บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 45 Forward #77 - After the Pandemic: Can We Redesign a Hybrid Office for Everyone?

decades. So a 68 00:03:56.629 --> 00:03:58.909 lot of people sort of jump in and say, well, 69 00:03:58.930 --> 00:04:02.150 this is what's different. But you have a significant perspective. 70 00:04:02.169 --> 00:04:05.229 So talk a bit about how you think the pandemic 71 00:04:05.969 --> 00:04:08.189 has been shaping work and will going forward. 72 00:04:09.449 --> 00:04:13.189 Well, I actually started something called the Future of Work 73 00:04:13.349 --> 00:04:16.449 Consortium more than a decade ago because I got a 74 00:04:16.509 --> 00:04:19.879 sense that those things Trends that you spoke of earlier, 75 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:22.860 you know, the demography, the fact we're going to live longer. 76 00:04:22.899 --> 00:04:25.620 You remember, Ron, I wrote that book with Andrew Scott 77 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:30.009 called The Hundred Year Life. Social trends, what's happening with families, 78 00:04:30.069 --> 00:04:33.470 and of course technology. Each one of those, I thought, 79 00:04:33.529 --> 00:04:38.110 was already shaping work. So I was already really thinking 80 00:04:38.189 --> 00:04:41.860 about work long before the pandemic came. And so when 81 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.810 that pandemic hit, I started keeping track. a diary in 82 00:04:45.870 --> 00:04:48.050 fact it's now on to my goodness knows I don't 83 00:04:48.069 --> 00:04:49.689 even know where I am with it now it's it's 84 00:04:49.709 --> 00:04:51.810 been I think I'm I think I must be I 85 00:04:51.829 --> 00:04:54.370 think this is my 22nd volume it's I've got a 86 00:04:54.389 --> 00:04:57.589 long day but at the same time I I have 87 00:04:57.670 --> 00:05:01.009 more than 40 companies who are on my future of 88 00:05:01.050 --> 00:05:04.670 work consortium so I got a really close look at 89 00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:07.420 what was going on really from the very beginning from 90 00:05:07.449 --> 00:05:10.920 those very first days um I looked for example at 91 00:05:11.019 --> 00:05:16.120 how Fujitsu a very traditional Japanese company where People always said, no, no, 92 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:17.350 we have to work in the office. 93 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:19.750 We can't work anywhere else. So important. 94 00:05:20.230 --> 00:05:25.050 Within a week of the COVID, they've moved 60,000 people 95 00:05:25.569 --> 00:05:29.329 out of Tokyo into their homes. But I'll tell you 96 00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:33.709 what's been really interesting, Ron, is that each company seems 97 00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:37.610 to have gone through its own journeys, creating its own signature. 98 00:05:37.670 --> 00:05:42.480 So I've seen a lot of variety about what organizations 99 00:05:42.540 --> 00:05:45.699 are doing. And I think that variety is important because 100 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:49.100 it gives workers, people like you and I, an opportunity 101 00:05:49.139 --> 00:05:52.839 to choose the companies that most closely align to their 102 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:57.920 own preferences. And of course, that's become even more important 103 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:01.100 over the last six months because the war of talent 104 00:06:01.779 --> 00:06:04.560 is heating up. I hadn't expected that. I think very 105 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:08.360 few of us did, but it is. And so what 106 00:06:09.490 --> 00:06:12.829 leaders are now trying to do is to find some 107 00:06:12.850 --> 00:06:16.629 sort of balance between ways of working that both boost 108 00:06:16.689 --> 00:06:20.829 people's creativity and productivity, but also giving them the sort 109 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.980 of product, the sort of flexibility that they that they crave. 110 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:26.019 Right. 111 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.000 And of course, you know, we all want flexibility. You know, 112 00:06:30.019 --> 00:06:33.199 we want the opportunity to on a daily basis to 113 00:06:33.259 --> 00:06:35.819 sometimes stay at home and stay in our pajamas or, 114 00:06:36.259 --> 00:06:38.040 you know, spend a bit more time with the kids. 115 00:06:38.329 --> 00:06:41.079 But on a weekly basis, we want the flexibility to 116 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:42.899 be able perhaps to. 117 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:45.259 You know, to do different things. 118 00:06:45.339 --> 00:06:48.819 And if we take a bigger, a longer perspective, you know, 119 00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:51.259 one of the things that we really noticed when we 120 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:55.620 studied what happens when we all live longer, I'm 67, 121 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:58.860 so I'm certainly very much part of that longer living lives, 122 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.519 is that we have multi-stage lives. You know, it's not 123 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:07.139 just simply... full-time education, full-time work, full-time retirement, it becomes 124 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:10.800 something a lot more complex and a lot more individual. 125 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.899 And my hope, and part of the reason why I 126 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:18.240 wrote the book, Redesigning Work, is that I wanted to 127 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:22.209 show people that there was an opportunity to be both productive, 128 00:07:23.389 --> 00:07:26.930 to be creative, and to be flexible. And I think, 129 00:07:27.589 --> 00:07:30.810 you know, given the trends that I've spoken about, particularly demography, 130 00:07:31.310 --> 00:07:34.589 all of us crave some sort of flexibility and some 131 00:07:34.629 --> 00:07:36.529 sort of autonomy. 132 00:07:35.790 --> 00:07:38.310 To design work the way that we want it. 133 00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:42.470 Right. Yeah. I think that, you know, certainly, and we'll 134 00:07:42.490 --> 00:07:44.029 get back to the pandemic in a minute, but I 135 00:07:44.089 --> 00:07:47.149 think that, you know, especially given your perspective, this is 136 00:07:47.209 --> 00:07:52.459 something that has been gradually, gradually moving for many decades. 137 00:07:53.139 --> 00:07:55.959 And so I

remember when I was starting to cover 138 00:07:56.060 --> 00:08:00.680 these issues, one of my first articles was about video 139 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:04.889 conferencing and in the mid 1980s and wow, this, whoa, 140 00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:08.399 could get people all together and from different offices. And, 141 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.759 you know, it was, there was, you know, there's satellite 142 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:13.329 feeds and there were, it was a sort of a, 143 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:17.699 these dramatic events. And then in the later 80s, I 144 00:08:19.230 --> 00:08:22.790 started writing quite a bit about, you know, at that point, well, look, 145 00:08:22.850 --> 00:08:28.009 I mean, let's face it, the entrance and the, I 146 00:08:28.050 --> 00:08:30.800 guess what I'd call sort of normalization of women at 147 00:08:30.939 --> 00:08:36.490 work in the office and, you know, in many offices, 148 00:08:38.070 --> 00:08:40.120 you know, raise the issue of, you know, work and 149 00:08:40.149 --> 00:08:43.330 family issues. And in those days, there was a sense of, 150 00:08:44.220 --> 00:08:45.940 you know, so that was the beginning. Well, we need 151 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:51.019 more flexibility for this is going to really work. And so, 152 00:08:51.259 --> 00:08:53.350 you know, this trend has been going on for a while. 153 00:08:53.389 --> 00:08:55.850 And so then there were issues of child care, like, well, 154 00:08:56.230 --> 00:08:58.490 how do we deal with child care? And now, of course, 155 00:08:58.529 --> 00:09:02.389 there's like elder care. So that's another dimension. But it 156 00:09:02.450 --> 00:09:05.649 does seem, as you have pointed out, that the pandemic 157 00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:10.389 has pushed things forward in a dramatic way. Talk about 158 00:09:10.429 --> 00:09:12.350 that a bit, you know, in terms of, you know, 159 00:09:12.549 --> 00:09:15.309 some people say, well, would things have advanced as quickly 160 00:09:15.769 --> 00:09:18.049 if not for the pandemic? 161 00:09:18.309 --> 00:09:25.529 Oh, well, I think absolutely. It's really, really moved things on. 162 00:09:25.950 --> 00:09:28.409 I mean, you were speaking, Ron, a moment ago about 163 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.220 technology and I think the view now from the technology 164 00:09:31.259 --> 00:09:34.399 companies is that it's moved people on at least five years, 165 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:37.980 not just in the development of technology, although that has 166 00:09:38.139 --> 00:09:42.769 definitely moved on, but also in our acceptance of using technology. 167 00:09:43.750 --> 00:09:45.809 I've been really sort of fascinated by some of the 168 00:09:45.850 --> 00:09:52.169 big consulting practices, for example, PwC or Accenture, who have 169 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:55.929 over the last year or two during the pandemic, really 170 00:09:56.690 --> 00:09:59.909 embraced technology to such an extent that they're using the 171 00:09:59.950 --> 00:10:04.639 metaverse and virtual reality as a way of bringing people 172 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:07.740 into the organization so that when you join the organization, 173 00:10:08.860 --> 00:10:13.320 your first experience meeting other people is to meet their avatars, 174 00:10:13.419 --> 00:10:16.399 not to meet them face to face. So And I 175 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:18.470 don't think that would have happened a couple of years ago. 176 00:10:18.590 --> 00:10:21.769 So there's been a huge push on technology and a 177 00:10:21.889 --> 00:10:25.549 real understanding that there's so much we can do at 178 00:10:25.610 --> 00:10:30.730 work using virtual reality, using as we're doing now, Zoom 179 00:10:30.789 --> 00:10:35.789 or Microsoft tools and so on. I think the second 180 00:10:35.850 --> 00:10:39.610 thing that's been really pushed forward, Ron, is an idea 181 00:10:39.690 --> 00:10:42.379 that you don't need to be in the office to work. 182 00:10:42.929 --> 00:10:45.470 I was talking to somebody recently a few weeks ago 183 00:10:45.490 --> 00:10:47.350 and he said, you know, Linda, the way we used 184 00:10:47.370 --> 00:10:50.990 to measure productivity, the way I knew that, you know, 185 00:10:51.029 --> 00:10:53.490 people were being productive is I just counted the number 186 00:10:53.509 --> 00:10:56.610 of cars in the car park coming in in the morning. And, 187 00:10:57.029 --> 00:10:59.929 you know, that was my measure of productivity. Well, you know, 188 00:11:00.070 --> 00:11:03.330 because we had nothing else, that's how lots of people 189 00:11:03.370 --> 00:11:06.809 measure productivity is our people sitting in the office. But 190 00:11:06.850 --> 00:11:09.769 of course, we always knew that that wasn't a great 191 00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:12.460 way of measuring productivity, but it was hard to think 192 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:17.210 of any other way And what's happened during the pandemic 193 00:11:17.350 --> 00:11:22.850 is as people started working from home, they realized they 194 00:11:22.950 --> 00:11:28.460 could still be productive. They could still do work using 195 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:32.200 these new technologies. They could still be really quite productive. 196 00:11:32.659 --> 00:11:35.659 But I think the third thing we realized, Ron, is 197 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.679 that not all jobs are the same. I was very 198 00:11:39.730 --> 00:11:42.889 much aware of this for myself because whilst I was 199 00:11:43.029 --> 00:11:47.059 able to to sit here in my lovely, what was 200 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.779 my dressing room, but is now my studio in Primrose Hill, 201 00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:54.940 which is just in the very center of London, and 202 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:57.399 did all my work. I taught all my students. I 203 00:11:57.419 --> 00:12:02.159 did a whole MBA class virtually. My son, Dominic, who 204 00:12:02.299 --> 00:12:05.149 is a doctor, was working on A & E for 205 00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:07.769

two years. He was an A & E doctor. That's 206 00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:10.830 accident and emergency in the UK. Well, he had to 207 00:12:10.870 --> 00:12:12.809 go to the hospital every day. There was no way 208 00:12:12.870 --> 00:12:15.870 that he could say, well, I'm working from home. And 209 00:12:15.909 --> 00:12:18.909 I think what it really showed us is that there's 210 00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:21.889 a whole bunch of jobs which were not jobs that 211 00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:24.509 were dependent on place. And then we had to start 212 00:12:24.549 --> 00:12:28.429 thinking about time. So quite early on in the pandemic, 213 00:12:29.230 --> 00:12:32.840 I wrote an article which then became the cover article 214 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.639 of Harvard Business Review called Doing Hybrid Right. And in it, 215 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:41.470 I said, look, let's be very cautious about thinking that 216 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:46.370 this is all about flexibility around place, we've also got 217 00:12:46.409 --> 00:12:48.710 to realize that there's a whole bunch of people who 218 00:12:48.730 --> 00:12:52.889 have no flexibility about where they work. And for that group, 219 00:12:52.909 --> 00:12:55.649 we've got to speak about when people work. So we 220 00:12:55.669 --> 00:12:58.759 have to think about time and place. And that, for me, 221 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.700 was one of the first contributions, I think, theoretically, I 222 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.600 made to this conversation that's going on, which is to 223 00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:10.700 say it's about time as well as place. I have 224 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:14.100 to say I'm pretty disappointed that two years in, most 225 00:13:14.139 --> 00:13:17.360 CEOs are still talking about place. They're still saying, should 226 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:19.360 we be in the office or should we be at home? 227 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.379 And honestly, Ron, I don't think that's the question they 228 00:13:22.419 --> 00:13:24.409 should be asking. The question they should be asking is, 229 00:13:24.690 --> 00:13:27.649 how do we help people be more productive and more creative? 230 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:31.470 Absolutely. I think that if you focus on what are 231 00:13:31.509 --> 00:13:34.990 we trying to accomplish, what are our goals? You know, 232 00:13:35.029 --> 00:13:38.500 this came up for me a couple of months ago. 233 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:42.039 when an organization that I served on was serving on 234 00:13:42.090 --> 00:13:47.490 their board like companies, you know, they went all, you know, zoom, 235 00:13:47.690 --> 00:13:49.789 you know, everything was zoom. We couldn't come in. There 236 00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:53.509 were lots of issues about, you know, safety in their space. 237 00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:57.450 And then, you know, the, the, then the issue came up, okay, 238 00:13:57.570 --> 00:14:01.360 as things open up again, what should we do? And 239 00:14:02.669 --> 00:14:05.460 my response was, well, it depends what we are, what 240 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.970 we're doing. I said, and you've talked about this too, 241 00:14:09.029 --> 00:14:11.429 in terms of what is the task we're trying to accomplish? 242 00:14:11.529 --> 00:14:16.049 And there are certain tasks that people are realizing that 243 00:14:17.129 --> 00:14:20.539 they can be done virtually. Other tasks, different kinds of 244 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.840 tasks are better done face-to-face. But in fact, some other 245 00:14:24.899 --> 00:14:30.320 tasks can be even more productive and more efficient virtually 246 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.559 or done from home, you know, when they require focus 247 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:38.590 and concentration and lack of distractions so talk about that 248 00:14:38.610 --> 00:14:41.710 in terms of place and flexibility well. 249 00:14:41.830 --> 00:14:44.629 Well thanks what I mean one of the when I 250 00:14:44.830 --> 00:14:49.009 when I wrote uh the book redesigning work I had 251 00:14:49.049 --> 00:14:51.909 to decide where to start you know when you write 252 00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:53.929 a book you always have to think about where do 253 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.039 you start and and at that stage and still now 254 00:14:57.460 --> 00:14:59.840 people were starting by asking the question what do people 255 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:04.279 want And I never thought that was the opening question. 256 00:15:04.539 --> 00:15:06.480 And it certainly isn't the opening question in the book. 257 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:09.220 For me, the opening question in the book is, what 258 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.159 is it that you do? And so if you're looking 259 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:13.980 at a job or if you're doing, if our listeners 260 00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:16.899 are doing a job where being focused is very important. 261 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.659 I have a job that's about focus. I basically am 262 00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:23.080 a writer. And so for me, the most important thing 263 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:25.639 is not place. It doesn't really matter where I write. 264 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.679 It's time. I must be undisturbed. 265 00:15:28.779 --> 00:15:31.340 I need at least, you know, three minutes, three hours 266 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:36.659 of undisturbed time every single day to be productive. So 267 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:41.360 that's very important. But for some people, it's all about collaboration. 268 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.940 You know, they've got to be talking to other people 269 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:47.129 and they can do that either, you know, on Zoom 270 00:15:47.269 --> 00:15:50.330 or they can do it asynchronously. They don't always have 271 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.049 to be connected. And then others still really want to 272 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:56.090 be face to face. You know, they have jobs where, 273 00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:59.830 it's really important that they've got

somebody else in the 274 00:15:59.870 --> 00:16:02.909 office that they can talk to. And really understanding those 275 00:16:03.009 --> 00:16:05.450 different types of jobs, I think is going to be crucial. 276 00:16:05.889 --> 00:16:06.149 Yeah. 277 00:16:06.669 --> 00:16:10.049 Yeah. I think too, that when I was engaged in 278 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:12.730 this previous conversation too, about what is it we want 279 00:16:12.769 --> 00:16:17.200 to do? My conclusion was, well, when we as a 280 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.960 group need to work through a complex problem, you know, 281 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:24.480 that requires a lot of collaboration, a lot of, you know, 282 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:29.789 back and forth conversations, probably better face to face. But 283 00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:37.269 there were many situations when they were fairly routine meetings, 284 00:16:37.309 --> 00:16:38.870 when we just had to go through things and we 285 00:16:38.909 --> 00:16:41.850 had to vote on things and make decisions about things. 286 00:16:42.009 --> 00:16:44.990 We were board members, so a lot of things were 287 00:16:45.009 --> 00:16:47.909 done by staff, so we were just approving things. It 288 00:16:47.970 --> 00:16:53.269 was really convenient to do that via Zoom, because especially 289 00:16:53.809 --> 00:16:57.559 as you go through the winter, you know, there's their 290 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:01.549 weather issues, their commuting issues. And in a way, this 291 00:17:01.610 --> 00:17:06.390 makes things more, well, more inclusive to if someone, you know, 292 00:17:06.430 --> 00:17:10.609 has a sudden situation, and they can't get there, you 293 00:17:10.630 --> 00:17:14.480 have that opportunity to have a hybrid, you know, conversation 294 00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:16.259 that is quite effective. 295 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.740 So, but one word of warning on that. 296 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.299 Yeah. 297 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:25.150 Just to just to remind us that the number of 298 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.240 meetings that we've were having has gone up by 50%. 299 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:33.769 So don't always, you know, don't always press the zoom 300 00:17:33.809 --> 00:17:35.809 button when in fact you could just send an email 301 00:17:36.329 --> 00:17:38.670 or not talk to anyone at all. So we are, 302 00:17:38.809 --> 00:17:42.019 it's becoming the default way of working is, is actually 303 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:46.480 having these sort of meetings. And I'm very much worried 304 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.940 about that and concerned that we do need to ask ourselves, 305 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.150 do I have to talk to this person? on a 306 00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:56.910 Zoom or on a Microsoft platform? Or could I just 307 00:17:56.950 --> 00:17:59.230 send them an email or could I speak to them 308 00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:02.710 on the telephone or not do anything at all? Right, right. 309 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:06.019 Yeah, I think that certainly there's a term that come up, 310 00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:10.720 Zoom fatigue, right? And I think that's a reality. So 311 00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:16.039 we're going to take a quick break from Zoom right now. 312 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.079 We just need to take a break, but it's a 313 00:18:18.099 --> 00:18:21.740 short break. So folks, we'll be talking much more with 314 00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:28.059 Linda Gratton, so don't go anywhere. Welcome back, folks. We're 315 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:30.980 talking today with Linda Gratton about the changing design of 316 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:35.099 the workplace as we emerge from the pandemic. Linda is 317 00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:37.880 the author of 10 books, including the most recently published 318 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:41.940 redesigning work. And her 10 books have sold over a 319 00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:45.750 million copies and been translated into more than 15 languages. 320 00:18:46.490 --> 00:18:48.869 So before the break, we were talking to Linda about 321 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.539 number of issues about work and one of the things 322 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.680 that I wanted to talk to her about is some 323 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:59.039 of the the obstacles about redesigning work is and some 324 00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:02.109 you know with with validity is the perception of fairness 325 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.509 about you know who gets to work from home who 326 00:19:04.549 --> 00:19:07.410 gets to work virtually who doesn't and how do you 327 00:19:07.650 --> 00:19:11.150 address in consulting with companies how do you how do 328 00:19:11.210 --> 00:19:13.170 you talk about addressing this issue. 329 00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:17.390 Well I think that fairness is a really important question 330 00:19:17.450 --> 00:19:20.269 Ron because what we know is that if we feel 331 00:19:20.309 --> 00:19:25.039 that we've been treated unfairly, then it affects our feeling 332 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:28.539 of general happiness. It affects how engaged we are with 333 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.880 our organization. And importantly, it affects our relationships with each other. 334 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.819 And so one of the counsels that I've made when 335 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.880 I've been advising companies about how they think about hybrid 336 00:19:41.380 --> 00:19:43.440 is to put fairness right. 337 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:43.740 At the center. 338 00:19:43.779 --> 00:19:46.839 And in fact, you'll see in the book, Redesigning Work, 339 00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:49.950 which by the way, Ron, you can also download I'm 340 00:19:50.069 --> 00:19:54.880 as an audio book with me reading it. First time 341 00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:57.079 I've ever read one of my books. I have to 342 00:19:57.099 --> 00:20:00.359 tell you, the last time. It's a very, very time 343 00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:04.660 consuming process. Anyway, I really, I think I've got a 344 00:20:04.680 -->

00:20:09.839 whole chapter on fairness. And here's the point that There's 345 00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:13.539 a great deal of variety between jobs. Fairness isn't the 346 00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:16.500 same as saying everybody's equal. We can't say that because 347 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:17.460 jobs aren't equal. 348 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.480 We have to acknowledge that. But what we can. 349 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:23.500 Do is to treat people in a fair way. How 350 00:20:23.539 --> 00:20:25.960 do we do that? Well, there's a few things that 351 00:20:26.019 --> 00:20:29.460 we can think about. The first is that we can 352 00:20:29.779 --> 00:20:33.049 acknowledge that there are differences and see whether something works 353 00:20:33.089 --> 00:20:35.960 for one type of job that doesn't for another. So 354 00:20:36.019 --> 00:20:39.130 for example, it may be that one of the jobs 355 00:20:39.289 --> 00:20:41.950 or a group of jobs in your company, there can 356 00:20:41.990 --> 00:20:46.009 be no, people can't work from home. But perhaps what 357 00:20:46.049 --> 00:20:49.289 you could do is to give them more flexibility around 358 00:20:49.329 --> 00:20:53.049 the time they work, think more creatively about the scheduling. 359 00:20:53.529 --> 00:20:56.539 So for example, we've been looking at companies where they've 360 00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:02.259 adopted a four-day working week, companies where they're enabling people 361 00:21:02.619 --> 00:21:06.420 to be much more flexible about when they work. So 362 00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:10.980 that's one important aspect. The second important aspect of fairness, 363 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.779 and actually the most crucial, is the way that people, 364 00:21:16.339 --> 00:21:18.579 the way that your manager talks to you about it, 365 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:23.170 you know, what's called interactional justice, that you feel that 366 00:21:23.190 --> 00:21:26.890 you've been treated in a fair way and in a 367 00:21:26.950 --> 00:21:30.950 good way. So, so, so, the outcome is important, but 368 00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:33.920 also the way that you're treated. And so one of 369 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:38.059 the things that we're realizing about the impact of the 370 00:21:38.099 --> 00:21:42.380 pandemic is that the manager, your manager, some of you 371 00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:47.000 may be managers yourself, or leaders yourself, plays such a 372 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:51.900 crucial role in supporting people, listening to them, and helping 373 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.500 them work in a way that they believe is fair 374 00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:59.440 with regard to others. And so this this capacity of 375 00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:03.160 the manager to be empathic and to listen to people 376 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.039 has come up as one of the most important aspects 377 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:12.579 of where the people have felt they've been treated fairly. Right. Yeah. 378 00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:14.519

I had a little bit of experience to this when, 379 00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:17.140 when I was, you know, a manager in the early 380 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:22.029 nineties and it, it, it wasn't, it was an interesting lesson. 381 00:22:22.130 --> 00:22:25.309 I mean, so I over, I was a supervising group of, 382 00:22:25.490 --> 00:22:30.880 of reporters and, And it just was that time in 383 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:36.430 our generation cycle when a lot of my female reporters 384 00:22:36.529 --> 00:22:42.309 were having children. And so I tried to work out 385 00:22:42.410 --> 00:22:46.329 flexible work schedules, again, focusing on what are the articles, 386 00:22:46.809 --> 00:22:51.410 what's our goals here, what's the focus on productivity here 387 00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:55.869 and what the expectations are. And so I worked out 388 00:22:55.890 --> 00:22:59.789 a flexible work schedule for a number of them. And 389 00:23:01.349 --> 00:23:03.470 my error, though, was that I was trying to do 390 00:23:03.529 --> 00:23:08.380 this alone as a manager, supervisor. And so what happened 391 00:23:08.420 --> 00:23:14.740 was after several months of successfully doing this, it was 392 00:23:14.779 --> 00:23:17.799 shut down because it was perceived as unfair to other 393 00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:21.279 employees who had to work and do their writing from 394 00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:26.309 the office. So it was successful, but I think the 395 00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:29.009 mistake was that it needs to be, there needs to 396 00:23:29.049 --> 00:23:32.589 be a broader discussion about this, you know, across the organization. 397 00:23:32.849 --> 00:23:33.130 Yes. 398 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:35.779 And actually, yeah, one of the things that we're doing, 399 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:39.640 you mentioned earlier that I founded and now run an 400 00:23:39.700 --> 00:23:42.940 advisory company called HSM that works all over the world, actually. 401 00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:46.400 But part of what we're doing at the moment is 402 00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:51.369 is to engage employees in conversations about what it is 403 00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:54.769 they want, what they believe to be fair, and actually 404 00:23:55.130 --> 00:23:59.059 to be upfront about some of the difficulties that they face. 405 00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:02.299 And of course, technology allows you to do that. 406 00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:07.539 Sometimes, with great large numbers of people, we've been running 407 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.079 these jams, as we call them, where for 36 hours, 408 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.839 people have a chance to talk to each other. 409 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:17.369 With up to 50,000 people in some companies. Yeah. 410 00:24:17.430 --> 00:24:20.700 So there's, there's all sorts of, you know, very exciting 411 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.640 ways at the moment to get people to talk about 412 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:26.960 what is it I want? What am I, what do 413 00:24:27.019 -->

00:24:30.259 I care for about? What am I prepared to give up? 414 00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:33.000 What are the red lines? So, so one of the 415 00:24:33.019 --> 00:24:35.869 questions we always ask of senior executives is what are 416 00:24:35.890 --> 00:24:37.710 your red lines? I mean, what are the things that, 417 00:24:38.190 --> 00:24:41.849 you know, when we redesign work, you cannot get past 418 00:24:41.869 --> 00:24:44.170 this line. So one CEO said to us from a 419 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:49.460 company called Sage, that's a, that designs, you know, it's 420 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:51.859 a B2B design of complex programs. 421 00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:55.519 They said that the CEO said, well, the. 422 00:24:55.460 --> 00:24:59.339 Red line is, it's got to be something that makes 423 00:24:59.420 --> 00:25:03.900 customers happier. And if we redesign, you know, work in 424 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.250 a way that dissatisfies our customers, we have to pull 425 00:25:08.269 --> 00:25:10.450 it out. That for me is the red line. It's 426 00:25:10.549 --> 00:25:14.720 got to improve our customer experience. And I thought that 427 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:17.079 was great that he said that because he just said, 428 00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:20.599 you know, you can play around and we can come 429 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.079 up with some great ideas. And I will always say 430 00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:27.069 yes to them unless I feel or unless it's shown 431 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:29.950 to reduce the customer experience, in which case it's not 432 00:25:29.990 --> 00:25:32.269 going to happen. It's not going to fly. So those 433 00:25:32.329 --> 00:25:35.900 sorts of red lines, another company, another CEO said to us, 434 00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:39.880 you know, for us working cooperatively, working as a team 435 00:25:40.019 --> 00:25:42.920 is absolutely part of our culture. So when we think 436 00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:46.640 now about redesigning work, it has to build stronger teams. 437 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:50.289 We're not prepared to redesign work in a way that 438 00:25:50.609 --> 00:25:55.170 creates more atomistic working practices where people don't see each other, 439 00:25:55.190 --> 00:26:01.089 aren't related, where relationships start to atrophy. So working out 440 00:26:01.190 --> 00:26:04.380 what's really important for you, what those red lines are, 441 00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:07.619 what your principles are, I think it's a very important 442 00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:09.500 conversation to be having. 443 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.880 Right, right. Another question I had for you was just 444 00:26:12.940 --> 00:26:18.470 in terms of doing hybrid work well, is that it requires, 445 00:26:19.390 --> 00:26:22.710 I think, some training and some education and some discussion 446 00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:26.490 about how to do it. You know, I recall when 447 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:31.099 I was doing some work for the university in New 448 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:36.920 York City, the city university, this was, I guess, around 2011. 449 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:42.019 So it's a good ways earlier. But they were just 450 00:26:42.099 --> 00:26:49.210 starting to do online learning, you know, hybrid learning. And 451 00:26:49.230 --> 00:26:52.750 at least initially there, I think, again, they focus on, well, 452 00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:57.430 why are we doing this? It wasn't just as an 453 00:26:57.509 --> 00:27:01.910 economic measure to save money, but it was, they wanted 454 00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:08.299 to do initially to basically experiment with students who, you know, 455 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.000 were just a few credits short And how would they 456 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.539 get them to just finish their degrees, you know, given 457 00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.480 the complexity and difficulty of family life and children and 458 00:27:17.529 --> 00:27:21.369 so forth. And so the advisors, but they required the 459 00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:23.390 faculty who were doing it to be trained in how 460 00:27:23.430 --> 00:27:26.849 to do it well. And I think that that's an 461 00:27:26.869 --> 00:27:30.849 issue too with, I think, whether it's in university or 462 00:27:30.890 --> 00:27:33.650 classes or whether it's at work is how do people 463 00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:36.819 do this well, as opposed to just slapping things online, 464 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:37.579 you know? 465 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:39.299 Yeah, I think that's right. 466 00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:43.470 And And actually, I wrote two Harvard Business Review articles 467 00:27:43.549 --> 00:27:46.230 about this. The first one was about doing hybrid right. 468 00:27:46.269 --> 00:27:48.450 And the second one, which I wrote with Diana Gerson, 469 00:27:49.029 --> 00:27:52.670 who just recently stepped down from IBM, but is now 470 00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:58.029 an assistant professor at Harvard Business School, about managers and 471 00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:00.369 about the training of managers. And what we said is 472 00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:05.329 that it's not just training managers, but it's also taking... 473 00:28:05.730 --> 00:28:08.869 taking stuff off their plate, because one of the things that, 474 00:28:09.049 --> 00:28:12.319 that Dan is a practicing leader saw at IBM is 475 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.170 that we were just asking managers to do more and 476 00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:18.279 more stuff. And as a consequence, and then at the 477 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:20.759 very end during hybrid, we also said, Oh, by the way, 478 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.579 can you talk to everybody on a one-to-one basis? And 479 00:28:23.619 --> 00:28:26.279 can you understand them? And can you, what can you 480 00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:29.299 be empathic? And quite a lot of managers said, Hey, 481 00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:30.380 hang on, stop. 482 00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:33.819 I have too much to do. I can't, I can't 483 00:28:33.900 -->

00:28:34.720 possibly do this. 484 00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:40.400 So it's also about redesigning work and taking work off 485 00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:43.410 their plate so that you can actually, managers can really 486 00:28:43.470 --> 00:28:46.130 focus on what's the most important thing for me to 487 00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:49.809 do right now. And they have two jobs, part of 488 00:28:50.150 --> 00:28:53.250 some of which is about managing people and part is 489 00:28:53.369 --> 00:28:56.690 about managing the work itself. And actually one of the 490 00:28:56.730 --> 00:29:02.269 companies that we talked about, the Australian telecoms company, Telstra, 491 00:29:02.789 --> 00:29:07.029 they actually separate those jobs out completely. So they have 492 00:29:07.490 --> 00:29:11.369 a manager of people who's there to be empathic, to listen, 493 00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:13.890 to help people with their careers, but also a manager 494 00:29:13.930 --> 00:29:17.539 of work who does the workflow, the design of work, 495 00:29:17.579 --> 00:29:20.640 the design of projects. And that strikes me as being 496 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:24.829 a really interesting way forward, because one thing that we've 497 00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:30.299 learned is that that the manager skills to manage hybrid 498 00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:35.190 are much more sophisticated than normal managerial skills. For example, 499 00:29:35.769 --> 00:29:39.609 they have to learn how to make team agreements, which 500 00:29:39.750 --> 00:29:41.950 lots of managers, they have to learn about how to 501 00:29:41.990 --> 00:29:44.880 schedule work. They have to learn about how to work, 502 00:29:45.259 --> 00:29:48.700 how to run virtual teams. And these are things that, 503 00:29:48.940 --> 00:29:52.359 and virtual projects, these are things that are very skillful. 504 00:29:53.019 --> 00:29:55.920 So we have to upskill our managers to be able 505 00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:57.819 to do that. Right, right. 506 00:29:58.539 --> 00:30:02.789 Absolutely, yeah. you know, in, in my early experience, I mentioned, 507 00:30:02.809 --> 00:30:06.299 you know, I was just in the beginning aspect of, 508 00:30:06.490 --> 00:30:10.509 of this flexible work scheduling. And as you were talking, 509 00:30:10.549 --> 00:30:13.269 I was recalling myself. Yeah, it was a lot more 510 00:30:13.309 --> 00:30:16.269 work for me. You know, I felt, I felt good 511 00:30:16.309 --> 00:30:18.910 about it. I felt it really, it helped my team 512 00:30:19.589 --> 00:30:24.430 maintain its productivity, you know, and there was no diminishment 513 00:30:24.490 --> 00:30:27.089 in that, but it was, it was more work, you know, it's, 514 00:30:27.930 --> 00:30:33.410 did require paying attention a lot more. So do you 515 00:30:33.430 --> 00:30:36.660 think that, you know, that obviously there are lots of 516 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:43.000 potential benefits for this kind of redesign. And yet there's obviously, 517 00:30:43.019 --> 00:30:44.599 you know, as we go forward, there's always sort of 518 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:48.509 back and dialectical back and forth. So do you think 519 00:30:48.529 --> 00:30:51.490 there's going to be any kind of pushback as we 520 00:30:51.529 --> 00:30:54.430 go forward, then people are going to, as things, you know, 521 00:30:55.150 --> 00:30:58.180 get back to normal, whatever that normal is, that people 522 00:30:58.259 --> 00:31:01.339 are going to, there's going to be some reversion to like, okay, 523 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.839 things are that, no, no, you know, this was a 524 00:31:03.859 --> 00:31:06.180 good experiment. Let's go back to the office. 525 00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:09.130 Well, I think, you know, that's, well, I think we're 526 00:31:09.170 --> 00:31:10.730 watching that with a great deal of interest. 527 00:31:11.130 --> 00:31:13.670 One of the analogies I made in the book, redesigning 528 00:31:13.710 --> 00:31:18.150 work is freeze, unfreeze, refreeze in the sense that before 529 00:31:18.390 --> 00:31:20.880 the pandemic companies were frozen, I don't mean by that 530 00:31:20.910 --> 00:31:25.000 they were cold or, or frigid, but rather They were 531 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.359 set in their ways, and rightly so. I think a 532 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.099 dose of bureaucracy is a good thing. It means everybody 533 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:34.900 knows what they're supposed to do. But there's been a 534 00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:41.509 real unfreeze. People questioned assumptions. They learned new habits. They said, well, 535 00:31:41.869 --> 00:31:44.049 why am I going into the office? Why do I commute? 536 00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:47.069 I like to spend time with my family. I've learned 537 00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:50.150 how to use new technologies and so on. So we're 538 00:31:50.170 --> 00:31:53.630 now in the refreeze stage where an organization is coming 539 00:31:53.710 --> 00:31:57.119 back together and trying to work out, well, what is 540 00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.940 it now? I don't think there's any chance of going 541 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.420 back to the unfreeze. It would be like saying to 542 00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:05.559 a snowflake, you've melted, now go back to being a 543 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:06.440 snowflake again. 544 00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:10.460 I mean, it's a different structure. So I think the idea. 545 00:32:10.220 --> 00:32:13.859 That somehow you can just go back to where you were, 546 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.849 it's not that the river has moved on. 547 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:18.309 It's not going to happen. 548 00:32:18.890 --> 00:32:22.720 So I think The best leaders are leaders, the ones 549 00:32:22.779 --> 00:32:26.420 I admire right now, are basically saying, we don't know 550 00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:30.400 what the end result is, but we want to experiment. 551 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:35.849 And they're moving into an experimental mindset and really trying 552 00:32:35.930 -->

00:32:36.390 things out. 553 00:32:36.430 --> 00:32:40.109 For example, I said earlier, in Europe right now, a 554 00:32:40.130 --> 00:32:43.630 whole bunch of companies are working with scholars at Oxford 555 00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:45.730 and Cambridge University to say. 556 00:32:46.210 --> 00:32:48.130 Well, would the four day week work? 557 00:32:48.210 --> 00:32:51.069 I mean, you know, let's find out whether it works 558 00:32:51.130 --> 00:32:54.529 or not and experimenting with that. Others are saying, well, 559 00:32:54.630 --> 00:32:59.559 you know, perhaps we could work from home or work 560 00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:03.079 from another country for, you know, a period of time. 561 00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:05.039 So these are all experiments. 562 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:07.859 And I don't think we're anywhere near the end. 563 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:09.720 I've been thinking about this. 564 00:33:10.869 --> 00:33:14.789 It's sort of, you know, series two, episode three, and 565 00:33:15.369 --> 00:33:18.329 there might be another series and they're sure as hell 566 00:33:18.349 --> 00:33:22.789 going to be more, more episodes. And so to think that, well, 567 00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:25.970 this is all finished now. It's just, it's not, it's 568 00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:29.430 not the case. There's a lot of work. We've still 569 00:33:29.450 --> 00:33:31.309 got a lot to learn. We've still got a lot 570 00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:35.789 to experiment with. You know, the labor market's changing, you know, 571 00:33:35.829 --> 00:33:37.880 there was a war for talent, but we've now moving 572 00:33:37.910 --> 00:33:40.589 into a period probably of high inflation and And that's 573 00:33:40.630 --> 00:33:43.450 going to change the dynamics again. So there's a lot 574 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.259 in play at the moment. And I think the smartest 575 00:33:46.339 --> 00:33:53.039 leaders are those who say, we want an overall purpose, 576 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:55.799 but at the same time, we need to experiment and 577 00:33:55.819 --> 00:33:58.059 we need to learn what work could be. This is 578 00:33:58.099 --> 00:33:59.980 a great time to redesign work. 579 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:06.490 Yeah, yeah. Now, do you sense that there are differences 580 00:34:07.250 --> 00:34:12.150 generationally or is it now? Is it it does it 581 00:34:12.210 --> 00:34:15.059 cross generations or does it affect people differently at different 582 00:34:15.099 --> 00:34:16.000 points in their career? 583 00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:19.940 Well, you know, I think that there are I think 584 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.820 the biggest the biggest difference is not so much generations, 585 00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:28.210 but life stages. So, you know, if you're the group, 586 00:34:28.269 --> 00:34:32.710 I think where that we're most concerned about are people 587 00:34:32.809 --> 00:34:37.710 who joined the workforce during the pandemic, you know, people 588 00:34:37.730 --> 00:34:40.690 in their 20s. I talked to a CEO. In fact, 589 00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:42.869 I was teaching a CEO this afternoon. I taught a 590 00:34:42.889 --> 00:34:44.769 class at London Business School this afternoon. 591 00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:51.190 And he was saying, we're having a much higher. 592 00:34:50.889 --> 00:34:52.530 Turnover of that group. 593 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:56.079 And we think it's because they came in just working 594 00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:59.079 with Zoom on each other, with each other. They don't 595 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.619 really understand what the company is. They haven't made any 596 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:03.559 big friendships. 597 00:35:03.619 --> 00:35:04.579 Do you remember that? 598 00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:07.820 That, you know, you stay at a company because you've 599 00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:08.880 got a friend at work. 600 00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:09.340 Right. 601 00:35:09.619 --> 00:35:11.480 And so they haven't really built friendships. 602 00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:14.360 So I think the group that we need to focus 603 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:18.550 on the most are young people now. And that's because 604 00:35:19.170 --> 00:35:21.849 when you think back to your own formative years, and 605 00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:25.630 I certainly do this with myself, those first couple of 606 00:35:25.690 --> 00:35:28.820 years in work are really important. It's when you make friends, 607 00:35:28.909 --> 00:35:31.820 it's when you understand what work's about. So for people 608 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:35.420 who've done that during the pandemic, it's been a different experience. 609 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.980 So I think that that group is a group where 610 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.219 certainly what we're seeing, and it'd be interesting to see 611 00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:45.670 if your listeners are feeling the same, people want to 612 00:35:45.710 --> 00:35:50.570 get back into the office. They're often living in small apartments, 613 00:35:50.650 --> 00:35:55.800 maybe shared apartments. They want to be around their colleagues. 614 00:35:56.360 --> 00:36:00.309 It's the older ones often the more experienced ones who 615 00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:02.510 are happy working from home because they know how to 616 00:36:02.550 --> 00:36:05.110 do it. They've made all their friendships. They can phone 617 00:36:05.170 --> 00:36:07.369 up and say, you know, Ron, could you tell me 618 00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:11.460 about X? And they know who Ron is. So there 619 00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:15.000 are differences. I wouldn't say they're generational differences, Ron, but 620 00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:19.940 I would say they're differences in life stage. Right. And 621 00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:23.280 of course, what we've also learned is the over 60s 622 00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:27.739 haven't come back to work. Very disappointing because One of 623 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:29.780 the things we've said in the 100-year life is you 624 00:36:29.800 -->

00:36:32.960 need to be prepared to work into your 70s. And 625 00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:38.099 lots of people haven't come back. The two groups who 626 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.860 haven't come back to full-time work are women with young 627 00:36:40.940 --> 00:36:45.590 children and people over the age of 60. And I 628 00:36:45.630 --> 00:36:47.849 think that's a shame. I think those of you who 629 00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:50.110 are listening over the age of 60, get. 630 00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:50.769 Back to work. 631 00:36:51.190 --> 00:36:55.289 Right. Yes, so that's something I'd like to follow up 632 00:36:55.309 --> 00:36:58.230 with a bit more, but we're coming up to another break. 633 00:36:59.050 --> 00:37:01.110 So we're going to take another short break, but when 634 00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:03.309 we come back, we're going to pick up much more 635 00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:11.590 with Linda Gratton. Welcome back, folks. We're talking with Linda Gratton, 636 00:37:11.650 --> 00:37:16.349 the author of Redesigning Work and a well-renowned expert in 637 00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:19.769 the future of work. So before the break, we were 638 00:37:19.829 --> 00:37:24.070 talking a little bit about not too much generationally, but 639 00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:28.909 how people respond to the redesigned workplace depending upon their 640 00:37:28.969 --> 00:37:31.590 stages in life. And I thought that was a really 641 00:37:31.610 --> 00:37:37.030 interesting observation. And I think that that's something worth talking 642 00:37:37.050 --> 00:37:40.610 a bit more about. And especially since our show is 643 00:37:40.610 --> 00:37:46.480 45 forward, the issue of people over 60 or older 644 00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:51.420 workers not returning to work. So talk to me about that, Linda, 645 00:37:51.460 --> 00:37:54.760 about Are there ways, are there incentives that employers can 646 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.900 get people back to work? And also just, you know, 647 00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:00.300 self-incentives for why you should do that, why you should 648 00:38:00.340 --> 00:38:05.030 think about it. And maybe, you know, you should, you know, again, 649 00:38:05.070 --> 00:38:06.789 if you don't think about it as well, I'm returning 650 00:38:06.829 --> 00:38:09.989 to the office, but am I redesigning my work, as 651 00:38:10.030 --> 00:38:10.449 you put it? 652 00:38:10.869 --> 00:38:11.190 Yeah. 653 00:38:11.650 --> 00:38:16.800 Well, I think, you know, the best way for companies 654 00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.929 to entice the over 60s back to work is to 655 00:38:19.969 --> 00:38:22.389 make work more flexible. And by the way, that's true 656 00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:25.150 for every age group. Actually, the person, the group who 657 00:38:25.190 --> 00:38:28.679 needs flexibility the most are the people with young kids. 658 00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:30.780 That's the real crunch. 659 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.960 Those are the real crunch years, as you know,

Ron, 660 00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:35.239 you know, when you're bringing up young children and anyone 661 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.400 who's seeing that themselves or seen it with, in my case, 662 00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:42.530 I see it with my children and my grandchildren, just 663 00:38:42.590 --> 00:38:43.869 what a crunch that's been. 664 00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:45.929 But by the time. 665 00:38:45.769 --> 00:38:51.050 People are in their sixties, I think that flexibility is 666 00:38:51.289 --> 00:38:53.469 really important because many of us want to continue to 667 00:38:53.530 --> 00:38:55.929 make a contribution at work. I know some of you 668 00:38:55.969 --> 00:39:00.420 might be thinking, well, I'm a blocker. Don't think that way. 669 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:05.269 The evidence is that actually companies need more people over 60, 670 00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:05.739 not less. 671 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:08.090 They add new ideas. They add wisdom. 672 00:39:08.550 --> 00:39:12.650 They're often great mentors and coaches. I noticed for myself, Ron, 673 00:39:12.690 --> 00:39:16.300 that Even today, I was coaching one of my colleagues 674 00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:19.210 at London Business School, one of the young professors, and saying, 675 00:39:19.489 --> 00:39:23.650 you know, I'll happily share all of my ideas about 676 00:39:23.690 --> 00:39:25.769 this with you. I would never have done that 20 677 00:39:25.769 --> 00:39:28.849 years ago. I was far too competitive. And so I 678 00:39:29.329 --> 00:39:32.199 think that we you know, as you age, we need 679 00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:36.840 to acknowledge that there are things about us that's incredibly 680 00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:40.559 beneficial to companies that we can give and that companies 681 00:39:40.659 --> 00:39:43.820 also need to acknowledge that people want to give, but 682 00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:46.099 they might just not want to do it in the 683 00:39:46.139 --> 00:39:50.489 way that they always did. So you know, working four 684 00:39:50.510 --> 00:39:55.329 days a week, let's say, or taking sabbaticals or work 685 00:39:56.429 --> 00:39:58.909 or job share, which is something I love. I love 686 00:39:58.949 --> 00:40:00.199 the idea of job share. 687 00:40:00.019 --> 00:40:02.500 Where two of you do it rather than one. 688 00:40:02.539 --> 00:40:05.380 So find somebody that you could job share with and 689 00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:07.380 go to a company and say, look, here we are. 690 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.179 We can job share. Would you like us? 691 00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:13.280 And in this tight labor market, I think you'll be 692 00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:16.159 surprised how many companies say, yeah, I'm interested. 693 00:40:16.179 --> 00:40:16.679 Yeah. 694 00:40:17.389 --> 00:40:20.739 Yeah, I think I agree totally with you about breaking 695 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:25.000 the stereotypes. And, you know, I think that's really important. 696 00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:31.219 I think

there's a stereotype about, you know, seniors, however 697 00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:34.320 you define that word, using technology. It's like, well, people 698 00:40:34.380 --> 00:40:37.440 can't use technology. And I look at them and say, well, 699 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:42.590 I'm a senior. You know, it's not about, it is 700 00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:45.530 not about your age. It's about, you know, willingness to 701 00:40:45.570 --> 00:40:51.619 do things and just as an aside, a series that 702 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.599 I watched years ago, I don't know if it shows 703 00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:56.940 up again, but it was called New Tricks. And I 704 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:58.570 just love this show. I think it came out of 705 00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:02.309 the UK. It was a show about retired detectives who 706 00:41:02.329 --> 00:41:08.889 were basically sitting around and they were rehired to solve 707 00:41:08.949 --> 00:41:11.519 cold cases that no one wanted to do. And they 708 00:41:11.539 --> 00:41:15.250 came in because There's nothing to lose. And they tried 709 00:41:15.329 --> 00:41:17.449 new ideas and new ways of solving cases. And they 710 00:41:17.489 --> 00:41:20.570 often were successful. But so that I love the idea 711 00:41:20.590 --> 00:41:23.070 of new tricks and the fact that, you know, older 712 00:41:23.110 --> 00:41:27.650 employees can can think creatively when they feel in some cases, well, 713 00:41:27.969 --> 00:41:33.260 there's less risk. I can really try something. And so 714 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:35.300 I think that that part of the issue is I 715 00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.119 do think there are, you know, as we talked earlier about, 716 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:42.789 there is, you know, just a recognition that It's important 717 00:41:42.849 --> 00:41:47.429 to know and be trained about how to use technology well. 718 00:41:47.929 --> 00:41:50.070 But that doesn't apply just to older people. It applies 719 00:41:50.110 --> 00:41:50.690 to everybody. 720 00:41:52.789 --> 00:42:00.230 Absolutely. I really rise against generational stereotypes. And that's partly 721 00:42:00.289 --> 00:42:04.590 because they are stereotypes. You know, just because I'm 67, 722 00:42:04.590 --> 00:42:08.469 it doesn't mean I'm the same as everybody else who's 67. 723 00:42:08.469 --> 00:42:10.239 In everything I do, you know, I'm me. 724 00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:13.139 And I think that when we talk about each other, 725 00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:17.050 we just need to just realize that everybody is themselves. 726 00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:18.829 We're not all the same. 727 00:42:18.849 --> 00:42:19.469 Right. 728 00:42:20.050 --> 00:42:22.650 Just because we're of the same age, just because, and 729 00:42:22.710 --> 00:42:25.070 I would say the same about gender. We're not all 730 00:42:25.110 --> 00:42:27.139 the same just because we happen in my case to 731 00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:29.800 be a woman. So, so I think one needs to 732 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:32.920 be thoughtful about that and realize that people have different 733 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:34.559 needs and aspirations. Yeah. 734 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.510 I think one of the, um, the worries that we 735 00:42:37.550 --> 00:42:40.570 have sort of generally, and you've talked about this as well, 736 00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:43.590 is just in terms of redesigning work that one of 737 00:42:43.610 --> 00:42:46.179 the wild cards is sort of automation, which has been 738 00:42:47.030 --> 00:42:50.619 a different take on technology, but it has had an impact. 739 00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:56.659 And I think people do worry about being replaced and 740 00:42:57.019 --> 00:43:00.679 are they doing jobs that soon will be obsolescent? So 741 00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:03.619 talk to me a little bit about how you think 742 00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:06.099 about automation and the role of technology. 743 00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:10.670 Yeah, well, that's one of the three trends that I 744 00:43:10.710 --> 00:43:15.030 look at in detail. One is demography, particularly to do 745 00:43:15.070 --> 00:43:17.699 with what happens when everybody lives to 100. One is 746 00:43:17.739 --> 00:43:22.440 family structures, what happens when most women work. And then 747 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.539 the third is technology, which is what happens when robots 748 00:43:26.579 --> 00:43:30.320 and artificial intelligence machines, in other words, do more and 749 00:43:30.340 --> 00:43:34.849 more of our work. In general, that's a positive upbeat. 750 00:43:34.909 --> 00:43:39.219 It's not a negative. Because what machines do, tend to do, 751 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:41.420 is they tend to do the routine part of your job. 752 00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:45.920 The bit that's really not that interesting anyway. Machines don't 753 00:43:45.980 --> 00:43:49.219 do creative work. They're not empathic. You might think that 754 00:43:49.579 --> 00:43:51.519 when you're talking to a machine, it cares for you. 755 00:43:51.579 --> 00:43:54.099 It doesn't. It's a machine. It's got no empathy at all. 756 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:55.340 It's just a program. 757 00:43:56.610 --> 00:43:59.989 The only things that are empathic are other human beings. 758 00:44:00.489 --> 00:44:03.840 So there's so much that we can do as humans 759 00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:07.760 that machines can't do. But that requires us to write 760 00:44:07.820 --> 00:44:11.739 across our life, to upskill and reskill, you know, because 761 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:16.579 as machines do routine things, what we as humans need 762 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:18.840 to do is to do the more skillful things. And 763 00:44:18.889 --> 00:44:23.110 that might be being more skillfully cooperative or creative or 764 00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:28.530 being more skillfully empathic or being more skillfully listening. So those, 765 00:44:28.889 --> 00:44:32.590 we have to upskill ourselves. And part of the reason 766 00:44:32.650

--> 00:44:35.949 why I think it's so important that we use this 767 00:44:36.349 --> 00:44:40.070 time now to redesign work, to be more flexible, is 768 00:44:40.130 --> 00:44:44.550 it gives us more time to learn. Adult learning is 769 00:44:44.590 --> 00:44:47.050 going to be so important for us. And it's not 770 00:44:47.130 --> 00:44:50.739 just about learning a new language or learning to you know, 771 00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:55.300 to use a new technology, it's really importantly learning new 772 00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:59.670 social skills and learning, you know, new ways of making decisions, 773 00:44:59.750 --> 00:45:03.250 new ways of, of making judgments. And that's got to 774 00:45:03.289 --> 00:45:06.289 be something that all of us are able to embrace 775 00:45:06.329 --> 00:45:08.150 and invest in whatever age we are. 776 00:45:08.489 --> 00:45:08.769 Right. 777 00:45:09.630 --> 00:45:11.150 Uh, we don't have that much more time, but I 778 00:45:11.210 --> 00:45:14.369 do want to touch on your other topic that you've, 779 00:45:14.489 --> 00:45:17.210 you've covered quite in depth and perhaps we'll do a 780 00:45:17.230 --> 00:45:20.389 whole other show on this, but, um, And that is 781 00:45:20.429 --> 00:45:24.940 just the impact of longevity on work. So you touched 782 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:26.460 on this a little bit earlier, and there are different 783 00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:30.000 stages of life. But perhaps a couple more thoughts on 784 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:35.179 how the 100-year life has an impact on the way 785 00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:35.619 we work. 786 00:45:36.739 --> 00:45:42.530 Well, Andrew Scott is an economist. I'm a psychologist. 787 00:45:42.590 --> 00:45:45.369 And we wrote this book, 100-Year Life, which has been 788 00:45:46.090 --> 00:45:48.690 a really successful book. You know, it became the best-selling 789 00:45:48.730 --> 00:45:53.260 book in Japan. It's been translated into many languages. And 790 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:55.860 there's two things, looking back on it and thinking, well, 791 00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:58.599 what really came out of that book? Two things came out. 792 00:45:58.780 --> 00:46:02.780 Number one, the idea that we now have multi-stage lives. 793 00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:09.010 The idea that this, you know, three-stage life of full-time education, 794 00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:12.429 full-time work, full-time retirement isn't going to hold. We've got 795 00:46:12.449 --> 00:46:15.309 to be much more flexible. Second thing that came out 796 00:46:15.909 --> 00:46:19.380 is the importance of intangible assets, the idea that, you know, 797 00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:22.800 it's it is wise and good to save financially to 798 00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:26.099 save tangible assets. But honestly, the thing that really makes 799 00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:29.219 a difference to a long life is intangible assets, things 800 00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:33.389 like your health, things like the amount that you're able

to, 801 00:46:34.110 --> 00:46:37.590 to learn things like your friendships and your relationships, these 802 00:46:37.630 --> 00:46:41.769 are intangible things, things that money can't buy, and things 803 00:46:41.809 --> 00:46:46.360 that require you to make investments, you know, if I've 804 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:48.900 been trying over the last four years to be healthier. 805 00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:53.219 That takes an hour every day. Every day I try 806 00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:56.579 and walk 10,000 steps. I did today, but it takes 807 00:46:56.619 --> 00:46:59.480 me an hour to do that. So it's an investment. 808 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:03.039 So you have to really invest in yourself, in your health, 809 00:47:03.940 --> 00:47:08.639 in learning new things, invest in friendships. That's what really 810 00:47:08.699 --> 00:47:11.840 came out. Those two things came up for me most 811 00:47:11.980 --> 00:47:16.059 powerfully as relationships. Andrew Scott and I asked the simple question, 812 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:19.639 what happens when we all live to 100? Right, right. 813 00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:22.900 I think people are starting to catch on. I certainly, 814 00:47:23.980 --> 00:47:27.900 when I talk to financial advisors these days, and people, 815 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.599 they say people's worry is that they're going to outlive 816 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.860 their money. So they do. I think many advisors are 817 00:47:35.900 --> 00:47:38.760 now planning. When they set out a plan, they plan 818 00:47:38.780 --> 00:47:40.699 to 100. 819 00:47:40.699 --> 00:47:42.119 That's very wise to do that. 820 00:47:42.590 --> 00:47:46.170 And also, frankly, to try and plan to be still 821 00:47:46.369 --> 00:47:49.679 earning into your 70s. Right, right. 822 00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:51.559 That's another very good plan. 823 00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:52.860 Yeah, yeah. 824 00:47:54.820 --> 00:47:55.099 Wow. 825 00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:57.920 Well, I'm glad we, you know, and as I said, 826 00:47:57.980 --> 00:48:00.659 I think we could do a whole other show on just, 827 00:48:00.699 --> 00:48:05.250 you know, I remember reading a book years ago by 828 00:48:05.349 --> 00:48:07.570 a man named Robert Butler. I think he was called 829 00:48:07.590 --> 00:48:11.960 The Longevity Revolution. Yeah. you know, it's, we're there. It's 830 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:13.500 not coming. We're there. 831 00:48:13.780 --> 00:48:15.000 Right. Yeah. 832 00:48:15.139 --> 00:48:18.320 So, well, listen, Linda, you've been a terrific guest and 833 00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:20.860 I really appreciate these great insights. And I know there's 834 00:48:20.909 --> 00:48:23.820 much more to talk about, but before we end the show, 835 00:48:24.269 --> 00:48:26.989 perhaps you could just let people know if people want 836 00:48:27.010 --> 00:48:30.170 to get in touch with you or what's the best 837 00:48:30.190 --> 00:48:30.730 way to reach you? 838 00:48:30.750 --> 00:48:31.010 Yeah. 839 00:48:31.090 --> 00:48:37.849 Well, I have a wonderful website, www.lindagratton, L-Y-N-D-A, Gratton, G-R-A-T-T-O-N. 840 00:48:39.690 --> 00:48:43.889 And you'll find lots of resources, including a wonderful blueprint 841 00:48:43.929 --> 00:48:47.630 that you can download to help you think about redesigning work. 842 00:48:48.010 --> 00:48:49.829 And you'll see there's a form there to get in 843 00:48:49.869 --> 00:48:52.889 touch with me. So very happy for people to do that. 844 00:48:53.150 --> 00:48:56.289 But do take a look at that, at my website, 845 00:48:56.309 --> 00:48:58.239 because it does have a lot of resources in it. 846 00:48:58.489 --> 00:48:58.780 Yeah. 847 00:48:58.820 --> 00:49:00.699 And you've got, you've done a lot of, you know, 848 00:49:00.739 --> 00:49:05.940 very insightful articles and you've done some great presentations on YouTube, 849 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.380 which I've taken a look at as well. So. Folks 850 00:49:08.389 --> 00:49:17.429 should take a look at that as well. So lyndagraton.com, L-Y-N-D-A, G-R-A-T-T-O-N.com. 851 00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:18.409 That's it. 852 00:49:18.670 --> 00:49:23.440 Okay. All right. folks, again, if you missed my conversation 853 00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:25.900 today with Linda Gratton, you can listen to it as 854 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:30.980 a podcast on voiceamerica.com and just search for my show, 855 00:49:30.980 --> 00:49:35.730 45 Forward. You can find it on Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, 856 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:41.170 or go to my website, roelresources, that's R-O-E-L resources.com and 857 00:49:41.230 --> 00:49:44.690 click on the 45 forward tab and you can listen 858 00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:48.289 to Linda there as well. So be sure to join 859 00:49:48.309 --> 00:49:51.489 me next Monday, 12 noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern time. 860 00:49:51.889 --> 00:49:54.380 I know that's July 4th, but you can sit back 861 00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:57.519 and relax and listen to a special encore show with 862 00:49:58.059 --> 00:50:02.079 Carly Roman. She's a young dynamic gerontologist who talks about 863 00:50:02.139 --> 00:50:05.570 how you can create pragmatic programs that benefit older adults 864 00:50:05.590 --> 00:50:10.210 and and transform our age silos into enriching experiences for 865 00:50:10.269 --> 00:50:15.880 all ages. So until then, folks, keep moving forward, 45 forward.