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sounds quite addictive. 00;02;45;29 - 00;02;53;11 Speaker 2 It's what it does is that it brings a bit of color into your drab, gray existence. You know what I mean? 00;02;53;13 - 00;02;54;16 Speaker 3 So when you. 00;02;54;16 - 00;02;56;21 Speaker 2 Are in hyper stimulated states like that. 00;02;56;21 - 00;02;56;28 Speaker 3 At. 00;02;56;28 - 00;02;59;01 Speaker 2 Least you know you're alive. 00;02;59;01 - 00;03;02;23 Speaker 3 Okay, so there's that. 00;03;02;26 - 00;03;16;28 Speaker 2 There's the sort of quotidian and rather unwelcoming anxiety that you can get when, for example, you might get an audit notice from the IRS and you go. 00;03;17;01 - 00;03;17;15 Speaker 3 God, where. 00;03;17;15 - 00;03;20;08 Speaker 2 Are the receipts? You know, that kind of thing. 00;03;20;11 - 00;03;21;02 Speaker 3 In fact, I. 00;03;21;04 - 00;03;38;20 Speaker 2 Always it's the first you know, I'm not from around here. I mean, I know we're in virtual space, but I'm not from America. Can you tell listeners I was born a long way away, but I've been in America for more than a quarter of a century, and I'm just getting used to it. But the first year I was here, I was. 00;03;38;20 - 00;03;39;09 Speaker 3 Audited. 00;03;39;16 - 00;03;50;24 Speaker 2 By the IRS. I thought it was an unfriendly move on their part. Anyway, to my mild surprise, I was able to find all the documents and they gave me a refund of $11. 00;03;50;26 - 00;03;56;14 Speaker 3 It's a real. 00;03;56;17 - 00;04;09;16 Speaker 2 Genuine verge of losing control of the bodily functions. Tara I think I've only experienced that. 00;04;09;16 - 00;04;11;10 Speaker 3 Once in my. 00;04;11;10 - 00;04;11;26 Speaker 2 Life, I. 00;04;11;26 - 00;04;13;13 Speaker 3 Think. 00;04;13;16 - 00;04;35;21 Speaker 2 Is that right? Yeah, I think it is. I mean, of this level and I'll tell you about it. So I, I was I was about I was about 20 in my late twenties. I was living in London and in north west London. There's a most wonderful public space. It's called Hampstead. 00;04;35;23 - 00;04;36;27 Speaker 3 Heath. 00;04;36;29 - 00;04;40;29 Speaker 2 And it's very famous. It's 700 or 800 acres. 00;04;41;01 - 00;04;41;09 Speaker 3 Of. 00;04;41;09 - 00;04;57;22 Speaker 2 Semi wild managed woodland. It's really beautiful and it's famous because there's a hill at the southern end of it called Parliament Hill. And the reason it's called Parliament Hill is that if you were traveling to London from the north. 00;04;57;25 - 00;04;58;20 Speaker 3 In the. 00;04;58;23 - 00;05;07;26 Speaker 2 Pre-modern days, it was the first place from which you could see the Houses of Parliament, therefore called Parliament Hill. 00;05;07;29 - 00;05;09;20 Speaker 3 Right. 00;05;09;23 - 00;05;13;29 Speaker 2 Anyway, it's it's of course mostly inhabited now. 00;05;13;29 - 00;05;16;07 Speaker 3 By. 00;05;16;10 - 00;05;21;27 Speaker 2 Drug dealers and Russian oligarchs, because they're the only people who can afford it. 00;05;22;00 - 00;05;24;28 Speaker 3 It's

it's very it's absolute. 00;05;24;28 - 00;05;44;26 Speaker 2 But in the old days, it used to be sort of tweedy and crumbly. And, you know, it was a sort of British tea shop type of vibe. The heath is immensely beautiful and it's full of nature and wildlife and there are ponds where you can go swimming and things like that. Anyway, I was living there and not far from. 00;05;44;26 - 00;05;47;16 Speaker 3 There and. 00;05;47;18 - 00;06;10;00 Speaker 2 I don't know where I'd been, but it was late at night. It was it was midnight or maybe half an hour later than midnight. And I was walking home and there's I thought, I'll go across a Parliament Hill. So from the east to the west side, I'll go. I'll cut across Parliament Hill fields, then I'll go up the hill and down the other side, and then that'll save me two miles. 00;06;10;02 - 00;06;14;09 Speaker 2 Okay. Well, I was in a sensitive condition anyway, because. 00;06;14;10 - 00;06;15;17 Speaker 3 I just. 00;06;15;19 - 00;06;35;25 Speaker 2 Been through a break up, you know, one of those. Funny how it hurts so much when you're kids. You know, I suppose you get used to it as you go older. Anyway, I was pretty devastated. I had all the symptoms, all that stuff. You know, I was writing poetry about the other person, that kind of thing. And it it was a misty night. 00;06;35;28 - 00;06;49;23 Speaker 2 And in the slope up to Parliament Hill, there are some there's a place, what it's called Parliament Hill fields, because there are sort of meadows adjacent. And as I walked. 00;06;49;23 - 00;06;50;24 Speaker 3 Up the. 00;06;50;28 - 00;07;06;17 Speaker 2 Fairly gentle slope, the mist seemed to gather and I heard some yelling in the distance, which is not unusual in Hampstead Heath. People used to go on there and, you know, have a picnic or. 00;07;06;20 - 00;07;07;24 Speaker 3 You know. 00;07;07;26 - 00;07;20;05 Speaker 2 Whatever. After hours. It was it wasn't densely populated. But occasionally, you know, kids having families or whatever, nothing madly serious and not hugely dangerous either. 00;07;20;07 - 00;07;21;26 Speaker 3 But then this. 00;07;21;26 - 00;07;48;17 Speaker 2 Is what happened. The slope began to get a bit steeper. And I, I suddenly looked to my right and in the distance, which I now estimate of about maybe 300 yards, So quite a long way away. I saw a large figure, which I estimated to be about 13 feet high. 00;07;48;19 - 00;07;51;01 Speaker 3 And I kind of. 00;07;51;03 - 00;07;53;00 Speaker 2 I thought, what did I see? No. 00;07;53;02 - 00;07;54;04 Speaker 3 No, I. 00;07;54;05 - 00;07;59;20 Speaker 2 Didn't see that. I'm imagining something. So I stepped on again. Now I looked again to my right. This time. 00;07;59;22 - 00;07;59;24 Speaker 3 It. 00;07;59;28 - 00;08;01;10 Speaker 2 Was a bit closer, maybe two. 00;08;01;10 - 00;08;02;28 Speaker 3 Hundred yards, and it was. 00;08;02;28 - 00;08;12;24 Speaker 2 Still 13 feet high. As tall is about, you know, twice the height of a of a six foot guy. And it was shrouded in a white. 00;08;12;27 - 00;08;13;23 Speaker 3 Cowl like. 00;08;13;23 - 00;08;14;05 Speaker 2 A white. 00;08;14;05 - 00;08;15;09 Speaker 3 Hood and. 00;08;15;09 - 00;08;45;14 Speaker 2 Like a monk's robe. And I couldn't see it. I couldn't see his feet. I couldn't see it a moving. But it was approaching me and it was approaching me with there's a phrase in a book by George MacDonald, which tells a similarly spooky episode and the phrases with a speedy approach but a delayed arrival. So it was rushing towards me, but not getting much closer. 00;08;45;16 - 00;08;48;05 Speaker 2 Just a little bit closer. But the huge speed. 00;08;48;12 - 00;08;57;12 Speaker 3 And here's the thing. It was screaming. Yes, it was screaming. 00;08;57;15 - 00;09;03;26 Speaker 2 And it was like the screaming psycho. You know, in that film, when Anthony Perkins stabs them, you know, whatever. And I was. 00;09;04;01 - 00;09;06;16 Speaker 3 Right. Right. It was I. 00;09;06;16 - 00;09;23;19 Speaker 2 Actually saw that film in a cinema in London called the Paris Pullman. And the air was so thick with cannabis smoke you couldn't see the no smoking signs. So you could imagine when that scream happened. Well, it was like that. 00;09;23;22 - 00;09;26;12 Speaker 3 But more. 00;09;26;14 - 00;09;28;05 Speaker 2 And suddenly. 00;09;28;07 - 00;09;29;04 Speaker 3 I was. 00;09;29;06 - 00;09;49;04 Speaker 2 I was absolutely terrified. And I still didn't believe what I was seeing. I thought, this is complete the impossible. So I took another step forward. But then here's the thing. Each step became like moving through soup. It became harder and. 00;09;49;04 - 00;09;51;20 Speaker 3 Harder to progress. And I. 00;09;51;20 - 00;09;54;01 Speaker 2 Looked over to my right and the figure was. 00;09;54;03 - 00;09;54;13 Speaker 3 Was. 00;09;54;13 - 00;09;54;29 Speaker 2 Near. 00;09;54;29 - 00;09;55;19 Speaker 3 Now. 00;09;55;21 - 00;10;05;03 Speaker 2 And still rushing. And the scream had become louder. And then I accepted that I was in fact seeing. 00;10;05;05 - 00;10;05;10 Speaker 3 A. 00;10;05;10 - 00;10;06;23 Speaker 2 Ghost. 00;10;06;25 - 00;10;11;13 Speaker 3 And I thought, What, what, what do I do? I thought, if. 00;10;11;13 - 00;10;12;14 Speaker 2 I stay here is going. 00;10;12;14 - 00;10;13;19 Speaker 3 To come get me. 00;10;13;21 - 00;10;20;00 Speaker 2 And, you know, it's probably a meat cleaver or something that is going to produce my physical body and the pieces. 00;10;20;03 - 00;10;21;05 Speaker 3 Of my. 00;10;21;07 - 00;10;29;19 Speaker 2 Head, you know, the end to a promising career. And what I hoped at that point would be a promising career. But anyway, so I thought, well, you'd better get. 00;10;29;19 - 00;10;33;16 Speaker 3 Out of it. So I didn't I. 00;10;33;16 - 00;10;38;07 Speaker 2 Knew that I couldn't turn round. I was so frightened. 00;10;38;09 - 00;10;41;27 Speaker 3 So I began to walk backwards. 00;10;41;29 - 00;10;50;04 Speaker 2 I and as I did so

and I. And I. And I, and I, I'd heard. 00;10;50;06 - 00;10;50;16 Speaker 3 I can't. 00;10;50;20 - 00;11;21;07 Speaker 2 From whom, but I've heard some advice once. You know, if you encounter the supernatural or an entity or whatever, the best thing to do is to welcome them with a blessing and then say a prayer. So I did. So I would describe myself in terms of faith. I would describe myself as a lapsed, non observant neo pagan polytheist. 00;11;21;09 - 00;11;23;22 Speaker 3 So I would have I. 00;11;23;27 - 00;11;26;04 Speaker 2 Was brought up in the Judeo-Christian. 00;11;26;04 - 00;11;26;29 Speaker 3 Tradition. 00;11;27;02 - 00;11;38;01 Speaker 2 And so I knew the Lord's Prayer and it was handy. So I began I began to recite the Lord's Prayer, which I think was a sensible thing to do. And I. 00;11;38;03 - 00;11;39;25 Speaker 3 I cried. 00;11;39;27 - 00;11;53;12 Speaker 2 And then as I took each step backwards, it became a little easier to to move and the fear began to subside. So then I thought I thought came into my. 00;11;53;12 - 00;11;55;00 Speaker 3 Head that you didn't. 00;11;55;00 - 00;12;06;23 Speaker 2 Drink anything, you didn't smoke anything. It didn't take any drugs. This is imagination. I'm going to go over the hill. So I began to walk forward to get another. No, I can't do that. 00;12;06;25 - 00;12;08;12 Speaker 3 So I. 00;12;08;12 - 00;12;13;11 Speaker 2 Did back away then at some speed, and after about ten steps, I was able to turn. 00;12;13;11 - 00;12;17;27 Speaker 3 Round and I ran. Well, I didn't run. I sprinted the. 00;12;17;27 - 00;12;19;25 Speaker 2 Way I had come through Parliament Hill. 00;12;19;25 - 00;12;20;23 Speaker 3 Fields. 00;12;20;26 - 00;12;23;07 Speaker 2 And until I came to the road again. 00;12;23;09 - 00;12;26;27 Speaker 3 And I thought, Wow, wow, I thought so. 00;12;26;27 - 00;12;48;01 Speaker 2 Then I had to walk the long way home another two miles, five anyway. So then two things happened the following day. One was that I got on my bicycle and I went back. That's a Parliament Hill fields in the daylight and it was absolutely no trace of that presence whatsoever. None at all. 00;12;48;07 - 00;12;49;24 Speaker 3 Except. 00;12;49;26 - 00;12;53;04 Speaker 2 In the meadow where I had seen the figure. 00;12;53;07 - 00;12;53;28 Speaker 3 About. 00;12;54;00 - 00;13;02;14 Speaker 2 Two, maybe 300 yards distant, there was a small stone plinth commemorating, I don't know what it was. 00;13;02;14 - 00;13;04;15 Speaker 3 Some Yeah. 00;13;04;17 - 00;13;12;14 Speaker 2 It was this stereo. It was that exact kind of shape, like a pyramid on a, on a whatever. 00;13;12;17 - 00;13;14;26 Speaker 3 But I. 00;13;14;29 - 00;13;27;06 Speaker 2 You know, it was sunlight and people were playing kids and it was great, you know, Nothing scary at all at the time. I was I had ventured into the netherworld called psychotherapy. 00;13;27;06 - 00;13;27;23 Speaker 3 Right. 00;13;27;25 - 00;13;40;25 Speaker 2 So the next time I had a session with my therapist, I said I told him what had happened and he listened patiently and I said, Well, so now you know, I am crazy, right? 00;13;40;27 - 00;13;42;08 Speaker 3 This is what And. 00;13;42;08 - 00;13;52;25 Speaker 2 This is what he said. He went, No, he said, because exactly the same thing happened to me. 00;13;52;27 - 00;13;53;22 Speaker 3 Very. 00;13;53;22 - 00;13;56;07 Speaker 1 Early on Parliament Hill or somewhere around. 00;13;56;10 - 00;14;01;20 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. 00;14;01;22 - 00;14;10;01 Speaker 1 Wait a minute, Bill. I'm so curious. When did you see the creature's face? While you heard the screaming? 00;14;10;03 - 00;14;21;26 Speaker 2 No, I didn't. It was. It was shrouded. It was kind of in shadow. And I've heard other stories about people seeing apparitions on Parliament. You know, I'm not sure if it's the same one. 00;14;21;28 - 00;14;22;12 Speaker 3 Or. 00;14;22;12 - 00;14;32;27 Speaker 2 If this particular apparition is a shapeshifter, you know, able to appear in different guises. But I'm pretty convinced there's something there. 00;14;32;29 - 00;14;34;25 Speaker 3 And, you know. 00;14;34;27 - 00;14;50;17 Speaker 1 I something like 15 episodes of this podcast thus far, and this is the third story that I have heard about a very large humanoid moving through the woods or a pastoral area. 00;14;50;20 - 00;14;51;06 Speaker 2 my gosh. 00;14;51;06 - 00;14;52;16 Speaker 3 Really? Yes. 00;14;52;16 - 00;15;14;29 Speaker 1 And I hadn't I didn't know that that these massive giant creatures and apparently it's cross cultural it's found in in a lot of indigenous according to someone Nicholas Paris, who shared a story like this, it is a cross-cultural phenomena. 00;15;15;02 - 00;15;16;24 Speaker 3 Good heavens. 00;15;16;27 - 00;15;20;05 Speaker 2 How extraordinary. Well, I that I didn't. 00;15;20;07 - 00;15;20;19 Speaker 3 Have no. 00;15;20;19 - 00;15;21;04 Speaker 2 Idea. 00;15;21;04 - 00;15;24;12 Speaker 3 Wow. Well, 00;15;24;14 - 00;15;30;02 Speaker 2 Yeah, So I tried to draw my therapist on what this was about, and he wouldn't say anything. 00;15;30;05 - 00;15;30;25 Speaker 3 You know. 00;15;30;25 - 00;15;34;28 Speaker 1 Really, He didn't really. He didn't offer a psychological explanation. 00;15;35;01 - 00;15;57;05 Speaker 2 He certainly didn't offer a psychological explanation for the supernatural one. I mean, I said something like, What do you suppose it was? You know, is this a spirit who wasn't able to complete the departure process or got stuck because of some trauma or, you know, he just I think nobody we talked to whether things like the weather. 00;15;57;07 - 00;16;30;07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes. I wonder I had a guest on recently who told me that. And again, this is the first I had heard of theories of Bigfoot being an interdimensional creature and the end and which is kind of like a very convenient way to explain away these creatures that are like the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot or Yeti who everybody will talk

about, but then we can't get any concrete evidence about it. 00;16;30;10 - 00;16;48;18 Speaker 1 So I it's that story. I feel like I can see it so clearly in my mind, the way that the way that you described it. So obviously the sense of of of the energy of it was terrifying. Was was something frightening. 00;16;48;20 - 00;17;02;01 Speaker 2 Yeah, it was under. But who knows? I mean, it may have been there may have been a piece of great good fortune. Who knows? It may have prevented me running into trouble if I had gone up Parliament Hill. 00;17;02;03 - 00;17;03;00 Speaker 3 At 1:00 in the. 00;17;03;00 - 00;17;07;03 Speaker 2 Morning, which isn't the most sensible thing to do in London these. 00;17;07;03 - 00;17;08;07 Speaker 3 Days. 00;17;08;09 - 00;17;25;08 Speaker 1 Or that's an interesting hypothesis, though. That could be because we usually think of if something intervenes for our benefit, it's usually something kind, but sometimes perhaps being so scared that you'll stop and turn around. 00;17;25;10 - 00;17;29;29 Speaker 2 I'd like to think that's a possibility. I mean, it did feel. 00;17;30;01 - 00;17;30;22 Speaker 3 It. 00;17;30;23 - 00;17;47;20 Speaker 2 Felt malevolent at the time, but I'm you know, I'm not sure that there was another ghostly encounter. This is a this is a benign one. The I was on. 00;17;47;22 - 00;17;54;07 Speaker 3 Tour in a it's a well, it. 00;17;54;07 - 00;17;57;19 Speaker 2 Was a very significant production to me. I'm not sure if it was the best. 00;17;57;19 - 00;17;58;11 Speaker 3 Piece of. 00;17;58;13 - 00;18;01;07 Speaker 2 Theater to hit the stage anyway, but it was Toad of Toad. 00;18;01;07 - 00;18;02;18 Speaker 3 All. 00;18;02;20 - 00;18;05;29 Speaker 2 And I was playing banjo. 00;18;06;01 - 00;18;07;02 Speaker 3 And. 00;18;07;04 - 00;18;21;25 Speaker 2 One night I did a sort of after hours cabaret in a in a theater in Bath in the west of England. The theater royal bath is famously ghosted by a butterfly. 00;18;21;27 - 00;18;24;10 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00;18;24;12 - 00;18;38;04 Speaker 2 And during the week that we were there and I was preparing this cabaret thing, two people told me they'd seen a butterfly backstage. And that was. Yeah, that was very nice. You know. 00;18;38;05 - 00;18;40;20 Speaker 3 It was kind of an affirmation. 00;18;40;22 - 00;18;42;19 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's lovely. 00;18;42;21 - 00;18;43;02 Speaker 3 Isn't it? 00;18;43;02 - 00;18;43;28 Speaker 2 Gorgeous. 00;18;44;00 - 00;18;45;21 Speaker 3 I love that. And, and. 00;18;45;21 - 00;18;50;04 Speaker 2 I actually there's another. 00;18;50;06 - 00;18;50;20 Speaker 3 This. 00;18;50;20 - 00;18;54;00 Speaker 2 Did I experiences. I don't think so. I was at the Old Vic in. 00;18;54;00 - 00;18;58;14 Speaker 3 London and. 00;18;58;16 - 00;19;03;18 Speaker 2 The Old Vic was famously run by an extremely determined. 00;19;03;20 - 00;19;04;15 Speaker 3 And. 00;19;04;17 - 00;19;21;00 Speaker 2 Unique individual called Lillian Bayliss, particularly between the

first and Second World War and then during the Second World War. And she was amazing. I mean, she would she would the actors would go to her and they would. 00;19;21;03 - 00;19;24;05 Speaker 3 Ask for a pay raise. She would get he. 00;19;24;06 - 00;19;25;18 Speaker 2 Would get down on her knees. 00;19;25;18 - 00;19;26;21 Speaker 3 And and then. 00;19;26;21 - 00;19;29;09 Speaker 2 She'd stand up and say, God says, no, dear. 00;19;29;12 - 00;19;31;07 Speaker 3 00;19;31;09 - 00;19;33;11 Speaker 1 Don't blame me. Blame the. 00;19;33;13 - 00;19;34;03 Speaker 3 Right. 00;19;34;05 - 00;19;44;11 Speaker 2 And then during the Second World War, when there were air raids in London, she would come out in the middle of the show and she says an air raid in progress. If any of you would like to leave, please do so. 00;19;44;11 - 00;19;45;22 Speaker 3 Now we. 00;19;45;22 - 00;19;46;21 Speaker 2 Are carrying. 00;19;46;21 - 00;19;50;29 Speaker 3 All. Yeah. 00;19;51;02 - 00;19;58;21 Speaker 2 And now that would be it. You know, we're not we're not succumbing to this intimidation. But the good. 00;19;58;22 - 00;19;59;13 Speaker 3 But. 00;19;59;15 - 00;20;12;05 Speaker 2 The exactly the ghost part of it was that she was famously eccentric for cooking sausages in one of the boxes of front of house. And it said, But every now and. 00;20;12;05 - 00;20;13;26 Speaker 3 Then you can get. 00;20;13;26 - 00;20;15;25 Speaker 2 The aroma. 00;20;15;28 - 00;20;17;05 Speaker 3 Of sausages. 00;20;17;11 - 00;20;19;12 Speaker 2 Sizzling quietly from. 00;20;19;12 - 00;20;23;26 Speaker 3 Box A You know that Lillian is. 00;20;23;26 - 00;20;25;08 Speaker 2 Looking in on this. 00;20;25;11 - 00;20;26;03 Speaker 3 00;20;26;05 - 00;20;39;25 Speaker 1 Well, let me ask you, I have to say, of course, I feel like there's nothing more potent than an empty theater between shows, right? When? 00;20;39;27 - 00;20;41;20 Speaker 3 you're absolutely right. 00;20;41;20 - 00;20;44;18 Speaker 2 Now that you mention it. Of course that's true. 00;20;44;19 - 00;20;46;00 Speaker 3 Yeah, It feels like. 00;20;46;00 - 00;21;14;13 Speaker 1 It feels like that pure potential that like waiting for something to happen that like, as if ghosts are going to kind of manifest out from out of nowhere and onto the stage, which of course you do for as many shows in a week as you do. Have you ever had uncanny experiences or strange feelings backstage on stage, in and around, in and around your work? 00;21;14;13 - 00;21;22;01 Speaker 1 And have you ever had trouble shaking off a character that maybe just didn't want to do? 00;21;22;03 - 00;21;24;15 Speaker 2 that's really interesting. Yes. 00;21;24;17 - 00;21;25;14 Speaker 3 00;21;25;17 - 00;21;39;10 Speaker 2 Well, of course that that potency of empty theater. You're absolutely right about that. I thought of that. And of course, the light, the the single, the stand with the single bulb is called the ghost Light. 00;21;39;12 - 00;21;43;14 Speaker 3 For a very good reason for.

00;21;43;16 - 00;22;10;02 Speaker 2 Well, after after the show is over and everything is cleared, they just leave a single light standing in the middle of the stage. So there's some illumination. You know, if if somebody stumbles in or locked in or whatever, there's some illumination in the darkness. So I don't know how spooky I did. You know, in most theaters, there's a a crossover so you can get from one side of the stage to the other. 00;22;10;05 - 00;22;13;25 Speaker 2 Sometimes it's behind, sometimes it's underneath. 00;22;13;27 - 00;22;14;06 Speaker 3 Was. 00;22;14;08 - 00;22;28;03 Speaker 2 In a strange theater. One's on I Need to cross over. And it was quite quick, so I was going quite fast and I, I bumped into someone and said, I'm so sorry, because you know what English people do that they bump into someone, then they apologize. 00;22;28;05 - 00;22;31;02 Speaker 3 So I'm so sorry. 00;22;31;04 - 00;22;33;20 Speaker 2 I didn't get an answer. Right. So I'm sorry. 00;22;33;22 - 00;22;34;19 Speaker 3 Nothing up. 00;22;34;21 - 00;22;39;23 Speaker 2 Your mind. Say something. Because I realized there was no one there. 00;22;39;26 - 00;22;42;07 Speaker 3 And so I just. 00;22;42;09 - 00;22;46;26 Speaker 2 I just felt silly. I could feel myself going red in the dark. 00;22;46;28 - 00;23;10;18 Speaker 1 I know that you've. You've done lots of dickens shows, and I just wondered if and to perform Dickens, especially around Christmas time, which for my money is the I think that Christmas, Hanukkah, the end of the year. I think it's way more spooky and haunted than than Halloween. I feel like Halloween just blows open the doors between worlds. 00;23;10;18 - 00;23;37;22 Speaker 1 And by the time we get to December 24th or New Year's Eve, all of the ghosts are really there, you know, because the families are together, our expectations are high. It's just such a a packed time of year. And so I'm curious if in in in playing and doing Dickens at that time of year, if you yourself ever felt sort of extra haunted. 00;23;37;25 - 00;24;05;09 Speaker 2 The answer is yes, actually, a couple of years ago I did a really you know, I've I mean, I've been in adaptations of Dickens novels A couple of years ago I did a a really an unusual and a rather marvelous solo adaptation of A Christmas Carol, but told from Jacob Marley's perspective, a written by an actor called Tom Moola. 00;24;05;09 - 00;24;17;18 Speaker 2 It's a really brilliant piece of work. Tom had played Scrooge in Chicago for, I think, seven or eight years consecutively. And, you know, being steeped in the story, then I thought, wouldn't it be interesting. 00;24;17;20 - 00;24;17;27 Speaker 3 If. 00;24;17;27 - 00;24;42;29 Speaker 2 We saw what Jacob Marley thought about it? So he wrote this piece of I can't remember how many characters, but a lot, you know, 20 characters or whatever. But early on in the in the in the act, one of the piece like scene three or four, you know, we're into it 10 minutes in or whatever, there's a vision of the underworld and it's quite grotesque. 00;24;43;01 - 00;24;43;13 Speaker 3 And it's. 00;24;43;13 - 00;24;44;08 Speaker 2 Peopled. 00;24;44;08 - 00;24;45;14 Speaker 3 By. 00;24;45;16 - 00;24;50;14 Speaker 2 Grotesques, you know, people with dripping flesh. 00;24;50;14 - 00;24;52;19 Speaker 3 Or people carrying. 00;24;52;19 - 00;24;57;24 Speaker 2 Chains of, you know, money that they cannot release themselves from. 00;24;58;01 - 00;24;58;10 Speaker 3 All. 00;24;58;10 - 00;25;01;29 Speaker 2 The kind of symbolic representations of. 00;25;02;02 - 00;25;02;09 Speaker 3 Of. 00;25;02;09 - 00;25;04;10 Speaker 2 The things that caught the spirit while. 00;25;04;10 - 00;25;05;24 Speaker 3 They were alive. 00;25;05;27 - 00;25;11;16 Speaker 2 And that was scary because it wasn't that I felt. 00;25;11;18 - 00;25;12;06 Speaker 3 Well, I did. 00;25;12;06 - 00;25;17;03 Speaker 2 I suppose, feel a little bit immersed in the sort of it was just me. 00;25;17;03 - 00;25;18;28 Speaker 3 Up there, you know, and. 00;25;19;00 - 00;25;34;00 Speaker 2 And it was like it was this risk of substance of some kind of slimy. It wasn't quite air and it wasn't quite water. And I you know, I had to visualize all these characters as I was describing them. 00;25;34;02 - 00;25;58;23 Speaker 1 They love it. They love it. So what every one of my favorite things and I love to ask every guest and I love this question. So I'm going to ask you is and there's no right or wrong answers about this, only your ideas. And and you're not just an actor. You you move in metaphysical circles as well, and you do astrology. 00;25;58;23 - 00;26;29;27 Speaker 1 And I know you from our shared love of tarot. So your creativity expands much further than than than just the the acting bit. But knowing what you know about what it feels like to be alive, where do you think we were before we were born and where? Colin, do you think you are going when you. 00;26;30;00 - 00;26;41;25 Speaker 2 fantastic. Our birth is but asleep and the forgetting the soul that rises with us. Our life's star. 00;26;41;28 - 00;26;42;06 Speaker 3 Has. 00;26;42;06 - 00;27;08;07 Speaker 2 Had elsewhere its setting and cometh from afar not in utter nakedness and not an entire forgetfulness, but trailing clouds of glory. Do we come from God who is our home? That's from a poem called Intimations of Immortality, based on recollections of early childhood. 00;27;08;09 - 00;27;09;13 Speaker 3 By the poet. 00;27;09;13 - 00;27;14;25 Speaker 2 Wordsworth. It was written in 1905. I think he was onto something. I do. 00;27;14;28 - 00;27;16;09 Speaker 3 The thing is. 00;27;16;11 - 00;27;19;29 Speaker 2 I think that. 00;27;20;02 - 00;27;24;00 Speaker 3 Well, first of all. 00;27;24;02 - 00;27;51;03 Speaker 2 You know, as with doing this composition, I'm remembering something which is that when I was young, I lost someone to cancer. A girl spit older than me. But she died. And on the way to the funeral, I wondered if

somehow she was still connected with the body. And I reason, I wondered, was that there had been suffering and pain. 00;27;51;06 - 00;27;52;07 Speaker 3 And I heard. 00;27;52;07 - 00;27;53;22 Speaker 2 Her voice. 00;27;53;25 - 00;27;54;10 Speaker 3 And she. 00;27;54;10 - 00;27;54;28 Speaker 2 Shouted. 00;27;55;03 - 00;27;56;26 Speaker 3 00;27;56;28 - 00;28;04;18 Speaker 2 And it was this wonderful happy. No. And we at once been given an acting exercise of Can you produce. 00;28;04;21 - 00;28;05;10 Speaker 3 A happy. 00;28;05;10 - 00;28;40;02 Speaker 2 No, a celebration, you know. So we were all going around, going in the anyway, I heard this now and I was just it was great. It was a lovely moment. And then, in fact, sometime later I had a visitation, which was very convincing. So I feel I've been immensely privileged because I think when it comes to things for which there is no empirical proof and of course astrology is amongst them. 00;28;40;04 - 00;28;48;04 Speaker 2 I mean, this is it's really a materialists nightmare astrology because there is no proof and there never will be. 00;28;48;06 - 00;28;49;22 Speaker 3 What there is. 00;28;49;25 - 00;29;00;25 Speaker 2 Is experience and there's untold amounts of that. If it works for you, if you've seen it work, then you know you can get somewhere with it. 00;29;01;01 - 00;29;01;25 Speaker 3 Well. 00;29;01;27 - 00;29;05;00 Speaker 2 But if you're one of these people who. 00;29;05;02 - 00;29;05;12 Speaker 3 You know, the. 00;29;05;12 - 00;29;36;11 Speaker 2 Received wisdom of scientific orthodoxy says astrology is nonsense. Well, you know, you don't know what you're missing anyway. The one of the books I read early on was Autobiography of a Yogi. Did you ever read it? You know it. It's by Paramahansa Yogananda, an Indian guru who came to America in the 1920s, I think 1920s, and founded an organization called the Self-Realization Fellowship. 00;29;36;11 - 00;29;58;19 Speaker 2 Well, that's the name. It goes by now. And it was a it's a most fantastic book. I mean, it's just a spiritual autobiography and he talks about his guru and meeting his guru, who was an astrologer, by the way, a Vedic variety. And one of the things I particularly loved about the book is that unusually. 00;29;58;22 - 00;29;58;29 Speaker 3 For. 00;29;58;29 - 00;30;00;14 Speaker 2 Books of esoteric. 00;30;00;17 - 00;30;01;05 Speaker 3 It does. 00;30;01;05 - 00;30;02;13 Speaker 2 Get down to the nitty. 00;30;02;13 - 00;30;03;11 Speaker 3 Gritty. 00;30;03;14 - 00;30;34;22 Speaker 2 And it does offer an answer about this precise question of where do we go when we die? And Yogananda still, if I remember correctly, and of course, I may be mistaken, but I think so finally, his guru kind of explains to him, once you achieve a certain level of development and of course, in the yogic system, it would be the ability to enter a Maha Samadhi at will. 00;30;34;24 - 00;30;50;13 Speaker 2 Maha Samadhi, you know, is enlightenment adjacent, what we

would think of and what is enlightenment? Enlightenment is unconditional love. What is enlightenment? The ability to forgive, you know, all, all these elevated values which are so hot. 00;30;50;15 - 00;30;51;07 Speaker 3 You know. 00;30;51;10 - 00;30;55;11 Speaker 2 Try unconditional love, and then someone treads on your toe. 00;30;55;14 - 00;30;56;00 Speaker 3 Well. 00;30;56;02 - 00;30;57;04 Speaker 2 Not so easy, right? 00;30;57;05 - 00;30;57;28 Speaker 3 I mean, with. 00;30;58;00 - 00;31;12;29 Speaker 2 We are all imperfect human beings, but according to Steve Israel and Yogananda, if as and when you do get there and then the other part of the Secret Eastern doctrine is that we're all going to get there in the end. 00;31;13;02 - 00;31;14;09 Speaker 3 After that. 00;31;14;11 - 00;31;15;15 Speaker 2 Who knows how many. 00;31;15;15 - 00;31;16;24 Speaker 3 Incarnations. 00;31;16;27 - 00;31;18;05 Speaker 2 Some of us are slower. 00;31;18;05 - 00;31;21;14 Speaker 3 Than others right? Then we go. 00;31;21;14 - 00;31;26;05 Speaker 2 We go on to the next realm. And, you know, there's a whole new set. 00;31;26;07 - 00;31;26;15 Speaker 3 Of. 00;31;26;15 - 00;31;27;12 Speaker 2 Playing cards. 00;31;27;12 - 00;31;28;22 Speaker 3 Or life. 00;31;28;22 - 00;31;37;20 Speaker 2 Tasks or whatever it is. My own personal view, as I said, the early experience of loss. 00;31;37;20 - 00;31;40;23 Speaker 3 And I. 00;31;40;25 - 00;32;02;25 Speaker 2 I came across a wonderful aphorism, and I think it was a Buddhist scripture, the Dharma pardner, which says we are surrounded by the blessed dead who are very close to us. But having said all that, it's very hard if you've been brought up in the Judeo-Christian tradition and if you've read, for example, the Divine Comedy done. 00;32;02;25 - 00;32;08;00 Speaker 3 To very hard to escape. 00;32;08;03 - 00;32;17;19 Speaker 2 The conclusion that where we go may very well depend on how we've lived. I mean. 00;32;17;22 - 00;32;19;09 Speaker 3 You know. 00;32;19;12 - 00;32;42;17 Speaker 2 Shakespeare's play measure for measure has something to say about that. This man sentenced to die, a young man, he says, I've got to die and go. We know not where to lie. In thrilling regions of thick ribbed ice. I mean, isn't that wonderful? That language can be scary. I mean, I mean, what Shakespeare play well done. I mean, the short answer is I don't know. 00;32;42;18 - 00;32;45;09 Speaker 2 Of course I don't know. How would I know? You know? Well, we're. 00;32;45;09 - 00;32;48;01 Speaker 3 Here as a sort of. 00;32;48;03 - 00;32;58;20 Speaker 2 But I think I'm I think I feel confidently hopeful. Again, You know, as Plato said, either we continue. 00;32;58;22 - 00;32;59;07 Speaker 3 Or. 00;32;59;08 - 00;33;12;23 Speaker 2 We don't, in which case it's like going to sleep. And who doesn't enjoy a good night's sleep, roomie? That's the one to quote, Really. I died a mineral, became a plant. I died a. 00;33;12;23 - 00;33;13;08 Speaker 3 Plum. 00;33;13;15 - 00;33;27;28 Speaker 2 And became an animal. I died an animal and became a human. I died a human and became an angel. When did I ever become less by dying. 00;33;28;00 - 00;33;29;07 Speaker 3 Or Walt. 00;33;29;07 - 00;33;40;08 Speaker 2 Whitman, which is also beautiful. I love this quote. He says, To die is commoner than anyone supposes and lucky. 00;33;40;10 - 00;33;41;13 Speaker 3 I suppose. 00;33;41;14 - 00;33;42;19 Speaker 2 It is. And I think. 00;33;42;21 - 00;33;42;27 Speaker 3 I. 00;33;42;27 - 00;33;44;05 Speaker 2 Mean, I think it's interesting. 00;33;44;05 - 00;33;45;24 Speaker 3 I mean. 00;33;45;27 - 00;33;48;20 Speaker 2 I feel like So I'm very glad you asked me that question. 00;33;48;22 - 00;33;49;14 Speaker 3 Not that I'm. 00;33;49;14 - 00;33;57;06 Speaker 2 Adding to the answer, but I'm certain the merits of the question because I'm 66. 00;33;57;08 - 00;33;58;21 Speaker 3 And. 00;33;58;23 - 00;34;01;23 Speaker 2 And that's a surprise to me. I never quite expected. 00;34;01;23 - 00;34;03;01 Speaker 3 To. 00;34;03;04 - 00;34;34;09 Speaker 2 To get to this, you know, venerable age should be an elder and respected by the young. That hasn't quite happened. But the other thing is that, well, Tolstoy, at the end of one of his short stories, Master Iron Man, talks about, you know, this man dies, passes into the afterlife, and he has a certain view of it. And Tolstoy's sentence at the end of and whether he was right or not, each of us will very soon know. 00;34;34;12 - 00;34;48;23 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it's such a temporary situation, isn't it? Being alive. We make this indescribable brief appearance here, you know, I mean, even in terms of, you know, temporal years, eighties, whatever it is. Yes. You get. 00;34;48;26 - 00;34;49;11 Speaker 3 But from the. 00;34;49;11 - 00;34;51;21 Speaker 2 Point of view of geological. 00;34;51;21 - 00;34;52;27 Speaker 3 Time. 00;34;52;29 - 00;35;09;29 Speaker 2 You know, it's a blip to say nothing of cosmological time. I mean, it's indescribably brief and it's such mystery to be here, you know, with all its attendant experiences and joys and sorrows and. 00;35;10;02 - 00;35;10;18 Speaker 3 What. 00;35;10;24 - 00;35;24;23 Speaker 2 Is it about? An astrologer friend of mine said, and I love this too, she said, Our lives are television for God. 00;35;24;25 - 00;35;30;20 Speaker 1 Well, I've put on a good show. I don't know about you. 00;35;30;22 - 00;35;31;05 Speaker 3 But. 00;35;31;07 - 00;35;56;22 Speaker 1 The morning, my day. Great. God works. It's so good. I love that. I love just listening to you talk to you. I think about like, God for you and God forbid, right? No pun intended. But like, if the end was to come tonight, it would have seemed all so quick. It would have seemed like it was all a dream your whole life. 00;35;56;22 - 00;36;07;24 Speaker 1 Everything you've you've been through. It is such. It is a blink of an eye. It's it's it's incredible to think about. I love and I love. I

love. I love to think about it. 00;36;07;26 - 00;36;08;21 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00;36;08;23 - 00;36;32;29 Speaker 2 I know. I think I mean, I'm quite I'm very interested in the whole deal. I've read a few books here and there. I mean, what do I know? But I've read the books that I've enjoyed. Raymond Moody is the Doctor. I think Life Before Life, life after life. You know, this whole idea I actually someone whose perspective on incarnation and in fictional. 00;36;32;29 - 00;36;33;22 Speaker 3 Form. 00;36;33;24 - 00;36;59;22 Speaker 2 That I very much enjoy is is the late great novelist Doris Lessing. And she wrote sort of psychological novels with a neo feminist. Well, not even neo, just a feminist flavor starting in the sixties and seventies. And then she wrote a quintet of novels which science fiction and, and yeah, really cool. And the first one is called She Kastor. 00;36;59;24 - 00;37;23;26 Speaker 2 And it's a kind of retelling of the Old Testament from a science fiction point of view. And I think it's I think it's a masterpiece. And then the second one in the series sort of develops on one. But, but she has this whole deal about, you know, this very challenging idea that's around that we choose the life we get. 00;37;23;27 - 00;37;27;12 Speaker 2 We we choose our parents and we, you know, we design it. 00;37;27;12 - 00;37;29;12 Speaker 3 In fact, you know. 00;37;29;15 - 00;37;32;25 Speaker 2 And that's that's a hugely challenging idea. 00;37;32;28 - 00;37;37;03 Speaker 3 You know, you think really, I. 00;37;37;03 - 00;37;40;04 Speaker 2 Signed up for this. 00;37;40;07 - 00;38;11;29 Speaker 1 But it's funny. It's funny. Colin I will say it's funny that you say that because my I have not had many ghostly experience is that I remember and I don't know if I've ever shared this with you before, but quite and I am very skeptical. I am here because I want to know if something's happening. I really want to know that it's actually happening, that it's not my imagination or but I was I was my husband and I were just starting to try and have a baby. 00;38;12;02 - 00;38;32;12 Speaker 1 And out of nowhere I was painting a bedroom. Out of nowhere, I felt energies in the room with me. There were three distinct energies and the one in the middle picked me and I went, I, I'm going to be pregnant. They just picked me. 00;38;32;14 - 00;38;33;15 Speaker 3 Wow. 00;38;33;17 - 00;39;01;00 Speaker 1 Which? And then they I mean, they like they appeared and then they left. And I didn't see them. I sensed them, but I knew what was was going on. I said to my husband, I said, I think it's going to happen quickly. And sure enough, it did. And to grapple with that, for myself to know that if that that that why would I why would any I mean, I can tell you why my daughter picked me. 00;39;01;00 - 00;39;15;16 Speaker 1 I mean, obviously, come on. But but I mean to take that is to be, you know, follow that through logically. It's wild. Yeah. Old one to think about. 00;39;15;18 -

00;39;16;28 Speaker 2 Certainly is, isn't it. 00;39;16;28 - 00;39;17;28 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00;39;18;00 - 00;39;51;17 Speaker 2 Well yeah, I mean you know, I think the idea or the doctrine of pre-birth existence was certainly very well known to Plato. His whole deal was that, you know, we each about each individual soul inhabits a star. And when ready to incarnate descends through each planetary realm to arrive here, the precise moment that corresponds with the life plan. 00;39;51;20 - 00;39;54;23 Speaker 2 So if you are interested. 00;39;54;26 - 00;39;56;00 Speaker 3 In following up on that. 00;39;56;02 - 00;39;56;16 Speaker 2 Idea. 00;39;56;22 - 00;39;57;04 Speaker 3 A very. 00;39;57;04 - 00;40;02;23 Speaker 2 Good first step would be to find an astrologer and tell him your birthday. 00;40;02;25 - 00;40;04;26 Speaker 1 And where could someone find a good astrologer? 00;40;04;26 - 00;40;08;14 Speaker 3 Colleen Well, gosh. 00;40;08;17 - 00;40;12;23 Speaker 2 Interesting. Well, you could start at pleasant Pleasantville astrology dot. 00;40;12;23 - 00;40;14;14 Speaker 3 Com. 00;40;14;17 - 00;40;19;05 Speaker 2 And if you hit the about page I think there's a sort of introductory video that gives you some. 00;40;19;05 - 00;40;20;27 Speaker 3 Idea of. 00;40;20;28 - 00;40;33;12 Speaker 2 Of what we're after. The astrology is much misunderstood and much misrepresented. It's really about more than is this a good day to go shopping. 00;40;33;15 - 00;40;35;05 Speaker 3 You should. 00;40;35;07 - 00;40;42;10 Speaker 2 Ultimately it's a wonderfully sophisticated. 00;40;42;13 - 00;40;45;24 Speaker 3 Tool for self-awareness. 00;40;45;24 - 00;40;58;13 Speaker 2 And self knowledge and exploration, I think. And it's one of those things bit bit like acting really, that lets you know you're alive, which is a. 00;40;58;16 - 00;40;58;25 Speaker 3 Symbol. 00;40;58;25 - 00;40;59;05 Speaker 2 I think a. 00;40;59;05 - 00;41;00;26 Speaker 3 Good thing. 00;41;00;29 - 00;41;05;29 Speaker 1 Do you offer long distance reading in classes as well? 00;41;06;01 - 00;41;11;16 Speaker 2 absolutely, yeah. I mean, what would we all do without Zoom that we've become so. 00;41;11;19 - 00;41;12;05 Speaker 3 Fascinated. 00;41;12;05 - 00;41;15;08 Speaker 2 Certainly worldwide and totally, of. 00;41;15;08 - 00;41;18;16 Speaker 3 Course. Yeah. 00;41;18;18 - 00;41;35;02 Speaker 1 Went well. I can't thank you enough for coming on Michael. Stories by the fire. It's been I love to hang out with you any and all times, but I feel like it's an extra special joy for me to share you with the world. So they can also. 00;41;35;03 - 00;41;37;00 Speaker 3 Wonder how. 00;41;37;03 - 00;41;41;05 Speaker 2 So I said, Thank you so much. What fun. 00;41;41;07 - 00;42;23;18 Speaker 1 Thank you so much for being part of Ghost Stories by the Fire. Do you have a spooky story, near-death experience or supernatural happening you'd like to share? I'd love to hear it. Submit your story to Sasha Graham dot com with ghost stories by the fire in the subject line. You might just wind up on this podcast and if you want to support it and keep the ghost stories coming, head on over to Sasha Graham dot com to check out my books and tarot decks which are available for purchase at your favorite bookseller, The Ghost Stories by the Fire theme song is titled Lovely from the original motion picture score of The Deeper You Dig, a 00;42;23;18 - 00;48;22;29 Speaker 1 film about the lengths a mother will go to to find her daughter's killer. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I'm saving you a seat at the fire. 00;48;23;02 - 00;48;45;22 Unknown You come to me when I'm lonely, I take your hand. We go home. You cover me with your love. Hey, where you with my love. 00;48;45;24 - 00;49;19;10 Speaker 1 Many fears stem from deep inside the bottomless well of our subconscious and inner worlds. But for today's guest, his favorite sort of terror is the invigorating fear rushing through your body that reminds you that you are alive. Colin MC Fellaini is a British Australian actor and astrologer. As a performer, he's worked on Broadway, off-Broadway and the National Theater in London, in China. 00;49;19;10 - 00;49;55;27 Speaker 1 He taught Shakespeare, and his books and blog are available at Macmillan Mi.com. In today's episode, he shares the story of ghostly sausages, haunted butterflies, the potency of an empty theater, and a harrowing story about a mysterious apparition on Parliament Hill in the UK. So pour yourself a nice cup of tea or something stronger. Settle in and get cozy because I'm your host, Sasha Graham. 00;49;55;29 - 00;49;58;29 Speaker 1 And this is Ghost Stories. 00;49;59;02 - 00;50;09;00 Unknown My name? Lovely, lovely. 00;50;09;02 - 00;50;12;25 Speaker 1 Colin. Thank you so much for joining me. 00;50;12;27 - 00;50;15;26 Speaker 2 Sasha, thank you very much for having me. 00;50;15;28 - 00;50;17;15 Speaker 3 Great games. 00;50;17;17 - 00;50;30;19 Speaker 1 I'm so excited to head to here because I have heard you tell stories at my live ghost stories by the fire fans. I'd love it if you'd share a spooky story right now. 00;50;30;21 - 00;50;58;22 Speaker 2 my gosh. Yes. Well, I was thinking about this. One of the questions I've heard you ask previous guests is, you know, what's the most frightened you've ever been? And I've been thinking about different kinds of fear. And as you know, my day job is that I'm an actor and I've been an actor for a long time, about 40 years, I think. 00;50;58;25 - 00;51;01;21 Speaker 2 I always love to stay in any kind of public forum. I'm an. 00;51;01;21 - 00;51;02;23 Speaker 3 Actor and the. 00;51;02;23 - 00;51;04;25 Speaker 2 Chances are you've never heard of. 00;51;04;25 - 00;51;06;20 Speaker 3 Me. 00;51;06;22 - 00;51;28;01 Speaker 2 And the reason for that is that almost all my work has been on stage, not screen. And I've worked from northern Australia. I'm not northern Scotland to southern Australia and from Jerusalem to Beijing

and lots of places in between, including Broadway and off-Broadway and the National Theater here. And that I get around and in my line they pay you in fun. 00;51;28;03 - 00;51;28;27 Speaker 3 Lovely. 00;51;28;29 - 00;51;41;18 Speaker 2 So the reason I mention it is that there's a specific kind of fear that goes with performing the anxiety of of a first night. Usually the first public. 00;51;41;18 - 00;51;43;22 Speaker 3 Performance. 00;51;43;24 - 00;51;46;11 Speaker 2 Is its own special brand of. 00;51;46;13 - 00;51;47;14 Speaker 3 Of of. 00;51;47;14 - 00;51;54;22 Speaker 2 Fear. And depending on the quality of the production that you're in, you know, can vary from. 00;51;54;24 - 00;51;54;29 Speaker 3 A. 00;51;54;29 - 00;51;59;17 Speaker 2 Sort of an angrier booth frisson of. 00;51;59;18 - 00;52;00;17 Speaker 3 Of. 00;52;00;19 - 00;52;03;24 Speaker 2 Of the nervous system hyper stimulated. 00;52;03;26 - 00;52;04;09 Speaker 3 Not. 00;52;04;09 - 00;52;07;17 Speaker 2 Unlike the potent sensation of. 00;52;07;17 - 00;52;10;09 Speaker 3 Being in love. Right. 00;52;10;11 - 00;52;12;18 Speaker 2 Or at the other end. 00;52;12;20 - 00;52;13;18 Speaker 3 It can be. 00;52;13;18 - 00;52;17;17 Speaker 2 The kind of hyper anxiety. 00;52;17;20 - 00;52;18;11 Speaker 3 Fueled. 00;52;18;11 - 00;52;27;26 Speaker 2 By an unholy mix of caffeine, possibly alcohol, maybe nicotine, the sort of anxiety that you would come across. 00;52;27;29 - 00;52;28;10 Speaker 3 In. 00;52;28;15 - 00;52;41;05 Speaker 2 One of the darker short stories by Edgar Allan Poe, for example, or somewhere in between. So that's its own very specific brand of fear. And, you know, it's. 00;52;41;07 - 00;52;41;14 Speaker 3 You. 00;52;41;14 - 00;52;44;01 Speaker 2 Can it's a bit addictive, to be honest. 00;52;44;03 - 00;52;47;11 Speaker 1 I was just going to ask you because it sounds quite addictive. 00;52;47;13 - 00;52;54;24 Speaker 2 It's what it does is that it it brings a bit of color into a drab, gray existence, you know what I mean? 00;52;54;26 - 00;52;55;25 Speaker 3 So when. 00;52;55;25 - 00;52;57;26 Speaker 2 You are in hyper stimulated states like. 00;52;57;26 - 00;52;58;11 Speaker 3 That, at. 00;52;58;11 - 00;52;59;14 Speaker 2 Least you know you're. 00;52;59;14 - 00;53;05;13 Speaker 3 Alive. Okay, so there's that was the. 00;53;05;13 - 00;53;21;21 Speaker 2 Sort of quotidian and rather unwelcoming anxiety that you can get when, for example, you might get an audit notice from the IRS and you go, God, where are the receipts? You know, that kind of thing. 00;53;21;24 - 00;53;22;24 Speaker 3 In fact, I recall. 00;53;22;25 - 00;53;42;02 Speaker 2 Is it's the first you know, I'm not from here. I mean, I know we're in virtual space, but I'm not from America. Can you tell listeners I was born a long way away, but I've been in for more than a quarter of a century and I'm just getting used to it. But the first year I was here, I was audited by the IRS. 00;53;42;02 - 00;53;52;11 Speaker 2 I thought

it was an unfriendly move on their part. Anyway, to my mild surprise, I was able to find all the documents and they gave me a refund of $11. 00;53;52;14 - 00;53;57;28 Speaker 3 So I thought real. 00;53;58;01 - 00;54;11;00 Speaker 2 Genuine verge of losing control of the bodily functions. Tara I think I've only experienced that. 00;54;11;00 - 00;54;12;17 Speaker 3 Once in. 00;54;12;17 - 00;54;13;10 Speaker 2 My life, I. 00;54;13;10 - 00;54;14;27 Speaker 3 Think. 00;54;14;29 - 00;54;37;05 Speaker 2 Is that right? Yeah, I think it is. I mean, of this level and I'll tell you about it. So I was I was about I was in my twenties, in my late twenties, I was living in London and in northwest London there's a most wonderful public space. It's called Hampstead. 00;54;37;07 - 00;54;38;10 Speaker 3 Heath. 00;54;38;12 - 00;54;59;06 Speaker 2 And it's very famous. It's 700 or 800 acres of semi wild managed woodland. It's really beautiful and it's famous because there's a hill at the southern end of it called Parliament Hill. And the reason it's called Parliament Hill is that if you were traveling to London from the north. 00;54;59;08 - 00;54;59;21 Speaker 3 In. 00;54;59;24 - 00;55;09;10 Speaker 2 The pre-modern days, it was the first place from which you could see the Houses of Parliament, therefore called Parliament Hill. 00;55;09;12 - 00;55;11;04 Speaker 3 Right. 00;55;11;07 - 00;55;42;14 Speaker 2 Anyway, it's, it's of course mostly inhabited now by drug dealers and Russian oligarchs, because the only people who can afford it, it's it's very it's absolute. But in the old days it used to be sort of tweedy and crumbly. And, you know, it was a sort of British tea shop type of vibe on the Heath is immensely beautiful and it's full of nature and wildlife and there are ponds where you can go swimming and things like that. 00;55;42;16 - 00;55;46;10 Speaker 2 Anyway, I was living there and not far from. 00;55;46;10 - 00;55;47;03 Speaker 3 There. 00;55;47;06 - 00;56;06;18 Speaker 2 And I don't know where I'd been, but it was late at night. It was, it was midnight or maybe half an hour later than midnight. And I was walking home and there's I thought, I'll go across a Parliament Hill. So from the east to the west side, I'll go, I'll cut across Parliament Hill, feel. 00;56;06;18 - 00;56;07;04 Speaker 3 And. 00;56;07;07 - 00;56;15;23 Speaker 2 Then I'll go up the hill and down the other side, and then that'll save me two miles. Okay. Well, I was in a sensitive condition anyway because. 00;56;15;24 - 00;56;17;00 Speaker 3 I just. 00;56;17;02 - 00;56;18;27 Speaker 2 Been through a breakup, you know, one of. 00;56;18;27 - 00;56;19;29 Speaker 3 Those. 00;56;20;01 - 00;56;33;23 Speaker 2 Funny how it hurts so much when you're a kids, you know, I suppose you get used to it as you go older. Anyway, I was pretty devastated. Had all the symptoms, all that stuff. You know, I was writing poetry about the other person, that kind of thing. 00;56;33;26 - 00;56;35;15 Speaker 3 And it.

00;56;35;17 - 00;57;03;22 Speaker 2 It was a mr. Night. And in the slope up to Parliament Hill, there are some there's a place, what it's called Parliament Hill Fields, because there are sort of meadows adjacent. And as I walked up the fairly gentle slope, the mist seemed to gather and I heard some yelling in the distance, which is not unusual. In Hampstead Heath. 00;57;03;22 - 00;57;08;00 Speaker 2 People used to go on there and, you know, have a picnic or. 00;57;08;03 - 00;57;09;08 Speaker 3 You know. 00;57;09;11 - 00;57;22;28 Speaker 2 Whatever. After hours. It was it wasn't densely populated, But occasionally, you know, kids having families or whatever, nothing madly serious and not hugely dangerous either. But then. 00;57;23;01 - 00;57;23;11 Speaker 3 This. 00;57;23;11 - 00;57;32;01 Speaker 2 Is what happened. The slope began to get a bit steeper. And I, I suddenly looked to my right. 00;57;32;03 - 00;57;32;16 Speaker 3 And in. 00;57;32;16 - 00;57;49;29 Speaker 2 The distance, which I now estimate of about maybe 300 yards, so quite a long way away. I saw a large figure, which I estimated to be about 13 feet high. 00;57;50;01 - 00;57;52;15 Speaker 3 And I and I kind of looked like. 00;57;52;17 - 00;57;52;26 Speaker 2 I thought. 00;57;53;01 - 00;57;55;17 Speaker 3 What did I see? No, no, I. 00;57;55;18 - 00;58;01;04 Speaker 2 Didn't see that. I'm imagining something. So I stepped on again. Now I looked again to my right. This time. 00;58;01;07 - 00;58;01;09 Speaker 3 It. 00;58;01;13 - 00;58;02;23 Speaker 2 Was a bit closer, maybe two. 00;58;02;23 - 00;58;04;12 Speaker 3 Hundred yards, and it was. 00;58;04;12 - 00;58;13;03 Speaker 2 Still 13 feet high. As tall is about, you know, twice the height of a of a six foot guy. And it was shrouded in a. 00;58;13;05 - 00;58;16;23 Speaker 3 White cowl like a white hood and. 00;58;16;23 - 00;58;27;20 Speaker 2 Like a monk's robe. And I couldn't see it. I couldn't see its feet. I couldn't see it moving. But it was approaching me. 00;58;27;22 - 00;58;28;09 Speaker 3 And. 00;58;28;12 - 00;58;49;24 Speaker 2 It was approaching me with there's a phrase in a book by George McDonald, which tells a similarly spooky episode and the phrases with a speedy approach but a delayed arrival. So it was rushing towards me, but not getting much closer. Just a little bit closer. But the huge speed. 00;58;49;26 - 00;58;50;03 Speaker 3 And. 00;58;50;03 - 00;58;51;13 Speaker 2 Here's the thing. 00;58;51;15 - 00;58;56;01 Speaker 3 It was screaming. Yes. 00;58;56;03 - 00;59;06;05 Speaker 2 It was screaming and it was like the screaming psycho. You know, in that film, when Anthony Perkins stabs them, you know, whatever. And I was right. 00;59;06;05 - 00;59;07;29 Speaker 3 Round it was I. 00;59;07;29 - 00;59;25;02 Speaker 2 Actually saw that film in a cinema in London until the Paris Pullman. And the air was so thick with cannabis smoke you couldn't see the No smoking signs. So you can imagine when that scream happened, Well, it was like that. 00;59;25;05 - 00;59;27;26 Speaker 3 But more. 00;59;27;28 - 00;59;29;18 Speaker 2 And suddenly. 00;59;29;21 - 00;59;30;25 Speaker 3 I was I. 00;59;30;25 - 00;59;34;08 Speaker 2 Was absolutely terrified. 00;59;34;10 - 00;59;34;28 Speaker 3 And I still. 00;59;34;28 - 00;59;37;03 Speaker 2 Didn't believe what I was seeing. 00;59;37;05 - 00;59;37;13 Speaker 3 I thought. 00;59;37;13 - 00;59;50;17 Speaker 2 This is completely impossible. So I took another step forward. But then here's the thing. Each step became like moving through soup. It became harder and. 00;59;50;17 - 00;59;52;22 Speaker 3 Harder to progress. 00;59;52;25 - 01;00;06;11 Speaker 2 And I looked over to my right and the figure was, was there. Now and still rushing. And the the scream had become louder. And then I accepted that I was in fact seeing. 01;00;06;13 - 01;00;06;25 Speaker 3 A. 01;00;06;25 - 01;00;08;06 Speaker 2 Ghost. 01;00;08;09 - 01;00;12;15 Speaker 3 And I thought, what, what, what do I do? So I thought. 01;00;12;21 - 01;00;30;12 Speaker 2 If I stay here, kind of come get me. And, you know, it's probably got a meat cleaver or something that it's going to produce and hack my physical body into pieces. I might of my head, you know, the end to a promising career. And what I hoped at that point would be a promising career. But anyway, so I thought, well. 01;00;30;14 - 01;00;35;00 Speaker 3 You'd better get out of it. So I didn't I. 01;00;35;00 - 01;00;38;01 Speaker 2 Knew that I, I couldn't turn round. I was so. 01;00;38;01 - 01;00;45;12 Speaker 3 Frightened. So I began to walk backwards. 01;00;45;14 - 01;00;51;17 Speaker 2 And as I did so and I. And I. And I, and I, I'd heard. 01;00;51;20 - 01;00;51;29 Speaker 3 I can't. 01;00;52;04 - 01;01;06;08 Speaker 2 From whom, but I've heard some advice once, you know, if you encountered a supernatural or an entity or whatever, the best thing to do is to welcome them with a blessing. 01;01;06;10 - 01;01;07;22 Speaker 3 And. 01;01;07;25 - 01;01;22;22 Speaker 2 And then say a prayer. So I did. So I would describe myself in terms of faith. I would describe myself as a lapsed, non observant neo pagan polytheist bokor. 01;01;22;29 - 01;01;25;09 Speaker 3 So I. 01;01;25;11 - 01;01;27;18 Speaker 2 Was brought up in the Judeo-Christian. 01;01;27;18 - 01;01;28;13 Speaker 3 Tradition. 01;01;28;16 - 01;01;39;15 Speaker 2 And so I knew the Lord's Prayer and it was handy. So I began I began to recite the Lord's Prayer, which I think was a sensible thing to do. And I. 01;01;39;17 - 01;01;41;09 Speaker 3 I cried. 01;01;41;11 - 01;02;04;12 Speaker 2 And then as I took each step backwards, it became a little easier to, to move and the fear began to subside. So then I thought I thought came into my head. You didn't drink anything, you didn't smoke anything, You didn't take any drugs. This is imagination. I'm going to go over the hill. So I began to walk forward again. 01;02;04;15 - 01;02;06;20 Speaker 3 And. 01;02;06;22 - 01;02;07;21

Speaker 2 No, I can't do. 01;02;07;21 - 01;02;08;06 Speaker 3 That. 01;02;08;08 - 01;02;15;04 Speaker 2 So I did back away then at some speed, and after about ten steps, I was able to turn round. 01;02;15;04 - 01;02;20;19 Speaker 3 And I ran. Well, I didn't run. I sprinted the way I had come through. 01;02;20;19 - 01;02;24;21 Speaker 2 Parliament Hill fields. And until I came to the road again. 01;02;24;24 - 01;02;28;11 Speaker 3 And I thought, Wow, wow, I thought so. 01;02;28;11 - 01;02;49;14 Speaker 2 Then I had to walk the long way home another two miles, five anyway. So then two things happened the following day. One was that I got on my bicycle and I went back to Parliament Hill fields in the daylight. There was absolutely no trace of that presence whatsoever. None at all. 01;02;49;21 - 01;02;51;07 Speaker 3 Except. 01;02;51;09 - 01;02;53;24 Speaker 2 In the meadow where I had seen the. 01;02;53;24 - 01;02;54;18 Speaker 3 Figure. 01;02;54;20 - 01;03;05;06 Speaker 2 About two, maybe 300 yards distant, there was a small stone plinth commemorating, I don't know what it was. 01;03;05;08 - 01;03;05;29 Speaker 3 Yeah. 01;03;06;01 - 01;03;22;22 Speaker 2 It was the slips. There were it was that exact kind of shape, like a pyramid on a on a whatever. But, you know, it was sunlight. People were playing cards and it was great, you know, nothing scary at all. 01;03;22;24 - 01;03;23;07 Speaker 3 At the. 01;03;23;07 - 01;03;28;19 Speaker 2 Time I was I had ventured into the netherworld called psychotherapy. 01;03;28;19 - 01;03;29;07 Speaker 3 Right. 01;03;29;10 - 01;03;42;09 Speaker 2 So the next time I had a session with my therapist, I said to I told him what had happened and he listened patiently and I said, Well, so now you know, I am crazy, right? 01;03;42;12 - 01;03;43;13 Speaker 3 This is what. 01;03;43;16 - 01;03;54;09 Speaker 2 And this is what he said. He went, No, he said, because exactly the same thing happened to me. 01;03;54;11 - 01;03;55;10 Speaker 3 Very early. 01;03;55;10 - 01;03;57;20 Speaker 1 On Parliament Hill or somewhere around. 01;03;57;23 - 01;04;00;18 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01;04;00;20 - 01;04;11;14 Speaker 1 Well, wait a minute, Bill. I'm so curious. When did you see the creature's face? While you heard the screaming? 01;04;11;17 - 01;04;32;04 Speaker 2 No, I didn't. It was. It was shrouded. It was kind of in shadow. And I've heard other stories about people seeing apparitions on Parliament. You know, I'm not sure if it's the same one or if this particular apparition is a shapeshifter, you know, and able to appear in different guises. But I'm pretty convinced there's something. 01;04;32;04 - 01;04;36;02 Speaker 3 That, you know. 01;04;36;04 - 01;04;52;01 Speaker 1 And I something like 15 episodes of this podcast thus far. And this is the third story that I have heard about a very large humanoid moving through the woods or a pastoral area. 01;04;52;03 - 01;04;53;15 Speaker 2 my gosh. Really? 01;04;53;17 - 01;05;16;14 Speaker 1 Yes. And I hadn't I didn't know that that these massive giant creatures and apparently it's cross-cultural. It's found in in a lot of indigenous, according to someone, Nicholas Ferris, who shared a story like this, it is a cross-cultural phenomena. 01;05;16;16 - 01;05;18;08 Speaker 3 Good heavens. 01;05;18;11 - 01;05;24;00 Speaker 2 How extraordinary. When I that I didn't have no idea. Wow. 01;05;24;03 - 01;05;26;13 Speaker 3 Well, yeah. 01;05;26;15 - 01;05;31;24 Speaker 2 So I tried to draw my therapist on what this was about, and he wouldn't say anything. 01;05;31;26 - 01;05;32;09 Speaker 3 You know. 01;05;32;09 - 01;05;36;12 Speaker 1 Really, he didn't. He didn't offer a psychological explanation. 01;05;36;15 - 01;05;58;25 Speaker 2 He certainly didn't offer a psychological explanation or a very supernatural one. I mean, I said something like, What do you suppose it was? You know, is this a spirit who wasn't able to complete the departure process or got stuck because of some trauma or, you know, he just I think, you know, we talked about other things like the weather. 01;05;58;27 - 01;06;31;21 Speaker 1 Yes. I wonder I had a guest on recently who told me that. And again, this is the first I had heard of theories of Bigfoot being an interdimensional creature and the end and which is kind of like a very convenient way to explain away these creatures that are like the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot or Yeti, who everybody will talk about, but then we can't get any concrete evidence about it. 01;06;31;23 - 01;06;50;02 Speaker 1 So I it's that story. I feel like I can see it so clearly in my mind, the way that the way that you described it. So obviously the sense of of of the energy of it was terrifying. Was was something frightening. 01;06;50;04 - 01;07;02;22 Speaker 2 Yeah, it was under attack. But who knows? I mean, it may have been there may have been a piece of great good fortune. Who knows? It may have prevented me running into trouble if I had gone up Parliament. 01;07;02;22 - 01;07;04;11 Speaker 3 Hill at 1:00 in. 01;07;04;11 - 01;07;08;16 Speaker 2 The morning, which isn't the most sensible thing to do in London these. 01;07;08;16 - 01;07;09;20 Speaker 3 Days. 01;07;09;22 - 01;07;26;22 Speaker 1 Or that's an interesting hypothesis, though, that could we usually think of if something intervenes for our benefit, it's usually something kind, but sometimes perhaps being so scared that you'll stop and turn around. 01;07;26;24 - 01;07;31;12 Speaker 2 I'd like to think that's a possibility. I mean, it did feel. 01;07;31;14 - 01;07;32;08 Speaker 3 It. 01;07;32;08 - 01;07;42;19 Speaker 2 Felt malevolent at the time, but I'm you know, I'm not sure that there was another ghostly encounter. 01;07;42;21 - 01;07;42;29 Speaker 3 This. 01;07;42;29 - 01;07;49;03 Speaker 2 Is a this is a benign one. The I was on. 01;07;49;05 - 01;07;55;08 Speaker 3 Tour in a it's a. 01;07;55;11 - 01;07;59;11 Speaker 2 Well, it was a very significant production to me.

I'm not sure if it was the best piece. 01;07;59;11 - 01;08;00;11 Speaker 3 Of theater. 01;08;00;11 - 01;08;02;20 Speaker 2 To hit the stage anyway, but it was Toad of Toad. 01;08;02;20 - 01;08;04;15 Speaker 3 Hall and. 01;08;04;20 - 01;08;23;08 Speaker 2 I was playing banjo. And one night I did the sort of after hours, the cabaret in a in a theater in Bath in the west of England. The theater royal bath is famously ghosted by a butterfly. 01;08;23;11 - 01;08;25;24 Speaker 3 Yeah. 01;08;25;26 - 01;08;40;02 Speaker 2 And during the week that we were there and I was preparing this cabaret thing, two people told me they'd seen a butterfly backstage. And that was. Yeah, that was very nice. You know, I was kind of. 01;08;40;02 - 01;08;42;03 Speaker 3 I from affirmation. 01;08;42;05 - 01;08;44;03 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's lovely. 01;08;44;06 - 01;08;45;26 Speaker 2 Isn't it? Gorgeous. I love. 01;08;45;26 - 01;08;46;14 Speaker 3 That. 01;08;46;17 - 01;08;51;18 Speaker 2 And, and I actually there's another. 01;08;51;20 - 01;08;52;04 Speaker 3 This. 01;08;52;04 - 01;08;55;14 Speaker 2 Did I experiences. I don't think so. I was at the Old Vic in. 01;08;55;14 - 01;08;59;28 Speaker 3 London and. 01;09;00;02 - 01;09;05;02 Speaker 2 The Old Vic was famously run by an extremely determined. 01;09;05;04 - 01;09;05;28 Speaker 3 And. 01;09;06;00 - 01;09;21;14 Speaker 2 Unique individual called Lillian Bayliss, particularly between the first and Second World War and then during the Second World War. And she was amazing. I mean, she would she would the actors would go to her and they. 01;09;21;14 - 01;09;25;19 Speaker 3 Would ask for a pay raise. She would get he. 01;09;25;19 - 01;09;27;02 Speaker 2 Would get down on her knees. 01;09;27;02 - 01;09;28;05 Speaker 3 And and then. 01;09;28;05 - 01;09;32;21 Speaker 2 She'd stand up and say, God says no, do. 01;09;32;23 - 01;09;34;25 Speaker 1 Don't blame me, blame the Lord. 01;09;34;27 - 01;09;37;21 Speaker 3 Right. And then during. 01;09;37;21 - 01;09;45;24 Speaker 2 The Second World War, when there were air raids in London, she would come out in the middle of the show and she says an air raid in progress. If any of you would like to leave, please do so. 01;09;45;24 - 01;09;47;13 Speaker 3 Now we are. 01;09;47;13 - 01;09;48;04 Speaker 2 Carrying. 01;09;48;04 - 01;09;54;06 Speaker 3 All. Yeah, and now that would be it. 01;09;54;06 - 01;10;00;26 Speaker 2 You know, we're not we're not succumbing to this intimidation. But the. 01;10;00;28 - 01;10;01;03 Speaker 3 The. 01;10;01;06 - 01;10;13;17 Speaker 2 Exactly the good part of it was that she was famously eccentric for cooking sausages in one of the boxes of front of house and it served. But every now and. 01;10;13;17 - 01;10;15;10 Speaker 3 Then you can get. 01;10;15;10 - 01;10;17;08 Speaker 2 The aroma. 01;10;17;11 - 01;10;18;18 Speaker 3 Of sausages. 01;10;18;25 - 01;10;20;25 Speaker 2 Sizzling quietly from. 01;10;20;25 - 01;10;25;21 Speaker 3 Box A you know that Lillian is looking. 01;10;25;21 - 01;10;27;21 Speaker 2 In on this. 01;10;27;24 - 01;10;41;08 Speaker 1 Well let me ask you, I have to say, of course, I feel like there's nothing more potent than an empty theater between shows, right? When? 01;10;41;10 - 01;10;43;03 Speaker 3 you're absolutely right. 01;10;43;03 - 01;10;46;02 Speaker 2 Now that you mention it. Of course that's true. 01;10;46;03 - 01;10;46;17 Speaker 3 Yeah, It. 01;10;46;18 - 01;11;15;27 Speaker 1 Feels like it feels like pure that. Like waiting for something to happen that like, as if ghosts are going to kind of manifest out from out of nowhere and the stage, which of course, you do for as many shows in a week as you do. Have you ever had uncanny experiences or strange feelings backstage on stage, in and around, in and around your work? 01;11;15;27 - 01;11;23;14 Speaker 1 And have you ever had trouble shaking off a character that maybe just didn't want to do? 01;11;23;17 - 01;11;42;24 Speaker 2 that's really interesting. Yes. Well, of course, that that potency of empty theater. You're absolutely right about that. I quite thought of that. And of course, the light, the the single the stand with the single bulb is called the ghost light. 01;11;42;26 - 01;11;44;27 Speaker 3 And very good reporting. 01;11;44;29 - 01;12;11;16 Speaker 2 Well, after after the show is over and everything is cleared, they just leave a single light standing in the middle of the stage. So there's some illumination. You know, if if somebody stumbles in or locked in or whatever, there's some illumination in the darkness. So I don't know how spooky I did. You know, in most theaters, there's a crossover so you can get from one side of the stage to the other. 01;12;11;18 - 01;12;20;15 Speaker 2 Sometimes it's behind, sometimes it's underneath. In a strange theater, one's on, I need to cross over. And it was quite quick, so I was going quite fast. 01;12;20;15 - 01;12;22;05 Speaker 3 And I. 01;12;22;07 - 01;12;27;04 Speaker 2 Bumped into someone and said, I'm so sorry, because you know what English people do that. 01;12;27;06 - 01;12;27;13 Speaker 3 They. 01;12;27;15 - 01;12;28;17 Speaker 2 Bump into someone, then they. 01;12;28;17 - 01;12;32;15 Speaker 3 Apologize. So, so sorry. 01;12;32;17 - 01;12;35;03 Speaker 2 I didn't get an answer. And I said, I'm sorry. 01;12;35;06 - 01;12;36;02 Speaker 3 Nothing. 01;12;36;04 - 01;12;41;08 Speaker 2 You might say something because I realized there was no one that. 01;12;41;11 - 01;12;43;20 Speaker 3 And so I just. 01;12;43;23 - 01;12;48;09 Speaker 2 I just felt silly. I could feel myself going red in the dark. 01;12;48;11 - 01;13;12;01 Speaker 1 I know that you've you've done lots of Dickens shows. And I just wondered if and to perform Dickens, especially around Christmas time, which for my money is the I think that Christmas, Hanukkah, the end of the year. I think it's way more spooky and haunted than than Halloween. I feel like Halloween just blows open the doors between worlds.

01;13;12;01 - 01;13;39;07 Speaker 1 And by the time we get, you know, to December 24th or New Year's Eve, all of the ghosts are really there. Do you know? Because the families are together, our expectations are high. It's just such a a packed time of year. And so I'm curious if in in in playing and doing Dickens at that time of year, if you yourself ever felt sort of extra haunted. 01;13;39;09 - 01;14;09;03 Speaker 2 The answer is yes. Actually, a couple of years ago I did a really you know, I've I mean, I've been in adaptations of Dickens novels A couple of years ago I did a really an unusual and a rather marvelous solo adaptation of A Christmas Carol, but told from Jacob Marley's perspective, written by an actor called Tom Müller. It's a really brilliant of work. 01;14;09;06 - 01;14;19;01 Speaker 2 Tom had played Scrooge in Chicago for, I think, seven or eight years consecutively. And, you know, being steeped in the story, then I thought, wouldn't it be. 01;14;19;03 - 01;14;19;11 Speaker 3 If. 01;14;19;11 - 01;14;44;12 Speaker 2 We saw what Jacob Marley thought about it? So he wrote this piece, some of the I can't remember how many characters, but a lot, you know, 20 characters or whatever. But early on in the in the in the act, one of the piece like scene three or four, you know, we're into it ten in or whatever, there's a vision of the underworld and it's quite grotesque. 01;14;44;15 - 01;14;44;27 Speaker 3 And it's. 01;14;44;27 - 01;14;45;22 Speaker 2 Peopled. 01;14;45;22 - 01;14;46;27 Speaker 3 By. 01;14;46;29 - 01;14;51;28 Speaker 2 Grotesques, you know, people with dripping flesh. 01;14;51;28 - 01;14;54;03 Speaker 3 Or people carrying. 01;14;54;03 - 01;14;59;13 Speaker 2 Chains of, you know, money that they cannot release themselves from. 01;14;59;15 - 01;14;59;23 Speaker 3 All. 01;14;59;23 - 01;15;02;23 Speaker 2 The kind of symbolic representations of. 01;15;02;24 - 01;15;03;26 Speaker 3 The of the. 01;15;03;26 - 01;15;05;24 Speaker 2 Things that caught the spirit while. 01;15;05;24 - 01;15;07;09 Speaker 3 They were alive. 01;15;07;11 - 01;15;13;00 Speaker 2 And that was scary because it wasn't that I felt. 01;15;13;03 - 01;15;13;21 Speaker 3 Well, I did. 01;15;13;21 - 01;15;16;06 Speaker 2 I suppose, feel a little bit immersed. 01;15;16;09 - 01;15;16;18 Speaker 3 In the. 01;15;16;18 - 01;15;18;17 Speaker 2 Sort of it was just me. 01;15;18;17 - 01;15;23;06 Speaker 3 Up there, you know, and, and it was like. 01;15;23;06 - 01;15;35;14 Speaker 2 It was this risk of substance of some of slimy. It wasn't quite air and it wasn't quite water. And I you know, I had to visualize all these characters as I was describing them. 01;15;35;16 - 01;16;00;08 Speaker 1 They love and they love it. So what every one of my favorite things that I love to ask every guest and I love this question, so I'm going to ask you is and there's no right or wrong answers about this, only your ideas. And and you're not just an actor. You you move in metaphysical circles

as well, and you do astrology. 01;16;00;08 - 01;16;31;12 Speaker 1 And I know you from our shared love of tarot. So your creativity expands much further than then than just the the acting bit. But knowing what you know about what it feels like to be alive, where do you think we were before we were born and where do you think you are going? Yeah, when you. 01;16;31;14 - 01;16;43;09 Speaker 2 fantastic. Our birth is but asleep. And the forgetting the soul that rises with us. Our life's star. 01;16;43;11 - 01;16;43;20 Speaker 3 Has. 01;16;43;20 - 01;17;09;21 Speaker 2 Had elsewhere its setting and cometh from afar Not in utter nakedness and not an entire forgetfulness, but trailing clouds of glory. Do we come from God who is our home? That's from a poem called Intimations of Immortality, based on recollections of early childhood. 01;17;09;23 - 01;17;10;27 Speaker 3 By the poet. 01;17;10;27 - 01;17;14;12 Speaker 2 Wordsworth. It was written in 1805. I think he was onto something. 01;17;14;12 - 01;17;25;13 Speaker 3 I do think it is. I think that. Well, first of all. 01;17;25;15 - 01;17;52;17 Speaker 2 You know, as we're doing this conversation, I'm remembering something which is that when I was young, I lost someone to cancer. A girl spit older than me, but she died. And on the way to the funeral, I wondered if somehow she was still connected with the body. And I reason, I wondered, was that there had been suffering and pain. 01;17;52;19 - 01;17;53;20 Speaker 3 And I heard. 01;17;53;20 - 01;17;55;06 Speaker 2 Her voice. 01;17;55;08 - 01;17;55;23 Speaker 3 And she. 01;17;55;23 - 01;17;56;11 Speaker 2 Shouted. 01;17;56;15 - 01;17;58;10 Speaker 3 01;17;58;12 - 01;18;05;09 Speaker 2 And it was this wonderful happy. No. And we at once been given an acting exercise of can you. 01;18;05;09 - 01;18;06;23 Speaker 3 Produce a happy. 01;18;06;23 - 01;18;41;15 Speaker 2 You know, a celebration, you know. So we were all going around, going in, know. Anyway, I heard this man and I was just it was great. It was a lovely moment. And then, in fact, some time later I had a visitation, which was very convincing. So I feel I've been immensely privileged because I think when it comes to things for which there is no empirical proof and of course astrology is amongst them. 01;18;41;17 - 01;18;50;04 Speaker 2 I mean, this is it's really a materialists nightmare astrology because there is no proof and there never will be. What there. 01;18;50;04 - 01;18;51;05 Speaker 3 Is. 01;18;51;08 - 01;19;06;13 Speaker 2 Is experience and there's untold amounts of that. If it works for you, if you've seen it work, then you know you can get somewhere with it. But if you're one of these people who. 01;19;06;16 - 01;19;06;26 Speaker 3 You know, the. 01;19;06;26 - 01;19;38;12 Speaker 2 Received wisdom of scientific orthodoxy says astrology is nonsense, well you know, you don't know what you're missing anyway. So one of the books I read early on was Autobiography of a Yogi. Did you ever read

it? You know it. It's by Paramahansa Yogananda, an Indian guru who who came to America in the 1920s, I think 1920s, and founded an organization called, the Self-Realization Fellowship, or that's the name. 01;19;38;12 - 01;20;00;04 Speaker 2 It goes by now. And it was it's a most fantastic book. I mean, it's just a spiritual autobiography and. He talks about his guru and meeting his guru, who was an astrologer, by the way, a Vedic variety. And one of the things I particularly loved about the book is that unusually. 01;20;00;06 - 01;20;00;13 Speaker 3 For. 01;20;00;13 - 01;20;36;06 Speaker 2 Books of esoteric, it does get down to the nitty gritty, and it does offer an answer about this precise question of where do we go when we die? And Yogananda's deal, if I remember correctly. And of course I may be mistaken, but I think so Finally, his guru kind of explains to him, once you achieve a certain level of development and of course in the yogic system it would be the ability to enter Maha Samadhi at will. 01;20;36;08 - 01;20;47;25 Speaker 2 MAHA Somebody you know is enlightenment adjacent, what we would think of and what is enlightenment enlightenment is unconditional love. What is enlightenment? The ability to forgive. 01;20;47;27 - 01;20;48;07 Speaker 3 You know. 01;20;48;07 - 01;20;51;02 Speaker 2 All, all these elevated values which are so. 01;20;51;02 - 01;20;53;17 Speaker 3 Hot should try. 01;20;53;19 - 01;20;58;19 Speaker 2 Unconditional love. And then someone treads on your toe. Not so easy, right? 01;20;58;19 - 01;20;59;22 Speaker 3 I mean, with we are. 01;20;59;22 - 01;21;14;14 Speaker 2 All imperfect human beings. But according to Steve Israel and Yogananda, if as and when you do get there and then the other part of the Secret Eastern doctrine is that we're all going to get there in the end. 01;21;14;16 - 01;21;15;22 Speaker 3 After that. 01;21;15;25 - 01;21;16;28 Speaker 2 Who knows how many. 01;21;16;28 - 01;21;18;09 Speaker 3 Incarnations. 01;21;18;11 - 01;21;19;18 Speaker 2 Some of us are slower. 01;21;19;18 - 01;21;22;28 Speaker 3 Than others right? Then we go. 01;21;22;28 - 01;21;27;19 Speaker 2 We go on to the next realm. And, you know, there's a whole new set. 01;21;27;22 - 01;21;27;28 Speaker 3 Of. 01;21;27;28 - 01;21;28;21 Speaker 2 Playing cards. 01;21;28;21 - 01;21;30;05 Speaker 3 So to life. 01;21;30;05 - 01;21;40;29 Speaker 2 Tasks or whatever it is my own personal view, as I said, that early experience of loss and. 01;21;41;02 - 01;21;42;06 Speaker 3 I. 01;21;42;08 - 01;22;03;29 Speaker 2 I came across a wonderful aphorism, I think it was a Buddhist scripture, the Dharma pardner, which says we are surrounded by the blessed dead who are very close to us. But having said all that, it's very hard if you've been brought up in the Judeo-Christian tradition and if you've read, for example, The Divine Comedy by. 01;22;03;29 - 01;22;07;00 Speaker 3 Dante very hard to. 01;22;07;00 - 01;22;19;08 Speaker 2 Escape the conclusion that where we go may very well depend on how we've lived. I mean. 01;22;19;11 - 01;22;20;23 Speaker 3 You know. 01;22;20;26 - 01;22;44;01 Speaker 2 Shakespeare's play measure for measure has something to say about that. This man sentenced to die, a young man he says, I'm about to die and go. We know not where to lie. In thrilling regions of thick ribbed ice. I mean, isn't that wonderful? That language can be scary. I mean, not only what Shakespeare play well done. I mean, the short answer is I don't know. 01;22;44;02 - 01;22;46;23 Speaker 2 Of course I know. How would I know? You know? Well, we're. 01;22;46;23 - 01;22;47;27 Speaker 3 Here as. 01;22;47;27 - 01;22;48;07 Speaker 2 A sort. 01;22;48;07 - 01;22;49;14 Speaker 3 Of. 01;22;49;16 - 01;23;00;05 Speaker 2 But I think I'm I think I feel confidently hopeful again, You know, as Plato said, either we continue. 01;23;00;07 - 01;23;00;24 Speaker 3 Or. 01;23;00;25 - 01;23;14;07 Speaker 2 We don't, in which case it's like going to sleep. Who doesn't enjoy a good night's sleep, roomie? That's the one to to quote. Really? I died a mineral and became a plant. I died a. 01;23;14;07 - 01;23;14;27 Speaker 3 Plum. 01;23;14;29 - 01;23;29;12 Speaker 2 And became an animal. I died an animal and became a human. I died a human and became an angel. When did I ever become less by dying. 01;23;29;14 - 01;23;30;06 Speaker 3 Or. 01;23;30;08 - 01;23;35;16 Speaker 2 Walt Whitman, which is also beautiful. I love this quote says. 01;23;35;18 - 01;23;35;26 Speaker 3 To. 01;23;35;27 - 01;23;40;29 Speaker 2 Die is commoner than anyone supposes and lucky. 01;23;41;03 - 01;23;42;26 Speaker 3 I suppose. 01;23;42;27 - 01;23;44;02 Speaker 2 It is. And I think. 01;23;44;05 - 01;23;44;10 Speaker 3 I. 01;23;44;10 - 01;23;50;03 Speaker 2 Mean, I think it's interesting. I mean, I feel like So I'm very glad you asked me that question. 01;23;50;05 - 01;23;50;28 Speaker 3 Not that I'm. 01;23;50;28 - 01;24;27;17 Speaker 2 Adding to the answer, but I'm certainly nearer to the question because I'm 66. And and that's a surprise to me. I never quite expected to get to this. You know, venerable age should be an elder and respected by the young. That hasn't quite happened. But the other thing is that, well, Tolstoy, at the end of one of his short stories, Master Iron Man, talks about, you know, this man dies, passes into the afterlife, and he has a certain view of it. 01;24;27;17 - 01;24;58;17 Speaker 2 And Tolstoy's sentence at the end of and whether he was right or not, each US will very soon know. Yeah, I mean, it's such a temporary situation, isn't it? Being alive. We make this indescribable brief appearance here, you know, I mean, even in terms of, you know, temporary is it is whatever it is, is you get but from the point of view of geological time, you know, it's a blip to say nothing of cosmological time. 01;24;58;19 - 01;25;11;13 Speaker 2 I mean, it's indescribably brief and it's such a mystery to be here, you know, with all its attendant

experiences and joys and sorrows and. 01;25;11;15 - 01;25;12;02 Speaker 3 Well. 01;25;12;08 - 01;25;26;06 Speaker 2 Is it about an astrologer friend of mine said, and I love this too. She said, Our lives are television for. God. 01;25;26;09 - 01;25;30;08 Speaker 1 Well, I've put on a good show. I don't know about you. 01;25;30;10 - 01;25;32;18 Speaker 3 Up. 01;25;32;21 - 01;26;00;17 Speaker 1 And turning my day rate. God works and it's so good. I love that. I love just listening to you talk to you. I think about like, God for you and God forbid, right? No pun intended. But like, if the end was to come tonight, it would have seemed all so quick. It would have seemed like it was all a dream your whole life, everything you've you've been through. 01;26;00;17 - 01;26;09;07 Speaker 1 It is such. It is a blink of an eye. It's it's it's incredible to think about I love and I love. I love. I love to think about it. 01;26;09;10 - 01;26;10;13 Speaker 3 Yeah I. 01;26;10;13 - 01;26;41;04 Speaker 2 Know that. I think I'm I mean, I'm close. I'm very interested in the whole deal. I've read a few books here and there. I mean, what do I know? But I've read the books that I've enjoyed. Raymond Moody is the doctor. I think life before life, Life After. You know, this whole idea. I actually someone whose perspective on incarnation in fictional form that I very much enjoys is the late great novelist Doris Lessing. 01;26;41;06 - 01;26;55;24 Speaker 2 And she wrote sort of psychological novels with a neo feminist. Well, not even neo, just a feminist flavor starting in the sixties and seventies. And then she wrote a quintet of novels, which was science fiction. 01;26;55;26 - 01;26;56;03 Speaker 3 And. 01;26;56;09 - 01;27;25;10 Speaker 2 And yeah, really cool. And the first one is called She Kastor. And it's a kind of retelling of the Old Testament from a science fiction point of view, and I think its founding is a masterpiece. And then the second one in the series sort of develops on one. But, but she has this whole deal about, you know, this very challenging idea that's around that we choose the life we get. 01;27;25;10 - 01;27;29;28 Speaker 2 We we choose our parents and we, you know, we design it. In fact. 01;27;30;00 - 01;27;30;27 Speaker 3 You know. 01;27;30;29 - 01;27;33;28 Speaker 2 And that's that's a hugely challenging idea. 01;27;33;29 - 01;27;38;16 Speaker 3 And, you know, you think really, I. 01;27;38;16 - 01;27;41;18 Speaker 2 Signed up for this. 01;27;41;20 - 01;28;13;13 Speaker 1 But it's funny. It's funny. Colin, I will say it's funny that you say that because my I have not had many ghostly experiences that I remember. And I don't know if I've ever shared this with you before, but quite and I am very skeptical. I am very because I want to know if something's happening. I want to know that it's actually happening, that it's not my imagination or but I was I was my husband and I were just starting to try and have a baby. 01;28;13;16 - 01;28;33;26 Speaker 1

And out of nowhere I was painting a bedroom. Out of nowhere, I felt energies in the room with me. There were three distinct energies and the one in the middle picked me and I went, I, I'm going to be pregnant. They just picked me. 01;28;33;28 - 01;28;34;28 Speaker 3 Wow. 01;28;35;01 - 01;29;02;14 Speaker 1 Which? And then they I mean, they like they appeared and then they left. And I didn't see them. I sensed them, but I knew what was was going on. I said to my husband, I said, I think it's going to happen quickly. And sure enough, it did. And grapple with that for myself to know that if that that that why would I why would any I mean, I could tell you why my daughter picked me. 01;29;02;14 - 01;29;16;29 Speaker 1 I mean, obviously, come on. But but I mean to take that is to be, you know, follow that through logically it's while yes. One has to think about. 01;29;17;01 - 01;29;18;13 Speaker 2 Certainly is, isn't it. 01;29;18;13 - 01;29;19;11 Speaker 3 Yeah. 01;29;19;13 - 01;29;56;07 Speaker 2 Well Yeah. I mean, you know, I think the idea of the doctrine of pre-birth existence was certainly very well known. Plato, his whole deal was that, you know, we each about each individual soul inhabits the star. And when ready to incarnate descends through each planetary realm to arrive here, the precise moment that corresponds with the life plan. So if you are interested. 01;29;56;09 - 01;29;57;10 Speaker 3 In following up an. 01;29;57;15 - 01;29;58;00 Speaker 2 Idea. 01;29;58;06 - 01;29;58;11 Speaker 3 A. 01;29;58;11 - 01;30;04;07 Speaker 2 Very good first step would be to find an astrologer and tell them your birthday. 01;30;04;09 - 01;30;07;08 Speaker 1 And where did someone find a good astrologer? Call it. 01;30;07;11 - 01;30;09;28 Speaker 3 Well. gosh. 01;30;10;00 - 01;30;15;27 Speaker 2 Interesting. Well, you could start at pleasant will astrology dot com. 01;30;16;00 - 01;30;16;06 Speaker 3 And. 01;30;16;06 - 01;30;21;28 Speaker 2 If you hit the about page I think there's a sort of introductory video that gives you some idea. 01;30;22;01 - 01;30;22;19 Speaker 3 Of of. 01;30;22;19 - 01;30;34;26 Speaker 2 What we're after the astrology is much misunderstood and much misrepresented. It's really about more than is this a good day to go shopping. 01;30;34;28 - 01;30;36;18 Speaker 3 You should. 01;30;36;20 - 01;30;43;24 Speaker 2 Ultimately it's a wonderfully sophisticated. 01;30;43;27 - 01;30;47;08 Speaker 3 Tool for self-awareness. 01;30;47;08 - 01;30;59;00 Speaker 2 And self knowledge and exploration, I think. And it's one of those things bit like acting really, that lets you know you're alive. 01;30;59;03 - 01;31;00;09 Speaker 3 Which is a symbol. 01;31;00;10 - 01;31;00;21 Speaker 2 I think, a. 01;31;00;21 - 01;31;02;09 Speaker 3 Good thing. 01;31;02;12 - 01;31;07;12 Speaker 1 Do you offer long distance readings and classes as well? 01;31;07;15 - 01;31;13;00 Speaker 2 absolutely, yeah. I mean, what would we all do without Zoom that we've become so. 01;31;13;03 - 01;31;14;26 Speaker 3 Frustrated, certainly. 01;31;14;29 - 01;31;18;00 Speaker 2 Worldwide. Totally, Of course. 01;31;18;02 - 01;31;19;19 Speaker 3 Yeah. 01;31;19;21 - 01;31;37;10 Speaker 1 It's went well. I can't thank you enough for coming on, Michael. Stories by the Fire. It's been. I love to hang out with you any and all times, but I feel like it's an extra special joy for me to share you with the world so they can also wonder. 01;31;37;12 - 01;31;38;15 Speaker 3 How. 01;31;38;17 - 01;31;42;18 Speaker 2 To thank you so much from me. 01;31;42;20 - 01;32;13;24 Speaker 1 Thank you so much for being part of Ghost Stories by the Fire. Do you have a spooky story, near-death experience or supernatural happening you'd like to share? I'd love to Hear It. Submit your story to Sasha Grammy.com with ghost stories by the fire in the subject line. You might just wind up on this podcast. And if you want to support it and keep the ghost stories coming, head on over to Sasha Grammy.com to check out my books and tarot decks which are available. 01;32;13;28 - 01;32;34;28 Speaker 1 Purchase at your favorite bookseller. The Ghost Stories by the Fire theme song is titled Lovely from the original motion picture score of The Deeper You Dig a film about the lengths a mother will go to to find her daughter's killer. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I'm saving you, a seat at the fire.