บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ How You Can Help Transform America's Racial Karma | Dr. Larry Ward

will help me move energy that may be stuck somewhere 37 00:02:24.169 --> 00:02:25.289 in my body out. 38 00:02:26.210 --> 00:02:26.789 What do you like? 39 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:29.930 Through well what kind of music uh well i have 40 00:02:29.939 --> 00:02:35.449 a pretty wide pretty wide range of music i like 41 00:02:35.530 --> 00:02:38.050 and depending on the mood or what i'm feeling needs 42 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:43.129 to be processed uh michael jackson uh helps me a 43 00:02:43.169 --> 00:02:47.460 lot with some of his particular songs especially the one 44 00:02:47.509 --> 00:02:51.599 he that was sung at his memorial will you be 45 00:02:51.659 --> 00:02:56.729 there harry belafonte when I need to feel like beauty 46 00:02:57.229 --> 00:02:58.930 is still in the world. 47 00:02:59.810 --> 00:03:00.560 Jump in the line? 48 00:03:01.740 --> 00:03:06.520 No, I do try to remember. I'm kind of a 49 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:10.740 romantic at heart, and so that soothes that part of 50 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.530 me that helps me remember life is beautiful, that it 51 00:03:14.569 --> 00:03:17.870 can be captured in word and in sound and in 52 00:03:17.949 --> 00:03:23.449 vibration and in color. Sometimes I listen or observe Natalie Staltzman, 53 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:30.939 who's a brilliant conductor, especially in her version of Ombre 54 00:03:30.979 --> 00:03:35.479 Ma Fou. So sometimes I go the classical route and 55 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:40.060 choose different melodies and symphonies that also can move energy. 56 00:03:40.090 --> 00:03:45.050 So all of our creative arts and methods from our 57 00:03:45.150 --> 00:03:48.729 ancestors in one way is designed to do these things. 58 00:03:49.409 --> 00:03:51.530 But if we don't learn to master them and don't 59 00:03:51.550 --> 00:03:54.430 learn to take the time to do them, We just, 60 00:03:54.530 --> 00:03:57.030 as my grandmother used to say, run around like chickens 61 00:03:57.069 --> 00:03:57.930 with our heads cut off. 62 00:04:00.009 --> 00:04:02.270 So you put the music on and dance as a 63 00:04:02.310 --> 00:04:06.210 way to get the energy flowing? 64 00:04:06.389 --> 00:04:11.250 Sometimes I dance. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes I lay down 65 00:04:11.310 --> 00:04:14.930 and just let the sound and the music wash over 66 00:04:14.969 --> 00:04:19.990 my body. Sometimes it inspires a poem, etc., or another 67 00:04:20.069 --> 00:04:25.870 song that I find healing. and energizing and recovering to 68 00:04:25.910 --> 00:04:28.550 listen to so I don't get lost in my pain. 69 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:36.639 And then sometimes, always, every day, I go outside. So 70 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.759 one of my practices daily at morning and noon and night, 71 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.990 if I can, is to be outside of four walls 72 00:04:44.449 --> 00:04:49.620 and pay attention to the equanimity of nature. One of 73 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:53.050 the things I learned a long time ago is why

74 00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:56.889 I discovered my love for the natural world is I 75 00:04:56.949 --> 00:05:01.810 find it nonjudgmental. I can lay on a tree. I 76 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:04.009 can sit on a rock. I can put my toes 77 00:05:04.089 --> 00:05:06.810 in a river. And I've done all those things all 78 00:05:06.889 --> 00:05:09.430 over the world many times and are yet to be rejected. 79 00:05:11.209 --> 00:05:13.629 And so I find spending time in nature, learning to 80 00:05:13.750 --> 00:05:19.199 rest in nature, observe nature, appreciate nature, including observing animals 81 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:22.949 and their behaviors and insects and all these creatures. I 82 00:05:22.970 --> 00:05:26.529 spend a part of my day doing that. And it 83 00:05:26.589 --> 00:05:29.350 gets to remind me that we're in a world much bigger, 84 00:05:30.110 --> 00:05:33.480 but that we are a part of that process. So 85 00:05:33.540 --> 00:05:37.259 I find that helpful. Sometimes I read poems. Sometimes I 86 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:42.360 write poems. Then, of course, I meditate daily. And I 87 00:05:42.379 --> 00:05:45.379 have different practices of that from many years of learning 88 00:05:45.420 --> 00:05:46.730 from many people around the world. 89 00:05:49.819 --> 00:05:54.079 For trauma specifically, is meditation useful and what kind of meditation? 90 00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:00.069 Okay. It's a very good question. And my caveat to 91 00:06:00.110 --> 00:06:05.970 that is not always. Because my experience has been in 92 00:06:06.029 --> 00:06:11.000 feedback from both new practitioners and even older practitioners is 93 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:15.279 think traumatic things come up in meditation for many people. 94 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:18.480 But when it comes up, they don't know how to 95 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:24.279 care for it. So it ends up re-triggering them, re-traumatizing them. 96 00:06:24.980 --> 00:06:28.399 And so my approach now, based on what I've been 97 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:31.560 learning about myself, which is very consistent with the first 98 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.199 foundation of mindfulness practice in Buddhism, is to understand the 99 00:06:35.259 --> 00:06:39.290 body not just as an external phenomenon or a bunch 100 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:41.949 of organs, though all that's very important, but to understand 101 00:06:42.009 --> 00:06:47.350 our systems, our biological, emotional systems, and learn how to 102 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:50.930 master what we can of those learn how to enhance 103 00:06:51.730 --> 00:06:55.050 what we can of those. So that's kind of how 104 00:06:55.170 --> 00:07:00.009 I'm learning and continuing to practice. And so for some people, not, 105 00:07:01.139 --> 00:07:06.759 you know, deep meditation, maybe just relaxation meditation to begin, 106 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.779 but to go deeper, I find it helpful now in 107 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:13.389 this world at this moment for people to have

a 108 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:15.829 sense of being able to be in their body, be 109 00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:19.459 grounded in their body, know the sensations of the whole 110 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:23.420 movement of somatic experiencing that's going on. Those are life skills, 111 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.910 so they can become second nature to us. So I 112 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:32.250 can take a walk. And in taking a walk, if 113 00:07:32.329 --> 00:07:35.370 I'm processing my trauma, the question is, what is my 114 00:07:35.449 --> 00:07:39.360 mind doing when I'm walking? And so one of the 115 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:43.279 practices I have that I really learned from Thich Nhat 116 00:07:43.300 --> 00:07:46.759 Hanh is to do walking meditation. And when I put 117 00:07:46.819 --> 00:07:50.079 my feet down I let go of the energy that's 118 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:54.990 causing me harm. And when my feet touch the earth, 119 00:07:55.089 --> 00:07:58.930 then I receive the energy from the earth, which is 120 00:07:59.110 --> 00:08:04.129 pure equanimity, the earth's energy. And then I receive that. 121 00:08:04.189 --> 00:08:06.310 I could feel that energy entering my body. So it's 122 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:12.860 very kinesthetic practice of Buddhism, not abstract Buddhism, though I'm 123 00:08:12.939 --> 00:08:15.240 studied in all those things. But to me, all that 124 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.839 abstract stuff is pointing to practice. Otherwise, like, what good 125 00:08:18.899 --> 00:08:19.149 is it? 126 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:24.860 It's so interesting to hear you describe this moving meditation 127 00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:27.279 that you learned from Thich Nhat Hanh. As you step 128 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:33.100 onto the earth, you're letting go of pain, suffering, and 129 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:37.470 receiving the support of the planet. It's in many ways 130 00:08:37.529 --> 00:08:41.970 kind of a mirror of the Tibetan Tonglen practice where 131 00:08:41.990 --> 00:08:44.889 you're breathing in other people's suffering and breathing out your 132 00:08:44.929 --> 00:08:48.000 wish for their And both seem necessary. We have to 133 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:49.879 care for ourselves and we need to care for other people. 134 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:53.480 You can't do the caring for other people if you're 135 00:08:53.500 --> 00:08:53.860 a mess. 136 00:08:54.100 --> 00:08:58.299 That's correct. That's correct. And so, so many of us 137 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:03.750 burn out in justice work and healthcare work, corporate work, 138 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:07.190 or we could take any field, educational work, especially if 139 00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:12.029 it gets close to the candle of justice. It's easy 140 00:09:12.110 --> 00:09:14.490 for our empathy to burn us out if we don't 141 00:09:14.529 --> 00:09:18.340 know how to take our empathy energy and transmute it 142 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:24.700 into compassion. And so part of my regime, my daily 143 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.580 practice is to allow my empathy to unfold because I 144 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:34.909 believe we basically have an empathy insufficiency world across everywhere 145 00:09:35.549 --> 00:09:41.250 I've been. And I don't see much possibility or another 146 00:09:41.269 --> 00:09:43.149 way to say, I think our next step is to 147 00:09:43.230 --> 00:09:46.860 recover our humanity and In this sense of our basic 148 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:53.019 empathy as really the ground for society or civilization. When 149 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.889 Margaret Mead was asked once about what did she consider 150 00:09:56.929 --> 00:10:01.200 a civilization, she told a story about a thigh. of 151 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:04.720 a person found in the forest that you could tell 152 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.399 somebody tried to care for this person and they didn't 153 00:10:07.419 --> 00:10:11.080 make it. And her point was caring is the fundamental 154 00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:16.379 foundation of a society, care for one another. And so 155 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.259 we have yet to learn how to do that here. 156 00:10:22.379 --> 00:10:24.779 Here specifically, America specifically. 157 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.779 Correct. I can say that anywhere, but I'm here now 158 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:35.419 and here for 400 years with the same experience of 159 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:41.230 insufficiency of empathy. And there is consequences for the person 160 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:46.330 whose empathy is shut down. It is so, and when 161 00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:50.649 we think about trauma, we have to remember victims, perpetrators, 162 00:10:50.850 --> 00:10:55.960 and witnesses. Because in our human experience, in our neurological research, 163 00:10:56.049 --> 00:11:01.399 we know witnessing a trauma activates trauma in you as 164 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:08.000 a witness, let alone the perpetrator, whose nervous systems have 165 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:10.100 really been destroyed by their own destruction. 166 00:11:12.490 --> 00:11:17.730 I'm curious, when you're doing a formal seated meditation, I 167 00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:20.710 don't know what your practice looks like, but whether you're 168 00:11:20.750 --> 00:11:23.389 mostly doing moving meditation these days, or let's just say 169 00:11:23.409 --> 00:11:28.110 you're doing seated meditation and some strong trauma comes up 170 00:11:28.190 --> 00:11:32.350 for you. Now, granted, you're not a beginner, but how 171 00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:34.350 do you handle that in the moment? 172 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:37.929 In the moment, what I do is I direct my 173 00:11:38.090 --> 00:11:44.539 attention to the sensations two inches below my navel, or 174 00:11:44.580 --> 00:11:48.980 the tendin, as it's sometimes referred to. Because that lower 175 00:11:49.059 --> 00:11:53.840 center of gravity allows my nervous system and my entire 176 00:11:53.919 --> 00:12:00.350 breathing process to

begin to get more space. Begin to 177 00:12:00.389 --> 00:12:05.090 get calmer. And so I stay there and sometimes I 178 00:12:05.129 --> 00:12:07.450 hold my hands on my stomach and just stay with 179 00:12:07.470 --> 00:12:12.370 the rising and falling sensation. But I leave my mind. 180 00:12:13.940 --> 00:12:16.240 Stay with the body because that's where the trauma is. 181 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.080 The mind is thinking about the trauma, but the body 182 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:23.399 is holding the trauma. And so that's immediately what I do. 183 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.299 And if I'm in sitting position or if I'm in 184 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.899 sitting position and that doesn't do it, I go lay 185 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:35.519 down on the earth and do that same practice. But 186 00:12:35.899 --> 00:12:38.019 as I begin and I'm starting to feel the earth 187 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.980 energy radiating up, coming up through my body. And so 188 00:12:43.059 --> 00:12:48.299 I'm feeling I have some stability underneath me as I 189 00:12:49.090 --> 00:12:50.509 breathe that way. 190 00:12:51.629 --> 00:12:52.649 I hear two things there. 191 00:12:52.830 --> 00:12:53.389 One is. 192 00:12:54.809 --> 00:12:56.730 You're not going to do much in terms of taking 193 00:12:56.750 --> 00:12:58.509 care of yourself in the face of trauma if you're 194 00:12:58.529 --> 00:13:02.360 stuck in your own thinking. And two, the power of 195 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:04.840 nature again, because if you lie on the earth, it's 196 00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:06.159 not going to judge or reject you. 197 00:13:06.259 --> 00:13:11.240 Yeah. And learning how to feel that, feeling that sensation 198 00:13:11.299 --> 00:13:16.799 of safety in your body. And that's a very powerful 199 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:20.399 sensation of safety. 200 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:24.980 That seems powerful in no small measure because so many 201 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:26.980 black Americans right now do not feel safe. 202 00:13:27.379 --> 00:13:31.570 That's correct. You know, and part of what for many 203 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.690 people has opened up in their consciousness, well, you know, 204 00:13:35.809 --> 00:13:40.169 I have never felt safe except through my own practice. 205 00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:45.759 Society has not given me any reason to feel safe 206 00:13:47.110 --> 00:13:50.210 for my whole life. When I feel safe, I am 207 00:13:50.250 --> 00:13:55.330 grounded in safety because of my spiritual practice. And so 208 00:13:56.009 --> 00:14:02.269 that allows me to navigate my way through unsafety, which 209 00:14:02.330 --> 00:14:04.929 is not just a personal experience or a black experience, 210 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.799 quote unquote, as a human experience. And that's why understanding 211 00:14:08.860 --> 00:14:12.250 how our nervous systems work And, you know, the nervous 212 00:14:12.289 --> 00:14:15.649 system of a human is the same wherever we are, 213 00:14:16.389 --> 00:14:19.049 which some people seem to have trouble understanding about the virus. 214 00:14:19.129 --> 00:14:22.049 But I've said to my wife recently, more people should 215 00:14:22.100 --> 00:14:27.080 have paid attention in biology. And I'm really learning how 216 00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:30.740 important it is to, as I get older especially, to 217 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:35.820 understand more and more how to respect my body. And 218 00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:38.490 the information it's giving me, how it's communicating, what it's 219 00:14:38.570 --> 00:14:42.899 telling me. And then I get choices once I'm sensitive 220 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.320 enough to that. My range of choices of how to 221 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.679 respond is expanded. 222 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:51.710 You just when you're you're you're comment about more people 223 00:14:51.730 --> 00:14:54.830 should have studied biology in relation to the virus reminds me. 224 00:14:54.950 --> 00:14:58.330 I was on the set of Good Morning America recently 225 00:14:58.450 --> 00:15:02.470 and we were playing some videos of people, some swarm 226 00:15:02.549 --> 00:15:06.929 of revelers on Memorial Day. Nobody wearing a mask. 227 00:15:06.970 --> 00:15:07.129 Yeah. 228 00:15:07.669 --> 00:15:09.720 And I remember turning to one of my, I might 229 00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:11.200 get in trouble for saying this, but I'll say it. 230 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.720 I remember turning to one of my co-anchors and saying, well, 231 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:16.279 I guess we have a constitutional right to be stupid. 232 00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:20.720 Well, you know, and it's sad because of what's at risk. 233 00:15:22.179 --> 00:15:24.200 I mean, their very lives are at risk. And so 234 00:15:24.220 --> 00:15:30.019 I understand the challenges of trying to get a modern 235 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:34.059 culture like ours that has strong habit patterns and energies 236 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.100 around doing what I want whenever I want, if I can. 237 00:15:38.509 --> 00:15:42.090 And so the idea of, you know, following a set 238 00:15:42.129 --> 00:15:45.110 of rules for whatever reason, it's very difficult for some 239 00:15:45.149 --> 00:15:51.730 people to even understand why. We've been so individuated, fragmented 240 00:15:51.789 --> 00:15:53.830 in our understanding of what it means to be human 241 00:15:53.870 --> 00:15:59.169 here as individuals that we take all the glory as 242 00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:03.250 an individual, but we also take all the blame and 243 00:16:03.309 --> 00:16:06.720 pay little attention as possible to the systems that or 244 00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:09.580 the context that creates the situation in which we're having 245 00:16:09.620 --> 00:16:10.360 these experiences. 246 00:16:14.509 --> 00:16:17.190 Let me go back to the early part of this interview, 247 00:16:17.250 --> 00:16:19.070 because I want to ask a question that I suspect 248

00:16:19.129 --> 00:16:22.210 will in some way actually build on a note you've 249 00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:26.759 been sounding, maybe an undertone I've been hearing throughout this interview. 250 00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:30.870 Hopefully my empathic sense is tuned enough so that I'm 251 00:16:31.129 --> 00:16:33.250 actually taking you in the direction you want to go here. 252 00:16:33.629 --> 00:16:35.840 But one of the things you said very early on 253 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.059 in the interview was when I was asking you how 254 00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:40.659 you're doing right now, one of the, you listed a 255 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.139 lot of difficult emotions, but you also talk about feeling 256 00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:49.220 a sense of potential. And so can you talk about 257 00:16:49.899 --> 00:16:53.289 why that is and what the potential you see may be? 258 00:16:54.710 --> 00:16:59.570 Well, there's several different frameworks I can use to But 259 00:16:59.590 --> 00:17:03.350 these are only metaphors. But in the Four Noble Truths 260 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:10.740 of the Buddhist tradition, our capacity for liberation, spiritual liberation 261 00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:15.259 embodied in our life, goes through the doorway of suffering. 262 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:20.420 It does not go around it. And so it's no 263 00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:24.250 different than me. Last week I was visiting for an 264 00:17:24.289 --> 00:17:27.130 annual checkup at the hospital, and so they're checking me out. 265 00:17:28.099 --> 00:17:29.660 And then I get to have a test and I 266 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.119 get feedback that says, well, your body is suffering here. 267 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.910 Your body may be suffering there. And so for me 268 00:17:34.950 --> 00:17:36.470 to care for my body is the same as to 269 00:17:36.509 --> 00:17:40.269 care for my mind. To recognize my suffering, do not 270 00:17:40.329 --> 00:17:43.049 pretend it's not there. That's the most dangerous thing one 271 00:17:43.089 --> 00:17:47.230 can do because then one internalizes it. I mean, Freud 272 00:17:47.250 --> 00:17:53.369 talked about this. We internalize our shadow, which is our 273 00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:57.369 suffering if we don't handle it with care. It becomes... 274 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:02.900 And when that shadow, if it's so intense, gets provoked, 275 00:18:03.029 --> 00:18:10.509 it turns primitive, irrational in responding to life's issues and 276 00:18:10.869 --> 00:18:16.549 angst of being a human being. So I think we 277 00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:19.529 have the potential because we're suffering so and so many 278 00:18:19.589 --> 00:18:23.470 more of us are recognizing the suffering. We have the 279 00:18:23.529 --> 00:18:28.500 potential to heal and transform the suffering. But if we 280 00:18:28.539 --> 00:18:33.559 cannot recognize, we can't heal or transform it. It will 281 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.509 just continue as it is. And part of what

the quote-unquote, 282 00:18:39.349 --> 00:18:41.430 I don't know what to call these. These aren't riots. 283 00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:48.450 These aren't even protests. They're acknowledgments of a system flaw. 284 00:18:49.890 --> 00:18:53.230 William Irwin Thompson, he used to teach at MIT, wrote 285 00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:57.619 a book many years ago. He talked about the utopian flaw. 286 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.359 that exist in the founding of every human organization or institution. 287 00:19:04.339 --> 00:19:09.460 And we're having to confront our utopian flaw. We have 288 00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:11.779 put it off as long as we can. We've talked 289 00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:14.789 around it as long as we can. We pretended it 290 00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:16.910 wasn't there as long as we can, but enough people 291 00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:20.910 are witnessing the flaw in our human interactions with one 292 00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:24.930 another and our capacity for living well together in a 293 00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:28.140 world and a society of justice and caring That people 294 00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:30.259 are realizing, hey, I want to live in a society 295 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:34.940 with justice and caring, not that. And for me, that's potential. 296 00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:40.420 How exactly would you articulate our utopian flaw? 297 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.420 Well, most recently, the insight I had into it is 298 00:19:45.349 --> 00:19:48.910 the title of the most recent blog is America, the 299 00:19:48.950 --> 00:19:55.000 business world. trying to become a country or an article 300 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.970 last year in wall street journal new york times wrote 301 00:19:59.049 --> 00:20:03.289 an editorial said when did we become how did we 302 00:20:03.349 --> 00:20:08.769 move from being uh having a marketplace to becoming a 303 00:20:08.809 --> 00:20:15.680 market culture So translation, the economic function of our society 304 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.500 in terms of how we value it dominates all other 305 00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:24.309 functions of society. So to have meaning, to be of worth, 306 00:20:25.269 --> 00:20:32.150 to have a life of value is about accumulating economics, power, capacity, etc. Now, 307 00:20:32.210 --> 00:20:35.750 you don't have a society without economics because you don't 308 00:20:35.769 --> 00:20:38.049 have food, you can't eat, and you're dead. So to me, 309 00:20:38.069 --> 00:20:41.279 that's not the issue. The issue is What's happened to 310 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.559 our whole social fabric? So if our social fabric was 311 00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:50.289 a triangle, our emphasis and dominance of the economic on 312 00:20:50.349 --> 00:20:52.950 our perceptions of what it means to be human, what 313 00:20:53.009 --> 00:20:57.730 is valuable in the human experience, what is our life purpose? Like, 314 00:20:57.750 --> 00:21:00.960 you know, our triangles has a huge chunk of it 315 00:21:01.019 --> 00:21:04.940 that says economics and our politics has become an ally 316 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:10.549 to that. And that collapses our cultural sense, and therefore 317 00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:15.269 no unity is possible, no shared meaning is possible. And 318 00:21:15.309 --> 00:21:19.150 then if you individuate all of that, we don't even 319 00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:22.490 know it's happening until we have something like this occur. 320 00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:31.099 And this primacy of the market as it pertains to 321 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:34.240 race is the root of that, that we brought millions of, 322 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:39.079 people from Africa here solely for economic purposes? 323 00:21:39.339 --> 00:21:41.920 Well, that's part of it, but I'm talking at root 324 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.839 about the whole colonial enterprise all the way from the 325 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:54.630 doctrine of discovery that all was, you know, let's build wealth. Right. 326 00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:55.970 We began as a business endeavor. 327 00:21:56.109 --> 00:22:02.170 Yeah, exactly. And so, and I liked business and, Okay, 328 00:22:02.210 --> 00:22:04.769 I think it's important. I enjoy doing it. I enjoy 329 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:11.660 working with it. But business is not the final definition 330 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:13.220 of what it means to be a human being. 331 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:21.339 But weren't there lofty non-economic goals in there? I mean, Jefferson, 332 00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:24.269 himself a slave owner, let's not forget, talked about life, liberty, 333 00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:27.190 and the pursuit of happiness, although it began as life, liberty, 334 00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:28.230 and the pursuit of property. 335 00:22:28.250 --> 00:22:29.349 Exactly. 336 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.890 But nonetheless, life and liberty and then what he edited 337 00:22:34.130 --> 00:22:39.289 into of pursuit of happiness, those are non-economic goals, right? 338 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:43.269 But the way we've designed the society is how we 339 00:22:43.309 --> 00:22:48.789 define what life, liberty, and what we should pursue. And 340 00:22:48.849 --> 00:22:52.430 so all those things now are defined by economic indicators. 341 00:22:53.829 --> 00:22:56.380 Yeah, happiness is a McMansion and a Mercedes. 342 00:22:56.390 --> 00:23:02.539 Right, exactly. Great insight from Jefferson. Very important. However, it's 343 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:08.119 how we take our insights from our founding, from our teachers, 344 00:23:08.180 --> 00:23:11.380 from philosophers, from history. It's how we think about those 345 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.059 insights and apply them and how we look underneath them 346 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.480 so we can see how they get shifted and moved around. 347 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.000 So we can ask ourselves, is this how we want 348 00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:24.160 to live? Right. 349 00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:27.559

So you've brought us back to potential. And another way 350 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.000 you phrase the potential of this moment, and in reading 351 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:33.029 some of your blog posts recently, there are a couple 352 00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:35.730 of ways you've phrased it. One that's coming to mind 353 00:23:35.829 --> 00:23:38.029 is that we have an opportunity here. We have the 354 00:23:38.049 --> 00:23:42.869 potential to break your phrase here, America's racial karma. 355 00:23:43.329 --> 00:23:46.099 Correct. 356 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:48.240 Can you unpack that for us? 357 00:23:48.859 --> 00:23:51.339 Sure. Sure. I have a book coming out on that 358 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:53.980 in September, and it's right now at the copy editor, 359 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.720 I'm happy to say, with that title. And what intrigued 360 00:23:57.789 --> 00:24:02.549 me about, as I studied and practiced Buddhism and worked 361 00:24:02.609 --> 00:24:05.089 in my PhD in Buddhist studies and blah, blah, blah, 362 00:24:06.390 --> 00:24:11.029 and I've been at this inevitably without choice at the 363 00:24:11.069 --> 00:24:14.930 race matter my whole life. So karma, in this sense, 364 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:18.079 what I mean is a repeating cycle that causes suffering. 365 00:24:21.190 --> 00:24:27.210 a pattern of repeated cycles that create suffering. And the 366 00:24:27.250 --> 00:24:32.569 classic definition of karma is action. And my understanding of 367 00:24:32.630 --> 00:24:36.410 it in the book is it's action that continues to live. 368 00:24:38.410 --> 00:24:43.250 So part of what's happening now in the streets, as 369 00:24:43.390 --> 00:24:47.819 Dave Chappelle has put it, is that people are standing 370 00:24:47.930 --> 00:24:52.109 up and saying, this living action of this kind of 371 00:24:52.230 --> 00:25:00.700 suffering needs to stop. And karma is just energy that 372 00:25:00.859 --> 00:25:05.519 then shows up in our thinking, in our language, boy, 373 00:25:05.539 --> 00:25:08.599 can we see that, in our speech, and in our 374 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:14.140 physical behavior, and in our institutions and systems of being 375 00:25:14.529 --> 00:25:18.109 a society. And so that whole thread of that whole 376 00:25:18.269 --> 00:25:23.289 energy This is basically a business, and then we try 377 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:28.009 to make everything work around that principle. It's not sustainable 378 00:25:28.029 --> 00:25:32.750 for very long, especially as people wake up to themselves, 379 00:25:33.109 --> 00:25:36.539 to their education, to the nature of the world, and 380 00:25:36.579 --> 00:25:40.240 a future that none of us have figured out. So 381 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.220 people are like, I'm not doing this because I want 382 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.240 to destroy something. I'm doing this because I want to 383 00:25:44.299 --> 00:25:50.009 create something. And so also I see that as potential. 384 00:25:50.349 --> 00:25:55.369 If we can redirect that energy in the direction of 385 00:25:55.430 --> 00:25:59.910 creating something together that we'd be happy to live with 386 00:25:59.970 --> 00:26:01.210 and have our children live with. 387 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:05.440 Just to pick up on what you said about Dave Chappelle, 388 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:09.460 I want to recommend listeners check out the new clip 389 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:15.180 he posted on YouTube with his response to George Floyd. 390 00:26:15.859 --> 00:26:17.380 Dave Chappelle is one of my personal favorites. 391 00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:18.140 Heroes. 392 00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:21.569 I've quoted him in both books I've written, and my 393 00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:23.289 goal is to make sure I get a Dave Chappelle 394 00:26:23.309 --> 00:26:23.950 quote in every. 395 00:26:23.789 --> 00:26:24.980 Book I write. That's great. 396 00:26:25.700 --> 00:26:28.549 So go check that out. But back to the economics 397 00:26:28.769 --> 00:26:33.769 that you're describing here, do you see policy ramifications from– 398 00:26:33.789 --> 00:26:37.720 I mean, it's interesting to hear a critique of capitalism 399 00:26:37.779 --> 00:26:40.220 from you because, obviously, you've done so much work with 400 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.759 Fortune 500 companies. You've just said you don't dislike business. 401 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.069 You're not anti-capitalist per se. So how would this rethink 402 00:26:48.170 --> 00:26:51.950 of the role of the marketplace in our life, in 403 00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:55.730 our lives– show up on a policy level or is it, 404 00:26:55.779 --> 00:26:58.019 or what is what you're talking about much more sort 405 00:26:58.039 --> 00:26:59.339 of psychological, spiritual? 406 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.680 Well, at the first instance, for me, it's psychological and 407 00:27:03.740 --> 00:27:08.670 spiritual because if our relationship to the meaning of life 408 00:27:10.670 --> 00:27:14.910 only stays in the realm of materiality, which is what 409 00:27:14.970 --> 00:27:18.410 another way of describing what I'm talking about, we can 410 00:27:18.470 --> 00:27:22.250 never be fully human in our experience with ourselves and 411 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:27.460 or with one another, because things are just things. However beautiful, 412 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:32.150 however grand, and I think business is very important. The 413 00:27:32.190 --> 00:27:35.609 question for me about economics is how to build wealth 414 00:27:36.410 --> 00:27:42.009 without creating suffering. You can do wonderful things with wealth 415 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:47.799 if one does, if one is willing, if one can, 416 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.089 and so Part of the dilemma with that is we've 417 00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:56.410 so individuated the meaning of being wealthy that we actually 418 00:27:56.450 --> 00:28:02.259 don't see our society as wealthy. That has consequences about 419 00:28:02.279 -->

00:28:06.900 how we think about policies. So what I'm trying to 420 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:10.859 say is the psychological and spiritual dimension actually rules how 421 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.099 we design and think about systems and what we even 422 00:28:14.180 --> 00:28:15.480 conceive of as possible. 423 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.220 So the veneration in our society of the rugged individual. 424 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:21.779 Yeah. 425 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:26.769 Sounds like you think that maybe that's the utopian flaw. 426 00:28:28.269 --> 00:28:32.269 That's a piece of it. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, 427 00:28:32.289 --> 00:28:36.049 there's a great book called Outliers written some years ago. 428 00:28:36.069 --> 00:28:39.769 There's a great interview with Bill Gates in it, and 429 00:28:39.789 --> 00:28:44.660 he described his high school. And how his unique high 430 00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:49.079 school experience contributed to him becoming who he is. The teachers, 431 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:55.750 the environment, the equipment. And so he's capable of recognizing 432 00:28:56.569 --> 00:29:03.210 how he did not create himself. And that's what I'm 433 00:29:03.250 --> 00:29:07.579 talking about. So that we understand how we contribute to 434 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.190 each other's lives. And right now, our frame for how 435 00:29:11.250 --> 00:29:17.059 we impact each other is framed in negativity. We have 436 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:22.740 very little sharing, communication, news, information about how we impact 437 00:29:22.779 --> 00:29:28.109 each other's lives positively. I saw an astounding clip recently 438 00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:31.710 in the UK on the QT network. I've never seen that, 439 00:29:31.769 --> 00:29:35.170 but it was a protest march, I think in London 440 00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:38.900 or Bristol, someplace like that. And It was a confrontation 441 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.319 between black lives. Matter people a spattering of other groups 442 00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:46.980 and quote unquote the far right there in Europe and 443 00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:50.670 one of the far right white guys was being attacked 444 00:29:51.950 --> 00:29:55.589 and life was literally being physically threatened and he was 445 00:29:55.690 --> 00:29:58.119 rescued by the Black Lives Matter guys who were there 446 00:29:59.089 --> 00:30:02.390 But that's not on the news. So, I mean, it's 447 00:30:02.430 --> 00:30:06.009 how we feed our minds, how we feed our emotions 448 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:11.299 that will either redirect the energy, which is profound. I 449 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:13.519 think we have no idea how much energy we have 450 00:30:13.539 --> 00:30:15.640 to create the future in America because so much of 451 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.480 it is going to managing our stress, managing our shame, 452 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:23.789 managing our guilt. We have a huge reservoir of energy 453 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:28.089

and talent, which I have confidence in. 454 00:30:31.329 --> 00:30:41.170 More 10 percent happier after this. In terms of potential, 455 00:30:41.190 --> 00:30:44.150 there was something quite moving in a recent blog post 456 00:30:44.210 --> 00:30:51.319 from you about how moved you've been by the multiracial 457 00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:55.589 nature of. You were struggling to find the word for it, 458 00:30:55.630 --> 00:30:58.990 protests or whatever we're seeing, whatever you want to call 459 00:30:59.009 --> 00:31:04.369 what we're seeing right now. And you posited that what 460 00:31:04.410 --> 00:31:08.190 we're seeing right now, perhaps because we've all been forced 461 00:31:08.230 --> 00:31:12.710 to slow down because of the pandemic, is just an 462 00:31:12.769 --> 00:31:17.039 awakening of empathy after we've all witnessed the George Floyd 463 00:31:17.059 --> 00:31:19.319 video and then obviously taken in the facts of Breonna 464 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:20.799 Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, etc. 465 00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:20.960 etc. 466 00:31:21.769 --> 00:31:23.829 Am I describing your view correctly, and can you say 467 00:31:23.890 --> 00:31:24.670 more about it, if so? 468 00:31:24.950 --> 00:31:28.369 Yes, and I think, back to the Margaret Mead example 469 00:31:28.430 --> 00:31:31.210 and some others, but empathy as part of the fabric 470 00:31:31.269 --> 00:31:37.059 of human sociality. We wouldn't have survived as a species 471 00:31:37.779 --> 00:31:44.759 without the neurological capacity for empathy. So I think it's 472 00:31:45.619 --> 00:31:51.569 feeling someone's pain, but that's also being able to to 473 00:31:51.609 --> 00:31:58.009 feel someone's joy. And so when we suppress or become 474 00:31:58.289 --> 00:32:02.990 deficient in our capacity to feel our own humanity, we 475 00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:08.019 rob ourselves of a very rich experience of meaning. So 476 00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:15.160 I think that the energy flowing from empathy to a 477 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:20.240 larger sense or a compassionate sense of what's possible for 478 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:24.579 our world and our planet. A friend of mine has 479 00:32:24.619 --> 00:32:29.480 a book called The Compassionate Civilization. I think that's what's 480 00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:33.880 trying to be born. I think, oh, another way to 481 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:38.680 say that kind of negatively is a non-predatory world in 482 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.640 terms of both our relationship to one another and to nature. 483 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:47.079 This is a big shift in our human conditioning and 484 00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:52.710 neurological patterning to date. That's why it's so hard. The 485 00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:56.450 reason I also see this as potential and possible is 486 00:32:56.490 --> 00:33:01.250 because genetically and neurologically, we have these things within us already. 487 00:33:01.309 --> 00:33:05.109 It's not like you can go get it from somewhere. 488 00:33:07.150 --> 00:33:10.210 It's already within us all. So how do we nourish that? 489 00:33:10.289 --> 00:33:13.019 How do we care for that? How do we protect that? 490 00:33:14.390 --> 00:33:17.079 in ourselves, and in our children, and in our society. 491 00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.819 I've been around the world many times and in many places, 492 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:27.180 and my basic experience has been great. And I've been 493 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.730 in remote villages, and I've been in Calcutta, I've been 494 00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:36.710 in Hong Kong, and London, you know, Mexico City, Caracas, Toronto, 495 00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:39.940 I can go on and on, Brussels, Paris, etc., up 496 00:33:39.980 --> 00:33:42.440 in the mountains in Italy, working with village people there 497 00:33:42.500 --> 00:33:48.099 on socioeconomic development projects, as well as in Kenya and Ghana, etc. 498 00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:54.869 And everywhere I've been, my fundamental experience of humanity has 499 00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:59.369 been great. But part of what I'm trying to say 500 00:33:59.569 --> 00:34:04.549 to us is we need to tell that story to ourselves. 501 00:34:06.829 --> 00:34:11.139 We tell ourselves a very different story My wife and 502 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:13.880 I were on a trip to China to go study 503 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:18.829 at some temples there. And it so happened to be 504 00:34:20.349 --> 00:34:23.289 the day after the U.S. had accidentally bombed the Chinese 505 00:34:23.349 --> 00:34:26.909 embassy in Belgrade. And so people were saying, don't go. 506 00:34:26.929 --> 00:34:29.840 You're going to have a problem. And so we couldn't 507 00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:31.519 afford not to go if we had our tickets. So 508 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.739 we went and we got emails from our friends saying, 509 00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:39.099 what problems do you have with being in China? Two things. 510 00:34:40.409 --> 00:34:42.530 Some people greeted us at the airport who could speak 511 00:34:42.610 --> 00:34:49.380 English well and said, please don't confuse us with our government. 512 00:34:52.219 --> 00:34:56.880 And we won't confuse you with yours. And so I'm 513 00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:03.119 really talking about how we as citizens, civil society, think 514 00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:07.159 about ourselves and not simply turn over how we shape 515 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:13.340 the future to people in whatever positions. Because it's obvious 516 00:35:13.420 --> 00:35:18.260 we need to change and grow. The planet's telling us that. 517 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.269 Our social structures are telling us that. People, bodies in 518 00:35:22.289 --> 00:35:24.750 the streets and in camps and in cages are all 519 00:35:24.809 --> 00:35:32.469 telling us that. And I think that's possible. I see 520 00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:37.110 no reason it's not possible. But unless we choose to 521 00:35:37.179 --> 00:35:43.829 change

ourselves, we'll stay in the pattern. that will repeat 522 00:35:43.909 --> 00:35:47.949 itself of what we're seeing right now, which has been 523 00:35:47.989 --> 00:35:50.469 going on. I just got a list of all the 524 00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:53.369 similar events that have happened over the last hundred years alone. 525 00:35:53.389 --> 00:36:00.309 It's predictable. It's sadly predictable. And so to be willing 526 00:36:00.389 --> 00:36:04.269 to live in a society with that sad prediction harms 527 00:36:04.449 --> 00:36:10.820 us all. And it's quite tragic. Some people don't understand 528 00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:12.960 being human enough yet to get that. 529 00:36:15.469 --> 00:36:17.550 I imagine many people listening to this are thinking, well, yeah, 530 00:36:17.570 --> 00:36:19.309 I want to be part of this. I want to 531 00:36:19.349 --> 00:36:22.889 be part of the breaking of these cycles. To what 532 00:36:22.929 --> 00:36:29.650 extent can meditation for an individual help us be productive 533 00:36:29.710 --> 00:36:30.449 players right now? 534 00:36:31.389 --> 00:36:35.139 Well, one of the key things, dimensions of meditation practice 535 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:41.780 beyond relaxation and getting calm is learning how your mind 536 00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:48.340 has actually been constructed by your own experience, by your society, 537 00:36:49.219 --> 00:36:54.769 by your history, and learning what those energies are in 538 00:36:54.809 --> 00:36:59.909 your own mind and selectively choosing which of those energies 539 00:36:59.989 --> 00:37:06.130 are going to get your most attention. And if you 540 00:37:06.210 --> 00:37:09.300 don't make conscious choices like that through your own practice, 541 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:14.059 the energies that have the most momentum or the most 542 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:20.500 habituation in your past thinking, speaking, and action will carry on. That, 543 00:37:20.539 --> 00:37:22.980 to me, is a piece of it. And so learning 544 00:37:23.019 --> 00:37:27.940 to recognize in myself or to deconstruct, working on a 545 00:37:28.139 --> 00:37:31.219 new course my wife teaches at the university, deconstructing the 546 00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:35.760 colonial mind, And so when people think of that, they 547 00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:38.039 tend to think, you know, they see images of ships 548 00:37:38.179 --> 00:37:42.920 and soldiers. But the colonial mind has nothing to do 549 00:37:42.940 --> 00:37:46.559 with how somebody's dressed particularly. It's a way of thinking 550 00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:49.619 about being human. It's a way of thinking about the world. 551 00:37:50.780 --> 00:37:52.699 It's a way of thinking about how to be together 552 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.199 as a society. And so we need to look at 553 00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:05.300 our own internalized structures of sufferings. and decide and choose 554 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:09.889 what we want to deconstruct. But deconstruction is not enough. 555 00:38:11.230 --> 00:38:13.809 My image for this is the rose bush right outside 556 00:38:13.869 --> 00:38:17.179 our house that deconstructs itself and reconstructs itself at the 557 00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:21.860 same time. So it's not deconstruction is only a part 558 00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:25.659 of the energy. The energy has to finally be focused 559 00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:27.840 and grounded in construction. 560 00:38:29.250 --> 00:38:32.510 If the colonial mind isn't just somebody with a tricorner 561 00:38:32.550 --> 00:38:35.670 hat and a fife and drum corps, how would I 562 00:38:35.829 --> 00:38:40.110 recognize the colonial mind in myself? What are the aspects 563 00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:41.639 of it that I should be on the lookout for? 564 00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:44.760 The way I'm learning to describe it, a piece of 565 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:50.340 it is the mind of patriarchy, the male-centered view of 566 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:54.429 the universe. And to me, the most powerful thing about 567 00:38:54.489 --> 00:38:59.010 this is It's not only the power of position and privilege, 568 00:38:59.070 --> 00:39:03.900 et cetera, it is the power of defining what humanity 569 00:39:03.980 --> 00:39:10.119 means for everyone else. That's one piece of it, definition 570 00:39:10.420 --> 00:39:15.800 of the human hierarchy. A second part of it is 571 00:39:15.889 --> 00:39:22.449 an orientation towards status and wealth and affirmation seen through 572 00:39:22.530 --> 00:39:28.179 material acquisition. And then I think the third part of 573 00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:34.420 it is power. Power over. Power to control. And we 574 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:38.489 all have these urges in us. We can call them colonial, 575 00:39:38.510 --> 00:39:42.550 but I'm speaking in a specific context with the book 576 00:39:42.610 --> 00:39:46.510 and our discussion here about American race. And that whole 577 00:39:46.570 --> 00:39:51.690 adventure of colonialism itself. And this tragic results for many, 578 00:39:51.769 --> 00:39:57.429 many people. And so the idea, I mean, as a male, 579 00:39:57.590 --> 00:40:00.869 I'm continuing, quote unquote, a male, I'm continuing to learn 580 00:40:03.230 --> 00:40:06.210 when I think, oh, I know what to do. Oh, 581 00:40:07.610 --> 00:40:11.690 I'm supposed to take charge. Oh, I'm and I more 582 00:40:11.710 --> 00:40:15.690 and more recognize these patterns in myself. And as I 583 00:40:15.730 --> 00:40:17.820 have done that over the years and I'm still learning. 584 00:40:18.530 --> 00:40:24.449 for all my days. But I discovered I'm less stressful. 585 00:40:25.530 --> 00:40:28.550 I don't have to be in charge. I can support 586 00:40:28.590 --> 00:40:32.030 the process. I can support other people. I don't have 587 00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:34.329 to tell anybody what to do. I can ask people 588 00:40:34.349 --> 00:40:38.429 what they think should be done. And so that's how 589 00:40:38.530 --> 00:40:40.130 I

am on a daily basis. I mean, of course, 590 00:40:40.150 --> 00:40:43.110 you're married, you have a partnership, whatever set of relationships. 591 00:40:43.570 --> 00:40:46.170 These energies are in us. We've been conditioned by a 592 00:40:46.449 --> 00:40:50.440 commercialized society. our movies and what we read and blah, blah, blah. 593 00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:56.320 So Thich Nhat Hanh's great insight here, one of them, 594 00:40:56.739 --> 00:41:02.590 is whatever unhealthy pattern I heal in myself, I heal 595 00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:11.650 in the world. But also whatever healthy patterns I create 596 00:41:11.989 --> 00:41:15.159 and generate in myself are healthy patterns that are being 597 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.840 generated and created in the world. if we get past 598 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:25.659 the idea that we passed the illusion of separateness, he 599 00:41:25.699 --> 00:41:28.920 calls it, if we get past that and can really 600 00:41:29.019 --> 00:41:32.030 see ourselves not just as matter, but also as energy, 601 00:41:32.050 --> 00:41:37.230 you know, back to thermodynamic laws, we can begin to 602 00:41:37.329 --> 00:41:41.960 really see who we are and therefore what we're capable of. 603 00:41:41.989 --> 00:41:45.409 And so my sadness that I'm experiencing, I know is 604 00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:49.909 the sadness of many people. And so is my joy, 605 00:41:50.889 --> 00:41:53.250 but so is my kindness. So is my, so that 606 00:41:53.369 --> 00:41:56.869 my experience of being a human being is not a 607 00:41:56.929 --> 00:42:01.670 separate experience from other humans being human. And so that's 608 00:42:01.710 --> 00:42:07.070 a part of my sense of safety. Um, and I've 609 00:42:07.110 --> 00:42:13.559 been in some not so safe situations as many people have. Right. 610 00:42:14.179 --> 00:42:17.010 Just to restate what you're saying there is I, as 611 00:42:17.070 --> 00:42:23.110 I understand it, is we think we are separate from 612 00:42:23.150 --> 00:42:26.239 the world. We're just like this fretful little ego peering 613 00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:29.480 out at the world through these two eye holes in 614 00:42:29.539 --> 00:42:35.820 our skull. But if we have sight, that is. But 615 00:42:35.860 --> 00:42:39.719 in fact, we are moving through the world and impacting 616 00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:44.489 it and impacted by other people. And so when we 617 00:42:44.610 --> 00:42:49.869 work on our own mind and uproot unwholesome tendencies or 618 00:42:50.469 --> 00:42:54.670 strengthen wholesome ones, well, then that will ripple out inevitably. 619 00:42:55.010 --> 00:42:59.960 It always does. In Buddhism, there's something called leaks. And 620 00:43:00.019 --> 00:43:03.340 whatever goes on in my language, whatever goes on in 621 00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:08.159 our heart and mind, be it wholesome, unwholesome, positive or negative, 622 00:43:08.610 --> 00:43:13.599 leaks out into society. And so how we care for 623 00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:18.019 our own internal life, not in the sense of navel-gazing, 624 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:20.980 but in the sense of healing and transforming so that 625 00:43:21.019 --> 00:43:25.280 our best possible qualities are released into the world, our 626 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:30.190 best possible energies are released, we will still think we 627 00:43:30.230 --> 00:43:34.610 have a planet and then there's us. I mean, that's 628 00:43:34.650 --> 00:43:39.599 that deception of separation again. We are the planet. We 629 00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:45.679 are children of the planet. And that's a powerful insight 630 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:50.519 that can occur in meditation if one practices paying attention 631 00:43:50.579 --> 00:43:54.539 deeply to what one observes, especially in the natural world. 632 00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:56.940 Of course, the whole world is natural, but in the 633 00:43:56.980 --> 00:44:01.440 sense of rivers and mountains and streams and trees and 634 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:04.420 bees and prairie dogs like we have here. 635 00:44:08.050 --> 00:44:10.909 A lot of people right now, just to pick up 636 00:44:12.050 --> 00:44:13.960 on the foregoing, a lot of people right now are 637 00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:18.380 really trying to figure out how can I help? And 638 00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.420 you write about this in some of your recent blog posts, 639 00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:23.320 you know, and no one of us is going to 640 00:44:24.019 --> 00:44:28.860 fix this problem we're seeing. But what I'm hearing from 641 00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:31.389 you is that by taking care of our own minds, 642 00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:35.989 by training our own minds, which is possible, Even though 643 00:44:36.010 --> 00:44:39.329 that may seem small, it actually is a real and 644 00:44:39.349 --> 00:44:41.369 an important thing that we can do right now. 645 00:44:41.829 --> 00:44:45.840 Yes, it's real and important, but only if it's embodied. 646 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:50.579 This is not an intellectual exercise because the embodiment of 647 00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.920 a transformed and changed mind becomes the basis of a 648 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:56.000 transformed and changed system. 649 00:44:57.570 --> 00:44:59.849 And by embodied, you mean like I actually act on 650 00:44:59.889 --> 00:45:02.050 it or I actually feel it south of my head? 651 00:45:02.070 --> 00:45:07.070 Both. It's in your body. It can become second nature. 652 00:45:07.989 --> 00:45:10.730 Kindness can become second nature if it's not your first 653 00:45:10.789 --> 00:45:13.820 nature because you already have all the genealogy to be kind. 654 00:45:14.980 --> 00:45:17.739 But if it's been suppressed and you've been rewarded for 655 00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:23.599 being cruel, you have to unpack your conditioning around cruelty 656 00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:27.760 and whatever you experience from that and begin to have 657 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.239 the new

experience of what is it like to be kind? 658 00:45:31.230 --> 00:45:34.590 Many people have not had that experience, either going one 659 00:45:34.630 --> 00:45:39.130 way or another, let alone between. And kindness for me 660 00:45:39.170 --> 00:45:45.010 is more than politeness, though politeness is great and a 661 00:45:45.670 --> 00:45:48.829 wonderful place to start. I think the other thing that 662 00:45:48.849 --> 00:45:53.409 to me here, if it's not embodied, it won't change anything. 663 00:45:56.130 --> 00:45:58.590 If it's not in our thinking, in our new, I mean, 664 00:45:58.610 --> 00:46:01.719 we have so much to rethink. which I find exciting, 665 00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:06.000 but to reimagine, to remount the slope of thought, as 666 00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:09.019 some philosophers say. So, you know, our way of thinking 667 00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:13.860 about education, people are, I'm on the board of the 668 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:19.039 American School of Bangkok, and I interact with the principals 669 00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:23.570 there from time to time, and education is so very important. 670 00:46:23.590 --> 00:46:26.889 I spent a couple years there working with the school 671 00:46:26.989 --> 00:46:29.409 and the administration and the owners and the parents and 672 00:46:29.429 --> 00:46:34.239 the kids, and We had children from 44 nationalities. And 673 00:46:34.300 --> 00:46:37.539 what struck me the very first week I was there 674 00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:43.360 is none of them thought they were supposed to harm 675 00:46:43.409 --> 00:46:48.829 each other. It was an astounding experience to see all 676 00:46:48.909 --> 00:46:53.789 these children from all these parts of the world casually 677 00:46:53.869 --> 00:46:57.489 and calmly playing, getting along. Of course you get upset. 678 00:46:57.510 --> 00:47:00.250 Of course you get hurt. But there was never this 679 00:47:00.409 --> 00:47:06.510 intention of harm. And that energy of harm or any 680 00:47:06.630 --> 00:47:10.389 other negative energy permeates our bodies. We don't escape stuff 681 00:47:10.429 --> 00:47:12.780 like that. You can walk in a room and have 682 00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:16.760 a feeling of what happened before you got there. Whether 683 00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:19.780 it was whether you wish you had been there earlier 684 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:23.639 or come later, depending on the energy that's still present. 685 00:47:24.099 --> 00:47:27.480 So we must learn to be sensitive to our whole humanity. 686 00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:33.159 or we'll be hijacked by our unregulated nervous system, or 687 00:47:33.179 --> 00:47:38.630 we'll be hijacked by some ideology or any other model 688 00:47:38.690 --> 00:47:43.309 of thought that we don't critique. And therefore, to me, 689 00:47:43.349 --> 00:47:46.159 if we don't critique our thinking, our speech, and our action, 690 00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:50.059 we're not free. We're just living out of conditionings.

691 00:47:52.170 --> 00:47:55.090 I want to go back to economics for a second. You, as, 692 00:47:55.289 --> 00:48:00.820 as referenced work with major corporations on a number of issues, 693 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:06.219 including diversity and inclusion. What is the role of what 694 00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:09.440 we're seeing all these corporations issue statements? Some of them 695 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:13.079 have been criticized for, you know, these statements being either 696 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:17.659 tone deaf or just wrote recitations of, you know, bromides, um, 697 00:48:18.739 --> 00:48:20.429 And of course, you know, some of the statements have 698 00:48:20.449 --> 00:48:22.710 been well received, et cetera, et cetera. But everybody, all 699 00:48:22.730 --> 00:48:25.230 the corporations feel like they need to say something. What, 700 00:48:25.289 --> 00:48:28.110 in your view, do corporations need to do right now? 701 00:48:28.190 --> 00:48:32.760 And can corporations be part of the solution as we 702 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:39.739 think about America's racial karma? I hear a wind chime 703 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:40.340 in the background. 704 00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:44.119 Yeah, it is. It's got a nice breeze coming through 705 00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:48.320 down from the mountain today. Well... That's a complex question. 706 00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:53.019 Let me share a few thoughts. Corporations can either help 707 00:48:53.219 --> 00:49:00.860 or hurt. Any institutional power can help or hurt, contribute 708 00:49:01.010 --> 00:49:04.429 or not contribute to the continuation of America's racial karma. 709 00:49:05.250 --> 00:49:10.550 So choices are made. We make choices. Part of the 710 00:49:10.590 --> 00:49:15.329 dilemma is systems, this is more from Carl Jung after 711 00:49:16.309 --> 00:49:22.840 is distrust of institutions because institutions don't have conscience. And 712 00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:27.900 so I think any corporation who tries to do the 713 00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:31.989 right thing for many people will be suspect because of 714 00:49:32.030 --> 00:49:38.170 past patterns. I think corporations can help profoundly and must help. 715 00:49:39.019 --> 00:49:42.260 And one of the ways I think corporations must help 716 00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:46.960 is demonstrate what you said. I want to see your campus. 717 00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:49.760 I want to see your workforce. I want to see 718 00:49:49.820 --> 00:49:55.170 your board. I want to embody the change you say 719 00:49:55.210 --> 00:49:59.289 you want to see. That, to me, is how corporations 720 00:49:59.329 --> 00:50:03.769 can help. Or any institution can help. Or I can help. 721 00:50:03.889 --> 00:50:07.099 A new family just moved in down there. I could 722 00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:10.789 walk down there and meet them. I mean, so it 723 00:50:10.869 --> 00:50:13.909 doesn't have to be, I'm just saying if it's not embodied, 724 00:50:15.210 --> 00:50:18.889 it won't really, neutral is not for me an option. 725 00:50:22.110 --> 00:50:25.900 Neutral continues the pattern, continues the negative karma. 726 00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:30.900 Is there anything I should have asked, but I failed 727 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:31.300 to ask? 728 00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:42.010 Well, not especially. Okay. I appreciate you for what you 729 00:50:42.030 --> 00:50:42.570 have asked. 730 00:50:46.110 --> 00:50:51.579 I appreciate you for what you have answered. It's been 731 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:54.519 a pleasure to spend some time with you. I just 732 00:50:54.539 --> 00:50:57.280 want to make sure I didn't fail to steer us 733 00:50:57.340 --> 00:51:00.260 in a direction that you were thinking that might be 734 00:51:00.389 --> 00:51:00.929 useful to go. 735 00:51:01.969 --> 00:51:06.429 No, that was great. But part of my practice as 736 00:51:06.570 --> 00:51:09.190 a Dharma teacher is whenever I have Q & A 737 00:51:10.389 --> 00:51:15.170 question and answers. I just try to be open. Yeah. 738 00:51:16.409 --> 00:51:20.659 Can you, before we close, I have a suspicion that 739 00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.159 people having listened to you for a while will want 740 00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:25.179 to be able to learn more about you. Can you 741 00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:29.579 tell us where we can, you know, learn more about 742 00:51:29.860 --> 00:51:33.079 you and from you, uh, in terms of on the 743 00:51:33.139 --> 00:51:36.210 internet books, you've written books, you're, you're about to publish, 744 00:51:36.250 --> 00:51:36.909 et cetera, et cetera. 745 00:51:36.949 --> 00:51:44.909 Okay. The presale on now, America's Racial Karma, and publisher 746 00:51:45.250 --> 00:51:50.590 is Parallax Press in Berkeley, in cooperation with some other 747 00:51:50.929 --> 00:51:57.030 publishing enterprises. I and my wonderful team of people can 748 00:51:57.090 --> 00:52:05.590 be reached at www.thelotusinstitute.org. They'll take you to our website, 749 00:52:05.869 --> 00:52:11.280 and there's Videos and exercises and an online course for managing, 750 00:52:12.579 --> 00:52:15.599 learning how to work with trauma at the first level 751 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:19.940 and understanding body systems and mindfulness of the body is 752 00:52:20.019 --> 00:52:23.059 also there. It's called the Earthgate. It might be very 753 00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:24.050 helpful for some people. 754 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:27.260 And the blog that we keep referencing, that's there too? 755 00:52:27.449 --> 00:52:32.329 Yes. Great. And I just had my operations director three 756 00:52:32.369 --> 00:52:34.530 weeks ago suggest I do a blog. I've never done 757 00:52:34.610 --> 00:52:37.769 one before. So it's like, okay. I try to follow 758 00:52:37.809 --> 00:52:41.739 people's instructions as much as I can because they're usually wise. 759 00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:43.199 Great job, Larry. 760 00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:46.519 Thank you. Thank you, Dan. You had some great reflective questions. 761 00:52:46.739 --> 00:52:51.369 Thank you. I could tell you prepared. Thank you. Be well. 762 00:52:51.869 --> 00:52:53.820 You too. And of course.... 763 00:53:15.670 --> 00:53:17.980 Hearty shout out to my guys from ABC News, Ryan 764 00:53:18.019 --> 00:53:21.630 Kessler and Josh Kohan. We'll see you all on Friday 765 00:53:21.670 --> 00:53:24.030 for a bonus. And then we'll be back on Monday 766 00:53:24.050 --> 00:53:25.219 with another fresh episode.