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different. Yeah. Ian (03:55) Yes. And the willingness to do it on camera, right? Like it's such an interesting concept, but we can compare and contrast, it's amazing because I think It was Whitney and her husband that started out at the beginning of the episode where they're in like the guest room talking about Tori (04:10) Right. Ian (04:11) like being in separate rooms and stuff. And I have to say, I was sitting there, I was like, people could take notes on this of how to have a really uncomfortable conversation in a couple and do it really well. Tori (04:24) Okay. what did you think of that? Ian (04:26) So I I mean I didn't understand a lot of the context of like how they got to where they were, obviously. Tori (04:33) That was a lot of last season, yeah. Ian (04:35) there was clearly things that were left unsaid, and maybe that's part of the contrast, is that maybe the conversations didn't always go that way. But when they sit what's the husband's name? Because I have Whitney and I'm proud of myself for that, but Justin, okay. Okay. Tori (04:45) Justin. Yes, you are you correct, Justin, Whitney and Justin. Ian (04:49) So when when Justin comes in the room, and and they start talking, it's so interesting when you have this conversation, like I think Whitney clearly has an idea that something needs to change, but she doesn't really know what it is. And yet Justin does this job of sort of listening, right? Okay, I hear what you're saying. you want things to be different, but you know, what does this mean? How do we have this conversation? How do we talk to the kids about it? But there's not this urgency to know or have her say exactly what she wants. There's not a lot of defensiveness in what he's saying. And there's not a lot of defensiveness from her. And I I took notes this time. So I have my notes of the summary stuff. But Tori (05:27) Yes, okay. Ian (05:29) I took notes. But it was amazing to me to see so we'll we'll get into the dinner at the end. Because we gotta get into that. Like we'll get into that. But I Tori (05:36) That is that was basically the me yeah, that's the meat of it. Yeah. Ian (05:39) Yes, but I want to touch on like when you watch that at the end, you see all of these women sort of like as individuals arguing and talking over one another, right? And so there's this conflict where they're sort of just individuals in a larger group conflict. But when you go back to this conversation between Whitney and Justin, at the end, if you notice, she goes, I want to hug at the end. And it's such an important thing to see because I think so many people view conflict or view not knowing exactly what they want out of a relationship or viewing the gray area in a relationship as this negative, right? If I don't know exactly what I want, if I don't know how to clearly communicate it, or Justin, if I don't know how to listen, if I don't know how to problem solve, particularly from a male role sometimes, like if I don't

know how to problem solve, then this won't be productive. And yet you see that connection point at the end where they actually, I'm speculating here, but you would you could tell by the nonverbal with the hug and the request is that they actually felt a little bit closer. And it was so interesting to see that it's not wasn't necessarily an argument, but it was a conflict, right? It was something that they were misaligned on, that Justin was sort of pulled into and just as a person, like The hey, we need to talk, and then he goes, What is it, close the door serious? And my anxiety shoots up like not close the door serious. but then to see the contrast of them connecting after and coming out was fascinating to me because it was such a conversation in which you say they're using I feel statements, validating and listening, right? This is what you want, this is what I'm hearing, clarity, communication. It was remarkable. I was very surprised. Tori (07:20) Well hey, then great intro to it, right? And especially since what you were thinking is that the marriage scenes were gonna make you the most uncomfortable and here you are being like so impressed by it. yeah, it did seem like what Whitney is asking for is just space to figure it out. Now it's interesting watching it back because I don't know where they are right now, 'cause I'm pretty sure they're a bit further down the road in separation. I guess to give a little bit of context of her saying it was just for a while spiraling for them is this is the Whitney I mentioned in the recap. She had a business and when Justin got involved it kind of turned MLM style. And so she was really upset for taking his guidance in the MLM world. instead of like what she describes as trusting her gut and going in a different direction. And so now that has kind of caused friction as she described in everything else. Ian (08:16) That's helpful context. Okay. she did mention that. it was just really yeah, I mean it's you know, w and when Tori (08:21) Yeah, if you don't know then that's hard to connect the dots. Ian (08:24) Well, and and it's just interesting 'cause I'm sure obviously this is not the first conversation they've had, around Tori (08:30) Yeah. Ian (08:30) all of this. Like I could almost tell from your face that like, you know, if we go back a couple of seasons, like I'm sure there's heated conflict, but it from you know, an isolated context, I think it's a it's a really interesting thing to see them talk that way. And, you know, when you bring things into a marriage, whether it's business, you know, kids, and any change like that, it can be a lot. Tori (08:53) Yeah. Ian (08:51) So it's interesting to watch that that happen. Tori (08:54) Right. Which is something they talked about too, the kids and how they're gonna navigate taking space from each other, but trying to stay relatively together. Ian (09:06) we've talked about how public, you know, their lives are and things, but it's so interesting to hear them say that they I don't remember exactly what it was, but their biggest fight, right, was over something Yeah, with the coupon. That's what it was, the coupon. And Tori (09:16) With the coupon. Yeah. Yeah. Ian (09:20) and they're sitting there You know, that that's what the kids have seen as their biggest fight. And it just Tori (09:24) Yeah. Ian (09:25) goes to speak. We all know this from a logical standpoint, but it it goes to speak to just how much we don't know. Right? What you don't see with people and what people can be good at masking, avoiding, or pushing under the rug. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to truly understand or believe that there are other things going on that could be deeper than what you see. Tori (09:47) Yeah. Yes. I think that they did a good job communicating. this is a funny thing to know about Whitney. she a couple of seasons ago went through her and she says it too. I'm not like poking fun. Her healing era. But Whitney has Ian (10:01) Yeah, yeah. Tori (10:01) a certain way of pronouncing words, so it sounds like healing era. So instead of healing, it sounds like healing. so she's been doing a lot of work. for herself the past couple of seasons Ian (10:11) Mm-hmm. Tori (10:12) and now it's, you know, leading to where her marriage stands. okay, but before we get too far into the episode or some of the content, I wanted to know what you thought about the tagline intros. Ian (10:26) My first thought was we have missed an opportunity here for us to have taglines. yes, for you and I. That was literally my first Tori (10:31) for the spot guys. Ian (10:35) thought is like, my gosh, how do we get connoisseur of reality TV show in Tori's tagline? Yes, yes. I Tori (10:41) Of of housewives. I yeah, go ahead. Ian (10:46) I died li I mean I they were some of the I don't remember them as well as I would like, but they were so funny. amazing. Okay. Tori (10:51) I wrote them down. I wrote them down. Do you want to hear some of them? they were just too good Ian (10:55) Yes. Tori (10:55) not to mention. Okay. And if you have questions as to what does that even mean, I'll tell you. All right, Lisa's I put a song in my heart to replace the knife in my back. It's perfect. And Lisa loves to sing. I do feel like I saw in the trailer she's going to be singing more this season. Heather. And that's a huge thing for housewives. A lot of housewives try to have a singing career. I don't know if Lisa's gonna try and do that, but they do try to sing on camera a lot. okay, Heather. I don't kiss until I publish and sell. Ian (11:29) That one is the one that got me. I don't know what that means. I don't know that I need to know what that means. Like that is just hilarious that Tori (11:34) She's written a couple of books about Mormonism. Yeah. Ian (11:40) Yes, I I loved that one. That was so funny. Tori (11:43) okay, Mary. In my darkest times I found the light. That tracks. I feel like

that's that's pretty good for Mary. Ian (11:47) Okay. Yeah, I remember that one. Okay. yes, yeah, absolutely. Tori (11:52) Okay, Whitney, I've always been a rose but now I'm in full bloom. Ian (11:59) Yeah, that one I was like, I don't know what that means. Tori (12:04) Whitney's makeup company, her business thing, was called Ian (12:06) Okay. Tori (12:07) Whitney Wild Rose. Ian (12:09) Okay. Tori (12:10) So the rose, it might be her middle name or something, but Wild Rose. So I've always been a rose, but now I'm in full bloom. So I Ian (12:16) Mm-hmm. Tori (12:17) don't know. maybe she's trying to go for a transformation. Ian (12:19) Yeah. Well I was thinking of it as like, you know, rose bushes are super prickly and you know when they bloom Tori (12:24) huh, okay. Ian (12:25) they get their, you know, beauty and they can you Tori (12:27) Yeah. Ian (12:28) can see the the more vulnerable the the true colors of somebody without the defenses up yeah, I went full psychoan analytic with it, Tori (12:36) Okay, this one, Merediths, I laughed out loud. This year I'm turning up the base and showing off my new face. Ian (12:45) Dying laughing. that's sort of the self deprecating humor of like because Meredith has gotten Slacker has mentioned, you know, getting a facelift and Okay. Tori (12:54) Yes. And what you might not know is that she is starting a career as a DJ. So when she says I'm turning up the base, yeah, she's Ian (13:02) yes. No I didn't know that. Tori (13:04) she's a DJ. So she's leaning all in with that tagline. Ian (13:10) Do these taglines change every season? Tori (13:12) Yes. Yes, they do. Ian (13:15) Okay. Okay. Tori (13:17) Okay, Angie. I have a sharp tongue, but it never makes for a dull moment. Perfect. Perfect. Ian (13:23) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (13:24) Like I said, Angie is the one that definitely has the one-liners. So her sharp tongue, Ian (13:29) Okay. Tori (13:30) I mean that's a good one for her, sharp tongue. Ian (13:32) Okay. Tori (13:33) And then Bronwyn, you collect rumors while I'm collecting designers. I mean, they came and they delivered on those. So yes, those change every season. always on like the second episode. So I thought that those were hilarious. Ian (13:49) Okay. here's what we should do. We each come up with our own tagline, right? And then we Tori (13:54) Okay. Ian (13:54) give a tagline to the other. And then I Tori (13:56) okay. Ian (13:57) think I think Yessi should give us taglines as well, and give our producer the option to give us taglines. Tori (14:03) I love it. We'll have to change our intro. Ian (14:06) or we can, you know, just say our taglines when we come in so that, you know, every season we can update it with every new show that we watch and Tori (14:13) Right, right. Ian (14:14) and the more immersed I get in Bravo, the more my tagline can truly reflect that. Tori (14:21) okay, we definitely have to get into the lunch. That that will definitely be

the big part, but also for this episode we met the friends of. So Ian (14:29) We did. Tori (14:30) we got to meet Quai Quay Quai Ian (14:35) The only reason I think it's Quai is because I don't remember who it was, but somebody said Quai rhymes with "why" and why would you wear any of that? Tori (14:42) that's right. Why would you wear that outfit? Which was so funny that the producers of the show also did it right after Brittany was like, I love her style, I love her outfits, and then Bronwin's like, Why are you wearing that? I thought that was perfect. Ian (15:01) we don't have to talk long about this, but the producer part is so funny because I I am getting more and more impressed of how I'm not saying the content is curated, but how purposeful they are in the way that they Tori (15:13) Yes. Ian (15:14) do or intervene during the interviews and stuff. I can't remember who was talking, but when somebody referred to I think it was Meredith having a wig and they like let her say it and then when like she doesn't have a wig, just a facelift, and they like let Tori (15:25) No, she didn't admit to a wig. She didn't say she had a wig is the correction. Ian (15:29) That's right. That's right. Tori (15:31) and too when when Britney's like, I'm done dating, I'm over men, and immediately cut to Heather, like, I can probably smell Jared on her neck. Like, you know that that is not true. She is defin like it's just perfect timing that makes it like Ian (15:45) It is. Tori (15:46) comedic. Like the editors are definitely in on the joke. Ian (15:50) And it's the the best one though of that is the ayahuasca. Tori (15:57) the frog when Angie was saying it was Rella Frog. Ian (15:59) in bright yellow letters it says ayahuasca does not go. Like so funny. Tori (16:05) So funny and from the whole ski trip too that they had the GoPros on their skis and like all the different angles of them like falling. my gosh. I was laughing. Like it's so good. Yes. Ian (16:17) It was such a funny episode. and I I just have to say that like I do admire Lisa's sort of Sort of risk taking in the sense that, like, again, my stereotype or prejudice coming into this is like this is so curated, right? You look at their outfits, you look at their homes, everything is placed perfectly. And then you have this woman who is like, Yeah, let's do it. I'm gonna do a ski weekend or a ski day. She doesn't know how to ski! Tori (16:47) And she has no idea how to ski and takes the ski lift back down because she gets to the top and it's like this is a bad idea. That was Ian (16:54) Because sh well she could hardly get on the ski lift. Tori (16:59) so funny. And again, that's the awareness piece. Ian (17:01) But also the yes, the resilience to be able to Tori (17:04) Yeah. Ian (17:07) admit like for so many people, the idea of admitting I'm not good at something, I was wrong about it, or I can't do it is so foreign that they don't do it or they try to go down, they get hurt, they bring other people along. And she just is like, Yeah, I'm gonna take the ski lift down, gets the ski patrol. And I I admire that. I was like, this is This is fascinating. Again, I would assume that somebody who I mean, the outfits were clearly on point. They had the bus to and from, the the appetizers, Tori (17:35) Right. Ian (17:36) the courses, like everything is planned to a T and then to get Tori (17:39) Right. Ian (17:40) up there and be like, nah, I'm good is just remarkable. Tori (17:42) And for her to say it was a miracle to even get her boots on, I was dying at that. It's like, my gosh, she wasn't even that confident on the boots part before the skiing even started. No, you gotta love it though. I mean like it's perfect. Ian (17:55) And I think a lot of us can learn from things like that, right? You and I have talked about in developing this podcast of not wanting it to be so curated that it feels, you know, stiff or impersonal. And I think like, I'm watching this T V show that I feel would represent sort of the the curated side of things, and I'm actually taking some inspiration of like, Tori (18:14) Yeah, she is embracing risk, right. Ian (18:17) Yes. And the resiliency to not we talked about this a little bit last time of taking it as like a personal failure or feeling you know, many of us like might feel guilty to having people come out and then, you know, not doing the activity and she just seemed to let it, you know, water off a duck's back, sort of thing. Tori (18:34) Yeah. Yeah, she's like, I tried. It's the effort versus outcome. Ian (18:38) It's it's the process. You're exactly right. That's Tori (18:40) Yeah. Ian (18:40) great way to put it. I couldn't help like I was watching with Courtney last night. I thought it was I turned her and I was like it they didn't outright say this, but did they do one run? Tori (18:51) Yeah, it looks like it. Yeah. You know, check that's all they needed to do. Let's go to brunch. Yeah. Ian (18:55) Which which again, my personality is yes, so utility driven and oriented of like and of course, I mean you you and I have known each other long enough. Your husband and I have had many of these conversations, just the cost of all of that to go skiing once for me was like a visceral reaction of like Tori (19:09) Right. For one. Yeah. Ian (19:12) wait, what what are they do like I I was like concerned that they had only gotten one run in. Tori (19:17) I will say Courtney said we should watch at least one episode this season together or maybe we'll do like a live watch just to actually get some of your reactions like in real time. Ian (19:26) Yeah. Tori (19:27) some of these jokes especially with the jokes that the women were making, I was like, my gosh. there's no way Ian was expecting that. And then again, when they started fighting, there's I mean, how do you prepare? No. Ian (19:38) No, that part, yeah. was it Whitney again at the end when she's talking about

she apologized to who was the one that accepted her apology? Was it Lisa? Okay. Tori (19:48) Lisa, that was Lisa. Ian (19:50) When she's talking about the Velcro balls. And she's just like I I was like, that that Tori (19:56) It's Ian (19:56) is like humor that you would expect from like young men, not somebody who's on this TV show. I was it was hilarious, but it was but Tori (20:03) Yeah. Yeah. We're breaking stereotypes for you, Ian. Ian (20:07) and that is all on me to do the work of breaking those and I am proud Tori (20:10) Ha ha ha. Ian (20:11) of myself for being open to it. It's just one of those things Tori (20:13) Yeah. Ian (20:14) like you're describing. I am not expecting that level of humor and and again Tori (20:19) Yeah. Ian (20:19) willingness to be vulnerable without being super embarrassed. Tori (20:23) Yeah. Ian (20:24) Like again, to laugh at yourself or to like you can see her processing what she's saying, realizing how it's gonna come off, and then still going with it. Like she's she's just like, no, I'm not I'm not gonna stop this. Yeah. Which I love. Tori (20:32) Yeah. Yeah. She's like, you know what? Yeah, let's just let I'm just gonna finish it out. Yeah. Ian (20:37) We need more of that in in a s you know, society that's curated around, selective things that we're putting on social media, only giving the best sides of ourselves, you know, not saying things because we're afraid somebody's gonna crack a joke or or make fun of us. Tori (20:51) That's a good point. Ian (20:51) and I respect that. Like I was really pleasantly surprised by the willingness to engage in something like that and you know, not 'cause, you know, you've seen stuff where people be like, it it needs to be Cut or like, can you cut that out, or this can be cut out and stuff? they're just going Tori (21:07) yeah, they're letting it roll. Ian (21:08) with it, which is great. Tori (21:10) Okay, let's get into what I think I mean the ski trip was the main like the piece de resistance for the whole episode, right? There's a lot of things that happened that we can kind of dissect from ski trip on. You mentioned it, the Lisa and Whitney apology. So a couple of different types of apologies happened in this episode. Ian (21:34) They sure did. Tori (21:35) so I feel like we should talk about the apologies. For example, Whitney pulled Lisa, and this happens in housewives a lot, if they feel like they need to have a serious conversation, they'll pull the person they need to talk to off to the side, like away from the group. Lisa ended up being more open to it, because it was the one-on-one apology. Whitney was able to like be sincere, explain her side of things, and just between the two of them. So they were able to kind of like connect, say their piece. No one else is like chiming in, giving opinions, any of that. So then other apologies that happened in contrast to that, Whitney still gave an apology to Meredith, but it was in front of the group. Heather gave an apology to Lisa that was in front of the group, do you remember Heather apologizing on the bus? Ian (22:26) Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Tori (22:27) Okay. So she was apologizing for the girls trip thing. Ian (22:31) That's right. Yes, 'cause one of was in the front, one of his in the back, and they're like talking Tori (22:32) Yes. So yes. Ian (22:37) over people who are in the middle quietly. It was awkward, but yes, I remember. Okay. Tori (22:40) And it's yeah, it was still in front of everyone, but everyone let Ian (22:43) Mm-hmm. Tori (22:43) them just like talk. No one chimed into that one as well. it went well. Lisa is seemingly in those moments accepting the apologies. Ian (22:53) Yes, Tori (22:55) then we can contrast with the apologies that went to Meredith. Whitney apologized to Meredith at the brunch. yes, in front of the group and Well, I wonder how we should talk about this. But not only was it in front of the group, but there was the expectation of this is my apology. She says you don't have to accept it, but I want to move on. So that within itself is a very loaded statement, and then the fight ensues. So if that's like the tee up, where should we start with these apologies? Ian (23:30) So let's start with one very small thing that I think a lot of people could relate to, but it's something that you might not catch. I was trying to pay unique attention to this in the first apology with Whitney and and Lisa. And if you notice, when they are both talking, they are using I statements. I apologize, Tori (23:54) Uh-huh. Ian (23:55) I'm sorry, I'm taking responsibility, I felt even, when Lisa gets into her frustration with with Whitney, it's like I felt this way when and then fill in the blank. If you watch the the lunch or the dinner whatever, the big argument, one of the things is not the only reason it in my opinion, it sort of exploded, but there is a moment, I think it's Meredith, who Cause Whitney actually did a pretty good job. Yes, it was public, but she's like, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that and Meredith, as soon as she goes, Well, you and throws the you back at her and you see the immediate defensiveness, not just from Whitney, but from I don't know if it's each who's the other the blonde haired lady who is wearing the Tori (24:40) Heather. Ian (24:41) Heather. Heather jumps immediately on the U, and Tori (24:44) Yes. Ian (24:45) it's so interesting to watch that the simple like we call that, in counseling stuff, like the semantics of it, as soon as it shifts from responsibility, and then you go back to when Whitney is is asking to move on, she is giving Meredith the responsibility of Having to move on whether she's ready or not. It is now Tori (25:09) Yeah. Ian (25:09) your decision for us to move on or for us to stay stuck. And when we put people in situations like that, particularly in front of a group where you're extra vulnerable and there are underlying issues,

things are gonna be set off like a powder keg. Tori (25:27) Yes. the group latched on to that one way more because yes, what Ian (25:33) Yes. Tori (25:34) you said, it went from being the I and like this is between you and me and each of our individual feelings to now it's like the collective group moving on. That's basically how that second one was kind of framed. It was like, yes, you have the decision to move on for the group. Not about like your feelings, but like for us. And then that's why I think that that got everyone really activated because it's like, well, if you're gonna hold on to this, if you're not gonna move on, then I'm not gonna move on from this thing that you did, right? And so they all started backtracking into other things where it's like, they could not separate the two thoughts of if you can't accept this apology, then that means I don't have to forgive the thing that you did to me either. Like there's no separation of the behavior, of the emotion. It all now is a collective group feeling instead of it even being at that point it wasn't even between Whitney and Meredith. Because why would Whitney and Meredith's apology acceptance or rejection have anything to do with if Meredith and Heather had apologized and moved on, you know? But now it went from being one conflict between these two women into now everyone is involved. And it's it's the responsibility of this apology for everyone to be able to move on from the whole last year basically is what it divulged into. Ian (27:06) you make so many good points know what you are describing is this idea of when we have conflict with people, right? It ruptures the relationship. There's always gonna be ruptures. And what makes a relationship healthy is not a lack of ruptures, but the ability to fully repair those ruptures to the best of your ability. And what you're describing is it came out, right? The ruptures that were there that were under the surface just exploded because they Clearly weren't fully repaired. And some ruptures for some people can't fully be repaired. And I think not to defend Meredith necessarily, but I also think we are very quick to point the finger. And I again I don't know the history of this, but as an example, we're very quick to point the finger at the person who is not Willing to accept the apology. Like, why can't you just make this easier for everybody? And do I think Meredith communicated her let's say, rejection of the apology in the most effective way? Maybe not. Yeah. Tori (28:07) That's not gonna happen. Ian (28:09) However. It is also okay. And this is where apologies can be really tricky, right? Because when we are asking somebody for an apology or for forgiveness, whatever you want to call it, we are again asking permission for them to be vulnerable enough to say what you did hurt me and I'm going to what we'll call move towards the relationship instead of move away. But true acceptance and an apology is not relying on The person

accepting the apology to be able to move on yourself. Because part of me is like, Whitney, if you want to move on that bad, make your apology and move on. Tori (28:46) Yes. I literally wrote this in my notes because I wanted to come to this topic like Ian (28:49) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (28:51) so much was in this moment, like who is the apology actually for? Because Ian (28:56) Yeah. Tori (28:57) that comes into play for anybody again, what you're describing. When you're apologizing to someone, are you doing it because you need them to say, I accept it and forgive you? Or is giving Ian (29:06) Yes. Tori (29:07) the apology enough and then it's on their own time to be able to move on? And that's really not even to try and take sides between Whitney and Meredith. Ian (29:15) No. Tori (29:15) It is just like generally what is the apology for? And that's why I think it's important sometimes when they apologize one on one versus the group. Ian (29:26) it creates a space because there's so much vulnerability and pressure when somebody apologizes to you in public that you're You're aware that other people are looking at you, you're aware that your actions are going to affect other people. And you know, as we talk about this, one of the ways that people deal with feeling threatened in a social context, if you will, right? We all want to be a part of an in-group for a social group. And when we feel like we are on the outs, we feel attacked. And one of the ways that we deal with that is we try to appease. And appeasing is often trying to say, Yes, I'm okay, let's smooth things out, let's move forward. And sometimes When we apologize, what we're really looking, and I this is not to make a comment on their true intentions because I have no idea, but we're Tori (30:09) Yeah. Ian (30:10) looking for what you're describing as reassurance. We're actually wanting to make sure somebody's not mad at us and the relationship is not gonna change. We might be sorry for the action, but we also want to know that things are okay. We want that certainty and predictability that we still have this relationship in our life. And it's not that we can't get that reassurance, right? But we have to separate if we really want the apology to be sincere. Tori (30:33) Yes, it has to just be the offering of the apology. And yes, if you're waiting for the response from someone to say, I forgive you, or yes, we've moved Ian (30:43) Yes. Tori (30:44) on, or that it's okay, then the apology really was for you, not for them. Ian (30:50) You're a hundred percent right. And if you look at, assertive communication one one, assertive communication is principled by I allow the other person the right to say no, and I allow myself to say no in a situation. And when you look at this, when Whitney and Lisa talked, they both had the right to say no. Like Lisa wasn't on board right away, but they had a little bit of dialogue. When you put somebody in in a situation like that where there's

a lot of other people, that ability for themselves to say no. is reduced sometimes or increased depending on on the social environment. But I think what you see is as soon as it moves from Meredith being able to not accept the apology to actually know this is everyone's underlying expectation that you just accept it and move on, that it no longer becomes assertive in the communication. And they all devolve into aggressive and passive aggressive communication. Tori (31:44) Very quickly. Very quickly. I mean again part of the editing too is when Meredith says that's not gonna happen, the first thing they cut to is actually Heather rolling her eyes. Because that that's Yeah. Yeah. Ian (31:55) And those facial expressions were so loud. Tori (32:00) I mean, I don't even know how to properly dissect that fight because everyone was all over the place because again it was this new permission structure like that they had said, Okay, Meredith just unleashed this. She's not moving on, so I'm not moving on from this or this or this or remember when you did this and I moved on so you should do this and this and and it was just like one after the other after the other of I mean everyone what they've been holding on to really. Ian (32:32) I'm going to be useless because I Tori (32:34) Yeah. Ian (32:34) could not keep up with what was going on and who was Tori (32:37) Yeah. Ian (32:38) talking to who. Tori (32:40) Well, I'll say this, I guess more for the Meredith and Whitney, 'cause something that Meredith has described this isn't her first time saying she feels this way, but Ian (32:51) Mm-hmm. Tori (32:52) she has historically felt like there is pressure for her to accept apologies. And so for Whitney and Meredith, they have gotten in fights a lot. And so what she kind of was describing too was like it this is a cycle. Like she said, you got caught, Ian (33:06) Yes. Tori (33:07) you got put on camera, now you're apologizing, and I'm just supposed to like move on. Again, some of it is like, even though you've done dot dot dot like everyone then chimed in. But I think that might help also to explain why Meredith is so hesitant to accept an apology anyways, if she just feels like, Well, you're only saying this because you got caught and this is just kind of like how it goes. Ian (33:36) And you can't fault somebody for recognizing a pattern of behavior. And and I find myself in those mom you know, obviously watching this not knowing anything. Like, you know, when I watch it coming in brand new, I'm like, well, yeah, just accept her apology. Like everybody makes mistakes. know, one of the things I often look for and talk about with clients is, you know, when somebody's made a mistake, are they making behavioral changes associated with that mistake, or are they just talking about it? Tori (34:00) Right. Ian (34:00) Not drinking. For a while is to me a a significant behavioral change, especially when you're in the company of other people drinking alcohol and stuff. Like that is a sign that somebody is really trying to change if they're willing to change their behaviors. And yet, Tori (34:12) Yes. I agree with that. Ian (34:16) I also don't want to dismiss that if this has been a theme, that you should just accept the apology. think there is this connotation or expectation with people that we should. accept apologies, we should try to, you know, forgive people and sure. Well, I think when you can't you should, but I also think it's too universal to just say that's okay all the time. I think the other thing that, you know, I look at when I look at these types of situations, I think there's a difference between acceptance of apology and acceptance of a situation and you know, acceptance of an apology is really am I ready to be vulnerable around this person again to you know let them in to be able to move forward or move on, whatever you want to call it. And then acceptance is Sort of I think what Meredith is trying to do is like I'm going to accept this person on the terms that they are showing me, which is essentially the idea of I'm accepting life on life's terms, which is which is acceptance or radical acceptance is there's I have seen enough that no matter how bad I want something to change or be different, I can only go so far as to try to make that or do things that are gonna have it change. And I have to accept that the person or the situation in front of me is as it is for right now. and I think that's a really important piece because you can have acceptance and accept an apology and still not want to just move on and have the exact same relationship with that person. I think there's such a a black and white thinking that we not just in the show, but that we have around apologies of what it means to forgive somebody or to accept an apology. It doesn't mean we have to go back to the start or we have to forget everything or wipe this slate clean. We can accept an apology and accept a situation and still be a little bit more protected or withdrawn or however we we want to approach the situation. Tori (36:07) Yes, I would assume it's gonna take a lot more than a group apology from Whitney for Meredith to feel like it's authentic. So we'll see what happens with that one. Well, I mean, they weren't even finished, you know, like with even how the brunch ended. they barely scratched the surface. But yeah, I think what what is being said is show me with your actions, not just with your Ian (36:33) Right. Tori (36:33) Verbals. Ian (36:34) and that's what's interesting, because I think again, you know, Whitney making the change to stop drinking is is an action, but clearly clearly there are other things that that people would like to see, particularly Meredith, but I think there is this interesting this thought crossed my mind too of like I was also like, you know, what if as we are overthinking things, what if Whitney actually didn't regret any of what she said. What if

what you said at the beginning she really just wishes she wouldn't say it on camera? Like what is the social pressure or you you and I've talked about this the pressure of being on a TV show, keeping friendships together. what if that's where this is coming from and you know, if if somebody's picking up on this and again, I don't want to speculate on the intentions for somebody else, but I think as we look at the context of human behavior, like I think sometimes we can sense when there are ulterior motivations to an apology Tori (37:28) For sure. I I wondered what would have happened had Whitney given that apology one-on-one to Meredith instead of saving it for the group. I mean, who knows? They probably will have a one-on-one conversation in the future. But it just fell so flat because everyone was able to chime in and now it's about the group's problems and it was so far so far from Whitney and Meredith by the end of that lunch that they could have avo and that that happens so often in Housewives. And sometimes they do it on purpose. Like sometimes they definitely do the apology or they bring up the topic in front of the group and people will be like, why don't you just say that one on one to me? Like there is sometimes some intention of that. Ian (38:13) Mm-hmm. Tori (38:13) And part of me, again, we don't need to speculate. I don't we're we're gonna assume that Whitney had the best intentions, but Ian (38:19) Yeah, of course. Tori (38:20) It's clearly gonna land differently because there's such a different pressure or expectation. I mean, what was the expectation for Mary to be like, Okay, let's keep it rolling, even though she has all of these pent up feelings about it. And so I kinda have to think like if you're gonna bring up something like that in the group, where do you want it to really go? Ian (38:44) Yeah, yeah. I I think that's very fair and what are your expectations for how that's gonna go or you know, I mean I think, you know, there's the idea that again that Groupthink is something that we hear in in terminology, right? Where where people conform to a group consensus. And so if everybody else thinks that Meredith should move on, then is the idea to get some group think and have that pressure be sort of exacerbated so that Meredith does begin to and again, we're not assuming any intentions of anybody, but I think that as as you talk about a group dynamic Tori (39:17) Yes, that's actually really funny because one of the final things I was gonna say I thought was hilarious was when the new friend of Quai was trying to chime in and Angie's like, You're new, you don't know us, so you need to like be quiet. I thought that was hilarious because she like talk about group think, right? If she Ian (39:36) Yeah. Tori (39:36) can't have an opinion on what she's seeing because Angie was like, This is not your time, girl. Like sit down. We have other things to hash out and they don't involve you. I thought that that was hilarious. But yeah, in terms of like resolution seeking, not great, but I thought that that was so funny. Ian (39:51) Right. it is amazing to watch that have it where like you can predict that's coming, right? This person who's a friend And for me, being in that situation, I would be like, man, I forgot I had to go to the bathroom. Like I get up and want to I would not Tori (40:07) Yeah, I'm outta here. Yeah. Ian (40:08) want to engage in that, but to see somebody want to engage in somebody being like Tori (40:13) just even try. She like had one one thing to say, and they're like, You're not a part of this. Like you you're you're too new. Ian (40:20) It's like when you get in trouble as a kid and your parents are discussing the consequence and you're like, what's what's gonna happen? What's the punishment gonna be? And they're like your mom and I will talk about or your parent and I will talk about it or what you know, whatever the family structures, we'll talk about it. We'll let you know what happened. That's kinda the vibe that it gave of like Tori (40:38) Yeah, she's she was like, Your opinion is not needed here. I thought that Ian (40:41) No, no. Tori (40:42) was really funny. Ian (40:43) it was a wild scene. I was I was very lost by the end. I was trying to keep up with who was we'll call it like triangulating, right? The idea of bringing other Tori (40:54) Yes. Ian (40:55) people into our arguments and then you another term that is often heard in therapy is like deep cross talking. Tori (41:02) yeah, just a bit. Just a bit. we'll probably use that term a lot this season. yeah, I don't even know if it's worth saying what everyone was fighting over. Cause it'll come up again, huh? Ian (41:13) Could we? Like we would have you and I have talked about this idea of getting like one of those, you know, like those boards that you can like pin Yes, where Tori (41:20) Like an evidence board. Yeah. Ian (41:22) you we would have to like draw strings of conflict Tori (41:25) I'll work on it. I'll work on it so that you can follow along. But yeah, from for Ian (41:28) I Tori (41:29) now we'll just take that as the the failed apology brunch. Ian (41:36) Opera my B. Tori (41:38) Yes. Ian (41:38) that was a terrible dad joke. Man, that was Tori (41:40) Ha ha ha. Ian (41:41) I mean I you know, like in terms of like coming up with it, but man, I hope that not embarrassed lots of people. Tori (41:48) But we'll keep it in. That's your same risk aversion. Just like Whitney making her bad jokes. Ian (41:54) Hey, if Lisa B can go up and ski down, I can make a bad joke and live with it. Tori (41:59) How about how about if Lisa can say that Miley Cyrus ain't no sang ain't no mountain? Ian (42:05) I looked at Courtney and I was like, did I hear that correct? Tori (42:08) I was dying. my gosh, she's so funny. Like that was so off, but in the best way. Ian (42:15) Like I think well, I think a part of me too with this this

conflict of reality TV is like I don't I don't like the idea of laughing at people. Tori (42:26) Yeah. Ian (42:27) Do I do it? Sure, I'm I'm human, but I don't like the idea of watching something to laugh at somebody. So I think knowing that they can like find humor in themselves, I don't feel like I'm laughing Yeah, at them Tori (42:37) You're allowed to. They're par they're in on the joke. They're in on the joke. say. Ian (42:42) and if that's who they are, I mean I don't think that's performative in the sense like I don't think you'd coach somebody to be funny and then poke humor at themselves. I think that's a genuine, you know, sort of thing that they do and so that has been reassuring to me that like I'm not you know, even as I think about this podcast, like I don't wanna come on here and be like, I laughed at this thing and these girls are all super serious about it and then so it's like okay, I'm coming off as you know Tori (43:06) No, but sometimes sometimes the more ridiculous things that they say, that's what they end up getting like remembered or known for. Like Ian (43:14) Yeah. Tori (43:14) in a complimentary, kind of like iconic meme kind of way. You know, like Ian (43:18) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (43:20) so I think they're fine with being ridiculous 'cause if it catches on then it just it just again adds to the humor. Ian (43:28) I mean the the Twido or Instagram bio of like I don't take things from a frog like is gold. Like that might be my that might be my tagline for next time. Tori (43:35) Yeah, so funny. She was so she was so short that it came from frogs too. That was so funny. Ian (43:43) didn't even question it. It was so funny. to hear them talk about like what happens when you take out a loss. So funny too, of like you're you're okay with like puking and pooing in front of you. Tori (43:56) Yeah, they're really, yeah, again, no they're not holding back. Ian (44:00) No, it's great. It's great. I found it I found it more entertaining. in full disclosure, since I do know my wife's your phone number, I did ask three times how much time was left. Tori (44:13) Yeah. Ian (44:15) and I was I hit the twenty minute mark going strong. and then I about what I thought was another twenty minutes passing, about ten minutes later, I was like, How much is left? There's another ten minutes, but I was like, it's only been ten. Tori (44:26) Well, and you know they save all the good conflict for the end, 'cause they do like and that's Ian (44:30) Yeah. Tori (44:30) just kind of how they structure a lot of them anyways, is they you gotta kind of catch up with everyone, especially since they were introducing the friends and Ian (44:35) Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Tori (44:38) seeing like where they're at. And then once they're all together, that's when it gets crazy. Now, next week what we have to look forward to is the first cast trip. So there's always trips in a season. so this first one, they're going to San Francisco for Saint Patrick's Day. Ian (44:55) They did talk about this. Okay. Tori (44:56) Yep. So that will be next week. So picture all of this, but traveling as well. and then it's gonna be St. Patrick's Day. So of course, you know, there's gonna be plenty to talk about. But yeah, there's usually at least like one usually two cast trips. So the fact that they're doing a cast trip like in the, you know, third episode, they might be going somewhere else. But first cast trip. So we've got so much more to cover come next week, but this was a more stereotypical episode just so for you to expect it as well. Ian (45:30) you know, I think the contrast last time was good, but this is more of what I expected. And I think, Tori (45:32) Yeah, yeah. Ian (45:34) you know, I've been pleasantly surprised by the humor and, you know, some of the things that have come up and, you know, just the intricacies of of all of the different ways that you know, l I'm learning a lot about reality T V. I'm, you know, I'm I'm learning Tori (45:45) Quickly. Ian (45:45) about yeah, it's been very interesting. So I I appreciate you as always overthinking with me and Tori (45:51) Yes. Ian (45:52) really filling in where I'm underthinking. And by that I really mean I just don't know enough about these women and yeah Tori (45:56) You just don't know. You don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Ian (45:59) And you are helping me when I am underthinking to overthink it a little bit more. So I appreciate that. So I can't wait to overthink with you. And if you would like to overthink with us for season seven, episode three of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, we would love to have you. And I will say, this is the last thing, The views in Salt Lake when they were at whose house was it that they were showing? Tori (46:24) the yeah. Ian (46:25) Gorgeous. Tori (46:26) Yeah. Yeah. I mean this Ian (46:27) Why my gosh, I was like Tori (46:29) this is a whole nother topic, but yes, the Ian (46:32) Mm. Tori (46:32) like when you watch reality TV, there's a certain level of the escapism, right? 'Cause you're watching other people's conflicts. But in Ian (46:37) Yeah. Sure. Tori (46:39) Housewives Worlds, what's nice is like just watching like the some of the luxury. It's like, that's very cool that that exists or that you have that or whatever it is. So yeah. Ian (46:47) Yeah. And just the backdrop of Utah was really cool. I d I don't know. Tori (46:51) Right, right, right. Ian (46:53) So Tori (46:54) All right, okay. Next week Saint Patrick's Day.