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Speaker 1:
0:00
It takes courage, I think, to do that, to step out of the good time. Sam, I'm gonna rain on the cradle that remind you that your mom and I are separated and we're not reuniting. That's why we have this living situation. The Kathleen was probably better at confronting issues, better at the stuff I am.
Speaker 2:
0:15
Yeah, I'd probably inserted it, Maybe somewhere in the middle. There's a good middle ground here, but I definitely made a point of when I would come back into the house. How was it? How was dinner with dad? How's everybody doing? I took their temperature a lot. So, yeah, I think somewhere in between those two is probably a good approach. But I do think that you have to bring it up, even if they don't respond. A lot of times I would say something and one would go to his room, the other don't check out, and that's fine. But it felt like at least I'm bringing it up.
Speaker 3:
0:43
Chris, dare I say you were a Disneyland dad. Did you have a little bit of fun, dad, going on there, chris?
Speaker 1:
0:52
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
0:57
Hi, jen Hi.
Speaker 4:
0:58
Allison. How are you today? I'm great. How are you? I'm good, I'm hot, me too.
Speaker 3:
1:04
And not the good way. That's exactly what I was going to say not in the good way. So Jennifer and I have been very excited about this next hour we're going to talk because we have a couple of guests, not one, but two guests. We stumbled across Chris and Kathleen looking we were trying to find resources for co-parenting, because that's what we talk about and I stumbled across Kathleen's profile and did a double take and had to read it about three times before I realized what I was reading and she was kind enough to respond to me and we had a lovely conversation with her and her husband, chris. You are married now, right? I read about the wedding and the barn in the book. They wrote a book about a co-parenting model framework I don't know what you want to call that about nesting. The book is called the Nesting Experiment Two Divorces, seven Kids and Six Years of Uncomfortable Cohabitation which the title alone. I'm like I got to read that and I did read it and I got to tell you I'm really excited to have this conversation because I learned a lot. I learned a lot from this book and you were right, it was a really easy, quick read and so we're thrilled to have them on our show today.
Speaker 4:
2:23
I have questions, I'm sure, jennifer has questions and I'm just so excited. I feel like we finally found people in a situation weirder than ours. Like all the times we get the look and the questions and the oh my God, that's so weird. And having lived with that for what six years now that reaction from people, I felt like finally I was able to give that reaction. So I'm really excited.
Speaker 3:
2:55
So welcome, Chris and Kathleen to our small but mighty show. We're super excited you're here. Yes, why don't we start off? If you want to introduce yourselves before we get into the good stuff? Tell us a little about yourselves and what you're working on. And, Kathleen, I know you're working on a lot of stuff. So what's up guys up there in New York? A flooding. Hello, Jennifer.
Speaker 2:
3:18
Hi Alton, it's Kathleen, excited to be here. Well, first of all, I work with families parents on divorce Kathleen, helping them through those sort of really trying times. I work on a lot of parenting agreements, so that's kind of where a lot of the ideas was. So the book came from. But I myself have three kids 25, 21 and 16, girl, boy, boy, and yeah, this is the first. We're going up on our first year anniversary of actually co-habitating in this, hauling Connecticut right.
Speaker 3:
3:52
That's right, we will get to that.
Speaker 1:
3:56
So yeah, so I'm Chris. I have four kids and now three step kids, was married for 21 years the first time and met Kathleen after being single about a year and what I had experienced so far, so took me a while to pop the question. So we got married four years ago but, as she said, we were shoveling back and forth between two different houses for the past three years, ditched those houses last year to consolidate here in Connecticut. It's been awesome. So far. We've got the place, rebuilt the house in a way, so our kids feel like I'm just playing space and we both work out of the house. I'm a manufacturing guy, but it's a stuff for when we don't stumble on each other. We're in my office today. Since I was a Navy, it's got all my I love me stuff in the back wall there, chris, I love how you say I was in the Navy, you were a little more than in the Navy.
Speaker 4:
4:48
I'm a dad love about that. Yeah, that is a downplay. If ever I've heard one, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:
4:57
And thank you, by the way, thank you for your service. So I don't know if you picked up on this, jen, but I picked up on it. You've been married for four years. You're coming up on your one year cohabitating anniversary, which means the first three years of your marriage. You did not live together, right, and we were together for 10 years doing the commute. Yeah, Doing the commute. So let's just start off by saying can you please explain the core concept of nesting for those in our audience who may not be familiar with it?
Speaker 2:
5:32
So the idea around nesting and it actually is a legal term, but the idea behind it is that the children of the divorced parents stay in the home and one of the parents primarily stays there with them while the other parent comes and goes. So the sort of traditional divorce right is that mom gets a house and dad gets a house and the kids shuttle back and forth and for many reasons that we can get into, Chris and I separately did this with our exes, where I had the main house, and with my three kids, and then my ex-husband would come in and I would leave. So I might go away for the weekend, he might
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come in on Wednesday. But the idea behind it is that you're focusing on the children and they are not moving. It's the parents who are moving back, shoveling back and forth.
Speaker 3:
6:24
So I mean, I know the answer to this because I again, I'm very proud of myself because I read the book, because I always say I'm going to read the book and then I never read the book.
Speaker 4:
6:32
Right, jen, it's true, it's a pattern, it's to have a lot of.
Speaker 3:
6:35
but look behind me. But your ex in general the ex may have their own home and then they're going to move into your home where the kids live for the weekend or whatever time schedule you're on. And then where did you go? Because you did this every weekend, it wasn't an alternate. Your ex, their dad, came in every weekend, right, pretty much.
Speaker 2:
7:02
I mean we did a whole mishmash of things because when I divorced my kids were super little, a three-year-old, four-year-old. Understanding a weekend was hard. So we started with a Friday night where he would come in and I would leave, and then we did grow it in the weekends he also came over for dinners. So where did I go with such a good question? I lived a couple of different places, but that was probably for me the most difficult part, because I might be sort of at Mopey at a friend's house, you know, sleeping in her guest room. I was really lucky when I lived in New York City that my mom and dad had sort of a pietta tear and I would go there and sort of just stare at the walls and then when Chris and I started dating, I would primarily go see him and meet up with him, but that was a commute.
Speaker 3:
7:46
Four hours and five minutes, not that you were counting.
Speaker 1:
7:51
Yeah, to be fair, for the first couple of years I didn't have that because I was living in Pennsylvania. So my kids lived with my ex-wife near Syracuse in the time. And right about the time we got separated I took a job it was about two hours away and I would do the reciprocal. I would come home Friday night or Saturday morning, my ex would leave out and I would stay in that you know what was had been our house, and then Monday morning get the kids on the bus, drive to work.
Speaker 3:
8:17
And you did this for how long?
Speaker 1:
8:19
She's four years in Pennsylvania and then I ended up getting a job back in Central New York.
Speaker 3:
8:26
Did it for another three years, seven, yeah, seven years. So one thing I'd like to point out is I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, oh God, seven years, that's a lot. Yeah, that's exactly what we ask our kids to do. Now they're not doing the driving and the planning and the coordinating and all of that, but we think about doing it ourselves and we get this feeling of F that I'm not, I'm cleaning it up for today. You notice I'm being good F that I'm not doing that that's a lot, but we have our kids do that and I so admire you both for your commitment to this. Because that is hard, and I'll be the first I don't think nesting would have worked for Scott and I. Jen, you can feel free to pipe in knowing what you know. I don't think that would have worked for us for a variety of reasons, but there are things I pulled out that you did and still do that I wish I would have known about before In our situation. Scott moved to Houston after we separated practically and when he would come up every other weekend he would go to his brother and sister-in-laws and they had a loft with two bedrooms, a bathroom and a little living area and they would stay there for the weekend, which was wonderful because they got to spend time with their aunt and uncle and all of that and it worked out. But I'm thinking we would have been perfect for that if we could have figured it out, because the weekends he had the kids. I was in grad school, so I could have easily gone to grad school and slept at my mom's who lives a minute away and then that would have alleviated a lot of the back and forth and Scott and all that Like. There are scenarios where that could work. I love your Sunday dinner. I don't remember which one who does the Sunday dinners. Is that you, kathleen? Yeah, sunday dinners every night your ex came over for a family dinner and the thing that stood out at me most as I was reading the book is you talk about family dinners and family holidays and that family, as you define it, at least as I read it in the book, at least early on was you, your ex and the children. So you kept this sense of family, because to your kids that is family. I have a pet peeve about the term blended family because most people when they talk about blended families, they talk about it from the perspective of them. Well, I'm a stepmom, this is my husband, I have children and his children, and we are all a blended family and we get frustrated with the kids because they don't view it as a blended family and the reason that is because it's not their entire family. We're leaving out someone very important to them and that is their other parent. I really admired that and some of the things that you were able to do, and the fact that you found each other and started dating during all of this. I mean, that's the universe saying hey, you two need to be together, because that you were both doing the same thing, and I went look where is it. I wrote it down this morning when I was having coffee, so it's on a napkin. I apologize, but I looked up. How many groups are out? There's a group for everything. How many groups are out there for nesting? Do you know? Have you looked Well?
Speaker 2:
11:43
not in a while. The last we looked, there were zero.
Speaker 3:
11:45
There's one, okay, there's one group, and there are 544 members. Wow, that's it. And this is such a wonderful if you can figure it out. It's so great for your kids. Anyway, I've talked too much. Chris, you mentioned going back to your house on the weekends and in
the book you talk about it being. It would have been better for you psychologically to have your kids on neutral ground, but you chose the harder path because it was easier on your kids. And in there you said I learned to treat my old house as if it were a relatives. I was familiar with it but no longer comfortable in it. Ha ha, that had to be hard, and my question is I have two questions about that Did your kids ever pick up on that discomfort?
Speaker 1:
12:33
No, you know, part of this whole good stall, I think in nesting is not imposing your feelings on some 14 or 15 year old who has pretty big feelings on her own right. So no, I didn't bring that up with them. And is that what I think? Wasn't it till my daughter read the draft of the book that she realized it?
Speaker 4:
12:50
was oh wow.
Speaker 1:
12:51
That's what we want. This check writer in Milan Kondura, who wrote during the time of the Iron Curtain and he used to talk about if you were a party member that fell out of favor. It earbrushed you out of the picture, so there'd be 14 officials in the gap and you knew last year that you know you were in that gap, Mr. Finances in that gap and you've been earbrushed out. And every time I come back to the house, of course my ex-wife was like why don't I look at a picture of my ex-wife? And you know so, the picture that used to be us, you know, yoskela Lake, tahoe, was now, you know, one of the kids with the dogs, and every time I showed up I felt like I was being earbrushed out a little bit more, less and less the house I'd lived in for 21 years, you know.
Speaker 3:
13:27
Yeah, because as adults we have emotional needs, we have things that we need to be able to move on emotionally. And I read that and I was like that would have been really hard to come back into the home that you shared and you do mention the pictures in the and I was like I never thought about that. But you know, that's one of the things I did. I did a sweep. I did a sweep, I wanted to make it my home and the thing I forgot when I did that is I made it less their home. When I did that, because I just like the blended family, I eliminated someone that was very important to them. So, jennifer, I committed I need to get more of our family pictures up there, and that includes you. So I made that. That is one thing I learned and I'm gonna change that. I'm gonna put some pictures out.
Speaker 4:
14:14
We need to do a family photo shoot, and by family photo shoot I mean all five of us.
Speaker 3:
14:19
Okay, as long as the dogs aren't in there because the read the text string and our family text. Those dogs are more family to Scott than his children, but that's another episode.
Speaker 4:
14:29
I know that's another episode, but I was gonna say, chris, like that part of the book, like I don't think I'm speaking out of school if I say this and kind of talk on Scott's behalf. But I know when Scott and I were dating Alison that was a story he shared with me about after you guys were initially separated he would just walk into the house and wouldn't knock and would plop down on the sofa because it was what he was used to and what was comfortable for him. And I know the two of you had a discussion where you asked him to please not do that anymore. You kind of needed that boundary and he did share with me that. At first his feelings were really hurt by that, but then when he took a step back and had a, he understood why and, I think, respected it. But I also know now we're in a different place than we were after that initial separation. Now sometimes we do just call you and say we're coming over and barge right into the house and plop down on the sofa, like both of us do it now, and I don't think it is as big a deal now and, alison, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but those wounds aren't quite as fresh and raw, so it's not as big a thing. And that led me to a question I had, chris and Kathleen, that kind of came up for me as I was reading the book. Are there people where maybe initially you would recommend or would find that maybe nesting's not a good idea, maybe that first year, but after everybody's maybe healed a little bit and is feeling a little better about things that could work down the road? Or at that point is that the horse is out of the barn and there's no going back and everybody kind of needs to stay on their separate path. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 1:
16:16
There's a chapter in the book about that, because you can imagine there's people constantly approaching us saying, hey, we heard you did this, we'd like to do it too. And you think, weren't you the one who burned your husband's car last week? We did a chapter on what makes a good candidate for nesting, and I think one essential thing is the person from whom you are separated is someone you're comfortable walking around in your house when you're not there, which is a limiter for a lot of people because they were angry or destructive or they you know. We say specifically if your ex-partner is addict or is stolen from you, you have to have this basis of trust with your ex to have them living in your house when you're not there, and that's a struggle, that's a big obstacle for you. You're probably not a good candidate for an esting. Do you ever thought on that heavily?
Speaker 2:
17:10
Yeah, I agree. I mean I think from my and it's interesting hearing Chris this is why the book was so fun to write, because you know he would be from his point of view and I'd be like, oh no, no, you have no idea what it's like to have your ex.
Speaker 3:
17:23
Right, Because it was your home that your ex came into and Chris. You went into your ex's home and you mentioned like you had less privacy, Kathleen, than Chris did, because your ex-wife wasn't coming into your home at any point in time.
Speaker 2:
17:41
Right. So then you know. So it was really interesting writing
the book and hearing these different you know, hearing Chris's vantage point and kind of putting my ex in that place and maybe it would be difficult for him to come in for a number of reasons. But I think, as far as your question, jennifer, like who's not a good candidate? Without getting into all the details and everything, we all come with difficult baggage, otherwise we wouldn't have been going through a divorce. Right For those that I've worked with that just are not ready to let that go. You know that are just really going to come in and look around. Even for me it was difficult with my ex because he would come in. He was really looking around like, oh, did you get a new this or did you get a new that? I was like, no, I don't want you to know that I bought a new sofa or whatever. I did had to really talk it out and come to an agreement, and part of that agreement also was giving the heads up to your point about coming in. I need to know you're on your way or you're about to be here. You don't get to just come and open the door. So there are all these sort of gradations of nesting and you don't have to go all in and do it all and give your home away for the weekend. For people who are listening, thinking I'm never going to do that, but I do think there might be really small ways. Like, maybe you don't want them in your house for the weekend, but you might be able to have them at your dining table.
Speaker 4:
18:56
Yeah, that is such a great point, kathleen. Is that nesting? There's different shades of it and there's different ways to do it. Like Alison, I would even argue we did last year for spring break, before our oldest was headed off to college. I think we all kind of got hit with this realization of oh my gosh, like just in a practical sense, it's probably the last time the kids are going to have spring break at the same time that they're going to be on the same school schedule and historically we've always had the kids for spring break and gone somewhere or done something. But we thought, since this was our oldest senior year spring break and our last opportunity, wouldn't it be great if we actually did something truly as a family? And so all five of us went on spring break together it was me and Scott and Alison and the kids and we did because we didn't. I didn't want to cheat.
Speaker 3:
19:55
There was a lot of wine, but there was a lot of wine, and with us there always is a lot of wine. There's always a lot of wine, but yeah matter of how the trip went.
Speaker 4:
20:06
But yeah, and I know there were people that thought that was crazy, but I feel like that for us was kind of a little baby step of nesting. We went on a family vacation and when I say family vacation it was all five of us, because we realized that was probably the last time we were going to have an opportunity to do that and I don't think any of us wanted to miss it and I don't know how anybody else felt. I thought it was great. I really had a
good time.
Speaker 3:
20:35
Jen and I thought it was great. Jen and I did not leave that house once. We sat out outside by the fire table drinking wine and Scott, who can't sit around all day, he just he would go take the kids to putt run to the grocery store. Like he took the kids off our hands. Jen and I had a lovely vacation together. It was great. But you bring up a good question, though, and that is Christmas. Because you don't spend Christmas together?
Speaker 2:
21:05
We do not. Actually, this year was the first year we spent Christmas together. So up into this year, yes, I spent it with my kids and my ex-husband, and Chris spent it with his kids and his ex-wife, and people are like their heads were exploding. They're like that is ridiculous, you should never give that up, and all that kind of stuff. And both of us came down the same page, which is like okay, what is Christmas about? Actually, more about the kids than it is about us Selfishly. Our situations are a little different in that when I divorced, my kids were very young, so, selfishly, I did not want to miss Christmas. The option is I either get them every other Christmas or figure something out, and what Chris and I quickly landed on is it kind of is just today and he and I can which we did go away every year, new years and spend time together. We just didn't have that exact day. Yeah right.
Speaker 4:
22:00
I know that on the surface that might seem shocking to people, but I was kind of thinking about it like, honestly, to one degree or another, every family has to deal with this. When you get married, you have to decide are we going to my parents, are we going to your parents? Are we going to do it at our house separately and go see them different days? I mean it, just that whole idea of how are you going to do Christmas really opened up for me. Even more broadly, how do we define family? What is family? And like it may be a little bit unusual for people because you're talking about a primary marital relationship here, but we all have to juggle that to some extent as our families grow, as people get married, I mean I think about, like, at some point our kids are probably going to be in relationships with people and don't say Jen.
Speaker 3:
22:55
Okay, don't say I'm not ready, don't even go there.
Speaker 4:
22:58
That's not the show we may not see them on Christmas Day, but that doesn't mean we still don't have Christmas right.
Speaker 3:
23:04
Nope, my kids Santa's still coming, so I know my money's on my house. The point being is.
Speaker 4:
23:10
Our families are always evolving and changing and growing, and so our traditions and how we do things sometimes have to adapt and change and grow as well. And it's interesting that in this one particular relationship, in this one particular area, we're so caught up in how it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to look that it just is mind boggling to people just even entertaining some other vision of that right.
Speaker 1:
23:42
We've got inhabit now that we're entrenched here posting the big holidays and we'll invite X's family members. You know partnering partners. Everybody frets about it in advance and once we get there, everything's fine. There's 20 people on their own.
Speaker 3:
23:56
No no, he had some wine, allison, I was just about to say don't look at me, how much wine is there? I know there's wine. I know there's wine, maybe even some bourbon at that one. It was interesting reading your kid's perspective on the whole thing. Let's say to Jen's point the horse is out of the barn. You didn't nest right after the divorce. You don't have that kind of relationship with your ex. I would highly encourage you to get this book and, if you'd read nothing else, read the chapter about what the kids had to say, because I think it will give. It gives incredibly, I mean first of all, insightful, mature and well written. You should both be very proud of your daughters and your son, who took the time to write one Very astute, I thought and you can get a really good perspective of what kids think in the moment and what's going through their heads in the moment while all this stuff is happening, and then, once they've been able to level up 10, 20,000 feet and look back on it, how they perceive it, I think it's really important that adults understand how this impacts your kids and their perspectives, because they joke, as you mentioned. They joke with you all the time and call you out for some of the shitty stuff. They are very good and ours are too. We get reminded on the daily, but they remember that stuff and I remember stuff from my parents divorce, so how do you want to be remembered is a lot of what that has to do with. As I was reading this book, I was thinking about, I think, a lot about identity and how nesting might play out with a stay at you know I like to flip flop the gender roles, but let's stay. Stay with societal expectations. A stay at home mom and a dad with maybe a you mentioned your ex has a demanding job, maybe they travel all the time, maybe they have not been the primary caregiver of the children. So much of our identities are mistakenly so, in my opinion tied to what we do instead of who we are, and so I'm curious I know you've talked to other. You both have talked to other couples who have considered nesting and want to learn more about nesting. I'm curious to see how does this tend to play out with a couple who maybe one parent and you talk about this a little bit one parent had, let's call it, 90% or 85% of the parenting responsibility and the other parent had 10 to 15%, and now they try to go 50, 50, or even, through nesting, they try to go 60, 40. What are some of the challenges they need to think about, like a dad who hasn't had to do the day to day or worry about homework or any of those things. Or the mom who has to give up control while her kids are with their dad and
doesn't have that. You know, I'm trying to say how does that play out? How do you see that playing out in other relationships you're aware of?
Speaker 2:
27:01
Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, for me it was really difficult because I had to give up okay, what are they eating over there and are they getting enough sleep, and all that sort of thing. And I was at the time a stay-at-home mom who had been doing 98% right. So that was really for me. I had to give up a lot of different ideas of what I thought things were going to look like. But it's interesting, sort of the advice. And then, speaking with you know families that I work with suddenly everyone wants it to be even. They're like, well, I'm not going to do that anymore and he's going to have to figure this out. And I would always remind people that it's really you just have to keep bringing it back. Is it about you or is it about the kids? Do you want to pay back your ex because you're so annoyed with him that you're not going to explain to him that your child really likes to go to sleep this way? Or you know some routine that they might not know about. And I would often get accused of being sort of too nice or too soft, but I really kept bringing it back. It's about free individuals. It's not really about me or my ex. So, yes, I am actually going to explain to him how the cinnamon and sugar on the toast goes, because that's going to make my son really happy and, I think, a lot of. When I work with parents, it's about what is really important to you, like figure out the things that you really really care about and can you let go of some of the other things. If you're always trying to school your ex and make him, you know, figure things out on their own because you feel like that's what they deserve, it's actually the children who are going to be suffering as they're sitting there with, like, the wrong bathing suit or whatever the situation is. Yeah, it's so hard, so challenging, because isn't that response to be like, yeah, I'm not doing anything, I'm not picking?
Speaker 3:
28:48
my figure for that guy. Yeah, it is hard, it is hard, but there are some situations where you could have told him exactly how to put the cinnamon sugar on the toast. In that, trying to be in that mindset, and the person receiving that insight is going to be like, well, I'm going to put the cinnamon sugar on the toast. However I want to put it on the toast, I don't give a shit. I'm not like right, like I mean, who's she to tell me right? All that stuff we cannot get out of our own way. We cannot.
Speaker 4:
29:18
Alison me was really the biggest takeaway about this is that the only way this works is if both of the parents are 100% committed to. I know, alison, we like to say parking their shit at the door. It's not that you don't have those feelings or resentments or even fair and legitimate concerns, but everybody has got to park that and really focus on the kids first. The person saying this is how you put the cinnamon sugar on the toast needs to be really focused on. I'm doing this because it's going to be the best thing for my kid. And the person receiving the information needs to be like what I need to park my stuff and really listen to how to put the cinnamon sugar on the toast because it's in the. It's the best thing for my kid. And the second you start bringing your own stuff. In relation to that other person, as your ex spouse, it probably gets really challenging. But if you can stay like just laser beam focused on the kids, I got that sense after reading. That's really the key to making this work.
Speaker 1:
30:33
I think in some ways it's a forcing mechanism to make you be respectful of your ex. If I'm going to live in my ex's house, I can't be drashing our argument with her. You know her, both of us. I think it made us a lot more thoughtful about what we said, how we replied to emails.
Speaker 3:
30:51
Chris, you would come home on your weekend and go up and spend time with your kids individually and connect before you went into the weekend. Can you talk about that in the book? And one of the things that I thought of when I was reading that was the importance of transitions, how so much of the angst and frustration we have as single parents whichever parent you are is the transition, the bulk of that battle that we have internally and with our kids. We're okay in the moment when our kids are with us. It's the transitions that we struggle with, and so part of that in a traditional scenario is you've got a kid that's coming from mom and going to dad and coming from dad and going to mom, and that's the quote unquote typical situation. But in nesting you mentioned, you talk about how kids can be insulated from that because they don't have the transition you do when the adults transition, I think we're obviously better equipped in many ways to handle that, and so is there anything you would do differently, knowing what you know? Now, because you talk about how you wondered do my kids really understand this? Is this confusing for them? Maybe they have a perspective that maybe you haven't considered. How do you ensure the kids really understand the new dynamic between mom and dad, when they are not the ones transitioning?
Speaker 1:
32:13
I think in my case I kind of hid from it a little bit. I think we were all in on the scam because when I was with the kids on the weekends we didn't want to talk about unpleasant things. We wanted to have fun, have good meals, watch good movies, treat it like it was almost like a vacation and it was intellectually dishonest for me and it probably delayed the kids coming to terms really with what was going on, almost like Uncle Virgil died. But we don't talk about Uncle Virgil. So what I wish I'd done differently is found time every weekend to just insert a little reminder hey, I'm really glad that we're spending this time together. Mom and I are not together.
We're not going to be together. We take courage, I bet, to do that, to step out of the good time and say I'm going to rain on the cradle that remind you that your mom and I are separated and we're not reuniting. That's why we have this living situation. The Kathleen was probably better in front of me. She's better at this stuff than I am.
Speaker 2:
33:13
Yeah, I'd probably inserted it, maybe somewhere in the middle. There's a good middle ground here but I definitely made a point of when I would come back into the house. How was it? How was dinner with dad? How was everybody doing? I took their temperature a lot. So, yeah, I think somewhere in between those two is probably a good approach. But I do think that you have to bring it up, even if they don't respond. A lot of times I would say something and one would go to his room and the other, you know, check out, and that's fine. But I felt like at least I'm bringing it up.
Speaker 3:
33:42
Chris, dare I say that you were a Disneyland dad, disneyland guy. Did you have a little bit of fun, dad, going on there, chris?
Speaker 1:
33:51
Yeah, I might have to own it.
Speaker 2:
33:55
But let's just also point out that you have transitioned from a Disneyland dad. You've got learned a lot.
Speaker 1:
34:01
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
34:01
And we all do. I joke because the flip side of the Disneyland dad is the control freak mom, and that's where I was and we talk a lot about. That are not one but two episodes Fun dad. It took two for me to get it out, but I got real frustrated with Scott because he was fun dad and it occurred to me that I get them most of the time and so if I only saw my kids a couple of days a month here, damn right, I'd be fun, because I wouldn't want to spend that time being a disciplinarian and doing all that stuff. I got myself over that hump and I'm glad to hear you got yourself over that hump too, chris.
Speaker 4:
34:44
It is interesting. It's like everybody's trying to find some balance in these new roles, right? So it's almost like at the beginning, people move to the extremes and it's just and grossly generalizing. But it feels like the dads move to the fun extreme and the mops move to the control extreme, and the trick is figuring out over time how everybody gets more.
Speaker 2:
35:11
Yeah, and again over generalizing and with jewelry, at a time the mom is with the kids more and the dad is coming in and out, so that's one issue. So whichever parent is spending more time, I think becomes the control one. But I was actually just speaking to a client about this yesterday and that, reminding her that, yeah, these are really rough times when you've got to handle everything, but on the other hand, you're getting this window into your kids and not to rub it in Chris's face, but he's felt this loss a little bit. You know, I got to see them and see all these moody, difficult situations with them, but I'm glad that I did and I think
you have to look at it. I think looking at it is okay. I am here all the time. They're driving me nuts. I've got a lot of responsibilities but I wouldn't have given that that's for anything.
Speaker 3:
36:00
That conflict builds intimacy.
Speaker 2:
36:02
Yeah, and then you have to think about the other person, that for Chris or for my ex, those are some a little bit of loss, as Chris has been. You're thinking, okay, how would I have done it differently and how can I insert that now?
Speaker 3:
36:13
I think it's really profound that when you wrote about that, chris, I was like oh wow, I wouldn't have that, would not have crossed my mind. So I thought that was very poignant. You let your kids know they're okay to be vulnerable.
Speaker 1:
36:27
As I say, you made an interesting point, though, with the control freak mom offset that has been the shape of your parenting relationship up to the separation that is going to say, well, I'm liberated from that. I'm not constrained by the way my ex-wife used to parent anymore, and you've also because you're at least in that first couple of years, even if you were on relatively good times. The last thing one parent wants to hear from their ex is parenting advice. You really should make Jenny wear socks when she goes out. Yeah, you know what?
Speaker 2:
36:59
She's not wearing socks at all this summer.
Speaker 1:
37:01
I think this is something for parents to be aware of. There's going to be a little bit of a void control void especially in that first year, because you're not parenting together the way you used to.
Speaker 3:
37:13
I have in my image attachment theory because I geek out on that. I know a lot of moms. When they lose that control, they push further, they push to grab, grab, grab it and all that does is make dad or their co-parent pull, pull and get away.
Speaker 1:
37:35
And it is not healthy.
Speaker 3:
37:36
It is not healthy and I'm in a lot of co-parenting groups online which I really need to dial back because there's so much toxicity in there. It's not a healthy place. I would say nine times out of 10, the posts that I see are about moms who are losing their minds because they don't have control and dads that are celebrating the fact that they have a little more control and they're doing all the fun stuff.
Speaker 1:
38:06
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
38:07
And I think it's normal. I think it's totally normal and you're absolutely right, chris. The tone of the relationship before the divorce carries over and gets magnified and multiplied, and that's where so many things break down. So fascinating. I'd like to know, kathleen, from your perspective. You mentioned you're working with a client right now in your coaching, in your work. This doesn't work for everyone and I will say, in those groups I have had some people. I've seen some people post about how can we make this work. I can't afford to find a new place. I can't afford to do that. How could we maybe not have so much transition for the kids? And I'm like you need to read this book. It's out there, it's a thing, but this doesn't work for everyone. So in your conversations with people who maybe think they could do it and they're blissfully unaware of all the challenges, you see the red flags very clearly, I'm sure, and you walk through. These are the things you need to watch out for. What do you say to people, how do you guide them, how do you get them to think through what it actually means, and when do you know to say this is probably not a viable option for you?
Speaker 2:
39:20
I think, from the beginning, you can look at if there's not an ability to mediate at all or use some kind of collaborative law, right? If so, if you're both just putting a stake in the ground and not budging, first of all, I'd say, because a lot of people come and they wanna do mediation, but that involves two people compromising, right? So from the beginning, if you're not seeing that compromising, don't even waste your money on mediation, just get right straight to the lawyers. But that also translates to the nesting idea, because if you are not gonna be flexible, both of you willing to compromise, it's really not going to work. So in the conversations when they may say, oh, I really want this so much, but my ex is refusing to come into the house, or I mean, that's an obvious one, right, yeah? They can pitch a tent out in the front yard, but that's gonna be hard, but if there are a lot of questions like what's gonna happen, and basically it's a comfort level. So if somebody's comfortable with it which is often the spouse that I'm speaking to like they'll call and say I wanna learn about nesting and I wanna do this. You really have to pay more attention to the other spouse and what they're willing to do, and if you see any resistance there, then I just move right into. Okay, what are some other ways? Maybe you can work on a Sunday dinner, maybe you guys can be at gains together, but coming in for the weekend is probably not gonna happen. So it's sad because lots of times I have to sort of, as Chris said, rain on the parade. But better to get that information up front.
Speaker 3:
40:59
Yeah, and going back to the control thing, if the dad is coming into the mom's home, like happened in both of your situations, the mom actually has a right to be a little controlling about her own space. So I can imagine if that dynamic exists it's only exacerbated and takes, frankly, a lot of surrender. And, chris, we're gonna talk about it in a minute five minute rules going on when you're dealing with that.
Speaker 2:
41:26
Yeah, and you do get to make rules right. It's not like, hey, come on in anytime you want, don't knock on the door, go through my stuff. So we're not saying you just either completely trust and let it go or you don't do it at all. But you do have to pay attention to people's comfort levels.
Speaker 4:
41:42
I imagine too, as difficult and disappointing as it may be to pop somebody's little balloon of hope about nesting at the beginning, it's better to do that rather than let them go down that path and have it blow up, go badly, because then that's gonna be a whole other set of issues and wounds and hurts and things. I imagine it would be very difficult to say, oh well, let's try it, and if it doesn't work out we'll just reel it back in, because in a way you are sharing space with your ex and that can be really challenging and set up for a lot of potential issues if you're not handling it right. So it probably is something. If you see some red flags, if you have some doubts, it may be better to step away from it or wait a little bit till maybe you're in a different, when the two of you have a different post-divorce relationship with each other and maybe can talk about giving it a try at that point.
Speaker 2:
42:52
Yeah, remember, I always say don't tell your kids this setup. Yet Don't say, hey, your dad's gonna do nesting for the next 18 years, Just that's the thing. Oh, dad's gonna be coming over. Just if you do wanna try some of that, just do it, but don't set out a plan, because guess who's gonna be the most disappointed.
Speaker 4:
43:13
Yeah, the kids for sure.
Speaker 3:
43:14
Kathleen, I'm curious when you're working with clients, part of the reason they're there talking to you is to figure out how to insulate, protect their children and create the best possible outcomes for them. So when you're working with clients, do you view the client as the client or, in the back of your head, are the kids the primary client in your mind?
Speaker 2:
43:35
100%. I'm thinking of the kids. I mean 90% of the time I'm thinking of kids. I do want the client to feel safe and supported and all that. But most of my conversations to your back from, I realize this feels like it's between the two of you and your ex, but let's think about how that decision would affect your children. Okay, you just got into this text battle with your ex on the phone. Let's leave it there, because what is that going to actually get you in result to your children? The thing that always remind people is it is really about the children. Even though it's the relationship between the soon to be exes, the effect is much, much more on the children and I often give them kind of Santa Claus scenario because the exes have been living in this world with this knowledge for so long. Even if it's subconscious, okay, something's not working, we're fighting, something's in conflict. Most of the time, kids have no idea, right? So it's like you're just springing Santa night by the way, kids, there is Santa Claus.
Speaker 3:
44:42
Santa Claus is alive and well.
Speaker 4:
44:46
I'm not sure how many kids are listening to.
Speaker 3:
44:51
I'm not worried about the kids, I'm worried about me. That's a lie. Santa's alive.
Speaker 2:
44:59
I'm just saying you can't assume that the environment you've been living in your kids are privy to. They are in a totally different world. Yeah, so many kids have no idea, even when parents are fighting. No, I know they're not gonna get divorced, so you just have to always. I think you keep that. Their reality and your reality are two different places.
Speaker 3:
45:19
Yeah, that's gonna ask a follow-up and I forgot it because I got very upset about Santa Claus.
Speaker 4:
45:28
Did we? What did it have Chris talk about the five-minute rule, but sure, I think we both found out in treating it.
Speaker 3:
45:37
I know what yes, and I know what I was gonna say. What I was gonna say Wasn't a question, it was Kathleen. You said something about it's the relationship between the parents, but ultimately it's the kids, and at the end of the day, if the kids weren't there, the relationship wouldn't matter, because the relationship would end and everyone would move on, and so the only reason the relationship matters nine times out of ten Is because there are children involved.
Speaker 2:
45:59
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:
46:01
And so that was my follow-up.
Speaker 1:
46:03
But yeah, let's hear about the five-minute rule, yeah one of the things you have to embrace if you're gonna be nesting is you can't be firing shots over the castle wall every time you're annoyed If you know you're not gonna see your spouse or depend on your spouse for anything in your time, you can afford to be. You flip it and aggressive. If I'm gonna be staying in my ex spouse's house, you know, friday night through Sunday night I have to walk delicately. So you in the times when I was getting an email or a message through a phone call that I thought Was crazy and I had a really good Report lined up to fire back out, to sit pause, then do something different for five minutes, I think it's a good practice, it's a good. I think it's a good practice in general with co-parent Expouses, whether you're nesting or not. But when you're nesting in particular, you really have to stifle those shots because the success of the experiment depends on being civil to each other in a big loop way and that's a reinforcing mechanism. I think I was more civil, and so was my ex-spouse, because we knew we're probably gonna bump into each other but certainly communicate each weekend. That's the principle, but sometimes it feels so good when you're separated to say all the things you've been sitting on for ten years. Oh yeah, will you remember that time? Here's what I thought. Just write down Target and when you do reply, say something really behind and save you trouble. Do anything else.
Speaker 2:
47:35
I think the writing down is really key, right? So yeah, and this is something I recommend is like go ahead and write the email. Don't write the text, because then we always send a bun-snack, but draft the text on an email or hand write it
or whatever, just so you can get all those ideas out and hire them off and be pissed off and all of that, and then go back and craft a little bit more of a sane and respectful Text or email.
Speaker 3:
48:01
I would like to offer a suggestion to all of our listeners and for those who have listened to us for anything Anytime at all. You know I geek out on AI and chat GPT, and now I'm into Claude too and all that. Okay, here's a really good tip Write down in a word document all the things you want to say and the point you're trying, you think you're trying to make, and Then copy that and paste it into your AI tool of choice and say here's what I want to say but I know this does not sound mature, thoughtful, caring and Like a responsible co-parent. Tell me what I should say instead, and it will tell you what to say. And then you copy that and you put that in the email. Save yourself some time. Let the machines do it. Let the robots.
Speaker 4:
48:50
I will say, because I'm laughing as you're saying, that what you said about you almost felt forced to be more civil because of the situation you were in, and I am laughing because I'm thinking about my First divorce where my why am I seeing first divorce like there's like seven? It's the only one I've had so far.
Speaker 1:
49:11
Oh my god.
Speaker 3:
49:11
I just caught myself, I'm showing, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, like how many are there gonna?
Speaker 4:
49:18
be, let's hope to God last, of course, we did not have children and I have made the observation since that divorce with Allison and other friends of mine that it probably would have been In some ways better had we had children, because I know I did and said something which we still have not discussed. That I felt perfectly free to do because I was like I could go scorched earth. We don't have kids, I don't have to, I don't have to maintain a relationship with this person, I don't have to cope here with this person. So I'm not even gonna try to act like a grown-up here. So to your point, chris, like when the circumstances dictate a certain level of behavior, it's amazing how we Rise or, in my case, sometimes fall To that level. It's a really interesting point.
Speaker 3:
50:19
I have one more question how do you explain this to a potential dating partner? You two were lucky because I know the universe brought you two together in a weird way, a wonderful way. But how do you? We? We checked the Facebook group. We talked about that. There's what 400 people in that group and there's only one of them on Facebook about nesting. I'll have to check the tick-tock. I haven't checked that. But how do you explain this Situation to a potential romantic partner?
Speaker 2:
50:55
So it's a good question and, by the way, most those people are in the UK.
Speaker 3:
50:59
If you haven't noticed on the Facebook page, I Did not notice that they're so much more progressive over there, aren't they, I guess?
Speaker 2:
51:08
though a lot of nesting going on in the UK Well, I would almost use it in the reverse is that this is a really good filter. Okay, I had dated before and few of them did not have children and Right away that became very clear that the person I and that with next has to have children. They have to have an understanding of what it is like, what my life is like, etc. So it was sort of a good filter in that way. The way I explained it was. This is what my ex and I do. We want the children not moving around and, yes, he comes in on Wednesday nights for dinner and yes, he comes in on the weekends and I leave and honestly, I got so many. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
51:56
I rolls eyebrow.
Speaker 2:
51:57
I rolls very expressive looks of confusion and Discussed, and so at that point it was just we're done, this is over, this is not gonna work. So there was a structure. I was like okay, maybe just I'm not gonna meet anybody for a while, but I just use it as a great sister.
Speaker 1:
52:16
It's like a I think broadly this may be controversial. If you are Divorce with kids in looking for a next partner and you are solely solving For your, your personal fantasies, it's probably it's not for the kids, right? I did. I had one day where I was going down that path and in the middle of the day I'm thinking how am I gonna introduce her to my kids like, this is just not gonna work. So I went back and whatever site I was on, I sort of said, okay, it's gotta be divorce mom with kids over 40.
Speaker 3:
52:50
That's the floor right, we all know what Chris is looking at across that table.
Speaker 1:
53:03
Much more understanding because they walk this path. When I said, hey, no, I can't go to this event on Friday because I have to go back and sleep in my ex-wife's house, the first response was, oh, you wouldn't do that if you were, unless you were really over her. So, no, I'm doing it because it's looks for my kids. It definitely ruled at least one relationship I was in where she just couldn't get her head around it.
Speaker 2:
53:27
So this is how it is. So, but to that point then I think down the line that's a person who's not gonna be trusting in general. So these are all characteristic, but you kind of want to avoid anyways, so it's good point can be difficult and it can feel really lonely because you, we still feel like we're. When we tell people, even today, what we've done, they look at us like we have foreheads. It is difficult, but I think in the end it is what you want to get to at some point, right? You don't want somebody who are gonna spend a ton of time with and then later on realize, oh my gosh, they're never gonna trust me or they're gonna always question when I'm having my ex in the house, right?
Speaker 1:
54:05
Yeah, I don't. One of these we thought about when we're writing that chapter was, if it sounds everybody like two unicorns met in a field full of Butterflies,
it's not helpful. I think, setting up these general principles that either you're solving your relationship for your fantasies or you're solving for a future relationship that's gonna work for your kids, that gets you, I think that gives you 75% of the way there. Timing, that will survive, that's. And then you just I think he just Communicate your intent right and make it sure if we understand on front, hey, this is the routine, this routine I'm gonna be pursuing. It shouldn't be a surprise to you.
Speaker 2:
54:39
We're no really romantic story about our third second date. Yeah, and I first shared his calendar with me. That was like the most romantic. I like just one, one of my kids, one. I'm traveling. I said, oh, this is so nice.
Speaker 3:
54:55
That's so nice. There were no questions.
Speaker 2:
54:59
Was a sign of commitment. It was a sign of coping communication. It was a sign of many things. It was actually very, very telling.
Speaker 3:
55:06
That's so nice, because what it did is it eliminated any potential assumptions and it closed the gap for the stories you could have started easily started telling yourself.
Speaker 4:
55:17
That's important and I'm actually thinking too, chris, that's so good what you said about the trust, because we've kind of talked about how some of the dynamics and nesting are maybe at an extreme end of a spectrum but in some ways they're really not that Different. And even if you're not nesting, I think so many times some of that jealousy or difficulty dealing with your partner having to engage with their ex is because of that lack of trust. And I to some degree, I think it's natural. I think what you said about look Like your cohort after you get divorced and you're dating is probably other divorced people and people who've been through a divorce, sometimes very justifiably, can have some trust issues. But when that trust isn't there with that new partner and they have to engage with their acts, that can be when things start to get off the rails. I think that's an interesting like we talk about that with nesting. That's a very extreme scenario of that. But, allison, even thinking about some of the situations you've described in some of those Co-parenting groups that you're engaging with, at the end of the day a lot of that difficulty comes down to that lack of trust.
Speaker 3:
56:40
Yeah, and to go back to Kathleen, what you shared about it being a, a filter, you have to have a high EQ to be able to To use your words, chris, wrap your head around that, I think. And you have to be really and it's not just about that, it's so many things, it's. Have you worked on your shit? Are you aware of your areas of opportunity? Because some people may not like that, but they may realize that's not a him issue, that's a me issue and I have some more work to do. And it's about communication and I'm also on a kick now or relationships. Everyone talks about communication and how important it is. I actually don't agree with that. I think communication is important. What's important is comprehension, and that's what we miss. So many people Communicate, communicate, but the people they're communicating to do not understand and comprehend what they're saying. And I think that all of that, tied up in a bow, is required in order to make this work. And that's just my two cents on that, anything else to share. This was so helpful and we had to re-record this whole half because we had technical difficulties. So we appreciate you coming back a second time, a third time, because we also did a third call, a beginning call, and yeah, we made this whole thing up just so Well it's just, it's fun the second time, that was the first.
Speaker 2:
57:58
Oh, you're so nice, you're so nice. Well, thank you. I'm glad we're so delightful as well.
Speaker 3:
58:02
Thank, you so nice. Well, thank you. I'm glad we're so delightful, otherwise you might not have let us finish our episode. And look, I don't think I swore one, did I? I don't think I did.
Speaker 2:
58:14
So anyway, thank you guys so much.
Speaker 3:
58:18
Thank you again. And Kathleen Brigham and their book is the Misting Experiment. If you are interested in working with Kathleen and learning more about what she does, your website is what Kathleen you can find it at Brigham Advising.
Speaker 2:
58:34
Just Google Brigham Advising and my email is Kathleen at Brigham Advisingcom and that's Brigham B-R-I-G-H-A-M.
Speaker 3:
58:39
Yep, and you can find me on Instagram too. Awesome, thank you both so much.
Speaker 4:
58:46
You've been listening to Every Other Weekend with Jen and Allison. You can follow Every Other Weekend podcast on Instagram and Facebook. If you haven't yet, subscribe, rate and review this podcast on Instagram and Facebook. Subscribe, rate and review this podcast on your favorite platform.
Speaker 3:
59:01
We'd also love to hear from you Email questions and comments to hello at eowpodcastcom. You never know when we'll be talking about you. Join us next week for another episode of Every Other Weekend. Thanks for listening.