บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Nyla Innuksuk -- Psycho

off with the question, 26 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,720 what does Psycho mean to you? Why did you choose Psycho today? 27 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:15,920 Yeah, I think that for me, it was just such a foundational movie for me when I was really, 28 00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:24,600 when I was kind of starting to under see movies as something more than just this, something 29 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:33,120 that was this fun, entertaining thing to watch. And I was at that time really starting to 30 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:40,480 think about movies more seriously and thinking about making my own. And I was making some 31 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:47,200 videos with my friends and my cousins and that sort of thing. And I always loved horror 32 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:53,100 and Hitchcock. And I think that there was just something very thrilling about watching 33 00:03:53,100 --> 00:04:01,720 something that felt like you're kind of getting away with something. And I remember even with 34 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:08,280 Hitchcock in particular, one of my very first experiences watching a scary movie was with 35 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:14,040 the birds. And I remember I had a girlfriend over for a sleepover and we were eight years 36 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:22,600 old. And this is the movie that my mom suggested we watch, which I think is speaking of Psycho, 37 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:29,400 I mean, that's kind of crazy because we were the exact same age as those kids who I would 38 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,560 say the most terrifying scene is when they're having to rush those kids out of school and 39 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:42,080 they're all being attacked. And so that movie was really scary, but it just was also so 40 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:52,520 exciting to be watching something like this. And then so then later when I was probably 41 00:04:52,520 --> 00:05:00,720 maybe 13, 12 or 13, I was having another slumber party with a group of girlfriends. And so 42 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:06,440 I brought over Psycho, but I hadn't watched it before, but I was just thinking that this 43 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:12,080 would be fun and scary. And I had heard that it was really scary. And we started watching 44 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:20,920 it and all of my girlfriends were just like, this is so boring. And because for the first 45 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:28,320 10 minutes, it's mostly her in her office and she's deciding what to do and then driving 46 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:37,280 for a long time. So we turned it off before anything had really happened. And so then 47 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:46,280 I went home and I watched it on my own. And I remember I just left my bedroom where I 48 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:52,920 would watch movies and I came downstairs to my mom and I was just like, this is a perfect 49 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:58,240 movie. This could be released today and it would just be terrifying. It would be perfect. 50 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:05,640 And then I found out that Gus Vinson had actually just remade the movie shot for shot. And so 51 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:14,840 it was, yeah, I mean, I loved it from the first time I watched it fully on my own and 52 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:24,920 have and the performance of Norman Bates in particular, I thought was so fantastic. Yeah, 53 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:39,120 I really, and so for me, it was one of these movies that just as I was thinking about, 54 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,200 seems crazy that as a teenager, you're having to figure out what you want to be doing with 55 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:49,040 the rest of your life, but you do feel that pressure. And I was trying to decide if I 56 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:58,040 wanted to go and study film at university, which seems a little bit silly, or if I should 57 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:05,520 be doing something more practical and or more, I don't know, something that could benefit 58 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:17,240 my community in some way, you know, and so it was just for me in a time where I was really 59 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,840 just starting to kind of think about movies as something that I was really passionate 60 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:23,840 about. 61 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:32,240 Would you say that it's the acting that struck you? Is it the story, the filmmaking that 62 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:38,040 really touched you that first time that you saw it, or is it the revelation of what is 63 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,400 at the core of the mystery itself? 64 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:47,680 Yeah, I mean, I think all of those things, there's this mystery, trying to figure it 65 00:07:47,680 --> 00:08:00,880 out with the sister and uncover what's happened to her sister and then this amazingly charming 66 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:08,720 performance by Anthony Perkins. And I mean, I had such a crush on Norman Bates when I 67 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:19,160 was a teenager, who is, of course, the psycho and psycho. And so it was, you know, it was 68 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:27,840 really kind of only now I feel like I've unpacked some of the reasons why and I now see these 69 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,800 behaviors as problematic, of course. 70 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:42,680 But yeah, and I think that that kind of twist at the end was so amazing. And then to kind 71 00:08:42,680 --> 00:08:51,640 of have this reveal of him at the end in his kind of true form was so great. 72 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,640 But he's sweet. He's portrayed as- 73 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:55,640 He's a counter-vice. 74 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:03,400 It's not surprising that you would have found him attractive because he's very pleasurable 75 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,240 for most of the film anyway. 76 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:20,160 Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, but then also in his, he's very like this bumbling and shy 77 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:30,640 person who is, you know, and then obviously dealing with an abusive mother and that so 78 00:09:30,640

--> 00:09:38,760 he's clearly vulnerable. I think also for women can be this thing that we're drawn to 79 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,720 and wanting to take care of. 80 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,460 And it's interesting because I do think that there's kind of a fine line between the humor 81 00:09:45,460 --> 00:09:50,880 and the horror in the film and maybe also the charm that we experience. And I'm thinking 82 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,440 a lot about how Jordan Peele has talked about that kind of porosity between humor and good 83 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,880 naturedness and horror. And I'm wondering how you feel about that because I found that 84 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,960 also in your work as well. 85 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:12,000 Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think that the kind of the similarities between horror and 86 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:20,800 comedy, not just the situations that can kind of cause you to feel both, but then also just 87 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:29,560 how it can be approached within film and creating tension. And sometimes, you know, you're laughing 88 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:36,000 because something is so horrifying or you just don't want this thing to happen. And 89 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:42,320 of course, like, I mean, the scene in Psycho with the car going down and then just stopping 90 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,920 and it's like, Oh, is this not going to work? And then it just continues going, I think, 91 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:56,400 is such a fantastic little moment of comedy within this, but really the darkest, the darkest 92 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:03,720 moment in the movie. Those elements just, I think, go really well together and including, 93 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,320 you know, with a bit of the absurd. 94 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,800 Are there other moments of the film that you particularly like because of the way they 95 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:16,720 are shot and are there sequences that stayed with you? I mean, people usually think of 96 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:24,560 the shower scene, but are there other possibly sequences that you particularly appreciate? 97 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:35,000 I mean, of course, the shower scene is fantastic and great. And, you know, after I've made 98 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,080 Slashback where we were kind of, well, it was a bit chaotic. It was an indie movie made 99 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:48,360 with teenagers in this very remote community. And it was my first time doing that. So that 100 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:53,280 I was kind of learning all these lessons every day. Every day, I felt like I was learning 101 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,400 a million lessons and then just being like, oh my gosh, I guess we just do this again 102 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:07,240 and again and again and again. And then it was kind of, I remember just thinking of Hitchcock 103 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:18,240 and how just the, and his shooting of almost exclusively on sets. And I just was like,

104 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:26,400 oh yeah, okay. Well, like I can see now why something like just this idea of being able 105 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:36,200 to have control. And I think that there is so much control within his work and the framing 106 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:45,000 and consideration of colors and that it's to me very inspiring to kind of consider the 107 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:52,480 work and preparation. But then, you know, it also kind of within these ideas of control. 108 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:59,040 And I think a lot just, but the cool thing about being able to make movies and make horror 109 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:10,120 and write horror is that you kind of get to process feelings about fear and anxiety and 110 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:16,480 in a way that's kind of creative. And with my co-writer, we've actually started to kind 111 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,800 of question how healthy that is for us actually, and whether we should be maybe thinking about 112 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:28,880 things that are not just tension and fear and that sort of, you know, I do think that 113 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:37,200 for me with both Slashback and this next project that we're doing, it has really been a helpful 114 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:47,260 way to kind of process these feelings of anxiety and then control. And I think that it is really 115 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:53,120 interesting also with directors and obviously with Hitchcock and you kind of look throughout 116 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:59,320 his movies that he's obviously someone that, and I think directors, we like a certain amount 117 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:13,160 of control and that he is processing certain things and themes throughout his work. And 118 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:24,200 with the birds or psycho, I feel like there's these men with mothers who are a little bit, 119 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,800 a little bit extremely overbearing and questioning of the women that are coming into the men's 120 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:40,560 lives and have such influence over the men in their lives. So I feel like that is just 121 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:47,720 something that I have definitely related to in my work. And then I think that also then 122 00:14:47,720 --> 00:15:01,080 translates to themes and also to the cinematography and playing with control and letting go of 123 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:07,040 control and within the frame and consideration of those things. 124 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:12,320 I'm really glad that you mentioned thinking about Hitchcock while filming Slashback because 125 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,200 that means we can get right to it. There are a couple of things I wanted to ask you about 126 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:23,200 because when we talk about psycho and Hitchcock in general, we've got these wonderful title 127 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:29,640 credits that were done by Saul Bass and I think that your opening title credits are 128 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,560 just so gorgeous and creative. And I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about that 129 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,680 and if by any chance Saul Bass's work was an inspiration for that too, the way that 130 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,560 you integrated the design and the opening title sequence of the film. 131 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:52,160 Yeah, definitely. That was really kind of fun to play around with. And that's the coolest 132 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,680 thing about making movies, I think, is it's a real team sport. You're collaborating with 133 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:03,680 these amazingly talented and creative artists who are really expert at what they do. And 134 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,360 so at every stage you're getting to work with, you know, whether it's your production designer 135 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:15,400 or your cinematographer or the person that you're designing the credits with. It's really 136 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:25,840 exciting to have these conversations and figure out what works best. And so we had this idea 137 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:32,920 to play around with syllabics, which is the Inuktitut, which is the language that we speak 138 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:43,160 up in Nunavut, where I'm from. And the writing of Inuktitut is often done in syllabics. And 139 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:50,600 so we had the syllabics translated first and then it kind of does this kind of matrix-y 140 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:59,800 switch over to the English titles. Actually, it plays with that. I think there's a couple 141 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:05,160 versions. I think there's one at one point the titles are kind of slashes through and 142 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:14,720 then at another point it does a kind of matrix-y thing. But yeah, it was fun to play. For me, 143 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:23,120 it was very important to consider the fact that this community that we were shooting 144 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:29,280 in and the communities up in the Arctic, that they've never had a movie like this made there. 145 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:35,280 And my nephews are from the community of Pang. And at the time they were, I think, four and 146 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,600 six years old. And so I just thought that it would be really cool for them to have a 147 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:48,920 movie that this kind of alien invasion, Goonies style movie set in their hometown. And in 148 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:54,200 that community where their mom is from, they speak Inuktitut and they don't speak English 149 00:17:54,200 --> 00:18:01,320 at all. And my sister, Julie, she didn't learn how to speak English until she was 13 or 14. 150 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:10,040 So it was just important for us to consider the community and that this movie was really 151 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,520 kind of made for them. And so they see the Inuktitut first. And then we also kind of 152 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:22,640 played around with this idea of subtitles and

whether or not to use them. We ended up 153 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:30,880 putting in subtitles just to be fair to all audiences. But we also kind of scripted it 154 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:40,040 in a way that if audiences were to watch without the subtitles, that they would have enough 155 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:48,560 sense of what was going on. But then there would just be this version where Inuit audiences 156 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,080 would just have this different kind of layer of understanding. 157 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:59,480 Fantastic. To come back to this comparison with Psycho, I also really love the use of 158 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,680 sound in your film. And Psycho, of course, is really celebrated for Bernard Herrmann's 159 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:10,280 wonderful composition that really hits the rhythm of the film throughout and provides 160 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,880 so much tension. And there's this wonderful percussive quality to the sound design in 161 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,500 your film as well. Do you want to maybe talk a little bit about what you think of the music 162 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:23,200 in Psycho or also how you approach music in film? 163 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:30,080 Yeah. Well, I mean, the music in Psycho is just so fantastic. We see both that title 164 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:37,240 sequence and the music we see referenced in so much. I think that for me, the approach 165 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:43,840 to the music was I knew that it was going to be just a really important... Well, for 166 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:49,600 horror, I think the music is just such an important part to consider. And then this 167 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:57,440 was also a kids adventure movie. Lots of genres mixed in, but kind of the approach to music 168 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:05,080 was going to be really important. And the cool thing about the Arctic and our music 169 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:13,840 is that we've got a lot of throat singing, which is two women. Usually it's two women 170 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,960 performing at the same time. Someone like Tanya Tugak, who is an amazing Inuit throat 171 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,040 singer who she performs all over the world. And she has done something very different 172 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:30,880 in that she performs on her own and kind of incorporates all styles of music within her 173 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:41,360 work. But we worked with Tanya actually to get a bunch of her vocalizations to then play 174 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:53,100 around with, incorporate into the creatures sounds. But whenever there was an alien or 175 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:59,960 something nearby, then we also had Tanya's vocals somewhere within the music. And then 176 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:06,160 the other instrument that is really common within the Arctic is the drum. And so that 177 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:12,520 was really kind of fun to play around with the drum. And that was all done with... All 178 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:18,040 done. We also had other percussive instruments, but most of the drumming that you hear was 179 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:27,200 done with traditional drum, different sizes of traditional drum. And we had the amazing 180 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:36,400 musicians, composers and DJs hallucination, compose a lot of the score. We kind of placed 181 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:44,680 that throughout. And then we started working with another composer and some musicians to 182 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:54,240 expand the music. And it was such a neat process to see that come together. And I mean, we 183 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,620 were also doing this over Zoom because of the pandemic happening right in the middle 184 00:21:59,620 --> 00:22:06,760 of our post-production. So we had to be having lots of Zoom sessions and then just kind of 185 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:15,320 sharing things digitally and then kind of coming together to listen and give notes and 186 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,320 that sort of thing. 187 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,760 Incredible. And can you tell us a little bit about how you worked with different rhythms? 188 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:26,520 Because in horror, oftentimes there's a kind of acceleration for creating tension. And 189 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:32,920 is that something that was done live organically during recording? Or did you also enjoy doing 190 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:38,720 sound mixing in post-production to match certain moments? Or how did that work? 191 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:50,040 Yeah, it was almost exclusively done with drums that then we had the composers work 192 00:22:50,040 --> 00:23:02,000 with and manipulate. And that was done to the edit. So certainly there were scenes that 193 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:12,160 benefited from added tension and heightened, just the heightened emotions around, whether 194 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:20,360 it's the, there's certain alien attacks or emotional moments between characters. You're 195 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:26,760 wanting to try and bring that out with music or with silence in some moments. And there 196 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:36,240 were times where the composers and I would stop and look at a scene and it seemed like 197 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:41,320 this would be this, maybe this is this big explosive swell in the music, but then it's 198 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,880 also like, what if we were to go to our sound designer and instead ask for a swell in the 199 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:55,680 sound design and the natural sounds of the environment? So playing with that with between 200 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:02,920 all of the different creative people involved was this ongoing conversation. And my favorite 201 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:09,800 part of the process was, I mean, it was, it always feels too short. And we, you know, 202 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:17,000 these things are with low budget filmmaking. It's like you have a certain amount of

days, 203 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:23,000 but this, the time spent in sound design was so much fun. Because then at that point, the 204 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:31,700 edits locked and the color's been done. And so you're really starting to see the pieces 205 00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:37,720 all come together and the edges kind of get smoothed out with the sound design. So for 206 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:45,160 me that part of the process and playing with the mix and bringing in elements and taking 207 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:51,200 some out is such a fun part of the process. And then we're also bringing in, of course, 208 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:57,440 when it comes to horror, sometimes it's monster sounds and all of that. And so it's really 209 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,840 fun to play around with like how much blood splatter you want it to sound like. 210 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:11,280 Am I right in thinking that besides the influence of Hitchcock, perhaps John Carpenter might 211 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,000 have been an influence on the film? 212 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:23,480 Oh yeah, for sure. The thing definitely influenced the movie. And we, the girls had never watched 213 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,400 it before. And then the night before we started filming, the crew and the cast, this is kind 214 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:37,600 of crazy. This town is so small that there wasn't enough housing or anywhere for us to 215 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,160 stay. So for us to actually make the movie and live in the community for a couple of 216 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,920 months, we had to ask the principals at the high school and the grade school to let us 217 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:55,360 live there. And so everyone lived in, we shipped up 55 beds and mattresses and turned all of 218 00:25:55,360 --> 00:26:04,360 the classrooms into bedrooms. And so everybody had a roommate, which is insane to me. And 219 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:10,760 they had two beds per classroom and we had all of our meals in the gym, the high school 220 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:18,080 gym. And so the night before we started filming, the girls and I all stayed in one, we put 221 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:25,360 beds together and stayed in one room in the school. And we watched the thing and ate, 222 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:30,480 it was a mistake. We ate way too much candy and then felt terrible the next day. But that 223 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:38,000 was another lesson we learned is candy with kids, you just have to just not have it around 224 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:43,480 or they'll find, they find ways to sneak it on. But it affects, it definitely affects 225 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:51,840 your ability to work. But certainly John Carpenter and then in the score as well, we were thinking 226 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,080 of John Carpenter for sure. And now that you've made your first feature length film, when you 227 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,760 go back and watch some of these iconic films

of the past, do you feel like you hear and 228 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:09,880 see them differently? Yeah. I mean, honestly watching movies now, even when people talk 229 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:15,000 about, I hear people talk about a movie and they just don't like it and it could be anything. 230 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,080 Like it could be a terrible movie, but I just am like, you guys don't know how hard this 231 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:30,920 is. But it's, when I watch, when I go back and watch and I'm hopefully shooting another 232 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:41,520 movie this fall, it's really taking the lessons that I learned from my experience and trying 233 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:49,120 to apply that to this next movie and just prepare myself in a way that I just wasn't 234 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:54,560 able to before, just because I didn't fully understand the job. Certainly I'm watching 235 00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:03,240 lots of movies and considering processes, not just in framing and sound design, but 236 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:12,360 then also how you work with actors. And I think it's, I find that I watch movies in 237 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:19,000 a very different way. Earlier in the discussion, you were mentioning the level of control that 238 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:25,720 Hitchcock had over his films and he was famous for storyboarding everything beforehand, for 239 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,560 having everything ready in his head before he started shooting. Is this also, or are 240 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:39,200 you more, is there more improvisation when you are on set? Yeah. I think that for me 241 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:45,960 with Slashback, just because of budget restraints and timing of budget, and then also when we 242 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:55,680 had to film, our final casting happened very soon before we started filming. And so having 243 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:03,840 enough time for rehearsals and blocking within the location, these are things that hopefully 244 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:09,360 I'm not terrifying my new producers too much, but it's really important for me to be having 245 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:17,520 as much of an understanding of what's happening beforehand, just because it is emotional work 246 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:27,040 on when you're doing it on the day. And there's so many people involved and the camera team 247 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:33,040 will really appreciate it if they know exactly what they're doing that day. And the sound 248 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,720 people will really appreciate it if they, if you've talked it through and it's very 249 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:47,280 clear what it is we're trying to capture. And as a director, your job is to really take 250 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:53,480 what you can see and hear and make people feel something. And so it is kind of our job 251 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,680 in advance to kind of be doing that work to figure out, okay, how can I make people feel, 252 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:06,400 what am I wanting people to feel here? And how could I be doing that with the tools that 253 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:12,800 I have? And then also with the actors, I've been working with this amazing coach who works 254 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:21,440 with directors on preparing their scripts to work with actors. And it's depend, and 255 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:30,520 each actor might approach their job differently. And so it's understanding the best way to 256 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,540 empower the different team members you're working with to be bringing their best, but 257 00:30:35,540 --> 00:30:45,200 also in the direction that you want. And so I think for actors to be able to have time 258 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:53,560 to consider the character, and this is also sometimes the characters are going through 259 00:30:53,560 --> 00:31:00,120 a lot emotionally, especially in horror. And so to give them the time to process what it 260 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:06,200 is that that character is feeling, and it might be something that is reflected in their 261 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:14,200 own life. And that takes time to adjust to, and some work for yourself so you're feeling 262 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:19,160 mentally fit on the day. Creating an environment where everyone feels like we're supporting 263 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:28,620 each other as a team in the creation of something that either tells a cool story or has an impact 264 00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:35,160 on people. I mean, when it comes to the way Hitchcock works with his actors, I definitely 265 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:42,280 think there's a different way of approaching it. But I think it's, yeah, how can you get 266 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:50,640 the actors to the place where they feel comfortable on the day bringing that emotional performance 267 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:56,240 and then making sure the rest of us have all of our stuff figured out so that they can 268 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:02,040 do their work on the day in a way that is consensual. 269 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,880 And it must have been especially challenging because you were working with actors for this 270 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,280 film. It was their first film for most of them or for all of them? 271 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:20,440 Oh yeah, for all of them. And so, and it was, yeah, but it was for some of them I had been 272 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,780 kind of working with a little bit longer and they had been around even the script development 273 00:32:25,780 --> 00:32:33,480 phase. Things that they said or were referencing directly came from them. So some of them, 274 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,040 it was a little bit maybe easier to kind of perform as their character, but it was really 275 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,560 funny actually promoting the movie with Tessiana who plays Micah, the lead, and people would 276 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,400 meet with her and they're like, wow,

she's nothing like her character. And I'm like, 277 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:57,280 I know she's acting. But it was really, it was such a joy to work with the actors. They 278 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:06,200 were, it was for all of them, their first time. Frankie was eight years old and then 279 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:12,920 I think the next youngest was 11 and the rest were 14. So it was a young cast and they were 280 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,820 all away from their hometown of Haluik. They were living in Peng for the summer and living 281 00:33:17,820 --> 00:33:26,160 in a school. So it was really fun and exciting, but it was also exhausting at times. And, 282 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,240 but what I think was so great is that the girls had developed and Rory, I should say, 283 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:37,380 had developed a real relationship. And so they were able to just support each other 284 00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:42,880 throughout the process. And we never had any crazy, crazy fights or blowouts, which is 285 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,640 kind of amazing for, for working with a bunch of teenagers all summer. 286 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:54,160 And I'm curious to know if any of the teens that acted in the film had seen or were familiar 287 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,680 with Hitchcock. Did you ever have that discussion with them? I'm told that people today are 288 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,120 not so into Hitchcock, but... 289 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:13,120 I know, no, they, none of the kids had watched Hitchcock necessarily. Yeah, they, they do 290 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:19,720 like horror. Some of them, Frankie in particular, the youngest one, she likes scary movies the 291 00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:25,960 most, which is kind of funny. But Chelsea is someone she wouldn't, who's, who was the 292 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:34,080 tallest one of the group. And she, she doesn't like scary movies. Alexis, she is, I think 293 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:41,000 she has Alexis and Nala Joss, I could see them both making their own movies. They liked 294 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:49,520 the being around sets and, and our storytellers themselves. And Tessiana really liked the, 295 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,200 liked acting and is going to continue doing that. She's, I mean, these kids, it's so amazing. 296 00:34:54,200 --> 00:35:02,080 Well, now they're not so much kids. They're 18 years old and going to university and wow. 297 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:10,960 Interesting that from the beginning of this conversation, you mentioned both Psycho and 298 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:18,720 The Birds as the films that were important to you because Psycho is mentioned sometimes 299 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:24,680 as the first slasher of the sort. And I think that for Slashback, this is an interesting 300 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:32,480 thing. But while watching your film, I was struck by the way you film that bay near Peng 301 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,480 that reminded me a lot of Bodega Bay in The Birds. I don't know if that was something 302 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,520 conscious on your part, but you know, there are those trips that they take in the boat 303 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:46,400 that are very reminiscent of what Melanie does in The Birds. So this is really something 304 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,680 that struck me. And also, I mean, I think that The Birds is a very apocalyptic film. 305 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:57,840 Yeah, I think so too. And I, yeah, I love The Birds and I've always been just drawn 306 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:03,400 to the themes and the characters. I also just, you know, this, to be Hendren in that, in 307 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,280 that movie, it was just with her getting on the boat and driving across the bay. I, I've 308 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,720 always just, I thought that she, she was such a cool character. And I know she's kind of 309 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:21,440 seen as a, as a little bit, you know, silly in the movie, but I've always thought that 310 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,440 she was kind of great. And then also just, yeah, the, the kind of securing of the house 311 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:36,800 and, and preparing for this, this invading threat. I think that that, that is something 312 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:45,160 that I definitely was thinking of and The Birds, Jaws, of course. And then I still actually, 313 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:52,800 I, I like this, the mystery of, you know, this kind of small coastal town dealing with 314 00:36:52,800 --> 00:37:01,680 this strange thing that's, that starts happening. That's something that I think is, it's something 315 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:08,160 familiar and then to kind of place it in this place that's also familiar to me, but obviously 316 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,600 maybe not familiar to lots of people was, was fun. 317 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,840 It's a group of people, as in your film, it's not just one person. It really is a community. 318 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,280 Yeah, but it's impacted. 319 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:28,520 Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and that was, that was also kind of fun to play around with 320 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:35,800 too, just in, and then it was this, the threat kind of at first it, it, it starts with affecting 321 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:42,160 this kind of outsider, the police officer, but then moves towards closer to home to, 322 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:53,000 to the father and, and to the fishermen, of course. It was, it was definitely an interesting, 323 00:37:53,000 --> 00:38:02,280 but also just, just for myself and a process for, I had just been coming out of a bit of 324 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:11,260 a, not a bit of a big health scare and, and this, it, this kind of invading threat and 325 00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:18,520 having to kind of figure out how to fight it was something that I was just also on a 326 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:27,040 personal level, just having come out of, it was, I

think important for me to kind of process 327 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:36,920 that and kind of have these girls succeed and in kind of, you know, getting rid of the, 328 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,360 the invasion. 329 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:45,120 And I love the way that you build on the slasher mythology in terms of normally a slasher 330 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,480 film is really anthropocentric in that it's about humans dying, but here we also have 331 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:57,120 animals that have been parasited. So the entire land itself and all life forms have been, 332 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:03,640 you know, endangered by this, this alien presence that's not been invited, of course, onto the 333 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:09,040 land and the, the young women are not just defending themselves, but their entire community, 334 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,440 including all of the life forms that are there. And I really, really appreciated that. 335 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:23,280 Thanks. Yeah. When I was thinking about this movie, I was thinking about these really amazing, 336 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:30,720 resilient women. And I thought, you know, if, if anyone was going to be able to handle 337 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:36,200 an invading threat, these, these gals, you know, would, would, it would be tough to take 338 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:44,880 them on. So I was definitely inspired by, by a lot of, of amazing women up in the Arctic. 339 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:53,720 And there is a real feeling of fighting for, or just, you know, the recognition of the 340 00:39:53,720 --> 00:40:01,840 importance of, of our relationship to the land and, and having, having a meaningful 341 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:10,160 and respectful relationship with the land. And that it's something that is also has, 342 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,640 you should have a healthy fear of as well. But the, the, the, the mood of the film is 343 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:21,520 very positive and it, it's interesting to contrast it with Saiko, which is a night slasher, 344 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:27,080 whereas yours is a day slasher, isn't it? Yeah. By almost by necessity, because in the 345 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,240 summer, the sun basically doesn't go out and go down in Nunavut. And yeah, it was really 346 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,120 important for me for this movie to feel really empowering just because it was especially 347 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:46,800 made for kids. And also that are recognizing that there hasn't always been empowering representations 348 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:53,800 of our communities on screen. And to have that represented was really, was really important 349 00:40:53,800 --> 00:41:01,720 to me and, and to have people feel really proud of, of being from, from the Arctic. 350 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:08,280 And just thinking too about in one sense, how Saiko is a bit of a cautionary tale in 351 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:13,240 terms of the fact that the protagonist, you know, she's done something really uncharacteristic 352 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:18,240 for her, which is to steal this money, assume that she doesn't have any kind of criminal 353 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:24,680 record and then the result, as we know, is what it is. And I'm just wondering if in a 354 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:31,000 very different way, if you've also thought about cautionary tale in terms of a cautionary 355 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,560 tale in terms of invasion and then what these women defend and the way they take care of 356 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:41,120 business or if the cautionary tale has played an important role in your own writing. 357 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,240 She shouldn't have. Yeah, definitely. Sorry, what was that? 358 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,200 She shouldn't have stolen her friend's cell phone. 359 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:59,000 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I think that that is, I definitely love playing with the idea 360 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:06,040 of the cautionary tale and that's something that is quite common in horror and Hitchcock 361 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:17,280 definitely does that. She steals the money and then gets murdered almost immediately. 362 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:24,080 And the I was going to say no, sorry for the spoiler, but I feel like if you haven't watched 363 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:32,280 it yet. And for me growing up, we have these scary stories that were told all the time 364 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,200 that the Arctic is a very, very dangerous place to live. There are certain rules that 365 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,440 are just important to follow. And of course, you don't always follow them. Like in the 366 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:50,080 springtime, the ice breaks up and it's really fun for kids to jump in between the ice, the 367 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,000 floating ice, as it's kind of breaking up in the springtime. And they do it in shallow 368 00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:02,240 enough water that it's going to be fine. But we have these stories about how the ice breaks 369 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:08,440 up, these women who live underneath the ice and steal children. They just kind of wait 370 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,720 for children to jump so they can steal them and take them as their own. And they wear 371 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:20,480 these amounties, big hoods so they can carry the children in their backs. And so it was 372 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:29,000 playing around with that idea of these cautionary tales. And also, but just I think that even 373 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:35,760 in the work that I'm working on right now, one is a documentary and we're playing around 374 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:47,400 with these ideas of the importance of learning lessons from mistakes. We also have, I think, 375 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:53,400 within our communities, if we don't want to talk about something, we might create a cautionary 376 00:43:53,400 --> 00:44:00,440 tale around it as an easier

way to talk about the thing. But sometimes it's important to 377 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:09,680 talk about these scary things in order to heal and not to be afraid all the time. I 378 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:15,760 mean, but then it's also, fear is also kind of a warning of danger. So it's something 379 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:24,960 that's important to be listening to. But these are things that I think that are so fun to 380 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:35,240 kind of play around with within storytelling, especially if you have someone that has kind 381 00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:42,960 of the tension that comes with this, the kind of the making of the mistake is also very 382 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,120 an important part, I think. 383 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,720 Adults are almost absent from the film. I mean, it's really told from the point of view 384 00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:56,120 of the children. What is it that made you choose to write a story from that perspective? 385 00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:05,640 Yeah, I think that that was just something that was very early on, something that was 386 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:11,600 fun to play around with, especially, mostly because of partially my experience growing 387 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:18,120 up and having adventures with my brother and our friends. But when we got there in Topang 388 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:23,880 for the very first time, when the sun kind of rises up in the sky and then doesn't set 389 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:32,720 for 24 hours, or actually doesn't set for 11 days, the kids, they just have basically 390 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:38,880 free reign of this place. And the adults still have to go to work in the day and they kind 391 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:44,160 of live their normal lives. But the kids, they're just out of school. And because this 392 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,560 is the one time of year where the sun, it's just up all the time and it's beautiful and 393 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:55,240 the kids can be out exploring that they're encouraged to do so. And so you just see these 394 00:45:55,240 --> 00:46:00,880 like gigantic packs of kids at three in the morning walking around playing and it's like 395 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:10,600 a ghost town. And so to be able to kind of showcase that side of the community was something 396 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,680 that we wanted to explore. 397 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,880 And is there anything you can tell us about the next film? Is there anything you would 398 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:23,120 be able to share at this point? Is it going to be more genre defying narrative with a 399 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,880 bit of horror? Or what can you tell us? 400 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:39,120 Yeah, yeah, it's I would say it's a comedy tragedy disguised as a horror. It is more 401 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:45,240 of an adult horror for sure. That was a goal of mine to kind of do something a little more 402 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:55,360 mature. And it was written at a time of kind of confusion. It happened in the middle of 403 00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:05,240 the pandemic and the summer of 2020, specifically when the world was just changing. You know, 404 00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:11,880 the death of George Floyd changed the way we talk about race and and representation 405 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:20,840 and the get out had come out and every and changed everything and parasite had won best 406 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:28,480 picture. And so I found that a lot of people were really interested in racialized storytellers 407 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:36,520 talking about race, but in a fun way. And I was struggling a little bit with the ethics 408 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,560 of drawing from trauma for entertainment, whether it was my own trauma or what felt 409 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:49,420 so much worse was my community's trauma. Again, the cool thing about working in in making 410 00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:55,040 movies and horror is that I got to take that anxiety that I was thinking and just have 411 00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:03,360 that be the focus. And so it really kind of is is something that deals with with a bit 412 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:11,400 of those issues and in a bit of a meta way. And where will the film take place? We're 413 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:17,120 going to film it in Toronto ish. It's going to be kind of it's called In the Heart of 414 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,480 the South. So it's not filmed in the Arctic because we basically call anywhere that's 415 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:25,760 not the Arctic, the South. And I know that when you agreed to come on the podcast and 416 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:33,020 you suggested to speak about psycho, I'm wondering if you might give our listeners who might 417 00:48:33,020 --> 00:48:38,360 not have already seen psycho. Can you give them in your own words a reason why we should 418 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,840 watch psycho today? You know, we know about what's problematic about Hitchcock, but why 419 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:52,480 should we still watch Hitchcock? Yeah, I think that I mean, and you know, I think it's important 420 00:48:52,480 --> 00:49:00,200 to get to to recognize that Hitchcock is a controversial guy. But, you know, there are 421 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:07,560 these really amazingly strong performances by these women that that drive the movie and 422 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:16,160 and this, you know, love of these two sisters. And I think it's such a fun and influential 423 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:23,920 horror movie on and and it's really one that I feel like the themes that are within it. 424 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:31,960 I mean, I can watch it now as a 37 year old. And my understanding of the themes are so 425 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:37,960 different than what my understandings must have been when I was 15 and watching it for 426 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:45,520 the first time. Yeah, I think that it's it's really kind of interesting to, you

know, these 427 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:54,720 these dynamics and are so interesting to be considering and exploring. And I feel just 428 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:59,960 as relevant today. Thank you. And it's as you said earlier, too, that filmmaking is 429 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:04,800 such a collective effort to that we don't, you know, it's really important to emphasize, 430 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,000 as you said, those powerful performances from the actors, what we get from the musical composer, 431 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:16,200 the editing, all of these elements that work together to make the film this cohesive unit. 432 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:22,240 Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, we talk a lot about a tours and that sort of thing. 433 00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:28,780 But my little brother who directs animated stuff is we kind of joke that people that 434 00:50:28,780 --> 00:50:36,840 identify as tours are probably overestimating their importance to the project, which directors 435 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:45,480 probably do anyway as a personality trait. But it is it really is such a team sport. 436 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:51,600 And and the so it involves so many amazingly talented people coming together and bringing 437 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:59,000 their ideas. I think for me, what I try and focus on in the in the process of making movies 438 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:06,360 really is that collective effort that it is so amazing that work, this group of people 439 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:13,080 are coming together and making something from just an idea and that there was nothing that 440 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:19,840 existed before. But we kind of came together and created something. I think that that process 441 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:27,320 is so special that it is to me almost, you know, that is the thing. Hopefully, then we 442 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:35,720 feel proud enough that we can be sharing it. And and I sometimes I'll watch a movie and 443 00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:42,000 I know that I had said that, you know, I watch movies differently, but I still will sometimes 444 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:49,040 just turn on a movie I haven't seen before and then just be so delighted and just feel 445 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:56,320 like, oh, wow, I just like someone presented this little gift. And I mean, this team of 446 00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:03,720 people have presented this created this little this experience and it's and story and it's 447 00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:11,440 and so it's so kind of I do still believe in this kind of magic of the story. 448 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,560 And this relates to what you were saying about the fact that sometimes people are too harsh 449 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:22,520 when they don't like a film and they forget the huge amount of work and love that the 450 00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,480 people making the films put into them. 451 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:34,960 Yeah. And it's certainly with with Slashback where we were trying to do something that 452 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:42,400 was a bit different and and, you know, considering how we did it and how the community was involved, 453 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:50,320 I think that it was. Yeah, I mean, but also I should say that if if I was to do it again, 454 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:58,040 I would do it entirely differently. It's but that's I think also just for myself, I can 455 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:03,360 can only be super grateful for the for the experience and the lessons and just try and 456 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:04,960 get better, really. 457 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:09,920 Is there a question we haven't asked that we should have asked? 458 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:14,080 No, no, no. 459 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,720 We really thank you for spending this hour with us. We really appreciated hearing more 460 00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:24,280 about your process and how it relates to your own cinephilia and the films that have been 461 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:33,440 important to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. 462 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,600 Thank you for listening to After Images. Please subscribe on your favorite podcast app and 463 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,520 follow After Images podcast on social media.