. 00:19:01.191 --> 00:19:02.310 I've had bank accounts frozen. 00:19:02.310 --> 00:19:03.270 Bank accounts frozen. 00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:03.661 Frozen. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.871 Like, it's not for everyone. 00:19:05.971 --> 00:19:17.473 Um, I guess I've always went through a lot of- Not resilience, but like in anything I've done, I've been reasonably good, but never the best. 00:19:17.854 --> 00:19:22.354 Like in sport, whatever sport I played, I was good, but never the top guy. 00:19:22.354 --> 00:19:26.053 So I've always been used to getting beaten, I guess, in some shape or form. 00:19:26.053 --> 00:19:27.313 I've never been the standout person. 00:19:27.313 --> 00:19:29.854 Even recruiting when I was billing, I was never number one. 00:19:29.874 --> 00:19:32.282 I was always maybe four or five out of whatever. 00:19:32.923 --> 00:19:44.063 So and being Irish and all these things, you, you know, you have to work a bit harder sometimes, um, to get anywhere, um, that's why there's so many Irish people all over the world. 00:19:44.232 --> 00:19:48.742 Um, the, the big thing I would say is it's not for everyone. 00:19:48.743 --> 00:19:49.782 It's super stressful. 00:19:49.843 --> 00:19:53.182 You know, there was a time where for probably two years, I woke 00:19:53.203 --> 00:19:54.394 00 AM every single night. 00:19:54.482 --> 00:19:54.782 Mm. 00:19:55.792 --> 00:19:56.212 Every night. 00:19:56.353 --> 00:19:58.682 00 PM, 00:19:58.682 --> 00:20:00.403 00 AM, I can remember just looking 00:20:00.453 --> 00:20:04.803 00 AM, and that's obviously a stress in the body. 00:20:04.982 --> 00:20:05.212 Yeah. 00:20:05.273 --> 00:20:08.203 Um, and it does come back from time to time. 00:20:08.403 --> 00:20:15.413 Um, so you need to be willing to have that, um, because it's, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. 00:20:15.433 --> 00:20:18.682 You know, even having the bank account frozen, like that was an absolute nightmare. 00:20:18.792 --> 00:20:20.053 That went on for nearly four months. 00:20:20.173 --> 00:20:29.202 So those things, like the biggest things running a business, like we're, like don't get me wrong, we're a small business, we're 10 heads, but you know, my view is that you've nine, you're responsible for nine people's lives. 00:20:29.273 --> 00:20:29.604 Yeah. 00:20:29.682 --> 00:20:31.653 And you have to put them ahead of you. 00:20:32.314 --> 00:20:42.042 If you are a selfish person, you won't last in the long term in entrepreneurship because, uh, when times are super b- tough, like the most important payment every month is salaries. 00:20:42.893 --> 00:20:50.113 Everything else, salaries and rent, everything else you can play around with, it will get paid,

but that's the two things which you are on the- Mm you are on the line for. 00:20:50.553 --> 00:21:02.132 And like there's times where- Let's just say we're halfway through the month, I just pay salaries there, 'cause in my head I know I'm not on the hook to pay that for another 45 days now. 00:21:02.162 --> 00:21:02.642 Yeah. 00:21:03.261 --> 00:21:05.711 Just that's the most important payment, and staff see that. 00:21:05.862 --> 00:21:12.231 Some might be like, "Why are you paying me so early?" It's like, "Well, do you wanna be paid at all?" The thing is, you're 24/7, you're- Yeah … you're on. 00:21:12.271 --> 00:21:24.681 Like, even I'm going away next month, fortunately back to Ireland, but, you know, it's, you're a baby, and if you have an entrepreneur who says, "Oh, I can switch off for two months," I don't think you are, because you can't. 00:21:24.682 --> 00:21:25.250 You shouldn't. 00:21:25.290 --> 00:21:27.570 Like, it, it is, it's in your DNA. 00:21:27.570 --> 00:21:28.662 It's something you're proud of. 00:21:29.201 --> 00:21:34.122 You know, I would never want to… Like, e- even people say to me, "Do you wanna retire?" I couldn't think of anything worse than retiring. 00:21:34.590 --> 00:21:37.092 You know, you get bored of playing golf every Tuesday- … quick enough. 00:21:37.361 --> 00:21:52.320 But, like, amount of people, I listen to so many podcasts and they get these recruiters on, and they honestly say it's the worst day of their life when they, they got bought out and they sold their business, because then they go from the person that is wanted every day. 00:21:52.491 --> 00:22:01.351 I wake up every day to probably 20 messages, 18 are probably muck, of people looking for jobs or whatever, two of them are actually of interest maybe. 00:22:01.352 --> 00:22:05.230 But you go from being that person to nobody wants you. 00:22:05.310 --> 00:22:05.671 Yeah. 00:22:06.071 --> 00:22:09.531 And, uh, you know, that's why for me, my dad, he has his own business. 00:22:09.531 --> 00:22:13.471 He's an electrician, small electrician business, and, like, he couldn't think of anything worse than retiring. 00:22:13.471 --> 00:22:22.510 He says, "Well, I'd have to spend more time with your mother." Uh, you know, she'd be just- … having, having me doing jobs around the house, moving a pot from here to here, and then next week moving it back. 00:22:22.510 --> 00:22:28.101 But, like, that's his livelihood, and, you know, there's, there is a big statistic when people retire, they die quite quickly. 00:22:28.352 --> 00:22:28.571 Mm. 00:22:28.621 --> 00:22:35.010 Um, there is something like that, there's those sort of stats, because they lose their, their buzz, their energy, and everyone thinks it's great. 00:22:36.371 --> 00:22:40.421 You know, you could go off and be in the sun or play golf every day. 00:22:40.431 --> 00:22:41.840 You get bored of those things quick enough. 00:22:41.852 --> 00:22:42.641 You need purpose in your life. 00:22:42.661 --> 00:22:43.631 You need, exactly, purpose. 00:22:43.711 --> 00:22:45.961 Yes, probably that, instead of me waffling there, purpose is the word. 00:22:46.181 --> 00:22:46.391 Yeah. 00:22:46.401 --> 00:22:48.901 But for me, I, I never wanna sell. 00:22:49.191 --> 00:22:54.691 Um, and also it's a very hard business to sell, but it's like, what, what, what next after that? 00:22:54.701 --> 00:22:54.721 Yeah. 00:22:54.941 --> 00:23:01.771 And I, I get it for, for, for different businesses, of course there's different things you can sell, then do something else, but this is a people business. 00:23:01.942 --> 00:23:03.820 Um, so what are you without the people? 00:23:04.601 --> 00:23:07.151 No, very good points that you, you mentioned. 00:23:07.211 --> 00:23:22.471 Um, I also wanna s- mention that obviously you, you said that paying salar- staff salaries is the most important thing for you, um, in terms of payments, and I think that is a very important perspective. 00:23:22.832 --> 00:23:29.740 Because, you know, they recently brought out the law where- It's been the first- in the UAE where you got paid all your salaries by the first of the month, right? 00:23:29.851 --> 00:23:30.631 Or the previous month. 00:23:31.270 --> 00:23:42.398 And, you know, there have been businesses who, and I know businesses, that probably look at staff salaries as- Just any other cost, but you can't do that. 00:23:42.638 --> 00:23:57.388 You have to make sure that you pay the people who you've taken on, you know, first, and, and I, uh, admire that, and I think that's something that is very important, especially as you're, as you mentioned, you're looking after their livelihoods. 00:23:57.888 --> 00:23:58.700 And they've got kids. 00:23:58.729 --> 00:24:04.888 What… Yeah, what, what got you to kind of… You think differently to a lot of entrepreneurs- Yeah … which you shouldn't. 00:24:04.888 --> 00:24:09.849 Well, well, well, yeah, one thing as well, uh, it just came into my head, so I wanna get this point across, and it's actually quite relevant for now. 00:24:09.849 --> 00:24:31.950 I'm not sure when this is gonna be released, but obviously we're sort of in the middle of this conflict, and in recruitment, we see who are the good companies and who are the bad companies- Yeah because we get phone calls from candidates, "I've been let go. I've been put on 50% salary cut." And there's so many entrepreneurs in this country who, when the times are good, they're happy to take all the money. 00:24:32.078 --> 00:24:32.249 Yeah. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:37.378 Especially in the last four or five years, the vast majority of businesses in UE have been flying it. 00:24:37.999 --> 00:24:49.430 So these entrepreneurs, these business owners that, you know, when the times are good, they're happy, they're getting, you know, their war chest, no promotions, no raises for the staff who've, without those staff, you know, your business is nothing. 00:24:49.549 --> 00:24:49.849 Yeah. 00:24:50.209

--> 00:25:02.519 So the big issue I have with a lot of people at the moment in this part of the world is that there's been such a knee-jerk reaction with the companies that, okay, yes, it's tough times, but, like, you don't just get rid of everyone. 00:25:02.528 --> 00:25:06.529 Mm. Like, they, they are the same people that helps your business when you're trying to build it. 00:25:06.579 --> 00:25:06.920 Yeah. 00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:08.288 You know, they're still doing well. 00:25:08.479 --> 00:25:13.729 Like, anyone, you know, you shouldn't be p- someone who's on 12K a month, you put them to 6K, 50% pay cut. 00:25:14.058 --> 00:25:14.989 Like, it's disgusting. 00:25:15.109 --> 00:25:15.808 Some of them carry on. 00:25:16.409 --> 00:25:20.339 While, you know, the owner might be on 50, 70, 100, you take the, you take the hit. 00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:22.699 Like, that's what real leadership actually is. 00:25:23.229 --> 00:25:29.970 Um, and I do think for entrepreneurs that if that sounds like you, the, the latter person, don't waste your time. 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:31.000 You'll be found out eventually. 00:25:31.109 --> 00:25:40.279 We o- obviously run an accounting firm as well, and we have seen a few businesses that have probably cut a bit too much too early. 00:25:40.588 --> 00:25:50.318 Um, yes, they went through COVID, and COVID was a long period, but, you know, we've been lucky that we've, we've now got ships passing through the Strait of Hormuz now. 00:25:50.650 --> 00:26:00.858 Not open fully, um, but things, the, the thing about the UA, it's quite resilient in the sense that a lot of businesses pivoted and were able to find a way through. 00:26:01.419 --> 00:26:11.059 Um, and, you know, maybe some of the rash decisions that they took, they probably could have delayed it or waited a bit, a little bit longer. 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:12.229 It's a tougher market now. 00:26:12.598 --> 00:26:16.529 Um, I don't wanna bore listeners with recruitment, but, uh, you know, it's harder to get people now. 00:26:16.548 --> 00:26:17.289 People have left. 00:26:17.419 --> 00:26:18.679 There's not the same amount of people coming in. 00:26:18.989 --> 00:26:25.286 I wanna talk about, obviously- The hiring process and h- you know, how to hire. 00:26:25.355 --> 00:26:39.635 So your subject matter domain expertise is hiring people for businesses, and one of the biggest problems that I see with small businesses, entrepreneurs, is finding that right person, because when you hire someone, it's make or break. 00:26:40.125 --> 00:26:43.424 They don't really have the budget to hire three, four people to make one of them work. 00:26:44.045 --> 00:26:52.185 So usually they hire number two, or they hire a specialist person, and they have to kind of literally, um, hit the ground running. 00:26:52.724 --> 00:27:03.115 So when you're hiring for your team, or when you're hiring for other businesses, what advice would you give in terms of qualities and the process that they

should do? 00:27:03.836 --> 00:27:18.404 The biggest mistake companies make is hiring a bad person- Yep… um, because it can be destructive for the whole rest of the company, especially, a- again, to use recruitment, for example, uh, we, we've been quite fortunate we haven't had any person that fits in that realm. 00:27:18.404 --> 00:27:22.555 But you, you could hire someone who's really, really good, but they can just ruin everything else in the business. 00:27:22.625 --> 00:27:22.645 Yeah. 00:27:22.654 --> 00:27:27.595 Um, and that's where the, the cultural nuances of UAE really come in. 00:27:27.775 --> 00:27:39.805 You know, h- how, uh … And, and I think people coming into the region, they need to be aware that, you know, the culture here, if you're coming from London, for example, you know, people go for beers on the streets on a Thursday or, you know. 00:27:39.994 --> 00:27:40.944 That doesn't happen here. 00:27:41.006 --> 00:27:41.204 Mm-hmm. 00:27:41.215 --> 00:27:42.394 People drive into work. 00:27:42.454 --> 00:27:47.756 You know, we did an event last Friday, 150 people, half the people were non-alcoholic. 00:27:47.756 --> 00:27:50.375 You know, you've a massive Muslim population. 00:27:50.375 --> 00:28:05.394 You know, it, it's not the same, um, as you c- as you … So I think o- o- on the hiring front, it's so … Like, this, I could go on at this all night, but it's, it's so hard 'cause in an interview everyone's gonna tell you all the things you wanna hear. 00:28:06.115 --> 00:28:07.375 Um- So you find that as well, then? 00:28:07.425 --> 00:28:08.085 Yeah, of course. 00:28:08.934 --> 00:28:11.815 People listening to me today probably think that this guy's just going on. 00:28:12.434 --> 00:28:13.035 Yeah, of course. 00:28:13.036 --> 00:28:14.115 Like, an interview's a funny thing. 00:28:14.115 --> 00:28:16.315 Like, you know, this could, this could be deemed an interview. 00:28:16.414 --> 00:28:17.365 We're just chatting for an hour. 00:28:17.384 --> 00:28:17.704 Yeah. 00:28:17.805 --> 00:28:18.904 Doesn't mean I'm actually good at my job. 00:28:19.724 --> 00:28:20.095 You know? 00:28:20.345 --> 00:28:26.285 I could be the worst entrepreneur in the world, I could be the worst business leader in the world, but it's just me trying to provide you a narrative. 00:28:26.585 --> 00:28:30.515 Um, so in finance, it, it's tricky. 00:28:30.615 --> 00:28:38.454 Um, the difference in this part of the world is that sometimes the best candidate actually doesn't get the job- Mm'cause the boss doesn't want someone too good to come in below. 00:28:39.085 --> 00:28:50.871 So that's a big- So you have the issue with kind of someone being a bit, um- Insecure Yeah, super insecure In, in- Super insecure. 00:28:50.871 --> 00:29:14.330 But here, if you're in most other parts of the world's mature markets, and I'm just referencing this back to finance, so if you have a good finance controller, a good finance director, I've seen CFOs purposely not pick the best

candidate for FT position, 'cause in the back of their head, because there's lacking governance in companies, one day the chairman or whoever could just be like, "Well, get rid of the CFO. 00:29:15.511 --> 00:29:20.211 This lad costs us 70%, 60%, and let's just promote him in." Mm. And that happened, and that has happened too, yeah. 00:29:20.211 --> 00:29:20.751 That does happen. 00:29:20.871 --> 00:29:21.183 Yeah, that does happen. 00:29:21.183 --> 00:29:21.621 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:22.211 --> 00:29:26.090 So yeah, it's, there is people are a bit insecure. 00:29:26.321 --> 00:29:30.201 Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a v- super complex market. 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:31.740 Everybody has different hiring styles. 00:29:31.821 --> 00:29:32.090 Yeah. 00:29:32.151 --> 00:29:35.682 Um- What, what is a s- hiring style that you think has been s- successful? 00:29:35.682 --> 00:29:36.031 Slow. 00:29:36.922 --> 00:29:37.330 Slow hiring? 00:29:37.330 --> 00:29:37.601 I don't know. 00:29:38.662 --> 00:29:41.561 A successful hiring style is fast feedback. 00:29:42.151 --> 00:29:52.221 You know, what I always say to people, there's certain companies here where they have such a bad reputation, because this is a country of expats, 90% of people. 00:29:52.261 --> 00:29:54.701 People go out, they socialize, they have lunch, breakfast. 00:29:54.971 --> 00:29:56.391 "Oh, you're interviewing for that company? 00:29:56.421 --> 00:30:05.342 Oh, I hate them." "I had a really bad experience with them." They, you know… I think the most common thing here, and recruiters are at blame as well here, so to be clear, it's, it's all about feedback. 00:30:05.391 --> 00:30:05.651 Yeah. 00:30:05.921 --> 00:30:09.181 And I actually work out who the good clients are, are the ones who actually give feedback. 00:30:09.332 --> 00:30:09.592 Mm. 00:30:10.030 --> 00:30:14.230 So if you have three people interview, usually what happens is,"Let's just take Rayhan forward. 00:30:14.260 --> 00:30:15.780 Forget Connor and forget Tom." Mm. 00:30:16.182 --> 00:30:16.471 " Bye. 00:30:17.211 --> 00:30:23.430 We like Rayhan." So they're, they're good clients, they'll say, "Yeah, ran for it. 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:28.829 However, if you want to jump on a quick call, I'll give you feedback for Connor and for Tom." Yeah. 00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:40.429 Or else they'll send you an email and say, "He talked too much, he was late, he was, wasn't dressed professionally." But these are the things which these candidates who are actually investing time, it could change their next interview process. 00:30:40.979 --> 00:30:50.078 Um, so yeah, it's, it's a two-way street, and I think what's gonna happen more and more now in the time we're in in UE- Yeah… candidates are gonna be more picky. 00:30:50.619 --> 00:30:52.608 I want to flip it to the candidate side. 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.409 I've noticed the last few years, salaries going sky high. 00:30:57.778 --> 00:30:57.980 Mm-hmm. 00:30:58.579 --> 00:31:12.048 Um, and there's a number of factors for that, and I obviously speak to a lot of entrepreneurs, and many entrepreneurs, small businesses, maybe bigger businesses can weather the increased salaries. 00:31:12.118 --> 00:31:18.909 But small businesses, you know, if you're paying someone 10K and then all of a sudden they want 30K, that's a big jump in terms of- Yeah what you can afford. 00:31:20.278 --> 00:31:24.598 What, do you know, from your point of view, what's been the dynamics behind that? 00:31:26.858 --> 00:31:28.108 Uh- And have you seen that as well? 00:31:28.109 --> 00:31:31.778 Yeah, look, it's, greed is obviously a big thing. 00:31:31.878 --> 00:31:32.189 Mm-hmm. 00:31:32.369 --> 00:31:39.169 Because you get a lot of candidates that go through a process just to get an offer, so they can go back to the boss and go, "Match that or else I'm off." Mm-hmm. 00:31:39.449 --> 00:31:40.229 Uh, that happens. 00:31:40.308 --> 00:31:43.159 And it's, it's more junior level, mid-level- Yeah … roles. 00:31:43.769 --> 00:31:47.788 And what a lot of people forget is that, yes, you might get more salary, but are you working more? 00:31:47.919 --> 00:31:48.259 Mm-hmm. 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:49.509 And people forget that. 00:31:49.679 --> 00:32:09.009 You know, if you've got a good number, if you're respected, you go into a different company, like the amount of people I speak to, es- especially senior guys that make a move and they're like, "What am I doing here?" Like, it's like, "I'm working all weekend, I've already fallen out with my boss." And I think to your point with entrepreneurs and founders of companies, these guys are a different beast to a CEO of a company. 00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:09.559 Yeah. 00:32:09.808 --> 00:32:15.439 Um, because, like, you're questioning them, and they, there's emotion involved. 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:21.298 While usually CEOs of big companies, they're super corporate, they went through the channels of life to get to that level. 00:32:21.368 --> 00:32:21.719 Mm-hmm. 00:32:21.818 --> 00:32:23.719 While a founder could be six months in as a founder. 00:32:23.909 --> 00:32:24.249 Yeah. 00:32:24.449 --> 00:32:43.338 Um, so if you come in, like we, we've a fraction CFO working with us now, C- a guy called Carl, and he was like,"What the hell have you been doing to this company? It's an absolute mess." Because previously we just had a, you know, a, a junior bookkeeper inter- team doing it, which was fine, but, you know, if you want to get to the next levels, um, you need to clean up your books. 00:32:43.388 --> 00:32:43.568 Yeah. 00:32:43.598 --> 00:32:52.548 And that's the biggest thing with any founder of a business, especially a sales-led business, where one side of the business really can accelerate while the back office just stagnates sometimes. 00:32:52.589 --> 00:33:04.739 Um, so I know sometimes for me, even him asking me questions, I'm, not that I get my back up, but, uh, you know, he, his job, the accountant's job, or the

fraction CFO, whoever it is, their job is to ask you difficult questions. 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:05.318 Of course, yeah. 00:33:05.388 --> 00:33:09.558 If you've got a guy who's your best mate, then he's probably not the right person for the job. 00:33:09.558 --> 00:33:17.632 Because the thing is with, with founders- They're probably sometimes doing things that they shouldn't be doing, and they just … Because that's the norm. 00:33:18.172 --> 00:33:26.261 And as tax now has become more and more prevalent, um, there's rules and regulations to follow which probably weren't there previously. 00:33:27.112 --> 00:33:27.691 I think that was the point. 00:33:27.692 --> 00:33:33.391 Even back to my point when I was just withdrawing cash from the business, that was years ago when there was no VAT or anything. 00:33:33.391 --> 00:33:33.760 Yeah. 00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:34.721 Like, you could just do anything. 00:33:35.361 --> 00:33:41.491 I remember telling my friends back home, they're like, "That's just-" You can't do that back home. 00:33:41.491 --> 00:33:41.531 Yeah. 00:33:41.531 --> 00:33:57.560 You're obviously an accountant who w- who was able to, uh, transition to more of a sales role, and as, as an entrepreneur, sales is very important because we've had previous guests and we've I've asked the question, what's the one thing an entrepreneur should be good at? 00:33:57.560 --> 00:34:03.781 And that's selling, because at the end of the day, they need to be able to bring value to the market and extract that value as well. 00:34:04.290 --> 00:34:07.310 And most accountants, in the beginning, are not very good at selling. 00:34:08.771 --> 00:34:19.920 How … What, what are the tips that you would give to an entrepreneur, may not be an accountant, maybe like an engineer or a doctor or, you know, someone in the technical field who's not been in sales? 00:34:20.300 --> 00:34:21.891 What kind of advice would you give? 00:34:22.822 --> 00:34:27.001 What's worked for you to kind of bring in business and- You gotta spend money to make money. 00:34:27.782 --> 00:34:29.902 That's the simplest thing I would say in, for any entrepreneur. 00:34:29.961 --> 00:34:30.202 Yeah. 00:34:30.311 --> 00:34:35.481 You need to be willing to spend, and if, if it means that you get no salary that month- Mm … so be it. 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.030 So does it mean that you take a 50% pay cut for that month? 00:34:38.110 --> 00:34:38.610 So be it. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:46.690 Mm. Because the biggest reason why I think we've been relatively successful is we're quite high, we've quite a big risk appetite. 00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:47.170 Mm. 00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:53.190 Um, you know, for anyone that's followed our journey, you will, the one thing you'll probably say about us is that we always do events. 00:34:53.322 --> 00:34:53.541 Yep. 00:34:53.822 --> 00:34:54.391 Always. 00:34:54.471 --> 00:34:58.650 Mm. From four or five, whatever years ago, always events, events, events, events. 00:34:59.590 --> 00:35:03.831 At the first probably three- These are events for accountants who- Yeah, network- … and CFOs Yeah. 00:35:03.831 --> 00:35:03.860 Networking … and everybody. 00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:07.871 Yep … networking evenings, breakfasts, uh, golf day, whatever. 00:35:07.871 --> 00:35:17.971 Just any sort of event to bring people together, to bring your network together, and the reason why, like the first two or three years, did we make an ROI on it? 00:35:17.971 --> 00:35:21.201 Probably a little bit, but we probably lost money quite a bit, and it was all coming out of my pocket. 00:35:22.050 --> 00:35:22.931 We'd no sponsor. 00:35:23.271 --> 00:35:25.061 Thankfully we have Alan now, give them a shout-out. 00:35:25.681 --> 00:35:50.800 Um, but we built a value proposition, and that was always in the back of my mind, um, that if you can create value and people from the outside- Yep and they look at you and they're like, "Okay, Conor Alchemy, he has good relationships with my potential customers." Then if you're savvy, you go to, you work out who these companies are. 00:35:50.849 --> 00:35:51.219 Mm-hmm. 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:59.219 This company Workvivo, we, who have been our sponsor for the CFO Ball for the last few years, uh, a human resource tech company, um, platform. 00:36:00.018 --> 00:36:02.039 They seen that that's our customers. 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.358 Conor's actually got our customers. 00:36:03.409 --> 00:36:03.650 Yeah. 00:36:04.378 --> 00:36:05.969 And again, it's all about visibility. 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:11.119 Um, and again, the saying I always use, and that's why we're very visible on LinkedIn. 00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:15.708 If you're not visible on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is the easiest way to promote your business in the world. 00:36:15.769 --> 00:36:16.639 Costs you nothing. 00:36:17.019 --> 00:36:17.360 Nothing. 00:36:17.449 --> 00:36:25.568 Like, we get these calls from PR companies like, "Oh, pay me a retainer of $5,000." I was like, "I don't need you." You know, I can just post a thing of myself and get plenty of views. 00:36:25.588 --> 00:36:33.778 But the, uh … What, what people forget is that, you know, if, if people wanna work with you, they'll work with you. 00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:34.780 Yeah. 00:36:34.789 --> 00:36:37.469 If they don't wanna work with you, they won't work with you. 00:36:38.048 --> 00:36:43.170 But if they never know about you, they can't work with you, and that's why for us it's all about visibility. 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:44.938 It's all about people knowing. 00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:46.989 And look, I'm sure there's times we've done bad jobs. 00:36:47.018 --> 00:36:47.778 We're not perfect. 00:36:48.318 --> 00:36:49.949 We're recruiters, so. 00:36:50.128 --> 00:36:58.630 But if pe- you need people knowing about you and, and people refer you, and if you're always seen to do the right thing, your optics are good, it's gonna compound. 00:36:59.108 --> 00:37:00.969 You know, we

sponsor a Gaelic football team. 00:37:00.969 --> 00:37:01.668 I'm Irish. 00:37:02.429 --> 00:37:13.449 You know, I know, I, I like enjoy Gaelic football, but I know for Irish people they'll be like, "Oh, I didn't like Conor, but now I do 'cause I know he likes-" "… he, he sponsors that Gaelic team," sort of thing. 00:37:13.449 --> 00:37:16.398 And these are the things which entrepreneurs need to think about. 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:18.599 Mm. You need to think about, well, how am I perceived? 00:37:18.659 --> 00:37:22.889 And of course, in a g- in a way, I know if some people don't like me, that's great. 00:37:23.309 --> 00:37:25.780 You're doing something right if someone doesn't like you, especially a competitor. 00:37:26.338 --> 00:37:34.989 Um, you know, and the biggest, the biggest thing I would say, which I've probably learnt in the last couple years, um, is not to care what anyone thinks. 00:37:35.050 --> 00:37:36.369 Like, don't take anything to heart. 00:37:36.378 --> 00:37:36.398 Yeah. 00:37:36.398 --> 00:37:54.012 If you hear some- something through the, the grapevine that so-and-so says you're this, you're that The biggest advice, one thing someone said to me is that you'll never have someone above you cutting you Mm. And that, that's a big thing I- that's helped me get through even LinkedIn branding posting. 00:37:54.012 --> 00:37:57.510 Like, I don't even think 10 seconds now about my LinkedIn posts. 00:37:57.862 --> 00:38:07.630 Like, I'm dyslexic anyway, so people are always going like, "He's a bit…" But simple, but I think if you want to be an entrepreneur, you need to be just prepared that don't care what people think about you. 00:38:07.902 --> 00:38:08.101 Mm. 00:38:08.311 --> 00:38:12.590 Um, just care about what your team think about you, and your customers. 00:38:13.291 --> 00:38:17.092 Um, customers aren't always right, and you need to also have a bit of backbone. 00:38:17.092 --> 00:38:23.951 I think at the start, whatever they said, I was like, "You're like, you know, these stores and restaurants, the customer's always right." The customer's not always right, okay? 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:28.300 And at times, you need to work out what's good work and what's bad work. 00:38:28.351 --> 00:38:32.960 And in this town, I'm sure you've experienced it as well, unfortunately, you can be a busy fool. 00:38:33.342 --> 00:38:33.471 Mm. 00:38:33.530 --> 00:38:39.112 You can be running around town doing this, doing that, people promising the world, and then they go six foot under. 00:38:40.190 --> 00:38:45.362 Yeah, no, I mean, there's a lot of stories that I've heard around, around those things. 00:38:45.822 --> 00:38:54.661 But going back to the advice to entrepreneurs about selling, I guess your methodology isn't necessarily the kind of sell me a pen type mentality. 00:38:54.661 --> 00:38:56.081 It's more about building a community. 00:38:56.090 --> 00:38:56.471 Yeah. 00:38:56.911 --> 00:39:11.333 You have a solid product, so it's about making sure you have a solid product and- Sh- giving that awareness to your customers and suppliers- Yeah … so then naturally that causes s- uh, sales for you Yeah. 00:39:11.333 --> 00:39:17.047 W- w- what I think I've tried to do, um, I never put customers under pressure. 00:39:17.177 --> 00:39:17.447 Mm. 00:39:17.538 --> 00:39:20.836 You know, if I meet a client for lunch, I won't talk about recruitment. 00:39:20.907 --> 00:39:21.317 Yeah. 00:39:21.416 --> 00:39:22.237 I'll never mention it. 00:39:22.237 --> 00:39:23.967 I'll let them bring it up if, if they wanna bring it up. 00:39:24.666 --> 00:39:31.157 Mm. I think a lot of people, you know, especially more junior recruiters, they can be quite aggressive in their approach. 00:39:31.157 --> 00:39:33.726 Like, the person who's sat in front of you, they know what you do. 00:39:34.507 --> 00:39:36.186 You know, they're intelligent people. 00:39:36.347 --> 00:39:37.646 They know he is in recruitment. 00:39:38.047 --> 00:39:39.186 That's why he's trying to meet me. 00:39:39.827 --> 00:39:45.286 And the feedback, you know, I will always be very pull back and just try and build a relationship. 00:39:45.387 --> 00:39:53.867 You know, if s- if someone wants to work with you though, they will work with you, and if somebody chooses to get free lunches and events out of me and they still don't use me, that's on them. 00:39:54.496 --> 00:39:54.956 That's fine. 00:39:55.157 --> 00:39:56.418 I'm not gonna lose sleep about it. 00:39:56.418 --> 00:39:58.016 That's more their moral compass. 00:39:58.016 --> 00:40:04.646 I'm sure you have, like, one or two who come to every single event for the last five years and- I'm, I'm sure it's more than one or two I'd say it's 20, 20 or 50. 00:40:05.246 --> 00:40:06.338 I'd say there's loads. 00:40:06.467 --> 00:40:11.967 But my, my whole view, if you think about it, you do an event, you know, we, we just 150 on Friday. 00:40:12.586 --> 00:40:17.186 If we get a role from 10 of the 10% of that, that's 15 roles. 00:40:18.356 --> 00:40:20.186 You're, you're dancing, you know? 00:40:20.617 --> 00:40:29.916 And, uh, y- it's all about building a relationship, and you gotta remember, especially in service industries, you know, you play of c- loads of competitors as well, where historically so-and-so uses this guy. 00:40:30.177 --> 00:40:30.547 Mm. 00:40:30.856 --> 00:40:34.987 Um, may say one day they do a terrible job, I guarantee you're getting the phone call. 00:40:35.586 --> 00:40:44.367 Uh, and, and to entrepreneurs as well, for events, you gotta remember, in whatever, 90% of companies, everyone offers the same service. 00:40:44.378 --> 00:40:52.648 It's just … Especially in my game, like, everyone has the same CVs, so the, the only reason why they're using Alchemy is through the relationships they had with the people in that team. 00:40:52.737 --> 00:40:56.407 They could go to Robert Walters, Michael Page, same CV will be there. 00:40:56.878 --> 00:41:01.356 Um, but

companies, and you gotta, you gotta treat your customers, they're humans. 00:41:01.867 --> 00:41:16.586 Um, they're gonna remember the person who brought them out for a breakfast, lunch, painting, versus the person who just harasses them every three or six months-'cause they see you post a job on LinkedIn, and they, that's transactional. 00:41:16.666 --> 00:41:17.016 Mm. 00:41:17.416 --> 00:41:21.577 So yeah, I, I think for me it's, it's events, and it's just, it's the compounding. 00:41:21.577 --> 00:41:28.567 And, and the biggest thing is, uh, entrepreneurs, if you build a good community, you have a room full of cheerleaders. 00:41:29.217 --> 00:41:31.057 You know, they'll do your BD for you. 00:41:31.068 --> 00:41:37.958 Like, the event we did last Friday, again, I keep harping on about it, but, like, I'd say I knew 75% in the room, maybe 25% new people. 00:41:38.788 --> 00:42:00.730 They're gonna be I knew about you through probably four CFOs- Yeah… kept saying, "Oh, D- You should meet Conor. 00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:01.329 You should meet Conor. 00:42:01.329 --> 00:42:02.365 This person said you should meet Conor. 00:42:02.365 --> 00:42:03.559 That person said you should meet Conor. 00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:05.000 This person said I should meet Conor. 00:42:05.010 --> 00:42:07.610 And then finally we got round to having- Yeah… that lunch. 00:42:07.659 --> 00:42:08.110 Oh, we lunch. 00:42:08.150 --> 00:42:09.340 And it, which led to this. 00:42:10.030 --> 00:42:10.730 So it's worked for me. 00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:11.579 Yeah. 00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:16.000 But again, but again, but that, that, that's, again, that's cheerleaders in the background. 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:23.519 And sometimes we pick up work where- Yeah … a CFO chatting to another CFO or whoever, and is like, "Oh, I can't fill this role. Speak to this guy." That's probably to me, speaks to one of my team. 00:42:23.929 --> 00:42:28.170 And it's just people talk about compounding interest, like I'm actually seeing that now. 00:42:29.048 --> 00:42:32.099 Um, by no means we're smashing it. 00:42:32.289 --> 00:42:33.190 We're, we're doing okay. 00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:54.344 I think the biggest thing- We're seeing currently in the market, my favorite quote of all time, so you can definitely use this one, uh- … is, uh, "You find out who's been swimming naked when the tide is out." And I think so many businesses in UE, the tide's been in, everyone's swimming around, having fun, everyone's great. 00:42:55.083 --> 00:42:57.972 Last four or five months, tide is out. 00:42:58.244 --> 00:42:58.653 Mm-hmm. 00:42:59.233 --> 00:43:00.503 People are being found out. 00:43:00.682 --> 00:43:06.123 People who didn't plan cashflow, plan costs, hiring, they're all being found out now. 00:43:06.592 --> 00:43:08.972 Um, and don't get me wrong, it's been super tough for us. 00:43:09.014 --> 00:43:10.614 You know, the market turned on its head. 00:43:10.623 --> 00:43:13.923 We, we were actually hoping to hire

four people- Mm… for the 1st of April. 00:43:14.143 --> 00:43:15.393 Obviously had to, to bin that. 00:43:15.853 --> 00:43:17.563 Um, but like we were in a good position. 00:43:17.693 --> 00:43:22.784 Um, but yeah, it's the, you know, we're seeing companies let go of people. 00:43:23.313 --> 00:43:24.782 Um, it's gonna come back. 00:43:24.793 --> 00:43:26.032 It's already starting to come back. 00:43:26.063 --> 00:43:27.132 We're, we're in June now. 00:43:27.532 --> 00:43:30.472 If I had a crystal ball, August it's gonna be booming. 00:43:30.483 --> 00:43:31.833 It's not gonna be as much as like COVID. 00:43:31.903 --> 00:43:34.684 Post-COVID was the best years in recruitment globally- Mm … for companies. 00:43:35.282 --> 00:43:40.034 Um, in UE, as you said, when people let people go, if they can't find a job, they have to go. 00:43:40.882 --> 00:43:41.943 They're, they're not just gonna sit around. 00:43:41.972 --> 00:43:42.302 Yeah. 00:43:42.373 --> 00:43:47.972 Um, so I anticipate a big spike in hiring, uh, post-summer. 00:43:48.722 --> 00:43:56.422 So Connor, you've given us some great insights into your journey, uh, some of the lows, some of the highs, some of the great advice that you've done. 00:43:56.923 --> 00:44:00.083 Um, but we have a lot of first time entrepreneurs. 00:44:00.083 --> 00:44:05.833 We have a lot of entrepreneurs who, or a lot of employees who wanna take that jump to become an entrepreneur. 00:44:06.413 --> 00:44:11.512 So what, what, what is the one advice you would give to an entrepreneur if they were to start now? 00:44:12.483 --> 00:44:17.103 Ignorance is bliss- … is probably the, the biggest thing I would say, go with your gut. 00:44:17.853 --> 00:44:19.543 Take advice, but don't take too much advice. 00:44:19.682 --> 00:44:22.023 You know, don't take advice from these people that never ran a business. 00:44:22.043 --> 00:44:26.422 You know, the biggest thing, you get these consultants, they've never, ever been close to running a business in their life. 00:44:26.423 --> 00:44:29.034 They're giving you their… These guys just kick tires all day. 00:44:29.432 --> 00:44:31.583 Um, so, you know, go with your gut. 00:44:32.494 --> 00:44:34.494 Again, I was very fortunate that my father's an entrepreneur. 00:44:34.592 --> 00:44:41.302 Um, he's definitely been my biggest mentor, and any time in doubt, you know, he's always been there for the phone. 00:44:41.302 --> 00:44:52.773 So I think it is important, you know, even, and I was fortunate that, obviously not everyone's father is an entrepreneur, but, you know, if there's someone in your family network, that's the best advice you're gonna get- Mm'cause that person's actually done it. 00:44:53.472 --> 00:44:59.762 Getting advice from someone who's been an employee all their life means nothing for the- Mm … for the most part, because they don't know. 00:45:00.273 --> 00:45:05.514 They're, they're not the one up sweating at night about paying their staff, all that sort of stuff. 00:45:05.702 --> 00:45:07.244 They might tell you that, but it's nonsense. 00:45:07.253 --> 00:45:10.693 So, you know, get good people around you. 00:45:10.753 --> 00:45:11.472 Go with your gut. 00:45:12.032 --> 00:45:14.092 And again, I, I said ignorance is bliss. 00:45:14.103 --> 00:45:21.864 I, I, I was quite ignorant at times, and I've never been the smartest man in the room, ever that, but sometimes you just go with it and just back yourself. 00:45:21.903 --> 00:45:29.353 And, 'cause the problem with people, the reason why some people, entrepreneurs, they're not entrepreneurs, they're too smart, they're too intelligent, they think too much. 00:45:29.882 --> 00:45:40.043 I've, I've, I've met a lot of really smart entrepreneurs, and they haven't, like- They haven't built like a, an, a, a very successful business. 00:45:40.594 --> 00:45:46.722 And I've met, as you say, I've met some entrepreneurs- Simpletons like me … they're not, not like you. 00:45:46.722 --> 00:45:59.943 They're not the smartest, but either they've got really good connections or they just go at it, head down, um, and they build, they build decent businesses. 00:45:59.943 --> 00:46:01.353 You gotta be, you gotta be a dog. 00:46:01.663 --> 00:46:02.822 Like, you gotta be a dog. 00:46:02.853 --> 00:46:03.202 Mm. 00:46:03.242 --> 00:46:17.023 Um, and like this isn't me trying to pump air in my tires, but, you know, I, I can just remember from years when I was, when I was in Rubber Waters, like I used to be in every Saturday in, uh, the office in Leicester Square. 00:46:17.023 --> 00:46:19.083 The floor's around 150 people. 00:46:19.173 --> 00:46:22.789 Mm. There'd only be three or four people in on a Saturday, always the same three or four people. 00:46:22.789 --> 00:46:23.552 I've been to that office, by the way. 00:46:23.572 --> 00:46:23.592 Yeah. 00:46:24.733 --> 00:46:25.182 Again, lovely office. 00:46:25.882 --> 00:46:37.572 But again, these are the traits, and like for me that was non-negotiable because I, I, I h- I had a bit of a, a rocket up my backside, but I wanted to prove that I could do this. 00:46:38.592 --> 00:46:52.893 And I, I actually can remember one point, I, I remember I was actually… A fee fell through quite early in my career, and I remember I was ringing a little girl, I was crying in the toilets 'cause it was, if, if the fee went through I would've got my bonus, would've hit the threshold. 00:46:53.882 --> 00:47:04.802 And I can remember just in the toilet I was like, you know, feeling sorry for myself and, you know, you just need to get a, get a, get a, get a, get a, get a spoon of cement and harden up. 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:13.134 Like it's a, you know, you go through tough times- Mm… and that's just all part of it, and I've been through plenty of tough times, but I've also had plenty of great times. 00:47:13.452 --> 00:47:18.782 Um, and the big, sorry, the biggest advice I would say to any entrepreneur is enjoy the good times. 00:47:18.862 -->

00:47:19.222 Mm. 00:47:19.592 --> 00:47:33.012 Because the biggest mistake I made in my first couple years was we did something good and we got out of COVID, we got out of the legal thing, and it was like, "Okay, what do we do next?" While if something bad happened, you know, you could be up all night for two or three nights. 00:47:33.052 --> 00:47:39.884 And I think that's the biggest mistake that I made, even with my wider team was like, when we hit a target, go and celebrate. 00:47:40.123 --> 00:47:40.503 Mm. 00:47:40.572 --> 00:47:42.443 You know, what's the point of working so hard? 00:47:42.443 --> 00:47:47.213 But people get in such a mindset where you get a win and you're like, "Okay, that's done. 00:47:47.213 --> 00:47:49.402 What, what, what's our next win?" Yeah. 00:47:49.402 --> 00:48:06.733 I, um, I have a coach, and my coach told me that I don't celebrate my wins, and he makes me write down every Friday what my wins were for the week because I'm, I'm a bit of a machine myself as well, right? 00:48:07.293 --> 00:48:14.963 And I just say to myself, "This is my bigger goal and I, these small wins don't mean anything until I get to this big goal." But actually they do. 00:48:15.414 --> 00:48:39.356 And his, um, his advice was that when you celebrate your wins you wire your brain in such a way where it helps you- appreciate what you've achieved, and it gives you that mental energy to go for that next, um, for the next challenge or the next battle before you get to the point where you won the war. 00:48:39.748 --> 00:48:43.387 And I think that is what you just mentioned is I realize it's super important. 00:48:43.436 --> 00:48:52.217 Yes, so- And I, and I don't even, like, we should also include some of our team in some of the- Yeah … wins, and I am, I've been guilty of that. 00:48:53.016 --> 00:49:22.586 But going back to coaches and mentors, you mentioned your father was one- Yeah … of your mentors, and this is a question I ask to all of my, um, all of my guests because I believe that one of the reasons why I've been able to grow as an entrepreneur is 'cause I've had a good network of coaches and mentors who's been able to find the blind spots that I'm not looking at to make sure that I'm not, you know, getting my head down and doing one thing when I should be getting my head up and looking at what other things I can be doing to take those leaps and bounds. 00:49:23.987 --> 00:49:25.197 Do you have mentors and coaches? 00:49:25.197 --> 00:49:26.768 What, what, what- Yeah, no, I- What, what have you learned from them? 00:49:26.777 --> 00:49:27.536 Yeah, no, I have. 00:49:27.577 --> 00:49:30.407 I've had a few coaches sort of on and off. 00:49:30.416 --> 00:49:40.586 Mm. Some guys sort of like a non-exec- Mm … in the, in the recruit- from the recruitment side of things, and then also some sort of, you know, leadership coaches as well, and they've all added snippets of brilliance, I think, uh, too. 00:49:40.586 --> 00:49:48.027 Because the

biggest thing with these guys is they tell you what you, uh, need to hear, not what you wanna hear. 00:49:48.038 --> 00:49:52.586 Mm. And the reality is when you're an entrepreneur, your team, for the most part, no one's gonna question you. 00:49:52.976 --> 00:49:56.487 You know, if you're in the room, they're like, "Yeah, well done, Conor," even though I could be completely wrong. 00:49:56.887 --> 00:50:04.297 I'm sure there has been times they're like, "This guy is talking complete nonsense again." But the other guys, their job is to call you out on stuff. 00:50:04.376 --> 00:50:04.626 Mm. 00:50:04.766 --> 00:50:05.757 And they're not emotional. 00:50:05.757 --> 00:50:11.056 They're, they're professional in that field, so they have no issues just saying, "You're talking nonsense, Conor. 00:50:11.476 --> 00:50:24.706 This is the way you should be doing it." Um, so I found that, you know, very helpful for me because like anything, there's always ego involved, and don't get me wrong, I'd be, I'd be the first… I'm sure there's been times where I have been a bit of an ego, think I'm great when turns out I'm not. 00:50:25.206 --> 00:50:28.217 Um, so you need someone to put you back in your box. 00:50:28.257 --> 00:50:30.737 My mother's pretty good at it every now and again, good Irish mother. 00:50:31.086 --> 00:50:40.788 Um, but I, I think, you know, the one thing I would say is m- my wife in particular, she's been great at events where she actually says,"Look around, take it all in." Mm. 00:50:41.067 --> 00:50:44.677 While I think, again, you're just, it's like you're like a horse with blinkers on you. 00:50:44.697 --> 00:50:45.106 Yeah. 00:50:45.106 --> 00:50:54.177 And you're just, you're just looking while you need to sometimes take a step back and go, "Geez, that's cool that we've- Mm actually done that." And I think that's common with, I think, a lot of founders. 00:50:54.297 --> 00:51:00.987 Um, but sometimes it's important just to take a deep breath and, uh, yeah, and I think the big thing as well is take care of your team. 00:51:01.197 --> 00:51:01.507 Mm. 00:51:01.916 --> 00:51:09.416 Especially in this part of the world where teams are diverse, different backgrounds, you know, you've certain people just, they're the engine room of the business. 00:51:09.496 --> 00:51:09.737 Mm. 00:51:09.797 --> 00:51:13.556 Um, and just making sure you celebrate their wins as well. 00:51:14.188 --> 00:51:23.755 And if you can at any point- pump air in their tires, let them take the credit, um, because that's the stuff that keeps the bond in the business very strong. 00:51:24.585 --> 00:51:26.146 Yeah, no, that's great, great insights. 00:51:26.146 --> 00:51:28.365 So- Yeah … thanks, thanks for sharing your honesty. 00:51:28.885 --> 00:51:35.938 Before we wrap up, um How, where, where do you see Alkami going over the next few years? 00:51:35.938 --> 00:51:37.568 What's your ambition for Alkami? 00:51:37.768 --> 00:51:38.527 I'm gonna take over. 00:51:40.947 --> 00:51:41.277 No, no. 00:51:41.557 --> 00:51:42.907 Good things come in small packages. 00:51:42.956 --> 00:51:43.106 Yeah. 00:51:43.257 --> 00:51:47.307 Um, I've always said we always wanna be an inch wide and a mile deep. 00:51:47.617 --> 00:51:52.396 Um, people always say, "Oh, would you not do IT or, you know, different verticals?" Yep. 00:51:52.878 --> 00:51:54.838 For us, we'll always be finance, tax, treasury. 00:51:55.137 --> 00:51:58.836 The biggest growth area now for us is fractional, um, the buzzword. 00:51:58.867 --> 00:52:00.567 I know we've spoken about it offline as well. 00:52:00.626 --> 00:52:03.657 But for me, what would success look like? 00:52:03.657 --> 00:52:09.047 H- I would like us to be, have the same size operation in Abu Dhabi than we do in Dubai. 00:52:09.677 --> 00:52:12.907 Um, my business partner, Weam, she's moved down to Abu Dhabi now. 00:52:12.907 --> 00:52:16.117 We've one person join us in August, hopefully another person later in the year. 00:52:16.117 --> 00:52:20.038 But for me, that, that's like, wow, if we can do that, that would be super cool. 00:52:20.887 --> 00:52:23.057 And Dubai is Dubai, it always keeps trucking along. 00:52:23.206 --> 00:52:37.407 Um, but yeah, I've no ambition, um, to sell or, you know, as I said, Weam, she's become a business partner, and that's actually quite a, quite an interesting thing to close on because now I've, have another person part of the business. 00:52:37.407 --> 00:52:37.567 Yeah. 00:52:37.567 --> 00:52:49.347 And super stressful, you know, lawyers involved, all that sort of stuff, shareholder agreements, and anyone that does it, when you're a founder and you're gonna let someone else into your business, be prepared, it's gonna get emotional. 00:52:49.556 --> 00:52:57.438 Um, you're gonna have someone in the other person's ear telling them everything, then your lawyer is gonna be trying to defend you, and words can get lost. 00:52:57.438 --> 00:53:02.427 But that was pretty, pretty, uh, took six months, nine months. 00:53:02.538 --> 00:53:10.137 Um, so they, they're the things to look… And I, I think one thing as well, it, depending on your business model for recruitment, you know, Weam is a top performer. 00:53:10.157 --> 00:53:12.838 If, if I didn't offer her something like this, she'd just do her own business. 00:53:12.916 --> 00:53:21.907 Mm. Um, so if you're in a similar business to recruitment, my advice, and this is the way I had to look at it, was that 100% of nothing is nothing. 00:53:22.077 --> 00:53:27.217 Mm. 90%, 80%, 70% of something, that's r- super good. 00:53:27.226 --> 00:53:33.097 Of a 10 million dirham business versus a five million dirham business at 100%, you know, the latter's obviously stronger. 00:53:33.097 --> 00:53:39.867 So these are the things, take emotion out of it, um, 'cause yeah, I could, I give you a whole episode on that as well. 00:53:40.166 --> 00:53:43.327 Probably get Weam on to give her side 'cause- my side

of it's pretty bad. 00:53:43.327 --> 00:53:46.217 But yeah, I think just be fair. 00:53:46.586 --> 00:53:58.327 I think fairness is… It was one thing that was really driven into me growing up, um, that life is about fairness, and you should always do your best to be fair. 00:53:58.407 --> 00:53:58.708 Mm. 00:53:59.628 --> 00:54:06.206 And if you get too consistent of being unfair, you will be f- you know, that's your reputation. 00:54:06.206 --> 00:54:10.036 Your, your reputation is something you can control for the most part. 00:54:10.777 --> 00:54:18.818 And that's one thing which, you know, for the most part, I try to be as fair as possible, uh, with my team, with candidates, clients, et cetera. 00:54:18.836 --> 00:54:24.246 Sometimes I'm not, but for the most part, that's what you should be, you know, striving to get to. 00:54:24.942 --> 00:54:26.581 No, thank, thanks for sharing that. 00:54:26.612 --> 00:54:28.802 And before we wrap up, what kind of things are you working on? 00:54:28.811 --> 00:54:32.161 You still gonna continue doing the events, I guess? 00:54:32.161 --> 00:54:33.382 Yeah, we're doing one with you, hopefully. 00:54:33.431 --> 00:54:34.251 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. 00:54:35.271 --> 00:54:40.431 Um, what, what, what kind of things are you, you got planned over the next, uh- Yeah, um- few months? 00:54:40.451 --> 00:54:47.871 So events, we've … Well, I'm, I'm, I'm away to Ireland now for July, but yeah, we're gonna have some more breakfast mornings, hopefully an event with yourself. 00:54:48.851 --> 00:54:53.782 And Taxify, the tax community, uh, we'll have a CFO ball, hopefully a golf day, paddle tennis. 00:54:53.911 --> 00:54:57.371 We, we try to be as inclusive for everybody- Mm … um, especially in this part of the world. 00:54:57.371 --> 00:55:00.681 You wanna be trying to hit all the… We'll do a Diwali event as well, hopefully. 00:55:00.721 --> 00:55:03.831 We're trying to recognize that for our Indian community. 00:55:04.052 --> 00:55:06.621 Um, so yeah, no, plenty of events. 00:55:06.831 --> 00:55:10.050 And, and the best way for them to, for our audience to get in contact? 00:55:10.512 --> 00:55:10.731 Yeah. 00:55:10.771 --> 00:55:11.731 Uh, LinkedIn is good. 00:55:11.961 --> 00:55:11.981 Yeah. 00:55:12.201 --> 00:55:15.240 You'll be one of the thousand messages I get every day. 00:55:15.240 --> 00:55:16.742 No, no, LinkedIn is pretty good. 00:55:16.831 --> 00:55:22.961 Um, I do… And one thing as a founder, actually, to close on, you've got to be prepared to respond to people. 00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:37.501 Mm. And that's the one thing I really try my best to respond, um, because, again, you know, you go out, you're out socially, like, I've been out socially, and you meet someone, and they're like, "You actually responded to me." Mm-hmm. 00:55:37.501 --> 00:55:46.840 Uh, 'cause you could be this person who's talking a great game, and then they're like, "No, well…" I… There was one, one time, this guy, he, he's like, "You didn't respond." I was like, "I knew I had responded." I got the phone out and showed him. 00:55:47.331 --> 00:55:59.771 Um, but yeah, just 'cause, just try and, try and help the narrative- Mm as much as you can, 'cause that, it, it's your baby, and you just keep driving- Well, your face is behind the business as well, right? 00:55:59.820 --> 00:55:59.940 Yeah. 00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:01.070 So it's your reputation. 00:56:01.181 --> 00:56:01.490 Yeah. 00:56:01.610 --> 00:56:02.451 I'm back office now. 00:56:02.471 --> 00:56:04.280 I'm the head of credit control, as I told you. 00:56:04.721 --> 00:56:08.242 Um, but yeah, no, it's, uh, it's worth the phone. 00:56:08.242 --> 00:56:09.150 It gives you life. 00:56:10.012 --> 00:56:14.081 Um, it sucks the life out of you as well at the best of times, but the highs are really good. 00:56:14.431 --> 00:56:21.851 Um, but just, you know, as I said, everybody has a, a plan till you get punched in the face, and that happened for everybody over here on, what? 00:56:21.851 --> 00:56:22.451 The end of February. 00:56:22.451 --> 00:56:24.630 So yeah, just keep driving on. 00:56:25.820 --> 00:56:28.981 Thank you very much- Thank you … for your wise words and for your honesty. 00:56:28.990 --> 00:56:30.840 Mm. Uh, really enjoyed this episode. 00:56:30.951 --> 00:56:32.831 And, um, yeah, thank you. 00:56:32.831 --> 00:56:33.630 Thank you, mate. 00:56:33.632 --> 00:56:33.871 Yeah. 00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:36.811 More, more honesty than wise, but, uh, thank you very much for having me. 00:56:37.070 --> 00:56:37.481 Thanks. 00:56:37.481 --> 00:56:37.971 Thanks, mate. 00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:40.701 Thank you for watching the Alphapreneurs podcast. 00:56:40.811 --> 00:56:45.731 I hope you enjoyed today's episode and took something away which you can apply in your own business. 00:56:46.251 --> 00:56:50.661 Please subscribe to the podcast and share this episode with someone who might find it useful too.