TRANSCRIÇÃO 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.080
Music.
00:00:09.445 --> 00:00:12.325
All right okay so i had to get my friend
00:00:12.325 --> 00:00:15.205
aj on to do a podcast because it's the only way he'll actually
00:00:15.205 --> 00:00:18.285
take a phone call with me right that's the
00:00:18.285 --> 00:00:20.965
only way we only gotta book appointments with him it's pretty
00:00:20.965 --> 00:00:23.685
popular i've been on the podcast i've been on five or
00:00:23.685 --> 00:00:26.685
six times george i think i'm i think i'm leading the pack well you are
00:00:26.685 --> 00:00:29.845
it's actually funny because i laney was on yesterday and
00:00:29.845 --> 00:00:32.645
then basically it's like back and forth between is that
00:00:32.645 --> 00:00:35.605
you are laney the most so i think you maybe want up
00:00:35.605 --> 00:00:38.625
on her now just because you're here today so that's maybe that's how
00:00:38.625 --> 00:00:41.945
i get attention i'm hoping so yeah hey so
00:00:41.945 --> 00:00:46.445
i actually wanted aj on because he has a new book out you can actually get it
00:00:46.445 --> 00:00:51.805
now you can see the link down below it is called meaningful and relevant engaging
00:00:51.805 --> 00:00:56.005
learners in an era of distraction and i yeah i got questions about this because
00:00:56.005 --> 00:00:58.865
are distracted Is that a thing?
00:00:59.705 --> 00:01:01.345
Just a little bit. All right.
00:01:03.045 --> 00:01:06.445
I'm sure that if you listen to this show, you probably know AJ.
00:01:06.945 --> 00:01:10.645
But for those who don't, if you can just kind of introduce yourself,
00:01:10.885 --> 00:01:13.945
who you are, what you do, let people know who you are.
00:01:14.405 --> 00:01:17.085
Yeah. Yeah. No, I've been on here a couple of times. And thanks again,
00:01:17.165 --> 00:01:19.805
George, for having me on and having this conversation.
00:01:20.385 --> 00:01:23.265
But I've been an educator for over two decades.
00:01:23.325 --> 00:01:27.025
I started off as a middle school level educator and a high school educator.
00:01:27.025 --> 00:01:28.665
I coached football and lacrosse.
00:01:28.745 --> 00:01:33.445
Then I moved to the primary elementary level where I was an instructional coach,
00:01:33.805 --> 00:01:37.885
director of learning, director of tech, a lot of different roles in education
00:01:37.885 --> 00:01:42.565
and working at UPenn Graduate School of Education, Penn Literacy Network as well.
00:01:42.885 --> 00:01:45.585
In the meantime, I've written eight different books.
00:01:46.205 --> 00:01:50.065
I've been able to speak and work with people all around the country and the world.
00:01:50.205 --> 00:01:54.705
And I really do see George as a mentor of mine, somebody that I go to for questions,
00:01:54.985 --> 00:01:56.685
get help from. Respond to texts.
00:01:57.025 --> 00:02:00.125
Yeah, I respond to texts just great as well.
00:02:00.285 --> 00:02:04.345
So that's a little bit about me. And I'm also a father of five.
00:02:04.505 --> 00:02:09.025
And that's where this book came from, is seeing my own kids navigating technology
00:02:09.025 --> 00:02:12.365
and distraction. Me, my wife, our family, dealing with that as well.
00:02:12.705 --> 00:02:16.725
Yeah, and AJ, actually, AJ and I have had lots of conversations about things
00:02:16.725 --> 00:02:20.165
in education, things with technology, lots of stuff with artificial intelligence.
00:02:20.345 --> 00:02:23.505
He's someone I always like to bounce ideas off. So I'm really excited about
00:02:23.505 --> 00:02:25.865
this book. And I, you know, I know it's kind of funny because,
00:02:25.865 --> 00:02:29.245
you know, it's age, it's talking about being in an age of distraction.
00:02:29.585 --> 00:02:32.085
And one of the things I've seen, you know, being a publisher,
00:02:32.125 --> 00:02:35.085
uh, and this is, you have self-published this book.
00:02:35.225 --> 00:02:39.745
So this is totally all you is that we talk about students in an era of distraction
00:02:39.745 --> 00:02:43.005
all the time, but, you know, I don't think adults are reading as much as they
00:02:43.005 --> 00:02:44.785
used to. And maybe, and maybe I'm wrong there.
00:02:45.025 --> 00:02:48.645
It's easy to get caught up in TikToks. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, you know.
00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:52.280
Guilty of that sometimes too i would actually say weirdly enough
00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.440
in the last three to four years i have
00:02:55.440 --> 00:02:58.140
read more paper books than i
00:02:58.140 --> 00:03:01.280
have my whole life prior and i make it
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.100
really a focus on making sure that
00:03:04.100 --> 00:03:09.280
i read you know paper books and i don't and i don't know why but i swear not
00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.220
only does it push my learning but it's calming it's like a you know it's where
00:03:13.220 --> 00:03:16.740
i read it i read in the same place all the time do you see when you're talking
00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:19.920
about this air distraction is this something that this is not just about students,
00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:21.860
but like, how do we deal with this as adults?
00:03:21.940 --> 00:03:24.160
Like, how do you see that in that connection?
00:03:24.700 --> 00:03:28.200
Yeah, you know, it's a pretty wild phenomenon what's happened to all of us.
00:03:28.300 --> 00:03:31.840
There's actually this consultant, Linda Stone, she's very famous,
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.620
worked with Google, Apple, Microsoft, and she coined a term for what we're all
00:03:36.620 --> 00:03:37.760
feeling right now, George.
00:03:38.140 --> 00:03:42.660
And it's called continuous partial attention, where we give a little bit of
00:03:42.660 --> 00:03:45.880
attention to a lot of things all day long.
00:03:45.900 --> 00:03:50.960
And even when we don't have that, device around us, our brain still kind of
00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:53.640
works that way of giving a little bit of
Load full transcript
attention.
00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:58.280
So reading is really, it's not just exercise for the brain, but it's also very
00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:03.620
calming in getting us out of that CPA because it's deep work, right?
00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:07.900
So it would be like playing a sport would get it out of that, right?
00:04:07.980 --> 00:04:10.080
Like there's a lot of things that we can do to get us out of it,
00:04:10.160 --> 00:04:13.540
but that continuous partial attention is something we're all dealing with, kids and adults alike.
00:04:13.540 --> 00:04:16.260
Well you know that's like i was saying about
00:04:16.260 --> 00:04:19.040
this i i've always dealt and one of
00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.020
the chapters i was engaging in an anxious world you know
00:04:22.020 --> 00:04:24.920
i aj knows this about me probably better
00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:27.860
than anyone you cannot talk to me until a certain time of the day because i
00:04:27.860 --> 00:04:33.140
work out and like i just don't i don't look at my phone and one of the things
00:04:33.140 --> 00:04:36.620
i'm very cognizant of i don't even check i don't check my email i don't check
00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:41.840
any social media because it can totally set me in a totally different way And
00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:42.820
then once I'm done the workout,
00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:45.340
I feel like way better dealing with that too.
00:04:45.520 --> 00:04:48.080
And I'm, I think it's almost like I'm training myself.
00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:51.020
There's almost a time. Do you remember that the iPod shuffle,
00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:53.660
the little tiny thing, and you just clip it on.
00:04:53.780 --> 00:04:57.280
And I just, I felt like I worked out way better then. Cause I never was like,
00:04:57.380 --> 00:05:00.880
I should check my email on my iPod shuffle. Do you know what I mean?
00:05:01.443 --> 00:05:04.343
Right. Yeah. It was just, it had basically a bunch of songs.
00:05:04.363 --> 00:05:07.903
You couldn't even, you couldn't even like pick the song.
00:05:08.063 --> 00:05:11.223
It was literally called the shuffle and you just, you could press it in order,
00:05:11.343 --> 00:05:13.643
whatever order it was you downloaded or it would shuffle.
00:05:14.123 --> 00:05:16.663
And it's just like, whatever song is coming on, it's coming on.
00:05:16.723 --> 00:05:22.283
So you better be picky because it's like 84 songs, which is like amazing. 84 songs.
00:05:23.043 --> 00:05:27.143
Right. People would laugh at how ridiculous that is, but it was like so few.
00:05:27.143 --> 00:05:30.003
Too so like how you know when you when you say this like
00:05:30.003 --> 00:05:32.703
i like i'm curious about this personally like the
00:05:32.703 --> 00:05:35.363
chapter on engaging in an anxious world how do
00:05:35.363 --> 00:05:38.723
you how do you like how would you talk about that with students you know staff
00:05:38.723 --> 00:05:42.363
like what is that that focus there because that's something i really definitely
00:05:42.363 --> 00:05:47.583
deal with yeah you know that chapter is a lot about jonathan hates anxious generation
00:05:47.583 --> 00:05:53.923
book i got questions more questions coming up right away you know i i i get
00:05:53.923 --> 00:05:55.223
to work with people around the country.
00:05:55.663 --> 00:05:58.523
And that book has been a very big topic. So I wanted to address it,
00:05:58.623 --> 00:05:59.643
at least in one of my chapters.
00:06:00.103 --> 00:06:04.463
And the thing is, research can go both ways. So I think when that book came
00:06:04.463 --> 00:06:07.103
out, I read the first three chapters, I was very scared.
00:06:07.263 --> 00:06:11.903
I saw a lot of the research that he was bringing about self-harm,
00:06:12.183 --> 00:06:16.303
mental health, all these different types of things that were happening to our
00:06:16.303 --> 00:06:18.683
youth and really correlated with
00:06:19.115 --> 00:06:22.135
overuse of a phone or that kind of continuous partial attention.
00:06:22.315 --> 00:06:26.095
But when you dig into the research, a couple of things actually pops up.
00:06:26.235 --> 00:06:29.955
Number one, a lot of folks were saying, this is a lot of correlation.
00:06:30.235 --> 00:06:34.735
There's other things that are happening here. And the other piece is that you
00:06:34.735 --> 00:06:36.475
really can't blame the kids for it.
00:06:36.775 --> 00:06:41.635
That's my starting point for all this, George, is you can't blame the kids.
00:06:41.835 --> 00:06:45.075
We're the ones buying them the devices, giving
00:06:45.075 --> 00:06:47.935
them access to these platforms and so
00:06:47.935 --> 00:06:50.755
the adults the tech companies like the
00:06:50.755 --> 00:06:54.315
regulations that the governments have right these are
00:06:54.315 --> 00:06:59.435
much better places to to blame though right jonathan just just to kind of put
00:06:59.435 --> 00:07:03.995
this there's this jonathan height this is this is why i can't get over okay
00:07:03.995 --> 00:07:09.715
and this is my little i don't i'm sure he's a nice gentleman right the guy posts
00:07:09.715 --> 00:07:13.275
on social media every single day and post nonstop.
00:07:13.275 --> 00:07:16.395
It's like about how we shouldn't be on our phones or on social media.
00:07:16.775 --> 00:07:20.855
And like, he talks about kids and I'm like, this guy has made a ton of money.
00:07:21.535 --> 00:07:27.335
He's started a social movement by using devices and social media.
00:07:28.135 --> 00:07:31.375
And, but to tell people not to use it. Whereas if I felt like,
00:07:31.455 --> 00:07:34.535
Hey, I did this thing, but I don't want anyone else to do this thing.
00:07:34.615 --> 00:07:36.375
Cause only I'm smart enough to do this thing.
00:07:36.555 --> 00:07:39.915
Like, it's kind of like, like, Hey, if you really think it's so bad, don't
00:07:39.915 --> 00:07:42.875
have your phone on don't have your book on kindle don't be using
social
00:07:42.875 --> 00:07:46.015
media every single day because like i i i i
00:07:46.015 --> 00:07:48.955
connect with you i think it's like how are we as
00:07:48.955 --> 00:07:51.715
adults modeling this to our kids not just
00:07:51.715 --> 00:07:57.355
saying oh those darn kids right you know like they shouldn't be using it but
00:07:57.355 --> 00:08:01.035
like i'm watching how people talk on social media to each other i'm watching
00:08:01.035 --> 00:08:05.735
more adult anxiety like how what what is like what is that step you know for
00:08:05.735 --> 00:08:09.115
adults to kind of model this because i i I agree with you.
00:08:09.275 --> 00:08:12.455
It's like, the kids are going to follow what we say.
00:08:12.615 --> 00:08:17.515
And you know, what they see is like a lot of owning the other political side
00:08:17.515 --> 00:08:18.515
and all this other stuff.
00:08:18.635 --> 00:08:22.095
And I think it's like, wow, this is, we, if this was two kids talking like this,
00:08:22.255 --> 00:08:24.515
we'd suspend them, but because it's adults, we cheer them on.
00:08:25.035 --> 00:08:28.815
Yeah. And you think about like what we're, what we're modeling for kids,
00:08:28.995 --> 00:08:33.895
how they see adults interacting as you're saying, but also just the fact that
00:08:33.895 --> 00:08:35.515
it's a part of our everyday lives.
00:08:35.635 --> 00:08:39.575
There's this big study done. There's a whole Freakonomics podcast episode that
00:08:39.575 --> 00:08:40.895
I'll give to you to put in the show notes.
00:08:41.175 --> 00:08:44.795
And basically, here's what happened in the study, George. They took all these
00:08:44.795 --> 00:08:50.875
high school and college kids and they said, how much would we have to pay you
00:08:50.875 --> 00:08:53.695
to get rid of social media for a month? How much do you think it was?
00:08:54.710 --> 00:08:57.650
I don't know, $10,000? No, it was much less, right?
00:08:57.790 --> 00:09:03.210
It was anywhere between $50 to $300 that they would have to pay them to get
00:09:03.210 --> 00:09:04.290
rid of it a month. Per month?
00:09:04.730 --> 00:09:08.090
Per month, yeah. They're like, oh, we can get rid of it for a month. That's a deal.
00:09:08.630 --> 00:09:12.590
But something happened when they turned the research study on its head.
00:09:13.030 --> 00:09:17.550
They said, well, how much would we have to pay you if not only did you get rid
00:09:17.550 --> 00:09:20.930
of social media, but all your friends, family, everybody you know also got rid
00:09:20.930 --> 00:09:25.670
of social media for a month. and the kids actually said they would pay $30 of
00:09:25.670 --> 00:09:27.970
their own money for that. Right.
00:09:28.670 --> 00:09:32.710
And so when you think about it, it's literally Maslow's hierarchy. It's belonging.
00:09:33.090 --> 00:09:37.150
This is how kids belong. My daughter's 16 years old.
00:09:37.170 --> 00:09:41.210
If I take that device away from her, she loses some of her belonging.
00:09:42.110 --> 00:09:45.930
That is what is the really important thing here at play.
00:09:46.630 --> 00:09:50.770
And so when we talk about kids and adults being anxious, It's a much bigger
00:09:50.770 --> 00:09:53.230
picture than just, oh, we're addicted to our phones.
00:09:54.070 --> 00:09:56.510
Yeah. Like, I'm curious what you think of this too, because I'm always,
00:09:56.670 --> 00:09:59.310
we are so overemphasized on collaboration.
00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:03.910
And what I mean by that is that if I don't actually have any time independently
00:10:03.910 --> 00:10:09.050
to think, to concentrate, to kind of bring, what, what, what can I contribute to a group?
00:10:09.230 --> 00:10:11.770
Right. Like if you're always jumping to the group immediately,
00:10:11.790 --> 00:10:14.230
is that something that you talk about in this book?
00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:16.930
Like, you know, having that time for reflection, having that,
00:10:17.010 --> 00:10:21.210
that space to, you know, really deeply think about what you are doing,
00:10:21.210 --> 00:10:24.130
how you can help others. How does that look?
00:10:25.010 --> 00:10:30.030
Yeah. I mean, it's so important in the same way that when you work out and exercise,
00:10:30.450 --> 00:10:33.530
you're actually being able to be reflective, right?
00:10:33.690 --> 00:10:38.530
That's your time you're thinking or when you're reading or you're spending time listening to music.
00:10:38.790 --> 00:10:43.850
These are all great opportunities to give kids. And I actually agree with Haight's
00:10:43.850 --> 00:10:46.150
last recommendation, which is- Because you play more.
00:10:46.851 --> 00:10:51.671
We need more free play and independence. He actually says the reason the first
00:10:51.671 --> 00:10:54.911
three things that he talks about with a phone-free childhood are impacting us
00:10:54.911 --> 00:10:57.831
is because we're getting rid of that free play and independence.
00:10:58.091 --> 00:11:03.671
So we need to bring that back. It's a very big part of growing up and maturing
00:11:03.671 --> 00:11:07.451
and thinking about things, as you said, and it's something we need to do more of as educators.
00:11:07.711 --> 00:11:10.931
There's a chart you have in the book, and it's education at a crossroads.
00:11:10.971 --> 00:11:14.811
And you talk about the error of distraction, and you have challenge versus opportunity.
00:11:15.151 --> 00:11:19.271
And for example, but one of them is kids don't pay attention is the challenge
00:11:19.271 --> 00:11:21.731
and the opportunity is to move away from compliance.
00:11:21.991 --> 00:11:25.171
I think that's like a big theme throughout your books is that like,
00:11:25.291 --> 00:11:28.931
are we creating, you know, you know, when you're, so one of the things I'm now
00:11:28.931 --> 00:11:30.691
seeing, and I knew this was going to start happening.
00:11:31.191 --> 00:11:34.071
Hey, we like kids can't have their phones. And I think
it's like when we,
00:11:34.191 --> 00:11:38.651
when you try to black and white solution, a very nuanced problem,
00:11:38.811 --> 00:11:40.531
I think that's when you get into trouble, right?
00:11:40.631 --> 00:11:44.011
Cause it's just, it's going to be pendulum swinging back and forth,
00:11:44.011 --> 00:11:46.831
but it's like, now it's
00:11:46.831 --> 00:11:49.671
now it's like we shouldn't even have computers in
00:11:49.671 --> 00:11:52.471
the classroom like that shouldn't be there too
00:11:52.471 --> 00:11:55.391
like that i knew that was coming i could see that
00:11:55.391 --> 00:12:00.471
that writing on the wall and it's like what that's
00:12:00.471 --> 00:12:03.251
where i'm like looking at this it's almost like
00:12:03.251 --> 00:12:06.091
we're not moving away from compliance it's almost we're like
00:12:06.091 --> 00:12:08.831
going to it we're like how do
00:12:08.831 --> 00:12:11.991
we get kids just to sit in rows you know
00:12:11.991 --> 00:12:14.791
do their curse of i don't know and maybe i'm
00:12:14.791 --> 00:12:17.831
wrong like like is that something you're seeing is
00:12:17.831 --> 00:12:20.571
happening it's like we're like trying to
00:12:20.571 --> 00:12:25.451
like hold on to something you're like how about this i'm sure you hear this
00:12:25.451 --> 00:12:29.791
oh we are after covid we are not going back to away school kind of looks like
00:12:29.791 --> 00:12:34.151
you're going back 10 years yes is there some of that is there some of that like
00:12:34.151 --> 00:12:38.531
and i i'm not saying and i'm not saying all schools some schools are doing some
00:12:38.531 --> 00:12:40.311
amazing stuff, things I could not believe.
00:12:41.271 --> 00:12:43.851
We're both working with Forney ISD.
00:12:45.071 --> 00:12:50.411
I say to them, this is the embodiment of what I pictured in innovators mindset
00:12:50.411 --> 00:12:52.591
and where we can go with kids.
00:12:52.911 --> 00:12:56.051
And you're seeing kids have lots of different opportunities.
00:12:56.151 --> 00:12:59.771
It's not a very compliance focus, but it's not like compliance isn't a thing in our world.
00:12:59.911 --> 00:13:04.451
But if the goal is compliance, that's where the issue is. So how do you frame
00:13:04.451 --> 00:13:06.671
this idea of challenge versus opportunity?
00:13:06.871 --> 00:13:09.371
Because some people are like, no we should just have kids sitting and rolls
00:13:09.371 --> 00:13:13.951
doing that stuff too but it's like I really believe kids should know the basics
00:13:13.951 --> 00:13:17.011
they should know them but to go further not just for the sake of knowing the basics.
00:13:17.801 --> 00:13:23.561
Yeah, that is really, I think, the hill that I'm standing on in this book is
00:13:23.561 --> 00:13:28.381
that merely eliminating distractions doesn't solve the engagement problem.
00:13:28.681 --> 00:13:33.441
Right. So we see all this research that has come out from countries like France.
00:13:33.741 --> 00:13:35.381
The BBC just came out with a report.
00:13:35.861 --> 00:13:38.841
The New York Times just had a whole op-ed that came out that basically said
00:13:38.841 --> 00:13:44.521
all of these opportunities to get rid of technology, I think,
00:13:44.661 --> 00:13:48.601
were a little bit misguided in the sense that it didn't improve engagement.
00:13:49.341 --> 00:13:53.141
Maybe it improved kids being off tasks on their device and teachers kind of
00:13:53.141 --> 00:13:56.941
fighting that problem, but it didn't improve engagement. So what are we after?
00:13:57.201 --> 00:14:00.761
Are we after compliance? Because, of course, if we got rid of all the technology
00:14:00.761 --> 00:14:04.501
in the schools and we just gave worksheets and we just gave PowerPoints and
00:14:04.501 --> 00:14:07.221
lectures and multiple choice tests, kids would be more compliant.
00:14:07.721 --> 00:14:13.201
That's a no-brainer, and that's maybe very easy to do. But if we want to engage
00:14:13.201 --> 00:14:16.221
students, if we want high attention, high commitment, like we talk about in
00:14:16.221 --> 00:14:20.441
our book that the Schlechti Center for Engaging is a fine, then we have to do
00:14:20.441 --> 00:14:22.101
things that are actually meaningful and relevant.
00:14:22.541 --> 00:14:26.601
And so this whole challenge is an opportunity. I mean, if kids aren't paying
00:14:26.601 --> 00:14:30.101
attention, then we got to move away from compliance because compliance is the
00:14:30.101 --> 00:14:34.321
reason that they're not paying attention because there's nothing in it for them.
00:14:34.321 --> 00:14:37.221
Let me ask you a question, George. This is something I talk about in the book. All right?
00:14:38.081 --> 00:14:44.601
When you were growing up, you probably had a lot of adults around you that were
00:14:44.601 --> 00:14:50.061
telling you that the best chance you had at success was to do well in school,
00:14:50.201 --> 00:14:51.681
pay attention in school, do your homework,
00:14:52.161 --> 00:14:55.001
get good grades, go to university, go get a good job.
00:14:55.341 --> 00:14:57.461
Don't talk. Right? Yeah.
00:14:58.141 --> 00:15:02.921
You hear that? Everybody heard that, right? Yeah. My kids today and all of our
00:15:02.921 --> 00:15:08.321
kids in our schools on their phones, they literally like I follow thousands
00:15:08.321 --> 00:15:11.981
of people that make hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Yep.
00:15:12.868 --> 00:15:17.508
Putting makeup on, playing video games, doing dances. So to tell them that is
00:15:17.508 --> 00:15:21.588
the reason to be compliant in school, it's gone. The reason is over.
00:15:21.888 --> 00:15:25.708
The carrots and sticks don't work anymore. Of course, for some kids,
00:15:25.768 --> 00:15:29.248
they work for my 16-year-old daughter who wants to go to a big college that works.
00:15:29.328 --> 00:15:31.648
But for the rest of my kids, it doesn't anymore.
00:15:31.968 -->
00:15:35.608
I remember you and I did a keynote together.
00:15:35.848 --> 00:15:39.328
And one of the things you said in your keynote kind of stuck with me is that
00:15:39.328 --> 00:15:40.948
if you had AI, would you cheat?
00:15:40.948 --> 00:15:44.548
And like everyone was super guilty immediately
00:15:44.548 --> 00:15:47.488
and i built on that a little bit i said
00:15:47.488 --> 00:15:50.628
here's how i know you would and you
00:15:50.628 --> 00:15:53.368
can prove it did you look at the the answers in
00:15:53.368 --> 00:15:59.228
the back of the math textbook right and so if you looked in the back it's not
00:15:59.228 --> 00:16:02.168
because you wanted to cheat it's because you didn't see the relevance and the
00:16:02.168 --> 00:16:06.328
importance of learning so this is not new but it is like it's it's something
00:16:06.328 --> 00:16:10.748
we always want people to see relevance to it but it's changed our society has
00:16:10.748 --> 00:16:11.808
changed significantly.
00:16:12.188 --> 00:16:14.828
So what relevance, as you said, you know, kids are seeing, hey,
00:16:14.848 --> 00:16:17.068
these people are really successful doing some different things.
00:16:17.488 --> 00:16:21.028
So, so if you are, people are picking up this book, what's like the,
00:16:21.168 --> 00:16:26.368
what's the big hope in how you can help, you know, find that relevance in their classroom?
00:16:26.928 --> 00:16:32.208
Yeah. I think the big hope is that we have to tap into what we already know as educators.
00:16:32.848 --> 00:16:37.388
I asked everybody that's listening to this, what was your best learning experience as a student?
00:16:38.008 --> 00:16:44.408
What was your best teaching experience as a teacher? No one would say worksheet, textbook, test.
00:16:44.588 --> 00:16:48.128
No one would say that. So we already inherently know. Yep.
00:16:48.752 --> 00:16:53.532
That meaningful and relevant works to engage kids. The issue is we've had this
00:16:53.532 --> 00:16:57.772
system problem for so long where we have to do things a certain way,
00:16:57.932 --> 00:16:59.032
cover things a certain way.
00:16:59.312 --> 00:17:04.372
What I'm hoping is that this era of distraction, kids not paying attention,
00:17:04.592 --> 00:17:07.472
apathy at an all-time high, we know that from everything we're seeing,
00:17:07.892 --> 00:17:12.252
and AI, artificial intelligence coming in and basically being able to do all
00:17:12.252 --> 00:17:15.432
the compliance-based tasks that we're asking kids to do.
00:17:16.232 --> 00:17:20.812
Hopefully shutters in a new pathway to say, all right, I actually want to focus
00:17:20.812 --> 00:17:22.272
on engagement. How do I get there?
00:17:22.452 --> 00:17:25.192
Well, I have to do things that are relevant. I have to do things that are meaningful.
00:17:25.392 --> 00:17:29.292
It doesn't mean that we skip the fundamentals, because fundamentals are very
00:17:29.292 --> 00:17:34.212
meaningful and relevant to a grade two, grade three, grade four kid.
00:17:34.632 --> 00:17:40.152
But when they get to six, seventh and on up, we have to tie that into what they're doing.
00:17:40.392 --> 00:17:46.132
And I think if we don't, then we run the risk of really living like that blockbuster
00:17:46.132 --> 00:17:51.532
Netflix analogy, thinking that we're doing and following a path that is not going to be successful.
00:17:51.772 --> 00:17:56.592
And that's a really important point is that, and I'm guilty of this,
00:17:56.652 --> 00:18:00.472
and I've brought this up several times, is that I often talk about the aspirational,
00:18:00.672 --> 00:18:03.212
but I haven't focused on the foundational.
00:18:03.532 --> 00:18:06.952
And it's because it's assumed. Of course, we want kids to be able to read and write.
00:18:07.112 --> 00:18:10.112
But then a lot of families, they just hear the aspirational,
00:18:10.472 --> 00:18:12.012
aspirational. And they're like, well, my kid can't write.
00:18:12.432 --> 00:18:14.932
And it's like, oh, no, no, no, we're this, we're addressing that.
00:18:15.052 --> 00:18:19.712
And it's, I remember Yang Jiao saying this and just paraphrasing what I heard
00:18:19.712 --> 00:18:23.132
said, reading and writing should be the floor, not the ceiling.
00:18:23.432 --> 00:18:28.652
And, you know, the ceiling has grown. I think also tapping into pain points
00:18:28.652 --> 00:18:32.012
and, you know, like what is something we see can be really powerful.
00:18:32.052 --> 00:18:34.672
And I'll give you an example of this. I did this in a workshop. I.
00:18:37.382 --> 00:18:42.762
And, you know, there's like, should we use AI, this kind of back and forth, et cetera.
00:18:43.302 --> 00:18:46.722
And I, and I've talked about this, like the first thing, let's talk about some
00:18:46.722 --> 00:18:48.282
of the negatives of this. Cause there's a ton, right.
00:18:48.402 --> 00:18:50.962
But what are some of the good opportunities? But then if you see personal value
00:18:50.962 --> 00:18:55.222
to it, it will, then you'll see the value in, in teaching it to kids.
00:18:55.802 --> 00:19:00.442
So I just said, I just kind of like off the cuff and everything I do is intentional,
00:19:00.842 --> 00:19:04.402
even though it looks off the cuff is I said, one of the things I did was look
00:19:04.402 --> 00:19:08.642
at how, you know, cause I'm new to the U S. I don't really understand the investing rules.
00:19:08.662 --> 00:19:11.122
I don't understand the tax system here.
00:19:11.342 --> 00:19:13.642
So I just threw in the AI, hey, this is what I do.
00:19:13.882 --> 00:19:17.222
This is, you know, I want to have this much money by the time I retire.
00:19:17.562 --> 00:19:22.202
Can you like give me a tax incentivized plan? And it just laid it out and I
00:19:22.202 --> 00:19:24.562
started figuring this out and it told me, here's how you'd make this.
00:19:24.822 --> 00:19:27.902
So a bunch of like teachers in that room. And I said, yeah,
like I wouldn't
00:19:27.902 --> 00:19:32.842
want a kid to be like 20 years into a profession and say, I don't really want
00:19:32.842 --> 00:19:36.842
to do this anymore, but I've got 10 more years to go to my pension.
00:19:36.942 --> 00:19:40.202
So I'm sticking with a job because I'm trying to get there and a pension that might not be great.
00:19:40.742 --> 00:19:44.342
And so I'm like, I know what I'm doing. I'm tweaking a little bit. Right.
00:19:45.082 --> 00:19:49.362
So all of these people that are like against it, I'm watching them open up their
00:19:49.362 --> 00:19:53.142
computer and they start going like, I want to do that. Like,
00:19:53.242 --> 00:19:54.902
what's, what do I do? How do I invest?
00:19:55.122 --> 00:19:58.002
Blah, blah, blah. And kind of going through it. So now all of a sudden they
00:19:58.002 --> 00:19:59.342
see it's valuable to them.
00:20:00.042 --> 00:20:02.902
And now they're more likely to teach it. And right. And it's not like,
00:20:03.022 --> 00:20:05.662
not everything is about making money and stuff like this, but I know this is an issue.
00:20:05.662 --> 00:20:09.362
Like I know, you know, in profession, teachers don't get paid,
00:20:09.582 --> 00:20:13.822
you know, what, what they deserve and they feel kind of, some people feel stuck
00:20:13.822 --> 00:20:15.182
that they can't get out of it.
00:20:15.322 --> 00:20:18.842
And we talk a lot about, you know, intergenerational poverty,
00:20:18.842 --> 00:20:21.202
but then we don't actually teach kids themselves.
00:20:21.402 --> 00:20:23.902
Cause I think that was the main point is like, how do you teach a kid?
00:20:24.122 --> 00:20:26.802
Because the best time to invest is when you're like, you know,
00:20:26.982 --> 00:20:32.102
zero years old, not, not when you're 60, that's a terrible, like it's too late.
00:20:32.102 --> 00:20:36.962
And maybe not too late, but like, do you, if you, so it wasn't just about AI,
00:20:36.962 --> 00:20:40.582
it's like, Hey, I want you to understand this so that we don't have kids getting
00:20:40.582 --> 00:20:44.002
into the same situation that a lot of adults are because they never saw what
00:20:44.002 --> 00:20:45.422
this could actually look like over time.
00:20:45.522 --> 00:20:48.942
And AI can actually help you do this. So how do you like help,
00:20:49.182 --> 00:20:51.962
you know, see that when you're, when you're doing some new things,
00:20:52.182 --> 00:20:55.642
how do you help, you know, the adults see the relevance for themselves so they're
00:20:55.642 --> 00:20:57.882
more likely to pass it down to the kids?
00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:03.899
If you think about your example there, what you're saying, it gets to the point
00:21:03.899 --> 00:21:09.359
where if we think about our own curriculum that we have to teach and the way that we're teaching it.
00:21:10.099 --> 00:21:13.619
Standards is kind of like the blueprint of a house.
00:21:14.199 --> 00:21:19.079
But then as teachers, we get to
be the interior designers, the landscapers.
00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:25.239
That is that art of teaching. And so what I show people is, if you can use artificial
00:21:25.239 --> 00:21:29.179
intelligence to help you with that art of teaching to connect better with your
00:21:29.179 --> 00:21:30.099
students, why wouldn't you?
00:21:30.419 --> 00:21:35.179
Why wouldn't you find ways to make it more meaningful and relevant when you're
00:21:35.179 --> 00:21:39.819
talking about fractions or long division or some science lab or something along
00:21:39.819 --> 00:21:43.999
those lines? And that should be something as, I think, a path.
00:21:44.299 --> 00:21:47.099
Every single time we're designing a lesson or activity, we should be asking,
00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:49.199
how is this meaningful and relevant for kids?
00:21:49.459 --> 00:21:56.079
And you talked about one time, is this helping kids want to continue to learn?
00:21:56.739 --> 00:22:01.739
Does this still foster learning after I do this activity, or does it halt it?
00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:03.639
And that's such a good place to start from.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.719
And that's where these tools can really help. Because a lot of times that takes
00:22:06.719 --> 00:22:10.199
a whole lot of time to figure out. And now we have an assistant that can help us.
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.079
There's actually, I started doing this recently and I'm sure,
00:22:14.199 --> 00:22:18.719
I know you've been doing this stuff way longer than I have, is like,
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.799
I'll say like, hey, can you like do this for me?
00:22:21.959 --> 00:22:24.139
I'll throw that in AI. But now I'm like.
00:22:25.013 --> 00:22:28.993
Okay, why did you do that? Like, why explain this to me so I can kind of understand
00:22:28.993 --> 00:22:31.153
instead of just like, because maybe it's wrong.
00:22:31.273 --> 00:22:35.793
Maybe, you know, I want, I actually don't want to, I don't want just the what,
00:22:35.793 --> 00:22:39.173
I want to know why you did what you did. So I can kind of understand it and
00:22:39.173 --> 00:22:42.373
I might still leverage it to, like, I'll give you an example.
00:22:42.493 --> 00:22:43.533
I just wrote a post about this.
00:22:44.113 --> 00:22:47.913
I hate doing blog titles. I'm just like the worst for it. So I'll write a post
00:22:47.913 --> 00:22:50.293
and say, what are some suggestions? And then it's like, here it is.
00:22:50.393 --> 00:22:51.393
I'm like, that's actually pretty good.
00:22:51.513 --> 00:22:54.773
Why did you pick that? And then it like told me about like, here's the hook,
00:22:54.773 --> 00:22:58.193
here's this i'm like oh like there's like a
00:22:58.193 --> 00:23:00.833
science behind this right and it was just kind of interesting and i
00:23:00.833 --> 00:23:03.733
actually like shared those results and i
00:23:03.733 --> 00:23:06.413
think that's something that's really powerful is that you can not just get
00:23:06.413 --> 00:23:10.993
it
to do stuff for you you're right it's like hey i want to understand why this
00:23:10.993 --> 00:23:15.293
is doing it this way because you know we might have access to this we might
00:23:15.293 --> 00:23:20.413
not i don't know but i want to understand and like that is but some people are
00:23:20.413 --> 00:23:23.453
like well i don't write blogs well yeah i'm not saying about blogs i'm saying
00:23:23.453 --> 00:23:24.493
about anything like hey hey,
00:23:24.953 --> 00:23:27.793
why did you, like I asked for this, why did you do this?
00:23:28.393 --> 00:23:33.753
Like how do we stoke that curiosity? So this book is now out, okay?
00:23:34.313 --> 00:23:37.133
Give your like one minute pitch why people should pick it up.
00:23:37.613 --> 00:23:39.713
I think the big reason you should
00:23:39.713 --> 00:23:43.413
pick up this book is this is the battle we're all fighting right now.
00:23:43.513 --> 00:23:48.393
The battle of attention, the battle of understanding what it actually means to engage.
00:23:48.653 --> 00:23:53.313
And unlike other books, this actually has a ton of research on the past five
00:23:53.313 --> 00:23:56.933
years. So I've pulled in all these different research and studies from the past
00:23:56.933 --> 00:24:00.093
five years that are very relevant to what we're going through right now.
00:24:00.393 --> 00:24:06.573
Every book has a story in it, actual steps, and real things you can do with
00:24:06.573 --> 00:24:09.713
your students or your staff if you're a school leader.
00:24:10.233 --> 00:24:14.113
Plus, we have a lot of fun in it as well. It's going to kind of keep you engaged
00:24:14.113 --> 00:24:17.413
and moving and talk about some things that I know that you're interested in.
00:24:17.813 --> 00:24:22.273
The big reason I would say to buy this book, or at least check it out, is...
00:24:23.051 --> 00:24:28.091
Right now, you as a teacher, when you find meaning and relevance in your work,
00:24:28.171 --> 00:24:30.091
it automatically makes it better for students.
00:24:30.291 --> 00:24:32.931
The same thing as a school leader, same thing for every adult.
00:24:33.111 --> 00:24:36.851
And so just to tap into that yourself as well and kind of think through some
00:24:36.851 --> 00:24:38.331
of these things will be really helpful.
00:24:38.651 --> 00:24:41.791
And this is the thing I know about you and something I really believe in as well.
00:24:41.991 --> 00:24:44.271
Of course, you're going to have like strategies, you're going to have some ideas
00:24:44.271 --> 00:24:47.651
here. But it's also about a personal journey that you figure your own stuff
00:24:47.651 --> 00:24:49.971
out because I don't want to be told what to do.
00:24:50.251 --> 00:24:54.371
Right. And I think it's like, here's like the fix. And, and I think,
00:24:54.451 --> 00:24:58.811
like I said, I'm not, we have so many nuanced issues in society,
00:24:58.811 --> 00:25:03.211
in education to just say, if you do these five things, it will fix the problem.
00:25:03.471 --> 00:25:06.991
I don't know your class. You don't know the community that you know, who's reading this.
00:25:07.291 --> 00:25:10.311
It's really like ultimately empowering people that, you know,
00:25:10.391 --> 00:25:13.231
are reading this book to kind of learn how to figure out their own way forward.
00:25:13.351 --> 00:25:15.511
So I encourage you to get the book.
00:25:15.671 --> 00:25:21.811
It is now available titled meaningful, relevant, engaging learners in an era of distraction.
00:25:22.271 --> 00:25:27.111
If you made it all the way through this podcast because you weren't distracted, kudos to you.
00:25:27.611 --> 00:25:31.131
But thanks, JJ. I'm looking forward to, you know, probably see you in a couple
00:25:31.131 --> 00:25:32.131
months when you have a new buck out.
00:25:32.791 --> 00:25:36.631
Yeah, no, thanks, George. Can't wait to be on for a sixth time.
00:25:36.951 --> 00:25:40.771
And I got to just keep an eye on when Laney's on next. All right.
00:25:41.751 --> 00:25:43.471
Hey, thanks everyone for listening. Have a wonderful day.