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Hello everyone, I'm Al Neely with Listen Up Podcast, and today we have Nathan Elliott.
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He's a third generation descendant of the Nansmitt, Nottaway, and Sapony tribes in Eastern Virginia.
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Say hello.
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Hi, how are you doing, everyone?
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Good.
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Good, good, good.
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So, uh, Nathan, let's see.
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You're a third generation wood turner and wood carver.
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So explain to us what a wood turner is.
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Um, it's a uh unique technique.
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Uh it was uh used maybe three or four hundred years, uh maybe f farther back, uh, but it's still being used.
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Okay.
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Uh in modern times.
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Um Wood Turner is a person that, you know, take a block of wood and it's on a what they call a lay that rotates the block of wood.
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And so while it's rotating, we'll take a gouge or different types of tools to almost shape it, uh, that piece of wood, into different uh objects and different uh T pieces of um artwork that I do.
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Um some people uh it had multiple purposes, you know.
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Uh it's it's almost like uh there, you know, you have a uh person who works clay and that clay is rotating.
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Same thing with wood, it's about we're not using our hands, the wood is rotating on a horizontal axis, and so we, you know, just a little bit more uh more wood that's uh flying everywhere.
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Okay, gotcha.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So how is it that you are a descendant of the Nanzmitt, not away in Saponi tribes?
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How does that so many You you're going back in history for um uh a lot of genealogy of um um like my sixth great grandfather, uh he was a Richeson, and the Richmonds also are connected to the Nasmans and the not uh Nasmans and the Saponis.
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Right.
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Also, uh we have the Pedifers in our family, so they married into the Bass, dealing with the Nas Nasmans, the uh the chief of the Nasmans, uh daughter, um they were married into the bass, and so we just carried that name, using that last name, you know, as a uh pretty much a reference, uh just connecting to those two groups.
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Same thing with the Richmonds, uh you'll find a lot of Saponis uh that are also Nansmen.
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So, like a lot of tribes out west, they are multiple tribes because of family descents that were uh living with Benavos, or they might be, you know, uh living with their patches.
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And so you would get, you know, most people these days uh you ask what tribe you're from.
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You you're thinking one, but they will name off different multiple tribes because it's more respect and recognition of who you are from the different, and then you become, but you're still maybe just a member of one specific tribe.
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But in general, we we most of us will call out multiple if we have multiple descendants, uh, if we descended from multiple different tribes.
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Right.
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So this um your skills for wood turning and uh carving, um, where did you learn those things?
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Um, like you said, um third generation okay.
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And with the wood turning, I used to see my grandfather used to turn a lot of uh different types of pieces of wood that was real uh nice and the designs and they had more time back then.
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Um so they took more time and when was when did he live?
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With from what to what uh grandfather uh Nasmund Suffolk uh was living in uh Suffolk area and when was he born?
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Oh what was it?
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Uh 19, uh think it was 16, something like that.
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Right.
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And you know, um and now I'm gonna not really quote it because I didn't really have it off my head, but you know, but dealing with Roundabout, yes.
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Yeah, around in that time uh century.
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Um, but uh then you know my father uh was also doing woodwork and uh have some of my grandfather's uh tools and got a lot of his wood bowls that he had.
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Really?
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So his tools when he uh he started pretty young.
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I would say it's hard to tell.
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You know, um there was you had multiple.
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They had um back then, they could do a lot just about everything and anything what needs to be done, you know, back then that generation.
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Um so, you know, it just took a while.
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Well, yeah.
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If you had somebody to teach you and show you, um, but yeah, I mean, um, like my father, he s grew up and my grandfather makes make different stuff, and I we would go past there, and I would see him doing wood turning times and stuff.
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So I guess uh over the time, you know, I just didn't start when I was young doing it, but just being exposed to it, and then your maturity level starts to grow and you become who who you feel comfortable of who you are.
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Uh you start to see things that you like to do.
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Yeah.
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Load full transcript
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And then you start to recognize, oh, I see my grandfather or my grandmother used to do this, or you know, father used to do that, mother used to do that.
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And so it's you you become different parts of those multiple generations.
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Oh, I I see, gotcha.
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Now you um you met I met you at a dedication in Virginia Beach, and at that time you had created a is it a vase or a pot?
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Um a vase, uh well, it's a bowl.
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A bowl, yeah.
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A big uh bowl.
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Um most bowls that uh we create is usually uh uh something that can be used.
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You know, not you know, you it's no different from a plate that we use today in modern times.
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Um there was just something that you make and you decorate, and the plates that you see these days, whoever made that plate might put different designs that they might have thought of, or what they grew up in seeing.
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Same thing with the wood bowls, uh saying uh pretty much uh, you know, what what I grew up in seeing a lot of their uh nature scenes, or just been uh have a closer understanding of the uh nature and wood and respecting it.
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Gotcha.
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Um you've done you've been doing this for a while.
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Do you have uh any or do you have many uh pieces of artwork that are around the country in different places?
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I have I had pieces that was uh a lot of art museums would contact me and they would ask uh would you be willing to uh display uh your artwork, you know, and so they were asked uh would uh certain things that they've seen or certain things that I have, could I send them pictures of it?
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And and I say, well, you know, pick what you like, and you know, I will send it to you.
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And I have uh pieces that went to uh North Dakota at a museum.
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Also uh dealing with uh other art pieces that I've made um the Yorktown Museum for dealing with the 250th anniversary of the uh independence.
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Uh I had two pieces that was put uh in there.
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Also um I have some uh wood flutes.
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Um that's uh in Jamestown permanent display in their museum.
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Okay, and so also uh get a lot of museums and gift stores that were asked could they, you know, purchase some of my items and uh put in their gift stores and stuff.
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So yeah, yeah, been busy.
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Oh, okay.
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So you play the flute, right?
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Yes.
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Okay.
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And a water drum?
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Uh it's a what is a water drum?
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Well, it's um they have different different cultures, different tribes have different style water drums.
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Uh this is more like an Iroquois uh style drum.
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Uh a little small hand drum.
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Um is not like the used for uh social dance.
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Um one person plays it.
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It's not like uh why is it called a water drum?
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Does it contain water in the floor?
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What happens is that sometimes you they got a little plug in it and you the the height or the deer skin is uh it dries that you put on top that you beat on.
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And so they uh what we do is just uh put a little bit of water in it and just flip it over just to soften the head so that the head can be maneuverable so that we can tighten it up and then it tightens up and then you can adjust the sound and stuff too.
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So it's different purposes with that water drum.
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Uh some can change the sounds and stuff because of, you know, you're taking up the volume.
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Right.
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Uh some of them are used to uh, like I said, you know, just to soften the material of the uh height that we use.
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Yeah, so um I remember having a conversation with uh a chief one time, and uh we were just talking about him hunting and um how he had um been raised to use every part of whatever he killed, and um I I thought that was interesting, you know.
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Are you a hunter?
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Um my father, he's the real hunter.
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I used to do some squirrel hunting.
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Okay, um, but you're not making water drums out of squirrel hides, no, no, no, no, but I do have um friends uh that that hunts.
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Uh uh my father used to hunt.
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Okay.
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And uh I still got some of the highs that he had.
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Okay.
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We would uh do a lot of um uh tanning, uh uh dealing with the highs and stuff.
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Right.
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And the uh what they call um brain tanning.
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Uh what it is is that the uh the the deer, the fluids in the deer uh brain, you put it on the hide because of the acidic pH balance will curl the the uh when when you get the skin so that you wouldn't lose the hair, because the hair will fall out if the is the hair follicles won't curl in, lock itself in.
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So uh the acid in the uh in the fluid, you wipe it up there and then that's from the brain?
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Yes.
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It's the only places you can find it?
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No, no, it's man-made stuff.
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That's all it is, a chemical chemical uh pH balance that that that just does a uh a chemical reaction to the hair farticles.
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Right.
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And it curls it up into the skin so that it can lock the hair out so that the hair won't fall out.
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And you know, but you call it that because of the uh, you know, that's the way they used to do it a long time ago.
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You can buy solutions now instead of doing it the old way.
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And then you also smoke it for any type of uh bugs and parasites and stuff on it.
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So it's different, those are old traditional ways of doing that.
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Um but just going back to using everything that uh that uh if not just killing uh uh animal using everything, but also dealing with nature and wood.
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Um there was a tree that was uh the limb had broke off because of that last windstorm that we had, and I saw the uh somebody had already cut up the big limb and stacked all the logs out there.
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So I stopped past and asked the uh gentleman that lived there, you know, it was a cedar tree.
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So I like working with cedal wood.
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And so I asked him, I said, uh, yeah, would you uh be uh willing to, you know, I'll take the wood from, you know, if you if you want to, he said, sure, come.
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So I end up coming back to go back and get the wood and nice truckload and stuff.
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And uh I called my partner, uh Rachel, and she I was telling her that the sap on the tree is starting to rise and come forth from behind the bark.
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And this is one example of using everything.
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We make bark baskets, cedar bark baskets out of the logs or that cedar limb.
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What it is is that um when the sap is starting to come forth, yeah, it's make it easier to peel.
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I have pictures of her doing it and stuff, and you know, uh I don't know if this is a good time to show you, but but you know, just seeing how people never uh seen people uh just You can send them to me.
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Okay, and it just peels the bark from a log and watch it.
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I mean, it's almost like peeling your skin, and you can make different types of baskets and other items.
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So you're doing this once it the sap starts to.
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Oh, the sap was coming out of it early.
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Okay.
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And so, you know, uh Rachel came over and she uh started to uh peel the bark so that we can make some bark baskets.
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And then what's left over is like a somebody look like somebody took all the clothes off the tree, you know, nice and smooth.
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And so it's just one round uh piece of wood with no bark.
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And so what I'm gonna do is take that piece and put it on my lathe, and now I'm gonna make uh different wood bowls and stuff.
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So instead of me just wasting the bark, now that's another purpose of that, you know.
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So we had two main purposes on that.
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Uh getting the bark and one to make the wood bowl.
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And so uh you're looking at that tree, somebody wanted, you know, if nobody didn't want the the limb, they could have just threw it, threw it away.
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But you see things that what somebody might throw away, you can see purpose, multiple purposes.
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And really, um I think that's a good example of how not to be wasteful.
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You can use everything.
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Just about, you know, if it's from artwork to decorative things or uh uh a lot of people know about cedar.
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They know that it keeps bugs away.
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Yeah.
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And so, you know, uh so it's it can have multiple purposes in dealing with um, you know, just holding on to and not wasting nothing.
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Right.
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And so yeah, yeah.
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So you have flutes, yes, and you play.
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Yes.
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Um, you have are you working on a CD or you have one out already?
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I have one out already.
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Um Is it are you able to have it streamed?
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I mean, is it already streamed?
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Can you okay yes, yeah.
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Um uh is I have a Native American uh uh CD.
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Okay it's being sold in Jamestown.
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Um also uh I think it's on Apple and might be it's on Spotify.
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I I don't even keep up with the distribution of it and stuff.
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Um but you know uh I just enjoy doing it.
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Uh a lot of times with playing my flute.
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Um the the sound of the flute is so relaxing.
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And so many people Is that what you find yourself listening to?
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Yes.
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Uh my own self.
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Yeah.
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You know, so I mean it can put you to sleep.
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Uh I I like to record nature.
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And when I record nature, um and put that in the background of flutes of the flute.
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It puts a person, you know.
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I just when people come and see me perform, I, you know, I just tell them, you know, just sit back, relax, take not think about all the things that's going on, but just listen to the different sounds of nature in the background, all the water, and and me uh uh not just performing, but pretty much uh interacting with the different sounds of nature.
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Right.
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You know?
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So indigenous people are a spiritual people.
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And so obviously playing the flute, working with the wood, everything that comes from nature, um I guess that brings you into a place where you're spiritual and you have respect for nature and things like that.
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It so um do you find that is it something that's continued over a period of time, or are you gradually are we losing that as far as the indigenous people are concerned?
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Or I don't think no, no, you you'll never lose that because that's a foundation.
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It's almost like uh and why would you s why I want to go a little bit further and say I know why you're doing it because of the nature and everything like that, but what is the belief behind that spiritual?
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I with me, yeah, uh, I really trust God to lead me in the things I do, and He had created me to do these things.
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Okay.
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So there are a lot of things that uh I looked at and said, I'd like to do that, but I'm not interested in doing that.
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And the things that I do is because I was led to do these things, uh dealing with the music, and uh I felt that God was just leading me to make that type of music because of so many people are stressed these days.
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Okay.
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When you say God, um I talk about your your uh grandparents.
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Did they believe in the the Christian God or they believed in the a spiritual being.
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So let's talk about that.
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And is that who you actually believe?
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What do you believe in?
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See, this is where we have a problem with understanding who God is, um individual.
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Okay.
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Uh first of all, you can be taught who God is and never have a experience of knowing who God is in your life.
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Okay.
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And so yes.
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From an indigenous
perspective.
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But not just indigenous because of even the way the system that was uh brought forth to America and to other countries um that is a system there's a lot of things that that's in the church that wasn't really in the Bible.
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Sometimes you have you're talking about the Christian faith now that was brought from people from Europe into the and so but you just can't single out just the Christian faith even multiple different faiths can be used to control the people.
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Yeah okay gotcha you see what I'm saying yeah and so I I look at it as an understanding that yes I grew up in the the Christian understanding and and all the positive things this it's some negative things that you can focus in on and if you focus in on that that'll run you away from the Christian mindset or the Christian church because man because you're putting all your faith and energy into believing that uh if this man represents God he's perfect.
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Right.
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Yeah and so you know with even with Native Americans the culture um it is how much of what I'm trying to figure out is how much of that Native American because as a Native American they nothing about Europeans nothing about Christianity any of those things and they didn't believe and they didn't have faith in that so how much have you have you seen it change or what do you think how's it affected you it it evolves yeah um we understand there is a creator and most cultures right believe that there is a creator.
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Right.
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A lot of um I can't speak for all digital people and each indigenous group and culture has their own what they say deity or different gods or or you know one God and so it's multiple and so I cannot comment on those yeah but let's talk about how you work just the understanding that the faith of knowing that there is one God that uh a creator who wants us to respect his creation.
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Right.
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And that's why he's the creator and it's hard to give a creator a specific name because then you limit him to that one name and you cannot limit them.
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Right.
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You see what I'm saying?
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So we just call him the creator.
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And so um just um trying to do my part yeah and acknowledging him but being used by him to be a blessing to whoever comes around me.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:06.640
Even talking to yo you know is I believe that you know is it was already ordained for us to talk like this.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:07.119
Right.
00:26:07.759 --> 00:38:50.880
It was already ordained for me to it was in my heart to create music that was peaceful that was relaxing that would uh take away a lot of stress so like with my flutes uh music that's what I want to do I believe that a lot of us got away from nature uh and so when you get away from nature and how we started you get away from where you started and you know then you're missing something and so if we would keep nature when some part of our life going outside recognizing acknowledging it touching it listening to it from the birds to the uh different animals out in the woods the wind you can be taught a lot you can be taught a lot yeah yeah all right many get off the the music and the flute thing you actually you performed at the Kennedy Center yes oh okay how did that come about and and tell us what the experience was like it came about um one day the chief of the NASMA Keith Anderson um he had um asked me was I interested because uh he he knew uh a lady who was a member of the Pamunkey tribe that was putting together a Native American program at the Kennedy Center okay and he told her he said yeah I mean he said yeah I told her you like one of the best fluke players on the East Coast I was like okay yeah yeah no pressure no pressure now right and so it it I'm like yeah yes I perform at different places but you know you go from so many people who've been performing professionally never performed at the Kennedy Center right and I never performed professionally I get to go perform at the Kennedy Center that's awesome and so you know but that goes back to you know things that being ordained that you you know but it's not you who did it right it's not me who did it so I just got to give things uh the the recognition to God just just letting him lead your path and so yeah he's and so I call and went there and performed it was a wonderful time I mean it was the unity of the different tribes um also uh just the and where were the tribes from well um you had local tribes yeah and then you also had uh I believe some of them from uh from the um from the six nations the Iroquois tribes up north some from down south North Carolina and uh I believe a couple of them was from out uh west okay and so it was just the intention of acknowledging um the Native American people and to do that in a place that um so many people who was on a certain level of professionalism or certain level of being in famous you know it it makes a difference it makes a difference that's awesome you uh make jewelry as well huh you make jewelry yeah as well did you make that what you have on oh yeah yeah yeah um this is uh so uh wampum or this is like the third time I've seen you and you haven't brought me any oh well you know what I got in the car uh car right now what's that I have some uh deer antler rings that I'm making oh okay so you okay I I have to take a look at them when we're done here okay okay so Joey what is that this is wampum or what it's cohort clamshells oh okay and so is it the inside of the clamshell it's the inside the purple part and it's very very pretty it it Native Americans it's almost like when the Europeans first came it's almost like a trading currency I can see
that and so the Europeans started seeing how we recognize that as value so they would try to collect all these shills and uh you know trade for furs and stuff with wampum or and then you you go to uh a lot of metal or glass beads so a lot of trading back and forth on a lot of what who says what is value and what ain't it's all the individual you know right one of the things I didn't notice is um turquoise I I was out west Arizona um a lot of jewelry was made there from the indigenous people yeah so you usually find things that are indigenous to that area yeah so you find jewelry made from things that are indigenous to that area I don't think we have any around here no no so it's mostly pearls and pearls or the wampum you will find mostly uh okay uh will be a um main like turquoise for out west uh the wampum would be ours for the east coast or the eastland woodland Indian tribes that's awesome yeah the um the you make silver and gold too right um I make silver smithing yeah silversmithing I can do both but gold prices are so high I stick to silver people do ask about gold but uh what's entailed in silversmithing uh you know it's it's very it's not tedious but you have to respect it uh have some knowledge of it whereas uh knowing what to do uh dealing with the purity of the silver um okay knowing what to do dealing with uh how to use a torch uh soldering um it's so many different it is it's like your whatever vision that you have and I got a couple of pieces that I was working on today I was putting some wampum in it and putting some uh wampum and some opal Australian opal uh into a um I felt uh because of I like traditional stuff so I do use the uh the uh wampum uh shell yeah but also you have to know that you people got different tastes I like the Australian opal because it's so colorful and Native Americans you know if you go to a pow wow the power wild is so colorful yeah absolutely and so you know the woman is pretty the purple is pretty but uh I like to give it that little extra sparkle you know and and so it's it can be who you are most regalia at a pow is not the same it's I don't think you can find two pieces two two uh people wearing the exact same regalia you always uh have something creative or you create something extra to represent who you are and what you're right so you're you're individually you're making these things you're not duplicating no so it's it's a your artist vision you're artist vision and you're that's why it'll never be the same yeah you're telling people who you are what you like uh some people might put turtles wolves bears eagles on their regalia and that's those are connections and letting people know uh what type of animals they like um the colors could be represented uh so many different ways of uh expressing yourself through your regalia awesome yeah uh talk about the indigenous people around here um the tribes and something that's unique with the indigenous tribes in this area that people may not know oh it's
so much um because there's a history of people that has not been told directly from this area and you think about it the United States pretty much was this area beginning but you when they got started when they got started right they they came uh from um europe yeah and it was up and down the east coast up and down the east coast uh even though they um you know different europeans landed different locations right but right the the the those locations did not last long um but in this area this is they pretty much look at it as the beginning because it there was no um break it was you here and they grew from here uh but the people that was here did not most Native American tribes pretty much uh they if they felt like you wasn't someone that would harm them and they wanted to express uh gratitude or to acknowledge who you are and to uh just to welcome you they did that but a lot of they uh got taken advantage of right and so uh the a lot of tribes fought each other right a lot of tribes fought each other for and that was for territory well what was it mainly for multiple reasons politics the tribes uh they if you haven't it hasn't been taught but it's out there if you really look that there was so many different tribes in this area with some tribes had two or three thousand people in the tribes some I mean big clusters uh that we we're not we weren't like the uh out west we used to seeing outwest tribes because of TV but you know they was playing Indians and they followed the buffalo and different locations and stuff you know right here you're farmers you know uh fishermen fishermen and you stayed in one location so you had big villages right here right and so they was all over you know you had the what the power confederacy you know that was just one main place with multiple tribes up under them yeah so you know what do you what do you call that I mean there wasn't no nobody that wasn't here and it just free land yeah so most of the time you would say that they coexisted in a peaceful manner?
00:38:51.119 --> 00:39:52.400
Yeah yeah most of the time they did um if you're talking about peaceful manner your declaration of independence was pretty much designed behind the uh the um the Hundasani or the Iroquois law of peace and whereas the uh if you do some research you'll find out that Benjamin Franklin knew about the Iroquois and their law of peace were um they were multiple tribes Iroquois tribes that were fighting against each other and this one uh Native American had came up and designed a wampum belt to do and to talk to these different tribes and bringing them together and coming up with different laws so that they can come together in that war but be stronger.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:40:47.440
You look at the the dollar bill and you see that eagle with the 13 um arrows in his uh tilings they got that from the uh the um Iroquois design oh really yeah the Iroquois also had the same mindset of one with but so strong but all of us together we are stronger yeah and so that's the same thing with the uh 13 arrows and stuff that that's awesome it's very awesome see I didn't know that it was yeah it's a lot of history that and I mean you would think but we need to but it's the education is not there to be shown um then it's not being promoted.
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:58.079
And why do you think that is a lot of people want to say that we didn't get ideals from other cultures.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:36.239
We didn't come to the it's so much even the lot of words we use are dealing with names of animals and stuff are iguanquin words you know raccoon is iguanquan word you know and so a lot of the local areas are Native American words right and so most young people they just think it's a name but if you start telling them that oh no that's that's Native American word that's native then they have a different perspective of you.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:36.800
Right.
00:41:36.960 --> 00:42:00.239
So you think that's intentionally done so that you wouldn't give you credit to where credit's due but if you don't tell nobody about it who was the saying that uh even though I doubt it can't say that they won the war but they always say whoever won the war uh writes the story.
00:42:00.480 --> 00:43:51.360
Gotcha I understand all right so we're gonna leave off right there um how can we find you or find your your works um let me see one way is Jamestown Jamestown Island um and that's the federal Jamestown settlement is the state those are two museums um manassas uh I believe I still got some at the the Virginia Fine Arts Museum I mean it's it's so many other locations and stuff um because I work full time I try not to do a website but I still um how would I say try to interact uh I would sometimes I like to talk to people out there in uh what is it uh the Portsmouth uh farmers market I go out there and run across a lot of people because it's a military area right and you get a lot of people from other tribes that they come and we just socialize and stuff and that's awesome yeah it it it is and you know uh even like right now in Virginia Beach uh if you want to uh the wood bowl that um they have in their um city hall that uh um me and Rachel put together it it you know they can go see that and she did a wonderful job on that and I mean it just I believe that most people you shouldn't go and do this alone.
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:53.280
What do you mean?
00:43:54.079 --> 00:44:06.639
Well uh I f found myself doing it for a while by myself but it gets You you don't want to sing every choir part.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:07.760
Gotcha.
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:10.480
It all sounds the same.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:11.039
Right.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:19.519
So like with me and her, my partner, she really um I would do it one way.
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:20.400
Yeah.
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:23.119
And but her mind and artistic.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:24.559
Her mind and artistic.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:30.880
And so it comes together and it makes the it it harmonize nicer.
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:31.440
Right.
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:31.920
Yeah.
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:32.960
I could see that.
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:33.599
Yeah.
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah.
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:37.280
That that's that diversity.
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:39.599
The diversity makes a difference.
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:48.719
And and and you want to work through diversity when it seems like it's a clash, but sometimes that clash iron sharpens iron.
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:49.360
Yes.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:51.039
Yeah, that's true.
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:52.239
All right.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.039
Thank you for coming in and and uh talking with us.
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:56.079
Uh thank you for having me.
00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:03.119
And we will uh definitely get some of your artwork and oh yeah and your uh your music.
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:04.719
Oh, wonderful, wonderful.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:08.480
So people can under experience you.
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:09.920
Oh, appreciate it.
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:11.119
Thanks.
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:12.159
Thank you.
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.039
Thanks for uh following us on Listen Up.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:16.880
We'll catch you next time on Listen Up.
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:22.880
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