Полная расшифровка выпуска Bek Condello

Ayala and my granddad worked at the steelworks there. And so both my dad and my mom had moved to go to ANU in Canberra and met there. My dad was a few years older than my mom. And so he had left uni. She was only still 19. And he got a job where the pastor of the cult worked. And that's kind of where they got their claws into my parents, obviously quite young, impressionable. I think I have a lot more grace to my parents' decisions now with my adult brain. I think I'm like, man, my mom was only nine to 18, 19 when she got involved. And they were basically told to cut off their family unless they joined the cult. And it was always sort of framed as, well, why would you want to be associating with unbelievers? Everything you want is in here. And I guess it kind of made sense. And I think when my parents joined, it maybe was a little bit of a healthier, maybe a bit controlling, but, you know, I definitely don't think it was a cult when they joined. I think that that insidious control happened over time. 00:03:43 Speaker 1: What do you think was lacking in their life that the cult attracted them? 00:03:48 Speaker 3: I don't know that anything was lacking. I think they were young. I think that my dad probably didn't have the greatest upbringing. I think my dad was also my mom's first boyfriend. You know, I think you're just very young and impressionable when it's your first time out in the big wide world. And And I don't necessarily know that something has to be lacking. I think the more time goes on, I think we are all susceptible in some way, maybe not a religious cult, but I think we all have the capacity if the right pressure point is pushed to be susceptible to being misled in some way. 00:04:19 Speaker 1: Did you meet your dad's parents? 00:04:22 Speaker 3: Uh, so because my grandparents never directly talked against the cult, they kind of had this thing where it was like, if they don't, if they don't directly say, you know, anything bad about it, there might still be hope that they can come along. So I met my grandparents once or twice, but we certainly didn't have a close relay. That was strangers to me. And ultimately my granddad died when I was 10, around 10. And they'd really didn't make much effort to keep my grandparents in our lives. 00:04:52 Speaker 1: Tell me about the Geelong Revival Centre. 00:04:55 Speaker 3: Yeah. So they're still running. They're all around Australia and actually around the world. It is a Pentecostal doomsday church, essentially. So... So. 00:05:07 Speaker 1: What does that mean? They predict the end of the world. Is that basically what doomsday means? 00:05:11 Speaker 3: But it could happen at any time and you just never know when it's going to happen. And so a lot of that is really controlled by fear. And so if you didn't pray properly this morning and God returned this afternoon, you're going to burn in hell. You know, like everyone you know and love is going to ascend to heaven and you're not going to make it.

And so it was just this constant, you just never know. And parents are told to hit their children from a very young age to basically, they kind of justified it by saying it was keeping, I guess, them in line and securing their souls in heaven. So the more you hit your child, it was almost the more guaranteed your child was of not leaving the church and making it to heaven. So yeah, my parents hit me quite a lot when I was a child. 00:05:51 Speaker 1: This is the sadness of your childhood. I mean, when you look back and reflect on that, are you not angry? 00:05:59 Speaker 3: I mean, I have so much that I could be angry about. I think for me, anger isn't really emotion that I feel very connected to. I think I'm very like, I like to look back and think about why people made the decisions they did. And I refuse to kind of let the rest of my life be dictated by what I've experienced in, you know, it doesn't mean to say that I never have a bad day or I never feel sad or I never get, you But for the most part, I have been super intentional about wanting to heal and just enjoy this second chance at life that I've been given. 00:06:33 Speaker 1: So you never really had a chance to have in-depth discussions with your mother or your father about why they joined? And how could they... It sounds to me people are conned into doing. 00:06:42 Speaker 3: It, but... I mean, for sure. And I definitely think, you know, I was really... the first generation of children born into there. There's been many generations now after me. And I definitely do think that when my parents joined, it was just a pretty closed off Christian community. I think it now is a cult, but I don't think it was that when they joined. And I do think it's only surviving now because they put so much pressure into young couples to get married young, to have babies young. You know, I think that if that wasn't happening, I think it would be a very quickly dwindling. I don't think they have tons of people joining these days, you. 00:07:15 Speaker 1: Know, What did your dad do? I mean, you said he went to university in Canberra. 00:07:19 Speaker 3: So he had a degree in forestry. So he worked, I think he worked for CSIRO for a little while, you know, like he did that kind of work. And my mum, it was kind of that generation where mums mostly were housewives. And that was very much encouraged by the church. And it was also very encouraged that people didn't get higher education. So My parents were probably, I mean, my mum quit her degree halfway through to get married. So it definitely wasn't encouraging people to get higher educated. It was very encouraging for people to keep blue-collar jobs, admin jobs, you know, not that there's anything wrong, obviously, with any of those jobs, but this was a way to keep people compliant. 00:07:57 Speaker 1: Your parents sound terribly harsh. You talk about the beating and the special wooden spoon that your dad made to smack you with. But it seems to me, though, that your father is the, has a hint of compassion in here, as you describe him, but he sort of falls in line with the demands of your mother. Am I reading that correctly? 00:08:18 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And I think for a long time I absolved my dad, even though he was the one who primarily hit me, he did it kind of at the whim of my mother's very arbitrary moods. And so I think I often felt sad for him because I often felt like he was kind of just as much bullied as But then I was like, you know what, actually he was an adult and I still think as a parent you have a duty to protect your children. And ultimately he took the road that was easiest for him instead of protecting his children and standing up to my mother. And, you know, in the cult, because it was patriarchal, even though my mum in our house was kind of the one that called the shots, ultimately if he had stood up to her, she would have had to comply. And he chose not to because it was easier for him to do what she wanted. 00:08:59 Speaker 1: You had a brother. Did your brother suffer the same? 00:09:03 Speaker 2: Consequences not no he was incredibly gifted um he was two years older than me and he was a lot more sort of quieter and reserved than I was and and also I think being a boy and I think you know I I hate to do that all my parents had a favorite but I. 00:09:19 Speaker 3: Definitely think he was the favorite um And he just kind of, he was very intelligent. I think he kind of just figured out how to avoid a lot of what I did. You know, I was curious and clumsy and I was a kid and I was bored and I asked questions and I did dumb things. And, you know, I stuck a bead up my nose once because I was just so bored. Like I... you know like I was homeschooled till I was 10 I didn't get to watch tv or cartoons I had no friends during the week like I only got to hang out with the Sunday school kids on the Sunday and I was just a bored lonely kid and I was just always getting into trouble and I was just so isolated from the outside world and you know especially as I started to get a little older, a lot of the kids that I grew up with, their families would eventually leave, or maybe they'd turn teenagers and they'd rebel and leave. And And you could never mourn them or talk about it. It was just like one Sunday you would turn up and it would be announced that they'd left and that was it. You just never talked about it. And so my whole childhood, I just perpetually, it was almost just people died over and over and over again. 00:10:20 Speaker 1: We're talking with Bec Condello. Her book is called Can You Handle a Girl Like Me? Yes, she's a wild child, but far from it. She grew up in this cult and I think it's terribly sad. It's going to have a happy ending. I know that. 00:10:33 Speaker 3: I promise you. 00:10:35 Speaker 1: We need to take a break. Back shortly. Welcome back, everybody. Bec Condello is talking to me via Zoom and her book is called Can You Handle a Girl Like Me? It's a story

about a young girl who was born into a cult, a Pentecostal church, and was treated appallingly as a seven-year-old, beaten by a father regularly for saying the wrong thing, for not doing the right thing. Intriguingly, when I'm reading, Looking at your life, Becky, I mean, you're homeschooled until you're 10. So when you actually go to school, what's it like? You're a 10-year-old getting into a, I don't know, year three or four, whatever it is. 00:11:13 Speaker 3: Five. So what was that like? It was both exhilarating and terrifying. You know, I think I might not have been book smart like my brother, but I was very social smart. And I think I learned very quickly that the cult was weird and I wanted to make friends and I wanted to fit in. So I never told any of my friends about what I was experiencing at home and that I never told them about the cult. weirdly I think in hindsight my friends probably would have accepted me I think I was very I was terrified that they would maybe want to come along I had to learn at this exponential pace suddenly like the world and life was just coming at me and I had no one to talk about it because I couldn't tell my friends that I'd never been to school before I think they all not I don't even think they knew I'd been homeschooled. 00:11:56 Speaker 1: Were you were you up were you up to date with. 00:11:59 Speaker 3: The studies I remember always being very often in the bottom of the classes. And I very often felt dumb. I'd been told by my mum that I was lazy and, you know, I was the one that wasn't, you know, it was my responsibility for not learning. I was completely unprepared for education. And I can't say that I necessarily learnt a lot at school, but I did have a great time. But it got to the end of grade 10 and I wasn't allowed to go on and do 11 and 12 because I was a girl in the church. And what would I need an education for? Because it was my role to be a wife and mother. And so I sadly at 16 left my friends behind and they all went off, you know, in Canberra, you have college. So they went off to do year 11 and 12 at college. And I went off and got a job and I never saw or spoke to any of my friends ever again. And I had to grow up very, very quickly. And I think by then I was also really tired, you know, like I was living this double life where I was having to make excuses and lie to my friends all the time about why I couldn't have sleepovers or go to school camps or go to the dances. And I was just tired. I knew by the time they, you know, left high school and went to university, they'd be getting their licenses and going out drinking and whatever. And boys were starting to want to, like, date me and hang out on the weekends. And, you know, there was just too much that was stressing me out that was about to start converging. And it just felt safer to just, yeah. 00:13:18 Speaker 1: So when a boy starts to ask you out, do you have to ask your mum permission or do you just say no? 00:13:26 Speaker 3: I

would say no. I tried to have a couple of sneaky boyfriends at school because in the church I was only allowed to date someone within the church and it was when I was old enough to get married. So people didn't start dating until they were 18 and most people married the first person they dated in the church. And that had to go through a whole approvals process of like speaking to the pastors first and the parents first. And then finally, the woman would be the last person asked. So, yeah, I definitely could not have dated anyone outside the church. I had a couple of sneaky boyfriends and it all kind of fell down one day when, you know, one of them got my home phone number and my dad gave him a very stern warning about, you know, he couldn't date me unless he wanted to marry me. 00:14:06 Speaker 1: I think it's a book that women obviously devour and it's got women's sympathies in it. But the early days, you talk about initially the notice about the sanitary pads in the toilet. So how were you educated about puberty and things like that? 00:14:24 Speaker 3: Really poorly which ultimately set me up for some really unfortunate situations when I finally left my husband and I came out to the world and just didn't really have any understanding about sexual health or consent or any of that and there were probably two times that I ever had any remote kind of you know talk about sex there was this book called where did I come from I think it was from the 70s or something I don't know if. 00:14:49 Speaker 1: You gave that to my kids. 00:14:51 Speaker 3: Yeah probably for all intents and purposes, it's a great book, but someone, it was like, there must've been a couple of copies passed around. One was for the girls and one was for the boys. And so for the girls version, someone had gone through and sort of blacked out all the, the male anatomy with a Sharpie so that the girls couldn't see what a male's anatomy looked like, you know? So that was my sex talk. And it's like, and then suddenly you're meant to get married and have sex for the first time. And you have no idea about anything. 00:15:16 Speaker 1: Well, you've introduced your husband, talking about getting married. So how did that happen? 00:15:23 Speaker 3: I mean, he was a relative stranger. And, you know, for me, I think there was always something deep down where I knew I wanted more, but I didn't know how to get it. And I didn't really know what I wanted. I didn't know who I was. And so by the time I met him, he was living in, he was in the church, but he was in another city. And I had already dated two other young men in the cult at that time, which was very unheard of. You know, most people really did marry the first person they dated or definitely the second person. 00:15:53 Speaker 1: How did you manage that? Did you say the first one wasn't, you're not for me, I want to try someone else? 00:15:57 Speaker 3: So the first one broke up with me. His dad put pressure on me because his dad and my

dad didn't get along. And the second one, he was such a sweet young man. I think he's definitely left the cult by now. I just, I didn't know these people, you know, like, and I think I just, I wanted the Hollywood romance, you know, I wanted to feel in love and I, these are strangers and, and it was just so tightly controlled. And when I met my ex, um, The pastor took me aside and he basically told me I had to marry him because it was not okay that now I was on to my third person. And he lived in another city. I worked out that we had only hung out for seven weekends before we got married. And one whole day of that weekend was at church and we couldn't sleep together. We couldn't be in a house together just so there was no temptation to want to sleep together. So I didn't know him. There was no moments of like, you know, I didn't know myself, but there were also no moments of, you know, just is this someone I want to spend my life with? And I married him and very soon after I realised I didn't know anything about this person. 00:16:56 Speaker 1: What's a wedding ceremony like within the Geelong Revival Centre? 00:17:00 Speaker 3: It's pretty standard. It's a very traditional wedding, you know. It's kind of what you'd expect. There's nothing crazy. Definitely no alcohol or dancing. 00:17:07 Speaker 1: No dancing? 00:17:09 Speaker 3: No dancing, no alcohol. No music? No anti-fun. And we didn't even celebrate New Year's by the time I was sort of a teenager. So around the millennium, they came on New Year's Eve as well. We didn't celebrate Christmas. I think it was just like any moments for anything sinful, you know, which is kind of crazy. 00:17:25 Speaker 1: But it's their singing and laughter and, I guess– I know they talk in tongues, whatever that means. Actually, what does that mean? 00:17:37 Speaker 3: So when I had to articulate it for my book, I was like, man, I don't even know what this is. I don't know. And I don't want to offend any Christians here, but I don't know if it's just like this hyper manifestation of things that people want to believe, you know, because I remember I was really encouraged to, you'd kind of made it once you spoke in tongues. And if you turned 14 and you hadn't spoken tongues, basically they said before 14, you were covered under believing parents. So if God returned, you were okay. You got to 14 and you weren't yet speaking in tongues. If God returns, you're done for. So there's a lot of pressure. And so I just feel like sometimes it's something you just kind of manifested because you just saw everyone else doing it and you just, you know. 00:18:17 Speaker 1: If I talk in tongues, can you understand what I'm saying? 00:18:20 Speaker 3: No. So we always got told it was like another language and that it was languages that, you know, like real languages. 00:18:27 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:18:27 Speaker 3: But everyone just kind of sounded the same. And I never heard anyone come in and be like, oh yeah, you're speaking, you

know, Farsi or something. No one was ever able to actually interpret it. Um, so I really, I, I don't know what, I don't know if it's a real thing or not, honestly. So you married, you. 00:18:44 Speaker 1: Married Stephen, Stephen was your first husband or your husband's wife. You married Stephen. 00:18:49 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:18:49 Speaker 1: Um, But you have a psychological difficulty in consummating the marriage. Did I read that correctly? 00:18:56 Speaker 3: Yep. So I had what I now know was vaginismus, which is a very, like, you know, common actual physical and mental thing that a lot of women experience actually after, like, sexual assaults or trauma. For me, it was a combination of, I think, many things, also just being– so afraid of sex like always just told that sex was dirty and it was wrong and if someone kissed on tv my dad would change the channel and just so repressed and and also i just didn't know him and you know i didn't have any idea of foreplay i i felt so stressed and anxious cam our wedding night and we just physically weren't able to have sex and then ultimately were not able to physically have sex for the remainder of our 10-year marriage And there was no access to mental health support or, you know, going to a gynecologist or that just was so unheard of. And you could never kind of admit that you were struggling because if you struggled, that was a lack in your faith. and you just needed to pray more about it. And so our marriage basically sort of turned into this thing about everything was just about sex and money. And I felt so frustrated with my own body. And it wasn't until I actually left my ex that I went to therapy. I went and saw a gynecologist and found out I had a very treatable condition. In hindsight, I'm kind of glad that I had it because it actually prevented us from having children. And I think my whole life would be in a very different place right now had we had children. 00:20:17 Speaker 1: My guest on Conversations is Bec Condello. She talks about leaving a cult in which she was raised. The book's called Can You Handle a Girl Like Me? Lots to come. We've got to get her out of the cult at some stage. Back shortly, folks. Welcome back to Conversations, everybody. But look, if you just tuned in, it's a It's a sad, and I guess it's going to have a happy ending, but it's sad at the moment. Beck Condello was raised in a cult, Geelong Revival Centre. They'd probably denied that they were a cult to this day, Beck. And you talked about before we went to the break, talked about getting married and having difficulty consummating the marriage. There's a moment in the book that we didn't cover that really tugs at the heartstring where the pastor drags you into a... You didn't address him correctly. You just said hello. You didn't use his name. He drags you into a forest. And thrashes you. Can you relive that for us? 00:21:08 Speaker 3: These pastors, right, they had ultimate power and were just very domineering, aggressive men. And I was terrified of them. And I remember one day I turned up for church and I said hello to the pastor, but I didn't use his last name. I just said hello. And he was like, hello, what? And then I just spiraled. And I just, the words wouldn't come out of my mouth. And I was, you know, and my dad was just so angry at me for not, for being disrespectful, essentially. And so then it kind of turned into this, I don't know how long it went for, months. saga of every time I would be told to go greet him, I would panic, start crying. And then my dad would drag me off and hit me. And one day we went for a barbecue. If anyone knows Canberra, it was at the Tidbinbilla Nature Reserve. And we had a barbecue there. And without warning, I guess my parents in the past had already colluded about it, but he grabbed my hand and dragged me off into the pine plantation and basically said he wasn't going to return me to my parents until I said hello to him. 00:22:04 Speaker 1: And you're seven? 00:22:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. I was around six or seven. I was a little kid. And, you know, when you're that young, that feels like a very real threat, you know? And I was like, oh my God, this guy's not going to take me back. And I'm sobbing, like I'm probably hyperventilating now on reflection. I'm just so distressed and he's just taking me further. And no one stood up for me. Like no one was like, you know, actually maybe this has gone too far. No one stood up. They all just kept on eating and chatting and just watched this man drag me off into the forest. and and eventually I sort of managed you know between my snots and sobbing to say hello properly and he was just smug and satisfied that he I guess broken my pride and and took me back to the barbecue no one consoled me no one offered me a hug or a tissue you know it was almost just like everyone was just like finally like oh yep she's been broken like you know her pride's been broken and I think in that moment I realized that everyone was always just going to prioritize God and the church and and the pastors. 00:23:03 Speaker 1: Anyway let's move on you've you've met Stephen you've married Stephen but the marriage has difficulty obviously do you both decide to leave the church at the same time. 00:23:14 Speaker 3: Well, we had been talking about it for about a year or so. And ultimately, my ex had been going back and forth with the pastors with questions and asking them things. And their answer was always just to pray about it. And I had told him about some childhood abuse I'd experienced. But I just didn't have clear memories. You know, I think a lot of the things that I experienced in that place, I didn't have the language for. And so I was like, look, I think something's happened. You know, I think I was abused when I was a kid, but I just don't know. 00:23:40 Speaker 1: You mean sexually abused? Yeah. 00:23:41 Speaker 3: And I think when we had trouble with intimacy and having sex, I think I was like,

look, I think some things happened when I was a kid, but I just don't have clear memories of what happened, you know? And he kind of just got it in his head that if he brought this to the pastors, that was almost going to be able to poke fault in the cult and they would believe him. And then they'd be like, oh, maybe we aren't so perfect after all. I didn't want him to do that. I asked him not to do that. And unfortunately, he went behind my back and exposed that to them. And they basically said I was lying and I'd made it up. And I'd been told my whole life that these guys heard directly from God and God knew everything. So I think for me in that moment, I'd been really scared to leave because I think I was like, but what if they're right? What if God is real? What if I leave and I'm tormented for the rest of my life? And then this happened and I was like, oh, actually, you guys don't hear directly from God or if God, you know, like none of that's real. And so I was like, okay, cool. I'm not ever going to go back now because I just call BS on this whole place forever. thinking my ex would also then stand by me and leave with me since he had created this whole scenario. Unfortunately, instead, he was like, actually, you know what, I think maybe you are lying too. And he stayed for another six months. And so I was really thrust into the world completely alone. 00:24:55 Speaker 1: How did you leave? Women today face that issue of of leaving abusive relationships. How did you leave? 00:25:03 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I still stayed with him for another five years after that. I just had no sense of self or autonomy. I left the cult, but I stayed with him. And I just don't think, I mean, I didn't have my own bank account. I had no access to any, I was very naive and very young and I'd already just lost my whole identity and community and sense of belonging and place in the world. And so I think for better or worse, I still clung onto him for five more years. while I kind of built up my strength and autonomy and place in the world. 00:25:32 Speaker 1: Was he a good guy? 00:25:34 Speaker 3: You have to read the book and find out. I mean, I just think that we should never have been married. I can't say whether he was a good guy or a bad guy. He wasn't my guy. And we were very unhappy. And I think that there's a lot of things that he did that wasn't great, but we should never have been together. And I think had we been able to date normally, I would have realized very early on that we were not compatible at all. 00:25:56 Speaker 1: How did you leave him? 00:25:58 Speaker 3: So I got to my 30th birthday and I thought I had sleep apnea. I was waking up. So we'd been out of the cult now for three years. My life was growing and expanding. I was making friends. I'd gone to study. I had a little career for myself. 00:26:11 Speaker 1: What career did you have? 00:26:12 Speaker 3: So I'd gone into mental health by that point. So I was working with like homeless teenage girls in youth shelters. And I really, I think for me, it was like I needed to be able to be, I had never felt like anyone had supported me when I was younger and a teenager. And so I think I found a lot of purpose in that. And for him, nothing about his life had really changed since he left, you know, he left the cult and then nothing changed. And I was like, let's go travel. Let's go get some tattoos. Let's go out drinking. Like, let's, you know, maybe move somewhere else. Let's do some things. And he was just like, Beck, I don't know why you'd want to do any of that. You know, like, it was just so disappointed in me all the time and just. 00:26:47 Speaker 1: I can see just through the, even through the camera, why you'd want to do that. You want to love life. 00:26:53 Speaker 3: I just wanted to live, you know, I wanted to try things. I wanted to experience life. I was like, we're finally free. And so we'd been out for three years. It got to my 30th birthday and I was waking up in the middle of the night. I thought I had sleep apnea. And I realized that I was having these anxiety, like these panic attacks in my sleep, where I realized that the only thing was holding me back was my marriage to this person who didn't even like me. And I didn't even really like them, you know? And And so then it actually took me another two years of me telling him I wanted to leave him and him saying, you could love me if you wanted to. And like, you know, he didn't want to talk about it. And then finally I was strong enough and I had set myself up enough that I could actually walk away. And I, you know, had been putting some money aside. I'd set up my own bank account. I had a bit of a plan in place. And I got out of there a month later. I'd booked a ticket to Morocco and I was off. And I haven't really stopped since. But, yeah, our lives definitely diverged in extremely different directions after that. 00:27:50 Speaker 1: Did you ever hear from him? 00:27:52 Speaker 3: No, not at all. 00:27:53 Speaker 1: So you've left him. And you've left the church. Have you left your mum and dad? 00:28:00 Speaker 3: Yeah, so my mum will never leave the cult. She will, I think, be in there till the day she dies. And in all fairness, I mean, she joined when she was 18. She's now in her 60s. She has no life for her on the outside. And I think for her, in a lot of ways, it ticks a lot of boxes. It gives her a sense of belonging. My dad actually left when I was in my 20s. But he just has never made any– there's a lot of trauma there for me with my dad. And I don't know him. I have no interest in having a relationship with him. He joined the cult and then left when it suited him and left me and my mum behind and has never acknowledged that he played a huge part in the trajectory of my life and the trauma I've experienced and the life that I still have to live and catch up on and, yeah. 00:28:49 Speaker 1: I just find that so– I mean, I know– Parents are often estranged

from their kids. It's not unusual, but it's so sad. 00:28:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think sometimes now, like, knowing the community I have and the people in my life who love me and what I'm doing with my life, I don't want to toot my own horn, but I'm a good person, you know. And I feel sad for my parents that they're missing out on me, you know. Like, I feel sad that they're not in my life and that they don't get to share this life with me, you know. 00:29:19 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:29:20 Speaker 3: I actually just feel sad for them. I think I have thankfully found replacements for them in many people. My friends' parents especially love to adopt me. So, yeah, I don't feel that void. I think no matter how old you get as a woman, I feel like I miss having a mom. I miss having someone to call who's consistently woven into my life. I'm still single. And so I do miss having an anchor like that in the world for sure. 00:29:46 Speaker 1: But you have met your mom's or your dad's parents. You have met your grandparents, haven't you? 00:29:52 Speaker 3: I met, so I met my dad's parents once or twice when I was a little kid. But my mum's parents, I actually did meet after I left the Colts. Unfortunately, my grandma, I only really got to know her for a year or so and then she got dementia and COVID happened and she passed away at the start of COVID. My granddad, unfortunately, I think had a lot of trauma with losing my mum, obviously, at 18. And I think he was initially happy to have me in their life, but unfortunately, I think ultimately, once my grandma died, I think it brought up a lot of pain for him. And when he looked at me, he saw my mom and ultimately just said that he didn't want to see me anymore. And although it's frustrating and hurtful, I also get it. And he's an old Italian man, you know, he's stubborn and proud and won't go to therapy. And And I think for him it just was too painful to have me in his life. And, again, that's when I think about things that make me angry or frustrated, that's one of those things because I'm mad at my mum that she's still able to affect my life now and the relationships that I have. 00:30:53 Speaker 1: Bec Condello is my guest, folks, back after the break. My guest on Conversations is Bec Condello. She's written a book about her time within a cult, the cult that she was born into, how she managed to escape the cult. Married within the cult, then her marriage broke up, and then she was set free. Is there a better description? You were set when you made the decision to leave your husband, who stayed in the cult. You had been able to build up your own resources. You'd had your own bank account, and you booked a ticket to Morocco. Why? Why Morocco? 00:31:27 Speaker 3: I think... People always say, oh, that was super brave. I don't think it was necessarily bravery. I think it was dumb naivety and just thinking that the world was my oyster and everything bad I'd left behind. And I think for me, it was specifically Morocco

because I wanted to really test myself. I wanted to see if the life that I imagined and wanted for myself was real. 00:31:50 Speaker 1: I'm interrupting, but what did you imagine? 00:31:53 Speaker 3: I think I just wanted to push myself so far outside my comfort zone. 00:31:57 Speaker 1: You know, that's like freedom or drugs or what? 00:32:01 Speaker 3: No, it was freedom. I think I wanted to prove it to myself. I think that I'd never done anything on my own ever. And so I was like, okay, I'm just going to push myself to an extreme. Unfortunately, this is, you know, not unfortunately, but like, you know, it set me off on this trajectory of like, well, if I can do this, I can do anything. 00:32:17 Speaker 1: So how old were you? 00:32:19 Speaker 3: You were 31 then? 00:32:20 Speaker 1: I was 32. 00:32:21 Speaker 3: So I spent a month in Morocco, did a tour, made some great friends. I think my ex thought I was going to come crawling back and be like, I had a terrible time, please take me back. And I came back and I was like, I'm good. And I just kept on going. 00:32:31 Speaker 1: Why was Morocco so good at it? It's always fascinated me, to be quite honest. But that's from movies of 50 years ago. 00:32:40 Speaker 3: It's just an incredible place. And it was just like nothing I'd ever experienced. And I guess if I'd ever thought about traveling overseas, it was somewhere like Morocco. It was somewhere so culturally, socially, everything different. The food was different. It kind of cracked me wide open. And I was like, yes, this is the life I want. I want more of this. 00:33:01 Speaker 1: There's a hint of promiscuity there. Now, I don't know whether I'm reading that into it, but particularly when you're talking about the man you met in Bali. 00:33:08 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:33:09 Speaker 1: You call him Josh, but it's obviously not his real name. 00:33:11 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:33:12 Speaker 1: I mean, I think. 00:33:13 Speaker 3: You know, by this point I had gone to my gynecologist, my therapist, and suddenly for the first time I was able to have sex, you know. And I think I was feeling very liberated and I really, it was less about promiscuity and more just wanting to experience everything. I wanted to catch up on life. I felt like I was so far behind everyone else. And so I know a lot of my stories at that point kind of centre around, you know, men that I was sleeping with, but it really was around sex. I was really naive. Like I was like this 16 year old that had just like run away from home. And, and I didn't have a lot of the safety barriers in place. I didn't have a mum to call and be like, and for her to be like, actually, you know, give me some words of wisdom or some, and I wasn't experiencing these things, you know, as you would, if you were actually 16. And your peers would be going through it at the same time. I was going through all these experiences on my own. Everyone else had gone through them 10, 15 years earlier. And so I didn't know it was normal. I didn't know, I didn't have anyone to talk to about anything I was experiencing. 00:34:13 Speaker 1: I did hear a brief interview where you, The number of countries you visited, was it 21 or 41? I couldn't remember. Oh, no. 00:34:22 Speaker 3: I don't know how many I've been in total, but I was in about 20-something countries last year. I was in Europe, so I was bopping around last year. And I just came back actually just for my book tour a couple of months ago. So I really, I came back for COVID. I ended up unfortunately being in Melbourne for COVID. But I really have spent the biggest part of the last eight years since I left my ex-husband just traveling around the world. 00:34:45 Speaker 1: How do you finance yourself? 00:34:48 Speaker 3: So I'm a writer. I'm a copywriter. So I changed careers at some point during COVID. Prior to that, I was working for a US-based not-for-profit over in Africa. So that's how I kind of worked over in Africa. And then, yeah, just as a writer, you can kind of work from anywhere in the world. So, yeah. 00:35:04 Speaker 1: What was Africa like? 00:35:05 Speaker 3: It's incredible. I mean, there's so much. I mean, Africa is so diverse, but I would love to go back and do some more traveling in Africa. 00:35:12 Speaker 1: There's been a Victorian parliamentary inquiry into these– cults you had to you made a submission what did you say and how was it received. 00:35:23 Speaker 3: Yeah um so I think it's actually published on their website I think there was almost 200 submissions not just from the Geelong Arrival Centre but from other religious organizations and cults in Victoria and I just outlined my experience I talked about the abuse I think I used the example of you know being dragged into the forest and the unquestionable power and having to be isolated and I think there are so many varying degrees of what people experienced in that place. And unfortunately, mine, by a long shot, is not the worst story from there. And just that unquestionable power and just a closed ecosystem where abuse of power and, you know, you would never think to go to the police about anything. You know, I am sure that there are many women stuck in very abusive relationships in there. And so I think that's what this inquiry was relating to, just like how do we make these closed organisations more accountable? 00:36:15 Speaker 1: So anyone reading your book or listening to your many podcasts that you've done, what could they take from it? There must be women in a similar situation feeling what you felt. 00:36:27 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:36:28 Speaker 1: What can they take from it? Can they escape? 00:36:30 Speaker 3: Yeah, they absolutely can. I think for me it felt really impossible for a really long time. I think it was also just the unknown of like what's waiting for me on the outside was also unknown. So sometimes I understand why people do stay in abusive relationships because it's almost safer when you know the outcome. And,

you know, sometimes the most dangerous time for a woman to like that she's at risk is when she leaves a relationship. I think for me, thankfully, my relationship was not physically abusive, so I was never worried about that. But I think for me, if anything, I hope my book gives people hope, you know, that there is a good life on the other side of trauma and abusive relationships and a childhood that, you know, hasn't, you know, I think a lot of people can be defined for the rest of their lives by the trauma they've endured. And although it will always define me, I've been so intentional about wanting to live a good life. 00:37:19 Speaker 1: Reading your book, there's a lot of fun on the other side, obviously, but getting away from it is difficult. Have you been amazed by the reaction to your book? I mean, you've done so many interviews and podcasts. Has it been what you'd hoped for? 00:37:35 Speaker 3: I didn't think I had any hopes. Like I really did just start writing this book as a memory for myself. You know, I woke up after I left my marriage and I realised that I had lost the last person who remembered huge parts of my life and I'd lost my community and everything. And so I had no one, I had no co-rememberers for 32 years of my life. I had three childhood photos on my phone. And so I really, it was a selfish pursuit for me. And then through a random series of events, Penguin ended up signing me and I would, that was never something I was actively pursuing. And so, yeah, it's been incredible. I, I was not expecting so many people would resonate and relate to it. I've had so many women, like you were talking about, in abusive relationships who have felt a little braver and more courageous about, you know, taking some steps forward. People who also had left the Geelong Revival Centre, I have had every day, I get messages from people just finding so much comfort and support. of encouragement and yeah, in my book, which is just been incredibly overwhelming. I think in my traumatized risk averse brain, I was only thinking of all the worst things that could go wrong when my book came out, but it's been incredible. 00:38:38 Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard a comment where you said, You nearly didn't do the first interview. You couldn't. You were too scared to do the first interview. 00:38:46 Speaker 3: But you did. No, it was when the first interview came out and they posted it online and I felt sick to my stomach and I just couldn't even watch it for a couple of hours. And I was like, I'm going to call my publisher and just be like, no, let's just can the whole thing. I'll pay you back the money. Like, let's just not do this. And then just the reactions I got from that was just phenomenal. Like it was just, and I was like, and people believed me. You know, I think I'd had this moment where I'd, and I think this is very common when you have been in abusive environments that you doubt your own memory and you're like, did that even happen? Was that real? And

all these people were suddenly believing me and validating my story and saying, yeah, we experienced that too. And that was really healing for me. 00:39:24 Speaker 1: Do you see your brother? Have you spoken to your brother? 00:39:27 Speaker 3: No, unfortunately my brother and I have gone on very different, life trajectories since we've left the Colton. Ultimately, we grew up, we didn't really grow up as siblings. 00:39:36 Speaker 1: But he's your brother. 00:39:38 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a bit more to that story. But I, yeah, we really are only connected by our trauma, unfortunately. And I've tried multiple times to connect with him. And it's just, it's been really hard and really tough. 00:39:54 Speaker 1: I don't want to give away your age, but. 00:39:56 Speaker 3: It's all right. I'm 41 next week. It's fine. 00:39:58 Speaker 1: Do you still have ambitions to have a family yourself? 00:40:01 Speaker 3: I don't think that that's something that's probably going to be in my life plan. And for multiple reasons, I think I finally have so much freedom in my life. I would love a partner. I also just. 00:40:11 Speaker 1: You have no partner? 00:40:13 Speaker 3: No, I'm still single. I mean, to be fair, I've been bopping around the world, so that probably... What's. 00:40:17 Speaker 1: Wrong with the men of this world? 00:40:20 Speaker 3: I mean, we could have a whole other podcast about that, but... I think I'm a little scared to have kids as well. You know, just knowing how traumatic I would never obviously do that to my children, but I also don't have a mom that would help me out. You know, like I, there's so many things that I would just have to think about. And, and I think it's just, that's all I got told my life would ever be, would be a wife and mother. And now I found other choices and options and a life path for myself that makes me really happy. 00:40:46 Speaker 1: So what's next? 00:40:49 Speaker 3: Well, now I'm back in Sydney and I actually think I do want to base myself somewhere now for a bit. I feel like I've suitably caught up on the life that I needed to catch up on and I'm always going to want to travel and whatever and be free. But I would love to get a little apartment for myself and, you know, just settle down a little bit and build on community and just, yeah, having a bit more, some more anchors in the world. 00:41:10 Speaker 1: Well, having spoken to you, I feel better now. 00:41:15 Speaker 3: I'm glad. 00:41:16 Speaker 1: But reading the book, it's so sad. I mean, the image of this little girl is just thrashed. But maybe it has a happy ending. 00:41:24 Speaker 3: It definitely has a happy ending, and I refuse to have a sad life, you know. I definitely have some sad days, but I feel really lucky I've been given a second chance at life, and I want to make the most of it. 00:41:35 Speaker 1: Well, Bec, thanks so much for the chat. I hope the book goes really well for you. I think it is going well, is it not? 00:41:39 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, yeah. 00:41:41 Speaker 1: And good luck. There is another one in the pipeline, I guess. 00:41:45 Speaker 3: There is. Yeah, I've already started. All the best. 00:41:48 Speaker 1: Good luck with it. 00:41:48 Speaker 3: Thanks, Graeme. 00:41:50 Speaker 1: Bec Condello was my guest, folks. Her book is called Can You Handle a Girl Like Me? It is a Penguin publication. Thank you so much for joining us.