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maintenance, which gave us a high degree of stability. The premise there was one, she has the conditioning needed, she needs maximum fullness through the gluteals and delts for for to bring the silhouette required to be competitive. Second that is there's two days of competing. So I want maximum stability so I can hold a look. And I think we did well there. The second day in the morning we're a touch hazy, but we're on in the afternoon. So come that time, we had a comparable look to day one, which is great. outside of that, I will say this show takes the cake as the most expensive damn backstage pass I have ever purchased. 400 And $91 Australian for a backstage. It was cheaper to compete. And this I I I s Jacob: Wow. Not even Tony Doherty is charging that much. BK + Rachel: well, the reason is they just charge $250 per day. that's two days. Jacob: Yeah. BK + Rachel: So with the exchange rate, it ended being yeah, $491, not $500. But honestly, it just a a mind boggling thing to me because and they said it was a hundred, you know, coaches' passes, so these are exclusive, and I thought, mate. don't don't give it away for free. But without coaches, you don't have show. and I mean that kind of pricing is for context, it's about a month's wage in Southeast Asia. So how any of my brothers and sisters in SEA are affording to go to these shows, I do not know. You know, you're basically relying on those from the West slash Singapore to fork out for those kind of prices, which is, you know, unfortunate. It's more expensive than I think most of the shows in Europe, many in the States. As for the Olympia, I wouldn't have clue, but yeah, I'm assuming that's probably more. But yeah, it was quite it was wild. Jacob: I I think at the Olympia B you not many people can even get Yeah. Yeah. Unless like you're a wheelchair BK + Rachel: You don't go backstage actually. Yeah, you don't, you don't. I don't I do recall that yet. Jacob: competitor that you need assistance, it's pretty exclusive BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: back there. BK + Rachel: Yeah. But in general, a wonderful wonderful show. Yeah, it's a good finish. Yeah, totally. that's for for me. Hey, we're we're chipping away. I will say that I'm looking very forward to spending some time at home after sort of six plus weeks on the on the road. We've had that one week at at home, which is okay, we start syncing up the routine. 'cause I yeah, I'm looking forward to the same equipment and just nailing the one percenters, man. I'll I'm I'm definitely looking forward to that. Jacob: Yep, that's it, man. BK + Rachel: Yeah. But as for today, actually beyond that, I'd I'd love to briefly discuss some of the other shows because we had the ICN nationals recently and that was cool because we were all together at that show. Yeah. Jacob, if you want to provide I'd love to hear your thoughts on the overall of this show. Jacob: The BK + Rachel: I'll start. Jacob: the overall winner or just overall as in the weekend? BK + Rachel:

Let's look at the overall weekend. I happen to think it was Jacob: Okay. BK + Rachel: well very well run, credits to Viv. yeah. Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, I think it was too. lighting, they obviously moved the stage so that took feedback on from last year. A lot of the comments were, that natural light is you know, taking away all the stage light from the backlight. And so that looked a lot better this time. it was pretty on time as well. We definitely weren't running late. And the athlete space was even better than it was last year. So BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: Awesome improvements. It feels as if the athletes are being heard and the coaches are being heard. So that's always good from our perspective. And, apart from that, I think, you know, there's I've probably not been buzzing anymore after a weekend for, you know, the whole year. So it it's pretty cool just to go hang out with everyone who loves bodybuilding for two days. Can't really say much. BK + Rachel: Yeah. And I gotta hand it to Viv and his stage crew. They actually made a little modification to the stage on the weekend. So when you walk out, there was an entrance that you hit your first pose and then walk to the the yellow line at the front. There is a white wall behind. And they initially, whenever I walked out, I was like, don't even bother getting a pose there. You're not gonna see anything with this white wall. Jacob: Yeah. BK + Rachel: And then they actually put a black sheet there, and I was like, Yes, we're in business. So again, it's just people that know bodybuilding spotting the issue and and obviously they're they're obviously happy to reciprocate with modification. So they they they changed that. That was great. And I will say as well, like the the game day link that they had that was amazing. 'Cause I Jacob: Yeah, that was that was awesome. BK + Rachel: can never figure out where anybody is or what we're up to and you have to do the back and forth thing. That was like chef's kiss, love. So for those listeners who weren't there, essentially they had just built a with Claude Code a website and that website live gave you an update of who is on stage. So let's say for example, you're Nathan Wallace, you're in the pro show at projected seven o'clock. You want to get to the show two hours earlier to organize yourself, but you don't want to be there six hours earlier. Cool. Just have a look on on your phone. Yeah, cool, they're doing bikini opens now. Great. So it it was wonderful. Even It even for for us backstage, we didn't have to talk to the organizers every five minutes, where are we up to just looking at. So this would be a great something that other promoters should potentially explore. Yeah, absolutely. Because was a a wonderful asset. Jacob: And it ran pretty seamlessly. I think there was maybe one or two occasions where it's like, shit, I'm on in five minutes. and you know, for the most part that's we we can we can let that slide, so BK + Rachel: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, at that

show obviously, we had Joshie there. That was awesome. Nathan obviously was on stage and Cam as well. Cam, I gotta give it to Cam. The dude is in shape. And yeah, and we also had Jacob: Yeah, man. BK + Rachel: on the Sunday as well. Abby. We had Abs on stage. She looked great on the Sunday also. So that was a yeah, wonderful look for for her. Absolutely. And hope for I hope I think so, you know, overall good experience for everybody involved as well. I think at the end of the day that's what we want is everybody to have a really good time and especially as first time athletes, which Abs was like conducted herself to a high standard, had so much fun. Great, I'm winning as a coach as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Overall really good production and r some really phenomenal physiques. Y as you would expect. Jacob: I was impressed by definitely definitely the top wellness girls. They were BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: you know, they really fit like a really overwhelmingly muscular lower body in comparison to their top half. really impressive BK + Rachel: Mm. And it's Jacob: legs. It's like, there's a big legs. BK + Rachel: Yeah, and it's so cool to see the category sorry, the category expand and develop, on this side of things as well. Obviously like we calibrate our eyes quite a bit to like, you know, IFBB and what that looks like. and you can see federations like ICN catching up in terms of, you know, the expectation as to what defines wellness. yeah, and as I said, you know, as I said to to Abby like you're structurally built for it or you're not, kind of thing. And she's definitely somebody who is which is really cool to see. I look I really think that wellness is a category that chooses you. You don't choose it. Yeah. You know, if you have, you know, relatively narrow biochromial widths by comparison to the width of your pelvis, you probably have legs in the game, so to speak. And then you can capitalise on the on that those proportions with your developmental patterns and that's where you go. Because if you have wellness proportions and you're trying to do say IFBB bikini, man, it's like a square peg and a round hole. It just you you could you could make it okay, but you're just fighting an uphill battle. So yeah, it's pretty cool to see that that category develop. Jacob: Think that comment as well be is the case for most categories anyway. you're probably gonna have one category that you suit best in comparison to all the others. And sometimes it's BK + Rachel: Yeah. True, true. But Jacob: better to to, you know, lean into it rather than push away, depending of course on what your, you know, your outcome is, decide out. BK + Rachel: Yeah, but I find it so extreme with that division. cause here's if you're good at bodybuilding, you can probably if you're great at bodybuilding, you can be okay at classic. If you're great at classic, you're probably pretty good at bodybuilding. If you are great at wellness, your garbage, no, okay, that's horrible choice of words. You're just you're you're miles off for bikini. I mean ICN's a bit whiffy, it's a bit flexible with what they want. They they don't actually know what they want, to be fair. But for IFBB it's very, very, very specific look. But you're right, like you you lean into the category that fits your structure from the get go. Yeah. Jacob: I I ended up watching a bit of the classic physique pro show as well. and I'll I'll keep my sort of more assertive opinion on it under wraps, but that in itself to judge looked like an absolute nightmare. I I just don't BK + Rachel: Okay, I miss this. Jacob: I don't see how from a judge's perspective you can produce you know, a standardized process. You've got, BK + Rachel: Mm-hmm. Jacob: you know You get called out for a front double bicep and then someone hits a T cut. Then someone else hits a BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: a front double bicep facing not even, the the most left judge on the panel. and there's a s such a vast array of different poses. I just don't see how you can judge that. Now, I do think, you know, having some flexibility in poses is awesome, but there does need to be a line drawn somewhere, especially when we're trying to produce really fair. judging for the most part. BK + Rachel: Yeah, I unfortunately missed out on that category. we'd finished pro bodybuilding with Nath. We were backstage waiting to get urine sample taken. so unfortunately I missed out on it. So I wasn't able to so I'm not able to comment. Jacob: I watched the live stream. Yeah, I can send you the live stream, B. BK + Rachel: Yeah, I'd love to watch the replay. That'd great game day tape. And on the same day, we also had, well, not we personally, but there was also the Bodybuilding Worldwide show in the UK, which looked amazing. unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to to tune into it, but obviously I I saw a lot of the media thereafter. And I'm quietly very excited for what is to come with that. Because I think that if AJ does magic correctly, which I think he's got big plans for it, that it could be like a real pinnacle show. Because essentially you got an open invite. Well, you you're inviting pros from other organizations to come together and there's every opportunity for it to become the the pinnacle show where you just bring the best to the best from whatever organization and and pull it together. So it's gonna be interesting. Jacob: Yeah, and we had fellow Ozzie Renee, I believe. BK + Rachel: All the hugs? Yep. Jacob: Yeah. The hugs. Took out the bodybuilding title. Very impressive. BK + Rachel: I gotta say, it it Renee's staying power is phenomenal. It's it's I mean, she's been to the States. I'm pretty sure she did the OCB also, right? So it's like to the States, back to Oz, from Oz to NZ, back to Oz, to the UK. I'm pretty sure she comes back to Oz in between, and then over to WMBF Worlds. Now I've had athletes that have cro went to the States twice in the season, but she takes it to

some new levels, so incredible. Work. Jacob: Yeah, pretty cool to see. BK + Rachel: Yeah, very much so. Jacob: But yeah, I I watched most of the bodybuilding and that was a big lineup, man. That was like twenty twenty pro bodybuilders. and you know, just to handle that amount of athl that many athletes on stage would have been challenging in itself. You know, they I think BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: they posed the first call out for fifteen, maybe a little bit longer, maybe fifteen, twenty minutes. And then it's like, all right, second second call out guys. Make sure you still eat your pump. So it BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: it would have been a challenge. but it it that's part of the part of the show, I guess. And we obviously had Dirk take that one out. BK + Rachel: Yeah, credit to him. The dude is is is very complete. It's it's hey, when you when you're that complete, it's not an easy package to beat. So credit to him. I know he's making his way over to Wells and Calgary's as well. So pretty keen to see how he refines over the next bit of time. So it's been a busy time for bodybuilding, but for most people they're getting into their respective recovery phases, which will be a topic of which we'll discuss today. Obviously we've been talking about peaking a lot in recent in recent podcasts and the recovery phase is the bridging period between a successful contest prep and what is to be a wonderfully productive follow-on off season. And to offer a bit of a I suppose intro here, Jacob, what if we but just offer some context, what is the function of the recovery phase. Why do we need this recovery phase? Jacob: been in a controlled energy deficit for a very long time and we're likely experienced some maladaptations as a result of that. Typically representative BK + Rachel: Mm-hmm. Jacob: you know within low end low energy availability and some of those downstream health impacts and we want to get out of that position as BK + Rachel: Mm-hmm. Jacob: quickly as possible. So you know it was often put forth that we'd Do more of a reverse, which is generally defined as you know, a slow reintroduction of calories, maybe week by week or you know, a a set duration. but for the most part, we will normally run a recovery phase or recovery diet in which we look to make more of an assertive push in nutrition. we and it might span somewhere from eight to twelve weeks to try and restore normal function and get us back into a position where we can productively put on more muscle tissue and improve the the package. BK + Rachel: Wonderful. Great. yeah, exactly as you put it, from a physiological perspective, the there is a variety of, as I describe, interesting adaptations that occur that collectively increase food seeking behavior and reduce energy expenditure. And anyone who diets to an elite level of conditioning will experience the the hyperphagia, the delayed satiation, the increase in food reward sensitivity. That is such a profound piece that I'm sure you can relate to, Rachel where Things that taste good. They don't taste good. They're described as life changingly amazing. You know, you're for example, right? Rachel would have some rice. She's Jacob: Mm, mm, mm. BK + Rachel: looking at me. This rice is so good. I'm like, darling, it's plain rice. It's white rice. What are you talking about? But it's it's this grain, like it it's really nice basmati. It's fragrant. Yeah. Jacob: That's fragrant jasmine rice. BK + Rachel: Yes, right. That's how how elevated your taste sensitivity becomes. And heaven forbid if you put tomato sauce on it. my gosh. Right. Yeah. And you know, the recovery phase, I sorry, the reverse diet, that whole concept I recall when I was coming up. This was put forth as you actually reverse the increments or or the decreases you made to your nutrition throughout. So yeah, okay, it's been a 22-week contest preparation. You made an adjustment to your nutrition at let's say 18 weeks, then maybe a 15, 10, wherever, and you're going to reverse that. Which would have been an incredibly arduous, unnecessary, and I would argue almost torturous process. Whereas as Jacob put it, our general recommendation is to restore energy availability as swiftly as as possible. And just for for listeners here, to define Really, the to define energy availability, it's essentially the volume of energy left over for physiological processes after we account for energy expenditure from training. And the formulae is basically energy intake minus energy expenditure, what what's remaining divided by fat-free mass. And ideal energy availability is considered 40 or above for male. 45 and above a female, and clinically low energy availability is considered flat line below 30. Now, obviously, there's a bunch of issues with calculating this. How can we estimate energy expenditure within resistance training? We have to use probably metabolic equivalents, and you need an accurate way of evaluating body composition to actually look at fat-free mass. and I'm also of the belief that we need to go beyond an energy availability-centric model because you've probably, if you work with athletes for a long time, you've probably had athletes who have met their conditioning requirement, you've increased their energy intake coming into the show. And in some cases, definitionally, they're not in an environment of any of low energy availability anymore, but they're still experiencing diet-related side effects. In which case there is a body composition related component there as well. And some listeners might be familiar with the Speakman model. It's a 2016 paper. And obviously No model's perfect, some are useful, and this happens to be exactly that. And basically it states that there is a a buffer zone of body composition for the individual where the body is operating at its best. When we go above this upper intervention line, if you can't see my hand, I'm waving it up here at at eye height. And when we get too fat, if we're eating

minimally processed food selections, that's when we experience a decline in appetite. And from an evolutionary perspective, that would be where we're We're getting slower and at risk of predation. Obviously, if you're hate eating hyperpalatable crap, you're not moving enough, your appetite buy feedback systems aren't functional. So you can probably get v very, very cuddly. But on the in opposition. Yeah. Jacob: Few more cocoa pot bowls in there. BK + Rachel: In opposition, you've got that lower intervention line, which is where the body registers that energy availability is is low and energy stores are low and this is where we experience the diet-related side effects of Connusprep. Increased appetite because and that's intended to be bloody uncomfortable because it would have been well, famine would have been one of the biggest threats to your survival as a for your primal being. And obviously there are adaptations that occur at the level of energy expenditure, both level of BMR, but also at the level of non-excittivity thermogenesis and non-exercise physical activity. So with that in mind, like we actually have to put on body fat after a show to normalise these components. And, you know, as we often put forth, it's three things. Increased energy intake, a strategic increase in body fat and time. And that's something you you were saying here, Jacob. you know, eight to twelve weeks. In your last, we're gonna come to Rachel in a moment who's going through it right now, but in your last Connors preparation, how long do you think it took for you to feel a hundred percent normal in terms of appetite, libido, performance, energy? These would be your big metrics. Jacob: Well, I think we often like to block things out, you know, in in our in our sheets and create macro and mesocycles and so generally, you know, we'll we'll block out eight to twelve weeks, but I think that's where say the predominant amount of recovery occurs, arbitrarily maybe eighty to ninety percent. And it's that last, let's say ten percent that takes the longest. And I it For me, it probably would have been at least eight months till I was one hundred percent. And so let's say it was twelve weeks to ninety percent and then it was an additional four, eight, twelve, five months until I was able to ring out that last five to ten percent of one hundred percent normalcy. and then, you know, I I am where I am now, wouldn't even thought have, you know. wouldn't even be thinking about some of those those things that I was experiencing not too long ago. BK + Rachel: So if we're looking across the primary metrics which we use for evaluating recovery, so perceived energy, food seeking behavior and libido, which of these components was the final two normalise? Jacob: Food seeking behavior. BK + Rachel: Yeah. Okay, yeah, interesting. Jacob: Libido not too far off though. BK + Rachel: Yeah. And look, on that front, we talk about recovery duration, how long takes to recover. She'll put this forth that this probably comes down to a few things. One, how lean you got, two, how long you died for, three, how aggressively you died. four, there's probably some hereditary components. Five, how swiftly you exited the or or restored energy availability. global energy availability, an appropriate degree of adiposity and appropriate energy availability in some Jacob: To bump in, do you think total body mass is a a worthwhile? that does link into how lean you got, but starting position could be a a worthwhile inclusion. BK + Rachel: Yeah, possibly. But see, with that i it's see, it's all these components coming together. I would imagine that if you're starting your contest preparation already with compromised energy availability, and maybe very lean, that Jacob: Not a great sign about yeah. BK + Rachel: could be a problem. But I could also see that if you're starting at twenty-five percent of the stage weight, which is inadvisable, that may also contribute to a more aggressive diet and therefore more diet-related adaptation. But by far By far, by as per the my anecdotal experience, the biggest predictor of diet dur of recovery duration is how lean you got. When we had to get one line in the glutes to crack top three placings at a national level, you could compete every year because the diet was 12 weeks and you had all the recovery was three weeks. Now you you don't get a look in. You you gotta get very lean. So that it I kind of analogize like pulling back a a rubber band. Like you're you're you're going against your evolutionary biology and retaining so much metabolically active tissue and being so lean. You're pulling back that rubber band more. So you know, you have more of a diet-related side effects and you know, on the out on the exit, it takes takes a little bit longer for those to recover. I mean, Rachel, you're going through the recovery process. Now, let's say perceived energy has clearly picked up. You're bouncing off the walls and that's a matter of a few days. Jacob: Ha ha. BK + Rachel: she's she's raging, it's great. I mean, like I think though that there's a few things that play into that. One of the biggest componentary elements for me is that I know I came off stage and I was like, Cool, let's get into it. I know exactly when I'm coming back, like let's rage. I I have some work to do. I have homework, like, let's do this. I think And that comes down to knowing when to call your season. you know, there was the consideration that I would continue on and try to do worlds, but you know, for first time back in nearly a decade, like that just wasn't appropriate and it wasn't my pinnacle show either. It was something that was suggested to me. So I didn't have that that passion to chase after it, especially with such an elongated season. Like it just wasn't feasible. So that's why Vietnam, being my pinnacle show, finished it and I went, Yeah, cool, I'm ready to hit this hit this hard. So obviously like the food, yes. definitely helpful. But

the mindset as well is that, yeah, cool, I know what I want to look like next time and that means that I'm straight back into training. And and again, like that's not the right approach for everybody. Some people you never really want to get to that point where you're like you finish your shows and you're like, my gosh, I'm so tapped out. I need a total break from this. But it does happen, you know, and that that's again why I say that the biggest win for me is that my clients finish and they're happy and they they they're ready and and juiced up to to hit it again and they've got plans and they're thinking about things, the cogs are turning. So that's definitely been my focus is that yes, like the the reverse is hard. Let's just let's not beat around the bush. Like it's it's a challenging time for anybody and anybody that tells you that isn't is lying. But the tr but you know having that plan forward has been a very big anchor for me in terms of okay like let's use this. Yeah. I I would imagine it'd be very challenging when y if someone is completely directionless, I don't know if I'm gonna bodybuild anymore. Yeah. which thankfully seldom occurs, has occurred with our athletes and it's I'd love to say it's all because of our amazing coaching. But it's it's likely very much a product of the athletes of whom we work with, lifelong athletes. And and c when you do come off show a season and you've got direction from the get go, there's a degree of excitement. To get into that. I know for you, Jacob, you went, yep, I'm gonna grow my arms and we always give you stick about growing your arms. And they get they they go on wonderfully, right? But there's an excitement to improve. And I know for Rachel, definitely she came off and she went, Great, I've got my homework. Let's let's go. But I mean, how have you been going in terms of appetite in recent times? Stayed elevated or It's definitely it's definitely there. And sometimes it's really surprising. Like I did the thing that everybody does like we went out and had meals afterwards, et cetera. And I I learnt and it's I think everybody needs to learn this in all honesty. the the delayed satiation thing, you're like, I'll try this and this and this and this and all of sudden you're full. and it's uncomfortable. And I only needed to be in that position once or twice to realise that I didn't want to be back there. And like uncomfortable to the point where, you know, you're arching the back and you're walking around like you you're pretty pretty far Jacob: Mm-hmm. BK + Rachel: in it and things are hurting and skin's stretching and all of that. So I you know again, I think you everybody does it at some point and it's a good lesson to learn. So it's definitely been that first week was a good lesson overall and then I started moving back into tracking. and obviously like, you know, we've done the thing where we've we've gone out and we've reconnected with people 'cause as I say to even my clients, like, it's important you give back to your relationships because they gave to you when you were, you know, introverted and focusing on yourself and perhaps not yourself throughout prep. So there's that that balance there of of figuring out things. So I mean for me like appetite's still high, I've still got a lot of food focus, but I do have I I maintain a lot of I suppose lessons from prep that I I do try to carry through like hydration and my tease and and things like that and still volumising stuff to to try to mitigate it as best as possible. But I will put this forth. Rachel's got some pretty good general eating habits. post-show, she went and had seafood. Most people are gonna have a heart attack on a plate burger. That's not gonna be Rachel's, hey, you're gonna eat 200 grams of protein. It's it puts a pretty hard ceiling on the volume of energy which you can consume. But speaking of coming out of show and taking it too far. I we did mention that, hey, we're a fan of the recovery phase, so we're exiting quite swiftly. And that does involve actively putting on body fat. But one thing we didn't chat about was the parameters for that, which is probably a really good component for us to discuss. Now, obviously the volume of body fat one needs to accumulate post show is largely dependent on how lean they got. But if we're looking at say figure lean or bodybuilding lean, our general parameters are Around 5% overstage weight in the first three to five weeks. And usually most individuals need to etch up to always 10% overstage weight to really feel normal in terms of those aforementioned by feedback indicators. but I'm sure we've all heard of individuals who have come out too fast and it's one week post-show and they are 15% overstage weight. And I will put this forth that That that can actually be quite dangerous. Some of you individuals listening may have heard of refeeding syndrome, which is essentially a condition characterized by a rapid change in osmolality in varied compartments of the body, of which is a product of two things: the general depletion of some minerals in the dieting condition, probably exacerbated by those who also experience malnutrition. And then Followed by a rapid influx in energy intake. And this usually manifests as swelling in the periphery, particularly in the lower body, and it is of significant renal and cardiac stress, to the point of which there is case studies that on anorexic patients, not specifically bodybuilders, of of whom have it has proved fatal. So, you know, if you are eating adlivitsum by field, which is not really ideal coming out of show because your body's trying to cue you to consume as much as possible and store as much as possible so you've got a reservoir for future. you you can you can put yourself in a a pretty rough spot there. So point to consider on that front. Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we're to maybe conceptualize some actionable steps that someone might take in setting up a post contest

phase, what what would you normally look at first, Rachel? So you've you know, someone has just hopped off stage, you maybe prepared it the week before. What are some of the the levers you'll normally look to adjust? BK + Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important to give some recognition here that sometimes, you know, we don't always operate in in circumstances that are the most ideal. So the reason I say this is because we've got very interesting environments that we all operate in and obviously some things that I would say and I've got a long list of things, I won't say all of them 'cause I'm sure you guys probably have very similar things to talk about. But I suppose from my perspective, environment is definitely a huge one and I experienced that coming out of because we obviously live overseas. So, you know, finishing up in in Vietnam, huge food culture, like everywhere, like within spitting distance kind of thing. So we'd be walking past all these like street bakeries and I'd be like, that looks great, I'd like to try that kind of thing. and so obviously that put already puts you in a position where it can be very difficult to sort of I suppose block it out. But I still lean into one of the things we're looking forward to is going back to our environment and having that consistency. So for me, I'm a creature of habit. I'm a typical type A personality in that like I know in my environment everything is highly controlled. I don't have like the stuff that I have, that is, you know, like my big thing is chocolate. Mm-hmm I know this I'm weak. is locked away and hidden and it's too much of an effort for me to get to. But in order for me to actually order something, like I have to make the effort of getting up, pulling out the phone, ordering it and going talking to the go jack driver, et cetera, et cetera. Like there's a lot of barriers to that. But I know in my environment in Indonesia, like I don't have anything and I have consistency in my routine. So that's where I go back as I said before, like I still have my my habits that I lean into. And I think environment is a really important conductor there. And as I said, like we're in Australia at the moment, so we're naturally surrounded by family and and other things in in the household and That creates a lot of noise and it's not always feasible to be able to step away from it, but try to replicate the environment as as best as possible. Yeah. So it that when she says the environment is highly controlled, it sounds very clinical. But essentially what she's referring to is we have an environment of which we have strategically positioned cues of which promote favorable behaviour in reference to bodybuilding. So And when you're coming out of contest preparation, when you've got a lot of food-related cues around you, it does require a significant volume of willpower because you have still a high drive for food that was accumulated as a product of the dieting condition, but you no longer have

the impending goal before you to rationalize not having that. Not to mention the fact that I'm of the belief that willpower is a finite commodity. You've used expended a lot of that in the contest prep. So in general, I'm not a huge fan of finishing a season and going straight on holiday. I would have a preference for an athlete, finish a season, you go home, you maintain 70% of the productive routines of contest preparation. As food seeking behavior declines, the required willpower needed to think logically, rationally, and exercise your hopefully above average degree of nutritional literacy inherently becomes lower. Now you can go on holiday. And you're not looking at the all you can eat buffet thinking, Well, I don't wanna waste any of this. I gotta eat all this. You go, What do I need? I need some protein, etcetera, as you would in an off season. So And there's definitely a deficit well, I like to call a deficit perspective there in that like you're coming from exactly that place of like, I haven't like for me, like especially being overseas, I like, I haven't tried this before, I haven't tried this before. Like so you end up accumulating 'cause you're trying all these new things 'cause you don't know when you'll get them again, right? You're coming from this perspective of fear of missing out almost. coming home into so when we came back to Brisbane, my mum's like, I made you a banana cake and I'm like, Why do you do that? would you usually make banana cake? No, then why are you doing it now? Don't do it, please. But the people here at the moment don't don't know that as well. They're obviously like and we're not expecting them to know that. We can't put that pressure on them. But that's exactly what I mean in that you're coming from this perspective of, hey, I've got a as as Brent said, a reservoir, your body's like, holy crap, look at all this. But this is where We when we talk about missing our environment, it's like I I'm able I know exactly what I've got in my household, and I don't have anything more than I actually need, which for me is It's bodybuilding on autopilot at home. It is the ease Jacob: Yeah. BK + Rachel: it's like walking. There is zero thought. It's all Jacob: One scale here, one scale there, oats here, oats there, protein powder have it. BK + Rachel: You've That's it. Yeah. The worst thing in my in my freezer is frozen strawberries. Yeah. And the thing is like we love high quality food as well. Yeah. Jacob: Super. And I think BK + Rachel: Awesome. Jacob: you know, a lot of that could be conceptualized as like if you're not doing this in the off season, which is a another sort of topic conversation as well, is it worthwhile doing in the post-show phase? BK + Rachel: Mm. Jacob: because, you know, technically speaking, we should have a very close difference between the off season and the contest prep. And how that then links us into the post show to be successful. and and that and that's a big I think a big piece, something

I reflected upon is the standard I'm operating at now is you know, comparing chalk and cheese to what I was doing even before my contest prep, even though it would, you know, most people would still say, you know, you think so much about your food. But now I've integrated everything to a higher level. It's easy, but also my standards are higher. So if you never operated at a high standard before, you gotta accept that it's gonna be probably a little bit tougher to, try and keep things in a nice and linear fashion coming into that recovery phase. BK + Rachel: Certainly. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think that one of the the key transitions that every athlete has to make is it's it's and this is not an easy piece to to sort of switch gears and it becomes inherently much easier as you gain experience in the game is that you're transitioning from dieting for conditioning. To fueling for performance. And when you can grasp that, then you approach your nutrition as an athlete once more in being task orientated. What do I need to consume to nourish this body so that I can perform at the level that I desire to accumulate the stimulus that I intend to to make progress moving forward, as opposed to a scarcity mindset where I got I just gotta. I gotta try this, I gotta try that. Do even like that? No, I would never eat that. Then why are you eating that? Does it nourish the body? Does it and that's not to say you should only eat for function. Our relationship with food goes far beyond that. It's it's social, it's enjoyment, but it allows you to, you know, find a midway where maybe I enjoy that bit of social something, because it's a big difference between I went over a few hundred calories here and there versus I circled the buffet a.m. and p.m. and I did that for five days. That's that's gonna be a problem. so it allows you kind of bring it back to the the essence of of bodybuilding. Yeah. Jacob: I've got question for both of you. Is the first bite of something that's more hyperpalatable, like a sweet chocolate, better than the fifth bite? BK + Rachel: Go, Rachel. Yes. Because I don't know, it's it's almost like it's orchestral in your brain, like you hear the violins play, and it's it I think we we shift into the mentality of like, I've earned this. I deserve this. and that's what I think makes the the first bite more, I suppose, memorable on that side. And I saw a lot of this at Nationals, people were coming off stage. And doing the recording of the first part of the cookie and I'm saying I love watching that shit. I'm like, We get it. We get it, girl, you get it. I I think most people are idiots when they're backstage and they have, five boxes of donuts. I'm like, you're just setting yourself up. But anyway, continue. yeah. But and that's the important thing to Jacob: It's all for social media, man. BK + Rachel: consider, and these are the conversations that I've had with athletes recently, is that you need to be careful of social media, obviously on a lot of lot of reasons there. But when it comes into reversal in in that recovery phase, you're gonna see some stuff. You're gonna see some people be honest, but the majority of people are not gonna be honest. They're they're gonna sit there and and tell you a lie basically that they were perfect in in their phase and you know this is how to not mess it up and etc. And we comp we create these comparisons and that can be really dangerous as well. So we need to remember that everybody is unique and different and you're gonna be running your own journey. So don't rely on the other voices in the room, rely on your coach. as well that and that's why we always encourage athletes to stay with us you know not because obviously we're gonna miss them if they leave and move on absolutely but we want to pret we want to protect you as much as possible and be that voice is of reason because it's a it's a hard enough phase and people are going to be telling you you know family's gonna be telling you like the first thing Brandon's mum did when she put her arms around me is like great you can eat now I need to feed you like I need to give you food and I'm like so having Jacob: Don't BK + Rachel: that I know, having that anchor, that person in your corner that says, okay, this is how we're going. this is what we're doing well, this is what we can we can do to manage this better, is you know, and that's the loudest voice in the room. Great. That's the support you need. True. I mean to your question, yeah, the first the first buy. Sorry, tangent on that one. I'm very obviously well versed in the recovery item. Jacob: Well, what what I'm trying to say is people, if you're somehow able to, you know, the obviously the scarcity mindset is quite high. If you're able BK + Rachel: Mm. Yeah. Jacob: to offset the rest of the item that you want to consume, I mean, for me, I know now that you know, I I feel a bit more comfortable throwing stuff out. I was typically known as the Hoover at the, you know, family dinner table or, you know, breakfast restaurant wherever it was. So if someone didn't finish something I would finish it. It'd just be h ushered off to my plate. So it was always challenging. You know, I don't want to waste it. And I think that's a very you know, common mentality, but it's like, hey, just have one bite, let someone else have some or throw it out. Like if you just wanted to try it, just get rid of it. BK + Rachel: Do you do you know okay? So obviously my family, probably yours also. So so my family are first generation Australian, obviously, from Switzerland. My parents are basically the first generation after World War Two. So it's all their parents who had the, the pantry full of food. everyone in Switzerland, I think it's still law now, you have an underground bunker for in case things go nuclear. And in your bunker is usually your at least a month worth of supplies in there. So wasting food was a big no no in my family. the way I approach

things in the off season, sorry, in a recovery phase, is if I think there's even the slightest chance that I won't enjoy that, I'm like, what I will enjoy? A damn oats and whey protein. I'd even bother. So I am I am exceptionally boring in that regard. I'm like, is there a possibility? I'm like, no, I'm not gonna want to worry don't worry about it. but perhaps I'm a anomaly in that. Jacob: Perhaps I think. I don't think I'm far off though, man. BK + Rachel: perspective. Boring. But I think like it's it's how you approach it as well. Like I know that don't get me wrong, I do trust myself, generally. but again like I if I'm curious about trying something and this does happen when you live in a different country because you come back and you're like, we don't have this like what's this like kind of thing? Especially when it's attached to a memory as well. and what I would do is I don't buy blocks of chocolate these days. Because I will freak out about it being there and being open. So instead of doing that, buy a little a little bar and try it and if I don't like it, I throw it out because that way I feel less bad about throwing out, well how much how much blocks of chocolate these days? eight dollars or something? Australian. so I mean like you develop these little habits, I suppose like if you want to try something without feeling like you're going to waste it, then you just, you know change the size kind of thing. But yeah. It's interesting. You have options. Now, as a we're sort of moving towards the the back end of this podcast here, I have a question for you guys with your coaching hat on. If there was one piece of advice you would give an individual of whom is entering the recovery phase, what would that be? We'll start with you, Jacob. Jacob: rule of advice I would say I would say this might be quite left of field, consider using a collaborative approach with tracking with AI when it comes to having meals out. Now, if this is something to bridge getting accuracy without having to weigh things out and if someone's got, you know w we we we always need to meet the athlete where they're at. So this might be a particular strategy used for one in comparison to another athlete that you know, this particular athlete has many dinners, catch ups that they've got planned in those first two weeks. using AI could be a really good way to still provide Accountability, clarity on what is being consumed, and you're not just telling it what you ate and then it spits out, 500 calories. No, you're giving it context. You can give it photos, you can, you BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: know, visually describe it to the AI. And I I think where AI's moving it, it can be quite useful. But obviously there's a specific UK use case for it and you'd use it at the discretion of the athlete in front of you. BK + Rachel: Yeah, with that, obviously this is where things are going on the and it's a pretty interesting use case for AI. I only read one paper on this and basically it said for single ingredient food selections, it was ninety plus percent accurate and it went down to about thirty-seven percent for multi-ingredient. But if but obviously it makes sense that if you're taking a picture of a bowl And it there's three layers in it and it only sees what's on top. hey, it's you just it's not gonna be over the accurate. But if you are to to provide it context, would you do that in a contest preparation? Absolutely not. But I mean, if you're within fifteen percent on this singular meal of which you have on that day in the recovery phase, great. That's that's I think a a viable tool. Jacob: And I think it's it particularly helpful if someone's feeling quite ha has negative feelings towards continuing to track. you know, BK + Rachel: Yeah. Jacob: those that sort of willpower you mentioned before has diminished and and they need a little bit of a break where we can still again achieve some sense of of tracking. And like you said, BK + Rachel: Mm-hmm. Jacob: hey, w what I do is I take a photo from the top with my hand next to it so it has a reference point. You can average out, you know, the size of a human hand. and get a rough number there and then from the side too with my hand on top of a pretty in depth you know context of what's actually in the meal. So that's how I'd use it. BK + Rachel: Good points, good points. Rachel, what do you have? But one thing. I'm gonna use the word continuance. and what I mean by that is so obviously when you are coming out of that phase, one of the things people do experience is bloating. Whether that be from volume, different food choices, combination of both, et cetera. Obviously I had both. because you know, yeah, hello, prep. But One of the things that I lent into was continuance of my anchor meals is what I call them. If you're a client of mine, you're gonna listen to this and be like, yeah, it's that term again. But it's I call it an anchor meal because it it worked really well for me in prep and instead of you know, 'cause obviously hyper palatable foods, amazing, but when we're continuing some of these habits like pre-training. it works really well. I know how it sits and it's something that it's not complex. It's it's single a like a single ingredient kind of situation. I don't have to spend hours fussing over it or deliberating about it. So keeping in like one or two consistent anchoring meals can be really, really helpful. And the other thing I would lean on in that same sort of line of thought is like I have a lot of veggies for dinner. So serves that purpose as well. Some good food. Again, not complex. I know how they sit. I know how it's going to make me feel. And that's, you know, what I definitely suggest in terms of that phase. Over to you. Well, I mean, I'm kind of gonna build off that, but I would say I would encourage that athletes maintain the productive elements of their condust preparation routine. we maintain this general meal structure, it means they can still do bodybuilding on halfway autopilot with some guardrails in in place. And it it it's will make life considerably easier than to the to the contrary. Jacob: Absolutely. Well BK + Rachel: Wonderful guys. Well, I believe that takes us almost to the hour. but thank you everyone for tuning in. And should you enjoy have enjoyed this podcast, please do the usual. Drop us a like, comment, share this on social media. We greatly appreciate it. And we should put out a com a question box in future because we'd love to answer a few more questions. So keep an eye out for that on social media moving forward. Well we appreciate you guys. Stay Jack. Stay blessed. Talk soon. Jacob: Aí