Полная расшифровка выпуска The Perfect Pizza with Maurizio Leo

Um, but as I learned bread and fermentation, I realized that, you know, the dough in pizza is its own, it's its own food that requires the same care as bread does. 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:07.040 Um, and then it requires kind of a chef component on top at the end for for toppings. 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:08.079 Yes. 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:16.720 I do find that very interesting about pizza because with bread, I can just, I'm not a person that does a lot of inclusion. 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:23.519 So for me, it's just flour, water, salt, maybe a different blend of flour, but I don't have to think about any other part of it. 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.920 That's for the customer to figure out when they get home. 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.279 Make it a avocado toast, turn it into a sandwich. 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:30.800 I don't know, do whatever you like. 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.000 But for pizza, that's only half of the equation. 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.000 You still have to put the toppings on it. 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:37.199 That's right. 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:41.040 So that's a little bit more complex for sure. 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:58.560 Yeah, and I I think I think that was a little bit of the intimidating part of it for me was you know, I I love formulating doughs and fermentation schedules and you know, eking out as much flavor just from the inherent simple ingredients that go into bread. 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:07.920 Um and ultimately, as I was writing the book over the course of a couple years, I realized that is what my passion is, is really the dough formulation. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:16.160 And so the book really leans more towards that than um, you know, sauteing greens and learn, you know, that kind of stuff. 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:24.160 There are a lot of topping recipes in the book, and there's a lot of techniques for using certain things and reusing things topping-wise. 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:30.399 Um, but the book really leans towards dough and and kind of the fermentation side of it. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:32.720 Yes, I completely agree. 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:36.720 And were any of your toppings? 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:41.040 This is a conversation that I've been having with many of the people who have come on the podcast. 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:43.839 So I'd love to hear what you have to say about this. 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.680 Are your toppings inspired by those childhood memories? 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:57.199 Like were you trying to recreate a feeling or a smell or a texture when you were creating, I guess, the dough, but also the toppings? 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:59.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:19.279 I I think um part of the inspiration for the book was not only eating the pizza at my dad's restaurant, but yeah, also a lifetime of just being a pizza enthusiast, like going to Italy all the time to visit family, having all sorts of different styles of pizza there throughout Italy. 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:26.160 Um, throughout the U.S., I mean I've been to phenomenal pizzarias here, um, like Lovely's 5050 is fantastic. 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:28.319 Oh, I just chatted with her yesterday. 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.079 She, yeah, Sarah's great. 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:36.800 I mean, there's just so many pizzarias that I've eaten at, and that they all kind of stick with you a little bit in your head, right? 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:39.680 The topping combinations, or oh, that you know, an egg on top. 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.000 I remember having that so long ago. 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:48.959 Um, and it sounds weird, but when you have it, you're just like, wow, the yolk like really comes to brings the pizza together. 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:56.079 Um, yeah, so I mean, there were definitely these toppings that I had in mind. 00:07:56.319 --> 00:08:02.800 I have to say that I tend to top a little bit lighter than than others, maybe. 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:09.040 Um, again, it goes back to me really trying to highlight the the crust and the dough. 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:22.560 But but also I feel like the reality is when people get a pizza book, they're maybe they're gonna get some inspiration from the toppings, but they're just gonna use what what they have, what's in season, what's in the fridge or the pantry. 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:24.800 So yes, I agree with you. 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:32.639 Our pizza nights tend to be a bit of a empty the fridge situation, some interesting combinations. 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:34.399 And you come up with cool stuff, right? 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:35.120 Yeah, for sure. 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.360 Some new combos that you might not have tried. 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.360 Yeah, especially when you have kids who are like, we're gonna put what on the tree, let's go. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:49.759 Okay, so in the book, you say that to make great pizza, you have to think somewhat like a bread baker. 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:58.320 So after going this deep into pizza, what has pizza taught you that your bread formulations didn't? 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.639 How did you have to shift your mindset? 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:02.799 Because they're ultimately different goals. 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:04.080 Yes. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:05.519 Um, great question. 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:10.399 I so I started writing the book thinking that they were the same food. 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:22.000 And I had some pretty, I've had some pretty heated conversations with bakers, non-bakers, food people about, you know, which way do these things align or are they completely different? 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:29.600 And as I started making, and I've made pizza for a long, long time, almost as long as I've been making bread, and I've certainly eaten it for longer. 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:45.759 Um, but I think, you know, I think in the end, because of the nature of pizza and how it has to carry toppings, not not all pizza, not all styles of

pizza have toppings, but yeah, for the majority they do. 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:52.480 So you you have to really take into consideration the strength of it, what's the texture of the crust that you're going for. 00:09:52.879 --> 00:10:07.679 Um, and so I I think it requires you to have that baker's mentality in that you need to be able to observe the dough, prepare it, you know, pay attention to how fermentation is going. 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:19.519 Um, but then at some point I feel like you have to deviate from the baker's mindset and you have to kind of take on the pizza maker mindset, which is um, okay, the dough is at a good good spot. 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:23.120 Now I need to think about how to finish the timing for for baking. 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.799 The pizza baking process is completely different in the end. 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:34.240 Um and then I have to have the toppings need to be balanced, you know, in terms of flavors, salinity, all of the thing, texture. 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:40.480 Um, and so that I feel like is the chef component or the the pizza maker's component that kind of comes in. 00:10:40.720 --> 00:11:02.159 Um but I I do really firmly believe that if you can think like a baker, and we can kind of get into what that means, but if you can have some of those baker sensibilities when you're preparing the dough, then I think you can make an amazing pizza even if the toppings, let's say, aren't exactly balanced. 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:02.879 You know what I mean? 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:07.519 If you have that foundation, that dough foundation, the pizza's gonna be great in the end. 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:10.480 You said a few really interesting things here. 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:16.320 First, the first one was that you've had some heated conversations with other people about this. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:19.120 And I think that people really like rules. 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:29.039 I think people like to put things in boxes, like this is pizza, this is bread, this is champagne, this is sparkling wine, right? 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:32.080 We need those kinds of rules around things. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:44.399 But there's a lot of rule breaking that happens in the bread world, especially now that we have all of tons of people baking, cottage bakers who never learned the rules, so they don't really know that they're breaking them. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:52.879 And you also said that you need to observe the dough and to think like a baker. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:54.879 What do you mean, think like a baker? 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:56.399 What does that mean to you? 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:01.679 So before I get into it, I'll I want to just say this really quick story. 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.279 So I was doing some research, some pizza research in Italy. 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.679 I was going to pizzeria's and bakeries. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:08.639 What a hard job. 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:09.200 Oh my god. 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:10.799 It was tough. 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:16.480 My my friend Matt Um Rodbard from Taste, he was kind of my my co-pilot on that. 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:17.120 Amazing. 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:20.879 And he he arranged a few spots that would have been hard to get into. 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:26.399 So we went to this famous bakery, and I'm not, I'm not gonna name, I'm not gonna name the name. 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:31.679 I mean, by famous, I mean like a hundred years, you know, or longer in Italy. 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:42.720 And in this broken Italian, we were talking with the owner, and he he basically said, you know, I asked him, Do you think pizza and bread are the same kind of food? 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:45.120 Or do you think pizza makers and bakers are the same? 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:56.159 And you know, cold face, you know, he was like, you know, they're absolutely not the same because a baker has to come in, they have to make 20 different things. 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:56.720 Yes. 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.879 A pizza maker has to come in and they're just making that one the one style of pizza. 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:01.519 That's it. 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:02.399 Yeah. 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:04.000 And I that's interesting. 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:17.200 Yeah, and so that that really stuck with me because it told me that you know, as you're approaching this dough, you you can come in without knowing, you don't have to be a baker to be a pizza maker. 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:19.360 Like I don't think that's necessarily true. 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:28.960 But if you have a baker's mindset in that you know how to test the dough's hydration or, you know, and sourdough, all my stuff is sourdough. 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:44.559 So if you know how to manage your sourdough starter and make a LeBan properly, then you can use those baker's sensibilities to make sure that your dough is at the right stage at the right time, has the right strength to carry certain ingredients. 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:48.480 And ultimately, I think the most important thing is fermentation in the end. 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:49.039 Right. 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:54.159 Um, and being able to manage fermentation properly is paramount for making pizza. 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:04.399 I think managing fermentation is the most important part of any bread or pizza making job experience. 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:09.840 And I think it can only be achieved with many reps. 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:15.600 I feel like I'm just now six years later really starting to understand fermentation. 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.720 Like, oh, what happens when I add this much whole wheat? 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.080 How does it impact the fermentation? 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.519 Oh, if I heat it up a little bit, how does it impact the fermentation? 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:31.759 Like that is pretty much the foundation for any bread baking, any pizza making. 00:14:31.919 -->

00:14:45.360 And um I don't know if it gets chit-chatted about as much as mixing and hydration and all these other things, but really at the end of the day, it's all about fermentation. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:49.519 If you don't have good fermentation, your bread is just not going to be great. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.360 Like in the end, that is the thing that transforms the ingredients. 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:53.840 Yeah. 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:55.440 That's very true. 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:03.039 And also, one other thing that just popped into my mind of the difference between bread baking and pizza. 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:08.320 When you're making a pizza dough, you want it to stretch and not go back. 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:15.440 And when you're making bread, I would be horrified if it stretched and didn't go back. 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:22.799 So it you the difference between goals of extensibility and elasticity are different when you're working with pizza. 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:33.360 And so I would think that that might be impacted by I've I have not made a lot of pizza in my day, um, but flower choice, hydration, again, fermentation. 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.440 So you you do kind of have to change the end goal, right? 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:38.879 Yeah, 100%. 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:46.720 So I have a large chapter in the book about you know managing that extensibility and elasticity because you're right. 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:52.000 If if I had my pizza dough and I had to shape it into a loaf of bread, I'd probably be kind of scared, right? 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.240 Because it's super extensible, it's soft, it's easy to open up. 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:09.039 Um, and that near the end, I mean, those decisions to make that possible come in play throughout the entire lifetime of that dough, but they really come into play at the very end. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:21.440 And I think that, you know, I had a lot of testers testing recipes for the book, and I think that was one of the challenges that many of them had was that the dough was almost always under fermented when they went to stretch it. 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:21.759 Yeah. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:27.360 And so it didn't open up easy enough, or it was, you know, too cold, or whatever, whatever it might be. 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.519 But you're right, that extensibility is is is key for pizza. 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:32.159 Yes. 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:39.039 And I was thinking about that when I was reading your book and looking through some of the prompts that you give people. 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:46.080 And forgive me if I'm getting this number wrong, but I think there is only five different types of flour that you have listed at the beginning. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:46.720 That's right. 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:47.679 Is it five? 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.679 And I was thinking about each flour and kind of how they might contribute to that. 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.960 And

these we'll we'll get into flour a little bit more later, too. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:10.799 But I thought it was so interesting the choices that you made and like spelt and like a lower protein flour, because typically what you hear is that you need this like strong bread flour and type double zero. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:17.200 And so it it might be a new way of thinking about pizza for a lot of people, especially because it's also all sourdough. 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:18.720 So it's very exciting in that way. 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:19.680 It's like very simple. 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:21.759 You just have these five simple flowers. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:33.759 It's a sourdough starter that most people who are listening probably already have, and maybe um adjusting your mindset a little bit of like wanting something that's a little bit more extensible. 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:42.720 But I it to me, when I was reading it, it felt like it was sort of speaking the same language that you've already kind of taught us all of how to approach these things. 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:43.599 Yeah. 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:57.599 And I I think that was one of the early things I figured out was that you know, generally, even in bread baking, I I tend to stay away from super high protein flour just because of the eating, eating texture, the quality you get at the end. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.680 I mean, it definitely has its place. 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:14.319 Um, and I think for pizza, unless you're making a very specific style, like maybe a New York style where you want some chew in there, um, I really prefer just using all-purpose, like medium protein flour. 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.079 Um, it opens up, like it stretches easier when you go to top it. 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.559 It's way more tender when you're eating it. 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:21.039 Yeah. 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:38.079 Um, and for me, you know, I I grew up eating my dad's pizza, which was almost certainly very high protein because it was back in the day when he opened the restaurant, you know, it was this is the one flour we could get, which was called pizza flour. 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:48.799 Um, you know, I I think a lot of us nowadays we're we're spoiled in a good way in that we have these amazing farmers and millers that have all this incredible. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.200 I mean, I don't I've never heard of spelt flour when I was younger. 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.839 Like my dad just used the pizza flour. 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.160 Um, and it was high protein, but he got around it by increasing the hydration and um fermenting it longer. 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:09.359 And so, you know, trying to make it like pizza he had in Italy, but use what we had here in America. 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:10.559 Um yeah. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:16.559 I'm just imagining like a whole wall of bags of flour that just say pizza flour on them. 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:32.240 I mean, I I wish I had photos from back then because I I remember just stacks of flour and it was, I forgot if it was Cisco or you know, one of the distributors, one of the food distributors that just dropped off the sacks of flour. 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:33.759 Pizza flour. 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.519 Yeah, it's like the back, like the bags of money with like the dollar sign on it. 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.160 That's just like what I'm imagining of just pizza flour. 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:51.440 And you're right, we we have we're spoiled now that we have so many um options, but I do actually think sometimes having too many options can be paralyzing to some people. 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.559 So I do like that your book just kept it very simple. 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.839 I don't have to have a whole pantry full of all these different kinds of flour. 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:02.400 I just need a few and I can make every formula in the book, you know, just easier. 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:02.880 Yeah. 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:03.279 Yeah. 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:10.400 And then I, you know, I tried to branch out with a couple doughs that were more baker-like than you know, pizza makers. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.039 So there's a couple that have whole grain, you know, fresh, freshly milled flours. 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.680 Um, I have one crust that has rye in it, which is you know not typical, of course. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.359 Um and I did want to keep it simple though. 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:31.680 I want if you can get you know, whatever your medium protein, all-purpose flour is, you don't have to buy double zero from Italy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:33.359 I don't, I never use that here. 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.839 Unless I'm making panettone and I need a very particular flour. 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:38.319 Sure. 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:46.720 I don't I don't order flour from Italy, which is most likely, you know, North American grown grain sent over there, mill and sent back. 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:47.279 Right. 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:52.079 I mean, having baked and made pizza in Italy, it's incredible flour when you go there. 00:20:52.160 --> 00:21:01.359 And they they have, you know, they're they're craftsmen of of a high degree to do to make their flour, but we have amazing stuff here now, so it's like use what you have, you know. 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:05.119 I think many things can be true at once. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:10.319 I don't think that one flower is necessarily better than another. 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:24.960 It's at least what I'm especially learning and opening up to more the more interviews that I've done is it's really about proximity and what's available, what you can afford, and then making the best of that. 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:39.359 And like you said, with the flour that your dad was using, the pizza flour, even though it was probably very high protein and strong, he was able to manipulate the texture and the mouthfeel through

fermentation and through hydration. 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:43.359 And you just sort of learn to use what you have access to. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.400 But again, here we have a lot of choices now. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.440 We do. 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:53.839 And and I think what goes along with that is it's important if you know if you're interested in these things, right? 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:59.119 If you're interested in in baking bread, for me it it's my life, but not everybody, right? 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:05.839 If you want to just make A great pizza one week and then the next week you're not going to make pizza or you're not going to make pizza for a month after that. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:06.559 That's fine. 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:18.240 But what I like to do in my books is is in the front part of the book is really set people up with the knowledge to make those calls, like you just said, how do I adjust things in my kitchen? 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:31.200 I don't my preference is to do it that way instead of having a book that is just straight recipes because then it's kind of like you're giving somebody a boat, but what happens if something breaks and they don't know how to fix it? 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:31.519 You know? 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:32.160 So you need to know. 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:41.680 That's so interesting because I really do feel that about your first book, which I have out all the time, um, reference all the time. 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:47.599 I I can't imagine that anyone would read that book from cover to cover and feel confused about anything. 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:48.000 Yeah. 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:55.200 It's very thorough and you've taken the exact same care that you took for that book and put it into your pizza book. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:04.559 I would imagine that if someone took the time to read it cover to cover, they would have the tools that they needed to make the right decisions in the moment because that's what baking is all about. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.200 You can have a formula, you can have a recipe, right? 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:15.279 A recipe is a recipe, but it's about making choices in the moment to get the result that you want. 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:17.759 And you explain very well how to do that. 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:18.640 Oh, thank you. 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:25.359 I think that well, that that is the the baker's intuition or the baker's mindset that I talk about. 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.240 Um and I learned that early on. 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.759 It was like, okay, I can't just follow these things blindly. 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.279 There's too many variables. 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:33.599 Yes. 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.039 I need to know I need to know what the levers are. 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:38.640 What are the things I can change? 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.000 What are the things that I can manipulate to make the dough better? 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:43.039 Yeah. 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:44.480 That's really cool. 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.279 I would like to talk about your Levan. 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.240 So I'm a stiff Levan girly. 00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:55.920 I have been for years now, just for production, that's what works for me. 00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.039 I rarely make a liquid Levan anymore. 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.240 So I would like to hear about why you chose a liquid Levan. 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.319 Um you would talk about, you know, extensibility and using it really young. 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.240 Maybe we can touch on that a little bit. 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:18.319 So talk to me about how you landed on this type of Levan choice for your pizzas. 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:19.599 Yes. 00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.160 Um, so a lot of it was through trial and error. 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:23.759 Um what what things work. 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:29.119 I changed from hydration levels to temperature to durations. 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:36.400 Ultimately, with pizza, I think I want a pizza that's not overly sour. 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:43.920 Um I'm not looking for the same kind of depth of sour complexity, let's say, that I do in bread. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:52.000 I want it to be, I want it to have that additional flavor component, but I don't want it to be overpowering for the toppings that are down. 00:24:53.200 --> 00:25:02.960 So when I look to reduce really the overall accumulated acidity in the end, I want to have a Levon that's fast. 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:08.559 So it doesn't give bacteria enough time to build up enough acidity to transfer to that final dough. 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:13.359 So generally I call for around you know three and a half to four hour build. 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.599 Um, and I use, I guess step back first. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:22.160 I should say the book only has one preferment style. 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:22.480 Yes. 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:27.599 So there's there, my first book, I had a bunch of different styles depending on what I'm going into. 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:31.039 Um in this pizza book, I wanted it to be super simple. 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:39.039 I wanted it to have a mild um Levan that in the end wasn't overly acidic because I didn't want that in the final pizza. 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:48.640 So fast build, all white flour, um, you know, warm temperature, but not into the 80s, 80s Fahrenheit. 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:55.039 Um, and usually for most that will ripen around you know, three and a half to four and a half hours, let's say. 00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:56.559 Um, so that was the premise. 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:01.359 It was a really mild one used before it gets too acidic. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:03.440 So on the younger side, let's say. 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:06.079 Um, and those were kind of the levers I pulled. 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:13.839 Now, if you're a stiff LeBan person like yourself, Allie, you I can

make I can be flexible, but yes, please continue. 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:21.680 That that I think is is truly the ultimate way to have a mild build in the pizza, like a milder dough. 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:30.079 When I tested it though, the challenge there is that the visuals are harder, I think, to spot for readiness. 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:44.160 Um and I have had trouble in the past with bakers who have written in and said, you know, your stiff Levan doesn't expand, or you know, it's not the there's it's more complicated, I think. 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:59.680 I'm not saying it's so complicated that you can't do it, but sure as I'm writing the book, I'm also appealing to I'm trying to make it as easy as possible because already these things are complicated for the normal person who has other life things, not like me, right? 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:00.880 Like I'm obsessed. 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.559 I can my starter is pampered and spoiled. 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.799 Most people, they just want to have a good, a good pizza. 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.359 I think stiff starter is like level three baking. 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:16.000 It is not an intro style way to keep a starter. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.640 It adds complexity to the process. 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:23.359 You have to consider the amount of prefermented flour, you have to consider the final hydration. 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:26.799 It tends to make the dough a little bit tighter if you're not careful. 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:31.839 There's a lot of things that happen with it, which is exactly the opposite of what you're trying to do when you're making a pizza. 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:38.640 So I would I can understand why that wouldn't be the first choice, but it's like, well, if that's what I have, maybe I'll throw it in there kind of thing. 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:56.400 I think most people, especially your followers and your fans and the people who like to do what you do and have been, you know, baking from your book and following you on Instagram, like that one-to-one to one feels easy and it feels very normal for most people. 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.440 It's very comfortable, it's very, it's just easy. 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:00.960 It just makes sense. 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:06.880 And I'm wondering if you can kind of walk me through the timing of that for like when I get to eat pizza. 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:12.720 So if I'm building a one-to-one-to-one and I'm waiting four hours and then I'm mixing, when do I get to eat my pizza? 00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:15.920 So there that's a that's the number one question, right? 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:16.720 Yeah. 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.880 So there's recipes for same day um fermentation in the book. 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:25.359 So if you mixed it in the morning, you'd have a pizza by um dinner time. 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.279 Um, but most of the recipes are a two-day ferment. 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:36.880 And so it'll be let's say four hours for the Levant to ripen, and then about two and a half to three hours for the dough to bulk ferment. 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.920 Um, and then at that point, I divide the dough, ball it up, and then stick it in the fridge. 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:46.960 And so then the next day you pull it out whenever you want, a couple hours before you want to have pizza. 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:50.480 You could even leave it for two days if you, you know, depending on the recipe. 00:28:50.799 --> 00:29:00.319 So I tried to design it around home life in a way, in that if it's a Sunday, you can mix a batch of pizza dough if you want and then have pizza Monday and Tuesday. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:00.799 Cool. 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.440 Or you can mix it Friday and have pizza Saturday. 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.680 There's a lot of flexibility with the fridge. 00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:11.200 And I I think just to touch on one more thing about the stiff lavon or stiff starter. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:12.640 Please, I would love to talk about it. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:24.720 I find that if you work with a stiff variant, then it you can gain flexibility because the the point at which you need to use it, I feel like is a little bit larger. 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:29.440 You know, with a liquid Levon, you kind of have to time it. 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:34.799 There isn't a huge there isn't as big of a window as there is with a stiff variant. 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:39.680 Um, and so if that's in your practice, like if you want to use a stiff variety, that's totally fine. 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:45.920 You can adapt the recipes, just add a little bit more water to the dough, and you can make up make up the difference. 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:53.519 But you know that that's one sign of flexibility, and then the timeline that I just described for the dough, I think is another. 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:59.279 Um, there's a couple points in there where you can be flexible and make pizza on your schedule. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:01.920 Um I would like I like that. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.240 I would like to try it with the one-to-one to one because that's something I wish I could do more. 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:06.880 I really do. 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:12.559 It's just that I in production I don't always have the time because I'm my dough is going in the mixer at 5 a.m. 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:14.720 So it's like, yeah, you know what I mean? 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:25.759 Um, but when I have built a young or um a high inoculation liquid levant and used it a little bit young, I do like the results that I get. 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:33.519 It's just not time-wise always an option just for what I'm doing, but for the at-home person, I think it's a great option. 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.359 And I wanted to circle back because I skipped over it and I don't want to miss it. 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:42.480 You talk about using it young when it's a little bit sweeter,

not as sour. 00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:46.240 I've tried to chit-chat about this a little bit on the podcast. 00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:54.400 I've talked about starter, I've talked about pH mature versus young, but there's going to be people who are listening to this episode that haven't listened to my lessons episode. 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.400 So, what do you mean when you say a young Levan? 00:30:58.640 --> 00:30:59.599 What does that mean? 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.359 Yeah, that's a great question because it it's very nebulous, right? 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:14.240 Um, you know, in the book I I lay out temperatures and things, but things in your kitchen may not be as precise as what I keep here. 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:22.480 So really, when it's young, I'm looking for um, you know, if you keep it in a glass jar, you're gonna see a bunch of bubbles at the side. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.640 You're not gonna see as many on top. 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:31.759 So it's not gonna be frothy, it's not gonna be super lively on top, a lot of bubbles popping and going kind of crazy. 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:33.680 That's when it's gone a little bit too far. 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:37.279 Um for the aroma, it's sweeter. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:44.960 It's gonna be kind of yogurty, like not like the crazy sour Greek yogurts, but some of the like more mild yogurt. 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.880 Um it will be soft but not watery. 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:51.359 So it's not gonna be really broken down. 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:56.960 If you smell things like kind of alcohol, a little bit too alcoholic, yeah, vinegary. 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:04.640 I talk about in the book, it's better to do make another really fast Levan and dilute it down to kind of bring that acidity back. 00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:05.039 Okay. 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:07.279 Um and so that that's really what I'm looking for. 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:16.400 And if you try to get the temperatures right, the time frame that I prescribe in the book, which is around you know, three and a half to four hours, should be right on. 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:30.480 And I think, you know, ultimately, what's great about the way that I formulated this pizza dough is that even if you use it a little bit early or you use it a little bit late, it's fine because you can adjust later in the proof stage. 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:35.440 You can you'll be able to see the dough, see how it's progressing, and then pull back on the proof. 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.599 So no one needs to panic if they dropped it too early or too late. 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:40.880 It's gonna be okay. 00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:47.599 There, you know, I I think, and I think I've I heard you guys talk about this in one of your previous episodes. 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:52.400 It's it it there are no strict rules here. 00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.640 It's all a matter of you making the call in your kitchen. 00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:03.599 Like if it's a little bit over, don't panic, don't freak out, just go with it and adjust next time. 00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:04.079 That's it. 00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:14.480 I I don't know why, but I feel sometimes that others, and sometimes I fall into this trap that this is like a very high-stakes scenario. 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:16.960 It's not, it's just bread. 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:17.839 It's gonna be okay. 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.240 You're gonna put cheese on it and you're gonna put some meat and it's gonna be great. 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:23.119 It's gonna be okay. 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:23.759 No matter what. 00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:26.079 And there's there's always a pivot at the end. 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:42.319 If it if it's too crazy, you can make focaccia or make a flatbread or can we let our listeners know what to expect from your book as far as percentages of whole grain? 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.799 There's a variety, so there's little and there's a lot. 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.880 Can you give us a little sneak peek into what that range looks like? 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.240 Um for different types of dough. 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:55.200 Sure. 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:57.920 I've tested I tested pizza doughs. 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:03.119 So I'm specifically talking about a round pizza that you have to kind of launch in the oven. 00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:03.519 Yep. 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.799 I tested all the way up to 100% whole wheat. 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:11.519 Um and honestly, I didn't super love it. 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:16.400 Um I'm a big whole grain, freshly milled flour person. 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.320 Like I love that in my baking. 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:23.440 Um, but I didn't I don't want to go too far with pizza. 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:24.320 I think it's great. 00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:25.440 I think you can do it. 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.360 But for me, I think somewhere in the middle is good. 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:34.719 I think I really like around 30 to 40 percent of the flour as whole grain. 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:35.280 Great. 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:43.039 Um, somewhere around there strikes the balance for me where it's still light um and airy, but you get a lot more flavor. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.599 Yes. 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:53.760 Um and you know, as you increase the whole grain percentage with sourdough, you you have to always think about the acidity and managing fermentation from that side. 00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:54.880 Absolutely. 00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:58.960 I have, you know, I teach a three-day class now, the science of sourdough. 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.360 And on the first day is mostly lecture. 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:09.760 And one of the things that we spend a bit of time talking about is how much whole grain is enough whole grain, right? 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:17.840 Because it it can feel like an accolade of like my pizza dough is 100% whole grain, and like that's right, fantastic. 00:35:18.159 -->

00:35:24.480 But I have some criteria in my mind for what whole grain needs to be and how much to use. 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.199 And one of the criteria is will my child eat it? 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:30.800 Because that's a good one. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.960 You know, it needs to look good. 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:33.840 That's very important. 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.599 We eat with our eyes first. 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:39.440 Um, the mouthfeel is really big for me. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:47.840 Um, I need I don't like to work very hard to chew my food as like a big pet peeve of mine when it's supposed to be something soft to eat. 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:53.039 And so it needs to have a really great mouthfeel and not have too much like gritty feel. 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:58.159 Um and will my five-year-old eat a slice of it. 00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:58.960 Right, right. 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.280 So she's gonna tell me straight up. 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:01.920 Yeah. 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:07.039 They're the they're the best judge, and I think you know, my kids will tell me immediately. 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.840 They're like, this is this doesn't taste good, or I don't like it. 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:10.960 Oh, no filter. 00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:13.519 Adults will consider your feelings. 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:14.880 Right. 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:20.000 Your children do not care at all, and they will tell you. 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:31.119 So um it's an interesting thing to think about because obviously whole grains are kind of becoming trendy now, and people want more of it and put as much in as possible. 00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:36.800 But it's so important to remember that you can't sacrifice the other things. 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.239 You can't sacrifice the visuals and you can't sacrifice the mouthfeel. 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.920 And so finding that balance is important. 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:48.960 So you're saying 30, 40% is kind of that sweet spot for you. 00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:55.840 I'm sure that you're able to taste it, but it's not compromising any of the other qualities that you want in your pizza dough. 00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:56.960 Right. 00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.639 And, you know, I have a bunch of focaccia recipes in the book too. 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:10.239 Um and in there, I do have a hundred percent whole grain focaccia because I can crank the water in the dough really high. 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:12.719 Yeah, I'm super excited to make that one, by the way. 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:14.159 It it's phenomenal. 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:24.800 Um and what I love about it is that because of the pan, you can, you know, if I try to launch that dough in the oven as a pizza, like a round pizza, it's just it's not gonna happen. 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:25.840 It's not gonna go well. 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:35.599 And so I play a little bit more in the focaccio recipes with um different kinds of grains, um, some different freshly floured option or freshly milled flour options. 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:55.360 Um and you know, I I love pushing the whole grains in my baking in everywhere I can, but you're right, like there, I think there it doesn't have to be a you know, we we don't have to be like polarizing in that like white flour is bad or or whole grain flour is bad. 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.920 There's a a spectrum that we can play in, yeah depending on what you're making. 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.280 Um and if you're passionate about whole grains, you can always turn the dial up a little more if you want. 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:07.360 This is just these are just starting points, right? 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:12.159 This is for for people to experiment and play, and it's what I found that I love. 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:17.679 As the author, I have to make a stand somewhere, and I think you know, where I've where I've landed is great. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:27.199 I have so much respect for what you've done with this book because I do think, not all, but a lot of books that come out. 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:32.079 This is another great example, is um Martin Sorge's book that just came out too. 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:38.159 He was on the podcast where he's using whole grains as percentages, um, some whole grain things too. 00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:45.599 But I think some people shy away from it when they're writing a bake book because they're like, oh, people don't really want this or they don't know how to use it. 00:38:45.679 --> 00:39:03.599 But you're so you stand so strongly in your convictions of wanting to use whole grain and supporting local farmers that you're like, I'm gonna put it in the book, but I'm going to do it in a way that tastes really great, um, has a great mouthfeel, is easy to do because not everyone is a professional baker like we are, right? 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.440 And you get the best of both worlds. 00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:06.239 It's okay. 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.000 Again, two things can be true at once. 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:18.400 It's okay to use roller milled white flour and incorporate a really healthy amount of fresh whole wheat or whatever whole wheat you have access to. 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:20.559 Yeah, yeah, I agree 100%. 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:21.519 Yeah. 00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:23.599 Doing it, doing the work. 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:25.599 Trying to do the good work, yes. 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:27.199 Yeah, you are. 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:30.079 Um, can we talk about hydration? 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:32.400 Oh my gosh, we're gonna run out of time so quickly. 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:37.280 But I feel like I could talk to you for many hours about bread and just totally geek out. 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:45.119 But I I would like to talk about hydration a little bit because this is somewhere I struggle just because I'm not I don't make a lot of pizza. 00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:46.880 I will now that I have your book.

00:39:47.039 --> 00:40:00.400 But um I when I first started making sourdough pizza, I think I added too much water because you know, in the bread world, at least when I first started, it was like more water, more hydration is better. 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:05.039 But then you forget, like, you gotta cook that out of the dough in the pizza oven. 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:06.719 And there's also toppings on it. 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.000 So then I had this sad, soggy dough. 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:16.800 So hydration is extremely important, especially when it comes to pizza because stuff is going on top of it. 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:24.239 So, um, how do we how did you like figure out the correct hydration and why is that important? 00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:27.920 Yeah, it's a super important topic. 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:33.920 Um, I think I talk about hydration more than anything with bread and pizza combined. 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:45.199 Yeah, it's like always battling hydration issues, or you know, you're fly, you know, I write a recipe and people say the dough's too wet or you know, it's it's too stiff. 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.519 You know, it's so location dependent. 00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:54.000 Um and that's true about pizza too, because everybody's flour is different, everybody's environment is different. 00:40:55.039 --> 00:41:06.639 Um, but the general rule that I've found is that you know, the longer the bake time for the pizza, depending on the style that you're making, the more water you're gonna need in the dough. 00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:12.960 Because what you said, it takes because the pizza is gonna take long, let's let's take the home oven, for example. 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:13.519 Uh-huh. 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:17.920 Generally 500 to 550 Fahrenheit in there. 00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:26.159 Um, that is high enough to make amazing pizza, but not as high as let's say a pizzeria would typically use. 00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.480 They would generally go a little bit higher, maybe 600, depending on the style. 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.639 Neapolitan's up at you know, eight, nine hundred, even higher. 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:44.960 So if your pizza is gonna bake longer because the temperature is a little bit lower in your home oven, you're gonna need a little bit more water in there so that it doesn't dry out into a cracker, essentially. 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:46.000 Okay. 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:56.400 So for the recipes that I have in the book, there's slightly higher hydration, but not so high that the dough becomes impossible to handle. 00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:56.880 Okay. 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.880 We can say, you know, as you gain proficiency, we can increase that hydration more and more. 00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:09.119 And I think it does make a better pizza in the home oven, but I have to be I have to find a compromise. 00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:15.679 I don't want it to be so high that people can't shape the dough and then they can't even launch the pizza in the first place. 00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:16.159 Right. 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:29.679 Um, so you know, for pizza, for sourdough pizza, I've found anywhere between like 68% to you know mid-70s is is kind of where I've landed. 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:35.119 And it just is really going to depend on your flour where you kind of land and the style that you're making. 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:35.679 Yeah. 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:41.760 That feels for someone who's only making bread, that might sound really low. 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:43.039 It sounds low. 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:44.320 It sounds scary low. 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:45.840 It sounds scary low. 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:54.960 But what you just said was that if it's much higher, that the dough becomes difficult to stretch. 00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:56.960 Stretch, manipulate. 00:42:57.760 --> 00:42:59.679 So why talk to me about that? 00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:05.119 How is the hydration impacting the dough when it's so low like that? 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:08.639 It's low, but it's still stretchy and extensible. 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:10.480 Like what contributes to that? 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:12.239 Just because I don't know anything about pizza. 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:12.639 Tell me. 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.599 Yeah, so so part of it is the is just the process. 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:19.199 So um I usually do a little bit of an auto-lease at the beginning. 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.280 Um that helps speed up the mixing, makes it a little bit more extensible. 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:35.280 I call for the lower protein flour, yes, um, which stretches, opens up a little easier, and then the hydration's at enough of at high enough to where you know it can make opening easier. 00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:49.360 But then the dough is proofed a lot longer than it's bulk fermented, which I've found gives it that time to relax, spread out, and by the time you go to to stretch it, it's it's extensible enough to to open it up. 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:50.639 I see what you're saying. 00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:59.760 So you're you have cut it, you know, after bulk fermentation and put it into little balls, and that long rest makes it really easy to. 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:00.480 Right. 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:02.000 Even with the lower hydration. 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:03.360 Okay, that's really interesting. 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:03.840 Right. 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:09.360 How do you, for someone who's not making pizza, how do you store those little balls? 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:11.440 Do I need a special container for them? 00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:16.960 You can use um like a four cup Pyrex container, like the typical leftovers. 00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:18.159 Um I use those. 00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:19.199 The lid. 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:19.760 The lid. 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:20.800 Yeah, I saw that in your book. 00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:25.840 Yeah, that's cool because then you can pull

individual dough balls out of the fridge. 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:26.559 Smart. 00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:32.719 Um here at home, I use um just a deeper, it's a dough tray. 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.079 What what I would have found at my dad's restaurant, but they've made it for the home. 00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:38.880 So, you know, Runi or Gosni, they make those. 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:45.360 Um, and I put my dough in there if I know I'm gonna make a certain amount, like let's say four dough balls, I'll put four in there. 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.679 Um, or you can do the individual containers. 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.239 You can also use a baking sheet um with a snap-on lid. 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:52.880 Yeah. 00:44:53.119 --> 00:45:03.119 Any anything that will keep it airtight is is very I'm just I mean, my kids eat a lot of food, and when they have their friends over, it's like, watch out. 00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:14.079 So I'm imagining prepping more than one or two doughs and storing them, but that's a a really good idea, the um baking tray with a lid. 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:14.639 Yeah. 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.840 Because I feel like a lot of us kind of already have something like that. 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.800 Um there too. 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:21.280 Oh, okay. 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:22.559 Six six pizzas on that. 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:23.519 On a half sheet. 00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:23.760 Yeah. 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:24.239 Oh. 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:30.000 And I'm just also sometimes I like to have things that I don't need in the kitchen because they look cool. 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:34.639 So I like the idea of having like a specific box just for the just for the dough. 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:42.559 And when you have the specific fancier box, do you need to put anything down underneath the dough to store it in there? 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:45.679 You mean to keep it non stick? 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:46.159 Yeah. 00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:47.039 Yes. 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:56.480 So I used to heavily back in the day, because I want to say I used to see my dad um grease it with olive oil. 00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:02.079 His in in the restaurant, they used to have these metal containers that they would keep in the fridge. 00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:06.239 Um but you can also dust it with flour. 00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:10.719 But nowadays, I honestly don't put anything in there because it's just another thing to clean. 00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:16.719 Uh but if if you're gonna do anything, I usually will put a light dusting of flour on the bottom. 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:23.920 And then do you also find that if something is well fermented, it just kind of comes out because it really only sticks to itself. 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:31.840 Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is nowadays I don't put anything in there because you're using a spatula too to kind of scrape it out. 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:32.559 Oh, yeah. 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:39.760 As long as it's not over fermented, then, you know, or it's you know, under fermented and it's not strong enough, it does just kind of pull up. 00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:46.320 Well, that's a great cue for anyone who's unsure if their dough is at the right level of fermentation. 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:50.480 If it's coming out easily, that can be a pretty big clue that all is well. 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:51.199 Yeah. 00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:55.119 Or it can be a clue that we're having focaccia for dinner instead of being a good one. 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:55.920 Which isn't so bad. 00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:56.719 That's not a bad ending. 00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:57.760 It's not so bad. 00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:05.119 So I would love to ask you two more questions, and that should fill up our whole time together. 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:15.360 The first one is the last time that we spoke on the phone when you called me when I first started the podcast, which was really generous and sweet, by the way. 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:17.039 You're a very nice person. 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:28.639 Um you told me that you were doing the bread thing more full-time now, like it had kind of taken over for you, and you've been able to walk away from what you were doing before and focus on this. 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:38.159 And you've you're so generous with your time with the community and heavily focused on education and making things very approachable. 00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:43.440 Do you feel like you have found your calling in life? 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:48.159 And if so, why has this work held your attention and your heart? 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:55.760 Do you feel like this is a really deep question, but do you feel like you're you're living out your purpose with this work versus what you were doing before? 00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:58.639 Oh, we're getting getting philosophical indeed. 00:47:58.960 --> 00:47:59.440 Yeah, we are. 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:01.920 Um yes. 00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:05.360 I mean, the answer just full stop is yes for sure. 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:19.360 Um I love my previous career, which I, you know, I still dabble a little bit in engineering, which I think is there's a certain mindset you have, um solving problems and architecting solutions and things. 00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:27.360 Um but I think because I, you know, I grew up in a food family, you know, we'd go to Italy all the time. 00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.000 My parents always cooked food at home. 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:45.280 Um, I think it was always in me to do some type of food, you know, whether I worked at a restaurant or, you know, hopefully I I I like to dream that I would have become an actual baker in a bakery somewhere. 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:46.000 Yeah. 00:48:46.239 --> 00:49:00.880 Um I it satisfies me making food that I love, that I get really excited about, that I, you know, I nerd out about the flour, the formulation, the percentages, and then I bake this cool thing. 00:49:01.119

--> 00:49:12.800 When it comes out great, and I share it with people, there's just there is this feedback you get, I think that you can't I couldn't get in other areas of life, right? 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:33.760 I couldn't get it in my previous job when I would even when I would make a piece of software that was gratifying, you don't have that immediate feedback, and people give you, you know, people give you a certain appreciation for something they've seen you make with your hands over two, three days that you can't really get in other walks of life. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.199 Um and I don't think it's all external either. 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:39.280 So that's that's sounding very external, right? 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:51.280 Yeah, but I think internally it brings me some joy that I didn't know was there until I started experimenting and having fun with dough, essentially. 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:58.079 Um and you know, I still love engineering, and I think there's a part of me that does it in a bread way. 00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:05.599 Um but yeah, this is this kind of education and and baking for people is it's it's hard to replicate. 00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:07.360 You said something interesting. 00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:15.280 You said that in your last job you were solving a lot of problems, but I actually kind of feel you're doing that here too. 00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:24.639 You are constantly helping people solve problems and diagnose problems and think about structure and um levers that you can pull. 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:29.280 And in a way, it's a little bit similar, don't you think? 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:30.719 I I think it is. 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:42.880 I mean, there's there is an engineer mindset that I I take when I um or that I have when I I do these things, and then I I love the troubleshooting part that that challenge is the cool part. 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:44.559 It's like why isn't this dough working? 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:48.159 Or you know, like solving a a puzzle a little bit. 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:50.960 All all day, every day there's puzzles, you know. 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:55.760 Like I said about you know, hydration's a good one, but there's always something to to work on there. 00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:57.599 Um yeah. 00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:14.559 I see people entering this space daily, and I see people leaving this space daily, but you've made it an actual career so much so that you could walk away from your last job and do this full time. 00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:23.519 And do you think that that's uh an option for anyone who might be wondering if this was the right career move for them? 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:25.280 Like how did you make this work? 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:28.639 I I think it is a hundred percent an option. 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:31.360 I think it's you know, what is it you want to do? 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:33.360 What is it you really want to do, right? 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:35.920 That's the question that we're all always asking ourselves. 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.400 Um you're lucky if you find that right out of the gate. 00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:40.960 Right. 00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:47.360 Um, but I think in the end, is this something that really lights you up every day? 00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:51.599 If it is, figure out a way to make it your career. 00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:52.320 That's what I did. 00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:53.920 I knew I couldn't open a bakery. 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.239 I had just had two kids. 00:51:56.400 --> 00:52:00.719 There's no way I could have run a bakery like I know that I would have done it. 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:05.760 Um and back then there were cot I couldn't even do cottage baking here in Albuquerque. 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:08.960 There were the laws were against it, and so I couldn't even do it. 00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:11.760 Um and I just stuck with it. 00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:15.760 And it was just there was a a bit of being stubborn that comes with it, right? 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:17.599 It's like I didn't want to give it up. 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:23.199 Um, I needed to figure out a way that I could kind of craft a business around doing what I love. 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:23.760 Yes. 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:27.360 Um, and I found this kind of unique niche. 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:27.920 Yes. 00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:32.480 Um, and but I think anybody can do that if they're really truly passionate about it. 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:33.679 I think it's possible. 00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:37.599 I also think that hard work needs to meet passion. 00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:38.320 For sure. 00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:38.800 Right. 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:45.760 Like you can you've you've done an extraordinary amount of work in this space, and you've put in the time. 00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:51.760 You have you know monthly newsletters that are coming out, you're constantly developing new formulas. 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:56.159 You are putting in the work to meet the level of passion that you have about it. 00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:56.880 Yeah. 00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:59.119 Yeah, I think it it does it requires that. 00:52:59.280 --> 00:52:59.519 Yes. 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:07.119 And you know, we could probably have another podcast about um previous lives, like you know, I was an athlete before I even was an engineer. 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:12.480 And I think that that teaches you to put in the work every day. 00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:17.199 If you don't do it, you're not gonna make you're not gonna win the race or you're not gonna win the soccer game. 00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:17.760 Yes. 00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:22.719 Um, and everybody, I I I truly believe everybody has it within them. 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:24.559 And I'm teaching my kids this daily. 00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:27.440 It's like you can dig deep when you need to dig deep. 00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:30.719 When you're interested, when you're passionate, you can you

can dig it. 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:31.119 Yeah. 00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:36.239 I sometimes forget that we have that in common, the athletic background. 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:43.440 I do think that there's a mindset that happens when you come from that world of hell or high water. 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:44.960 We are going to get this done. 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:50.559 I don't care how uncomfortable I am, I don't care how much my back hurts, like we're just gonna make it to the finish line. 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:56.719 And it translates really well into bread baking, which is at times a very labor intensive job. 00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:01.039 But it's it's labor-intensive and it can be it can be frustrating at times. 00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:06.880 And I I think you just have to learn that grit and resiliency just to kind of stick with it. 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.639 And you know, that's that's all making it sound very heavy and no, it's not. 00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:11.760 Yeah, we're happy here. 00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:12.559 It's not. 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:18.000 But when if you want to make a career out of, you know, especially in the food industry, you know, I grew up in it. 00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:21.360 I saw my dad struggle with the day-to-day. 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:22.159 It's hard. 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:28.960 I I get a lot of comments of, oh, it must be so nice to have a job that you're so passionate about. 00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.800 You've turned your hobby into a career. 00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:34.079 And like some ways, yes, that's true. 00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:47.440 I am very fortunate that I get to do a job that I I absolutely love, but that doesn't take away from the many, many hours of hard work, tears, mistakes. 00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:51.280 Just it's at the end of the day, it's it is a job, right? 00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:54.800 But thankfully it's a job that I feel very passionate about. 00:54:54.880 --> 00:55:03.679 And no matter what happens, no how no matter how many loaves I accidentally burn or overproof, or you know, I I still want to do it. 00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:05.519 And that is very special. 00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:07.360 I feel thankful to have something like that. 00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:10.480 So if you can make it work, it is a great place to be. 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.840 But just like any other job, there will be challenges that come with it. 00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:14.480 Yeah. 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:15.039 Yeah. 00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:17.599 And that if everything was easy, right? 00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:22.719 If you get into something and it every day there's no challenge, you're not gonna grow. 00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:26.960 Your customers, your customers are gonna get bored probably of what you're making. 00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:27.440 Yeah. 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:37.840 Um, and you know, if there's one principle in my life that I've I've lived by, it's curiosity and discomfort, you know, growth through discomfort. 00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.960 Those are the things that I I live by every day. 00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:42.639 I want to, I want to try new formulas. 00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.280 I want to try new stuff, new grains, new whatever. 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:48.719 Um, and then grow from that, like learn and become better. 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:52.719 This triticale is helping me grow right now. 00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:56.800 I know I'm I'm playing with it here and it's it's not easy. 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.480 Um had some real dense coffee cake this morning. 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.719 Um so let's tell everyone when your book officially comes out. 00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:10.639 It's available now for pre-order, but what is the day that I could walk into the store and buy it? 00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:13.119 So it comes out November 10th. 00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:14.639 Um, the perfect pizza. 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:21.519 Yeah, it'll be Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere, you know, your local bookstore, even better. 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:25.519 Um and it it should be everywhere books are sold, as they say. 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:26.400 Great. 00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:28.639 And will you be doing a book tour? 00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:31.440 I'm not doing a book tour as of this moment. 00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:40.800 I'm going around, um, I will be doing a talk um in early December at Rosoli Bookstore in New York City. 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:43.519 So I haven't haven't sent anything out yet about that. 00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:46.639 Um, it'll be uh, you know, kind of a book signing. 00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:54.559 I have a cool my friend Matt Rodbard's gonna be there doing a little bit of an interview, um and then we'll just talk pizza and and bread. 00:56:54.880 --> 00:56:55.679 Very cool. 00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.719 And how else can our listeners support you? 00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:06.639 I'm assuming that everyone listening is probably already following you, but in case not, where can we find you on Instagram, your website? 00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:09.599 Tell us where you're where you're kicking it. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.639 Theperfectloaf.com is is my home. 00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:14.960 Um that's where I publish pretty often. 00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:18.239 And then um just at Maurizio on on Instagram. 00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:19.519 Fantastic. 00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:21.119 Well, this is very exciting. 00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:30.480 This was um a conversation that went by so quickly, and I am very excited to make some pizza. 00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:31.360 Great. 00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:34.320 Well and try something new that I've not tried before. 00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:35.679 So that's what it's all about. 00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:36.960 It is, yeah. 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:41.599 And I'm I'm glad to be on here, and I'll I'll have to come back and do maybe we could do a bread, bread focused one. 00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:42.800 Yeah, that would be fun. 00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:43.920 That would be fun. 00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:44.719 But you know what? 00:57:44.800 --> 00:57:50.079 You've spoken at length about bread, and again, you've been so generous with your information. 00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:54.559 I think one time I messaged you, I'm like, how do you have time to answer all these questions that everyone asks you? 00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:55.280 I don't understand. 00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:01.679 And you said a lot of people showed me kindness, and so I try to pay it for it, and I was like, that's really nice. 00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:10.480 And um, yeah, you've you've been so generous with your bread information, and I think it's really cool that we're talking about something that you haven't really talked about yet. 00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:11.199 Great. 00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:12.079 It was fun. 00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:13.039 Yeah, this was fun. 00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:17.199 Okay, I'm gonna end the recording for us and then we can chat for a few more minutes. 00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:18.480 Bye, everybody. 00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:21.519 A huge thank you to Maurizio for joining me today. 00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:31.119 One thing that has stayed with me since I had this conversation with him was the part that he said about curiosity and growth through discomfort. 00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:44.400 I think that's something so many of us who have made baking a big part of our lives can relate to because there's always another problem to solve, another grain to experiment with, or something new to learn. 00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:47.519 And I really appreciate his approach to education. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:54.400 He's not just giving us formulas, he's helping us understand how to solve those problems, how to make our own decisions. 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.239 And I think that's just such a valuable gift to the baking community. 00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:04.079 His new book, The Perfect Pizza, is available now, wherever books are sold. 00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:10.960 You can also find him at theperfectloaf.com and on his Instagram at Horizio. 00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:15.280 M-A-U-R-I-Z-I-O. 00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:24.159 If you enjoyed this episode of the Saving Bread Podcast, share it with someone who loves bread or pizza, and I'll see you all next week. 00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:25.760 Bye, friends. 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.280 Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:37.199 Music by Joshua from Dope. 00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:41.119 I'm Allie White. 00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:47.199 And as always, happy baking and long live real bread.