Fullständig transkription av Dan Luzadder-complete interview

to 71 00:05:43.610 --> 00:05:47.910 were church socials and, and, uh, and fish fries, you know, 72 00:05:47.930 --> 00:05:50.089 and that was my, my knowledge of the world. And 73 00:05:50.149 --> 00:05:53.509 within days I was out on the police beat chasing 74 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:58.430 down cops and walking into crime scenes, seeing, seeing, uh, uh, uh, 75 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:02.399 corpses in awkward repose and, and, uh, I really got 76 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:06.240 excited about color for my stories, and I just kept 77 00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:11.649 after that same kind of attitude and chasing stories my 78 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:12.589 whole career. 79 00:06:12.649 --> 00:06:16.709 What a trial by fire. What year did you begin this? 80 00:06:16.750 --> 00:06:18.389 You don't have to tell when you were born, but 81 00:06:18.629 --> 00:06:20.470 when did you begin your work? I was writing under 82 00:06:20.509 --> 00:06:21.740 byline in 1969, and I kept at it. 83 00:06:21.769 --> 00:06:22.350 I'm still doing it. 84 00:06:30.829 --> 00:06:33.569 Amazing. So can I ask you like a very pushy 85 00:06:33.629 --> 00:06:34.329 New York question? 86 00:06:34.689 --> 00:06:34.930 Sure. 87 00:06:35.509 --> 00:06:37.250 How much were they paying you in the good old days? 88 00:06:38.009 --> 00:06:40.550 I don't know, but gas was 28 cents a gallon. 89 00:06:41.089 --> 00:06:44.500 So whatever they were paying, at least get the tank full. 90 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:47.620 And maybe, you know, and maybe a little bit more 91 00:06:47.660 --> 00:06:50.040 for some, you know, bacon and eggs in the morning. 92 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:51.500 I don't know. I mean, would you be able to 93 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:54.060 make ends meet? What did you do to make ends meet, man? 94 00:06:54.379 --> 00:06:58.319 Hey, shortly thereafter, I was a father and I was 95 00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:01.579 supporting a family with that. tiny little income, but I 96 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:04.360 did a little freelance on the side and I also 97 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:07.480 did some carpentry. I went to everything. I had a 98 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:12.410 city editor. He was an ex-CIA agent and he was 99 00:07:12.430 --> 00:07:16.889 a gaunt and severe individual, but he really loved hardcore reporting. 100 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:18.750 And so, you know, I would be out on the 101 00:07:18.790 --> 00:07:21.490 street and I would call him and he'd say, go 102 00:07:21.509 --> 00:07:24.490 do this, go down to the basement, the sub-basement of 103 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:28.300 the city hall and And those perpetrators that you were 104 00:07:28.339 --> 00:07:30.449 chasing will be down there in a holding cell. You 105 00:07:30.470 --> 00:07:33.509 can interview them. They'll think you're a cop. So, you know, 106 00:07:33.529 --> 00:07:35.389 it was that kind of advice and that kind of 107 00:07:35.449 --> 00:07:39.629 encouragement that got me started doing wild kind of investigations. 108 00:07:40.170 --> 00:07:44.120 What those investigations were the most intense, in your opinion, 109 00:07:44.149 --> 00:07:45.399 and the most productive ones for you? 110 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:50.079 There have been several. You know, one story that I've 111 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:55.279 always liked was one I did on Deadlines. when I 112 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:58.220 was working for the Indianapolis star on the investigative team. 113 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:00.910 And I got a call one afternoon from the, from 114 00:08:00.949 --> 00:08:03.170 the number two guy in the department of correction. And 115 00:08:03.189 --> 00:08:06.509 he said that they had a hostage situation going on 116 00:08:06.589 --> 00:08:10.410 on death row. And I was, and I was the 117 00:08:10.490 --> 00:08:13.189 only guy that the, that the hostage takers would talk 118 00:08:13.230 --> 00:08:18.519 to because I'd written about prisons and done prison corruption stories, whatever. 119 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:22.389 And so the, The guy says, well, can you have 120 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:25.360 the newspaper's helicopter fly you up to Michigan City State 121 00:08:25.379 --> 00:08:30.259 Prison to go in and do some negotiating? And I said, well, 122 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:33.139 they don't have a helicopter. They said, well, the state 123 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:36.350 police helicopter is busy. So they sent a squad car 124 00:08:36.389 --> 00:08:39.389 and they did signal 10 all the way from Indianapolis 125 00:08:39.429 --> 00:08:43.360 to Michigan City. I like respecting the speed limit, you know, 126 00:08:43.379 --> 00:08:45.639 how fast you can be out. We definitely did. Lights 127 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:48.230 and sirens all the way. But about four hours of 128 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.809 negotiation with Ray Wallace, a guy on death row who 129 00:08:52.049 --> 00:08:56.870 orchestrated the hostage taking. And we spent that time talking 130 00:08:56.909 --> 00:09:01.409 about things that had gone on in death row. And 131 00:09:01.429 --> 00:09:04.519 he wanted me to come back and write about the 132 00:09:04.580 --> 00:09:07.440 conditions there. I said that I would try to do that. 133 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.980 But we got all the hostages out. I still had 134 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:13.230 15 minutes before deadline, so I made the Bulldog edition 135 00:09:13.269 --> 00:09:15.909 and bannered the top of the front page of the 136 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.250 Indianapolis Star that day. And I was always really proud 137 00:09:18.289 --> 00:09:19.769 of the fact that we got the story in to 138 00:09:19.830 --> 00:09:24.470 rewrite before the last deadline. There's a corollary to that 139 00:09:24.529 --> 00:09:26.649 story that I used to tell in journalism class. That's 140 00:09:26.669 --> 00:09:30.240 when I taught part-time. When I was talking to Ray 141 00:09:30.269 --> 00:09:32.820 Wallace during the middle of the night, I said, Ray, 142 00:09:33.179 -->

00:09:35.149 you know, what got you in here? And he told 143 00:09:35.190 --> 00:09:38.710 me he had done a home invasion and then he 144 00:09:38.789 --> 00:09:42.450 had killed a family of four. The mother, the father, 145 00:09:42.769 --> 00:09:44.690 and then the two children. And I asked him, Ray, 146 00:09:44.750 --> 00:09:48.129 I said, you know, why would you kill the two kids? 147 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:50.539 He said, I didn't want them to grow up without parents. 148 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.259 You know, that hit me really hard because I was 149 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:57.259 a parent and I thought about that a lot. And 150 00:09:57.299 --> 00:09:59.259 I thought about it when I was supposed to go back. 151 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:02.899 and do more reporting on death row, and I just 152 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:04.840 put it off and put it off and didn't go back. 153 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:07.500 And so one day I got a call from a 154 00:10:07.539 --> 00:10:11.419 juvenile corrections guard who told me about the Indiana Boys 155 00:10:11.470 --> 00:10:16.110 School and abuses that were going on in the school. 156 00:10:16.690 --> 00:10:18.509 And I knew some people in the prison system that 157 00:10:18.529 --> 00:10:21.169 got me access to records. And they put me in 158 00:10:21.210 --> 00:10:24.149 a room with tons of records of the boys' school. 159 00:10:24.350 --> 00:10:26.129 And I was going through the files, and I found 160 00:10:26.149 --> 00:10:28.950 the file for Ray Wallace. And Ray Wallace. 161 00:10:28.970 --> 00:10:31.919 The same guy was on death row. 162 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.639 And he'd been brutalized there. But that wasn't the most 163 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:40.279 interesting thing. His roommate was Charles Manson at the Indiana 164 00:10:40.299 --> 00:10:42.559 Boys' School. And I discovered that. And so I sent 165 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:45.090 Ray a note at the prison. And I said, Ray, 166 00:10:45.110 --> 00:10:47.029 I want to talk to you about the boys' school 167 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:51.480 and Charles Manson. And he sent me back a two-word reply. 168 00:10:53.090 --> 00:10:56.789 And the first word started with F. Oh, because I 169 00:10:56.830 --> 00:10:59.529 hadn't gone back and kept my pride. 170 00:11:00.169 --> 00:11:01.190 He felt betrayed a little bit. 171 00:11:01.230 --> 00:11:03.169 He wouldn't talk to me. And I lost him. 172 00:11:03.190 --> 00:11:06.679 You know, I mean, how many, so you were working 173 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:09.480 for that Indianapolis paper, right? 174 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:10.820 Right, the start. 175 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:18.090 How many miles away was that to the prison? About 100. Yes, honey. 176 00:11:18.149 --> 00:11:20.960 I mean, you know. It's hard, man. He probably wanted to, but. 177 00:11:22.700 --> 00:11:25.730 Well, I did, and I'd written a lot about the 178 00:11:25.769 --> 00:11:28.509 prison system. I was the only reporter, I think, in 179 00:11:28.549 --> 00:11:32.889 Indiana that was ever allowed inside Pendleton Reformatory during a riot. 180 00:11:34.049 --> 00:11:38.169 And I went through a cell house crawling underneath smoke, 181 00:11:38.649 --> 00:11:41.470 talking to inmates that were holed up in their cells, 182 00:11:42.110 --> 00:11:45.289 you know, eating sack lunches and then throwing them over 183 00:11:45.330 --> 00:11:48.240 the side so the rats could run around and finish up. 184 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:53.049 Smoke filled Well I mean Concerned about Local pets I 185 00:11:53.070 --> 00:11:58.110 guess That's right That's right So Gosh Amazing I mean 186 00:11:58.149 --> 00:12:00.690 I mean What a story Just not to spend Too 187 00:12:00.730 --> 00:12:03.269 much time on that Because it's not The big story 188 00:12:03.309 --> 00:12:08.000 The book itself Yeah The CIA And Manchurian journalists Oh 189 00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:11.000 What else to remember About that hostage situation That is 190 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:14.059 so fascinating I just didn't know We were gonna Well 191 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:14.879 That type of Scenery. 192 00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:19.860 Well, you know, I had a contentious relationship with the 193 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.419 leadership of the Department of Correction because I'd pointed out 194 00:12:22.539 --> 00:12:25.700 sexual abuse in the Indiana women's prison. I'd written about 195 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.360 human rights abuses, drug trafficking, et cetera, going on in 196 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:31.340 the prisons. And so they weren't really happy with me. 197 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:34.820 So when I went in, they were very skeptical and 198 00:12:36.500 --> 00:12:38.980 they were, you know, not very helpful, but they were 199 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:41.759 in a tight spot. They couldn't, you know, they couldn't 200 00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:45.440 conduct any negotiations and they were holding court these guards, 201 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.240 three guards hostage. And there was a tier up above 202 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.659 the cell doors where we were conducting the negotiations. And 203 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.820 they would walk the hostages out every little bit and 204 00:12:56.899 --> 00:12:59.200 would hold a shiv to their throat and lean them 205 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:03.039 over the railing. So I can see that we were 206 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.639 talking about some serious things here. 207 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:07.580 And so you kind of diffuse the situation. Is there 208 00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:10.350 anything that helped with that? I mean, that's just an 209 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:10.879 amazing thing. 210 00:13:11.620 --> 00:13:13.320 You know, one thing that I think has helped my 211 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.009 career as a journalist has been the fact that I listen. 212 00:13:18.190 --> 00:13:21.409 And I listened, and I listened to their complaints, and 213 00:13:21.450 --> 00:13:24.470 I heard the

anger in their voices. They were double-selling 214 00:13:24.509 --> 00:13:30.799 people on death row. Double-selling people? Yeah, two guys to 215 00:13:30.860 --> 00:13:34.659 a cell. And the conditions, imagine, in Michigan City, which 216 00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:40.519 was a 130-year-old prison, were not too comfortable. Not that 217 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:43.070 you want to create too much comfort on death row, 218 00:13:43.090 --> 00:13:45.929 but people should be treated humanely, and they were not 219 00:13:45.970 --> 00:13:46.549 treated humanely. 220 00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:48.690 Wow. 221 00:13:49.029 --> 00:13:52.210 Okay, so there's a lot to be said for being 222 00:13:52.230 --> 00:13:53.669 a good listener, huh? Yeah. 223 00:13:54.250 --> 00:13:56.669 I think it's a key. If you're a journalist, one 224 00:13:56.690 --> 00:13:58.590 thing you want to do is listen and not assume 225 00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:00.610 that you know what the story is. 226 00:14:02.009 --> 00:14:05.720 Absolutely. So, one second. Humor me. 227 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:07.039 My screen. 228 00:14:08.929 --> 00:14:10.389 Disappeared were my questions. 229 00:14:11.549 --> 00:14:14.850 So, you know, and by the way, you know, honestly, 230 00:14:14.929 --> 00:14:19.409 I mean, this is so fascinating. I've been blindsided by 231 00:14:19.429 --> 00:14:23.429 your career. It's not fair. I've had some fun. So anyway, 232 00:14:23.629 --> 00:14:24.879 I mean, can you go more than 20 minutes? 233 00:14:25.529 --> 00:14:26.820 I can go as long as you want. 234 00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:34.139 Oh, good, man. What a sport. Okay, so besides that one, 235 00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:37.529 that incredible story, what are the stories or standouts for you? 236 00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:40.549 I mean, you were involved with with, I guess, kind 237 00:14:40.570 --> 00:14:44.370 of like exposing corrupt judges and maybe prosecutors, right? Tell 238 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:44.809 us about that. 239 00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:49.490 When I was a member of the investigative team of 240 00:14:49.570 --> 00:14:51.850 the Indianapolis Star, we did a series on the federal 241 00:14:51.909 --> 00:14:56.389 bankruptcy courts and corruption in the bankruptcy courts. And that 242 00:14:56.429 --> 00:14:58.740 was a big national series. That's why we won the 243 00:14:58.769 --> 00:15:03.899 American Bar Association Award for exposing that corruption. And my 244 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:09.590 part of the project was trucking company bust-out scams. When 245 00:15:09.850 --> 00:15:16.629 trucking company bust out scams. So you take a trucking company, 246 00:15:16.690 --> 00:15:20.169 modest size, you take it into bankruptcy court, and all 247 00:15:20.190 --> 00:15:24.309 of a sudden some of its tractors and trailers disappear. 248 00:15:25.269 --> 00:15:27.950 And they wind up being shuffled off through a number 249 00:15:28.009 --> 00:15:31.529 of situations, through leases or whatever. You get this protected 250 00:15:31.590 --> 00:15:33.860 by attorneys in bankruptcy court, and you get a judge 251 00:15:33.889 --> 00:15:36.759 to sign off on the equipment being missing. And then 252 00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:38.100 you sell it off to. 253 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.240 A cohort and then put new paint on it. So 254 00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:44.629 I was doing a company called leeway motor freight. They 255 00:15:44.649 --> 00:15:47.309 were over in Ohio and I was new to bankruptcy. 256 00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:49.610 Didn't know a lot about bankruptcy at the time, but 257 00:15:49.649 --> 00:15:51.870 I went into the courthouse and I said, I wanted 258 00:15:51.889 --> 00:15:54.679 to see the file on leeway motor freight. And the 259 00:15:54.700 --> 00:15:57.220 clerk looked up at me like I was wearing a 260 00:15:57.299 --> 00:15:59.779 strange looking hat or something. And he said, you want 261 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:00.799 to see the file, right? 262 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:01.860 I said, yeah. 263 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:04.220 So he walked me down the hall and opened a 264 00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:08.080 room and there were thousands and thousands and thousands of 265 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.669 documents in there. And he said, help yourself. So I 266 00:16:12.730 --> 00:16:16.090 started looking through documents and I found a list of 267 00:16:16.330 --> 00:16:20.350 missing equipment. I wound up climbing over a chain link 268 00:16:20.450 --> 00:16:23.009 fence and writing down numbers of where this equipment was 269 00:16:23.090 --> 00:16:27.330 going and where it came from, what it was leased 270 00:16:27.370 --> 00:16:29.929 to and tagged and found out that they were going 271 00:16:29.970 --> 00:16:32.799 to to a company that was running a truck driver 272 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:38.659 training school. And that led to the follow-up after the 273 00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:43.269 bankruptcy series on a company called Superior Trucking Company. And 274 00:16:43.289 --> 00:16:47.389 they were running a scam. They were recruiting people for 275 00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:52.730 truck driver training out of welfare lines, guys with amputations 276 00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:54.950 and things like that. They were signing them up for 277 00:16:54.990 --> 00:16:59.080 guaranteed student loans. And then these guys would never show 278 00:16:59.139 --> 00:17:00.899 up for training. They were taking the money from the 279 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.500 guaranteed student loans, and the poor guy on the welfare 280 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.019 line was defaulting on a loan he didn't even know 281 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.960 he had. And they did that to the tune of 282 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.220 $ 900 million in fraud against the federal government. 283 00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:15.230 I saw something like that, too, in New York. I 284 00:17:15.250 --> 00:17:16.829 saw something like that. Yeah, go ahead. 285 00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:20.730 They owned a lovely

jet, and they flew all the 286 00:17:20.769 --> 00:17:24.170 members of the Senate Education Committee all over the country 287 00:17:24.269 --> 00:17:28.289 for free. And they called that plane the Senate shuttle. 288 00:17:29.089 --> 00:17:31.250 And this was going on while they were ripping off 289 00:17:31.269 --> 00:17:35.099 the federal government. So I exposed that stuff. And that 290 00:17:35.170 --> 00:17:38.359 sort of corruption was protected up and down the line. 291 00:17:39.059 --> 00:17:42.240 So that was also an education for me because I 292 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:47.180 came to understand for the first time, really, how people 293 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:51.289 retaliate against reporters when they don't like their reporting. So 294 00:17:51.349 --> 00:17:54.140 it turned out people were coming around, picking up my garbage. 295 00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:56.500 They were watching my house 24 hours a day. I 296 00:17:57.259 --> 00:17:59.579 think they were inside my house. I never found a wire. 297 00:17:59.980 --> 00:18:03.660 But eventually those folks that ran the company sued me 298 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:12.410 for libel. And the case was dismissed after a judge 299 00:18:12.490 --> 00:18:17.279 that this company was using for favorable rulings was removed 300 00:18:17.299 --> 00:18:20.660 from the bench for cause in Indiana. And all of 301 00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:25.119 those libel problems went away. 302 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:25.829 Wow. 303 00:18:26.309 --> 00:18:30.190 You made yourself loved. I did. I was really popular. 304 00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:33.569 Looking back in the 70s and 80s, you began 1969. 305 00:18:33.549 --> 00:18:35.190 Tell us about how reporting was back then versus later 306 00:18:35.210 --> 00:18:36.210 when technology ruled reporting. 307 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.769 You know, journalism had its problems in reporting, and there 308 00:18:50.789 --> 00:18:55.150 were always concerns and issues, I think, maybe of a 309 00:18:55.309 --> 00:18:57.630 smaller scale. But one thing that did exist was an 310 00:18:57.690 --> 00:19:03.029 institutional system for developing stories, for getting information, for writing 311 00:19:03.069 --> 00:19:05.559 those stories with sound foundation. And we tried to keep 312 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.920 things accurate. If we didn't get them accurately done, we 313 00:19:09.259 --> 00:19:12.779 wrote corrections. And that was just the normal course of things. 314 00:19:13.410 --> 00:19:19.660 The institutional knowledge that existed in newspapers gradually disappeared. You know, 315 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.059 when I started as a reporter, other reporters took me 316 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.920 under wing. They showed me how to get to things. 317 00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:30.819 They taught me the little tricks of interviewing and getting 318 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.109 people to talk to you. That kind of institutional knowledge 319 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.170 has gone out the window. Younger reporters don't really get 320 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:40.769 that kind of mentoring that newsrooms provided because the newsrooms 321 00:19:40.829 --> 00:19:43.269 are largely gone. You look at the size of the 322 00:19:43.329 --> 00:19:47.970 Indianapolis Star and you can see the number of reporters 323 00:19:48.009 --> 00:19:52.400 that exist there around a kitchen table. In those days, 324 00:19:52.579 --> 00:19:55.140 there were six people in the newsroom, and there were 325 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.869 five reporters in the investigative unit who had no rules, 326 00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:01.990 no restrictions, came and went as they pleased, never went 327 00:20:02.029 --> 00:20:05.829 in the newsroom. That was the kind of environment that 328 00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:09.450 existed back then, and slowly it has eroded. to to 329 00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:13.549 what we have today which is not organized systemized reporting. 330 00:20:13.710 --> 00:20:16.190 As it is remote guys i mean how do you 331 00:20:17.019 --> 00:20:21.099 get mentoring when you need it but you don't you 332 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:23.420 think about yeah you think about all the all the 333 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.619 skills that were passed on from one generation to another 334 00:20:26.660 --> 00:20:28.700 and then on to a third and fourth and beyond 335 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:33.329 and that's just gone and so the you just I mean, 336 00:20:33.390 --> 00:20:35.569 it's great. You have a pie line. I'm famous. I'm 337 00:20:35.630 --> 00:20:36.829 an important guy. 338 00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:37.009 Yeah. 339 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:39.049 But you know, you, you, you never learned a lot 340 00:20:39.069 --> 00:20:41.990 of basic things probably that other people in the, in 341 00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:45.440 the craft did learn, but weren't able to pass on 342 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.059 because they just weren't rubbing elbows. 343 00:20:47.539 --> 00:20:47.619 Yeah. 344 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.660 It's just so important to be in proximity to people 345 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.859 and not just, well, where we're connected, we're all remote now, 346 00:20:52.940 --> 00:20:57.829 you know, we're saving money and losing everything. So, um, 347 00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:01.410 You know, you were able to work with some newspaper 348 00:21:01.470 --> 00:21:04.150 legends at the New York Daily News, the New York Times. 349 00:21:04.170 --> 00:21:06.470 I'm thinking about the Billy Joel song, you know, the 350 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:13.200 New York Times, the Daily News. Tell us about, please, 351 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.599 if you could, some of the people, the unforgettable people 352 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.480 you get to know at these two New York newspapers. 353 00:21:20.539 --> 00:21:22.960 I can't say I got to know a lot of 354 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.500 people because I was remote. Actually, I was in the 355 00:21:25.539 -->

00:21:30.079 Daily News newsroom a few times, but... And some of 356 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:33.440 the characters that have worked at the Daily News that 357 00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:36.720 I've known and become friends with, Lucas Rivera, who was 358 00:21:36.819 --> 00:21:39.740 a reporter at the Daily News and likes to tell 359 00:21:39.779 --> 00:21:42.789 stories about Jimmy Breslin's advice to people about how you 360 00:21:42.829 --> 00:21:44.670 know when your story is ready is you stand up 361 00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:46.789 and you read it out loud. And if it sounds 362 00:21:46.849 --> 00:21:48.690 good to the ear, then it's okay to turn it 363 00:21:48.730 --> 00:21:49.849 into the city desk, right? 364 00:21:50.670 --> 00:21:50.990 Yeah. 365 00:21:51.529 --> 00:21:53.650 Those kind of folks. But, you know, I have met 366 00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:55.890 so many characters over the years and so many really 367 00:21:55.930 --> 00:21:59.210 interesting characters. I developed a relationship with a guy in 368 00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:03.920 Chicago who was, he owned a little warehouse, paint and 369 00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:09.619 tile warehouse in Melrose Park. And it turned out that 370 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.809 he played Pinochle sometimes at midnight with a guy named 371 00:22:12.849 --> 00:22:16.170 Tony Accardo, also known as Big Tuna, who ran the 372 00:22:16.210 --> 00:22:19.670 Chicago Mob for many years. And as I got to 373 00:22:19.710 --> 00:22:21.569 know him better, I found out he was more than 374 00:22:21.650 --> 00:22:24.970 a Cardo's Midnight Pinochle partner. He was also Jimmy Hoffa's 375 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:28.599 liaison to the Chicago Mob. And one of the stories— Really? 376 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:29.339 Yeah, yeah. 377 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:31.900 And so I got to know him very well. We 378 00:22:31.940 --> 00:22:34.039 hung out together quite a bit. I used to go 379 00:22:34.099 --> 00:22:37.930 to his warehouse and see the FBI send young guys 380 00:22:38.049 --> 00:22:40.509 in to buy paint and tile at the warehouse so 381 00:22:40.529 --> 00:22:42.450 they could get a look at the old-timers who were 382 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:46.559 running the mob. And— So he told me that, you know, 383 00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:48.500 I would kid him for years. I said, let me 384 00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:51.200 write a book about your life. He said, you're never 385 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:52.940 going to do that. But one day he called me 386 00:22:53.019 --> 00:22:54.720 up after I got out to Denver and he said, 387 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:57.220 you want to write a book about writing about Al Capone? 388 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.720 I said, well, everybody's written about Al Capone. He said, yeah, 389 00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:02.859 but they never told the truth about him. I said, 390 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.269 what's the truth about Al Capone? He said, he never 391 00:23:05.329 --> 00:23:07.710 ran a Chicago mob. He worked for a guy named 392 00:23:07.730 --> 00:23:10.289 Jake Guzik. Jake Guzik was a guy that ran the 393 00:23:10.309 --> 00:23:12.910 Chicago mob. He was a Russian Jew. And all this 394 00:23:12.950 --> 00:23:16.210 stuff about the Italians running the Chicago mob was a 395 00:23:16.230 --> 00:23:19.200 bunch of crap. He said there were, excuse my language, 396 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:24.759 but he said the real brains behind the operation was 397 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:26.720 Jake Guzik. He says, I can put you next to 398 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:31.329 Jake Guzik's son. He's still alive. And I spent three 399 00:23:31.369 --> 00:23:33.890 days with Jake Guzik's son talking about the way the 400 00:23:33.950 --> 00:23:36.150 mob was back in the days of Al Capone. And 401 00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:40.849 he was Al Capone's son's best friend. How old was 402 00:23:40.869 --> 00:23:43.359 Jake Guzik, by the way? Jake Guzik, when he died, 403 00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:45.890 was in his 50s. He was in his late 50s. 404 00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:49.319 He died in the 1950s, but Al Capone died before 405 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:57.740 he did. But Guzik, he was a concert-quality pianist, actually. 406 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:02.609 His father was a member of the Moscow Symphony Orchestra 407 00:24:02.650 --> 00:24:05.250 before they came to the U.S., and he became a 408 00:24:05.329 --> 00:24:08.349 concert-quality pianist, but he liked ragtime piano, and this was 409 00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:11.339 back in the teens and the early 20s. parts of 410 00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:15.079 the 20s. And he would go down to the first 411 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:19.559 ward in Chicago and play piano, ragtime piano, at the 412 00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:22.059 clubs and the houses of prostitution down there. And he 413 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:25.940 got to know all of the people involved. And gradually, 414 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:30.559 because of his brilliance and his logistic brilliance, he rose 415 00:24:30.619 --> 00:24:31.980 to the top of the organization. 416 00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:34.920 You know, the Mafia today just lacks culture. 417 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:38.960 Yeah. 418 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.990 Right. My dad actually... my father and then my grandfather had, 419 00:24:42.549 --> 00:24:44.470 had a run on with Jimmy Hoffa. But it might 420 00:24:44.549 --> 00:24:46.490 as interesting as your story. So I won't, I won't, 421 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:48.950 I won't bore you with the details, but it was interesting. 422 00:24:49.009 --> 00:24:52.589 And then nonetheless, so let's, let's look at, um, his book. 423 00:24:53.369 --> 00:24:53.589 Yeah. 424 00:24:54.299 --> 00:24:57.839 You know, the, um, the Manchurian journalist, Lawrence Wright, the 425 00:24:57.859 --> 00:25:00.400 CIA and the corruption of American journalism, Lawrence Wright. Oh 426 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.460 my gosh. He was the prize winner and he becomes 427 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:09.960 the target of David Sutter.

Tell us about Lawrence Wright and, um, 428 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:13.319 It's both the Looming Tower Alligator and the Road to 9-11. 429 00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:18.529 I suppose it was based on faulty reporting or corrupted 430 00:25:19.369 --> 00:25:22.049 sources or what? The corrupting sources. 431 00:25:23.009 --> 00:25:26.130 Well, you know, I never expected to be taking a 432 00:25:26.150 --> 00:25:30.829 look at another journalist, but things happen unexpectedly. And I 433 00:25:30.869 --> 00:25:33.880 was freelancing and I got a call from a little 434 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:37.019 magazine down in Florida that was interested in doing some 435 00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:39.220 investigative reporting and wanted to know if I would help 436 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.400 them out. And it turned out to be owned by 437 00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:42.539 the Church of Scientology. 438 00:25:43.539 --> 00:25:47.299 Oh, my God. So, yeah. 439 00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:49.960 So, I went down to Florida and I talked to 440 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:52.960 these folks at the Church of Scientology. And Lawrence Wright 441 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:56.789 had written a book about the church, Going Clear. And so, 442 00:25:56.990 --> 00:25:58.769 they said, well, there's a lot wrong with this book. 443 00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:02.509 And he didn't really do any new reporting and whatever else. 444 00:26:02.750 --> 00:26:04.049 And would you take a look at it and write 445 00:26:04.069 --> 00:26:07.190 a story about that? So, I did. I took a 446 00:26:07.210 --> 00:26:09.150 look at his reporting on the church and I found nothing. 447 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.099 some problems, some holes. I got to know some of 448 00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:14.480 the people in the Church of Scientology. I got to 449 00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:17.059 know them pretty well, actually. I spent time with David 450 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:20.180 Miscavige and others, and I heard a lot of the 451 00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:22.150 stories about the Church and its history and how it 452 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.150 differed from what Lawrence Wright had written. But then I started, 453 00:26:25.470 --> 00:26:27.549 you know, just like I do with everybody else, on 454 00:26:27.609 --> 00:26:30.910 an investigative piece, I look at the personalities involved, and 455 00:26:30.950 --> 00:26:33.109 I started taking a look at Lawrence Wright, and he'd 456 00:26:33.130 --> 00:26:36.880 written a memoir, and I started pulling that memoir apart 457 00:26:36.930 --> 00:26:40.369 and testing the accuracy of it. and started finding some problems, 458 00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:44.460 and then found something even more interesting, that his father 459 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.460 ran a bank in Dallas. He was ex-military, and that 460 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.500 bank was used as non-official cover for CIA operations in Dallas. 461 00:26:53.539 --> 00:26:56.099 And the man that Lawrence Wright's father was involved with 462

00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:59.309 was Robert Story, who was the chief executive trial prosecutor 463 00:26:59.349 --> 00:27:02.069 in the Nuremberg war trials, and also one of the 464 00:27:02.109 --> 00:27:06.220 founders of the intelligence community in this country. And Lawrence 465 00:27:06.259 --> 00:27:09.009 Wright had never mentioned a word about Robert's story or 466 00:27:09.049 --> 00:27:12.089 his father's history with Robert's story or his father's history 467 00:27:12.150 --> 00:27:15.349 with intelligence. And then I discovered that Lawrence Wright went 468 00:27:15.390 --> 00:27:19.730 to a little summer class at Radcliffe in Boston when 469 00:27:19.789 --> 00:27:23.750 he graduated from college. And that class was run by 470 00:27:23.789 --> 00:27:28.369 an operative for the Central Intelligence Agency. They got him 471 00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:32.970 a foundation gig at the University of Cairo, at the 472 00:27:33.009 --> 00:27:37.200 American University in Cairo. And I started looking at the 473 00:27:37.220 --> 00:27:40.759 American University and found out about their central intelligence ties. 474 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:46.240 And basically what emerged was a story that encapsulates the 475 00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:50.900 fact that from World War II on, the Central Intelligence 476 00:27:50.980 --> 00:27:56.220 Agency had begun recruiting journalists, recruiting others within various parts 477 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:02.839 of our domestic community to build friendships, and particularly with journalists. 478 00:28:02.980 --> 00:28:06.900 And Lawrence Wright had a long history of assistance in 479 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.599 his career in becoming the journalist that he was. And 480 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.140 so then I took a look at Looming Tower and 481 00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:16.400 began to point out there or look at the contradictions 482 00:28:16.460 --> 00:28:18.759 that were in there with what we knew and how 483 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.480 well that book had been received in reviews by the 484 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:25.480 New York Times. It had been lauded by many organizations 485 00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:30.529 as the most insightful history into 9-11 and to the 486 00:28:31.329 --> 00:28:33.970 situations with Al-Qaeda. But I found a lot of things 487 00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:36.460 in Lawrence Wright's book Justin Maddow. 488 00:28:38.130 --> 00:28:40.269 Right. So you guys are now fast friends, I'm sure. 489 00:28:41.029 --> 00:28:45.849 Well, he did send a post on X one day 490 00:28:45.910 --> 00:28:49.660 that said that if anybody was contacted by somebody named 491 00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:53.160 Dan Luzader, that he wasn't really a journalist. He was 492 00:28:53.740 --> 00:28:58.740 a PI working for the Church of Scientology. But it 493 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.680 did inhibit my ability to talk to a few people 494 00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:02.369 I wanted to. 495 00:29:03.089 --> 00:29:07.349 What did Lawrence Wright get wrong about 9-11 and the 496 00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:12.769 CIA that, you know, presumably was misinforming him? 497 00:29:14.349 --> 00:29:19.650 I think the level of threat that the terror cells 498 00:29:19.910 --> 00:29:28.670 of al-Qaeda... represented in the U.S., the degree of encouragement 499 00:29:29.769 --> 00:29:36.369 of sort of a hyper hysteria about that. It was 500 00:29:36.430 --> 00:29:41.309 a tragic and horrid thing that happened on 9-11. Osama 501 00:29:41.329 --> 00:29:47.309 bin Laden's involvement in that, I think, is fairly well documented, 502 00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:54.190 although not everyone who was involved, I think, have been identified. 503 00:29:55.339 --> 00:30:00.460 But what Wright's account in the looming tower did was... 504 00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:06.279 It gave a false impression of the level of threat 505 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:11.480 that might exist going forward. It endorsed the idea of 506 00:30:11.539 --> 00:30:15.950 the massive response that was made. And it also painted 507 00:30:15.990 --> 00:30:20.890 a portrait of conflict between the CIA and the FBI 508 00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:24.529 in how they shared information as one of the root 509 00:30:24.569 --> 00:30:31.750 causes for why this happened and that was the level 510 00:30:31.769 --> 00:30:36.450 of accountability, I think, that his book promoted. It didn't 511 00:30:36.529 --> 00:30:46.180 look deeper into other issues, and it didn't appear to 512 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:51.640 me to be independent in the way that a good 513 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:57.519 journalist should be, but leaned heavily on the CIA's version 514 00:30:59.380 --> 00:30:59.900 of events. 515 00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:03.220 Do you think it's possible, something I like to say waggishly, 516 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:08.140 that not just the CIA, but the CYA was an 517 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:12.000 important factor to take into account? 518 00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:16.519 I think definitely that's a factor that has to be 519 00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:18.500 taken into account. 520 00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:22.140 They wanted to protect themselves for being asleep in the switch, maybe? 521 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:22.940 Yeah. 522 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.160 There's a similar thing we hear about Israel on October 523 00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:28.779 7th as to why they. 524 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.000 That event could occur without an immediate response, despite warnings. 525 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:42.680 Why did this event occur when there was ample intelligence 526 00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:45.769 that indicated there was risk? 527 00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:50.029 To me, it just seems such a small country and 528 00:31:50.069 --> 00:31:55.150 such an advanced and top-level intelligence apparatus like what Israel has. 529 00:31:56.089 --> 00:31:59.869 Just to think that they couldn't respond. They wouldn't be 530 00:32:00.289 --> 00:32:06.609 immediately able to bring forces to bear

within minutes. 531 00:32:07.450 --> 00:32:08.390 To protect people. 532 00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:10.869 Yeah, it shocks me. I don't know, by the way, 533 00:32:10.930 --> 00:32:16.799 what the response time was, but apparently it was greatly 534 00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:23.819 disappointing for the poor victims. Yeah, that's amazing. So, is 535 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.609 there anything else about Lawrence Wright and his His activities 536 00:32:28.690 --> 00:32:30.390 as a journalist and working with the CIA that do 537 00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:33.619 you think maybe he was egregious about, you know, that 538 00:32:33.650 --> 00:32:36.740 he really let down his audience? I mean, he was 539 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:38.400 a Pulitzer based on this book, right? 540 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:45.900 He did. And, you know, I think what is indicated 541 00:32:45.980 --> 00:32:50.660 by the fact is that Lawrence Ray didn't get to 542 00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:53.779 his position as a journalist yet. just on the strength 543 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:59.880 of his good repertorial skills and his craftsmanship in writing, 544 00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:05.160 as he has argued. He got there because of an 545 00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:08.490 elite network of individuals who put him in a place 546 00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:12.970 that other people don't easily get to. He was part 547 00:33:13.009 --> 00:33:17.779 of a little summer course run by a CIA operative 548 00:33:18.099 --> 00:33:22.640 who was recruiting people in the publishing industry, in the 549 00:33:22.700 --> 00:33:27.660 newspaper industry, in magazines. She was involved with individuals from 550 00:33:27.700 --> 00:33:31.109 Rolling Stone, with individuals from the New York Times, with 551 00:33:31.990 --> 00:33:38.339 all level of publishing and publishing. and the media in 552 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:44.220 ways that created a culture. And Wright became part of that, 553 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.099 and he hid that from his readers. 554 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:54.019 I mean, he knew about Operation Mockingbird. And by the way, 555 00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:59.940 was this an outgrowth of Operation Mockingbird, what happened between 556 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:06.390 journalists and the CIA regarding 9-11? Was this something based 557 00:34:06.470 --> 00:34:10.409 on what Operation Mockingbird did and began establishing by way 558 00:34:10.449 --> 00:34:13.750 of ongoing contacts and sources? 559 00:34:13.769 --> 00:34:21.969 I think long before Operation Mockingbird was an operation, there 560 00:34:22.030 --> 00:34:29.210 was an attitude and an imperative to control the conversation 561 00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:36.800 about communism, the Cold War, what America was, who we were, 562 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:39.800 and what we should believe. And I think that all 563 00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:48.840 started way back during the OSS with the intelligence system 564 00:34:49.900 --> 00:34:53.530 that was developed. And part of

that came out of 565 00:34:53.610 --> 00:34:57.570 the federal narcotics bureau, which was the predecessor to the DEA. 566 00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:02.179 And the Federal Narcotics Bureau, before the war, had intelligence 567 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:08.619 working throughout the country. And the OSS came in and 568 00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:14.550 patterned themselves after and used the FBN's intelligence sources to 569 00:35:14.590 --> 00:35:19.989 begin their own intelligence network. And so we've had this 570 00:35:20.349 --> 00:35:24.150 cozy relationship that's gone on that dates back to people 571 00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:27.809 like John McCloy, at the end of World War II 572 00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:34.179 and Robert Story and others who were extremely influential in 573 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:40.199 helping craft the idea of presenting our capitalist democracy in 574 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.179 a certain way and using the media, whether it was newspapers, magazines, books, 575 00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:47.960 or Hollywood to do so. 576 00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:49.340 Wow. 577 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:53.300 Well, before we go deeper on your book and Lawrence Wright, um, 578 00:35:53.889 --> 00:35:56.570 Can I make a little digression into the Church of 579 00:35:56.590 --> 00:35:58.949 Scientology and David Miscavige? Oh, yeah, sure. 580 00:35:59.349 --> 00:35:59.530 Go ahead. 581 00:35:59.550 --> 00:36:00.090 Tell us about that. 582 00:36:00.670 --> 00:36:03.130 Well, I had a good number of meetings with David 583 00:36:03.150 --> 00:36:08.989 Miscavige in various parts of the world, actually. Australia and 584 00:36:09.949 --> 00:36:15.050 here in the U.S. And we had private meetings in L.A. 585 00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:18.929 I went out to L.A. after I had done some 586 00:36:18.969 --> 00:36:21.349 freelance work for them and actually served for a while 587 00:36:21.449 --> 00:36:26.710 as executive editor of their magazine. I was trying for 588 00:36:26.730 --> 00:36:30.289 about two and a half years, two years. 589 00:36:31.289 --> 00:36:32.389 What's that new publication? 590 00:36:32.809 --> 00:36:39.030 It's called Freedom Magazine. And Freedom Magazine had an interesting history. 591 00:36:39.110 --> 00:36:42.719 I mean, it had actually done some pretty incredible investigative 592 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.820 work over the course of its lifetime. And it was 593 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.139 run by journalists. One journalist who had worked for Jack 594 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.929 Anderson was a longtime editor of Freedom Magazine. And Freedom 595 00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:56.139 Magazine had done some exposés on Central Intelligence Agency and 596 00:36:56.179 --> 00:36:58.340 a lot of things that were not related directly to 597 00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:02.420 the church. But later on, the magazine was turned more 598 00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:06.300 into a house organ and basically arguments about the church 599 00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:11.210 and

promotion of the church activities. And I wanted to 600 00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:13.849 take it more back into the investigative direction. We never 601 00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:16.849 really got there, but we did a few investigative pieces 602 00:37:16.929 --> 00:37:18.340 that were fairly good. 603 00:37:18.380 --> 00:37:18.880 But the.... 604 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:23.940 Course of events i met people that were i met 605 00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:28.780 the executive trustee of l ron hubbard's estate who had 606 00:37:29.010 --> 00:37:32.710 traveled with hubbard for for a good part of of 607 00:37:32.769 --> 00:37:35.929 hubbard's uh uh tenure as head of the church of 608 00:37:35.989 --> 00:37:37.730 scientology and what was his. 609 00:37:37.670 --> 00:37:43.420 Name did he uh um uh not much on the. 610 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.619 Spot you know you both got to get this out 611 00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:48.760 yeah anyway it'll come to me in a second the 612 00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:51.500 uh Uh, Norman Starkey was his name. 613 00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:52.219 Norman Starkey. 614 00:37:52.420 --> 00:37:53.119 Norman Starkey. 615 00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.539 I mean, so this is like, you're not a. 616 00:37:56.539 --> 00:37:58.679 Member of the church, are you? 617 00:37:59.059 --> 00:37:59.619 No, no, no. 618 00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:02.030 I'm, I'm a casual Episcopalian. 619 00:38:03.309 --> 00:38:08.309 Okay. So, um, you know, I mean, so many people 620 00:38:08.329 --> 00:38:11.570 left the church's ontology talking about people are kept in 621 00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:16.800 the hole. They're basically treated like garbage. David Miscavige is 622 00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:23.050 extremely violent. And, uh, you know, assaults people like I 623 00:38:23.090 --> 00:38:27.510 wouldn't have a certain frequency. Um, and, um, people are 624 00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:32.349 just basically have a lot of, uh, tales of abuse, um, 625 00:38:32.389 --> 00:38:36.670 tales of escape, you know, it's doesn't seem like a, 626 00:38:37.610 --> 00:38:40.309 an institution that would, you know, feel comfortable with using 627 00:38:40.329 --> 00:38:43.769 the word freedom and it's flagship magazine title, you know? 628 00:38:44.409 --> 00:38:45.679 Right. Right. 629 00:38:47.010 --> 00:38:50.949 And so that is a perception that has been pretty 630 00:38:51.010 --> 00:38:55.780 broadly established across the American culture that Scientology is an 631 00:38:56.010 --> 00:38:59.920 organization that is a cult and it does bad things 632 00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:03.559 to people, etc. But you know, one thing that my 633 00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.420 experience has taught me is that the public perception isn't 634 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.460 always necessarily accurate. But a lot of reporters are willing 635 00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:12.880 to go along with that public perception from the outset. 636 00:39:14.420 --> 00:39:18.139 My approach has been I want to know whether that's 637 00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:20.039 true or not. And I applied the same thing to 638 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.489 when I was covering prisons. Public officials in the state 639 00:39:23.510 --> 00:39:25.309 of Indiana would tell you that there was never a 640 00:39:25.349 --> 00:39:28.630 human rights violation or the drug traffic was bad or 641 00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:31.519 they were providing good rehabilitation. services for people in prison. 642 00:39:31.539 --> 00:39:33.659 But when I got in there, you know, it didn't 643 00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:36.949 look like that. And the story I heard about Scientology, 644 00:39:36.989 --> 00:39:40.150 when I got inside, it didn't look like that. So 645 00:39:40.909 --> 00:39:44.849 I was given the opportunity to ask any question I wanted, 646 00:39:45.710 --> 00:39:49.389 to go anywhere I wanted, And they would provide documents 647 00:39:49.449 --> 00:39:51.800 to me to back up their arguments. And that was 648 00:39:51.860 --> 00:39:55.119 my deal. If I ask a question, I want an answer, 649 00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:57.340 and I want it backed up. And they did that 650 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:02.440 over and over again. So I toured that. 651 00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:02.840 What's that? 652 00:40:03.579 --> 00:40:09.510 I toured the gold facility where the trailers were supposed 653 00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:13.289 to be, where people were held hostage and were brutalized 654 00:40:13.389 --> 00:40:17.570 and assaulted, etc., I didn't see anything like that. I 655 00:40:17.630 --> 00:40:20.610 talked to hundreds of people in Scientology about what their 656 00:40:20.650 --> 00:40:23.349 attitude was about being a part of it or not 657 00:40:23.389 --> 00:40:25.510 being a part of it. One of the arguments that 658 00:40:25.550 --> 00:40:29.230 was made about Scientology was that people couldn't leave and 659 00:40:29.670 --> 00:40:33.550 they had to escape. A lot of those stories were, 660 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.360 I think, created out of whole cloth because I never 661 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.250 saw anybody held hostage. could walk out on the street 662 00:40:40.269 --> 00:40:42.369 anytime you wanted to. You could have a cell phone 663 00:40:42.389 --> 00:40:42.869 if you wanted. 664 00:40:43.650 --> 00:40:43.889 Good. 665 00:40:44.050 --> 00:40:46.719 So, right, but I mean, did they have a minder 666 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:48.900 that was like kind of a guide that would accompany 667 00:40:48.940 --> 00:40:51.360 you to, as you went from place to. 668 00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:51.880 Place, or what? 669 00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:55.039 Well, a good part of the time, but I was, 670 00:40:55.059 --> 00:41:01.659 you know, I've I went to Hungary. I toured the church. 671 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:07.739 I hung out with local members. I moved through situations 672 00:41:07.780 --> 00:41:10.980 there and elsewhere. There was not someone that was constantly 673 00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:14.090 at my shoulder, although on

one occasion when I was 674 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:21.909 in England at the manor there, the headquarters, I had 675 00:41:21.929 --> 00:41:26.360 a couple of young people with me, and I They 676 00:41:26.389 --> 00:41:29.170 went one direction, I went another, and one of them remarked, oh, 677 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:34.679 my God, we've left a reporter loose on the grounds. But, 678 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:38.449 you know, I pretty much had open access to most 679 00:41:38.530 --> 00:41:44.429 anything I wanted to see, and that was instructive. I 680 00:41:44.489 --> 00:41:48.949 met people across the country, people that were believers. You know, 681 00:41:48.989 --> 00:41:51.840 people can believe what they want, and I endorse the 682 00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:56.170 idea of religious freedom to people. people making up their 683 00:41:56.210 --> 00:41:59.150 own minds. But there is a lot of distortion about 684 00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:01.210 the history of the Catholic Church. It doesn't mean, or 685 00:42:01.289 --> 00:42:04.489 Catholic Church, the Church of Scientology and the Catholic Church, 686 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:08.539 but it doesn't mean that all of those stories are 687 00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:11.239 untrue or from the perspective of the person involved that 688 00:42:12.019 --> 00:42:14.380 there were not situations that were bad. But I never 689 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:19.440 saw any indication of violence or talked to anyone that 690 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:24.300 showed any indication of violence except people in circumstances involving 691 00:42:24.340 --> 00:42:28.739 individuals who were making those accusations on occasions had engaged 692 00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:29.559 themselves in. 693 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.960 So, okay, at any point, did you talk to ex-members 694 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:36.639 of the church? I did. 695 00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:44.110 Yeah, a good number of ex-members. Yeah. And I reviewed their, 696 00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:49.210 the documentations and things, films. I spent a lot of 697 00:42:49.250 --> 00:42:51.889 time reviewing those kinds of things. 698 00:42:52.750 --> 00:42:53.070 That's right. 699 00:42:53.130 --> 00:42:53.369 Okay. 700 00:42:54.590 --> 00:42:56.159 Okay. So, so I want to ask you a question 701 00:42:56.179 --> 00:42:58.579 about David Miscavige. He's done like one interview or maybe 702 00:42:58.599 --> 00:42:59.699 he's done more interviews. 703 00:42:59.420 --> 00:43:00.340 That we just don't know about. 704 00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:04.739 Um, did, um, besides that interview I think he did 705 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:08.030 with Ted Koppel and oh gosh, I was like, what 706 00:43:08.449 --> 00:43:10.449 was it? 1994 is a long time ago. 707 00:43:10.849 --> 00:43:11.530 A long time ago. 708 00:43:12.050 --> 00:43:14.170 And see, why doesn't he do interviews? I mean, he's, he's, 709 00:43:14.510 --> 00:43:18.369 he's the head of the church. Uh, he's, you know, 710 00:43:18.389 --> 00:43:21.119 he obviously the church of Scientology wants new members. Um, 711 00:43:21.820 --> 00:43:23.340 You would think that that guy would be, you know, 712 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.619 get as much exposure as possible. 713 00:43:27.179 --> 00:43:31.409 Why doesn't he? I think maybe the history with the 714 00:43:31.469 --> 00:43:36.269 media is part of one of the reasons. And, you know, 715 00:43:36.309 --> 00:43:39.590 I think what a lot of people don't know about 716 00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:44.659 Scientology is the very difficult road they had to establishing 717 00:43:44.739 --> 00:43:49.000 themselves in various countries around the world and the kinds 718 00:43:49.059 --> 00:43:52.190 of things that were done about Scientology where they were 719 00:43:52.230 --> 00:43:56.219 treated like a cult in Germany, in England, in Australia, 720 00:43:56.860 --> 00:44:00.179 other places. At one time in Australia, if you possess 721 00:44:00.219 --> 00:44:03.480 Scientology materials, it could lead to your arrest or your 722 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:06.260 children being taken away from you or your children not 723 00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:10.500 being allowed to attend public schools. In England, they restricted 724 00:44:10.539 --> 00:44:13.320 people's ability who were members of the church to fly 725 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:16.480 in and out of the country. then there have been 726 00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:21.489 a lot of repression of the church and the church's ideas. 727 00:44:23.610 --> 00:44:28.010 So, you know, the- I'm sorry, go ahead. 728 00:44:29.429 --> 00:44:32.690 I was just going to say that, you know, the 729 00:44:32.889 --> 00:44:36.769 attitude that's been long expressed toward the church, I think, 730 00:44:36.789 --> 00:44:41.170 is part of the reluctance of Miscavige to come out 731 00:44:41.230 --> 00:44:43.960 and do those kinds of interviews. In the interview he 732 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.880 did with Ted Koppel, actually, I thought he did a 733 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:46.659 fairly good job. 734 00:44:47.539 --> 00:44:49.760 Actually, I will say this. I think he acquitted himself very, 735 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:55.780 very well. Probably spent lots of time preparing for it. But, 736 00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:03.119 you know, I think it's an important factor, let's say, 737 00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:08.619 an important consideration in this whole treatment of Scientology that 738 00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.619 they supposedly infiltrated the government at many levels, right? 739 00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:15.039 They did. They did infiltrate the government. 740 00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:17.599 And the CIA as well, right? 741 00:45:18.219 --> 00:45:20.320 But when you go back into the story of what 742 00:45:20.409 --> 00:45:23.829 actually happened there, which probably most people don't know, is 743 00:45:24.449 --> 00:45:27.090 that there was something called the Guardian's Office, which in 744 00:45:27.130 --> 00:45:29.230 the

wake of all of the attacks on the church 745 00:45:29.369 --> 00:45:36.789 was developed by L. Ron Hubbard's wife to protect the church. 746 00:45:37.409 --> 00:45:40.849 But it became something of a franchise for her. And 747 00:45:40.909 --> 00:45:45.949 she was the person essentially behind putting employees into the IRS, 748 00:45:46.460 --> 00:45:51.840 the FBI, other agencies where they could gather documents to 749 00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:56.039 show that the government was improperly attacking the church. And 750 00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:58.969 of course, they had the big IRS case going on forever. 751 00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:04.809 And so they did infiltrate. They were discovered. They were prosecuted. 752 00:46:05.510 --> 00:46:08.550 And people actually went to jail over that. But the 753 00:46:08.590 --> 00:46:13.489 guardian's office then later was disbanded, and it was disbanded 754 00:46:13.550 --> 00:46:18.409 by Miscavige because of those excesses and that abuse. And 755 00:46:18.469 --> 00:46:21.230 he is the one that launched the negotiations with the 756 00:46:21.349 --> 00:46:25.550 IRS that lasted for a couple of years and resulted 757 00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:29.179 in trainloads of documents from the Church of Scientology being 758 00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:31.980 turned over to the IRS, something that you won't really 759 00:46:32.059 --> 00:46:36.199 read about in Lawrence Wright's book about Scientology because he 760 00:46:36.219 --> 00:46:38.900 took an opposite point of view, that the Church was 761 00:46:39.489 --> 00:46:42.610 so vigorously threatening to sue the IRS that they couldn't 762 00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:45.789 keep up with all the lawsuits, which is an argument 763 00:46:45.829 --> 00:46:48.969 that may sound good to the people not well-informed about 764 00:46:48.989 --> 00:46:52.210 how these kind of court cases work, but that wasn't 765 00:46:52.269 --> 00:46:55.769 what happened. They turned over documents that included, they showed 766 00:46:55.829 --> 00:47:00.159 me a piece of paper with some loose coins taped 767 00:47:00.619 --> 00:47:03.519 to the piece of paper to account for a few 768 00:47:03.559 --> 00:47:04.500 cents of missing money. 769 00:47:05.030 --> 00:47:10.940 David Miscavige. I understand you met him several times. That's amazing. 770 00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:15.280 I had numerous conversations with him. I had meetings with 771 00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:20.119 him to discuss matters about the church with other individuals, 772 00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:24.769 conversations about their magazine and what it was supposed to 773 00:47:24.809 --> 00:47:27.230 be and what it was supposed to do. I was 774 00:47:27.550 --> 00:47:29.449 with him in the back room of. 775 00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:35.500 Church in Detroit when he was getting ready for his presentations. 776 00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:40.510 I was there with him in Australia when they were 777 00:47:40.570 --> 00:47:44.909 opening their new church. We

had a lot of conversations. 778 00:47:44.949 --> 00:47:50.750 They weren't necessarily all one-on-one, but we talked about issues 779 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:54.199 and things that were raised and the negativity toward the 780 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:58.000 church and how that was perceived inside and what their 781 00:47:58.019 --> 00:48:02.250 argument was that contrasted that. And not just David Miscavige, 782 00:48:02.269 --> 00:48:06.590 but the attorneys for the church and the upper-level people 783 00:48:06.630 --> 00:48:12.409 that were there that were engaged in the day-to-day. And 784 00:48:12.530 --> 00:48:17.190 also the people that drove celebrities back and forth. I 785 00:48:17.210 --> 00:48:18.090 got to know them well. 786 00:48:18.989 --> 00:48:24.500 So these were like in-person meetings or on the phone 787 00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:24.800 or what? 788 00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:27.639 No, most always in person. 789 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:29.820 What is he like? 790 00:48:32.210 --> 00:48:36.269 He's a very personable individual. You know, I was in England, 791 00:48:36.309 --> 00:48:41.230 and I was allowed into a private meeting with some 792 00:48:42.030 --> 00:48:47.809 local individuals in East Grinstead. And that local community has 793 00:48:47.849 --> 00:48:51.349 been supported by the Church of Scientology since Hubbard founded 794 00:48:51.389 --> 00:48:55.289 his organization there and was part of that community in 795 00:48:55.329 --> 00:48:57.960 East Grinstead. And he had a conversation. He went to 796 00:48:58.059 --> 00:49:00.300 school there. He had a conversation with his former coach, 797 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:05.489 who had become mayor of East Grinstead. And, you know, 798 00:49:05.739 --> 00:49:11.250 he is personable. He's warm. He draws people to him. 799 00:49:12.010 --> 00:49:15.050 And at the same time, when it comes to the church, 800 00:49:15.090 --> 00:49:23.199 he can be very open. And I can see how 801 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:28.260 in some cases people might suggest that he could have 802 00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:33.159 an aggressive response. But I don't see that. I never 803 00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:36.659 saw it. In my conversations with him, I did see 804 00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.869 him on a couple of occasions, talk to people directly 805 00:49:39.929 --> 00:49:42.809 about what they had done and should have done instead. 806 00:49:44.269 --> 00:49:49.030 But nothing I hadn't ever seen in a newsroom. And 807 00:49:49.070 --> 00:49:50.940 certainly more mild, perhaps. 808 00:49:52.820 --> 00:49:53.079 Sure. 809 00:49:53.139 --> 00:49:55.659 So when was the last time you were in touch 810 00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.019 with him? Is this something that goes back on a 811 00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:02.389 couple of years, months? Yeah, it goes back to decades ago. 812 00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:07.639 It was, I think, when I finished up the book 813 00:50:07.739 --> 00:50:14.250 in 2021, 2022 was the last time I actually was 814 00:50:14.309 --> 00:50:18.909 there with people from the organization in LA. 815 00:50:19.949 --> 00:50:22.170 So Tom Cruise, that was somebody, of course, he's an 816 00:50:22.369 --> 00:50:25.860 important person in the church. Did you ever have the 817 00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:27.679 opportunity to meet with him, deal with him? 818 00:50:28.449 --> 00:50:30.889 I never did. I was in the same room with 819 00:50:30.949 --> 00:50:34.929 him once. I never actually got to talk to him. But, 820 00:50:35.409 --> 00:50:39.489 you know, I think there's a widely distorted picture of 821 00:50:40.510 --> 00:50:44.050 his place within the church. He's a member. He supports it. 822 00:50:44.489 --> 00:50:47.610 He believes in the ideas. He's a friend of Miscavige. 823 00:50:48.929 --> 00:50:54.139 But celebrities are not part of the governing body of 824 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:59.940 the church. They don't participate in that way. And they support, 825 00:51:00.380 --> 00:51:08.090 they encourage others, they endorse those parts of the philosophy 826 00:51:08.150 --> 00:51:11.429 that they like, but they don't make decisions on the 827 00:51:11.469 --> 00:51:14.909 day-to-day operations of the church. 828 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:22.599 Some people will say Scientology is growing, stagnating, treading water. 829 00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:25.550 What are your thoughts about that? how big it is 830 00:51:25.909 --> 00:51:28.070 as an institution regarding members. 831 00:51:29.050 --> 00:51:31.150 I know that the church has put a lot of 832 00:51:31.230 --> 00:51:34.489 effort into growth around the world, and critics say, well, 833 00:51:34.530 --> 00:51:38.889 they're opening churches, but there's nobody in them. There were 834 00:51:38.909 --> 00:51:40.269 quite a few people in them when I went to 835 00:51:40.309 --> 00:51:45.429 visit them. So I don't know about the accuracy of that. 836 00:51:45.659 --> 00:51:49.940 I'm not in touch with various congregants, but I do 837 00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:56.340 know that Um, when they've opened churches, they've done so 838 00:51:56.440 --> 00:51:59.800 in places where it may be difficult for them and 839 00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:02.760 they realize that and they address it as they go. 840 00:52:03.460 --> 00:52:08.300 They use the systems that everyone else uses. Um, they 841 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:13.980 lobby for their, their right to be. And they, um, 842 00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:20.789 and they're fairly sophisticated at it. Um, they use, they use, uh, uh, 843 00:52:21.570 --> 00:52:26.530 attorneys and, and others with, with solid credentials. And, um, 844 00:52:27.809 --> 00:52:30.590 and they're not, they're not blindly going along, uh, uh, 845 00:52:31.929 --> 00:52:36.380 making mistakes, uh, at least in my, my perception or 846 00:52:36.420 --> 00:52:38.460 what I learned from the church. 847 00:52:38.500 --> 00:52:44.280 So they, they, um, they've got still lots of people 848 00:52:44.300 -->

00:52:47.679 in government that, that, uh, let's say, are allies of 849 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:51.719 Scientology still, or do you think that chapter has kind 850 00:52:51.739 --> 00:52:52.340 of waned? 851 00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:55.099 I think, well, I think it was an isolated thing. 852 00:52:55.159 --> 00:52:57.840 It was an effort by the church to fight back. 853 00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:00.639 They were going to find out what the government knew 854 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:04.360 and why they were on the enemy's lists, and they 855 00:53:04.489 --> 00:53:08.090 considered it suppression. So they did what they did, violated 856 00:53:08.130 --> 00:53:12.679 the law, held accountable for it, and that led Those efforts, 857 00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:14.639 I think, were cleaned up. I don't think they do 858 00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:19.639 those sorts of things now. And I think when that happened, 859 00:53:19.699 --> 00:53:22.139 I think it was isolated to some individuals for whatever 860 00:53:22.179 --> 00:53:26.739 their enthusiasm was for protecting the church. They overstepped their bounds. 861 00:53:28.300 --> 00:53:28.760 Yeah, right. 862 00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:30.010 Right. 863 00:53:30.050 --> 00:53:33.269 So then Shelly Miscavige, did she get together with you 864 00:53:33.349 --> 00:53:39.519 and David over shrimp and champagne or that never happened? Who? 865 00:53:40.699 --> 00:53:47.289 Shelley Miscavige. I never met her. I was doing this tongue-in-cheek. 866 00:53:47.329 --> 00:53:47.730 That part. 867 00:53:48.170 --> 00:53:50.389 Yeah, well, you're a guy who writes limericks. 868 00:53:51.170 --> 00:53:55.110 Yeah, exactly. Going back to your book, A Maturing Journalist, 869 00:53:58.010 --> 00:54:02.190 how did American journalism really get corrupted? Is it really 870 00:54:02.210 --> 00:54:06.309 fair to say that when getting a story means getting 871 00:54:06.349 --> 00:54:09.179 a source... And the source is going to want something 872 00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.920 back And the source is also going to be there 873 00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:18.070 Coaching the development of the story Feeding the storylines You know, 874 00:54:18.469 --> 00:54:21.730 it's just It's going to happen It's hard to police 875 00:54:21.750 --> 00:54:24.769 your sources You have to be somewhat skeptical But then again, 876 00:54:24.809 --> 00:54:26.469 you know You get somebody at a high level in 877 00:54:26.489 --> 00:54:31.369 the CIA They're going to tell you stuff And they're 878 00:54:31.389 --> 00:54:33.889 going to tell the whole story And you don't have 879 00:54:33.949 --> 00:54:35.929 access to the whole story Because you don't have access 880 00:54:35.949 --> 00:54:39.380 to all the facts Right? I mean, is it, how 881 00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:44.340 fair is that, you know? Are you picking on the CIA, Dan? 882 00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:45.059 Am I? 883 00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:48.300 I would think, I would think that because most of 884 00:54:48.340 -->

00:54:51.639 what I'm dealing with is history, you know, and that's 885 00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:54.800 what has been fascinating to me about this book and 886 00:54:54.820 --> 00:54:58.389 this process is there were not a lot of sources 887 00:54:59.030 --> 00:55:01.389 coming to me saying this is the way it was. 888 00:55:01.949 --> 00:55:07.079 This was archival research. A lot of what went into 889 00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.440 this was archival research. I went back to Amherst and 890 00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:15.679 pulled out the personal papers of John McCloy, who was 891 00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:19.360 so influential on American history but doesn't get a lot 892 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:23.519 of notice these days. He was head of the Rockefeller Foundation. 893 00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:25.389 He was head of the Ford Foundation. He was head 894 00:55:25.429 --> 00:55:28.780 of the Council on Foreign Relations. He was the governor 895 00:55:28.820 --> 00:55:31.599 for the occupation of Germany in World War II. He 896 00:55:31.639 --> 00:55:34.409 was a guy who helped craft the intelligence network that 897 00:55:34.489 --> 00:55:37.750 existed after World War II. And part of that intelligence 898 00:55:37.809 --> 00:55:43.670 network was making sure that what Americans heard about American 899 00:55:43.769 --> 00:55:47.190 ideals and democracy and those sorts of things lined up 900 00:55:47.269 --> 00:55:49.960 with the anti-communist stance that the government took. 901 00:55:50.900 --> 00:55:51.260 And so. 902 00:55:52.130 --> 00:55:56.650 So journalists who were willing to help with that process, 903 00:55:57.070 --> 00:56:00.559 who were willing to help weed out certain stories from 904 00:56:00.619 --> 00:56:04.219 the American public, stories that really we should have heard 905 00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:08.199 about or should have known about, or stories we only 906 00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:12.780 got bits and pieces of through the daily reporting, those 907 00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:15.320 things didn't tell us the whole story about what was 908 00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:20.239 going on. The CIA was prohibited from doing intelligence operations domestically. 909 00:56:21.010 --> 00:56:22.670 They have ignored that rule. 910 00:56:23.369 --> 00:56:23.869 They have. 911 00:56:23.889 --> 00:56:26.070 Don't they use proxies? 912 00:56:26.329 --> 00:56:32.159 They use foreign proxies like MI5 and... Well, they use 913 00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:36.360 other proxies, but they use individuals who have allegiances or 914 00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:40.320 had allegiances at one time to the OSS, the beginning 915 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:41.900 of the intelligence service. 916 00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:46.019 During World War II. They had the help of people 917 00:56:46.059 --> 00:56:49.639 who were ex-military. There was a situation in Indianapolis when 918 00:56:49.699 --> 00:56:52.739 I was investigating the company that I mentioned, Superior Training, 919 00:56:53.119 -->

00:56:56.030 Director of Training School. There was a guy that worked 920 00:56:56.110 --> 00:56:58.949 for an accounting firm. He didn't know how to run 921 00:56:58.969 --> 00:57:01.110 a calculator. He didn't know how to run a typewriter. 922 00:57:01.170 --> 00:57:04.949 He didn't do any of that stuff. But he was 923 00:57:04.989 --> 00:57:07.969 undercover for the FBI, and he was closely associated with 924 00:57:07.989 --> 00:57:11.639 the CIA. He got in touch with me. fed me 925 00:57:11.739 --> 00:57:15.079 some records that helped me in my pursuit, although I 926 00:57:15.139 --> 00:57:19.519 didn't know then why he was doing that. But the 927 00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:23.280 records were legitimate, and they helped the story. But as 928 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:26.239 I began to research further, I began to understand that 929 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:31.059 there were elements in Indianapolis that reached into the intrigue 930 00:57:31.099 --> 00:57:35.500 behind Iran-Contra. And some of those things involved political people 931 00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:41.900 and political situations. So the the use of the Central 932 00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:49.269 Intelligence Agency to literally step into the stirrups of the 933 00:57:49.449 --> 00:57:54.909 Drug Enforcement Administration and to run or to oversee drug 934 00:57:54.949 --> 00:57:59.969 enforcement activities in this country occurred because they wanted to 935 00:58:00.130 --> 00:58:04.250 develop intelligence sources within these drug networks for use in 936 00:58:04.289 --> 00:58:09.880 other circumstances. They did that with the Chagras in Texas. Sorry, 937 00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:14.329 I fell with whom? The Chagras. Lee Chagra and his 938 00:58:14.389 --> 00:58:18.849 brother in Texas who were running major marijuana operations and 939 00:58:18.929 --> 00:58:23.289 were tagged as responsible for the killing of a federal 940 00:58:23.329 --> 00:58:29.019 judge in Texas. Neither were ever prosecuted for that. Woody 941 00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:34.559 Harrelson's father was the trigger man in that case. Oh, really? 942 00:58:35.789 --> 00:58:41.929 But these elements of central intelligence agency working within universities, 943 00:58:42.469 --> 00:58:47.190 working within the media, working within the private sector to 944 00:58:47.230 --> 00:58:55.829 help protect our capitalist democracy, I think has been sort 945 00:58:55.869 --> 00:58:59.199 of an untold story about our intelligence community and what 946 00:58:59.239 --> 00:58:59.610 it became. 947 00:59:00.769 --> 00:59:02.840 Right, so, I mean, okay. I mean, I can understand that. 948 00:59:02.920 --> 00:59:05.880 I mean, it's not necessarily, obviously, why it would be 949 00:59:05.900 --> 00:59:08.369 a bad thing. I mean, we're talking about a free 950 00:59:08.409 --> 00:59:10.860 society where people are free to give the middle finger 951 00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:13.559 to the United States, to its values, to its culture, 952 00:59:13.579 --> 00:59:17.440 to its history, to its institutions, to the establishment. And, 953 00:59:17.460 --> 00:59:22.090 you know, you look at, you know, during the Cold War, 954 00:59:22.110 --> 00:59:25.510 you know, the misery of living in the Soviet Union. 955 00:59:25.550 --> 00:59:28.050 I mean, since it's amply documented, it wasn't really an 956 00:59:28.530 --> 00:59:31.780 enjoyable existence for people. Somebody would be on a bread 957 00:59:31.820 --> 00:59:33.940 line for three hours and finding at the end that 958 00:59:34.139 --> 00:59:36.380 there's no bread left. How about some bread? 959 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:36.559 Right. 960 00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:40.250 So, I mean, it's, you know, I just think it's very, 961 00:59:40.269 --> 00:59:42.449 very important that the government has to put its best 962 00:59:42.469 --> 00:59:47.570 foot forward. And speaking on behalf of its values within 963 00:59:47.590 --> 00:59:51.269 the government, sometimes we wonder what those values are as 964 00:59:51.530 --> 00:59:54.929 they evolve. But getting back to poor old Lawrence Wright, 965 00:59:56.190 --> 00:59:59.469 if he had to give like a three-minute or two-minute 966 01:00:00.130 --> 01:00:03.510 you know, dressing down. Yeah, I'm Lawrence Wright. Just give 967 01:00:03.550 --> 01:00:06.130 it to me good, you know. What would you say 968 01:00:06.150 --> 01:00:09.969 to him in person that why he became the subject 969 01:00:10.110 --> 01:00:13.719 of the focus of your book, The Manchurian Journalist? What 970 01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:17.119 were the roots, the goods on Lawrence Wright that really 971 01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:21.500 the American public, you know, need to hear if they 972 01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:25.619 haven't read your book? I think it's a lack of transparency. 973 01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:25.719 Okay. 974 01:00:26.250 --> 01:00:28.489 And I think that's one thing journalists ought to offer 975 01:00:28.590 --> 01:00:34.889 to those they're writing for and about is transparency. I 976 01:00:34.909 --> 01:00:37.250 think it's important for us to know who our journalists are. 977 01:00:38.070 --> 01:00:41.380 And I think it's incumbent upon journalists not to hide 978 01:00:41.409 --> 01:00:45.460 their background or those favors they might have been granted 979 01:00:46.179 --> 01:00:49.460 or those people in their background who might have promoted 980 01:00:49.500 --> 01:00:54.860 their careers who have other agendas besides a good, free, 981 01:00:55.059 --> 01:01:03.219 independent press. in which journalists are expressing their skills by 982 01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:10.400 recording factually what's going on. The problem with the Central 983 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:14.659 Intelligence Agency doing domestic work in the United States is 984 01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:21.199 they influence political processes and they influence public perceptions about 985 01:01:22.579 --> 01:01:23.159 the world. 986 01:01:22.980 -->

01:01:23.460 We live in. 987 01:01:24.059 --> 01:01:28.179 And so influencing those public perceptions domestically seems to me 988 01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:30.360 to be an anti-democratic value. 989 01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:34.460 Oh, yeah. I think you remember all the 50 some 990 01:01:34.780 --> 01:01:41.429 odd intelligence experts who think that Joe Biden's son's Hunter 991 01:01:41.449 --> 01:01:45.889 Biden's laptop has earmarks of Russian disinformation. John Brennan, thank 992 01:01:45.909 --> 01:01:50.309 you very much. Very concerned, but that's a good example, right? 993 01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:56.530 That's one good example. There's many other good examples out there. Lately, 994 01:01:56.550 --> 01:02:01.289 I've been focusing more on the aspect of corruption. And 995 01:02:01.309 --> 01:02:05.090 we see this blatant level of corruption going on in 996 01:02:05.130 --> 01:02:08.710 front of us. And we don't think about the roots 997 01:02:09.250 --> 01:02:12.820 of all that. And I think we don't think about 998 01:02:13.820 --> 01:02:18.139 how long and how institutionalized corruption has become in this country. 999 01:02:18.750 --> 01:02:22.699 and the favoritism that exists that results in problems for 1000 01:02:23.030 --> 01:02:23.960 common people. 1001 01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:26.880 Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, it's, yeah. I mean, I'll 1002 01:02:26.900 --> 01:02:32.139 just say that, you know, there's, I think there's a 1003 01:02:32.980 --> 01:02:36.690 money network that is so powerful. Maybe Trump is dismantling it. 1004 01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:41.320 He's a man with many, many faults. But USAID, I mean, remember, 1005 01:02:41.389 --> 01:02:45.889 I spoke to William Colby before he died. Funny but true. 1006 01:02:45.909 --> 01:02:48.389 I actually reached out to him. He was, talk about transparency. 1007 01:02:48.610 --> 01:02:50.530 His number, his name and number was in the phone book. 1008 01:02:50.550 --> 01:02:52.090 And I found it. I was in Columbia at the time. 1009 01:02:52.769 --> 01:02:54.510 And I called him. I spoke to him for a 1010 01:02:54.530 --> 01:02:56.250 couple of minutes. And I wanted to be his agent 1011 01:02:56.590 --> 01:02:59.809 to do a, to give a paid seminar in Columbia. 1012 01:02:59.949 --> 01:03:03.840 Long story short, turns out his wife worked for USAID. 1013 01:03:04.500 --> 01:03:07.000 Tell you something. And it was interesting. And, but then 1014 01:03:07.699 --> 01:03:11.460 it comes out that, hey, maybe USAID would receive over 1015 01:03:11.500 --> 01:03:14.300 time billions of dollars, if not hundreds and hundreds of millions. 1016 01:03:16.110 --> 01:03:19.340 they will influence people in the public sphere, you know? And, 1017 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:25.539 you know, NPR, National Public Radio, and let's face it, 1018 01:03:25.940 --> 01:03:31.269 I'm a conservative. And they know it. And I think 1019 01:03:31.309 --> 01:03:32.809 it's safe to say they won't give me the time 1020 01:03:32.849 --> 01:03:37.369 of day in many, many places simply because, oh, he 1021 01:03:37.389 --> 01:03:39.670 voted for Trump. Oh, he's bad. Oh, you can't let 1022 01:03:39.710 --> 01:03:41.400 him in there. But, I mean, the journalists have an 1023 01:03:41.409 --> 01:03:44.440 important job to do. You may not always like what 1024 01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:47.409 they report, but It's really, really important to have somebody 1025 01:03:47.429 --> 01:03:52.150 like Seymour Hersh digging deep in Fort Benning, Georgia and 1026 01:03:52.190 --> 01:03:55.409 finding out all the dirty details about my line. Yeah. 1027 01:03:55.809 --> 01:04:00.429 That's a bottom, you know? But, I mean, it's important 1028 01:04:00.449 --> 01:04:03.079 to recognize something that there has been, and people say, well, 1029 01:04:03.099 --> 01:04:06.440 why did Trump talk? It's horrible. Oh, he's toxic. It's 1030 01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:09.480 the worst thing. He's an attack on democracy. He's like 1031 01:04:09.539 --> 01:04:12.960 battery acid poured over the Mona Lisa. Okay. Do you 1032 01:04:12.980 --> 01:04:19.570 know why? the Trump presidency surged, Trump as a candidate 1033 01:04:20.030 --> 01:04:23.250 and his platform surged, is because we felt so screwed 1034 01:04:23.869 --> 01:04:29.340 and so patronized by the ruling elites that we felt 1035 01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:31.619 like we just didn't have a place at the table anymore. 1036 01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:34.860 And so that's why it happened, you know, and people 1037 01:04:34.900 --> 01:04:36.659 in the Ivy League and all that. And, you know, 1038 01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:41.809 we just felt like we saw all the patronizing, condescending 1039 01:04:41.829 --> 01:04:47.110 people leaders in institutions that we just felt like we 1040 01:04:47.139 --> 01:04:49.659 were all, we're pissed upon, you know? 1041 01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:54.590 And I see that and I recognize that as true. 1042 01:04:55.030 --> 01:04:59.530 How dysfunctional does government have to become before there is 1043 01:04:59.590 --> 01:05:06.849 an eruption by the people that result in change? And 1044 01:05:06.889 --> 01:05:09.449 I think a lot of people who endorsed Trump were 1045 01:05:09.510 --> 01:05:12.150 looking for change and looking for an end to chaos 1046 01:05:12.889 --> 01:05:16.050 within the government, from both sides, from the Democrats, from 1047 01:05:16.090 --> 01:05:21.900 the Republicans. And the solution, I don't think, really fit 1048 01:05:21.940 --> 01:05:28.300 the problem because if you want government to work efficiently 1049 01:05:28.360 --> 01:05:32.670 and orderly and in the best interest of everybody in 1050 01:05:32.710 --> 01:05:37.170 this country, then you don't endorse the kind of blatant 1051 01:05:37.190 --> 01:05:41.119 corruption that's going on in the midst of this presidency. 1052 01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:44.989 I mean, the thing is, I will admit this, this 1053 01:05:45.030 --> 01:05:49.230

surprised my brother from Delaware, who, what I think, and 1054 01:05:49.250 --> 01:05:52.809 Joe Biden and all that. Although it's funny because her 1055 01:05:52.889 --> 01:05:55.320 wife's family from Delaware, they did not like Joe Biden. 1056 01:05:55.739 --> 01:06:01.820 But one time I told my brother a story about 1057 01:06:02.420 --> 01:06:04.519 Donald Trump's pilot who got fired because he said, hey, 1058 01:06:04.539 --> 01:06:06.440 this plane's got problems. And the guy who told it 1059 01:06:06.460 --> 01:06:10.090 to me was like a former pilot A high-level executive 1060 01:06:10.210 --> 01:06:14.150 or person working for the John Birch Society told me 1061 01:06:14.489 --> 01:06:16.090 that he went to Mass one day and he met 1062 01:06:16.190 --> 01:06:17.150 Clem's pilot and. 1063 01:06:18.929 --> 01:06:19.789 Got to be friendly. 1064 01:06:19.909 --> 01:06:22.769 And one time he saw him again after church. He said, well, 1065 01:06:22.789 --> 01:06:27.699 you know, how's Trump doing? Oh, man, he fired me. What? What? Yeah, 1066 01:06:27.739 --> 01:06:31.699 I told him the campaign plane had some really big problems. 1067 01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:34.219 And I don't know politics, Mr. Trump, but I do 1068 01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:36.659 know planes. And this plane, you got to do an overhaul, man. 1069 01:06:37.059 --> 01:06:39.820 Or it could be I'm safe. And he fired him. Now, 1070 01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:43.500 I bring this to light because of the fact that 1071 01:06:44.239 --> 01:06:49.949 it's really bad to not welcome bad news. And if 1072 01:06:49.989 --> 01:06:53.849 you don't welcome bad news, you create a culture whereby 1073 01:06:53.949 --> 01:06:56.110 people will not give you the true news. They'll give 1074 01:06:56.150 --> 01:06:58.610 you polished news. They won't tell you the truth. And 1075 01:06:58.630 --> 01:07:02.969 the worst thing for a commander, a general, a colonel, 1076 01:07:03.849 --> 01:07:05.710 is a yes man who doesn't tell you the truth 1077 01:07:05.750 --> 01:07:08.570 about what's really going down with the troops. And then 1078 01:07:08.590 --> 01:07:10.289 people get killed. People get hurt. So it's important to 1079 01:07:10.309 --> 01:07:12.780 be able to go to somebody and say, hey, this 1080 01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:15.739 is pretty bad. Let me tell you why. And open 1081 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:19.599 up the microphone to people who give a counter-narrative. It's messy, 1082 01:07:20.059 --> 01:07:22.019 but we need to have that, man. We really need 1083 01:07:22.039 --> 01:07:26.260 to have that. And sadly... It's not just, you know, 1084 01:07:26.460 --> 01:07:28.679 the counter-narrative of what's really going down with Donald Trump. 1085 01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:31.610 It's been decades of the counter-narrative of what's really going 1086 01:07:31.639 --> 01:07:36.449 down with all the 15 presidents in our memory and 1087 01:07:36.469 --> 01:07:39.250 their administrations and what's been going on and the stupidity 1088 01:07:39.769 --> 01:07:44.150 that's been ignored or hushed or suppressed, you know, for 1089 01:07:44.170 --> 01:07:45.809 so many years because of the fact that you're rocking 1090 01:07:45.829 --> 01:07:47.690 the boat, man. Don't do that, you know. You'll lose 1091 01:07:47.710 --> 01:07:50.489 your job. But, I mean, it's an important thing. I'm 1092 01:07:50.670 --> 01:07:56.070 glad you wrote this book. And But also You have 1093 01:07:56.090 --> 01:07:59.070 to recognize I think your profession Is a damn difficult 1094 01:07:59.110 --> 01:08:01.650 profession Because You gotta get Dude you gotta get some 1095 01:08:01.710 --> 01:08:03.510 stories And they gotta be big And you know And 1096 01:08:04.309 --> 01:08:06.570 by the nature of it You know you've got Your 1097 01:08:06.610 --> 01:08:08.670 boss at home Who says You're sleeping on the couch 1098 01:08:08.690 --> 01:08:14.190 man You're not making enough money As a reporter Get 1099 01:08:14.210 --> 01:08:17.050 some Break some big stories And get a promotion And 1100 01:08:17.069 --> 01:08:19.380 maybe you know Triple your salary At some point You 1101 01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:21.989 know anyway By the way folks We've been on But 1102 01:08:22.020 --> 01:08:27.939 the very fascinating guy is Dan Lussater. The Manchurian journalist, 1103 01:08:27.979 --> 01:08:30.180 Lawrence Wright, the CIA and the corruption of American journalism. 1104 01:08:30.619 --> 01:08:35.710 His website is www.danlussater.com. It's been great having you on 1105 01:08:35.729 --> 01:08:38.390 Quorum Radio. Dan, any other books besides this? Forgive me 1106 01:08:38.409 --> 01:08:40.989 if I'm remiss and I can't call all your titles. 1107 01:08:41.529 --> 01:08:44.810 Well, I wrote a collection of columns, but I am 1108 01:08:44.850 --> 01:08:46.109 working on a book right now on. 1109 01:08:48.229 --> 01:08:52.220 This case of corruption, police corruption, political corruption in Indiana 1110 01:08:52.340 --> 01:08:56.060 in 1978 around a series of murders and bombings in 1111 01:08:56.079 --> 01:09:02.920 the Speedway, Indiana, outside the United States. we're working on 1112 01:09:03.340 --> 01:09:09.340 a book and podcast and documentary film on this project. 1113 01:09:09.420 --> 01:09:13.380 And it's very interesting in how the parallels of corruption 1114 01:09:14.300 --> 01:09:18.550 in 1978 teach us lessons about today and what. 1115 01:09:19.930 --> 01:09:20.189 down. 1116 01:09:20.859 --> 01:09:24.909 Great being on with Dan LaSauder, author of the Manchurian Journalist, 1117 01:09:24.949 --> 01:09:27.729 Lawrence Wright, the CIA and the Corruption of American Journalism. Folks, 1118 01:09:28.270 --> 01:09:30.729 we got some incredible guests on Quorum Radio. Dan has 1119 01:09:30.750 --> 01:09:32.229 been one of them. Thanks a million for being on 1120 01:09:32.250 --> 01:09:33.430 the show, Dan. I hope we can do it again. 1121 01:09:33.449 --> 01:09:34.430 My pleasure. 1122 01:09:35.060 --> 01:09:39.800 You're listening to Quorum Radio. Hey folks, have you seen SpiritDaily.com 1123 01:09:39.890 --> 01:09:44.510 and its amazing and mysterious news stories? SpiritDaily.com has testimonies 1124 01:09:44.550 --> 01:09:47.869 about miracles, articles about strange occurrences both from the present 1125 01:09:48.069 --> 01:09:52.579 and from the past, and the Christian angle to current events, news, science, spiritual, 1126 01:09:52.659 --> 01:09:56.180 and even physical health. Also... Read spiritdaily.com as the accounts 1127 01:09:56.220 --> 01:09:59.680 of the supernatural, the demonic, preternatural phenomena, and even exorcists 1128 01:09:59.739 --> 01:10:02.560 expelling demons from time to time. But more importantly, you'll 1129 01:10:02.579 --> 01:10:05.229 find uplifting writing about the Christian faith and family and 1130 01:10:05.470 --> 01:10:08.149 our prayer, the great power of the rosary, the saints, 1131 01:10:08.250 --> 01:10:10.789 and more. Want great books like Cleansing Your Home from 1132 01:10:10.890 --> 01:10:14.810 Evil or The Amazing Padre Pio? Again, go to spiritdaily.com. 1133 01:10:14.949 --> 01:10:18.569 And for exclusive content, subscribe to Spirit Daily Reports. Help 1134 01:10:18.630 --> 01:10:22.199 Quorum Radio. Go to spiritdaily.com. That's spiritdaily.com. 1135 01:10:26.819 --> 01:10:34.939 They say there's always magic in the air But when 1136 01:10:35.189 --> 01:10:41.470 you're walking down the street And you. 1137 01:10:41.170 --> 01:10:49.069 Ain't had enough to eat The glitter arrives And you're 1138 01:10:49.109 --> 01:10:55.010 nowhere They say the. 1139 01:10:59.489 --> 01:11:01.390 Thank you. 1140 01:11:01.970 --> 01:11:03.529 Thank you. 1141 01:11:21.189 --> 01:11:26.640 And one day I won't even shine your shoes on 1142 01:11:26.939 --> 01:11:35.520 Broadway They say that I won't last long on Broadway. 1143 01:11:36.180 --> 01:11:39.520 On Broadway I'll catch you. 1144 01:11:39.100 --> 01:11:43.949 With my bus home, they all say. 1145 01:11:54.710 --> 01:12:00.420 And I won't be till I'm a star on Broadway. 1146 01:12:00.840 --> 01:12:01.819 On Broadway. 1147 01:12:24.090 --> 01:12:28.859 I know they are Cause I can play this here 1148 01:12:29.060 --> 01:12:37.329 guitar And I won't be till I'm a star On Broadway. 1149 01:12:52.279 --> 01:12:55.710 I'll make you laugh. 1150 01:12:55.850 --> 01:13:01.189 Everybody, everybody's gonna know me. 1151 01:13:02.140 --> 01:13:04.060 Oh, I've been down the wrong way. 1152 01:13:04.380 --> 01:13:04.439 Oh.