บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Free Forever: Access over Revenue ft. Jessica Revell & Gareth Prior

app, they can message us or leave a message on there. and we we can literally change it around. We don't have to rely David Bancroft: Brilliant. Jessica Revell: on outside developers. so it just makes us completely agile. it also means we David Bancroft: Yeah Jessica Revell: never actually come away from it, but yeah. David Bancroft: So, respectfully, and obviously I know quite a few people that have developed apps in the past and launched them in the stores and had varied success, but is this a full-time pursuit for you or do you still maintain your careers and jobs outside of Pocket Power? Jessica Revell: We both gave both gave them up a a few years ago. Gareth first and I carried David Bancroft: Amazing. Yep. Jessica Revell: on with with private clients, just while Gareth sort of got his head into the coding and everything else, enough to be able to teach me David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: as much as I needed to know to do what I was doing with it. David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: but then it it soon became very apparent that no, th this is our full time thing. so we David Bancroft: Amazing. Yeah. Jessica Revell: both gave up everything and and and yeah. concentrated on on this and this is it's I mean it's been a it it has been like with anything that's worthwhile, it has been an eye open a complete eye opener. And I think if you're following a passion, David Bancroft: Yes. Jessica Revell: whether it's a a personal passion, a business passion, if you're following that David Bancroft: Yep. Jessica Revell: passion, the learning curves and the frustrations and the and the the thrills and and and everything else that comes along with it has just kept us riding this wave of, my goodness, what was that? kind David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jessica Revell: of where we are now. But yeah, it it's been a journey. But yeah, no we Yeah, we we g both gave up that a long time ago. David Bancroft: And how long did it take you to get to that MVP you referenced Gareth? Because, know, an idea is great. People have ideas every day out of week, but to actually reach MVP, having not been able to code in the in-between times, how long did it actually take you to get from idea to MVP? Gareth: probably about two to three years. And and now David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, okay. Gareth: it's taken a further eight months to turn that MVP into what it is today, which David Bancroft: Yes. Gareth: is which is developing consistently every day, but where we are right now is where we wanted to be. Jessica Revell: Well, with within those two to David Bancroft: Amazing. Jessica Revell: three years, that does include research focus groups, testing, Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: coming back, reiterating, going back out. So f from from idea to actual VP was probably a year, and then it was another year or so going out to different groups, David Bancroft: Mm. Mm. Jessica Revell: testing it, coming back, rebuilding, going back out, testing it again and and reiterating it.

David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's very clear through the time I've had speaking with you guys before this recording that you're not the sort that going to half ass anything. You Jessica Revell: No. David Bancroft: know, you're going to do it properly or not at all. And clearly you've put the time and the effort into to make something that's really valuable to your users and should be a positive addition to their smartphone. Cause there's plenty that aren't. Gareth: yeah. Jessica Revell: What's up? Gareth: Especially in our field of work. David Bancroft: No doubt. Yeah. Yes. Jessica Revell: Yeah. But let's actually hit David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: the nail on the head because there's there's one sentence we'll never ever use and that's that will do. If the answer is that will do, David Bancroft: Okay. Jessica Revell: well then it's not it's not happening because exactly as you David Bancroft: That's interesting. Jessica Revell: said, we will go back and re we will do it until it's exactly David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: as we envisage it and exactly as as David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: it will help someone. if it's a that will do, then it's not gonna happen. David Bancroft: That's really interesting, Jess, because I picked up and it's probably something that I have practiced for quite a long time now, but someone crystallized it. One of our previous guests actually, Kat, crystallized saying whereby done is better than perfect. And for me in what I do, and I'm talking mainly about content and releasing pods and I creating posts and whatnot done very much. is better than perfect because you're never going to get to that perfect point. But again, there's a nuance in what you're doing whereby it has to be done to an acceptable level to allow you to really support. you're just slightly on the other side of that, aren't you, I guess. Jessica Revell: Think, yeah, I mean, done is very much better than than perfect because you're always going to start. I mean, when you're talking about any project, self-improvement or anything, starting from where you are is David Bancroft: Yeah. Yes. Jessica Revell: and and doing it imperfectly is better than not doing it at all. I think from the aspect of of what we're talking about, if if we're talking about the language that runs through the app, for example, or how it looks, or or anything that is going out into our customers' hands, then David Bancroft: Yes. Jessica Revell: then it has to be this marker because if it isn't going to help someone, then David Bancroft: Yeah, yes. Jessica Revell: what why are we doing it? So there's always that question of who does this benefit. And if the David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Jessica Revell: language is incorrect, for example, if if there's any negative or if if it promotes any form of obsession, then we have to be very careful. So we're very careful with what we're putting out there because of because David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Revell: of the

kind of app it is, it has to be of a certain level. So yes, done is very much better than than perfect. David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: Unless unless it's done to a lower level and is going to do more damage, in which case we're gonna go. David Bancroft: Yeah, can't be detrimental. again, Gareth, they're pretty hard no there as far as, Gareth: Yeah. David Bancroft: you know, just responding to that. Yeah, which is, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. That's great. So have you done, you mentioned there about wording and I guess we're talking about brand and the identity. I love the little character, incidentally, that's on the app. Have you created all of that yourselves or did you use someone outside of the business to help with that? Gareth: No, that's that's all been us. So everything that you see is David Bancroft: Wow. Yeah. Gareth: what we have created. You know, we've we've used, David Bancroft: Amazing. Gareth: we've we've leveraged all the tools that are available to us, but we David Bancroft: Yeah, yes. Gareth: are the one, you know, that that's that's what you do. Manufacturing is manufacturing. David Bancroft: Mm-mm. Gareth: and engineering is engineering, you use what you've got, but David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: every decision, everything on that app is us. And and David Bancroft: Yeah. Wow. Gareth: you know. The the back end of it, you know, the words, you know, you just picked up on that. The words are so important to us because I learn a a very early age, I'm all I'm I'm I'm aspergic and I'm dyslexic. but David Bancroft: Okay. Gareth: I'm fascinated because I think from that perspective, I'm fascinated with words and with the David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: counseling, how words affect who you are and what you believe you are. David Bancroft: Yes, okay, Gareth: So there there's David Bancroft: that's interesting. Gareth: a really deep resonance behind everything that we do with that in mind. David Bancroft: Yeah. And, and again, that actually picked up on something that was recently brought up in another pod, that, you may be able to look back on, and, and the power of words and the power of language specifically. it's funny because I speak to people, you know, from all sorts of different industries, vertical specialisms, but there's so many connecting points and touch points in, in these conversations and And yeah, it's focusing on those in a real positive way, which is amazing. So it sounds great, the app, and obviously you've had a chance to speak with me about it again, pre-chat. What would it cost to use a monthly because we understand the value and the benefit and I hope our audience does now as well, but what's that cost per month? Jessica Revell: Absolutely nothing. The entire platform, whether you're coming on as an individual download, whether you're coming on as one of our teachers who wants to share your expertise through either the David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Jessica Revell: studio for physical activity, remedy rooms for Gareth: Good job. Jessica Revell: lifestyle courses, or in the kitchen for cooking videos, or whether you come to us and take one of our hub spaces, which is a completely private, branded space for your organisation. David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: whichever of the whichever entry points you're coming into it as is is is zero cost. And and that was a that that's what we set out to achieve because of our own lived experience. But David Bancroft: Mm. Yeah. Jessica Revell: also it's a commercial factor as well because the majority of people we're wanting to help have been outpriced in one way or another, whether that's because every app is expensive David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Jessica Revell: or you need multiple apps, so to remove that that area altogether, Just makes it available to everyone. David Bancroft: Well, and again, I mean, I don't feel it's a naive question. I just assumed that there would be a cost and you you would, you know, you might have a freemium, so 14 day trial ordinarily or seven days or something, but for you guys, is free for life. is, that's the deal. Jessica Revell: That is that's it. It's it's forever free. I I'm gonna speak for both of David Bancroft: Wow, I love that. Jessica Revell: us here because obviously I know Gareth's background as as well, but we we both come from a background whereby we required help of of various different levels, whether it was a a physical help or or a mental or help with mental health. and David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Jessica Revell: it it it's just not available David Bancroft: No. Jessica Revell: if you haven't got deep pockets or if if you're not willing to wait for months and months and months. and we wanted David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: to get this help out there because there are lots of people who Just to be able to click open an app and and just to get some, whether it's in the community room or wherever they are, to have that reassurance that there is help that they can do and and they can empower themselves makes the world of difference. And it's everything we wished we'd had when we needed it the most. David Bancroft: can I just give you one of these? Gareth: It's just like that. David Bancroft: Perfect. Sorry, I wouldn't Jessica Revell: Yeah. David Bancroft: usually interrupt, it felt appropriate there. That's awesome. Jessica Revell: Yeah. David Bancroft: actually, I keep this almost like an alumni comeback now, but a previous guest of ours, actually, Joe Emery, who spoke very candidly about his challenges. He has suffered five redundancies in five years. He's a copywriter by trade. Really, really tough. time he's had and he spoke about wanting to get, and he wouldn't mind me saying this because of course he shared it on the pod. He spoke about wanting to get support and the NHS waiting list was years and professional support was pay walls and levels that you just can't access if you're not employed, obviously. And he said he'd actually turn to chat GPT for support, which

you know, you use what's available as you've said, but if there are other options that are slightly, well, I say slightly, more thoroughly thought through. I mean, that's got to be something that he should be looking at, I would have thought, because chat GPT, I for starters, it's a people pleaser and a echo chamber and all of these other things. I don't know if it's really best suited to the sort of things that we're talking about here. What do you think? Jessica Revell: Gareth take this one because he's y you're on the tech side. But we that that's given that we've had lots of consideration on over this point as well. Gareth: Yeah. no. I I you got you got chat absolutely nailed there. all of the AIs want to help you answer the question that you're asking. David Bancroft: Yes. Gareth: and that's it. That you d you've given it its remit. It's not looking at it from a perspective of an overall. You know, as a counselor, what one of the things you learn as a counsellor is to listen. You know, that's that's one of the Core skills is to listen. And what someone says is not necessarily what they mean. It's in how they say it. It's it's it's in all the nuance. That is not David Bancroft: Yes, understood, yeah. Gareth: available on on on a text. so yeah. David Bancroft: Yeah, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. Gareth: So so it will it will feed you back what you want to hear. because that's what you've asked it for. It's not doing a bad job. It just doesn't know how to interpret what you're asking it or what you're Jessica Revell: And that David Bancroft: What's following a command, it's following Jessica Revell: yeah. David Bancroft: a command. And we spoke about this for vibe coding and app. know, if you say, I want this to be blue and it makes it blue, then it's followed a command. you know, in the psychological sense, when you're speaking to it, you know, it might feel good in the moment, but it's probably missing all sorts of different ways in which it could actively help and progress, you know, that conversation. Jessica Revell: That's where with the with the intelligence that runs through Pocket Power has been created using the individual's actual data. Now, whether that's through what they're manually inputting or what we're reading from their wearables. The AI that runs through the app, which is PAPI, the AI David Bancroft: Yep. Jessica Revell: is just there for conversation. It doesn't do anything else. All of the information David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: we're feeding back is based purely on that user's individual data. And that's done through a science-based methodology, it's completely repeatable. and then Pappy comes in and interprets that and feeds it back in a conversational fun way. So the person, the individual is getting information based on their life and their behaviours, David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Revell: but in a fun and engaging way so it doesn't feel clinical. David Bancroft: Okay, that makes sense.

Yeah. And presumably then Pappy will remember perhaps conversations happened in the past. So not every chat is unique. There's a sort of a memory base there that helps it to properly form its advice. Is that right? Gareth: Yeah. so in in the back end, we're saving everything up to at the moment eighteen months. David Bancroft: Okay, yep. Gareth: so but as Jess just said, we're not just looking at a conversation you might put in now. You know, it's like, David Bancroft: Yes, yeah, understood. Gareth: Well, last week you went this, this and this, what was going on? you know, you haven't exercised, you you haven't walked for for five days. What's happening? You know, it has David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Gareth: that level of detail. It's It's w we originally we originally in envisaged it as a coach to be David Bancroft: Mm. Gareth: able to look at your life and say, Okay, you are where you are. But this is how David Bancroft: Mm-hmm, yeah. Gareth: you've got here. How do you want to be going forward? David Bancroft: Love that. Jessica Revell: But what but this is where the power of words come into it because Pappy is is very much programmed to never be judgy, never be finger pointing. one thing we are very conscious of is encouraging any form of obsessional behaviour. and this it David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: comes from and my I grew up with with a history of eating disorders. And so when we're looking at nutrition and food, we're doing so from a gut health point of view. And with the food login, we're looking at symptoms and how the food makes you feel as opposed to calorie counting. we're not calorie counselling David Bancroft: Mm. Mm. Jessica Revell: because that be can promote an obsessional behaviour. So everything is done through a health perspective, not not a not an obsessional. So all the words that Pappy comes back with is is done very intentionally. David Bancroft: That's brilliant. And if for example, like I did recently, I go on holiday and I overindulge and I don't know, God knows what Pappy would have said to me then, but if I stop actively inputting data, so I'm on holiday for a week, I just don't want to log the beers or the tapas or whatever it is that I'm getting through. What happens then when I do resurface, does Pappy address the fact that I've been missing or? or ask about what's happened there or where would it pick up if you opted out for a week or two or something. Jessica Revell: The moment that there's there's a streak freeze as it were, so it will it will ask if if you want to it so it saves and it kind of keeps a record. One thing I'm I'm sort of looking at Gareth to say because it's a new thing we have we're we're that's coming into it very soon, it's just not there yet. So I'm looking for a nod from Gareth to see if I if yeah, I've got I've got the nod. So David Bancroft: Ooh, ooh. There it is. Gareth: Ha ha ha. Jessica Revell: so if you're going on holiday, you'll be able David Bancroft: Yes. Jessica Revell: to click a holiday mode, and then Pappy will ask where you're going. and if you're going to Spain, Pappy will put on his his little Panama hat and come to Spain with you. If you're going skiing, he'll get his skis out and go skiing with you. And he'll ask David Bancroft: I love that. Jessica Revell: you, do you want to continue the with this while you're away, or do you want to take David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Jessica Revell: a break from it and we pick up when we left off? So there's David Bancroft: That's cool. Jessica Revell: one thing again, it's never trying to going back to perfection. We're not trying to reach perfection. It's, you David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: know, if if you go on holiday and and you drink. beer every day with a glass of wine and some tapas and you have this. Well it doesn't mean you've undone anything. It means you've gone on holiday and had a lovely time. You know, is there there's no guilt David Bancroft: You missed out the word copious there, Jess. Jessica Revell: Sorry, did I? I thought that was implied. Gareth: I thought I'd be shipping floor. Yeah. David Bancroft: dear. Jessica Revell: but it it's encouraging people to because it isn't just about, you know, the the app isn't just about what you eat and what you drink. It's also about are you looking after yourself and and enjoying yourself and having these these moments of of enjoyment without guilt? and it is about helping people to live their life. David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: and move forward and and and live a life of purpose. It isn't just about what did you eat? What did you what did you drink? What did what exercise did you do? That's only part of the app. You know, there's the whole community group on there as well. It's about giving people community to share it with. It's about giving people purpose and helping them understand what their goals are and helping them David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: put steps in place to achieve it. So it isn't just food and drink. The food and drink aspect is there to help people understand how that gives them the motivation or not to do everything else in their life. David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Jessica Revell: so we're not a fitness app in that sense. It's it's the the the three pillars of of health that help people move forward with their life and and get unstuck from where they are. David Bancroft: No, think that's brilliant as well because when I was away recently, I actively sort left my phone on airplane mode for the vast majority of time. Had a few check-ins as I have to in a business, so I can't just opt out in that way, particularly as a small company. But yeah, I found that digital detox, as I guess people would call it these days, really, really refreshing. It's something I haven't done much of in the past, always connected. That's interesting. So I'm just thinking about this. So you left your jobs. It's a free app, obviously. Do you have grants? Do you have funding? Do you have investors that

have made this possible for you? Or how do we get sort of a number of years down the road? Jessica Revell: We've Gareth: yeah, go on. Jessica Revell: said we've we've we've tried and this is you you've actually brought up a a really interesting thing that that we've for for a year or two now struggled with as a startup, whether it's a tech startup or a startup of any of any nature. We have received support from Southend Council and Essex Council and and they are actually David Bancroft: brilliant. Jessica Revell: both really, really very, very good at support. From a here's a mentor to help you through perspective. And South End Council had to give us a grant to help with equipment, which at the time was phenomenal because it enabled us to move forward and grow. David Bancroft: amazing. That's Yeah. Jessica Revell: The whole that we found generally, I think, and I think other small businesses and startups out there will will probably have experienced the same thing. If you are so far down the line and you've got your product out there and it's live, but you're not yet this big revenue generating machine. David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: There's nothing there there's no grants out there because you've gone past the startup mode, you've gone past the well you're at an idea stage, let us help you. But you're not quite David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Jessica Revell: at the okay, you're you're you're revenue generating, jump on on this train and and let's push you forward. You're in this void. David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: And at that point there's there are that there's nothing at all. David Bancroft: Wow, so you're fending for yourself bootstrapping. Jessica Revell: Yeah, completely. Gareth: We've we've a hundred percent David Bancroft: Right up until now. Gareth: bootstrapped this so far. And that included Yeah. David Bancroft: Yeah. Wow. Jessica Revell: Yeah. And the beans on toast walk with the beans on toast welding with Sestimans do David Bancroft: Yeah, don't judge me, Papi. just going back to the food, actually, you mentioned there are beans on toast. mean, presumably the app caters for vegetarians, Jessica Revell: Hundred percent. So yeah, so well whether it's whether you are vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, you can you can tell Pocket Power Pappy any of your diet free requirements, whether you're gluten free. and as David Bancroft: Hmm. Jessica Revell: you're logging your food, actually, even more than that, when you're going shopping, you can actually scan barcode in the shop using the app and it will tell you if are if there are any allergens within that product that you should perhaps avoid. And if you've said you're vegetarian or vegan. Or Celiac, for example, it will tell you if there's anything in there that you should avoid as well. So yeah, it completely caters f for all of that. But also in the and this comes through when we was doing test research and and development stage, we had all the recipes that helped people through the the

the programme. But we we had a lot of people in the in the focus group. That pointed out that actually they can't just go into a supermarket and buy the products because that they didn't have the money for for that. So where do they go with these recipes? and we took David Bancroft: Mmm. Jessica Revell: that and we looked at all the sort of things that people can get from a food bank, and we've created a section within breakfast, lunch, dinners, sides that you only require ingredients from a food bank for. So it it caters David Bancroft: Well... Jessica Revell: for not just dietary requirements, but also economic requirements as well. David Bancroft: Yeah. Fantastic. I can't keep it in the clap button, I feel like I feel, tell you what, actually, let's go through one more time. Just one more time. One more time. One more time. Little short clap. Yeah, there we go. Little short clap. That's it. Jessica Revell: I'll take it. David Bancroft: So before we move on, I'd love to just jump a little bit more into your backgrounds, you know, prior to Pocket Power. But before we do that, if I can just sort of move away slightly and ask you what your book recommendation may be, because I have a habit of putting the sort of two features lumping them at the end. So if we can do the book now, come back to the golden nugget later, that would be good. So I don't know if you've got two books, one book, a shared book or whatnot, but if I'm just pass over, you know, what your book recommendation would be. Gareth: Well that well we we've got a shared book. I'll I'll let Jess do that one 'cause she's she's taken that one from me. Jessica Revell: Well so Gareth actually recommended a book to me a while ago and it took me a while to get around to reading it. When David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Jessica Revell: I did eventually sit down, I couldn't put the book down. and in fact not only did I put the not put the book down, I picked up a highlighter pen and frantically highlighted so many chapters, so many but just it was the most beautiful book I think I have ever written written. I wish I had read. David Bancroft: Yeah, Jessica Revell: And I I actually David Bancroft: you speak very highly of this book you wrote. Jessica Revell: know it'll club. it's it's it's actually a book that I I now hold. I actually sleep with it in in with it next to my bed. it's a beautiful book. it actually the the the title of it makes it sound quite religious. It it it isn't. David Bancroft: Right. Jessica Revell: it's called Conversations with God. it's from an author, Neil, I have to check his name, Neil Donald Walsh. and If you've ever asked yourself questions like, why doesn't anything ever work for me? why do I struggle so much? Why isn't this? It answers everything just beautifully. and David Bancroft: Amazing. Jessica Revell: so, yeah, so thanks to Gareth for for allowing me to pinch your book recommendation and thank you for recommending it Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: to me. but if you yeah, if you can read one book, it's not a very long book, but it is an it is an absolutely beautiful book. David Bancroft: So there we have the first time we've had a book recommendation that's been recommended to someone who's then recommended it to our audience. So there you go. That's a winner. That's a winner. Awesome. Jessica Revell: Absolutely. Gareth: Well It's it's it's one that I've David Bancroft: So, sorry, gone. Gareth: I've listened to, so I've got it on Audible. I I don't David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Gareth: I I say I don't read, I don't take the information in as quickly. so I listen to it and I've listened David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gareth: to that book probably thirty, forty times. it's one that you can go back to and you get something different from David Bancroft: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Gareth: it every time you you you go to it. Because you're at a different stage. if you're progressing in your life, you're changing. And so David Bancroft: Yes. Gareth: you see it from a different perspective every single time you come back to it. David Bancroft: Yeah, I mean that is that's a huge amount of times you've listened to it. So yeah, I'm excited to check this one out. And actually I prefer an audio book. Again, I just absorb the information far better that way. Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: I'm the complete Gareth: Well it's it's our natural one. Jessica Revell: opposite, you say. I I can't I no, I I can't I I struggle to absorb the information in David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: order. I have to read it and I I absorb David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: it's it's fascinates, isn't it, how people absorb information differently. David Bancroft: Well, yeah, a good friend of mine, actually, she listens to podcasts and specifically when she swims. So she's got one Gareth: Okay. David Bancroft: of these, what are they called? They don't go in your ears, they're sort of bone. I don't know, I don't know, I've solved them very well there. The headphones, just, and yeah, Jessica Revell: Yeah. David Bancroft: she just sort of does her lengths and is listening to a podcast as she goes. And she loves it. It helps her get through her swim. She absorbs the information well then and yeah, I guess it keeps you occupied, doesn't it? And takes your mind off of what the monotony of links might be, I guess. So, yeah, it is interesting. And I love it that there's different mediums now that allow you to have access to the same resource, whether Gareth: Yeah. David Bancroft: it be reading it or listening to it. It's very good, isn't it? No, it's very good. So getting back to your story up until now, obviously you've spoken about your separate professions that have now sort of met and created a pocket power app. I mean, has tech, it ever on the radar was, was, you know, having an app ever a thing for you guys? Was it an ambition or, or, or was it just the perfect storm that created the, the concept? Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: Explained it quite well

really, yeah. I it David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: just Gareth: it Jessica Revell: it just happened, didn't it? Gareth: Yeah. And it has taken on a life of its own as well. David Bancroft: Go on, how do you mean? What's the best example of that? Gareth: I I think you know, it it's it's a difficult one without without touching on too many Different elements, but it's listening. you know, that part part of the skills that I learned as a counselor was to listen. and part of that is to listen to me and what I feel. David Bancroft: Yes? Gareth: you know, in lots of different cultures, it's called lots of different things, faith being one of them. And you know, it's having that just that solid listening to yourself and David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: You you look for the you look for what feels right. and c us coming together was Jess was giving you know, passing c clients on to me, I was passing clients on to her as David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Gareth: separate businesses. We bought that together because it felt right. Then it was we we started the the charity to deliver a course to people that couldn't afford it because we wanted it to get it out to more people. And then it's How do we get this out to more people? And you just it's David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Gareth: just this constant step. It's you know, David Bancroft: Hmm. Gareth: it is the journey of a thousand miles, is step by step by step. And each every time you you take a step, you listen. Right. Okay, well where where am I going next? You step. David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Gareth: Where am I going next? And it's having that journey. And and I think David Bancroft: Mm. Gareth: that's some some days with with the tech now to to really take it to the other end of the degree is I'll ask I'll ask it to create something, exactly what you were saying earlier. You you asked that that you know, you ask for the colour blue. I ask for something, and it comes back and and and I'm sitting there going, that's exactly what I meant, but I didn't know how to put it into words. David Bancroft: Yeah, amazing. Yeah. Wow. Sweet. Jessica Revell: It's always seeing it's also seeing those moments as well where something will happen. You think, that that it might it might be completely insignificant at the time, or you might think, What was what on earth was that about? And then a week later or two weeks later, something else will happen that you required something from that previous experience to to fill that gap with. And you think, that's that's why that happened. Now we can implement that. And that actually opens up David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: all of this. So it is it's just been completely intuitive and and not forcing anything. David Bancroft: And it's comprehending those things, even if it's not in a way that you would have originally sort of instructed it, it's building a comprehension. Amazing. Jessica Revell: lots lots of those moments. Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: We often say if if if we if somebody had said to us three years ago this is what would this is what's going to happen over the next three years and these are the hurdles you you'd be jumping in. These are the this is the curvature you're you the trajectory you're going to be on, I think we would have taken a step back and and thought about it long and hard. we probably would have still have gone ahead with it but it is David Bancroft: Hmm. No doubt. Jessica Revell: it's it's the not knowing and just having that that belief that each step forward is the right step. yeah. David Bancroft: Amazing. So obviously I align it with business and I always like to think I know what success looks like. I think I know what success looks like for me. And as a recruiter, I think I know what it looks like for the candidates that I work with and of course the clients that I engage. What does success look like for you guys? Gareth: I I think that changes. That that that grows and grows as as we grow, that grows. You know, we we were y fr from from from my perspective, English people are quite reserved. and you see this across the world and it's like, well, this is what I'm capable of. And David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: this is one of the things that we've learned doing this, is that David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Gareth: we're capable and you know w the pair of us have have exceeded what we what we ever thought we could do, you know, every step of the way. But David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: this journey, it's Success on this journey is the majority of the planet using Jessica Revell: Mm. David Bancroft: Mm. Mm. Mm. Gareth: the app. It's it's you know and to and to deliver something that is that valuable. David Bancroft: Yeah, so this huge ambition. Gareth: yeah. Jessica Revell: yeah. But I think just to add to that as well, I think I I think we've we've already seen success. We experience success every single day because creating what we're doing has given us the ability to to be able to walk down to the bottom of the road and sit on the beach. and to be able to have the freedom to do that is success. And David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Jessica Revell: at the moment we are completing application form for an award that really, really, really hoping we get. but part of the application form is to it is to provide some of our some of our research that we've had, so all the tests and research groups and feedback forms from the people and the cohorts that we had to test the product with a while ago. And we had to to we have to provide that in a package. And so David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: it's given me the opportunity again to read through some of the feedback that we've had. And it I was talking to Gareth about this this morning, and just reminding him as well. To look at some of these feedbacks because that they're heartwarming and the comments David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: that we've had back has literally changed people's lives. And I don't say that lightheartedly. They've literally the

words they're giving us are literally saying how it has changed them fundamentally. and that's me a success because David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Revell: something we have done has helped someone to that level or has helped someone to at least start thinking about approaching that. So that that to me is already success. David Bancroft: Yeah, no, well done. And actually that's great. And there must be challenging times for you guys and difficult, you know, launching. Anything is tough and making it viable. But I guess looking back again at some of those case studies and some of the feedback you've received must be quite, quite buoying. It must really sort of energise you, I would have thought. Jessica Revell: Very much so. because Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: yeah, you it is a lot of the time you do you get these really high highs and then you can get these really low lows. and you do David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jessica Revell: you sort of you do spend some of your time thinking, my goodness, when what you know, everyone says it will happen if you keep going, it will happen. And think, excellent, when? and but I think again where where we are so lucky, we're David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: not doing this solo. We're we're doing this as a team. There's the two of us. So if one of us has one of those moments, the other one can go. David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: It's fine and and we've got each other just we've got each other's back to to put each other out of those those darker moments and also to to be able to vent to each other as well. Whereas a David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: lot of solo entrepreneurs, solo startups, this is something David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: again we were talking about the other day, they haven't got that that companionship through it. So so yeah, I think we are very blessed in that front as well. David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to make companionship word of the day on the pod. So, companionship. Yeah. Strong, strong word companionship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Revell: Absolutely. Companionship. It's a big thing. Yes. Gareth: It is a big thing. Yeah. David Bancroft: No doubt. And, and, makes it all the easier. So no spot on. okay. How about NHS? And I'm thinking of partners and external, I don't know. users or triage. Do you have relationship with the NHS? Is that something you're looking to build out or could they support this? Jessica Revell: Because of the preventative health aspect and because the app, the way the app works, we run alongside very nicely alongside clinical help. So we're not that the app doesn't replace clin the clinical setting, it helps clinicians support their patients. David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: And because of the methodology that's in there as well, it helps people to work at home without requiring constant appointment settings. So David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: on that level we've had health innovation East have taken us on on one of their programs and that so they're looking to support us and hopefully that will lead David Bancroft: Amazing. Yeah. Jessica Revell: to some some sort of grants or just support David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Jessica Revell: you know anything that we require help with on that front David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: they're helping us with but we've also recently been accepted to apply for NIA which is the NHS innovation program and that's a three-year programme whereby we can go into a clinical setting David Bancroft: Amazing. Yeah. Jessica Revell: and again go through that whole process of hopefully stepping into the world of the NHS, which is a complete minefield. but with that yeah. So that's that's David Bancroft: Is it a world or is it a universe? mean, it feels bigger than a world. Jessica Revell: It is bigger than the world. It's a different it's a different yeah, it it's a different universe. Gareth: If yeah. Yeah, it's definitely alternative. David Bancroft: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's Jessica Revell: Yeah. David Bancroft: a beast, isn't it? Yeah. well done. mean, yeah. And again, I'm just, yeah, thinking out loud really who would be interested. How could you engage and what partners could you sort of build? But yeah, I mean, obviously you guys are busy on that. Jessica Revell: Well the the other, I mean the other partnership we've got can we call it a partnership? The other I suppose it is, Gareth: Yeah. Jessica Revell: through the CIC that we run, we've we've done work through the to the local job centres. and with the app now we've gone back to the local job centres. they understand the product very well because we did a lot of our tests and research through the cohorts. and they are now promoting pocket power through local job centres. David Bancroft: Already? Jessica Revell: and we're also David Bancroft: amazing. Jessica Revell: talking to the local council about different back-to-work schemes. and there's a central David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: government back to work scheme and helping people get connected back to work. and pocket David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: power is is amongst those conversations to implement David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: that within these within these schemes as well. So there's lots of fire David Bancroft: that's great. Jessica Revell: what's what's the word? Fires in the hole, hole in the fire. I don't know what the terminology is. David Bancroft: irons in the fire Jessica Revell: That's the one. David Bancroft: Ha Jessica Revell: There's lots of them. Gareth: Some of J some of Jess's analogies are awesome. David Bancroft: Yeah, I think that one's going down a slightly different road there, but yeah, I get it. I get it. No, Jessica Revell: Yeah. David Bancroft: that's great. And actually, again, just touching on my profession as a recruiter, I speak to, as you can probably imagine, lots of job seekers who are struggling in so many different ways Jessica Revell: Mm-hmm. David Bancroft:

and often through no obvious fault of their own. It's tough out there, isn't it? So actually, I'll link Pocket Power. and I'll actively look to, you know, recommend and sort of point people in your direction. So I think from what you've said, it sounds like a valuable resource, obviously. Jessica Revell: Well, actually, if if if can I if Gareth: Thank you. Jessica Revell: we can share a story exactly on on that helping people. So one of the ladies David Bancroft: Please do. Yeah. Jessica Revell: that we've worked with followed the app and the programme, and she was in her mid thirties and she's never worked at all. And she had a dream because we we focus a lot on where do you want to go in your life, etc. etc. And what what can you do to make that happen? Her dream was to go to Japan when she retired. She was in her mid thirties. so through as she worked her way through the programme, she started making the connection that actually, why is she waiting until she retires to do something she's so passionately wanting to do? So she brought that forward and made it her five year plan. And in doing so, she then realized and made the connection actually, if I want to go to Japan in five years, I need some money. And if I need some money, David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: I need to get a job. and so within that time frame, she actively started looking for jobs and started making job applications and then actually went on to interviews. So that's that's an entire I mean, when we say it's life changing, that changed her in her entire care completely. and there's David Bancroft: That's amazing. Yeah. Complete mind shift. Yeah. Jessica Revell: so many stories like that, but yeah, on on the job front, it's it's it's just changing one aspect of well, you want to do that, why why wait till you retire, do it now? And it's that snowball effect. David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a great example. Amazing. Gareth: It's it's actually something we haven't touched on. We've got a focus board on the David Bancroft: Okay. Gareth: on the app. And it it's you were talking about holidays. We David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Gareth: encourage we that there's four focuses on there. So you've got your short term, your long term, a new experience, and a new skill. So it's constantly encouraging you to find David Bancroft: My thing. Gareth: what do I want to do? What what's my purpose? because without purpose. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gareth: That's where a lot of people get lost. David Bancroft: It's really interesting as well, because I think a lot of people have ideas, but unless they're written down somewhere or committed, you know, to a board of that kind, they're just that, they? They're ideas. don't really, they haven't been crystallized, but I think sometimes by committing it to something, they become real. And by becoming real, you can now actively start working towards it as opposed to, Jessica Revell: I think it's David Bancroft: you know, I'll go to

Japan when I retire. It's very loose, isn't it? Jessica Revell: And I think it's it's I mean, if you know, you hear people talk about steps and and and you know taking one step at a time towards a goal. But I think before you even get to that stage, and it's one thing we we try to help people to realize, is when you're talking about something you clearly are very passionate about, it's and it's a goal and it's a dream of yours, talk about it with as much conviction as you would about going to the shops this afternoon. I'm going to the shops this afternoon. You know for a fact that's going to happen. Well, talk about your David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: dreams and with the same conviction. You know, don't just don't David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jessica Revell: just put them off, talk about them. Knowing that you are going to do them. And I think as soon as you get that clickover in your mind, you then start David Bancroft: Hmm. Jessica Revell: looking for ways to make it happen. And that's when you start David Bancroft: Hmm. Jessica Revell: taking those steps. David Bancroft: Yeah. I love that. No, I think that's fantastic. So guys, you'll be aware, obviously we have another feature, which is our golden nugget. We've introduced a slightly different, grander way of introducing that now. So I'm not sure who's going to pick this up, but I'll introduce it, give you a little drum roll, and then we'll hear from you obviously. But if you can, what is the one thought lesson? or piece of advice you'd like to leave our listeners with. More than give you a little. Jessica Revell: I jump in first then. Because I don't do that often. David Bancroft: Go for it. Go for it. Gareth: Okay. Jessica Revell: I think if you have a passion or a dream or anything that you have that keeps you awake at night and and keeps sticking over in your mind, start making it happen. And it is hard. Don't pretend it's not going to be, because there will be moments that will trip you up. Rest when you need to, but never give up on it. Because there'll be moments when you really want to because there will always be the old you that's trying to pull you back into your zone of familiarity. And if you keep sinking back into that, it's not going to happen. The second you can you can stretch that out and keep moving forward, that's when it happens. So rest rest when you need to, but don't give up. David Bancroft: love that Jess, I love that. And Gareth, Jess said there she would like to go first. Do you also have something you could share with us? Because if you do, if you do, then I'd love to, I'd love to reintroduce at first ever time, what's Gareth: Okay. David Bancroft: the one thought, lesson or piece of advice you'd like to leave our listeners with? Gareth: It's not one more day, it's one less. David Bancroft: Got you. Yes. Yes. There you go. Amazing. Short but sweet. So concise. But yeah, that's quite profound. That's actually quite profound. Gareth: Yeah. I d I think once you realise that, I learned that in a hard way when I was very young. but it isn't. You don't know what tomorrow holds. So it is David Bancroft: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Gareth: just it's it's make this day count. Because you don't know when it's when David Bancroft: Yeah, no, I think that's really. Gareth: it's not gonna be. David Bancroft: That's very strong. I love that. No, I really enjoyed the chat, Jess and Gareth, I really did. And obviously I've looked at Pocket Power beforehand. I've learned more about it now. And I think inevitably I'm going to become a user probably in the next 10 minutes or so, I would have thought. So yeah. Gareth: And please and and and do and please do and please give your feed share your feedback. You know, come into the community, share what you do. you know, that that's David Bancroft: I will do. Yeah, will do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gareth: a big part of where we're at. And it's it's the way we can make the model work for more people. Ca having people like you on board and saying, David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Mm. Gareth: Well, you know, I get this, but I don't get that. And how does this work? And that's how David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: we've you know, we see it from a perspective of we know how it works. So having people's David Bancroft: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Gareth: feedback is so valuable to us. So yes, please David Bancroft: Yeah. Gareth: please come join us. Jessica Revell: Yeah. As as as a new platform, we do have the community aspect. We do have the community feed in there. And that's one aspect, David Bancroft: Mm. Jessica Revell: as Gareth said, that we really are wanting to and trying to to to build. And obviously getting people in there and communicating and turning it into a community takes time to build. David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: So yeah, if when you're on the app, jump in there. and and David Bancroft: Yeah. Jessica Revell: we'd we'd love to to yeah to to see that feedback. David Bancroft: Now what do I? Jessica Revell: W anything anything, anything you experience in there, just treat it as another social aspect. David Bancroft: Yeah, absolutely. No, that will be my absolute pleasure guys, but really appreciate your time today. Best of luck with the app. It sounds amazing, so I'm sure it'll do fantastically. And that is real pleasure. Thank you. Jessica Revell: Thank you. And thank you for the time for to speaking to us. Yeah. Gareth: Yes, thank you. David Bancroft: Not a problem at all. So there you go guys, another episode and one that I really enjoyed. Loved meeting and speaking with both Jess and Gareth. I wish them the very best of luck for the future. I'm sure they'll do amazingly with the app. In the meantime, if you have any comments or if you could please subscribe, that'd be much appreciated. But for now, on to the next one.