Fullständig transkription av Making & Breaking Points with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the weekly show podcast. 45 00:02:56.110 --> 00:02:59.009 My name is Jon Stewart. The final episode of the summer. 46 00:02:59.930 --> 00:03:02.330 We will be gone for the rest of August and 47 00:03:02.349 --> 00:03:07.340 I think coming back in early September. So been a 48 00:03:07.379 --> 00:03:11.500 delightful year. Obviously, tonight, I think, is the Wisconsin primary. 49 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:13.639 We don't know what's going to happen. We'll probably discuss 50 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:15.500 it during the episode, even though we have no idea 51 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.969 what it's going to be. And then, you know, we'll 52 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.050 talk about the other things. It's the dog days of summer. 53 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:25.699 There's not a whole lot going on right now. It's 54 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.879 a little bit quiet. Senate is on recess. The House 55 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.689 on recess. I am going to go away. I've got 56 00:03:32.729 --> 00:03:36.729 a lovely, like a snorkel vacation planned in this beautiful 57 00:03:36.849 --> 00:03:40.990 crystal clear. It's, I probably am not pronouncing this right. Hormuz. 58 00:03:41.770 --> 00:03:47.580 Straight of Hormuz. Or we're going to say the, that's 59 00:03:47.620 --> 00:03:50.740 never going to fucking end. But we got a great 60 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.979 show for today. I wanted to bring on a couple 61 00:03:54.020 --> 00:03:57.120 of folks that I feel like have been doing the 62 00:03:57.189 --> 00:04:01.150 kind of, I'm on the left, I'm on the right discussion. 63 00:04:01.169 --> 00:04:02.830 I feel like they do it in a way that 64 00:04:02.889 --> 00:04:05.569 engenders good faith. And so I wanted to highlight them 65 00:04:06.349 --> 00:04:09.530 on today's program. So let me get to them right now. 66 00:04:09.610 --> 00:04:13.889 We'll discuss all things left, right, populist, and otherwise. Please 67 00:04:13.930 --> 00:04:21.399 welcome to the program, the hosts of Breaking Points. Ladies 68 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:24.550 and gentlemen, here we are, the final weekly show podcast 69 00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:28.329 before summer break. And we have the co-hosts of Breaking Points, 70 00:04:28.389 --> 00:04:30.850 Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty are joining us today 71 00:04:31.209 --> 00:04:34.490 to discuss all that is happening in the world. First 72 00:04:34.529 --> 00:04:36.389 of all, welcome, Crystal. Welcome, Sagar. 73 00:04:36.629 --> 00:04:37.209 Thanks for having us. 74 00:04:37.449 --> 00:04:38.680 Thank you so much for having us, John. 75 00:04:39.459 --> 00:04:44.959 I want to start by saying I don't feel comfortable 76 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:48.019 seeing you two in separate spaces. Okay. 77 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.079 We had a debate about that actually, but it just 78 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.319 was a little bit technically easier this way. So I'm 79 00:04:54.339 --> 00:04:56.399 sorry that we made you uncomfortable. 80 00:04:56.779 --> 00:04:58.370 And same for you to see you at home in 81 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:00.790 a t-shirt. It's, it's throwing me off from my childhood. 82 00:05:01.329 --> 00:05:04.089 Oh, dear God. If only you knew sucker, how painful 83 00:05:04.110 --> 00:05:07.089 it was for me to put on the suit for my, 84 00:05:07.449 --> 00:05:10.550 for my one 20 minutes a day and all that. 85 00:05:10.569 --> 00:05:12.529 That's actually why I left the show in 2015. I 86 00:05:12.569 --> 00:05:15.500 just decided, Hey man, couldn't take that anymore. I'm done 87 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:20.139 with the button down. This is over. Uh, but we're 88 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:24.240 delighted that you're both here. And I want to ask 89 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:30.779 you because you're both, you're such an interesting dynamic. As 90 00:05:30.819 --> 00:05:35.139 you guys have worked together, do you find that your 91 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.379 political opinions are starting to converge? Because I think the 92 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:42.720 point of it is you sort of had a guy 93 00:05:42.740 --> 00:05:45.310 a little bit on the right, you know, Sagar, you'd 94 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.209 worked at Daily Caller, you'd done some things, Crystal, more 95 00:05:48.250 --> 00:05:49.550 on the left, but as I listen to you guys, 96 00:05:49.709 --> 00:05:54.089 I find there is a great deal, not just of respect, 97 00:05:54.870 --> 00:06:01.569 but convergence. And I can't think of another show where 98 00:06:01.829 --> 00:06:04.509 sort of the idea is to get those contrasting viewpoints 99 00:06:04.910 --> 00:06:08.370 that has had that. Is that how you're experiencing it? 100 00:06:09.550 --> 00:06:12.410 I would say it depends very much on the moment 101 00:06:12.449 --> 00:06:15.209 of the news cycle. So if you had been watching 102 00:06:15.310 --> 00:06:19.860 us regularly leading up to Trump's victory or after Trump's 103 00:06:19.899 --> 00:06:23.199 victory when we were talking about

immigration and mass deportation 104 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:25.500 and Seacott or even today we had a big debate 105 00:06:25.540 --> 00:06:28.959 about like woke 1.0. You might get a different impression. 106 00:06:29.379 --> 00:06:32.269 But the concept of the show, you know, from the beginning, 107 00:06:32.350 --> 00:06:35.750 even predating the current iteration of Breaking Points was, OK, 108 00:06:35.769 --> 00:06:39.220 if we got the best faith interpretation of the populist 109 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.920 right in conversation with the populist left, what would that 110 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:44.819 look like? And my theory is that there would be 111 00:06:45.139 --> 00:06:48.160 different overlap than you might find on sort of the 112 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.500 traditional like crossfire to name a throwback. 113 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:53.579 Oh, I just got it. Something just. 114 00:06:53.930 --> 00:06:56.889 The typical crossfire sort of cable news dynamic. And so 115 00:06:56.930 --> 00:06:58.750 I think that's what you're picking up on. And certainly 116 00:06:58.810 --> 00:07:01.990 on the Iran war, on changing the relationship with Israel, 117 00:07:03.230 --> 00:07:05.589 on economic issues, there is a lot of overlap there. 118 00:07:05.930 --> 00:07:08.430 I think the thing you said, Crystal, that resonates the 119 00:07:08.470 --> 00:07:10.709 most with me is best faith. 120 00:07:10.970 --> 00:07:11.110 Mm-hmm. 121 00:07:11.449 --> 00:07:13.829 Good faith. I think, and Sagar, maybe that's what I'm 122 00:07:14.069 --> 00:07:16.689 thinking of. It might not be a convergence of opinion. 123 00:07:17.069 --> 00:07:19.970 It's that it's a good faith discussion. Yeah. 124 00:07:20.029 --> 00:07:21.750 I mean, one of the things that we both really 125 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.420 built our show around is like a rejection of cable 126 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.699 news and just not only the format, but the very 127 00:07:27.779 --> 00:07:30.160 way in which they want to increase division. And we 128 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:33.379 have plenty of division, which we showcase very openly and honestly, 129 00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:35.230 as you just pointed out, Crystal, about our woke one 130 00:07:36.100 --> 00:07:38.639 But in it, there was a good faith. I mean, 131 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:40.519 Crystal heard me out and I heard her out and 132 00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:43.670 we gave our counterpoints and there was no like yelling 133 00:07:43.730 --> 00:07:46.610 or screaming at each other. I also whenever you're talking 134 00:07:46.649 --> 00:07:49.569 about convergence, I think that one of the things that 135 00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:53.259 really comes with respect is understanding. And so we've been 136 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:54.839 doing this, you know, not just this show, but our 137 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:56.959 previous iteration of the show for almost like seven or 138 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:57.490 eight years now. 139 00:07:57.949 --> 00:08:00.319 What was that one, the rising? What was the first one? 140 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:01.120 It was rising. 141 00:08:01.149 --> 00:08:01.939 That's it, rising, yeah. 142 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:04.139 And one of the things that comes with that is 143 00:08:04.180 --> 00:08:07.680 you come to understand very deeply where other people are 144 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.199 coming from. And it's really useful because it helps not 145 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.819 only in your interactions politically, but like even in your 146 00:08:13.980 --> 00:08:16.740 everyday life. Like when you hear somebody say something, you 147 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:18.779 can understand where previously it would have been like, what 148 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.879 an idiot. You're like, okay, I see how you got 149 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.000 to that conclusion because of the information you took in 150 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.250 or your worldview is just fundamentally really different. than my worldview. 151 00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:30.430 And there's a level of acceptance with that. One of 152 00:08:30.470 --> 00:08:32.750 the best compliments that we both get, you know, if 153 00:08:32.789 --> 00:08:35.009 we're in public or something is like, you really helped 154 00:08:35.029 --> 00:08:37.509 my relationship with my dad. You know, you just helped 155 00:08:37.529 --> 00:08:40.980 me understand like where my dad was coming from whenever 156 00:08:41.019 --> 00:08:43.340 he would rant about X, Y, and Z. Like I 157 00:08:43.460 --> 00:08:45.679 understood why, and then, or vice versa, you know, like 158 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:47.879 help my relationship with my kid and like my kids 159 00:08:47.899 --> 00:08:50.879 really into DSA. And like, I don't understand what that is. 160 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.019 But when I hear crystal talk about it, it's like, okay, 161 00:08:53.179 --> 00:08:56.220 like I, I kind of start to make sense to me. 162 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.419 And so, In that way, it's really edifying and part 163 00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:01.159 of the reason why I love doing the show. 164 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.519 As you've come together, and now it's been, as you said, 165 00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:08.360 seven years, does it help you also identify the bad 166 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:15.779 faith actors in our political and media hellscape? Has there 167 00:09:15.820 --> 00:09:19.320 been a way for you to discern, oh, these people 168 00:09:19.419 --> 00:09:22.970 are performative, these people are bad faith, and do you 169 00:09:23.889 --> 00:09:26.330 Do you avoid that now, avoid those folks, or do 170 00:09:26.389 --> 00:09:27.950 you expose? both. 171 00:09:28.070 --> 00:09:28.590 It's a mix. 172 00:09:28.669 --> 00:09:28.990 Yeah. 173 00:09:29.070 --> 00:09:31.710 I mean, definitely that is certainly the case. And look, 174 00:09:31.889 --> 00:09:35.580 I have become less tolerant of a lot of pundits 175 00:09:35.620 -->

00:09:39.039 on the right. There are very few who are actually 176 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:40.840 on the right that I would work with at this point, 177 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.120 because I just think there's so much lies and propaganda 178 00:09:43.139 --> 00:09:45.860 there that to deal with that on a daily basis 179 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.039 would not be productive. You know, if you're doing a 180 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.139 debate and you're having an engagement, you're trying to expose, 181 00:09:51.179 --> 00:09:54.659 that's one thing. But to work together with someone every day, 182 00:09:54.740 --> 00:09:58.639 as you know, is an entirely different relationship. So, for example, 183 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:00.840 in the wake of your John Fetterman interview, I don't 184 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:02.480 think that is someone I could work with every day. 185 00:10:02.500 --> 00:10:05.460 I'm not sure John Fetterman is working with John Fetterman 186 00:10:05.500 --> 00:10:05.879 every day. 187 00:10:05.940 --> 00:10:08.340 Just bad faith arguments, a lack of an ability to 188 00:10:08.379 --> 00:10:11.090 really even grapple with the questions that you're asking, etc. 189 00:10:11.139 --> 00:10:11.669 Yeah. 190 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:14.250 But what has made it work with Sager is we've 191 00:10:14.289 --> 00:10:18.850 had some very heated debates, very hot and over issues 192 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:21.289 that we both care a lot about and I think 193 00:10:21.330 --> 00:10:24.809 are very consequential. What makes it work over the long 194 00:10:24.870 --> 00:10:28.070 term is that we're both capable of saying, you know what, 195 00:10:28.090 --> 00:10:29.370 I got it wrong there. You were right. 196 00:10:29.409 --> 00:10:30.049 You had a point. 197 00:10:30.450 --> 00:10:32.269 And I think over the long term, that's part of 198 00:10:32.309 --> 00:10:34.399 what is built, the trust that enables it. 199 00:10:34.730 --> 00:10:37.929 I totally agree. And like, you know, vice versa, I think, 200 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:39.460 you know, especially at the height of a lot of 201 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.490 Pretty crazy moments, 2020 and others. There are not a 202 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.049 lot of people I think who I could have stomached. 203 00:10:46.289 --> 00:10:48.029 But yeah, I mean, as Crystal said, it can get 204 00:10:48.070 --> 00:10:50.169 hot and that's fine. I actually think it's healthy. 205 00:10:50.210 --> 00:10:50.710 It's normal. 206 00:10:51.129 --> 00:10:53.710 It's reflective of literally the nature of the country. We're 207 00:10:53.730 --> 00:10:56.269 literally living through one of the most tumultuous times, I think, 208 00:10:56.370 --> 00:10:58.419 in modern American history. It's probably akin to the 1960s. 209 00:10:59.549 --> 00:11:00.929 in a lot of different ways. Or actually, maybe the 210 00:11:00.950 --> 00:11:02.710 70s is a better comparison. 211 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:05.460 Here's what's sad. I

think I'm the only one who's 212 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:07.720 lived through both of those. So if you have any. 213 00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:09.879 Questions- That's true. I've only read about it, John. 214 00:11:10.340 --> 00:11:13.340 I am happy. I'm happy to tell you about it. Right. 215 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:15.399 But I mean, John, since you were there, you know 216 00:11:15.580 --> 00:11:19.549 that that was a moment of very actually limited public debate. 217 00:11:19.870 --> 00:11:21.950 And in my opinion, one of the reasons why things 218 00:11:22.009 --> 00:11:25.250 went really wrong was because of the convergence of the 219 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.970 mass media era. For me, this is honestly surreal to 220 00:11:27.990 --> 00:11:30.570 be able to talk to you because you were so 221 00:11:30.710 --> 00:11:35.330 instrumental for me as a kid who is growing up 222 00:11:35.389 --> 00:11:39.090 in Bush country, hearing these lies about the Iraq war. 223 00:11:39.470 --> 00:11:42.600 There is only one place that I could go to 224 00:11:42.929 --> 00:11:46.419 to expose this level of hysteria and nonsense, which I 225 00:11:46.460 --> 00:11:50.840 just hear propagated all day long on all three And 226 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.679 that was at a time of total ubiquity in mass media, 227 00:11:53.710 --> 00:11:55.210 part of the reason that we got into the war 228 00:11:55.509 --> 00:11:57.889 that we did. And it went as long as we did. 229 00:11:58.009 --> 00:12:00.830 I think that the Iran war is, look, it's a disaster, 230 00:12:01.049 --> 00:12:03.070 but it is a hopeful story in that the poll 231 00:12:03.129 --> 00:12:06.759 numbers went south immediately. A huge amount of the American 232 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:10.860 public is getting their information back. sources or different from 233 00:12:10.899 --> 00:12:13.899 sources like us, many others who are out there who 234 00:12:13.940 --> 00:12:16.720 are able to expose the absolute holes in all of 235 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:19.379 the propaganda that the Pentagon or the White House is 236 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.840 able to put out. And so, look, it's a disaster 237 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.179 that we're in this, but it's actually a hopeful story 238 00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:27.120 that the public turned on it almost immediately. And so 239 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:29.220 that we didn't have that edifice to prop it up 240 00:12:29.259 --> 00:12:30.080 that we did at that time. 241 00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:32.259 Well, let me ask you a question because it brings 242 00:12:32.350 --> 00:12:35.269 up sort of the incentives of those systems that created that. 243 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:37.590 Because I think you're You make a nice point about 244 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:40.730 the 60s and 70s being tumultuous in that same way. 245 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:46.000 I think the Iran war has gone south in some 246 00:12:46.029 --> 00:12:51.080 ways because this administration doesn't respect us enough to lie 247 00:12:51.100 --> 00:12:54.700 to us. They kind of don't give a shit what 248 00:12:54.759 --> 00:13:00.039 we think. And in the 60s and 70s, the lies 249 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.480 were generally, you know, media has found a way, the 250 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:12.580 incentives of it. to get weaponized. Bad faith actors weaponize it, right? 251 00:13:13.899 --> 00:13:16.860 The ubiquity of cable news was at first, and TV 252 00:13:16.899 --> 00:13:21.759 in general, in the 60s and 70s, politicians weren't quite 253 00:13:21.820 --> 00:13:24.250 sure what to do with TV. And you remember the 254 00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:28.429 debate between Kennedy and Nixon. And Kennedy went out there 255 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:30.830 and he understood that television is a visual medium and 256 00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:33.350 Nixon was like, I don't need makeup, I look great. 257 00:13:35.019 --> 00:13:39.440 And he got his ass kicked on the TV side. 258 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:41.259 But if you listen to it on the radio, people 259 00:13:41.299 --> 00:13:45.879 thought Nixon won. Do you think it's, in some respects, 260 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:52.120 the media has just, politics has figured out how to 261 00:13:52.220 --> 00:13:57.000 weaponize media. Is that fair to say? Like you just 262 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.769 talked about all these bad faith actors, right? They exist 263 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:04.429 as part of a political ecosystem. As a way of, 264 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:07.429 you know, Roger Ailes very famously said, I want to 265 00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:11.389 create something so that what happened to Nixon could never 266 00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:16.230 happen to another Republican president. You know, sometimes we separate 267 00:14:16.350 --> 00:14:20.210 media and politics. But isn't it true that in a 268 00:14:20.330 --> 00:14:23.789 lot of ways, there's a symbiosis? A lot of it's 269 00:14:23.830 --> 00:14:28.110 been co-opted by politics. And I'm curious what you think 270 00:14:28.149 --> 00:14:29.490 of that. And we can talk a little bit about 271 00:14:29.529 --> 00:14:31.330 breaking down those ecosystems. Yeah. 272 00:14:31.850 --> 00:14:33.850 I mean, I think it's a double edged sword on 273 00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:37.610 the one hand. Absolutely. And the amount of propaganda, the 274 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:40.230 amount of lies, you know, you go on Twitter now 275 00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:43.220 X and there's all these accounts that are just AI 276 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.779 slop accounts feeding all kinds of nonsense. It makes it 277 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:48.659 very difficult actually to sort out what's happening in the war, 278 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.720 not to mention there's a total war. censorship lockdown on 279 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.720 the U.S. as part of what is happening in the region. 280 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:56.919 On the flip side of it, though, there's also a 281 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.620

hopeful story there because in its best incarnation, you know, 282 00:14:59.659 --> 00:15:01.830 they haven't been able to cover up the horrors and genocide. 283 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:04.590 People watch that in 4K themselves and they took their 284 00:15:04.710 --> 00:15:07.269 own moral opinion of what was happening there and it 285 00:15:07.350 --> 00:15:11.049 went directly against what the bipartisan elite consensus had been 286 00:15:11.129 --> 00:15:13.210 for years and years. I think you're right that it's 287 00:15:13.450 --> 00:15:16.139 insulting that they didn't even bother to lie to us 288 00:15:16.179 --> 00:15:19.019 this time before the war. I think it also reflects 289 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.100 the fact that Donald Trump doesn't feel that he needs 290 00:15:21.139 --> 00:15:24.159 to go through the mechanisms of democracy. We just have 291 00:15:24.179 --> 00:15:27.570 to swallow whatever insanity he's going to do But I 292 00:15:27.610 --> 00:15:29.889 also think the fact that you have so many dissenting 293 00:15:29.950 --> 00:15:34.190 voices in new media that were critical from the beginning 294 00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:37.350 and able to expose the very thin level of propaganda 295 00:15:37.649 --> 00:15:39.450 that had been fed to us has also been a 296 00:15:39.470 --> 00:15:42.960 positive point. Now, I get concerned because there are also– 297 00:15:43.389 --> 00:15:46.529 Legacy media has its advantages. There was a real tradition 298 00:15:46.590 --> 00:15:51.620 and a firewall between opinion and the journalist part and 299 00:15:51.659 --> 00:15:54.419 the advertising, and those walls fall down in new media. 300 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:56.620 But overall, I think when you look at those two 301 00:15:56.659 --> 00:16:00.460 stories in particular, you can see that it has helped 302 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:06.470 to create a better atmosphere for small-D democratic understanding of 303 00:16:06.570 --> 00:16:08.940 what these wars and what this genocide actually are. 304 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.080 I think that's a really important point. It's a double-edged sword, 305 00:16:12.100 --> 00:16:14.549 as Crystal said. I compare it to the invention of 306 00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:17.669 the printing press. I mean, that's how the internet— seriously, that's 307 00:16:17.690 --> 00:16:33.139 what the internet— But of course, nobody would say, well, yeah, 308 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:34.990 the invention of the printing press was bad. It was 309 00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:37.830 just it unleashed a new medium of debate. Much of 310 00:16:37.889 --> 00:16:41.509 it was propaganda, actually pornography, one of the original inventions 311 00:16:41.629 --> 00:16:44.840 of the printing press of mass distribution, just like the Internet. 312 00:16:45.139 --> 00:16:47.779 But what it demonstrated, I think, on a long enough 313 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:50.549 timeline was a more. informed public. And that's the thing. 314 00:16:50.590 --> 00:16:53.129 We're working things out, as Crystal said. And this is 315 00:16:53.169 --> 00:16:55.330 where I think all of us can be upfront and honest. 316 00:16:55.490 --> 00:16:57.990 We are in a difficult position because we are people 317 00:16:58.049 --> 00:17:00.090 who do the news, but Crystal and I are also 318 00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:04.430 business owners. We co-own our company, but we set rules 319 00:17:04.569 --> 00:17:07.950 at the very beginning. We do not read ads, period, 320 00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:10.769 because we believe that if we did so, it could 321 00:17:10.789 --> 00:17:13.990 potentially compromise things in the future. Now, we know that 322 00:17:14.009 --> 00:17:18.519 we have sacrificed literally like multiple zeros of income. However, 323 00:17:18.579 --> 00:17:22.230 what we've decided instead was to build a more anti-fragile business. 324 00:17:22.569 --> 00:17:25.430 For example, like we have a premium subscription program. We 325 00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:27.970 have YouTube revenue. You know, we have like dynamic ads, 326 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:30.079 which are not ads that we read, which we have 327 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.670 no negotiation with. or interesting, but it took a level 328 00:17:32.710 --> 00:17:36.190 of intentionality. However, though, there's no reason that we had 329 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:38.910 to do that. If we wanted to read Manscaped. 330 00:17:38.529 --> 00:17:40.029 As- And most people are not doing that. 331 00:17:40.049 --> 00:17:40.210 Exactly. 332 00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:41.509 And are not going to do that. Yeah. 333 00:17:41.549 --> 00:17:43.230 And most people are not doing that and are much 334 00:17:43.289 --> 00:17:46.069 richer than us as a result. But we believe in 335 00:17:46.089 --> 00:17:46.730 the long. 336 00:17:46.509 --> 00:17:49.069 Run it'll work out. You're starting to make me sweat, 337 00:17:49.589 --> 00:17:53.309 and it's why I look to Quince to create a 338 00:17:53.349 --> 00:18:04.119 new wardrobe. Hey, folks, I know you're trying to figure 339 00:18:04.150 --> 00:18:06.950 out ways to skip through these little ad reads here. 340 00:18:07.299 --> 00:18:09.640 I get that. I know. I know what you're doing. 341 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:12.140 I know you're looking into that Spotify thing. Yeah, listen, 342 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:16.549 I'm not blind, you bastards. And to be honest with you, 343 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.299 I'm not crazy about reading them in the first place, generally, 344 00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:23.380 except for this one, Ground News. You know, I'm always 345 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.180 going to go to bat for the Ground News. Ground News, 346 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.759 because it's, I hate the news. I hate what it's 347 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.180 doing to me emotionally. I hate that you don't really 348 00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:36.420 know where the information is coming from. Sometimes you don't 349 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:40.420 know how

it's being manipulated and it adds to the 350 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.950 creeping fog of sadness that grows. But I have to 351 00:18:43.990 --> 00:18:45.630 keep up. I have to understand what's going on in 352 00:18:45.650 --> 00:18:49.150 the world. And that's why Ground News, they've got a website. 353 00:18:49.190 --> 00:18:51.369 It's an app. You can see how different news outlets 354 00:18:51.569 --> 00:18:55.849 will frame the same story. They've got a blind spot 355 00:18:56.009 --> 00:19:00.119 feed so you can challenge yourself about your news consumption. 356 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.359 To get the same unlimited access to the Vantage subscription, 357 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:08.420 go to groundnews.com slash Stuart and subscribe to get 40% off. 358 00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:12.099 Discount only available for a limited time. That's groundnews.com slash 359 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:20.009 Stuart or scan the QR code on screen. But Sagar, 360 00:19:20.029 --> 00:19:24.029 so this is really interesting to me because we're talking 361 00:19:24.089 --> 00:19:28.329 about media independence. And when you think of independence, I 362 00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:31.119 think At large, you think of it as media independence 363 00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:36.720 from corporate interest. We're not owned by Universal or GE 364 00:19:36.809 --> 00:19:40.750 or any of these things. But independence is also, are 365 00:19:40.789 --> 00:19:46.930 you independent from a political motivation? Yes. That's another form 366 00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:48.930 of independence. And a lot of people, I think, are 367 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:53.009 captured politically. by that. But the third avenue of independence, 368 00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:57.259 and I wonder about this for you, is what are 369 00:19:57.299 --> 00:20:01.779 your incentives to the audience? You know, when you say 370 00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:05.339 we have a subscription model and all that, and do 371 00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:08.579 the incentives of, look, we all know in an attention economy, 372 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:14.880 What sells the most is probably outrage, anger, and those things. 373 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.140 So how do you and your model avoid being captured 374 00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:24.819 by the rage of the townspeople? How do you avoid 375 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:26.339 pitchforks and torches? 376 00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:29.769 Well, that's why we're really blessed. Honestly, it's a right-left show. 377 00:20:30.250 --> 00:20:33.089 So at any given time, a decent portion of the 378 00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:37.140 audience is mad. So that's actually built into... It works well. 379 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:38.400 It works really well. 380 00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:40.460 We're going to be hated no matter what by some portion. 381 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:43.480 We are very often hated by our own pain. We 382 00:20:43.509 --> 00:20:46.329 might have one of the most ignominious honors of being 383 00:20:46.450

--> 00:20:48.990 often hated by the people who pay us. But that's 384 00:20:49.049 --> 00:20:52.109 built in, as I said. So at various different times, 385 00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:55.109 we've gone through these types of events before. People are 386 00:20:55.150 --> 00:20:57.349 mad that you said X, Y, or Z. But because 387 00:20:57.390 --> 00:21:01.089 of our political independence and the right-left kind of dynamic 388 00:21:01.109 --> 00:21:04.049 that is baked in to the heart of the program... 389 00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:06.440 It means that there are always new people who also 390 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.170 show up. That's one of the things where a lot 391 00:21:09.190 --> 00:21:11.009 of the– and you actually can see this. There's a 392 00:21:11.049 --> 00:21:13.710 lot of articles about MAGA media and how it's collapsing. 393 00:21:14.190 --> 00:21:17.670 As enthusiasm in MAGA and the project with Donald Trump, 394 00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:20.559 especially with younger men, starts to go down, people who 395 00:21:20.619 --> 00:21:24.059 went all in on just Trump alone or on right-wing media. 396 00:21:24.369 --> 00:21:27.769 so-called media, are seeing a dramatic reduction in their overall 397 00:21:27.809 --> 00:21:30.309 revenue and views, because that's just not really what people 398 00:21:30.650 --> 00:21:32.589 want to hear right now. That is just not something 399 00:21:32.630 --> 00:21:35.089 that could ever happen to us, because Crystal would always 400 00:21:35.150 --> 00:21:38.039 represent a side of somebody who's critical of MAGA, right? 401 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.200 I mean, even I am, obviously, as well, but vice versa, 402 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.519 let's say whenever Joe Biden was president. And so we're 403 00:21:44.619 --> 00:21:48.059 very lucky, honestly, in the way that we designed everything. 404 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.970 But what you're laying out is a very real problem, 405 00:21:51.049 --> 00:21:54.450 and it explains grifterism, which is basically people who have 406 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:58.930 to continue it going, manufacture and create new type of 407 00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:02.930 controversies purely for an economic incentive, which isn't enough of 408 00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:04.009 a cancer that we have today. 409 00:22:04.369 --> 00:22:04.609 Yeah. 410 00:22:04.670 --> 00:22:07.170 I mean, audience capture is very real. You can kind of, 411 00:22:07.210 --> 00:22:09.519 if you're watching channels closely, you can tell who's just 412 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:11.880 catering to their audience and what they think, you know, 413 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:16.099 an algorithm wants them to produce. But I also want 414 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:18.619 to say with regard to the fury and the pitchforks, 415 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.980 like I think people have good reason to be furious 416 00:22:21.019 --> 00:22:24.130 right now. I think both on an economic level, we've 417 00:22:24.150 --> 00:22:26.569 been thrust into this war that basically no one wanted, 418 00:22:26.609 --> 00:22:29.410 that is devastating for the global economy. It's first and 419 00:22:29.450 --> 00:22:34.119 foremost devastating for Iranians and Iranian civilians. We have had 420 00:22:34.130 --> 00:22:37.299 our taxpayer dollars used to fund a genocide that, again, 421 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.880 the public has vociferously turned against. And we have a 422 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.240 system that is rigged by an oligarch class. So I 423 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:47.059 think talking about those things, the way that the AI 424 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:51.799 oligarchs literally want to take everyone's jobs... Yeah, people should 425 00:22:51.819 --> 00:22:55.119 get angry about that. Those are things that should infuriate you. 426 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.440 And so we don't shy away from that. You know, 427 00:22:57.460 --> 00:22:59.670 I think to be informed right now is to be 428 00:22:59.809 --> 00:23:01.049 angry and furious about the. 429 00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:01.710 State of affairs. 430 00:23:02.430 --> 00:23:05.250 Let me ask you, because it's, you know, it's such 431 00:23:05.289 --> 00:23:07.950 an interesting thing to point out how many real things 432 00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:12.029 there are that can shock the conscience of people. And yet, 433 00:23:13.029 --> 00:23:15.750 I think if I'm being fair about where the real 434 00:23:15.970 --> 00:23:18.720 energy of the debate is right now, It's whether or 435 00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:22.319 not Ennis Cantor is going to get drafted into the WNBA. 436 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:28.299 Like the real outrage in this country and culture doesn't 437 00:23:28.339 --> 00:23:34.930 seem to be about those very real points you just articulated, Kristen. 438 00:23:34.970 --> 00:23:37.109 And to me, Sagar may have a different take on this, 439 00:23:37.190 --> 00:23:39.430 but to me, it's very obvious what's going on here. 440 00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:43.650 Trump's approval is in the toilet. His war is a disaster. 441 00:23:43.670 --> 00:23:47.579 The economic numbers are trashed. People are furious. 442 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:51.079 I think it's the greatest economy this country's ever had. 443 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:52.039 I forgot about that. 444 00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:57.029 Yes. According to Fox News. Absolutely. And Republicans are facing 445 00:23:57.309 --> 00:24:00.930 what is likely to be a landslide defeat in the midterms. 446 00:24:01.309 --> 00:24:02.990 So what are they doing? They're going back to the 447 00:24:03.029 --> 00:24:06.609 culture war bag of tricks. Here's a shiny object. that 448 00:24:06.670 --> 00:24:09.210 I can tangle over at Fox News to get our 449 00:24:09.349 --> 00:24:11.950 own base back in line. But I actually don't think 450 00:24:11.990 --> 00:24:15.690 that that's what's driving, for example, the electoral results that 451 00:24:15.710 --> 00:24:18.319 we're seeing in Democratic primaries

across the country and likely 452 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:20.579 to see in the general election in the fall. There, 453 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.980 to me, the number one issue is very likely the economy, 454 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.059 but it's also horror at a foreign policy that is 455 00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:28.140 both expensive and deeply immoral. 456 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.599 Yeah, John, I would push back a bit. I agree 457 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:32.079 with you. 458 00:24:32.380 --> 00:24:33.420 What? How dare you, sir? 459 00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:37.849 Well, I just think it's reflective maybe of a cable 460 00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:41.349 news bias, because you're right. I believe the WNBA was 461 00:24:41.390 --> 00:24:46.210 the second most mentioned topic on Fox News this week. 462 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.380 And that's probably true of the 65 plus crowd, if 463 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.759 I were to go and ask them. However, the segments 464 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.839 that perform best on our channel are things about the 465 00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:01.170 housing crisis, are about flock cameras. data centers, AI displacement 466 00:25:01.250 --> 00:25:04.609 and job loss, foreign policy. I mean, I never thought 467 00:25:04.670 --> 00:25:06.839 I would have my dream job of being able to 468 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:09.779 speak to guys like Professor John Mearsheimer, who was my 469 00:25:09.859 --> 00:25:12.700 literal idol, for over like an hour and a half 470 00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:15.700 and have him describe like great power politics and the 471 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:19.359 Iran war and watch millions of people want to engage 472 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:23.450 with that type of content. And so I do think like, look, 473 00:25:23.630 --> 00:25:26.910 are we amusing ourselves to death? Empirically, yes. I mean, 474 00:25:27.009 --> 00:25:29.529 not just in terms of sports, but with gambling and 475 00:25:29.549 --> 00:25:31.930 many of the other vices which are exploding in our 476 00:25:31.970 --> 00:25:35.369 current society. However, what we always also point out on 477 00:25:35.410 --> 00:25:39.730 the show, that is derivative of real problems like housing, 478 00:25:40.130 --> 00:25:42.809 which is the one I would say we see the 479 00:25:42.990 --> 00:25:46.130 most consistent rage in terms of not just our audience, 480 00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:51.069 but in our demographic. And it is downstream of so 481 00:25:51.109 --> 00:25:54.769 many of the other problems that we face as a society. 482 00:25:54.869 --> 00:25:56.269 And so- Can I also- Yeah, go ahead. 483 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.599 Can I also just say, John, that I think, too, 484 00:25:59.259 --> 00:26:01.039 the revelation– this will feel like a bit of a 485 00:26:01.059 --> 00:26:04.069 left turn– but the revelations in the Epstein files of 486 00:26:04.109 --> 00:26:07.750 the way that this powerful elite actually has this incredible 487 00:26:07.869 --> 00:26:11.309 class solidarity and the way that they operate– I think 488 00:26:11.369 --> 00:26:14.609 it's blown some of the lid off of this idea that, 489 00:26:14.650 --> 00:26:16.910 you know, what we should really be focused on is 490 00:26:17.349 --> 00:26:21.190 trans people or these culture war debates because we've been 491 00:26:21.230 --> 00:26:24.529 able to see the way the powerful actually work in 492 00:26:24.549 --> 00:26:27.450 the world and the view that they have of the 493 00:26:27.529 --> 00:26:30.069 rest of us. And so I think that that has 494 00:26:30.109 --> 00:26:33.319 been a very educational and illuminating experience for people as 495 00:26:33.390 --> 00:26:36.119 well as they process some of these like new red 496 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:38.359 meat culture war debates that are thrown into the mix. 497 00:26:39.210 --> 00:26:41.089 Yeah. It's just hard to imagine, you know, when we 498 00:26:41.130 --> 00:26:44.170 talk about and the importance of it, all these things 499 00:26:44.210 --> 00:26:47.170 that you're bringing up are, are truly important. And yet 500 00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:52.509 there's been no accountability for, for any of it. Correct. 501 00:26:52.690 --> 00:26:57.450 And it seems like what there is accountability for either 502 00:26:57.509 --> 00:27:03.549 legislatively or otherwise are culture war issues that like, I'll 503 00:27:03.730 --> 00:27:07.430 give you an example, you know, the save act being, uh, 504 00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:11.170 you know, uh, at the forefront of so much of 505 00:27:11.230 --> 00:27:14.470 the problems that were going on in the Senate right now. 506 00:27:14.549 --> 00:27:17.950 And the liberals, they don't want, they want illegals who 507 00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:21.359 are voting in millions of numbers, not to, you know, 508 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:25.220 show an ID, you know, just utter nonsense that gets 509 00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:28.400 thrown out there or the trans debate as being at 510 00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:31.740 the forefront of what's in everybody's minds about the debt, 511 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:36.950 like nuance is utterly removed through the process of our 512 00:27:37.009 --> 00:27:40.390 media and our politics. Yet the things that you talk 513 00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:45.819 about that are facing Americans or are making them question 514 00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:51.250 the legitimacy of our institutions are never addressed, seemingly with 515 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:52.130 no accountability. 516 00:27:52.750 --> 00:27:53.089 Yeah. 517 00:27:53.150 --> 00:27:54.690 I mean, that's kind of the core of our show. 518 00:27:54.849 --> 00:27:55.250 Go ahead. 519 00:27:55.269 --> 00:27:57.710 Can I give you another example of that, John, which 520 00:27:57.789 --> 00:27:59.940 is very much top of news cycle right now? So 521 00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:03.359 there's this whole controversy about Hassan Piker and whether or 522 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:06.960 not candidates

should associate with him. And Abdullah Syed famously 523 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.529 had a rally with him. So he's being targeted right 524 00:28:09.569 --> 00:28:11.750 now is like, how dare you associate with this guy 525 00:28:11.789 --> 00:28:14.730 who said all these terrible things? The clip that they 526 00:28:14.869 --> 00:28:17.710 usually point to is where he says that we, quote unquote, 527 00:28:17.779 --> 00:28:20.779 deserve 9-11. He's talking about the concept of blowback and 528 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:24.859 for which he has since apologized. Meanwhile, Abdul El-Sayed is 529 00:28:24.940 --> 00:28:29.369 running against a guy who literally was in Congress after 9-11, 530 00:28:29.869 --> 00:28:35.089 who authorized the Iraq war, who supported mass surveillance, who 531 00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:39.960 defended torture and But that guy is fine. But associating 532 00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:42.829 with someone who said something that was edgy one time, 533 00:28:43.410 --> 00:28:46.890 that's what's out of bounds. That's what should be off limits. 534 00:28:47.369 --> 00:28:48.309 That's not just me. 535 00:28:48.349 --> 00:28:53.690 But I think most people. J.D. Vance's spiritual advisor, you know, 536 00:28:54.309 --> 00:28:57.640 the preacher that J.D. Vance considers one of his sort 537 00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:02.720 of spiritual advisors talks about male dominion over women. You know, 538 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:06.839 there are all kinds of extremes involved. in terms of association. 539 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:09.039 I remember with Obama, you know, yeah, go ahead. 540 00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:12.819 Just think about, though, the contrast between Hassan Peker said 541 00:29:12.859 --> 00:29:16.480 a thing in response to 9-11 versus this guy actually 542 00:29:16.539 --> 00:29:21.460 was in power and was involved in the horrific lies 543 00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:23.599 leading up to that war, the authorization of the war, 544 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:28.240 the torture, the murder of Iraqi civilians. And so when 545 00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:31.940 you talk about accountability, where is the accountability for that? 546 00:29:32.349 --> 00:29:35.289 Where's the moral weight on that? Versus, I mean, many 547 00:29:35.309 --> 00:29:37.890 of these guys that were villains on your show when 548 00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:40.589 you were covering the Iraq War are still around. today 549 00:29:40.609 --> 00:29:44.119 to propagandize us and push us in the Iran war. 550 00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:46.779 So I think that lack of accountability you point to 551 00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:50.259 is a big failing in our society. And in my opinion, 552 00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.700 it has to be corrected. in the next administration. People 553 00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:56.619 have to go to prison for the crimes that were committed, 554 00:29:56.660 --> 00:30:00.029 whether it's rogue ICE agents, whether it's insider trading within 555 00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:03.829 this

regime. That has to happen for us to reestablish 556 00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:05.589 anything approaching a healthy society. 557 00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:08.650 And I will say, John, for me, I know I'm 558 00:30:08.890 --> 00:30:11.430 with two liberals here, so I'm trying to pick my 559 00:30:11.450 --> 00:30:15.859 battles carefully. Sorry, a leftist and a liberal, a leftist 560 00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:19.230 and a liberal. I'm going to have to check on 561 00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:21.690 that J.D. Vance spiritual advisor one. 562 00:30:21.730 --> 00:30:23.049 Hegseth spiritual advisor. 563 00:30:23.089 --> 00:30:26.380 I was going to say, I'm fairly certain that's not true. 564 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:30.599 That was Hegseth, but J.D. Vance was Peter Thiel. When 565 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:35.839 asked by Ross Dutat, should human beings continue to exist, 566 00:30:35.900 --> 00:30:38.500 paused for like eight seconds to be like, I don't 567 00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:44.990 know about humans, and has unbelievably, the other people that 568 00:30:45.009 --> 00:30:49.579 are in those, my point being, Guilt by association, which 569 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.960 is often thrown in Democrats' faces, whether it was Obama's 570 00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:57.519 spiritual advisor, can be thrown into the right's faces, but 571 00:30:57.559 --> 00:30:59.480 it never seems to be done in that way. That's fair. 572 00:30:59.500 --> 00:30:59.740 What was it? 573 00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:02.220 Pastor Wright. Is that right? Pastor Wright? Now that I 574 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:02.710 think about it. 575 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:03.259 Yes, Pastor Wright. 576 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:04.000 That was a long time ago. 577 00:31:04.019 --> 00:31:04.940 Oh, with Obama you're talking about? 578 00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:05.240 Yeah. 579 00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:09.700 God. Anyway, I think the vein I'm picking up on, 580 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.359 and this is where I'm, I mean, I would say 581 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.329 this is like the great disappointment, political disappointment of my life. 582 00:31:15.910 --> 00:31:20.799 as I said, was I was inspired to get involved 583 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:26.819 in politics because of Iraq. And the centerpiece of the 584 00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:29.799 2024 campaign, and it's fair for people to say that 585 00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:33.059 you were fooled, was no more foreign wars. I mean, 586 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.259 the vice president, as you said, wrote an op-ed endorsing Trump, 587 00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:40.329 Trump's best legacy, no new wars. Stephen Miller famously said, 588 00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:43.910 Kamala will send your sons to war, a significant contingent 589 00:31:43.930 --> 00:31:47.259 in the 2024 campaign. was we are not going to 590 00:31:47.299 --> 00:31:51.240 war with Iran. And so to live in a reality 591 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:57.380 where Trump dastardly and disgracefully attacks Iran under the cover 592 00:31:57.579

--> 00:32:04.700 of negotiations twice, kills 168 schoolgirls, delivers the greatest strategic 593 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:08.109 disaster to the United States, potentially either since Vietnam or 594 00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:09.829 eclipsing it, if you talk to one of our guests, 595 00:32:10.250 --> 00:32:13.589 Professor Robert Pape, To live in that reality with those 596 00:32:13.650 --> 00:32:15.940 people who I really did trust, and I'm saying this 597 00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:18.000 on a personal level, I know many of them. I 598 00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.839 came up in politics kind of in the same cohort. 599 00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:24.720 It has been the greatest betrayal of my lifetime. And 600 00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:28.099 I think what's really disappointing is how much of it 601 00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:33.289 is clearly BS in that I believed that the voters 602 00:32:33.390 --> 00:32:36.829 believed that the wars were bad. And so to live 603 00:32:36.849 --> 00:32:41.349 in a reality... where Thomas Massey loses his House primary 604 00:32:41.710 --> 00:32:46.349 purely because of AIPAC and pro-Israel money, and a boomer 605 00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:48.450 Republican base who, if you'd pull them under. 606 00:32:48.710 --> 00:32:51.589 Well, and that Trump, I mean, let's not deny. 607 00:32:51.609 --> 00:32:54.910 Yeah, and Trump, right, of course, 100%. Right, those two together, 608 00:32:55.009 --> 00:32:56.430 like those two forces together. 609 00:32:56.809 --> 00:32:58.569 Sagar, I want to ask you a question, and I 610 00:32:58.589 --> 00:33:01.559 mean this, and this is for Crystal too. The dynamic 611 00:33:01.579 --> 00:33:07.859 that you're describing is a politics that distorts reality, that 612 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:15.859 creates an impression and then makes policy choices to ameliorate 613 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:20.039 the damage of this false reality. And you're saying that 614 00:33:20.099 --> 00:33:25.319 your dividing line for that was Iraq and now Iran. 615 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.089 I think maybe the disconnect here for whatever you would 616 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.240 call liberals or the left or any of those things 617 00:33:32.009 --> 00:33:36.690 is that the entirety of Trump's operation has been that. 618 00:33:38.180 --> 00:33:40.200 That's right. 619 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.789 Has been the same dynamic you're describing that has disappointed 620 00:33:43.829 --> 00:33:46.950 you in Iraq and Iran. I would say has disappointed 621 00:33:47.009 --> 00:33:50.769 me when you say the Haitian community is eating cats 622 00:33:50.809 --> 00:33:56.559 and dogs. Well, that's the same immigration-wise as Saddam Hussein 623 00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.400 is using these aluminum tubes to enrich uranium, and that's 624 00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:02.299 why we have to go in there. In other words, 625 00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:06.250 the reason that has been given For so many of 626 00:34:06.289 --> 00:34:10.469 these policy decisions that I would disagree with is also 627 00:34:10.530 --> 00:34:11.920 a distortion of reality. 628 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.260 I think that's entirely fair, John. 629 00:34:13.460 --> 00:34:16.699 So I find it interesting that somehow Iran, it's like 630 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.190 the whole Tucker Carlson of it. I've had enough. Really? 631 00:34:20.989 --> 00:34:23.289 Because it looks to me like it's the same shit 632 00:34:23.329 --> 00:34:25.139 that's been happening from day one. 633 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:28.900 I think that's entirely fair, again, to take a step back. 634 00:34:28.940 --> 00:34:32.639 And I can only, from my perspective, like the Haitian thing. Yeah, 635 00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.019 it was a lie. The truth is a lot of 636 00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:38.639 us sat and swallowed it because we wanted less immigration. 637 00:34:38.659 --> 00:34:41.099 And we're like, OK, well, I mean, this highlights a 638 00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:43.860 topic and an issue which we can fight on. We 639 00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:46.030 can put the left on the back foot because, you know, 640 00:34:46.050 --> 00:34:48.989 they want, you know, mass amnesty. And we don't. And 641 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:51.590 that was a tactical political decision that people in politics 642 00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:52.750 make all the time. 643 00:34:52.829 --> 00:34:55.250 But I'm not even sure they want mass amnesty. I 644 00:34:55.289 --> 00:34:57.230 even think that's a red herring. Fair. I don't know 645 00:34:57.289 --> 00:34:59.849 that they do want mass amnesty, but we don't have 646 00:34:59.889 --> 00:35:03.750 a politics in this country that's functional enough or literate 647 00:35:03.809 --> 00:35:07.699 enough to have an actual conversation about what immigration in 648 00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:08.800 this country should look like. 649 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:11.409 I think that, again, I totally take your point. And 650 00:35:11.429 --> 00:35:14.070 this is where, this is the most common- Look at me. 651 00:35:14.150 --> 00:35:14.809 Look at me. 652 00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:19.110 Come on. My parents are loving this. My parents are 653 00:35:19.130 --> 00:35:21.829 loving this, me being put in my place. But I 654 00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:24.449 do think like with the Iran thing, and again, I 655 00:35:24.469 --> 00:35:27.420 can explain it from my perspective, which was these were 656 00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.960 people whose entire careers literally were kind of built on 657 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.840 opposition to the neoconservative agenda. And did we know Trump 658 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.619 is a liar, a con, often says various different things. 659 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:39.360 Absolutely. 660 00:35:39.710 --> 00:35:41.889 Many of us knew that or would say it in private. 661 00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:43.809 What we also knew is that in his first term, 662 00:35:43.849 --> 00:35:45.989 he was incredibly deferential to a lot of his staff. 663

00:35:46.349 --> 00:35:48.289 A lot of the people we were hiring, he was hiring, 664 00:35:48.409 --> 00:35:50.269 I knew for a fact, you know, at the very 665 00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:52.670 least had a genuine belief we shouldn't go to war 666 00:35:52.710 --> 00:35:56.800 with Iran. But what was extremely blackpilling, to use an 667 00:35:56.940 --> 00:36:00.940 online term, was to see those same people have to 668 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:05.079 defend the war and in some cases use Iraq rhetoric. 669 00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:08.039 I mean, I remember the vice president, who I'd seen 670 00:36:08.139 --> 00:36:11.989 give lectures against the war with Iran or against neoconservatism. 671 00:36:12.449 --> 00:36:13.869 He was in the Oval. It was in the middle 672 00:36:13.889 --> 00:36:15.369 of the Iran war. And he's like, it's like a 673 00:36:15.449 --> 00:36:18.010 suicide bomber. We're not going to wait till the suicide 674 00:36:18.050 --> 00:36:20.730 bomb goes off to disarm it. And I was like, 675 00:36:20.889 --> 00:36:21.050 oh my. 676 00:36:21.650 --> 00:36:23.719 We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. 677 00:36:23.739 --> 00:36:28.820 It's Condoleezza Rice all over again. I actually couldn't believe it. 678 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:32.909 You know, Mark Thiessen is back on my television screen 679 00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:35.690 and Ari Fleischer is back on my television screen and 680 00:36:36.030 --> 00:36:39.429 the same liars like who are justifying this. And to 681 00:36:39.510 --> 00:36:43.469 watch that happen, like I would say, fine, I was fooled. 682 00:36:43.630 --> 00:36:46.150 I didn't think it would. I thought that the lesson 683 00:36:46.190 --> 00:36:49.929 was learned. And there's a major mea culpa that has 684 00:36:49.989 --> 00:36:52.949 had and has to be had by people who thought 685 00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:55.719 that it would be different and said so. So that's 686 00:36:55.739 --> 00:36:57.039 kind of where I am currently. 687 00:36:57.219 --> 00:36:59.909 Crystal, what do you think of that? Because it's hard 688 00:36:59.969 --> 00:37:02.230 for me to hear a mea culpa about an Iran 689 00:37:02.250 --> 00:37:06.110 war when the entire regime is that. There's an inevitability 690 00:37:06.550 --> 00:37:09.829 to the reality distortion field and the actions that they 691 00:37:09.869 --> 00:37:13.329 take based on a reality that they are creating. Yeah. 692 00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.900 Well, this is something Sagar and I have had it 693 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:17.920 out over on our show quite a lot and have 694 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:21.320 sorted through in many conversations. And I've certainly had my 695 00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:24.070 I told you so's. And in fairness to Sagar. 696 00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:25.809 It's not even an I told you. I don't mean 697 00:37:25.849 --> 00:37:27.570 it that way. Honestly, it's not that. 698 00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:29.670 No, I get what you're saying, though. And I think

699 00:37:29.789 --> 00:37:33.510 one of the biggest differences in my view going into 700 00:37:33.530 --> 00:37:36.349 Trump 2.0 and Sagar's view, apart from the fact that 701 00:37:36.369 --> 00:37:38.829 we have different ideologies and so we have different things 702 00:37:38.849 --> 00:37:41.570 that we consider to be good or bad, specifically on 703 00:37:41.630 --> 00:37:46.239 immigration in particular. But Sagar's view was that there were 704 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:49.010 institutional constraints the first time and there will be some 705 00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:50.590 institutional constraints this time. 706 00:37:50.750 --> 00:37:51.090 That's true. 707 00:37:51.329 --> 00:37:54.199 I looked at the what had been done in the offseason, 708 00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:57.280 whether it was Project 2025, whether it was all of 709 00:37:57.300 --> 00:38:00.570 the plans to fire mass fire government workers. whether it 710 00:38:00.610 --> 00:38:03.050 was the Supreme Court taking control of the Supreme Court 711 00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:05.230 and then the Supreme Court giving Trump a green light 712 00:38:05.269 --> 00:38:07.630 to commit whatever crimes in office that he wants to, 713 00:38:08.130 --> 00:38:10.769 whether it was the mass loyalty test and fealty that 714 00:38:10.829 --> 00:38:14.139 he demanded and demanded that people back up his 2020 715 00:38:14.139 --> 00:38:17.900 election stolen lies. I looked at that and said, no, 716 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:20.500 this is going to be gloves off. It is going 717 00:38:20.539 --> 00:38:24.099 to be a most maximalist version of what he would 718 00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:27.119 want to do, of what his id is. And it's 719 00:38:27.139 --> 00:38:30.000 going to be horrifying. Now, even I don't think could 720 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:35.250 have anticipated all of the Doge and Seacott and murdering 721 00:38:35.369 --> 00:38:39.110 random fishermen in the Caribbean. I could have anticipated and 722 00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:42.929 did anticipate the Iran war. But those were, I think, 723 00:38:43.010 --> 00:38:45.690 two of the very different frames that we had coming 724 00:38:45.750 --> 00:38:48.210 into this. And, you know, for me, I'm very much 725 00:38:48.309 --> 00:38:52.940 caught People who now are seeing some of the problems, 726 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.760 I want to say, great, come along. But I agree 727 00:38:56.780 --> 00:39:00.429 with you that there has to be some reckoning with, okay, 728 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:03.320 How did you get it wrong? And again, I think 729 00:39:03.340 --> 00:39:05.239 Sagar has actually done this, but how did you get 730 00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:06.889 it wrong? How did you end up in this place? 731 00:39:07.449 --> 00:39:10.409 And what are we doing going forward? Because if you're 732 00:39:10.429 --> 00:39:13.130 now just all of a sudden pretending like you had 733 00:39:13.170 --> 00:39:16.030 nothing to do with his rise, if you aren't reckoning 734 00:39:16.110 --> 00:39:20.550 with the other lies and horrors that unfolded during Trump 1.0 735 00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:23.010 and in the offseason and in the buildup to Iran, 736 00:39:23.429 --> 00:39:25.909 then it's going to be very difficult to have any 737 00:39:25.949 --> 00:39:29.389 sort of like coming together or certainly a coalition formed 738 00:39:29.429 --> 00:39:29.969 around that group. 739 00:39:37.469 --> 00:39:43.349 I only eat food now that afterwards I can swim 740 00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:48.309 in the bowl that I ate it in. That's... Can 741 00:39:48.329 --> 00:39:50.650 you imagine if your cereal bowl was literally big enough 742 00:39:50.670 --> 00:39:52.690 you could eat your cereal and then go for a 743 00:39:52.750 --> 00:39:57.190 quick dip? Oh, oh, the time I would save. But 744 00:39:57.210 --> 00:40:01.050 I got to tell you, this Magic Spoon, man, it's 745 00:40:01.110 --> 00:40:05.610 healthy food. Cereal. Imagine that. Cereal, but healthy. It's Magic 746 00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:09.940 Spoon changing the game. They got 13 grams of protein 747 00:40:10.179 --> 00:40:12.280 for those of you going through the change of life 748 00:40:12.980 --> 00:40:16.539 as I am, where you get the old sarcopenias. As 749 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.099 they come in, you got to get that muscle up. 750 00:40:18.610 --> 00:40:21.309 You got to get that protein. Zero sugar, by the way. 751 00:40:21.750 --> 00:40:25.090 Five grams of net carbs per serving. That's low. So 752 00:40:25.110 --> 00:40:27.820 you got a lot of protein, no sugar, and not 753 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:33.880 that many carbs there. Great breakfast, late night snack, post-workout fuel, 754 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.099 wake up in the middle of the night weeping. It's 755 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.460 a great time to console yourself. They got granola. They 756 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:43.289 got snack bars. Come on, man. Don't make me beg. 757 00:40:44.230 --> 00:40:46.170 Look for Magic Spoon on Amazon or at your nearest 758 00:40:46.190 --> 00:40:49.320 grocery store. And there are plant-based versions of the cereal too. 759 00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:51.599 Even vegans get to feel like they had a childhood. 760 00:40:52.139 --> 00:40:56.059 You'll find vegan options at Whole Foods or get $ 5 761 00:40:55.320 --> 00:41:00.599 off your next order at magicspoon.com slash TWS. That's magicspoon.com 762 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:11.199 slash TWS for $ 5 off. My concern is that this 763 00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:15.250 awakening is actually just strategic. 764 00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:17.179 What do you mean by that? 765 00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:23.260 So, all right, let's go to the photograph in the 766 00:41:23.340 --> 00:41:27.809 Cracker Barrel, the Thomas Massey, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson 767 00:41:27.889 --> 00:41:32.949 photo of the diaspora, the Republican diaspora, those that have 768 00:41:33.030 --> 00:41:36.050 woken and the Iran war. And now they sit in 769

00:41:36.090 --> 00:41:38.980 this room and they're going to come up with the, 770 00:41:39.139 --> 00:41:41.679 it's not, this is the real Make America Great Again. 771 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:46.550 That was fake. We enabled it. We worked our asses 772 00:41:46.670 --> 00:41:54.199 off to amplify the lying, to help create a reality 773 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.239 distortion field that has given us all of these bad 774 00:41:57.340 --> 00:42:04.079 outcomes from invading Iran to a shitty reflecting pool because 775 00:42:04.099 --> 00:42:05.760 they're all one in the same. They're part of the 776 00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:10.139 same process, quite frankly. It's all the same. It's the 777 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:14.579 real great replacement theory. Let's take all the partisans and 778 00:42:14.619 --> 00:42:17.780 replace them with ideologues because partisans are part of the game. 779 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:22.099 Ideologues are a whole different version. And now what they've 780 00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:27.349 done is they've created a little isolated group that can say, 781 00:42:27.369 --> 00:42:32.170 oh no, we didn't go along with it. So whoever 782 00:42:33.010 --> 00:42:37.510 kind of rises up to next lead MAGA, that group 783 00:42:37.590 --> 00:42:43.050 can bless and provide cover to, to say, oh no, 784 00:42:44.489 --> 00:42:47.420 these guys have it right now. This is the real 785 00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:51.280 MAGA and we'll provide cover. And I don't think any 786 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:54.539 of it is an intentional. I think the entirety of 787 00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:57.469 the design of this, and it's not just the last 788 00:42:57.469 --> 00:42:59.969 10 years, it's the last 50 or 60 years. 789 00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:03.750 So, I mean, obviously a very cynical interpretation. And I 790 00:43:03.789 --> 00:43:04.630 know some of the people. 791 00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:09.500 Please tell me why I shouldn't be cynical about that interpretation. 792 00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:12.860 Please tell me why these bad faith actors are suddenly 793 00:43:13.030 --> 00:43:14.010 acting in good faith. 794 00:43:14.389 --> 00:43:16.690 You have every right to think that. I don't think 795 00:43:16.710 --> 00:43:20.130 that there's nearly the incentive that you necessarily are impute. 796 00:43:20.150 --> 00:43:22.489 Like you have people who all lost their elections and 797 00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:25.309 are not exactly like, well, let's say Marjorie Taylor Greene's 798 00:43:25.530 --> 00:43:28.389 and Thomas Massey's case, like actually lost their entire careers. 799 00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:31.469 Or Joe Kent, for example, who I know personally. 800 00:43:31.730 --> 00:43:33.849 I don't think they're the progenitors of it. I think 801 00:43:33.929 --> 00:43:36.869 Tucker is. I think he's the one who has to be, 802 00:43:37.250 --> 00:43:40.380 it's very telling. He said, I couldn't believe how little 803 00:43:40.429 --> 00:43:43.599 influence I have.

His whole thing is I have to 804 00:43:43.659 --> 00:43:45.719 be in proximity to power. 805 00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:48.539 I see, look, I've known Tucker for a long time. 806 00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:52.380 I just don't really agree with that analysis, having spoken 807 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:55.760 to him. I would say that he does feel genuinely 808 00:43:55.820 --> 00:43:58.530 burned by Donald Trump, not just with Iran, but actually 809 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:00.320 With a lot more. I know you're skeptical. 810 00:44:00.380 --> 00:44:03.119 Well, I mean, how are you burned by a guy 811 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:06.179 that 10 years ago you said, this man is corrupt 812 00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:08.380 to the core and I hate him? Sure. How are 813 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.139 you burned by that? 814 00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:10.940 I mean, the vice president said that as well. 815 00:44:11.019 --> 00:44:11.219 Right. 816 00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:12.400 I think, right, people can change. 817 00:44:12.579 --> 00:44:18.039 And is also a cynical, cynical person manipulating himself into 818 00:44:18.099 --> 00:44:21.039 the halls of power. You can't convince me otherwise because 819 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.360 I've seen no evidence of it. Sure. 820 00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:25.320 Let's take the vice president out because you're right. He's 821 00:44:25.340 --> 00:44:27.179 literally the vice president. So he had something to gain. 822 00:44:27.389 --> 00:44:31.309 I don't see necessarily the same Tucker gain. I guess 823 00:44:31.349 --> 00:44:33.869 whenever it comes to the third party or let's even 824 00:44:33.909 --> 00:44:37.650 take the Trump criticism, I again think it's genuine. It 825 00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:43.039 has lost him any like genuine friendships. cachet, I think, 826 00:44:43.099 --> 00:44:45.400 in terms of his ability to project power in a 827 00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.840 Republican party. I mean, I'm not sure if you've seen 828 00:44:47.900 --> 00:44:51.360 some of the approval polling on Tucker, like after Trump 829 00:44:51.380 --> 00:44:54.150 attacked him. Did they do approval polling on pundits? Yes, 830 00:44:54.230 --> 00:44:57.250 they did, because they were testing this exact theory of 831 00:44:57.309 --> 00:45:01.090 what you're discussing, which is like, hey, does Tucker independently 832 00:45:01.130 --> 00:45:04.389 have juice amongst Republicans without Trump? And his net negatives 833 00:45:04.469 --> 00:45:07.809 went much higher. Obviously, he's independent on his show, like 834 00:45:08.090 --> 00:45:10.380 in terms of his like, you know, away from partisanship 835 00:45:10.389 --> 00:45:12.369 or his own economic situation. 836 00:45:12.389 --> 00:45:15.230 But Sagar, the same could be said about Republicans who 837 00:45:15.570 --> 00:45:18.739 were apostate about the Iraq war. In other words, people 838 00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:22.159 look to the future. And he's always been a guy 839 00:45:22.460 --> 00:45:26.079 that has looked to what's in it. Look, explain to 840 00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:29.059 me a guy who says, I'm all about liberty and 841 00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.440 America and make America great again. And you know who's 842 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:39.170 really a great leader? Putin. There's an incoherence to this 843 00:45:39.329 --> 00:45:42.059 that has to be cynical because it's incoherent. 844 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.340 I understand how you get there. But again, but it's 845 00:45:45.409 --> 00:45:47.650 like what and this is kind of like we were 846 00:45:47.670 --> 00:45:49.610 because I work with Crystal, like I could see your 847 00:45:49.650 --> 00:45:50.610 brain pathways. 848 00:45:50.829 --> 00:45:51.409 Yes, yes, yes. 849 00:45:51.449 --> 00:45:54.010 How you get there. So I'll explain the way that 850 00:45:54.289 --> 00:45:56.050 we would get there and the way we would get 851 00:45:56.090 --> 00:45:59.309 there is like Tucker or not even just Tucker, a 852 00:45:59.349 --> 00:46:01.530 lot of MAGA. And you're talking about Putin, I assume, 853 00:46:01.570 --> 00:46:04.250 in terms of like the war in Ukraine or admiration 854 00:46:04.309 --> 00:46:06.570 or whatever for the Russian system, some of which, by 855 00:46:06.590 --> 00:46:08.429 the way, I do think goes too far. but a 856 00:46:08.530 --> 00:46:09.889 lot of it is about a rejection. 857 00:46:09.909 --> 00:46:10.429 Some of which? 858 00:46:10.789 --> 00:46:13.550 No, I'm saying in terms of people who are like, oh, 859 00:46:13.630 --> 00:46:17.730 Russia is this pinnacle of Western greatness. And it's like, well, 860 00:46:17.789 --> 00:46:20.150 just look at their demographics and their economy. That's not 861 00:46:20.309 --> 00:46:23.679 exactly true. But the point that I think where it 862 00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:27.420 came from, again, just to try to explain this, is 863 00:46:28.099 --> 00:46:33.420 a lot of the original 2016 energy in particular was 864 00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:38.449 a Buchananite rejection of globalism. And In particular, I think 865 00:46:38.489 --> 00:46:41.260 what people tried to see in Putin or slash like 866 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:45.460 admiration or whatever of Putin or the Russian system was 867 00:46:45.539 --> 00:46:48.880 somebody who stands athwart like the neoliberal West. 868 00:46:49.019 --> 00:46:49.199 Right. 869 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:51.900 So if I were to look at it through that frame, 870 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:54.369 it's a little bit different. Like, I don't think it 871 00:46:54.469 --> 00:46:58.289 is necessarily as incongruent as you're thinking, because if you're 872 00:46:58.429 --> 00:47:02.150 a nationalist and your primary view of the world is 873 00:47:02.190 --> 00:47:04.809 that sovereignty itself is one of the things you should 874 00:47:04.869 --> 00:47:08.199 promote and not just promote, but to cherish and to 875 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.880 hold dear as much as possible, then you're going to 876

00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:14.960 look at different countries which have rejected a Western global 877 00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:18.929 hegemon and say, oh, that's admirable, I guess, in a sense. Again, 878 00:47:19.010 --> 00:47:21.170 I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm trying 879 00:47:21.190 --> 00:47:23.170 to explain how somebody would get there. 880 00:47:23.190 --> 00:47:23.269 Yeah. 881 00:47:23.869 --> 00:47:27.809 Well, Crystal, let me ask you, because this gets us 882 00:47:27.869 --> 00:47:30.090 into a whole other thing, but maybe this is the 883 00:47:30.110 --> 00:47:34.349 distinction between left-wing and right-wing populism. Because I always think 884 00:47:34.369 --> 00:47:37.349 of populism through a much more economic lens, but there 885 00:47:37.369 --> 00:47:40.280 really is a nationalist lens that you have to look 886 00:47:40.489 --> 00:47:45.139 through it as well. And the thing that's interesting about 887 00:47:45.460 --> 00:47:49.400 the right-wing populism is, and again, I view it as cynical. 888 00:47:51.019 --> 00:47:54.860 It's the Bannon theory of power. I'm going to combine 889 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:58.019 left-wing economic populism, because I think that gives me a 890 00:47:58.059 --> 00:48:00.659 large group of people to pull from, and I'm going 891 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:07.730 to combine it with right-wing, we must protect white Anglo-Saxon 892 00:48:08.289 --> 00:48:14.289 culture and Western civilization, which is their, I guess, sort 893 00:48:14.349 --> 00:48:24.260 of euphemism for that homogeneity. I think the second part 894 00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:28.360 of that, the white homogeneity is more important to them 895 00:48:28.900 --> 00:48:31.739 than the economic populism. And the reason that I think 896 00:48:31.780 --> 00:48:35.440 that is because They didn't tell their judges to be 897 00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:39.460 economic populists. Like, yes, every Supreme Court decision that comes 898 00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:44.519 down basically favors corporate interest. Yeah. Rather than workers interest. 899 00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:48.119 The economic part of it, at least, you know, putting 900 00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:51.110 the voters aside. But in the expression of right wing 901 00:48:51.130 --> 00:48:53.510 populism in Trump and I would say other right wing 902 00:48:53.550 --> 00:48:57.699 populist leaders around the world. The economic part is basically fake. 903 00:48:57.820 --> 00:49:01.000 I mean, this has been an incredible administration for billionaires 904 00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:03.739 in the oligarch class. They've never made more money or 905 00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.820 had more power or been deregulated. They're getting everything they want. 906 00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:10.610 And that's part of why it was easier for Trump 907 00:49:11.130 --> 00:49:13.309 to take over the Republican Party than it has been 908 00:49:13.349 --> 00:49:15.869 for the left to take over the Democratic Party, because

909 00:49:15.889 --> 00:49:20.860 the left-wing populism, that class dynamic you're talking about, that 910 00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:25.159 is the whole thing, right? In populism, you're basically doing 911 00:49:25.300 --> 00:49:27.940 the people versus who is the villain. For the left, 912 00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:30.309 the villain is the billionaires, it's the trillionaires, it's the 913 00:49:30.389 --> 00:49:34.469 Epstein class, it's the oligarchs. For the right, It's typically, 914 00:49:34.610 --> 00:49:37.000 you know, to frame it, I think you're right in 915 00:49:37.019 --> 00:49:39.480 your framing. There's usually a lot of, you know, scapegoating 916 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:42.659 of various minority groups. And so you can use a 917 00:49:42.699 --> 00:49:46.199 sort of sloppilist, faux populist rhetoric when it comes to 918 00:49:46.219 --> 00:49:48.909 the economics. But that has all been cast aside. And 919 00:49:48.929 --> 00:49:50.710 in Trump 1.0, it was as well. I mean, their 920 00:49:50.750 --> 00:49:54.090 biggest economic accomplishment was this big tax cut for the 921 00:49:54.150 --> 00:49:57.590 rich that was cooked up by the Heritage Foundation and 922 00:49:57.860 --> 00:50:01.730 Paul Ryan. So I think that is an important distinction here. 923 00:50:01.929 --> 00:50:05.929 And I think that's increasingly becoming clear to many Americans, 924 00:50:05.969 --> 00:50:08.780 which is why Trump's approval rating on the economy is 925 00:50:08.969 --> 00:50:11.960 in the toilet, why there is such disgust with him, 926 00:50:12.340 --> 00:50:17.000 why you see this real rise of left-wing populist candidates. 927 00:50:17.500 --> 00:50:22.250 who are overcoming a lot of money and establishment rejection 928 00:50:22.289 --> 00:50:24.750 of them and, you know, attempts to smear and demagogue 929 00:50:24.789 --> 00:50:28.150 against them. But they're able to succeed anyway because the 930 00:50:28.510 --> 00:50:31.289 establishment has lost so much credibility with the Democratic base. 931 00:50:31.670 --> 00:50:34.900 And also because these economic and oligarchic forces have become 932 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.880 so abundantly apparent to so many Americans. 933 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:38.699 Yeah, John. 934 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:42.440 And I think, look, again, I hear your critique. And, 935 00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:43.559 you know, I've had my- By. 936 00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.199 The way, Sagar, you really are like, Your way of 937 00:50:47.260 --> 00:50:50.280 dealing with me is exactly how now I'm going to 938 00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:53.199 go home and deal with people in my family. I 939 00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:54.780 hear what you're saying. Right. 940 00:50:55.630 --> 00:50:56.650 I see how you got there. 941 00:50:56.670 --> 00:50:57.789 I see how you got there. 942 00:50:57.809 --> 00:51:01.110 Because I spend my time with Crystal and, you know. 943 00:51:01.170 --> 00:51:03.730 I've been in that way, Mo. And I understand. 944 00:51:03.929 --> 00:51:04.309 Yeah. 945 00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:05.760 It's taken you. Right. 946 00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:07.519 You took one route. We're taking another. 947 00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:08.039 Exactly. 948 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:10.099 If you were to take my route, my preferred route. 949 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:11.000 So. 950 00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:16.860 You're imbuing kind of an ideology of just in your 951 00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:21.929 original analysis there about economics and about white identity politics. 952 00:51:22.510 --> 00:51:25.110 But I actually think, and I would take it further, 953 00:51:25.710 --> 00:51:29.769 is it's actually worse. It's really just about Trump. And 954 00:51:29.789 --> 00:51:32.579 I think it really took the Iran war to fully 955 00:51:32.619 --> 00:51:36.400 kick that in for me, is that the voters fundamentally, 956 00:51:37.019 --> 00:51:40.280 they just really like Trump. And it's actually not as 957 00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:42.820 much about policy or any of the things that you 958 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.179 might type of think. I really hit home for me 959 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:48.360 in terms of like when I talk to some of 960 00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:51.809 these people still all on board the Trump train, especially 961 00:51:51.829 --> 00:51:54.210 the older voters, they really just love how he drives 962 00:51:54.230 --> 00:51:56.670 people like you crazy. And that's actually just all it is. 963 00:51:57.849 --> 00:52:00.110 Like any any time like you see. 964 00:51:59.969 --> 00:52:01.690 That may be the saddest thing I've ever heard. 965 00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:04.750 But it's true. It is kind of empirically true, is 966 00:52:04.809 --> 00:52:08.309 what you see is like liberal cultural rejection of Trump. 967 00:52:08.650 --> 00:52:09.760 He hates the right people. 968 00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:13.219 Or no, he's hated by the right people. That's actually 969 00:52:13.260 --> 00:52:13.739 what it's about. 970 00:52:13.820 --> 00:52:14.059 All right. 971 00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:17.280 That's the truth, I think, at the beating heart of 972 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:18.980 a lot of the remaining MAGA coalitions. 973 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:22.130 So if we start to like him, they'll abandon him? 974 00:52:22.349 --> 00:52:25.150 I don't know about that. The damage has probably been done, 975 00:52:25.269 --> 00:52:28.010 but I don't know if they would cling necessarily as 976 00:52:28.030 --> 00:52:30.909 hard as you think. But this is where, though, to 977 00:52:30.969 --> 00:52:34.139 kind of break my own analysis, the one thing that 978 00:52:34.179 --> 00:52:38.860 does appear to quote-unquote trump that is the economic situation, 979 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:41.440 which is a validation, I think, of the economic framework 980 00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:43.900 of what you're talking about. For the very first time, 981 00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:47.099 we see Trump's net approval rating or

approval rating with 982 00:52:47.139 --> 00:52:50.679 Republicans on the economy began to dip down as a result, 983 00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:53.230 both of the way that the tariffs were handled and 984 00:52:53.269 --> 00:52:56.590 because of the Iran war and $ 4 gasoline. That is 985 00:52:56.670 --> 00:52:59.789 beginning to pierce what I would say is the cultural veneer. 986 00:52:59.829 --> 00:53:02.260 And it already has, you know, definitely for a lot of, 987 00:53:02.289 --> 00:53:04.630 let's say, the younger men or voters who went along 988 00:53:04.929 --> 00:53:06.570 with Trump in 2024. 989 00:53:06.570 --> 00:53:10.239 But I'd rather talk about the designers of this program 990 00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:14.800 than those that have to live through it. I think 991 00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:21.360 I'm talking more about the designers, that the Project 2025 designers. 992 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:27.869 There is a Christian nationalist bent to it that I 993 00:53:27.929 --> 00:53:32.630 think is the driving force of it. And everything else 994 00:53:33.210 --> 00:53:37.949 is strategic and intentional about how do we get there? 995 00:53:38.789 --> 00:53:41.900 How do we get to the power? How do we 996 00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:46.480 get to control everything? when our ultimate goal is that. 997 00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:50.230 So I actually see, I think it's much more economic. 998 00:53:50.630 --> 00:53:53.909 And even Project 2025 itself is kind of a complicated story, right? 999 00:53:53.949 --> 00:53:57.329 Because Project 2025 was written by the Heritage Foundation. It 1000 00:53:57.369 --> 00:54:00.840 was explicitly disavowed by Donald Trump on the campaign trail, 1001 00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:02.260 who was like, I have nothing to do. 1002 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:02.940 Oh, oh. 1003 00:54:03.159 --> 00:54:04.539 No, I'm not saying it was real. 1004 00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:05.300 Come on, man. 1005 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:08.539 I'm saying he did devout it, correct? Like he did. 1006 00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:13.190 But cynically, he didn't disavow it. He gave it plausible 1007 00:54:13.250 --> 00:54:17.070 deniability as he does it. That's my point is when 1008 00:54:17.110 --> 00:54:20.690 you act like, wow, this Iran thing really caught me 1009 00:54:20.789 --> 00:54:25.090 off guard. And then you tell me with earnestness, oh no, 1010 00:54:25.150 --> 00:54:29.110 he disavowed 2025. He did nothing of the kind. He 1011 00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:32.010 in no way wanted to deal with the particulars of 1012 00:54:32.070 --> 00:54:35.739 it because he knew how politically damaging it was. Right. 1013 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:36.119 No, no. 1014 00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:38.460 I'm actually, I was about to get there. So I 1015 00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:41.869 was saying he disavowed it only then to hire- Many 1016 00:54:41.889 --> 00:54:45.130 of the people who were signatories of Project 2025. So 1017 00:54:45.449 --> 00:54:48.769 there wasn't an acknowledgment going into the campaign that this 1018 00:54:48.849 --> 00:54:52.590 is politically damaging, this type of product, the Heritage Foundation, etc. 1019 00:54:52.610 --> 00:54:55.340 But then that became the general policy, at least in 1020 00:54:55.380 --> 00:54:57.780 some areas. It's been kind of complicated because a lot 1021 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.480 of it is just Trump himself deciding what the tariff 1022 00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:02.869 rate on China should be. Whenever he wakes up in 1023 00:55:02.889 --> 00:55:04.809 the morning, I'm not joking. That's actually how it works. 1024 00:55:05.409 --> 00:55:07.809 I liked when he did, he didn't like a conversation 1025 00:55:07.829 --> 00:55:12.110 he had in Switzerland and he was like 50% on chocolate. Right. Yeah. 1026 00:55:12.110 --> 00:55:14.489 50% on chocolate and watches for the watch community. That 1027 00:55:14.510 --> 00:55:18.639 was devastating as a member of that. So like when 1028 00:55:18.659 --> 00:55:21.400 we talk about the designers, I don't know if it's 1029 00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:24.340 as intentional though, as you say, I do think all 1030 00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:30.250 political coalitions have people who are insider organizations in Washington 1031 00:55:30.269 --> 00:55:32.190 who are jockeying for power. That's literally the job of 1032 00:55:32.210 --> 00:55:36.110 the Heritage Foundation or of these neoconservative think tanks. So 1033 00:55:36.130 --> 00:55:38.090 you're saying what you're talking about, how you think the 1034 00:55:38.139 --> 00:55:40.920 Iran war came out of nowhere, that's kind of a 1035 00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:44.099 foolish thought. But it's just really hard for somebody who 1036 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:47.579 lives in the town, knows some of the most senior 1037 00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:50.300 appointees or some of the people who were there, who 1038 00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:54.019 in private and in public are spoke against war with Iran, 1039 00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:56.360 made good cases against war with Iran, why we should 1040 00:55:56.380 --> 00:55:59.300 disengage from the Middle East. To say that that was 1041 00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:03.909 disingenuous the whole time, I'm still just having a hard 1042 00:56:03.949 --> 00:56:04.510 time with it. 1043 00:56:04.530 --> 00:56:07.610 No, what I'm saying is not that it was disingenuous. 1044 00:56:08.050 --> 00:56:11.550 And I'll ask you this, Crystal. The idea wasn't that 1045 00:56:11.610 --> 00:56:15.090 they really didn't believe they would go into Iran. My 1046 00:56:15.170 --> 00:56:19.530 point is that all these other policy decisions that have 1047 00:56:19.570 --> 00:56:22.409 gone along with the intentional design of moving us more 1048 00:56:22.449 --> 00:56:30.780 towards this intentional heritage American version, non-credal America of a 1049 00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:34.440 people who belong here more than other people, who are 1050 00:56:34.539 --> 00:56:39.440 more American than

other people, real America. That's all been 1051 00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:47.190 driven by a very intentional planning group that is trying 1052 00:56:47.230 --> 00:56:51.150 to figure out ways to maximize their power, and in 1053 00:56:51.309 --> 00:56:57.400 doing so, have created this group that is manufacturing a 1054 00:56:57.500 --> 00:57:00.980 reality to get them to do that. Now, the Iran war, 1055 00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:03.980 whether it fits into that framing or not, that's the 1056 00:57:04.019 --> 00:57:07.869 reality of it. It's a cynical manipulation to get to 1057 00:57:07.909 --> 00:57:12.070 a certain goal. And my problem is, and Crystal, I'm 1058 00:57:12.090 --> 00:57:16.510 going to ask you this, Is it your problem as 1059 00:57:16.570 --> 00:57:19.429 well that you look at this sudden, like, I can't 1060 00:57:19.489 --> 00:57:23.300 believe the tiger ate my face when the rest of 1061 00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:28.260 us have been faced with this cynical manipulation of policy 1062 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:31.820 the whole time? Yeah. Whether it got them the results 1063 00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:34.550 they wanted on immigration, but not the result they wanted 1064 00:57:34.610 --> 00:57:34.750 on Iran. 1065 00:57:36.309 --> 00:57:38.929 Yeah. I mean, at the risk of getting up on soccer, 1066 00:57:38.969 --> 00:57:39.449 I feel very. 1067 00:57:39.369 --> 00:57:40.550 Similarly to you. No, no, no. And by the way, 1068 00:57:40.610 --> 00:57:43.389 and then we'll talk about how the left sucks. Okay. 1069 00:57:43.429 --> 00:57:46.239 We'll do that in a moment. But no, I mean, look, 1070 00:57:46.380 --> 00:57:49.440 I look at the track record from Trump 1.0. I 1071 00:57:49.500 --> 00:57:52.480 look at J.D. Vance's speech, to your point, about the 1072 00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:56.559 like heritage American Christian nationalist vision for the country. His 1073 00:57:56.619 --> 00:58:00.300 speech at the RNC where he laid down an explicitly 1074 00:58:00.380 --> 00:58:04.139 blood and soil conception said that America is not an idea. 1075 00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.679 And then you look at Stephen Miller, who is so 1076 00:58:07.739 --> 00:58:11.059 powerful that he's been called the prime minister within the administration. 1077 00:58:11.489 --> 00:58:14.690 And this guy is a diehard ideologue who loves to 1078 00:58:14.929 --> 00:58:18.309 Nazi post on Maine. You know, there is no doubt 1079 00:58:18.690 --> 00:58:23.250 what his priorities are. And so far, as Trump even 1080 00:58:23.289 --> 00:58:25.150 has said, like, oh, this guy would like there to 1081 00:58:25.190 --> 00:58:27.090 just be 100 million people in the country that all 1082 00:58:27.130 --> 00:58:29.409 look like him. So it's not a secret what his 1083 00:58:29.449 --> 00:58:32.889 priorities are. And he's been given a free hand. in 1084 00:58:33.030 --> 00:58:35.679 order to execute that sort of policy. So I think 1085 00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:37.539 you have that strain. And then I think you have 1086 00:58:37.739 --> 00:58:41.579 a Trump is just the most self-dealing corrupt person on 1087 00:58:41.619 --> 00:58:46.360 the entire planet, who also has Kushner and Witkoff and 1088 00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:50.280 these other characters who are also focused on looting and 1089 00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:54.530 self-dealing as the other primary impetus within the administration. And 1090 00:58:54.550 --> 00:58:56.590 I think when you put all of that together, and 1091 00:58:56.630 --> 00:58:59.730 also Trump's desire to be this big man in history, 1092 00:58:59.809 --> 00:59:03.280 and he wants this world-changing legacy, whether that is for 1093 00:59:03.340 --> 00:59:05.039 good or for ill. I think that's part of what 1094 00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:08.389 explains the Iran war in particular. But when you put 1095 00:59:08.530 --> 00:59:12.500 the ideologues together, with the self-dealing together with the total 1096 00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:15.460 lack of any guardrails on this train at this point, 1097 00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:18.519 that's how you end up with this situation. And yes, 1098 00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:20.690 to your point, I mean, not only was it predictable, 1099 00:59:20.829 --> 00:59:21.909 it was predicted. 1100 00:59:28.710 --> 00:59:31.079 Mint Mobile. And it's important that you throw in the 1101 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:35.000 mobile there. There's Mint. We all know what that's about. 1102 00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.519 But Mint Mobile, what we're talking about here is a 1103 00:59:39.619 --> 00:59:45.389 phone company that's delivering you their product for less than 1104 00:59:45.429 --> 00:59:47.869 what other phone companies are doing. I don't know what 1105 00:59:47.909 --> 00:59:49.929 you want out of a phone company. What I want 1106 00:59:49.969 --> 00:59:52.369 out of a phone company is deliver me a good product. 1107 00:59:53.050 --> 00:59:57.219 for less and don't bother me mint mobile plan 15 1108 00:59:57.219 --> 01:00:03.820 bucks a month 15 bucks a month what is it 1109 01:00:03.820 --> 01:00:07.019 1992 15 bucks a month high speed data unlimited talking 1110 01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:09.320 text delivered on the nation's largest 5g network you can 1111 01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:11.710 even you want to bring your current phone and your 1112 01:00:11.789 --> 01:00:15.989 current number do it get rid of your overpriced wireless 1113 01:00:16.010 --> 01:00:19.230 with mint mobile it's not diabolical it's just good value 1114 01:00:20.570 --> 01:00:22.550 Get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month. 1115 01:00:22.570 --> 01:00:28.789 Go to mintmobile.com slash TWS. That's mintmobile.com slash TWS. Get 1116 01:00:28.809 --> 01:00:33.119 your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com 1117 01:00:33.139 --> 01:00:38.300 slash TWS. That's it. There's no catch. Upfront payments of 1118 01:00:38.300 --> 01:00:39.920 $ 45 for three months, $ 90 for six months, or $ 180 1119 01:00:39.880

--> 01:00:45.599 for 12 months. Plan required. $ 15 per month equivalent. Taxes 1120 01:00:45.619 --> 01:00:48.980 and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. 1121 01:00:49.219 --> 01:00:51.500 May slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 1122 01:00:51.500 --> 01:00:56.480 gigabyte hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. 1123 01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:06.429 See mintmobile.com. I really hope they speed that up. So 1124 01:01:06.489 --> 01:01:09.409 given all that, and I think that's a summation that 1125 01:01:09.449 --> 01:01:13.250 I would not disagree with, Why is it that the 1126 01:01:13.309 --> 01:01:17.269 Democrats are having such a difficult time? They don't control anything. 1127 01:01:17.849 --> 01:01:19.829 They don't control the Senate. They don't control the Congress. 1128 01:01:19.849 --> 01:01:22.489 They don't control the court and they don't control the 1129 01:01:22.550 --> 01:01:25.429 White House. So what is it about the way that 1130 01:01:25.510 --> 01:01:31.630 Democrats have governed that has allowed this, in my mind, 1131 01:01:31.670 --> 01:01:35.949 cynical and corrupt experiment to take such hold? And when 1132 01:01:35.989 --> 01:01:40.219 will accountability come for that? Because I don't think that 1133 01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:44.630 Trump arose for no reason. I think people were dissatisfied 1134 01:01:45.409 --> 01:01:48.750 with a government that did not seem to be responsive 1135 01:01:49.130 --> 01:01:51.780 to the needs of the people and was at a remove. 1136 01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:55.500 Yes, I agree. And I think what we've seen at 1137 01:01:55.539 --> 01:02:01.130 this point is a sort of limp, status quo, decorum-obsessed 1138 01:02:01.289 --> 01:02:04.650 liberalism is not going to be sufficient to fight what 1139 01:02:04.710 --> 01:02:07.210 I see as rising forces of fascism in the country. 1140 01:02:07.250 --> 01:02:09.469 They weren't historically. You know, when we had a previous 1141 01:02:09.929 --> 01:02:12.860 rise of a fascist movement in this country, it took FDR, 1142 01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:15.239 it took the New Deal coalition, a sort of experiment 1143 01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:17.719 in social democracy here in the U.S. 1144 01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:22.679 Forget about rising fascism, though. How about just like rural broadband? 1145 01:02:23.739 --> 01:02:26.159 I'm not even talking about a party that is not 1146 01:02:26.300 --> 01:02:29.820 up to the task of fighting the Nazis. I'm talking 1147 01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:32.110 about a party that is not up to the task 1148 01:02:32.889 --> 01:02:39.230 of competently governing and easing the difficulties that people are 1149 01:02:39.250 --> 01:02:41.829 facing in their day-to-day lives, not being responsive to their needs. 1150 01:02:43.010 --> 01:02:43.949 See, I would pick up on that. 1151 01:02:43.969 --> 01:02:49.159 Not only not responsive to their needs, but actively gaslighting them. 1152 01:02:49.750 --> 01:02:52.150 about their needs. I mean, we could go back to 1153 01:02:52.170 --> 01:02:56.150 the financial crisis and the response to that, which was 1154 01:02:56.449 --> 01:03:01.239 too little, where there was zero accountability to Wall Street criminals, 1155 01:03:01.699 --> 01:03:06.179 where homeowners were completely screwed. And you can see the 1156 01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:10.519 seeds of that dissatisfaction. And now we've got two generations, 1157 01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:13.699 millennials and Zoomers, and soon it'll be Gen Alpha as well, 1158 01:03:13.980 --> 01:03:16.059 who are being shut down of the American dream, who 1159 01:03:16.179 --> 01:03:19.869 can't aspire to buy a house, who see education costs, 1160 01:03:19.889 --> 01:03:21.449 you know, they're told to go get a college degree. 1161 01:03:21.489 --> 01:03:24.349 That college degree is wildly expensive. They're saddled with debt 1162 01:03:24.389 --> 01:03:25.909 and then they can't get a good job out of it. 1163 01:03:26.369 --> 01:03:28.190 A bunch of AI oligarchs are telling them they're going 1164 01:03:28.210 --> 01:03:30.789 to take their jobs anyway. And there has been a 1165 01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:36.769 wildly insufficient at best response from the Democratic Party establishment 1166 01:03:37.070 --> 01:03:40.420 who have been more interested in palliative care for America 1167 01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:43.019 and the working class of America in particular than. 1168 01:03:42.940 --> 01:03:45.519 Actually solving problems. 1169 01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:49.219 And governing pretty much and governing effectively. And so, you know, 1170 01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:52.139 one of the things that we've seen in the small 1171 01:03:52.179 --> 01:03:55.789 pilot experiment of Zoran Mamdani in New York City, where, look, 1172 01:03:55.829 --> 01:03:57.710 you're the mayor of a city. It's a big city, 1173 01:03:57.750 --> 01:04:00.230 but you've got limited powers, is I do think you 1174 01:04:00.269 --> 01:04:02.849 see a different approach to governance where there's a real 1175 01:04:02.909 --> 01:04:05.210 commitment to, no, we're going to make promises. We're going 1176 01:04:05.230 --> 01:04:07.360 to deliver on those promises. People are going to feel 1177 01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:09.780 the impact of government in a positive way. I'm sure 1178 01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:12.099 you probably saw the story. Someone posted a picture of 1179 01:04:12.139 --> 01:04:14.420 a pothole on, I think it was Instagram. And by 1180 01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:15.960 the end of the day, he had come and filled 1181 01:04:16.019 --> 01:04:19.320 that pothole. It's something small, but it makes people feel like, oh, 1182 01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:22.849 the tax dollars that I'm paying, the government that I elected, 1183 01:04:23.250 --> 01:04:25.630 they actually are trying to make my life better in 1184 01:04:25.670 --> 01:04:28.610 a way that materially improves my quality

of life. And 1185 01:04:28.670 --> 01:04:31.949 Democrats have become completely divorced from that. And then, you know, 1186 01:04:31.969 --> 01:04:33.710 the other part of this, of course, hangs over all 1187 01:04:33.730 --> 01:04:35.179 of it is money and politics. I mean, this is 1188 01:04:35.260 --> 01:04:37.440 really the root cause of so much of it, where 1189 01:04:37.619 --> 01:04:41.949 they are beholden to corporations, they're beholden to special interests, 1190 01:04:41.969 --> 01:04:45.590 whether it's APAC or big tech, et cetera, that keeps 1191 01:04:45.630 --> 01:04:48.510 them at odds with the needs and the desires of 1192 01:04:48.550 --> 01:04:50.590 the American people. And so that's why I've been so 1193 01:04:50.670 --> 01:04:53.489 heartened to see this reckoning that is happening between the 1194 01:04:53.530 --> 01:04:56.539 Democratic base and the Democratic establishment in the party. 1195 01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.760 Sagar, is that, how do you see the left now? 1196 01:05:01.219 --> 01:05:02.960 Do you buy into the framing? You know, there's a 1197 01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:06.699 lot of talk about now they're socialists and very rarely 1198 01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:10.980 does anyone ever talk about what socialism is. There's, it's 1199 01:05:11.019 --> 01:05:13.760 just a word and no one really describes, you know, 1200 01:05:14.099 --> 01:05:19.210 in terms of specific policy, what socialist about it, how 1201 01:05:19.250 --> 01:05:22.789 do you see the left? What would be your, you know, 1202 01:05:22.969 --> 01:05:28.010 greatest criticism of them? And, and what would be your 1203 01:05:28.110 --> 01:05:31.519 fix to that? How could you see them Right. Recovering 1204 01:05:31.579 --> 01:05:31.880 from that. 1205 01:05:32.059 --> 01:05:34.199 So, I mean, look, I'm I do not speak for 1206 01:05:34.219 --> 01:05:36.780 the right. So I'm a very unique person. I don't 1207 01:05:36.820 --> 01:05:39.329 really care about Hassan Piker. I did an event with him. 1208 01:05:39.510 --> 01:05:42.070 He was fine. We're perfectly cordial. I actually think he's 1209 01:05:42.250 --> 01:05:44.789 not nearly as radical as a lot of people think 1210 01:05:44.829 --> 01:05:46.909 that he is. And so I don't know if I'm 1211 01:05:46.929 --> 01:05:49.760 the best person to answer, but like from my perspective, 1212 01:05:49.969 --> 01:05:53.420 here's what I would say is that fundamentally what I think, 1213 01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:55.500 you know, you guys talked about, you know, there's been 1214 01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:57.239 a lot of like, oh, cultural issues and all of 1215 01:05:57.260 --> 01:05:59.860 that are nonsense. At the end of the day, there's 1216 01:05:59.900 --> 01:06:05.119 only one movement in recent history that won households under $ 100, 000. 1217 01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:07.860 That was Donald Trump in the 2024 campaign, which he 1218 01:06:07.889 --> 01:06:12.030 won the popular vote. The DSA and leftists is predominantly 1219 01:06:12.070 --> 01:06:16.289 a coalition of downwardly mobile white liberals. A lot of 1220 01:06:16.409 --> 01:06:19.050 people who don't have a four-year college degree find the 1221 01:06:19.090 --> 01:06:21.980 movement distasteful or distrust them. We saw that just what 1222 01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:25.880 happened in the Abdul El-Sayed campaign. in the primary election 1223 01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:30.019 where you had older black voters or traditional political constituency 1224 01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:33.039 and households that don't have four-year college did not vote 1225 01:06:33.079 --> 01:06:35.139 for him. So a lot of this. 1226 01:06:35.539 --> 01:06:37.860 Still vote. I mean, that was a democratic primary, but 1227 01:06:38.019 --> 01:06:38.239 go ahead. 1228 01:06:38.519 --> 01:06:41.639 Right. But that's emblematic also in the general election results 1229 01:06:41.659 --> 01:06:44.480 of 2024. So if we try to transpose those two things, 1230 01:06:44.659 --> 01:06:47.340 the most likely predictor of what your politics are in 1231 01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:50.639 this country is whether you have four-year college degree or not. 1232 01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:54.420 And if four-year college degree is also correlated highly with income, 1233 01:06:54.809 --> 01:06:59.329 The Democratic Party, while may having economic positions that supposedly 1234 01:06:59.349 --> 01:07:02.550 benefit the working class, is not convinced the working class 1235 01:07:02.650 --> 01:07:05.809 of that. That's just empirically true. And so that's kind 1236 01:07:05.849 --> 01:07:09.639 of like my criticism, if you will. If it's, you know, 1237 01:07:09.739 --> 01:07:11.940 Crystal gave her speech, so I'll give my worst case, 1238 01:07:12.380 --> 01:07:15.920 you know, my worst faith interpretation would be it's class cosplay. 1239 01:07:16.059 --> 01:07:21.170 I mean, fundamentally, it is some cosplay of dressing up, 1240 01:07:21.639 --> 01:07:25.210 you know, said... you know, basically woke one type policy 1241 01:07:25.269 --> 01:07:26.010 and or rhetoric. 1242 01:07:26.110 --> 01:07:27.730 To explain that. What is woke one? 1243 01:07:27.750 --> 01:07:29.469 Yeah, this is a whole thing, right? 1244 01:07:29.489 --> 01:07:32.269 I mean, also, let's be fair. Like, I mean, Trump 1245 01:07:32.309 --> 01:07:33.989 is the one who puts on the apron and sits 1246 01:07:34.030 --> 01:07:37.050 in the McDonald's wing. Like, talk about cosplay. Like, you know, 1247 01:07:37.090 --> 01:07:38.030 how many times can you hear? 1248 01:07:38.090 --> 01:07:39.650 Depends what type of cosplay we're cosplaying. 1249 01:07:39.670 --> 01:07:41.550 He's a blue collar billionaire. And you're like, yeah, I 1250 01:07:41.590 --> 01:07:42.289 don't think that's a thing. 1251 01:07:42.309 --> 01:07:45.809 He's cosplaying Norman Rockwell America, obviously, which is, you know, 1252 01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:46.969 highly effective. 1253 01:07:47.139 --> 01:07:47.389

All right. 1254 01:07:47.429 --> 01:07:48.940 So you have to grapple with that if you want 1255 01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:53.679 to win in America's in an American politics today. And so, yeah, 1256 01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:55.400 I mean, I think, and we're talking to the whole 1257 01:07:55.420 --> 01:07:56.510 woke one debate. 1258 01:07:57.170 --> 01:07:59.349 Yeah. Tell me what you mean by that, because I'm not. 1259 01:07:59.269 --> 01:08:00.010 Sure I understand. 1260 01:08:00.110 --> 01:08:02.969 AOC recently went on television and she said, quote, woke 1261 01:08:03.110 --> 01:08:05.929 one was crazy. And it was in relation to Francesca Hong, 1262 01:08:05.969 --> 01:08:08.760 who's a DSA candidate who is very likely to win, 1263 01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:12.119 I think tonight was primary in Wisconsin in the gubernatorial 1264 01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:14.739 election in which I don't have the exact tweet in 1265 01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:17.119 front of me had said something along the lines of 1266 01:08:17.220 --> 01:08:20.649 critical of Thanksgiving and She gives an interview in which 1267 01:08:20.689 --> 01:08:23.300 they said, so do you want to cancel Thanksgiving? And 1268 01:08:23.350 --> 01:08:26.850 gives a word salad level of an answer. okay, might 1269 01:08:26.930 --> 01:08:29.609 seem nonsensical. John, you and I both know that in 1270 01:08:29.630 --> 01:08:33.029 this country, that is not exactly how you're going to appeal, 1271 01:08:33.100 --> 01:08:35.819 quote unquote, to the very working class that we're talking 1272 01:08:35.859 --> 01:08:36.279 about here. 1273 01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:37.199 My favorite holiday. 1274 01:08:37.260 --> 01:08:40.079 Yeah, it's most people's favorite holiday. It's most normal people's 1275 01:08:40.319 --> 01:08:44.079 favorite holiday. And so that comes across as deeply disconnected 1276 01:08:44.180 --> 01:08:47.579 and obsessed with, you know, what some activist is either 1277 01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:50.359 going to say towards you or your genuine belief that 1278 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:53.859 Thanksgiving or just like white society, which she's also talked 1279 01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.739 a lot about her own like biracial son and potentially 1280 01:08:56.779 --> 01:09:00.359 being ashamed of that, like that is deeply off putting, 1281 01:09:00.500 --> 01:09:03.010 I think, to a lot of people. And so that 1282 01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:05.649 is where like to the extent that I have a critique, 1283 01:09:05.789 --> 01:09:08.710 I guess, is they're saying, oh, woke one was crazy. 1284 01:09:08.750 --> 01:09:10.590 And it's like, no, but you still believe many of 1285 01:09:10.649 --> 01:09:12.550 the things that woke one. consisted of. 1286 01:09:12.829 --> 01:09:15.170 She's still saying that now? No, no, no. 1287 01:09:15.250 --> 01:09:18.710 What I'm saying is AOC had said Woke One was crazy. 1288 01:09:18.890 --> 01:09:20.949 As in the rhetoric that we use, there was an 1289 01:09:21.130 --> 01:09:21.909 Overton window. 1290 01:09:22.449 --> 01:09:24.069 Oh, okay. All right. I see what you're saying. 1291 01:09:24.140 --> 01:09:26.420 And she made it clear that much of the rhetoric 1292 01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:30.399 that was used from 2020 was bad, right? And I'm like, okay, 1293 01:09:30.460 --> 01:09:33.939 that's fine. But- kind of, John, as you're saying. If 1294 01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:37.149 the rhetoric was bad, well, what about the idea? Do 1295 01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:40.989 you still believe in defund the police? Zoran had explicitly 1296 01:09:41.029 --> 01:09:43.449 apologized to the cops and said, no, I'm sorry I 1297 01:09:43.569 --> 01:09:46.689 said that. And so, okay, that's fine for people like me. 1298 01:09:46.949 --> 01:09:49.119 But isn't on the flip side of that, isn't going 1299 01:09:49.140 --> 01:09:52.579 through people's old tweets, isn't that what the right hated about? 1300 01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:56.220 Absolutely fair. Fair. You're right. It's part of cancel culture. 1301 01:09:56.460 --> 01:10:00.399 It has the right... Embrace cancel culture, yes, especially whenever 1302 01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:03.319 it comes to anti-Semitism and all of this. 1303 01:10:03.590 --> 01:10:04.229 Or Bud Light. 1304 01:10:04.319 --> 01:10:05.229 Or Bud Light, sure. 1305 01:10:05.250 --> 01:10:08.710 But yeah, I get what you're saying. Is so much 1306 01:10:08.829 --> 01:10:13.930 of woke now or cancel culture or anything also just 1307 01:10:14.569 --> 01:10:21.369 the ubiquity of social media, meaning we've democratized criticism. So 1308 01:10:21.590 --> 01:10:26.310 social media makes its money on outrage, conflict, all those things. 1309 01:10:27.810 --> 01:10:33.159 different things, isn't it just a reflection of there is 1310 01:10:33.220 --> 01:10:37.779 no such thing as non-cancel culture because everything that you say, 1311 01:10:38.859 --> 01:10:43.010 somebody will try and seek advantage of it and highlight 1312 01:10:43.050 --> 01:10:46.689 it and amplify it to help them do that. 1313 01:10:46.750 --> 01:10:47.130 Certainly. 1314 01:10:47.270 --> 01:10:51.989 And I also don't understand how, you know, the idea that, well, 1315 01:10:52.130 --> 01:10:55.239 she said Thanksgiving should be canceled, so she's crazy, but 1316 01:10:55.460 --> 01:10:59.020 he said Trump won the 2020 election, but that's fine. 1317 01:10:59.220 --> 01:10:59.420 Right. 1318 01:10:59.579 --> 01:11:00.800 We're all just going to go along with it. 1319 01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:02.659 Is it fine though? Well, no, but I'm saying- I 1320 01:11:02.899 --> 01:11:05.380 think people who say that get plenty of criticism though. 1321 01:11:05.460 --> 01:11:07.119 I don't think it's fine. I don't think that's true. 1322 01:11:07.159 --> 01:11:09.840 But they get criticism, but there's no accountability. It's not 1323 01:11:09.880 --> 01:11:12.739 like they don't still get confirmed by the Senate. Okay. 1324 01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:14.869 It's not

that they get- They can sit in a 1325 01:11:14.949 --> 01:11:15.750 confirmation here. 1326 01:11:15.789 --> 01:11:19.569 For example, Mike Rogers is an election denier. And I 1327 01:11:19.609 --> 01:11:21.510 haven't seen all the hand-wringing about like, oh, my God, 1328 01:11:21.550 --> 01:11:22.630 is he going to be able to win and win 1329 01:11:23.590 --> 01:11:26.289 over moderate voters because he's such an extremist on this? 1330 01:11:26.510 --> 01:11:28.850 See, I'm not sure that's true. I see that story 1331 01:11:28.890 --> 01:11:29.689 like two days ago. 1332 01:11:29.729 --> 01:11:32.630 What I've heard is all about how extreme Abdul is because, oh, 1333 01:11:32.649 --> 01:11:34.300 my God, he hung out with Hassan Piker. 1334 01:11:34.380 --> 01:11:35.140 How dare he? 1335 01:11:35.649 --> 01:11:39.779 Versus Mike Rogers, who actually holds these views himself and 1336 01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:42.859 has expressed them multiple times, that's not framed as being 1337 01:11:42.939 --> 01:11:45.470 too extreme for a moderate voter. 1338 01:11:45.529 --> 01:11:48.710 But I'm sure he doesn't actually hold those views. Again, 1339 01:11:48.729 --> 01:11:52.000 it's cynical. He doesn't actually hold them. I'm sure he's 1340 01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:52.859 not an idiot. Right. 1341 01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:54.619 But it doesn't really matter at the end of the 1342 01:11:54.659 --> 01:11:57.090 day whether he believes it in his heart of hearts 1343 01:11:57.489 --> 01:11:59.970 or whether it's a cynical posture. He's going to act 1344 01:12:00.029 --> 01:12:02.029 and behave in the same way because he's going to 1345 01:12:02.050 --> 01:12:04.649 be a rubber stamp for Donald Trump at the end 1346 01:12:04.670 --> 01:12:07.489 of the day. So, no, I think woke is, you know, 1347 01:12:07.529 --> 01:12:10.520 and especially the current iteration of woke coming from the 1348 01:12:10.560 --> 01:12:11.220 Trump administration. 1349 01:12:11.260 --> 01:12:14.300 Now, what's the current? So what's if that's woke point one, 1350 01:12:14.340 --> 01:12:15.159 what's woke point two? 1351 01:12:15.699 --> 01:12:18.000 Well, that's, I think, up for debate. But currently we're 1352 01:12:18.020 --> 01:12:21.739 living through a Trump regime that wants to crush any 1353 01:12:21.819 --> 01:12:24.640 sort of dissent. The place where they've come down the 1354 01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:27.300 hardest is on any sort of criticism of Israel, which 1355 01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:30.340 is characterized as being anti-Semitic. And they've used it as 1356 01:12:30.380 --> 01:12:35.649 an excuse to jail, to crush protests, to deport. And 1357 01:12:36.029 --> 01:12:40.149 as part of their NSPM 7 project, they also use 1358 01:12:40.170 --> 01:12:43.369 that to label you as effectively a terrorist and subject 1359 01:12:43.409 --> 01:12:46.920 to potential government action and surveillance. So it goes far 1360 01:12:46.979 --> 01:12:51.420 beyond some like social media cancellation campaign at this point. 1361 01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:55.000 And I think really does expose how at its core, 1362 01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:59.199 this is really about controlling the bounds of debate, about 1363 01:12:59.619 --> 01:13:04.710 scaring people into compliance, you know, against an unpopular policy 1364 01:13:05.090 --> 01:13:07.649 and about maintaining power. So I think that's the way 1365 01:13:07.689 --> 01:13:09.310 that it's really been deployed by Trump. 1366 01:13:09.329 --> 01:13:11.289 Does that sound like woke 2.0 to you, Sagar? 1367 01:13:11.449 --> 01:13:16.619 It's this is the difficulty. I accept Crystal's entire critique 1368 01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:21.359 as that is the definition of woke. I've described the anti-Semitism, 1369 01:13:21.880 --> 01:13:25.520 you know, freak out in the administration as like Ibrahim X. 1370 01:13:25.579 --> 01:13:30.310 Kendi's dream come true, like going after, you know, universities 1371 01:13:30.350 --> 01:13:35.170 and saying you're not sufficiently and not anti-anti-Semitic enough. I 1372 01:13:35.189 --> 01:13:37.310 think it's outrageous. I think it's obviously a violation and 1373 01:13:37.350 --> 01:13:40.590 all of that of free speech. Woke 2.0 is what 1374 01:13:40.789 --> 01:13:44.210 I think is, you know, for example, Abdul El-Sayed, the 1375 01:13:44.229 --> 01:13:47.899 candidate in Michigan, literally claimed that he'd never said defund 1376 01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:50.840 the police. He did say it. He lied about that. Now, 1377 01:13:50.979 --> 01:13:54.069 that's an important thing. Okay, but John, he said it, 1378 01:13:54.170 --> 01:13:56.189 and he lied that he didn't say it. He deleted 1379 01:13:56.229 --> 01:13:58.529 his tweet, and that's fine. That may not be objectionable 1380 01:13:58.590 --> 01:14:00.470 to you, but it certainly is objectionable. 1381 01:14:00.670 --> 01:14:03.170 We've all lived through the campaign ads of guys on 1382 01:14:03.210 --> 01:14:05.840 the left having to walk with police and go like... 1383 01:14:06.229 --> 01:14:07.930 It's actually, they're quite nice. 1384 01:14:08.220 --> 01:14:11.100 Well, I actually think that's healthy and good because it 1385 01:14:11.300 --> 01:14:14.220 establishes good norms in society as opposed to, you know, 1386 01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:16.260 like wanting to defund and or ban police. 1387 01:14:16.439 --> 01:14:21.430 Well, that's, I never understood why progressives reject safety, public 1388 01:14:21.510 --> 01:14:25.710 safety as a non-progressive value. I always look at it 1389 01:14:25.850 --> 01:14:31.609 as don't people in the most economically devastated areas deserve 1390 01:14:31.649 --> 01:14:36.020 the same level of law and order that people in 1391 01:14:36.060 --> 01:14:41.359 Beverly Hills enjoy. I never understood why you would hold 1392 01:14:41.399 --> 01:14:44.720 back on that. But Tucker, the anti-Semitism thing is kind 1393 01:14:44.739 --> 01:14:48.939 of interesting to

me as someone who's received pretty good 1394 01:14:48.979 --> 01:14:52.319 anti-Semitic stuff and been accused of being it myself. You know, 1395 01:14:52.350 --> 01:14:54.939 if you look at the Twitter feed, I'll always get like, 1396 01:14:54.979 --> 01:14:58.289 you're a dirty Jew, along with you're a capo. Like, 1397 01:14:58.789 --> 01:15:02.529 you get it all. I'm interested on the right, this 1398 01:15:02.630 --> 01:15:07.680 idea of you know, they fight anti-Semitism when very clearly 1399 01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:12.800 they hire people. You know, there's the Republican, young Republican 1400 01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:15.770 club in New York where they go through their chat 1401 01:15:15.789 --> 01:15:21.289 history and it's just vile, like flat out anti-Semitism. Or J.D. 1402 01:15:21.310 --> 01:15:25.250 Vance will say, look, the Nazi jokes, who doesn't like 1403 01:15:25.369 --> 01:15:28.340 to have a Nazi joke? I don't think we should 1404 01:15:28.380 --> 01:15:33.539 hold that against people. While basically forcing universities to pay 1405 01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:37.720 them millions and millions of dollars it's again can you 1406 01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:42.970 understand why the whole thing feels cynical. 1407 01:15:42.930 --> 01:15:44.909 Sure yeah and you're right because it is cynical because 1408 01:15:44.930 --> 01:15:47.329 it's not about anti-semitism it's about israel that's what it's 1409 01:15:47.369 --> 01:15:49.489 about it's about the unholy alliance. 1410 01:15:49.189 --> 01:15:52.310 But can't you understand now how writ large the whole 1411 01:15:52.439 --> 01:15:54.479 operation seems cynical. 1412 01:15:54.939 --> 01:15:56.699 Yeah, but I would say that a lot of Democratic 1413 01:15:56.819 --> 01:15:58.270 stuff is just as cynical, right? 1414 01:15:58.350 --> 01:16:02.510 And so then– Very well be, but you'd have to 1415 01:16:02.590 --> 01:16:05.489 tell me those– you'd have to make those points to 1416 01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:07.979 me as well. I could tell you what's cynical and 1417 01:16:08.020 --> 01:16:11.060 what's not, but I don't hear a lot of specificity 1418 01:16:11.220 --> 01:16:12.560 in the criticism. 1419 01:16:12.560 --> 01:16:15.770 100% fair. How much time do we have? I think– 1420 01:16:16.569 --> 01:16:17.090 Not much. 1421 01:16:17.130 --> 01:16:18.010 You're busy people. 1422 01:16:18.689 --> 01:16:20.250 I think to your I do want to pick up 1423 01:16:20.310 --> 01:16:21.130 on the anti-Semitism. 1424 01:16:21.250 --> 01:16:21.449 Sure. 1425 01:16:21.489 --> 01:16:23.750 Just because I do want people to I want this 1426 01:16:23.810 --> 01:16:28.020 to be emphasized is it does expose the lie at 1427 01:16:28.060 --> 01:16:30.000 the heart of it. As you just said, that any 1428 01:16:30.039 --> 01:16:33.840 of this is really about anti-Semitism or any genuine concern. 1429 01:16:34.300 --> 01:16:38.649 It's about Israel. And it is just the pro-Israel alliance 1430 01:16:39.130 --> 01:16:42.810 with the Trump administration. And, you know, Chris, you eloquently 1431 01:16:43.270 --> 01:16:46.140 talked about woke 2.0. and how it's about power. I 1432 01:16:46.180 --> 01:16:50.189 think Woke 1.0 was also about power, cultural takeover, in 1433 01:16:50.229 --> 01:16:53.090 order to defend an unpopular policy. So I think they 1434 01:16:53.109 --> 01:16:55.449 both have two things in common. And in both cases, 1435 01:16:55.649 --> 01:16:58.609 I think both are genuinely not about what they allegedly 1436 01:16:58.630 --> 01:17:02.109 were supposed to be, anti-Semitism and or racism. I think 1437 01:17:02.170 --> 01:17:04.850 both are about cultural power. Who gets to have said 1438 01:17:04.890 --> 01:17:07.689 power in our society? Again, I would say I would 1439 01:17:07.890 --> 01:17:11.270 never have predicted it, John. And perhaps that's the dupe 1440 01:17:11.989 --> 01:17:13.800 in me, but You know, how can you come up 1441 01:17:13.840 --> 01:17:15.960 with people who've been talking about free speech for 10 1442 01:17:15.960 --> 01:17:19.239 years only to then, when they have power, deport people 1443 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:21.399 for what they have said? I would not have predicted that, never, 1444 01:17:21.550 --> 01:17:23.489 in a million years. And so I do have to 1445 01:17:23.510 --> 01:17:26.390 be forced to accept some of your own criticism of 1446 01:17:26.409 --> 01:17:26.909 what you're saying. 1447 01:17:27.090 --> 01:17:32.189 I'm just saying, like Donald Trump said to Zuckerberg, Mark Zuckerberg, 1448 01:17:33.810 --> 01:17:37.470 Zuckerbucks is what threw the election. And so if he 1449 01:17:37.510 --> 01:17:40.340 tries that again, I'm going to put him in jail. Mm-hmm. 1450 01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.619 I said that to Elon Musk. I said, so you 1451 01:17:45.680 --> 01:17:49.840 said free speech is your line. You're supporting a guy 1452 01:17:50.140 --> 01:17:54.479 who's literally threatened to jail somebody if they exercise their 1453 01:17:54.500 --> 01:17:58.619 free speech while you're, as a social media mogul, doing 1454 01:17:58.819 --> 01:18:03.340 far more direct electioneering, giving away a million dollars here, 1455 01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:09.100 setting up an algorithm that favors conservative content. How can 1456 01:18:09.140 --> 01:18:12.380 you justify that? And he says, oh, Trump has just 1457 01:18:12.779 --> 01:18:18.170 That's just talk. So I guess my point is, you 1458 01:18:18.210 --> 01:18:20.529 see the clues you want to see, Crystal, and the 1459 01:18:20.550 --> 01:18:24.399 same could be said from the left. If somebody was saying, yeah, man, 1460 01:18:24.489 --> 01:18:27.359 I'm going to open all the borders, and then that's 1461 01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:31.199 what happens. And you say, when you say, well, they 1462 01:18:31.239 --> 01:18:34.119 said it, how can you pretend that they didn't? 1463 01:18:36.590 --> 01:18:40.779 Well, yeah. I mean, I think to me, it's not

1464 01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:43.399 just about listening to the rhetoric. It's also looking at 1465 01:18:43.500 --> 01:18:47.550 the actions. And, you know, I mean, look, it's no 1466 01:18:47.590 --> 01:18:50.159 secret Trump behaves like an authoritarian. He does it in 1467 01:18:50.229 --> 01:18:52.869 his business. He did it in Trump 1.0. You want 1468 01:18:52.890 --> 01:18:56.149 to just shoot protesters in the knees. That's hardly pro 1469 01:18:56.210 --> 01:19:00.250 First Amendment, pro free speech type of activity. And on 1470 01:19:00.510 --> 01:19:03.850 anti-Semitism specifically, I mean, there's always been even at the 1471 01:19:03.869 --> 01:19:07.050 height of, oh, we're pro free speech, etc., there's always 1472 01:19:07.069 --> 01:19:09.739 been a carve out for Israel. I mean, just look 1473 01:19:09.779 --> 01:19:12.779 at these anti-BDS laws across the country. Look at the 1474 01:19:12.819 --> 01:19:17.180 number of professors who had their careers attacked by free 1475 01:19:17.220 --> 01:19:20.649 speech maven Barry Weiss as one example. So there's always 1476 01:19:20.689 --> 01:19:24.590 been a carve out there because it's about protecting Israel. 1477 01:19:24.649 --> 01:19:27.930 And it's also about a lot of the influence they've 1478 01:19:27.949 --> 01:19:30.689 successfully been able to wield, which is not unique to 1479 01:19:30.710 --> 01:19:32.920 the Israel lobby, but is very central to the way 1480 01:19:32.960 --> 01:19:34.520 that our politics ultimately operate. 1481 01:19:34.800 --> 01:19:35.380 I totally agree. 1482 01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:37.020 Sagar, you were going to say something. I'm sorry I 1483 01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:37.359 cut you off. 1484 01:19:37.699 --> 01:19:39.100 Oh, honestly, I don't even remember. 1485 01:19:42.220 --> 01:19:44.119 That's a perfect place to stop. 1486 01:19:45.180 --> 01:19:48.359 Hold on, John. If I don't say that my husband, 1487 01:19:48.399 --> 01:19:50.569 Kyle Kalinsky, wants you to run for president and is 1488 01:19:50.590 --> 01:19:52.390 your biggest booster, then he's going to divorce me. 1489 01:19:52.470 --> 01:19:53.350 So I have to put that out there. 1490 01:19:53.369 --> 01:19:58.609 Oh, dear God. Don't let the divorce. I so want 1491 01:19:58.649 --> 01:20:01.270 you two to work out, but I don't want to. 1492 01:20:03.159 --> 01:20:04.920 Come on, the country needs you, John. 1493 01:20:04.979 --> 01:20:09.840 Do you guys talk about, in your mind, is there 1494 01:20:10.260 --> 01:20:14.960 a leader that you think could arise that could put 1495 01:20:15.079 --> 01:20:20.039 behind us this weaponized environment we currently live in, run 1496 01:20:20.119 --> 01:20:25.359 on a platform of sane policy, competently executed? Do you 1497 01:20:25.399 --> 01:20:29.020 think they could do that? And is there someone out 1498 01:20:29.060 --> 01:20:32.149 there that you view as having that potential? 1499 01:20:32.619 --> 01:20:34.979 Yes, I think you could do

that, John. Yes, I 1500 01:20:35.010 --> 01:20:38.520 think you could do that. Well, no, I was just 1501 01:20:38.539 --> 01:20:40.680 going to say there is an agenda for the taking 1502 01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:42.680 for someone. I don't know who that someone is. 1503 01:20:42.899 --> 01:20:45.189 No question. Certainly on the left. It's wide open. 1504 01:20:45.279 --> 01:20:47.949 There is an agenda for the taking that is about 1505 01:20:48.170 --> 01:20:51.729 economic populism. Yes. It's about pushing back against the tech oligarchs, 1506 01:20:52.109 --> 01:20:54.649 fighting back against these data centers that are taking over 1507 01:20:54.710 --> 01:20:58.760 communities and which are hated by left right center. Doesn't 1508 01:20:58.909 --> 01:21:03.079 matter about a foreign policy, which is about investing in 1509 01:21:03.439 --> 01:21:07.739 America rather than fighting these oligarchs. horrific, immoral foreign wars 1510 01:21:07.880 --> 01:21:11.319 and backstopping a genocide. To me, there is a broad 1511 01:21:11.500 --> 01:21:16.100 FDR-style coalition that is there for the taking if you 1512 01:21:16.140 --> 01:21:19.479 have the right person who has credibility in expressing those 1513 01:21:19.510 --> 01:21:20.510 values in the right way. 1514 01:21:20.970 --> 01:21:22.170 Sagar? 1515 01:21:22.210 --> 01:21:25.449 I don't know about a specific person. I do have 1516 01:21:25.489 --> 01:21:28.590 a general kind of theory. I love to read history books, 1517 01:21:29.090 --> 01:21:31.060 is that we talked about the 60s and the 70s. 1518 01:21:32.029 --> 01:21:34.010 And one of the most unique parts of Jimmy Carter's 1519 01:21:34.069 --> 01:21:36.170 rise is that if you had gone a few years before, 1520 01:21:36.409 --> 01:21:38.720 nobody would have predicted that somebody like him could have 1521 01:21:38.729 --> 01:21:41.300 been elected. Now, let's ignore how he actually governed and 1522 01:21:41.500 --> 01:21:44.039 kind of the promise of Carter itself. 1523 01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:46.939 It was an oil shock. All right. Yeah, sure. 1524 01:21:47.060 --> 01:21:51.300 It wasn't just oil. But I do think a really 1525 01:21:51.359 --> 01:21:55.510 interesting idea is that the Trump era began with the escalator. 1526 01:21:55.670 --> 01:21:59.550 The celebrity politics era began with Obama that we've now 1527 01:21:59.689 --> 01:22:03.970 lived with 20 so years of Of celebrity politics that 1528 01:22:04.010 --> 01:22:06.609 an inevitable swing back would be to the type of 1529 01:22:06.649 --> 01:22:10.050 thing you're talking about an executive, an executive, a level 1530 01:22:10.069 --> 01:22:14.029 of seriousness in anti charisma, a level of like nerdish, 1531 01:22:14.289 --> 01:22:17.449 you know, miss almost in the way that Carter's sheer 1532 01:22:17.750 --> 01:22:24.520 moral impeachability. was so important to the country in a post-Watergate, post-Nixon, 1533 01:22:24.899 --> 01:22:27.000 post-LBJ environment. 1534

01:22:27.180 --> 01:22:28.739 Governor of Iowa type dude. 1535 01:22:28.899 --> 01:22:33.020 Exactly. But with the right politics. So that's the key. 1536 01:22:33.060 --> 01:22:35.250 The key to those two things is many of what 1537 01:22:35.430 --> 01:22:36.069 Crystal just said. 1538 01:22:36.149 --> 01:22:38.930 And the right ability to communicate those politics. I think 1539 01:22:38.949 --> 01:22:40.390 there might be some people that exist without that. 1540 01:22:40.510 --> 01:22:43.010 If you put those together, the country is desperate for 1541 01:22:43.390 --> 01:22:44.170 genuine leadership. 1542 01:22:44.270 --> 01:22:44.770 Desperate. 1543 01:22:44.789 --> 01:22:45.369 That's what I think. 1544 01:22:45.590 --> 01:22:52.420 So thirsty. Final question. Trump? famously chose the escalator, which 1545 01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:56.939 to me is maybe the least authoritative mode of transportation 1546 01:22:58.840 --> 01:23:03.180 there is. It's literally, it's gravity and you don't even 1547 01:23:03.220 --> 01:23:06.829 have to move your legs. But it's cinematic. Yeah. You just, 1548 01:23:07.350 --> 01:23:11.590 you're heading down. What would be, for our next great leader, 1549 01:23:11.689 --> 01:23:15.529 what would be the mode of conveyance that they could choose? 1550 01:23:16.109 --> 01:23:21.380 Would it be people mover? chariot what anything. 1551 01:23:21.319 --> 01:23:24.430 They should announce it on breaking points breaking points. 1552 01:23:24.229 --> 01:23:27.430 The segue majestic. 1553 01:23:27.090 --> 01:23:32.430 Yeah the final plug the final damn plug uh i 1554 01:23:32.470 --> 01:23:35.449 can't thank you guys enough uh crystal ball and saga 1555 01:23:35.479 --> 01:23:37.699 and jetty of of breaking points please check out the 1556 01:23:37.739 --> 01:23:40.399 show because it is and and i don't say this 1557 01:23:40.500 --> 01:23:46.920 lightly uh good faith good faith conversation that you may 1558 01:23:46.960 --> 01:23:49.439 not agree with some of it, you may have arguments, 1559 01:23:49.779 --> 01:23:55.220 but it never feels cynical, it never feels manipulated, and 1560 01:23:55.260 --> 01:23:57.300 it never feels performative. 1561 01:23:57.880 --> 01:23:59.050 That's extremely kind, John. 1562 01:23:59.229 --> 01:24:02.130 And I really do appreciate that for the both of you. 1563 01:24:02.329 --> 01:24:03.829 It's not an easy trick to pull. 1564 01:24:03.930 --> 01:24:05.050 Thank you. Thank you very much. 1565 01:24:05.069 --> 01:24:06.569 It means a lot coming from you, John. 1566 01:24:06.590 --> 01:24:07.210 Thank you so much. 1567 01:24:07.479 --> 01:24:09.899 My last plug, my parents adore you. 1568 01:24:10.180 --> 01:24:10.760 I love them. 1569 01:24:10.859 --> 01:24:13.840 I think my mom met you in an airport once. 1570 01:24:13.920 --> 01:24:14.920 Wait, for real? Yes. 1571 01:24:15.100 --> 01:24:18.109 She said you were extremely kind to her. So thank you. 1572 01:24:18.270 --> 01:24:20.170 And I was in the front row at the rally 1573 01:24:20.210 --> 01:24:22.250 to restore sanity at age 18. Did it work? 1574 01:24:22.270 --> 01:24:22.909 It did work. 1575 01:24:23.630 --> 01:24:25.550 Clearly didn't take. 1576 01:24:25.590 --> 01:24:26.789 But I was there. I was there. 1577 01:24:27.850 --> 01:24:29.119 Thank you guys both for being with us. 1578 01:24:29.649 --> 01:24:29.970 Thank you. 1579 01:24:37.750 --> 01:24:40.649 Folks, you know, I am nothing if not a generator 1580 01:24:40.689 --> 01:24:43.260 of ideas that may never work. Obviously, we've talked a 1581 01:24:43.279 --> 01:24:45.300 little bit on the show about the crumple, which is 1582 01:24:45.380 --> 01:24:47.420 the portable dog bed that you throw on the ground 1583 01:24:47.439 --> 01:24:51.409 that makes a different topographical shape each time you do it. 1584 01:24:51.859 --> 01:24:53.439 Think of it as the way your dog likes to 1585 01:24:53.479 --> 01:24:58.619 sit on your coat, although officially a more dog appropriate 1586 01:24:58.939 --> 01:25:02.119 blanket type thing hasn't come into production or fruition yet. 1587 01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:04.619 But this Shopify thing, if you've got an idea, if 1588 01:25:04.640 --> 01:25:07.350 you're somebody that always thinks, oh, you know, it would 1589 01:25:07.390 --> 01:25:09.989 be a great business. This is the thing that makes 1590 01:25:10.029 --> 01:25:12.390 it work. It makes it ready to go from day one. 1591 01:25:12.449 --> 01:25:13.649 And I don't know how they did it. I think 1592 01:25:13.670 --> 01:25:16.590 with zeros and ones, I don't know how this works, 1593 01:25:17.470 --> 01:25:19.270 to be honest with you. I don't know how computers 1594 01:25:19.310 --> 01:25:23.210 work in general or apps work. Zeros and ones, and 1595 01:25:23.229 --> 01:25:25.170 then you feed it into a box where I guess 1596 01:25:25.350 --> 01:25:27.949 eight brilliant gerbils live and they do the rest of 1597 01:25:27.970 --> 01:25:30.869 the work. I have no idea. It's easy to design 1598 01:25:30.890 --> 01:25:33.039 your shop. It's easy to get paid. They handle the 1599 01:25:33.079 --> 01:25:36.430 checkout process. You might think to yourself, like, oh, how 1600 01:25:36.449 --> 01:25:39.220 are they going to complete their purchase? Shopify handles it. 1601 01:25:39.970 --> 01:25:42.329 Gets them to come back as repeat customers. Setup and 1602 01:25:42.350 --> 01:25:46.590 checkout are all handled. So get Shopify, for God's sakes. 1603 01:25:46.869 --> 01:25:51.020 With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. 1604 01:25:51.420 --> 01:25:55.140 So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com 1605 01:25:55.420 --> 01:26:00.659 slash TWS. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash TWS. 1606 01:26:05.640 --> 01:26:11.550 You can so tell Sager's parents do not agree with him, 1607 01:26:11.810 --> 01:26:20.229 but he's learned the gentle art of accepting his parents' wrongness, 1608

01:26:20.890 --> 01:26:23.210 but dealing with them in a kind way. Like, I 1609 01:26:23.250 --> 01:26:24.850 can't tell you how many times he said to me, like, 1610 01:26:26.199 --> 01:26:29.479 I see how you got there. Well, certainly I can 1611 01:26:29.659 --> 01:26:33.600 understand that. why you might think that but like that 1612 01:26:33.659 --> 01:26:37.189 is a guy trying to get through the weekend he 1613 01:26:37.250 --> 01:26:38.029 is spending at. 1614 01:26:38.010 --> 01:26:42.189 Home I'm gonna steal some of those like rhetorical flourishes 1615 01:26:42.390 --> 01:26:45.119 yeah that's um he has the patience first of all 1616 01:26:45.140 --> 01:26:49.300 it was saying like just I I fantastic Really admirable 1617 01:26:49.520 --> 01:26:51.649 what he does. What they both do, but what he 1618 01:26:51.670 --> 01:26:53.949 did in this conversation because it was a bit of two-on-one. 1619 01:26:54.069 --> 01:26:56.409 So shout out to Sagar. 1620 01:26:56.449 --> 01:26:58.310 I did feel bad on that. There was a certain point. 1621 01:26:58.550 --> 01:27:00.369 But when he would say, like, it's not cynical, and 1622 01:27:00.390 --> 01:27:00.550 I'd be. 1623 01:27:00.550 --> 01:27:02.229 Like, come on! 1624 01:27:02.310 --> 01:27:03.380 God! Sagar! 1625 01:27:03.420 --> 01:27:04.439 Help yourself, yeah. 1626 01:27:04.680 --> 01:27:05.800 How can it not be cynical? 1627 01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:09.739 When he said they love how much it drives you crazy, 1628 01:27:10.619 --> 01:27:14.039 that really hit me because I was like, so that's 1629 01:27:14.079 --> 01:27:16.850 why my family behaves this way in the group chat. 1630 01:27:16.949 --> 01:27:18.229 Yeah. Really? 1631 01:27:18.569 --> 01:27:21.720 Last week, I left the group chat because the memes, the, 1632 01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:23.840 you know, the Fauci shit. Oh, my God. It just 1633 01:27:23.880 --> 01:27:26.979 like surged. And I was like, I'm out. I can't. 1634 01:27:27.140 --> 01:27:27.380 Right. 1635 01:27:27.699 --> 01:27:30.100 I mean, I've highly suspected for years that this was 1636 01:27:30.159 --> 01:27:32.260 all just to own the libs. And just for that 1637 01:27:32.279 --> 01:27:35.659 to be confirmed in that moment was gratifying, but also 1638 01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:37.000 really upsetting. 1639 01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:41.880 Right. But it's also in some ways it's verified my 1640 01:27:41.920 --> 01:27:46.479 decision to never join group chats. Oh, yeah. I do 1641 01:27:46.560 --> 01:27:50.729 not have. There are no long straight, the largest group 1642 01:27:50.750 --> 01:27:53.550 chat I have is literally with the guys that I 1643 01:27:53.569 --> 01:27:56.590 play music with. Okay. That's a reasonable number. There's four 1644 01:27:56.630 --> 01:28:00.739 of us. Yeah. And the only discussions are, the discussions 1645 01:28:00.800 --> 01:28:02.199 are always like Tuesday night. 1646 01:28:03.439 --> 01:28:04.600 And then it's a bunch of thumbs ups. 1647 01:28:05.020 --> 01:28:06.000 What about Wednesday? 1648 01:28:06.199 --> 01:28:06.420 Right. 1649 01:28:06.600 --> 01:28:09.659 Can't, you know, it's that there's not a lot of, 1650 01:28:10.380 --> 01:28:12.720 you know, fuck COVID, like none of that stuff. 1651 01:28:12.899 --> 01:28:13.819 I see where you're coming from. 1652 01:28:14.060 --> 01:28:18.060 That's exactly right. Brittany, what do we got on this, 1653 01:28:18.239 --> 01:28:19.579 our final episode of the summer? 1654 01:28:20.100 --> 01:28:23.180 I know, how sad. Okay, John, do you think the 1655 01:28:23.199 --> 01:28:25.399 White House press corps is cool with taking a bullet 1656 01:28:25.510 --> 01:28:27.229 or a surface-to-air missile for Trump? 1657 01:28:27.689 --> 01:28:33.250 Absolutely. Of course they would say to themselves, if we 1658 01:28:33.310 --> 01:28:37.949 can be the decoy, if we, if sir, if killing 1659 01:28:38.029 --> 01:28:42.340 us makes you safe, however that would be, do you 1660 01:28:42.350 --> 01:28:44.140 want one of us to put on the Trump wig? 1661 01:28:44.850 --> 01:28:46.659 Do you want us to put on the red tie 1662 01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:50.180 and do that? And, and like show shadows. 1663 01:28:50.199 --> 01:28:52.260 I'll jump in front of the catering cart myself. 1664 01:28:52.479 --> 01:28:52.920 Sure. 1665 01:28:53.340 --> 01:28:55.539 Whatever it is you want us to do, sir. Do 1666 01:28:55.579 --> 01:28:58.260 you want us to taste your food? to make sure 1667 01:28:58.300 --> 01:29:01.930 that it is in no way contaminated. Although now with 1668 01:29:02.010 --> 01:29:06.729 Kennedy running HHS, you don't know if it's contaminated because 1669 01:29:06.770 --> 01:29:10.729 of a foreign act of assassination or there's just diarrhea 1670 01:29:10.770 --> 01:29:12.789 parasites and everything. 1671 01:29:12.869 --> 01:29:14.510 Yeah, that was- Common misconception. 1672 01:29:14.630 --> 01:29:17.069 That was a wild story. Although Kayla Collins, again, because 1673 01:29:17.100 --> 01:29:19.380 Kayla Collins, she does her research. She says, you know, 1674 01:29:19.420 --> 01:29:24.859 that is not unprecedented that a president has had to 1675 01:29:25.020 --> 01:29:28.939 change plans based on a certain threat. And it wasn't 1676 01:29:28.979 --> 01:29:33.100 until afterwards that it was explained to the people who 1677 01:29:33.159 --> 01:29:38.220 remained on the targeted conveyance. Hey, by the way, just 1678 01:29:38.239 --> 01:29:40.310 wanted to let you guys know now that we're here safely, 1679 01:29:41.689 --> 01:29:43.989 there were a lot of lasers being pointed and we 1680 01:29:44.010 --> 01:29:45.430 weren't sure which one was. 1681 01:29:46.350 --> 01:29:49.970 It's so fucking crazy. Also, the irony of it being 1682 01:29:50.010 --> 01:29:52.340 a catering truck is, It's just like. 1683 01:29:52.220 --> 01:29:54.279 What's always in the movies too. They're like, how do 1684 01:29:54.300 --> 01:29:55.079 we get you out of

here? 1685 01:29:55.119 --> 01:29:57.239 And then there's like a little catering cart and you're like, oh, 1686 01:29:57.300 --> 01:29:58.340 it's perfect. 1687 01:29:58.659 --> 01:30:00.850 Here's the question. Did he have to put on the 1688 01:30:00.890 --> 01:30:02.060 cater waiter outfit? 1689 01:30:03.109 --> 01:30:05.430 He had a disguise. He dressed as a bellhop. 1690 01:30:06.430 --> 01:30:08.310 Actually, here's what they did. They brought him in on 1691 01:30:08.390 --> 01:30:10.979 the big table and it had the little cloche on it. 1692 01:30:11.250 --> 01:30:13.189 And then they pulled it in. They got the table 1693 01:30:13.489 --> 01:30:15.630 to the safe location and then they lifted the cloche. 1694 01:30:15.949 --> 01:30:17.970 Are you okay now, Mr. President? And then put it 1695 01:30:18.010 --> 01:30:18.529 back down and then. 1696 01:30:18.989 --> 01:30:21.369 It's just such a screwball comedy. It's perfect. 1697 01:30:21.489 --> 01:30:23.770 Isn't it? It's very Clouseau. 1698 01:30:24.170 --> 01:30:27.970 I also love him saying, if I go, you go afterwards. 1699 01:30:28.130 --> 01:30:30.789 And it's like, that's not the case. 1700 01:30:30.869 --> 01:30:33.909 Actually, that was if they go, they go. 1701 01:30:34.510 --> 01:30:37.109 If I go, I go, you say. 1702 01:30:37.189 --> 01:30:40.250 Right. If I go, I go, and you don't go. 1703 01:30:41.069 --> 01:30:42.029 You go, bye-bye. 1704 01:30:42.789 --> 01:30:45.949 Yeah, you go, bye-bye. That's for sure. What else they got? 1705 01:30:46.449 --> 01:30:50.159 All right. John, whose weave is better, Trump or Fetterman? 1706 01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:57.149 Oh, whose weaves? Well, weave? Well, yeah, I was going 1707 01:30:57.170 --> 01:31:01.229 to say. Fetterman, no. I mean, Fetterman, I think, gave 1708 01:31:01.310 --> 01:31:05.869 up on whatever hairstyle. Trump, at least, is experimenting. That's 1709 01:31:05.930 --> 01:31:08.449 kind of what I dig about him. Like, with Trump, 1710 01:31:08.729 --> 01:31:10.810 you literally could imagine, like, where was he this morning? 1711 01:31:10.939 --> 01:31:13.399 And somebody would be like, I think the beauty parlor. Like, 1712 01:31:13.779 --> 01:31:16.600 he's– because he's got a hairdo now that's like when 1713 01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:19.819 my– You know, when I was younger, all the old 1714 01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:23.159 ladies would go to this guy, Joe. It was the 1715 01:31:23.199 --> 01:31:25.720 beauty parlor. And Joe would be at the beauty parlor 1716 01:31:25.979 --> 01:31:27.880 and he would take care of the ladies. And he's 1717 01:31:27.960 --> 01:31:31.329 got that, like, I imagine Trump sitting under that little 1718 01:31:31.409 --> 01:31:34.470 dome after getting his thing up and just coming out 1719 01:31:34.489 --> 01:31:39.750 and going like, oh my God, wait till I play bridge. 1720 01:31:41.899 --> 01:31:45.199 Trump is the master of the weave because he's in 1721 01:31:45.239 --> 01:31:48.819 control of it. Fetterman, unfortunately, I think, look, to be 1722 01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:51.859 fair to him, like he had a stroke. I do 1723 01:31:51.939 --> 01:31:55.550 think that creates processing issues. I don't think it's a 1724 01:31:56.170 --> 01:32:00.250 great environment for him in long form necessarily. I don't 1725 01:32:00.289 --> 01:32:01.930 want to lay all of it on that because I 1726 01:32:01.989 --> 01:32:03.729 don't think all of it should be laid on that. 1727 01:32:04.170 --> 01:32:11.640 But I definitely think he may have a more thoughtful 1728 01:32:11.689 --> 01:32:15.640 mode of communicating that we are not necessarily privy to. 1729 01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:19.010 If that would be, is that the nicest way to 1730 01:32:19.050 --> 01:32:19.390 say it? 1731 01:32:19.729 --> 01:32:21.229 I would say it's too generous. 1732 01:32:21.569 --> 01:32:27.390 I'm not suggesting that the opinions should not be criticized 1733 01:32:28.229 --> 01:32:33.229 and looked at with astonishment, because I do think they 1734 01:32:33.270 --> 01:32:36.529 are his real opinions. I just think, I don't know 1735 01:32:36.590 --> 01:32:40.510 if that was necessarily his best at defending them. That's all. 1736 01:32:41.090 --> 01:32:41.689 That's all I'm saying. 1737 01:32:41.710 --> 01:32:44.060 I haven't seen better, and I did look around quite 1738 01:32:44.109 --> 01:32:44.439 a bit. 1739 01:32:44.720 --> 01:32:44.960 So. 1740 01:32:47.029 --> 01:32:50.229 I haven't seen him articulate the point better than he did. 1741 01:32:50.250 --> 01:32:54.170 I actually think he's taking, I think Fetterman is taking 1742 01:32:54.350 --> 01:32:56.710 like some of Trump's playbook where it's like when he's 1743 01:32:56.750 --> 01:32:59.869 talking to some of the media, just like completely throwing 1744 01:32:59.930 --> 01:33:02.210 lobs back. Like when I think it was drop site, 1745 01:33:02.229 --> 01:33:04.840 like caught him in the hallway and was asking him 1746 01:33:04.850 --> 01:33:06.720 questions about Israel. And he was like, who do you 1747 01:33:06.760 --> 01:33:09.159 work for? Like that's not a real organization. 1748 01:33:09.840 --> 01:33:11.939 You know what? Yeah. I'm giving him too much credit. 1749 01:33:12.560 --> 01:33:14.220 I I'm probably, but I. 1750 01:33:14.300 --> 01:33:17.869 Think that's like a, He's, you know, copying Trump a 1751 01:33:17.890 --> 01:33:20.010 little bit. Like I see there's some tendencies there, but yeah. 1752 01:33:20.869 --> 01:33:24.270 I think it's because in the conversation, like I did 1753 01:33:24.310 --> 01:33:27.779 get to a place where I felt bad. I know that's, 1754 01:33:27.819 --> 01:33:33.199 he's a senator. There's no amount of having that, you know, 1755 01:33:33.340 --> 01:33:39.239 but having diminished ability, but having power not be diminished, 1756 01:33:39.590 --> 01:33:42.590 that's a scary place for people to be. But it's 1757 01:33:42.609 --> 01:33:46.260 hard not to, on a human level, Have

a conversation 1758 01:33:46.300 --> 01:33:50.890 at that length with somebody in that situation where you 1759 01:33:50.949 --> 01:33:55.710 don't go like, oh, I, it's like, I have to not, 1760 01:33:56.010 --> 01:33:58.229 let me just not be. Yeah. 1761 01:33:58.970 --> 01:34:00.430 I think that you have to, yeah, I think it's 1762 01:34:00.449 --> 01:34:02.729 really good to like hold space for that kind of empathy. 1763 01:34:03.770 --> 01:34:06.189 Whoa, did you say hold space? I've never used, I've 1764 01:34:06.260 --> 01:34:08.420 never heard hold space used before. 1765 01:34:08.680 --> 01:34:13.149 In a non- Um, but I don't, I don't know 1766 01:34:13.170 --> 01:34:14.890 that it's warranted necessarily. 1767 01:34:15.029 --> 01:34:18.130 I agree. And, and the reason why it's not warranted 1768 01:34:18.590 --> 01:34:22.090 is the amount of power that the individual wields in 1769 01:34:22.130 --> 01:34:26.619 the same way for, uh, Mitch McConnell, where you can 1770 01:34:26.659 --> 01:34:31.079 go like, wow, that must suck to be infirmed to 1771 01:34:31.119 --> 01:34:35.319 the point where you literally can't be filmed saying you're okay. 1772 01:34:36.359 --> 01:34:40.520 And then also think to yourself, Fuck that guy for 1773 01:34:40.560 --> 01:34:42.539 still having that much power. 100%. 1774 01:34:42.539 --> 01:34:43.359 All right. 1775 01:34:43.899 --> 01:34:47.239 I feel better. Thank you for helping me work through this. 1776 01:34:47.859 --> 01:34:48.729 I was feeling guilty. 1777 01:34:49.289 --> 01:34:50.069 You shouldn't. 1778 01:34:50.329 --> 01:34:53.789 I can't think that I was feeling a bit guilty. 1779 01:34:53.829 --> 01:34:55.529 That's all. No. All right. What's final? 1780 01:34:55.850 --> 01:34:59.550 Resolved. Last one. John, please settle this for me and 1781 01:34:59.569 --> 01:34:59.890 my wife. 1782 01:35:00.170 --> 01:35:02.470 Done. I can do that. No problem. 1783 01:35:03.630 --> 01:35:06.729 McDonald's fries or Burger King onion rings? 1784 01:35:07.789 --> 01:35:08.449 McDonald's fries. 1785 01:35:08.829 --> 01:35:10.409 Yeah. 1786 01:35:11.130 --> 01:35:15.159 Why would anybody even... Yeah. Why would someone throw that 1787 01:35:15.460 --> 01:35:19.539 even into the... The Burger King onion ring is not... 1788 01:35:19.720 --> 01:35:21.859 I don't believe is in the same weight class. That's 1789 01:35:21.939 --> 01:35:30.510 like Manchester City or somebody, the Galaxy. It's not even. 1790 01:35:31.270 --> 01:35:33.510 they can do a friendly every now and again, but 1791 01:35:33.529 --> 01:35:34.689 they shouldn't be competing. 1792 01:35:34.810 --> 01:35:38.189 Thank you, Jillian. A friendly, they can, they can play. 1793 01:35:38.250 --> 01:35:40.529 And you know what? We'll even pretend that we're going 1794 01:35:40.550 --> 01:35:44.600 to referee it, but we all know what the, the, uh, 1795 01:35:44.699 --> 01:35:48.600 the real situation is now, uh, uh, the McDonald's fry. 1796 01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:54.359 I will say this, uh, my view on the size 1797 01:35:54.439 --> 01:36:00.729 of McDonald's fry has changed over the years. Uh, In 1798 01:36:00.770 --> 01:36:03.310 the old days, if you would supersize a fry or 1799 01:36:03.869 --> 01:36:08.329 get me the largest container of fries that they will 1800 01:36:08.409 --> 01:36:11.970 allow me to take out of the restaurant. Do you have, 1801 01:36:12.289 --> 01:36:15.920 I'm sorry, do you have bucket-o-fry? May I have a bucket? 1802 01:36:15.939 --> 01:36:20.020 How about this? I'll hold my arms like this and 1803 01:36:20.079 --> 01:36:24.460 you load it with fry and I will walk out with, oh, 1804 01:36:24.600 --> 01:36:26.840 you know what I'll have? The sack-o-fries. 1805 01:36:26.859 --> 01:36:27.159 Yeah. 1806 01:36:28.270 --> 01:36:33.050 Like a little Santa sack filled with fries. As I 1807 01:36:33.090 --> 01:36:37.869 have gotten older, I can actually feel the amount of 1808 01:36:37.989 --> 01:36:42.869 salt enter my body and slowly begin to change the 1809 01:36:42.930 --> 01:36:49.800 chemical makeup of what I'm experiencing, and I can't do it. Oh, 1810 01:36:49.939 --> 01:36:50.699 that sucks. 1811 01:36:50.760 --> 01:36:51.920 Just to know that that's coming. 1812 01:36:52.560 --> 01:36:52.850 Yeah. 1813 01:36:53.119 --> 01:36:55.890 Nothing hits like a medium French fry and a medium 1814 01:36:55.909 --> 01:36:56.689 Diet Coke though. 1815 01:36:56.890 --> 01:36:59.909 Oh, but now you say medium French fry. That is 1816 01:36:59.949 --> 01:37:04.130 a respectable amount of fry. But the large fry, three 1817 01:37:04.250 --> 01:37:07.409 quarters of the way through, I think to myself, I 1818 01:37:07.449 --> 01:37:09.149 believe I'm having a pulmonary embolism. 1819 01:37:10.880 --> 01:37:14.720 I'll eat a bucket of fries for the both of us, John. 1820 01:37:14.920 --> 01:37:16.420 And I miss it. You know what I've taken to 1821 01:37:16.479 --> 01:37:19.529 doing at times? You get the fries and you do this. 1822 01:37:20.479 --> 01:37:21.699 No. 1823 01:37:21.819 --> 01:37:22.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1824 01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:23.939 I get the fries and I do this. 1825 01:37:24.060 --> 01:37:28.880 Oh, no, no, no. I have to clear out whatever 1826 01:37:28.899 --> 01:37:30.470 they put on there. That's dark. 1827 01:37:30.819 --> 01:37:32.989 Wait, have you had a Burger King onion ring? 1828 01:37:34.109 --> 01:37:34.470 Oh, sure. 1829 01:37:35.029 --> 01:37:35.729 Okay. 1830 01:37:35.770 --> 01:37:38.789 Oh, listen. I've traveled. Is that what you're asking me? 1831 01:37:39.010 --> 01:37:40.789 Has he traveled the world? Of course he has. 1832 01:37:40.890 --> 01:37:43.500 Am I a bon vivant? Am I a sophisticate? Of 1833 01:37:43.560 --> 01:37:46.640 course I've had the– And by the way, I've even 1834 01:37:46.699 --> 01:37:50.619 had when they try shit like, let's do cheesy tots. 1835 01:37:51.140 --> 01:37:55.460 Like when they'll introduce new fried items or things

like that. 1836 01:37:55.520 --> 01:37:56.340 I'll try them all. 1837 01:37:56.640 --> 01:37:57.279 Why not? 1838 01:37:57.399 --> 01:38:03.369 I'll try the Cinnabon with the little frosting in the 1839 01:38:03.430 --> 01:38:03.909 center of it. 1840 01:38:03.970 --> 01:38:04.670 Yeah, fuck yeah. 1841 01:38:04.949 --> 01:38:07.890 Fucking Taco Bell tried to throw out a chocolate empanada 1842 01:38:08.329 --> 01:38:08.989 for a little while. 1843 01:38:09.350 --> 01:38:10.989 Yeah, sort of like a Choco Taco. 1844 01:38:11.529 --> 01:38:12.109 Thank you, Jillian. 1845 01:38:12.670 --> 01:38:15.439 I always wondered who those advertisements worked on. 1846 01:38:15.859 --> 01:38:17.619 You're looking at him. 1847 01:38:17.640 --> 01:38:23.510 Me. I'll try them all. But I am always searching 1848 01:38:23.619 --> 01:38:27.630 for the perfection of, in my old days when I 1849 01:38:27.710 --> 01:38:33.899 ate bread meat, the McDonald's. cheeseburger, a large fry, Coke, 1850 01:38:34.779 --> 01:38:45.420 and an apple pie. That was the quintessential American lab-made, 1851 01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:49.020 I'm sure it was made in the same... Lab where 1852 01:38:49.039 --> 01:38:52.460 you made creepy crawlies, where you poured the stuff into 1853 01:38:52.500 --> 01:38:54.560 the thing and then you heated it up and out 1854 01:38:54.619 --> 01:38:57.140 came a worm. I'm sure it was the same lab. 1855 01:38:57.699 --> 01:39:03.520 The 60s and 70s were nothing if not monosodium glutamate 1856 01:39:03.550 --> 01:39:04.770 and whatever else they could throw in there. 1857 01:39:06.289 --> 01:39:07.189 They figured it out. 1858 01:39:07.869 --> 01:39:11.359 So good. Yeah. All right. Well, that's all for us. 1859 01:39:11.720 --> 01:39:14.579 And this is it. The show, we are done until, 1860 01:39:14.880 --> 01:39:16.539 do you know when the next one is? September? 1861 01:39:16.720 --> 01:39:16.920 Yes. 1862 01:39:16.939 --> 01:39:17.819 September 10th. 1863 01:39:17.979 --> 01:39:18.500 Thursday. 1864 01:39:18.539 --> 01:39:19.970 We'll be out on a Thursday that week. 1865 01:39:20.020 --> 01:39:21.439 Switching it up. 1866 01:39:21.560 --> 01:39:24.789 We're switching it up September 10th. To all the people 1867 01:39:24.829 --> 01:39:27.770 that have been listening throughout the year, thank you all 1868 01:39:27.789 --> 01:39:31.569 so much for doing so. We're excited to come back 1869 01:39:31.649 --> 01:39:39.239 in September and infuriate you even further. As always, we 1870 01:39:39.279 --> 01:39:42.819 could not do it without our exceptional team. And we 1871 01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:45.939 have added a new team member, I would like to say. 1872 01:39:46.689 --> 01:39:49.109 A new associate producer by the name of Rebecca Rotenberg. 1873 01:39:49.149 --> 01:39:52.550 She'll be joining us, doing a wonderful job. But our producer, 1874 01:39:52.590 --> 01:39:55.789 Brittany Mamedovic, our producer, Jillian Spear, our video editor and engineer, 1875 01:39:55.850 --> 01:40:00.930 Rob Vitolo, who made a headroom call today that I 1876 01:40:00.970 --> 01:40:02.770 thought was well worth it. I got a little lax 1877 01:40:04.140 --> 01:40:06.819 and I came in hot with a shit ton of headroom. 1878 01:40:07.880 --> 01:40:10.840 And Rob said, not on my watch, my friend, not 1879 01:40:10.859 --> 01:40:14.439 going to happen. Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce, associate producer, 1880 01:40:14.479 --> 01:40:17.260 Rebecca Rodenberg, as we mentioned earlier, and our executive producers, 1881 01:40:17.279 --> 01:40:19.460 Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much. 1882 01:40:19.539 --> 01:40:29.220 And we shall see you in September. The Weekly Show 1883 01:40:29.239 --> 01:40:32.479 with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced 1884 01:40:32.500 --> 01:40:35.000 by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. 1885 01:40:47.630 --> 01:40:48.880 Paramount Podcasts