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WEBVTT 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:02.399 You can't break it up. 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:45.200 Welcome. 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:47.280 We Ain't Dead Yet. 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:51.439 The show where wisdom has wrinkles and our friendship and laughter are real. 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.399 And life for 60 just keeps getting more interesting. 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:55.840 I'm Constance Bauer. 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:57.039 And I'm Lori Dube. 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:04.239 And we'll be your host for Real Talk about life, love, health, friendship, parenting, sex, and more for women 60 and beyond. 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:07.040 No filter, just facts, feelings, and fun. 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:09.280 Because getting older doesn't mean fading out. 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:11.519 It means showing up fully for all of it. 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.920 And we'll explore everything from hot flashes to hot dates together. 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:20.560 Hi, WADY listeners. 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:21.200 Welcome back. 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:22.400 So glad you're here. 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:24.400 We're excited today to talk to our guest. 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:26.159 Constance, who do we got today? 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.640 Well, today we're thrilled to be meeting with Pro-Age Beauty Advocate Elise Harris. 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:39.599 Elise is an international makeup and hair artist with decades of experience and a diverse clientele that has included celebrities, fashion beauty brands, even indie films. 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:47.760 And she's contributed to iconic advertising campaigns and has worked with some of the world's most influential fashion, fine art, and beauty photographers. 00:01:47.760 --> 00:02:01.840 But currently, she is the director, producer, and veteran hair makeup artist behind the award-winning documentary Your Roots Are Showing, which explores the global silver hair movement and challenges societal ageism and sexism. 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:03.120 Welcome, Elise. 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.120 We are so thrilled to have you here. 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:06.719 Thank you so much. 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:08.080 I'm thrilled to be here. 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:09.199 That is great. 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:13.599 You know, we love on this podcast to talk about later in life career pivots. 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:18.960 And, you know, you spent over 45 years as a high-profile international hair and makeup artist. 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:23.439 You worked with icons like Anna Wintour, which I'm very jealous, and Gloria Steinem. 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:29.360 Um, what was it like transitioning into, you know, first-time documentary filmmaker at age 65? 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:30.159 What was that like? 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:31.680 Steep learning curve? 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.000 Oh, yes, a big learning curve. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:41.599 Um, and I would say that it wasn't a career transition so much as um a progression. 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:53.680 Even though I've done hair and makeup for so long, the industry has changed dramatically from when I started to when I morphed quite spontaneously into a filmmaker. 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:58.560 It wasn't a decision that I made, it was just an idea that I had. 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:04.000 And I think the aging piece is that you realize it's now or never. 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:05.840 And I can't get it wrong. 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.159 If it doesn't work out, it's not gonna work out. 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:18.800 But I the idea was so powerful, and I thought the subject was so important that I didn't spend a lot of energy thinking about what I didn't know how to do. 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:20.159 I love that, Elise. 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:29.199 The idea, was there an do you think at 45 you could have had that mindset that if it doesn't work out, if it's not, if it isn't right, it's no big deal. 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.280 Well, me, yes. 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.400 That's kind of the way I roll. 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:40.080 You know, anything I've ever done in my career was kind of uh, you know, I was just winging it. 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:42.159 I was it just jumped in the deep end. 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:47.199 And um, so that, yeah, but at 45, different place in life. 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.479 I had two kids at home and all the things. 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:56.719 So at 65, there was a little more space to, you know, jump into a very deep end. 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:00.960 And a little less stress about if this is not going to work out financially, right? 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.520 You don't have two kids you're supporting or going to college. 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.520 So yeah, maybe it's a little easier with the age piece too, in that way. 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:08.479 Yeah. 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:11.120 And I I really did make it on a shoestring. 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:20.639 I made most of this with my phone, and so much of the content was submitted by women who were willing to self-record their own. 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:22.240 I did not realize that part of it. 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:33.759 You know, before we transition, which of course we're we're here to talk about mostly about the documentary, but I want to ask you one or two questions, if we could, about your sort of, I mean, the uh career before you morphed into this part, the hair and makeup career. 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:37.920 Like, who was your most intimidating icon that you ever did makeup or hair for? 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:38.800 Oh, wow. 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:40.720 There were a lot, you know who it was? 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:41.120 Who? 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.720 Kathleen Battle. 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.759 Really? 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:44.480 Why? 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:51.040 Well, she was notorious, first of all, for you know, eating hair, making people and spitting them out. 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:55.920 I mean, only opera diva ever fired from

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the Met for her attitude. 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:58.480 So she was intimidating. 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:04.800 But, you know, at that point, it was a challenge for me not to do her hair and makeup, but to deal with her personality. 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:09.600 So I kind of like those challenges, even though you know it can be exhausting. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:10.959 And did you win her over? 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:11.759 Was it successful? 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:18.399 I did because I worked with occasions, and I did get a lovely thank you note from her at one point. 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:22.879 So these was hair and makeup something you played around with when you were a little girl? 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:24.000 Very much. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.040 So this hair, very curly, very curly. 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:32.160 It was tremendous uh in terms of the curliness and the volume. 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.600 And this is, you know, before there was leave-in conditioner. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:44.160 So I did spend the better part of my childhood trying to get it straight, which was informative now that you know I look back, how I wound up here. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.480 Yep, that is it's crazy all the years. 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:54.959 I mean, my hair is pretty naturally straight, but I had a daughter, very, very curly, same thing, just spent years trying to get it straight until we realized wait, this is so beautiful. 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:56.800 Let's try to get it curlier, right? 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:58.879 What what product can we get to make it curlier? 00:05:58.879 --> 00:05:59.759 So, yes. 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:04.000 What is a beauty trend currently that you wish would disappear forever? 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.439 Well, we're back on the uh super skinny. 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:07.920 Yeah. 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:08.399 Yeah. 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:11.439 You know, that that's very uh disturbing. 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:18.160 I know I had such hope, you know, about 10 years ago when all these people were coming out curvy models and curvy this and that. 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:19.199 It was so hopeful. 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.680 Now it seems to be swinging back the other way. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:22.000 Why? 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:24.000 Well, you know, it swung too far. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:33.439 Some of these curvy influencers were really beyond curve and they were unhealthy, and a few of them passed away as a result of their obesity. 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:35.600 So then it swings back. 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:41.839 So I kind of love for us to get rid of the extremes and just settle into something that's normal. 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:43.120 Right. 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.319 They were all just lumpy and bumpy and just normal people, right? 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:47.439 We're not, yeah, yeah. 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:48.560 It's really a shame. 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:56.720 You know, with with even the obsession

with facial surgery, and I'm not saying no to any procedure, but the obsession. 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:57.439 Yeah. 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:58.720 That's that's a problem. 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:04.399 We spend too much of our real estate in our heads thinking about what's wrong with ourselves, thinking about it. 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:06.800 And then it becomes, yeah, you just keep going and going and going. 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:07.120 Yeah. 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:08.079 What were you gonna say, Laura? 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:14.879 Just we're gonna talk a lot today about hair and gray hair or silver hair, whatever um we're gonna call it. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:29.839 But I think also wrinkles is another thing that, you know, right up there with hair that is, you know, people are fighting the whole aging process and um yeah, the the idea what what we can do around exceptions. 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.240 But I think it's all tied together in this whole film. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.519 So let's let's since we've all been waiting for this, let's get into it a little bit. 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.240 This film has been praised as heartwarming and empowering. 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:43.839 You know, I was really moved in a way that I didn't anticipate. 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:54.079 You know, I was just gonna watch it so like be educated before I interviewed you, but it was really moving to me, but also educational because I didn't realize you were gonna do a lot of this historical piece. 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:55.199 So I learned a lot. 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.439 So why don't we just take turn it over to you? 00:07:57.439 --> 00:07:59.439 Tell us a little bit about the documentary. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:10.800 Well, I saw what was happening, which was basically with the pandemic, more and more women were forced to confront their great roots. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:15.519 And more and more women said, Hey, wait a minute, what are my priorities? 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.759 You know, we were in the pandemic, everybody's priorities took a big shift. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:30.879 And at the same time, it was more uh social media happening where people were spending more time on social media, and they were watching these influencers document their grow out. 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:51.120 And so the social media provided this visual roadmap, and so I saw this happening after my my own experience of being silvering for 20 years already and hearing from so many women about why they couldn't stop dyeing their hair and what their fears and anxieties were. 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.159 And I just saw this thing happen. 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:55.279 Do you remember that? 00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:00.399 I remember just watching these women with the hair going down, down the line, going down thing, like, what are they doing? 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:00.879 Yeah. 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:01.440 Right. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:13.759 And and what was fascinating to

me as I paid attention to it, was the hair was almost a gateway to other things that would happen to women psychologically. 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:17.759 They would get this new ownership, or or they would meet themselves. 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:19.519 It would, that's why it's your roots. 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.679 It would like they were coming home to whoever they were were. 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:29.759 And yeah, and then confronting like what had they been hiding and why. 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:48.320 And so I wanted the film to be joyful and I want it to be fun, and I knew it was gonna have a scrappy quality because I was using my phone for the most part, but I thought that's an advantage because we see so much that's very produced and very slick and very polished and very perfect. 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.919 So I wanted this to be the opposite, which was very real. 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.320 So where am I going with this? 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.480 I I love but to stop for that for a minute because I just love the whole concept of that. 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:02.159 That the point is, you know, we're looking at people who are all airbrushed now. 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:11.120 And so you're doing the opposite thing, you know, looking at people who aren't airbrushed with a technique that wasn't airbrushed, that wasn't, you know, super slick and professional. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:11.840 Perfect. 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.159 And I think it makes the women more relatable. 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:17.840 Everybody in the film is somebody you might know somewhere. 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:30.799 Um, the other part was that women who have uh chosen not to cover their gray have been judged really harshly over the years. 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:44.960 So I didn't want to flip the script and make women who choose to cover their gray with joy or or thinking about not covering their gray or are never gonna think about not covering their. 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:48.399 I didn't want those women to feel judged or intimidated. 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:49.840 At least can I ask you? 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:57.600 It was in your bio where you said you used the phrase cover your gray and versus dye your hair. 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.279 Those seem like they're subtle but very different. 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:02.559 Can you grab it? 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:02.960 Right. 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:08.720 So can you talk about a little bit of your your your wording of cover your gray, your choice to cover your gray? 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.840 Well, um, you can dye your hair as a mode of self-expression. 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:21.600 You could make it a fun color, you could add highlights, you could add low lights to you know, bring out dimension in your hair. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.279 But covering gray is a very specific thing. 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.559 And that's on some level hiding. 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:34.240 And on some level, for most women, it's not a comfortable, joyful process. 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:49.120 Where for many women, dyeing their hair is a joyful, colorful process where they can be more of who they really are, or they can change at a you know pivotal point in life, go blonde, go darker, just have some fun with it. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:56.240 But covering gray, I wanted to isolate that from the the big pool of I think you're the first person. 00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:08.000 I've never heard that distinction before, but it makes a lot of sense to me because I see a lot of women who've gone or let themselves go gray, but then they have, you know, pink and purple and things, but right, that's still dyeing your hair, but it's not covering the gray. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:09.600 They're expressing themselves. 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:23.120 And I think I came to this because in all of my years doing makeup, um, there was always a like in a commercial sense, this idea about covering our flaws, you know, fixing the problems. 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:25.440 And I never really approached it that way. 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:30.320 I wanted to, I didn't want to conceal, I wanted to reveal. 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.559 And sometimes the way you reveal it. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:34.000 There's our bumper sticker, Lori. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.440 We're always looking for bumper stickers when we're talking to people, but there it is. 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:37.919 Yeah. 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.919 So, you know, how can I reveal what's beautiful about someone? 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:52.399 And yeah, that might mean I soften some things that maybe they're not happy with, or I feel distract from their better features, but that's a reveal, it's not a conceal. 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:53.279 It's not a conceal. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:58.639 That mindset is one that I applied to the whole hair dye. 00:12:58.639 --> 00:12:59.519 I like that. 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:01.440 Can we go back to the film for a minute? 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.840 But you were starting to say something that I really appreciated when you were talking about this in several interviews. 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:11.679 I heard you say this about you were trying not to, for those of us like me, as nobody can see because we're not on video yet. 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:13.279 Hopefully, we're going to at some point. 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:18.960 But I've let the first quarter of my hair go my natural white, the rest I do cover. 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:26.000 Um, and so for people like me, I do often feel judgment from women who don't cover their grays. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:33.360 And some of that is, I think, internalized pressure myself, but some I do feel even a community where going gray is much more the norm here, the community I'm in. 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:38.240 And I do feel sometimes judged for the fact that I do choose to cover my grays. 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:43.039 So I appreciated in the film that came

through that there wasn't a judgment about this. 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:50.559 Yeah, I mean, there's too much judgment all the way around, and and that's not going to uplift us, you know. 00:13:50.559 --> 00:14:03.759 And I think that's part of the pro-aging idea to, you know, lift each other up because the constant judging and tearing one another down doesn't benefit anybody. 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.679 It's like the worst of a mean girl junior high sentiment. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:08.240 Right. 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.519 And that's what society was already doing to us about our hair, anyways. 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.039 We shouldn't be doing it to each other. 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:22.399 I mean, why do you think that society views a woman embracing her natural gray as a sort of a radical political act rather than just a cosmetic choice? 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.720 I mean, why should it have to be that way? 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.120 Well, it is, unfortunately. 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:29.759 And it is in a good way, you know. 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:32.320 Well, first, can I just say something about your hair? 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:34.159 It's beautiful. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:38.639 And I look at what you've done, and I see that as something intentional. 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:40.399 But very intentional. 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:48.879 My intention during COVID was to do what everybody else did, but this direction, I was gonna go back across my head instead of down, so I didn't have that big line. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.399 And then I ended up just stopping it at this point for now, but we'll see. 00:14:52.639 --> 00:15:00.240 But you've played with it, you've taken and made it more of what it already is by you know making the back a little darker. 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:01.279 So I think it's great. 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:02.159 Thank you. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:02.639 Thank you. 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:09.519 Yes, I think it's cool that it's just an option that people would allow themselves, you know, and whether it's play, I love consists. 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:10.639 I didn't know that about you. 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:15.759 I'm not gonna let it go from the roots down, I'm gonna go from back, and that's why I'm gonna let it go gray. 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.080 I mean, just you know, I always have to be a little different, so there. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:23.279 But I love that about you, and I think that just like that opens the door to the possibility for women. 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.120 It doesn't have to be one or the other. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:25.759 One or the other. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.559 No, people notice all the time and ask me about it. 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:33.919 You know, Elise, you mentioned in other interviews that the concept for your film was a little bit unusual. 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.200 It literally downloaded into your brain through a vision. 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.039 Can you tell

us a little bit? 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:40.960 So that's really the truth. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:47.279 I was it was about 65 years old, right about there, and I was having one of those nights where you just don't even sleep. 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:52.960 And uh I could tell the dawn was upon us because it was creeping in from the window. 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.720 And I really just sort of said to the universe, I need a project. 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.480 And uh it really hit me like like lightning. 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.559 And I felt something while I was half asleep that was visceral. 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.799 It was it was in my mouth, and I said, Okay, I'm getting a message. 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:09.759 What is it? 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:14.639 And uh they were little vintage baby blocks that spelled your roots are showing. 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:25.840 That's what I saw in my mind's eye, and it was so clear and so unnegotiable that I knew, okay, I'm making a documentary about this moment. 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.240 And I said to my husband, guess what? 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:29.440 I'm gonna make a documentary. 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:30.320 He's like, Okay, good. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.360 You think you were nuts? 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:32.879 Yes, of course. 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:40.159 But um, you know, he's used to me, you know, having these ideas that might, you know, take over my life for a few years. 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.480 And yeah, it was a bit obsessive, but I knew it was important and I knew I could do it. 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:45.919 I just had to figure out how. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:53.120 So it came out though fully formed like this just the idea to see and with this double entange about the roots and the whole thing was there. 00:16:53.519 --> 00:17:02.080 Oh, also, you know, the journey that women go on when they go through this process, they are coming home to their roots, they're getting rooted. 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.079 And a number of times in the process, people say, I don't know about that title. 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.880 I think you should go. 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.519 I was like, that is the title. 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:10.559 That is the title. 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.680 At least can I ask you? 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:21.759 Because I'm so interested in the whole spirituality thing, in terms of visions before or messages before, or have you seen the blocks before? 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.160 You know, I have never seen the blocks before. 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.119 But what have you seen? 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:31.680 Um I do keep my eyes open for uh signs and omens, and and I have had prophetic dreams. 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:47.440 Yes, um, you know, it's not a a big um everyday kind of thing, but I would say I'm pretty uh intuitive and um bit empathetic, you know. 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:48.000 Yeah. 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.000 So I think that's surely the case.

00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:58.319 I mean, I did for years, actually, you know, between the ages of 20 and 30, I did not have a television and you know, I didn't have the internet. 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:02.079 And so I spent a lot of years reading uh metaphysical books. 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:02.319 Yeah. 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.880 Everybody was in New York City at the time. 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:09.359 There was a store called Samuel Weiser, and it was all of that stuff. 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.359 And I would just go in there and wait for something to you know fall off the shelf, and I would get that, you know. 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.200 So there was that uh period of time where I kind of developed. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:19.759 Yeah. 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.839 You're speaking Lori's language now. 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.200 You are tell us a little bit about this. 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:41.039 You know, like if you were inclined to believe these things or live this way, you know, you wouldn't say it because you're a judge, you'd be written off as being a little less um you know so and oh, incredible. 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.039 And now, who cares? 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:44.000 Good. 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.079 I'm gonna I'm a good wish, you know. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.519 Maybe you're right. 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.440 Maybe I'm clearly in this case you were because it was prophetic. 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.519 So tell us a little bit to me. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.839 I mean, there were so many interesting parts about the film, but one of them was the history of all of this because I didn't know. 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:06.480 I mean, I thought I did know some of it, but I don't think many of us understand the history of this graveolution, uh, if that's what they're calling it. 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.319 So tell us a couple, just a couple factoids maybe about the history. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:15.759 Well, of the movement of um women embracing their hair or hair dye, which goes. 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.119 Hair dye, hair dye. 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.160 Well, you know, I had to research this because I didn't really know, but I thought, how do we get here? 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:22.640 Yeah. 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:30.799 You know, this is a big industry, but clearly women have been playing with their appearance in cosmetics since forever, the beginning of time. 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:37.680 And so, yes, the ancient Egyptians wanted their hair to be darker black because that was a status symbol. 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:44.880 You know, we've always used appearance to you know project certain things, status, whatnot. 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.599 So they used the blood of black animals, thinking that would make their hair dark. 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:54.880 Umward, you know, blondes were very desirable. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:07.920 And during the Roman Empire, the prostitutes were required to have blonde or golden

hair because it uh made them, you know, more desirable or alluring, but it also um made them identifiable. 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:21.759 So hair's always been a big identifier, and manipulating it one way or the other really does, you know, it's the first thing you see when someone walks in the room, kind of. 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:22.079 Yes. 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:24.960 And you're ever in a picture, you go, how's my hair? 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:25.359 You know? 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:26.480 Yeah, yeah, that's true. 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:26.799 You're right. 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.400 before something, you know? 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:31.920 Have you ever heard this? 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:41.279 I this was not in the film, but I read this someplace that in the 18th century women, I think men too, but women wore those big wigs to cover their grays when they got older. 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:57.039 And the the wigs were coated with lard to hold it in place, which attracted mice, so they would sleep with cages over their heads to protect these wigs, which I thought was crazy, but it's no crazier than us putting toxic chemicals on our head, right? 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:57.680 Oh, yeah. 00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.440 We also used mercury. 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.000 Um, they would lose lead. 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.960 Uh, it was just just awful. 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.640 And not that it's any better now. 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:14.799 You know, these chemicals that are in hair dye now and straighteners, and for women who do both, particularly women of color, it's a toxic brew. 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:24.240 And um I didn't want to hammer that because we all do toxic things, but you know, I thought it was important to look at it with a very broad brush. 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.480 The history of hair dye, the beauty industrial complex, where do we get our ideas? 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:37.119 Because I wanted the film to be about hair, but that's merely a portal to talk about. 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.319 The story. 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:38.720 Yeah. 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.920 How have the corporate beauty brands reacted to your message here? 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.480 Do you know? 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:46.880 Well, there are a number of beauty brands who are now, you know, it's follow the money. 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:58.079 There's a number of brands who've sprung up to address the needs of silver hair because gray hair does have different needs, and women want to take care of their hair. 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:00.960 So there's been a tremendous Tremendous shift. 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.839 As a matter of fact, L'Oreal, you would think, you know, the nemesis. 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:15.359 Um they have developed an entire educational program so that colorists can learn how to help women transition using gray. 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:16.160 Really? 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:21.680 Yeah, because for a lot of women, growing out a whole head of hair dye is not the end of the story. 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:28.880 A lot of women get to that place and maybe their hair is a little blah, you know, and maybe they want it to be a little different. 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.359 And so gray blending is the answer there. 00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.039 And so gray blending. 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.200 Tell them what is that exactly? 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.759 Well, let's say your hair is and you're growing it out. 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:41.519 Now you got this skunk stripe. 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:41.920 Yeah. 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.960 You don't want this harsh line of demarcation. 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:51.440 So a gray blending specialist will analyze the gray pattern that's there. 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:58.079 And using a whole host of techniques, depending on what they're dealing with, they'll add lowlights and highlights. 00:22:58.799 --> 00:22:58.960 Okay. 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.039 I want to do this so bad. 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.680 We we had an episode with Stephanie Odell, who I think you know, celebrate the gray. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.039 And she gave us the name of some woman who's famous, I guess, for gray blending. 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.319 And I'm trying to get in touch with her. 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:11.680 She's in California, unfortunately. 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.799 But if I have a trip out there, I may do a visit to her about this. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.279 Yes, that's that's uh Farah Hurdle. 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:18.559 Yes, yes. 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.839 She does gorgeous work, and she's a nice person. 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.839 And she's an educator now. 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:24.880 And you know what? 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.119 There's some of these gray blending artists that you see that are very theatrical. 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.119 Woman walks in one thing, she goes out, she looks like a movie star with silver hair. 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.200 Well, forget it, because they don't look that way in a month or two. 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:37.599 Right. 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.640 I was gonna say, then you just become a slave to doing that part of it too. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:43.440 Is that a thing? 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:50.480 Where your hair, like you let your hair go gray, and then you're not happy with the gray, so you end up doing tinkering with the gray. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:51.359 That's a thing too. 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:56.240 Well, yeah, it's not that you're not happy with it, but maybe you want to enhance it a little bit. 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:05.039 Maybe you just when my my hair first started growing out, and it wasn't really growing out from a whole dye thing, you know, I'd used a semi-permanent once or twice. 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:17.119 Anyway, so when enough gray had come in, my base color had lost some vibrancy because you know, we're losing the melanin all around, and so the whole head

might be a little blah. 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:21.599 And so at that point, I just got some low lights, meaning the opposite of highlights. 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:29.839 I just got these dark streaks that ran through the whole head, and that just you know brought it back to having some style and some pizzazz. 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:41.519 So gray blending is is wonderful, really, because it also um there's less dye on the scalp, so it minimizes some of the health risks. 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:46.079 I love yours because it's got the white and the gray, which I've never seen before. 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:47.839 It's got both mixed in. 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:49.039 And check this out. 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.079 I wish somebody oh my goodness, you're totally black underneath. 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:53.519 Yeah, it's all dark. 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:56.720 Sometimes when it's longer, I wear it up and I've got the whole two-tone. 00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.920 Is that normal? 00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.920 I mean, is that does that happen frequently? 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:09.440 As a matter of fact, who we were just discussing, Farah Hurdle, she likes to call it peep people's animal print because everybody's very individual. 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:11.839 What their patterns are another thing. 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:20.559 Women will see, maybe you know, they'll see their hairline if they grow it out a little bit and they go, well, it's not very attractive, or it's not, it's not flattering. 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:24.880 Well, they have no idea what the pattern is all over their head. 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:31.440 They might have some really fabulous streaks, or they might have like dark underneath, they might have a pattern, you know. 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:37.759 And the younger you are when you quit the dye, the more you can appreciate and enjoy those patterns. 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:38.640 Patterns. 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.920 They're called animal patterns. 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:40.480 I love this. 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:41.200 Animal patterns. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.599 Another thing to research, Lori, we got to figure out. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:43.839 Yeah. 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:45.680 So I know you love animals. 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:54.559 You know, of all the individual hair stories that you captured in the film, was there one that really moved you or surprised you or just stuck, stuck with you? 00:25:54.880 --> 00:26:00.559 There are so many, and and we had to, you know, edit 18 hours of video. 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:00.880 Wow. 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.079 So people gave me a very long life story. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.920 And I think the woman, there was two. 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:21.519 The woman, she's sitting on her bed and she's kind of full figured, and she just talked about she was dying her hair from the time she was a teenager, and at the same time, she was getting a curvy body, and it was just so awful for her. 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.839 And it was just so awful. 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:33.119 Uh, you know, by the time she quit dyeing her hair in her 30s, very much because her husband helped uh encourage her, which is great. 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:40.319 Yeah, she stopped wearing all the baggy clothes and she was able to embrace her body, and that's very powerful. 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.920 So she was very, you know, that that that really got me. 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:51.440 And then the other woman who opens the film and closes it, she's another young woman dyeing her hair from the time she was in middle school. 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:57.279 She just follows through her whole life, and it was just heartbreaking, truly. 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:03.039 You know, what her mother was that's the woman who took whose mother took her, right, when she was 14 to the oh that one. 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.319 And so then, you know, she goes off to university and her mother can't dye her hair anymore. 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:09.839 She can't afford it. 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:18.000 So she volunteers as a model, you know, at hair salons, and she has to go in there and let them do her hair however they want. 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:24.640 So she had every color in the rainbow because they're learning on her, and it destroys her hair. 00:27:24.640 --> 00:28:01.759 And then she has her first child, and then you know, she's got to deal with the roots, and her mother would travel up to dye her hair, and she's got a kid, and then she got a second kid who had some issues with his hearing, and so she had these health concerns, and then comes COVID, and she was working in a grocery store during COVID, really like stressing out about her kids and COVID and working in the public, you know, and for her, all of a sudden, all these other things finally trunked the need to cover her. 00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:02.240 Great. 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:08.240 And the shocking thing, because she's blonde anyway, the shocking thing was nobody cared. 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:09.839 Nobody looked at her. 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.319 I mean, what she had spent her whole life. 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:18.160 Yeah, agonizing about how crazy that it took all of that, right, to get her to that place. 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:29.279 I mean, that did actually, that was one of the parts where I think I was moved to tears when she was just talking about how when her mom took her for the hair appointment when she was 14 and she was so anxious about other people seeing her. 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:34.079 And I thought, this is like we we we've lost the we've lost the point here. 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:43.440 And you know that other thing, I don't know if you remember, she's sitting there, and a girl in the other chair is given a really stern warning who wants to dye her hair black. 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.720 No, you don't want to do this. 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.039 But nobody had that conversation

with her with her. 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:54.000 Covering the grays was she had to not only acceptable, but yes, but what had to be had had to happen. 00:28:54.640 --> 00:29:00.240 Can I ask you how how are we oh I was just gonna ask, how are how can people watch the the movie? 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:08.799 The easiest way to find the film is your rootsar showingfilm.com, which we will have in the show notes for sure. 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:09.359 Great. 00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:11.759 That is the easiest way to find it. 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:28.799 But there's another another place that I'm gonna put in the film in the show notes as well that Stephanie, who we've already just talked about, Odell, that we interviewed, is scheduled to be a co-panelist with you and Jackie Getz, who was another one of our interview guests, for an on-demand screening of the documentary. 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.200 And there'll be a subsequent QA session. 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.400 This is through Sanctuary. 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.039 So people who don't know that it's an online magazine all about empowering, you know, inspiring women. 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.079 So that's going to be going on for like the month of September, right? 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:41.279 I think into October. 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:44.400 I will tell you, it starts uh September 12th. 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.400 And what's particularly nice about that offering is two things. 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.799 One, you can watch it at your own time. 00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:51.359 Okay. 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.039 There's a three-week window. 00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:03.440 It's the same price as if you go to my website, but the first 20 people to buy tickets are actually going to get a gift from Hair Story, which is a fabulous hair brand. 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.640 They're going to get their startup kit, which is worth $69. 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:13.119 And then you have this Zoom panel conversation that'll be October 14th. 00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:14.960 And there's some terrific panelists. 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.640 Oh, these powerhouse women. 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:16.960 Yeah. 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:30.960 You know, Jackie Getz, the deep style, and Farrah Hurdle, the gray blinding artist, and Stephanie Odell, and myself, and a psychologist, because this is this is a psychological issue. 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:31.359 Yes. 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:32.240 All right. 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.920 I'm signing up as soon as we as soon as we're off of here because I want to be one of the first 20. 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:44.960 So you know, I feel like did I recognize, I'm pretty sure I recognize some of the women in the documentary as models from Stephanie's Celebrate the Gray. 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:46.400 Could there have been some crossover? 00:30:46.720 --> 00:31:07.039 Yes, you know, it's kind of uh the movement has certain players in it, you know, and the women that are in the film uh

that kind of work with Stephanie came to me versus because I was all over the internet and I was looking at influencers and content creators to see who I liked, see who I could invite to be involved. 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:08.799 And so there are a few of them. 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:09.279 That's great. 00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:13.519 I was like, I'm pretty sure I'd recognize them because I'd just been looking at Stephanie's site and I thought so. 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.920 So yeah, I mean, what's the energy like in the rooms? 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:20.400 They've been having all these independent film festivals and screenings at community centers. 00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.599 I mean, is it great? 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:23.359 It's terrific, let me tell you. 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:36.000 And um, when people are in the room and watch it together, there is an alchemy because there is something, there are many topics that we hit on that a lot of people relate to and didn't even know. 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:48.400 Like, wow, you know, how our mothers influence the way we feel about ourselves and about what we think is beautiful and what was wrong with us or what needed fixing, you know, and whether we're gonna dye our hair or not. 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.319 I think our mothers are very involved in that. 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:50.640 Yeah. 00:31:50.960 --> 00:32:00.079 A lot of mothers who might be of a certain age who are dyeing their hair, the last thing they want is their daughter to be gray and they're got some other color. 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:01.279 Um, and you know what? 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:02.960 I didn't answer this question. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.000 What makes not dyeing your gray hair political? 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:17.200 It is a statement against a patriarchal society that is male-dominated, which is the definition of patriarchy. 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:19.759 Um it's we understand what you mean. 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:20.400 Absolutely. 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:32.960 I remember my father would not allow my mother that my parents were divorced many years ago, he would not allow her to come down if she didn't have her hair all, you know, always dyed, but but done, coiffed, you know, couldn't come down even for breakfast. 00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.799 He wouldn't allow her to have breakfast. 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:45.759 Yeah, that's kind of just my father who I love very much, who's passed away recently, but that was one of the that was part of the patriarchy, and he it was just the norm again. 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:46.640 So yeah. 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:50.480 Yeah, and it's it's also a pushback against an age of society. 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:56.400 Yes, yes, you know, we're saying, no, you know, we're getting older and we're gonna be good with that. 00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.759 And what's wrong with that, right? 00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:07.519 I mean, I feel like we talk about that a lot on this podcast, which is yeah,

we do all these things to avoid getting older or to pretend we're not getting older when we should be saying, like, what's so wrong with getting older? 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:08.000 Right? 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.519 It's a good thing, it's a blessing. 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.200 What about the disconnect? 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.279 Yeah, you know, there they would be. 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:18.720 I sometimes think, what would it be like if you didn't see yourself in a mirror for decades? 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.880 And then one day you saw yourself. 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:21.759 The shock. 00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:27.599 Well, in a way, not watching your hair transition through life sets up a weird disconnect. 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:33.759 Not only do you not know what you look like, so many women have no idea what color their hair actually is. 00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:34.319 Wow. 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.119 Strange for me and a little disconcerting. 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.400 But then it becomes the disconnect in our appearance. 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:51.920 If we do all these patchwork things to make ourselves look younger, younger than who, but younger, then at some point it just looks like the puzzle pieces don't fit. 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:52.559 Don't fit. 00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.799 I think I've heard you say that about facelips. 00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.799 And when you said it, I thought that's exactly right. 00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:57.759 I don't have any problem. 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.799 I have many friends who've had them, and it's fine if that's what you want to do. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:05.680 But I've thought about it when I look at people, I think there's something I can't put my finger on. 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:06.559 That's that's what it was. 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.000 It's a disconnect because they don't look like the age that I know they are, and there's this weird disconnect. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:15.119 They don't look bad necessarily, but they don't look their age. 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.280 But why do we aspire to that? 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:18.000 Why? 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.119 You know, and some of it's a very patriarchy again. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:26.880 You know, I often say, you know, I separate eyelashes for a living, and so I do look at it closely. 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:36.400 And if I see a face that is just so taut, and then I see a neck that's crinkled, I I go And the hands, the hands are always a giveaway too. 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.559 You know, like where do we where do we draw these lines? 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:50.000 I mean, and there's a big buffet of options, and some of them are good and fun and doable, and maybe they make us feel good, but then you know, why? 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:50.800 But why? 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.440 And which ones and how often and why? 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.320 Oh, it's a sort of sort of thing. 00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.400 It becomes a slippery slope, right? 00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:59.440 And we can't stop death, which is what I mean. 00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.760 I know that's what it's about for me a lot of the times. 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.840 It's like trying to think I can be the one to avoid the end, but but you can't. 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:17.760 So, you know, what is your advice to somebody, you know, f like me, who wants to ditch the die, but you know, I'm going really slow here because I'm terrified of the things you said, even though I'd like them not to be true. 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.800 I know society will make me invisible. 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:24.079 I know that the patriarchy will make me less relevant. 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:28.159 I all those things will happen when I do ditch the die completely. 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:29.119 So, what's your advice? 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.239 It's a movement. 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:35.199 This is a movement, and the more women do it, the more, you know, what was her name? 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.239 Diana Vreeland, very famous Vogue editor. 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.039 She had this phrase, the eye has to travel. 00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.599 And that means we need to look at something long enough to normalize it. 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.079 I mean, think about the first time we saw skinny jeans. 00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:49.679 Oh, weird, terrible, da-da-da. 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.440 Wears them. 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:55.519 And then come wide leg, oh, weird, terrible, you know, oh, they're great. 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.400 We have to get used to the the look of things. 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:04.400 So the more women, particularly, I might add you, Constance, very attractive women, do it. 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.360 We change the we change the narrative. 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.079 And the more younger women do it, the more we see it. 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:14.239 We can see it for what it is, which And I think a lot of younger women are doing that now. 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.840 And I'm really proud of you know my daughter and and their generation, because I do think they're saying that. 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.360 Look, we're gonna be the ones to really do this in a big group. 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:29.039 So they can't there can't be this kind of discrimination when it's a whole group of people doing it like this. 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.960 Yeah, and then we can you know take away the associations. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.480 Gray equals very old and decrepit. 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:36.719 Right. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.559 Well, it doesn't at all. 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:44.159 What if it just meant just a reasonable level of maturity, which starts in our teens? 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:44.800 Correct. 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:45.519 And wisdom. 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.519 I mean, and there was a time when that was true. 00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:57.039 When we talked to my mom

about this, you know, she's able to say, you know, when when we all started going gray, I mean, she went very early, which is why she dyed it, and my dad, as I said, required it. 00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:01.599 But when she reached the age and all her friends were going gray, they all just went gray. 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:02.880 It wasn't really a thing. 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:08.239 People didn't dye their hair, they went gray, and all women in their 60s were gray. 00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.159 And it was just the way it was. 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:14.000 And so it wasn't, there wasn't enough as much stigma, I think, about it. 00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:19.039 One of the things that really bugs me, and I know you've talked about this, but is about the double standard, right? 00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:26.000 So men with gray hair are what silver foxes, distinguished, all the different words they say to the George Clooneys of the world, right? 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:32.719 What did your research into this history of hair dye reveal about like how deeply ingrained is that double standard? 00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.559 Well, it's very deeply ingrained. 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:35.760 I think everybody knows it. 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:49.599 And if you really you look right in the the below the surface, what it's about is it's by forcing women to look young forever and making that the ideal, it disempowers women. 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:58.079 And the men who can mature, be distinguished in silver foxes and and all of that, they stay in positions of power. 00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.559 And if we're just young and cute, well, that's all we are. 00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:05.280 Well, there it is, just layered in for us. 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:14.159 Yeah, that's why I end the film with that glorious dinner quote because she knew it, you know. 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:17.679 Women really should be running things, yeah. 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:20.639 And then we'd all be gray, right? 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:21.760 And be very happy. 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:32.320 We'll be you know, we'll be it will be a better balance, you know, more things will be taken care of if women are in those seats of power. 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:37.599 Well, here's hoping, and maybe that's a nice place, Lori, to come in for a landing. 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.079 Can you believe this that I'm saying? 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.679 But that just seemed like such a perfect place to pull things together. 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:50.800 But before we end, I tried this alone, Lori, the last episode when we weren't on there, but I'm gonna try it again because I kind of liked it. 00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:52.880 This is I saw this on another podcast. 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.440 Okay, I have quick, like maybe three. 00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:59.199 Three quick, these are quick, not long inches, rapid fire questions for you. 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.519 Just answer in like one or two words, right? 00:39:01.519

--> 00:39:02.159 Okay. 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.960 If you could have dinner with any historic feminists, who would it be? 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.000 Oh, it would be back to Gloria Steinem. 00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:11.599 Me too. 00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:12.719 How do we do that? 00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:13.440 Can we do it? 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:14.079 I don't know. 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:14.719 I want to do it. 00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:17.360 I've done her makeup, you know, so I would like to see her again. 00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:17.840 Wow. 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:18.480 Oh, that's right. 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:19.039 I knew that. 00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:19.440 Okay. 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:25.440 Maybe she'll hear this and she'll want to have dinner with us because I would love to have dinner with her. 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:26.480 Let's see. 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:28.639 I've got a whole bunch of these, so I can only get three though. 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:33.280 Um, what is the number one myth about gray hair that you want to bust? 00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:35.679 That is old and ugly. 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:36.719 Good one. 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:38.400 Here, here, here, here. 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:49.199 All right, we're gonna end with this will be a lowball one, but this is because I want to really get people to be watching this film because I think it's important and moving and interesting and educational and all those things. 00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:53.599 So describe your film's ultimate message in three words. 00:39:53.599 --> 00:40:01.039 Informative, uplifting, empowering. 00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:04.079 I would absolutely agree with all those. 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:05.119 That moving. 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.000 I would add moving too, because I was very moved. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:08.559 Thank you. 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.280 I cannot thank you enough for being with us today, Elise. 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.119 Oh, it's so good to be here. 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.079 This was great. 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:17.440 I'm getting off to sign up right now for the documentary viewing. 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:19.840 You're gonna love those hair care products. 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:21.280 Oh, that sounds perfect. 00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.599 Okay, and please stay in touch with us. 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:24.480 I will. 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:24.880 All right. 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:25.360 Thank you. 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:25.840 Good luck. 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:26.320 Thank you. 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:27.199 Take care. 00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:28.559 Bye-bye. 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:32.639 Hi, WADY listeners. 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:33.760 Thanks for staying with us. 00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.199 Um, we're just gonna take a quick conversation, a quick walk around the block. 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:43.280 Um, I just actually got back from a long trip, but I'm a little jet lagged, and um, so I don't have a ton of energy um to bring it up. 00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:46.800 Like I said, she just flew in from Switzerland and her arms are really tired. 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.760 That was like a dad joke that my dad used to say out. 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.039 That is a dad joke. 00:40:51.280 --> 00:41:08.000 But I do wanna I do think, you know, like all of you, we Constance and I both have been thinking about our hair and our own hair journeys, and um this certainly is um evoking lots of feelings, this whole concept of whether we should cover our gray hair. 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.599 I love that distinction. 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:16.559 That is really good distinction because my thought always was if I do go totally white, I am gonna be one of the old ladies. 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:22.719 I want to do like pink and purple and things like that, because I like my hair has always been a self-expression place for me. 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:28.559 And I don't I felt like when I went gray or white for me, it would be the end of that, but it doesn't have to be. 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:30.320 Yeah. 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:37.920 You know, I I am actually more attached to the volume of my hair than the color of my hair. 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:39.199 I want to shout out uh. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.079 What do you mean? 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.239 Um say that I mean by the volume. 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:51.599 I mean, I've been let I've been letting my hair go gray now, I want to say, for probably I'm 65, at least for maybe 10 years. 00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:51.840 Okay. 00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.199 And this is all brought on. 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:59.920 I want to just shout out my friend Mary Beth, who who started this movement when we were pretty we were young women. 00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:06.480 Um, but the idea she ended up becoming a um uh like a model for older women. 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:09.760 She's beautiful, so um but she let her hair grow curly. 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:14.719 She she wasn't with Stephanie, she did this years ago when she probably started when she was 50. 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:27.840 But um, so I've always also been attached to my hair, but mostly because it was like very big and curly, and it was something noticeable about me. 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:36.480 Um over time my hair has gotten thinner, and it doesn't stick out as far, you know, from my head. 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:37.599 And that's it. 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.599 I just always assumed you cut it that way. 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.760 I didn't realize it did that on its own. 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.360 No, it it's do it it's it's doing it on its own. 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:51.440 And I realize that what's it you know, I mean I'm very attached to the size of my hair more than the color. 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:56.719 So honestly, this conversation is a little like it hasn't been painful for me to let my hair go gray. 00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:57.039 Uh-huh. 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:03.760 Um, and

over ten years, you know, it's still kind of taking its time, but it's clearly not it's clearly not dark anymore. 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:09.199 Um, but not fully gray, but it's more the volume of my hair that's there anything they can do. 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.480 I mean, I don't know, my hair's got too much volume, so I've never looked into this, but isn't there something they can do to create volume? 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.519 There's all kinds of shampoos I always see that create volume. 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.320 I think there's like meds you can take and vitamins you can take. 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:22.159 That you wouldn't want to do, but I meant yeah. 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:23.039 Not shampoo. 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:27.199 I I they see these volumizing shampoos everywhere they talk about doesn't work. 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:27.920 Not really. 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:28.400 Not really. 00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:29.039 Okay. 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.360 Um well then that's another acceptance piece. 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.800 Maybe we need to have somebody on talking about the volume of hair to talk about that. 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.119 If that's no, I just think our hair is our hair's changing in lots of ways. 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.840 This right, besides just being um the color, which is sort of the first thing. 00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.519 Well, I would say mine also mine hasn't changed in volume, to be honest. 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.239 It's still too voluminous, and I'm always fighting with that. 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.039 But what has changed is the texture. 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:58.800 I my hair was always very um, you know, it once I if I blow dried it, it was very silky and smooth. 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.880 If I did blow dry it, it was Wavy but not kinky. 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:14.400 But now I've gotten you know the white part of my hair is very kinky, which and I have to like use stuff to blast it down to my head because otherwise it's sticking up like a crazy person all over the place. 00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:19.599 So I think, yeah, I mean all kinds of things happen when you get older that you don't know is gonna happen. 00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:30.400 I just found a big white hair, not pubic, don't think I'm gonna say that again, which I always bring up, but I found a big white hair under my chin the other day, and I thought, for God's sake, how long has that been there? 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.760 Why isn't Neil or one of my friends said something about it? 00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:37.039 It was really long, so it couldn't have been just from two days ago or something. 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:38.480 And nobody said anything. 00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:40.880 I had this big long white hair under my chin. 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.679 Is that gonna be the new version of spinach in your teeth? 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.239 Your good friends tell you when you have a long hair growing up. 00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:52.719 I actually had an agreement with my daughter when they lived at home about this, but they're not here anymore, so they don't do it for me. 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:58.559 But I think we should all do that for each other, because who wants to walk around with a big white hair under I mean, maybe that's another thing. 00:44:58.559 --> 00:44:59.440 We just have to accept. 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.639 Like, okay, who cares if there was a big white hair under my chin? 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:05.199 But I'm not ready for that acceptance yet, I don't think. 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:07.840 That just seems like I'm not sure our daughters want a piece of that either. 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:10.000 I mean, I would I remember that with my mom. 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.480 I I didn't love being being in charge of that. 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:14.320 Being in charge of plucking her hair. 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:18.000 No, I loved her in many ways, but that I didn't that was not one. 00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:23.760 I my my mom never asked me to do that, but I did have to cut my dad's toenails, and I was not a big fan of that, I have to say. 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:24.800 But I did it. 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:25.360 Wow. 00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:27.119 That was a lovely thing to do. 00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:42.000 So but I think this hair thing, as she said, and as we've said before, it's emblematic of so many other pieces, as you even brought up in this one, like we've got wrinkles, our boobs are traveling south, our you know, hair is getting kinky and less volume. 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.880 It's just about you know acceptance. 00:45:44.880 --> 00:46:00.000 Yeah, it all goes lead back to acceptance, I think, and finding your way there some more quickly than others, and some taking our pokey time to get there, but hopefully we're all just working on it at least, thinking about it, talking about it. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:12.960 And maybe if we can find just i accepting that it's changing, but also a place of like comfort and even maybe joy wherever it is we are. 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:25.679 I mean, I think of our interview with Jackie, um Jackie Getz, who talks about, you know, she she uses clothes as a metaphor for, you know, so many things about growth and evolving and loss and everything. 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:35.519 But the idea that um I mean we accept, but even maybe embrace this is what what is beauty now. 00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:36.079 I know. 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:39.519 You know, not just oh, it's not what it used to be. 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:41.840 But like that is so hard for me. 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.800 But it's one it's something I try to do almost daily basis. 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:54.800 Like I'll look at other people who are older and have accepted that because they're wrinkled and gray, whatever, and I think I think they're beautiful, but I don't think that when I look at myself. 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:56.800 I d I just it's hard.

00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:03.440 So I am learning to do that, but it is not an easy process, I don't think, and society is certainly not helpful to us. 00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:07.599 Although hopefully things that she said are changing in our daughter's generations. 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.480 It's only like our physical parents. 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.639 If I can just say I was just on this really lucky, beautiful hiking trip. 00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:19.440 And um, yeah, at 65 I can't I can't do what I've done. 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:19.920 Right. 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.239 Um, and I still want to do. 00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:30.719 And in my mind there was a lot of feelings around why can't you do as much as you you know you think you should do. 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.320 So these self-critical thoughts about that you should be able to do more. 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:34.719 Right. 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:36.880 So maybe we can say, I don't care about my gray hair. 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:43.840 Look at I'm I'm easy breezy about aging, but you know, but when I couldn't get up the big hill, I was there's nothing easy breezy about me. 00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:45.119 Or or my thoughts. 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:55.679 We each have all different battles to, you know, but but hopefully you're right, on some of the grounds, some of the fronts, we're doing better than others, and maybe it's about giving ourselves some grace too about the places we're not doing so well. 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:01.840 I mean, we're about to leave on a big biking trip, and I think I'm on the verge of saying I'm gonna do the e-bike. 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:08.559 Because I'm looking and I'm thinking, right now I don't I've had some setbacks physically and you know, medical stuff going on. 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:14.320 I thought I don't think I can do this in a joyous way, the way I want to do it on a regular bike. 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:18.320 So I'm gonna make that decision, and yeah, part of me feels like a weenie. 00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:21.360 And why, but then I think, yeah, why should I? 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.199 Who am I comparing myself against who? 00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:23.679 Right? 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.079 Right. 00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:34.400 But I I did think about what you said, and I was thinking more about which way is gonna bring me more joy right now, not where I want to be, but right now, and I thought I think the e-bike's gonna bring me more joy at the moment. 00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:39.199 So I think I'm gonna do it, and I'm pretty psyched about having come to that decision, you know. 00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:40.559 That's a big deal. 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:47.440 I know, you know, letting yourself do something easier without it having to mean a whole bunch of things. 00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.000 Yes around decline and y opening the door to death and all that stuff. 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:57.840 But that's gotta be part of it because I'm thinking now

as you said this, if I had been younger, I would have made that decision in a second. 00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:05.519 If I had been 40 and had a bunch of medical setbacks going on and going on this trip and I had to decide, I absolutely would have said, Oh yeah, I'm going on an e-bike. 00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:09.440 Not that they had e-bikes then, but I would have said that because it didn't mean the same. 00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:11.360 I didn't realize it till you just said that. 00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:13.119 It didn't mean the same thing to me. 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:17.920 Then it would have been like, okay, it's a temporary thing because I have some stuff going on and I will go back to my norm. 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.079 This feels to me like a slippery slope. 00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:21.679 Like if I do this, that's it. 00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.880 The rest is gonna start going downhill too if I give into this. 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:26.400 That was oh, thank you. 00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:35.920 That was a big Well that kind of relates to remember a while ago I tripped and fell in a restaurant with my son, and I said, like, oh my god, I'm I'm getting so old, what's wrong with me? 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.679 And he's like, Mom, I fall. 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:44.719 People fall, you know, and it's like, oh, I'm just assuming because it's happening now, I'm in, you know, the slippery slope of decline. 00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:48.639 And actually, it's just my foot was caught on the syrup on the floor of the pancake house. 00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:49.599 Yep, yep. 00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:51.679 So it is yeah, it's a tricky time. 00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:52.400 This is tricky. 00:49:52.400 --> 00:50:03.199 This is why we have the podcast to talk about these things, but trick balance accepting the things that are about aging and dealing with them, but not attributing everything to aging because it isn't all about that. 00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:08.079 It's yeah, it is a tricky time, and I think I have a feeling it just gets trickier. 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.719 You know, it's not like then it's we're gonna coast. 00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:14.239 So, like we're just we're just putting on our training, our tricky training wheels. 00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:15.440 Oh boy. 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.119 Thanks, Lloyd, for ending with that hi, hi note. 00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.519 All right, take it easy. 00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:23.280 WADY listeners, thanks for going to the show. 00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:26.480 All right, take care everyone. 00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:27.599 All right, bye, WADY. 00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:31.519 You've been listening to We Ain't Dead Yet. 00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:33.199 Thanks for spending your time with us. 00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:36.719 If you're enjoying the show, please follow us and share with your friends. 00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:39.440 And remember, you're not alone in this next chapter. 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.199 We're all right here with you. 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:43.679 And we ain't dead yet.

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